Centism, is it a thing

[tovaris]

So recently some people have tried to convince me one can hold 0 ideology (Miro Cerar) and yet stil be a valid oponent on th political feed. A so called centrist.
I however do not buy into this. Since even 0 left right parties such as single issues usualy desolve to left and right.
And with the such a spefified aray of ideology grupations, from libretarians to anarcho capitalist, i truly believe ech persons ideology can be further grouped into the simplest, right or left.

Oakheart Vlerchan

[Babs]

whut

It doesn't make any sense to try to group people into either one of two extremes, or to claim that there is nothing in between, because it's not really that simple.

[Kahn]

Centrism is a thing, yes.

Personally, my political stances are 'center' because I like to use all the information at my disposal, and my own pragmatism and ability to find a solution, that works for the greatest amount of people, not one specific group or the other. I refuse to make a decision because the talking heads of the 'left' or 'right' tell me it's what's right, or that something's wrong.

Just because an individual identifies with a political ideology, doesn't mean he or she has to behave a certain way. Political ideology doesn't have to dictate each facet of your life, each thought, each feeling.

I'm an independent because I dislike the idea of political parties, and don't actively associate with any in my country. In some areas, my beliefs or feelings may be considered conservative. In other areas, my beliefs or feelings may be considered liberal.

[lyhom]

"centism" probably isn't a thing

centrism probably is though

[phuckphace]

being hard-left or hard-right is stupid because both ends of the spectrum have their good ideas and really terrible ones too

I don't consider myself a centrist but I take the centrist's view of a pragmatic approach, borrowing the good ideas from both sides.

[Dalton_Holt]

Many people are socially left and fiscally right. This is usually more associated with the libertarian party. But it is actually a bit unnatural for someone to be completely "left" or "right." You can't just split all of humanity's views intro two separate words. Don't worry about about the left right spectrum just believe in what to think is right angle think for yourself.

[tovaris]

whut

It doesn't make any sense to try to group people into either one of two extremes, or to claim that there is nothing in between, because it's not really that simple.

Have you read the original post where i talk about peoples individual ideology and how that can be further grouped... It is not two extremes, left and right are two weary wide sides of the political specter, that's like saying it makes no sense to divide the specter of visible light into colours...

"centism" probably isn't a thing

centrism probably is though

sieg heil the grammar Nazi

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/639/Grammar-Nazi-1613.png

Many people are socially left and fiscally right. This is usually more associated with the libertarian party. But it is actually a bit unnatural for someone to be completely "left" or "right." You can't just split all of humanity's views intro two separate words. Don't worry about about the left right spectrum just believe in what to think is right angle think for yourself.

Actually the definition of left and right changes. Since it comes from the times of the french revolution and where who sat in the national assembly. Those who were pro king and those ho wanted an end to the revolution sat on the right while those who wanted the kings head and the revolution to continue sat on the left. Left and right stance actually evolves frew history, and usually means not much more than the sitting position, for let me remind you clubs did change sides during french revolt, because the situation changed (khm Jacobin dictatorship).

being hard-left or hard-right is stupid because both ends of the spectrum have their good ideas and really terrible ones too

I don't consider myself a centrist but I take the centrist's view of a pragmatic approach, borrowing the good ideas from both sides.

I fail to see why people associate left and right divide as something hard and firm, that those on ether side are in extremes. Take your run of the mill social democrat for example, they are weary close to the center division line but still are left, take ameri democrats, even closer to center, but on the left....


Centrism is a thing, yes.
/.../


What I see in centrists is people with no spines, who are unable to stand up to Bruxels, and who have no ideas of their own.


/.../
Personally, my political stances are 'center' because I like to use all the information at my disposal, and my own pragmatism and ability to find a solution, that works for the greatest amount of people, not one specific group or the other. I refuse to make a decision because the talking heads of the 'left' or 'right' tell me it's what's right, or that something's wrong.
/.../


And as Homo Sapiens Sapiens, you would be unable to use all the information at your disposal if you were a fascist? It relay is not your decision how your ideology is mapped in the greater sceem of things, historians will make the decision if you are afraid to say something out loud.


/.../
Just because an individual identifies with a political ideology, doesn't mean he or she has to behave a certain way. Political ideology doesn't have to dictate each facet of your life, each thought, each feeling.
/.../


If i were your politkomisar (https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi%C4%8Dni_komisar) you wouldn't be saying that.


/.../
I'm an independent because I dislike the idea of political parties, and don't actively associate with any in my country. In some areas, my beliefs or feelings may be considered conservative. In other areas, my beliefs or feelings may be considered liberal.

You are an american is that correct? You only have elephants and donkeys, while in the democratic world there are shitloads of parties, in Germany a few year ago there was a party whos only promise when ruining for city council was to place a penguin in the local zoo. That is true democracy at work.

[Kahn]

What I see in centrists is people with no spines, who are unable to stand up to Bruxels, and who have no ideas of their own.

Well, we all have opinions. I see in a communist's mentality only savagery, and ignorance.

The difference between you and I is that, when in conversation with an individual I disagree with for opinionated reasons, I try to keep my personal feelings to myself, unless provoked, which you have done a great job of doing thus far into the conversation.

To each his own.

And as Homo Sapiens Sapiens, you would be unable to use all the information at your disposal if you were a fascist?

I phrased that poorly. Of course everyone should attempt to use all the information at their disposal to make the most informed decision, regardless of their political ideology.

I meant to add what Vlerchan has been stressing this entire time, which he kindly explains once again in the latter point of the next post.

It relay is not your decision how your ideology is mapped in the greater sceem of things, historians will make the decision if you are afraid to say something out loud.

Perhaps. That is not my concern. I don't care to identify with any ideolgoy, or party, because my alignment could change at any time, based on new information.

If i were your politkomisar (https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi%C4%8Dni_komisar) you wouldn't be saying that.

Thankfully you're not my politkomisar, you're just some random cretin from the middle of nowhe- Slovenia, who will never impact me or mine on a personal level, or political level.

You are an american is that correct?

I am an American, yes.

you only have elephants and donkeys, while in the democratic world there are shitloads of parties, in Germany a few year ago there was a party whos only promise when ruining for city council was to place a penguin in the local zoo. That is true democracy at work.

I resent the way our current political system is set up, which props up the two major parties and disregards all others. I'm a registered independent because I disagree with the way the major political orginizations operate, and I disagree with their priorities.

[Vlerchan]

I'll add for the most part that centrism is a mindset as opposed to a definable ideological stance. It's a position that see pragmatic politics as drawing together the useful aspects of the political right and the political left.

[Porpoise101]

Apathy towards politics is a type of centrism as people who don't care tend to drift into a middle way of society's two extremes. That is of course they live among those two sides.

[Microcosm]

I always think of a centrist as someone who takes different stances on different things, picking ideas they agree with that are liberal or conservative, but never really deviating into any extremes.

And yes, it is a thing, and probably a very good thing.

[phuckphace]

brb casting a vote for the penguin party

[tovaris]

/.../picking ideas they agree with that are liberal or conservative, but never really deviating into any extremes.
/.../


Here is your problem. Liberal and conservative DO NOT equal left and right. True in the modern world they often coincide, but are defiantly not equal to left and right. For example I personally believe people should not walk around half naked in the street (a conservative stance)

Apathy towards politics is a type of centrism as people who don't care tend to drift into a middle way of society's two extremes. That is of course they live among those two sides.

Apathy towards politics /.../

Exactly, apathy. And most of thees people stay at home during elections. That's why I personally dislike those who claim to be centrist.

I'll add for the most part that centrism is a mindset as opposed to a definable ideological stance. It's a position that see pragmatic politics as drawing together the useful aspects of the political right and the political left.

I personally don't see how someone who is for The International can support the gassing of Jews.

Well, we all have opinions. I see in a communist's mentality only savagery, and ignorance.

The difference between you and I is that, when in conversation with an individual I disagree with for opinionated reasons, I try to keep my personal feelings to myself, unless provoked, which you have done a great job of doing thus far into the conversation.

To each his own.

/.../


Provocation is a great way to kickstart conversations. "God is dead" "Churchil was an idiot" "Italians are inferior" ect. ect.


/.../
I phrased that poorly. Of course everyone should attempt to use all the information at their disposal to make the most informed decision, regardless of their political ideology.

I meant to add what Vlerchan has been stressing this entire time, which he kindly explains once again in the latter point of the next post.
/.../


But as shown in practice politicians and parties who call themselves centrist in fact don't take a single idea, they are bland and useless, they don't hold ground in any matter they don't have a single original idea and don't take a strong stance on anything but the fact of not having ideas.


/.../
Perhaps. That is not my concern. I don't care to identify with any ideolgoy, or party, because my alignment could change at any time, based on new information.
/.../


So? What you want to say is that rather than admit you were wrong down the line you would not be right? Or that making up your mind is stupid because you might have to change it?


/.../
Thankfully you're not my politkomisar, you're just some random cretin from the middle of nowhe- Slovenia, who will never impact me or mine on a personal level, or political level.
/.../


You just hope that statement remains true.


/.../
I am an American, yes.
/.../


Called it.


/.../
I resent the way our current political system is set up, which props up the two major parties and disregards all others. I'm a registered independent because I disagree with the way the major political orginizations operate, and I disagree with their priorities.

So what you are saying you are against democracy, and against letting parties form succeed and die naturally? Typical 'murican.

[Vlerchan]

Liberal and conservative DO NOT equal left and right. True in the modern world they often coincide, but are defiantly not equal to left and right.
Ideological camps are by neccisity broad generalisation.

I personally don't see how someone who is for The International can support the gassing of Jews.
I never claimed all positions were reconcilable.

[tovaris]

Ideological camps are by neccisity broad generalisation.
/.../


Yes but that doesn't mean you can equate liberals with lefts, remember the square?


/.../
I never claimed all positions were reconcilable.

Sooooooo you are saying left and right are not reconcilable?

[Vlerchan]

Yes but that doesn't mean you can equate liberals with lefts, remember the square?
I'm not equating Liberalism with the left. I'm claiming that ideological purism is [edit:] not required to associate with one side or the other and never has been.

Sooooooo you are saying left and right are not reconcilable?
Please note the use of the word 'all' in the previous post.

Though I'm sceptical to what extent that holds still.

[tovaris]

I'm not equating Liberalism with the left. I'm claiming that ideological purism is required to associate with one side or the other and never has been.
/.../


The sentience is westerly structured pleas explain further.


/.../
Please note the use of the word 'all' in the previous post.
/.../


So you want to gas the Jews while giving people a lunch break at work? (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg/396px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg)




/.../
Though I'm sceptical to what extent that holds still.

Elaborate pleas.

[Vlerchan]

The sentience is westerly structured pleas explain further.
In order to fit into an ideological group one doesn't need to hold all the same positions.

So you want to gas the Jews while giving people a lunch break at work.
I'm a crafty one like that.

Elaborate pleas.
You can reconcile a host of positions that might seem to contradict each other.

Being a Communist doesn't preclude being an anti-Semite for example.

[tovaris]

In order to fit into an ideological group one doesn't need to hold all the same positions.
/.../


Erm yes. In order to be say left one doesn't have to agree with IDS (http://www.demokraticni-socializem.si/)s stand on gay rights.
I for example disagree with DeSUS (http://desus.si/), ewen tho they are left.


/.../
I'm a crafty one like that.

/.../

Thats why the irish sided against us in WW2 (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/EKwhfteHMV61yqP3cSvF68JZs0olcOu2idTzVCtP8FA9NKgHO-111cKf4csK-X_Xm_uk8eEFsGVm45TlAdHMcPRuoXzwNZrc_E2e5W3hwc64938kg3WtcTQWOo6w3i6hgA)!


/.../
You can reconcile a host of positions that might seem to contradict each other.
/.../



http://thenewsdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/doublethink.jpg



/.../
Being a Communist doesn't preclude being an anti-Semite for example.

When did communism mean hating Arabs? Internationalism remember...

[Vlerchan]

Thats why the irish sided against us in WW2!
Yes. You've got us now.

When did communism mean hating Arabs? Internationalism remember...
I also never claimed that communism involved anti-Semitism: I said it didn't preclude it.

I was also referring to the Jews. On a more pointed note the Jews aren't recognised as a nation within the Marxist-Leninist paradigm. Edit: Least during WWII.

---

We're also gettong off topic. From this point onwards I'm just going to defend my own conception or centrism.

Edit: In response to the Orwell quotation please note the use of the word 'seem' in the previous post.

[tovaris]

Yes. You've got us now.

/.../


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOtls2ZvjE4



/.../
I also never claimed that communism involved anti-Semitism: I said it didn't preclude it.
/.../


Because why would it?


/.../
I was also referring to the Jews. On a more pointed note the Jews aren't recognised as a nation within the Marxist-Leninist paradigm. Edit: Least during WWII.
/.../


Do you know what a semit is? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people) An anty semit is someone who hates arabs.
I do believe Izrael as a country should be destroied, but i will alwais cindem genocide of civilian populations. Like the anty semitic acts Izrael is commiting.





/.../
We're also gettong off topic. From this point onwards I'm just going to defend my own conception or centrism.
/.../


:offtopic:


/.../

Edit: In response to the Orwell quotation please note the use of the word 'seem' in the previous post.

War and peace might seem different but https://lenvhs.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1984-poster-2.jpg

[Vlerchan]

Because why would it?
Like I said: it doesn't preclude it. Someone might be antisemitic for a whole host of reasons.

This also doesn't make the person a centrist for clarification. That's the reason this is heading off topic.

Do you know what a semit is? An anty semit is someone who hates arabs.
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic, religious, or racial group. A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is widely considered to be a form of racism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

I can also quote English language dictionaries on request.

[Porpoise101]

Ok tovaris, I have a question for you that someone else brought up earlier. Would you consider new thoughts and radical beliefs a revolution? Was the industrial revolution really a revolution according to you?

[tovaris]

Like I said: it doesn't preclude it. Someone might be antisemitic for a whole host of reasons.

This also doesn't make the person a centrist for clarification. That's the reason this is heading off topic.


Antisemitism (also spelled anti-Semitism or anti-semitism) is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic, religious, or racial group. A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is widely considered to be a form of racism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

I can also quote English language dictionaries on request.

I dont think i quote english language definitions did I? Semits are arabs and jews is all im saying.

anywo :offtopic: back to centrism

[Kahn]

Provocation is a great way to kickstart conversations. "God is dead" "Churchil was an idiot" "Italians are inferior" ect. ect.

That doesn't justify the aggressive nature of your posting. It's needless.

But as shown in practice politicians and parties who call themselves centrist in fact don't take a single idea, they are bland and useless,

That is purely opinion, unless you'd like to start citing sources. Off the top of my head I immediately think of Bill Clinton, who impacted American society greatly, despite being a centrist.

They don't hold ground in any matter they don't have a single original idea and don't take a strong stance on anything but the fact of not having ideas.

A centrist, like any other person, has ideas. They're not unthinking, unfeeling robots.


So? What you want to say is that rather than admit you were wrong down the line you would not be right?

No. What I want to say is that if somebody like yourself wants to waste his or her time squabbling over the specific identification of my politcal stances, feel free.

I will not waste my time on something so unimportant as a political label.

Or that making up your mind is stupid because you might have to change it?

Yet another attack on my character. You're a charming person indeed, Ivan.

You just hope that statement remains true.

I'm shaking in my boots.

Called it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o5ybUD0zqvM/UxeuA1Ofp9I/AAAAAAABAt8/G82lXYd5KtA/s1600/19hd1ile09il9gif.gif


So what you are saying you are against democracy, and against letting parties form succeed and die naturally? Typical 'murican.

I'm against affiliating myself with the current establishment. I didn't say I wouldn't align myself with a major party that I feel represents my interests, were it to emerge.

You've got a mind chock full of inaccurate assumptions, and terrible insults, slav. You should work on your manners.

[Microcosm]

Here is your problem. Liberal and conservative DO NOT equal left and right. True in the modern world they often coincide, but are defiantly not equal to left and right. For example I personally believe people should not walk around half naked in the street (a conservative stance)

In America, we tend to refer to hard lefts as liberals and hard rights as conservative. Perhaps it's different where you are. It's a generalization that's become commonplace where I live which influences how I speak about it.

But I see what you're saying and I suppose the clarification is necessary for users not from the U.S. or other areas that don't refer to the political scale in such ways.

[Judean Zealot]

Provocation is a great way to kickstart conversations. "God is dead" "Churchil was an idiot" "Italians are inferior" ect. ect.

Only if one wishes to provoke a discussion on how much of a fool they are.

[tovaris]

In America, we tend to refer to hard lefts as liberals and hard rights as conservative. /.../

There's your problem, sure leftists are more often than not liberal, but it is not a rule, nore is it a decisive factor in drawing the boundry of the two camps.


/.../ Perhaps it's different where you are. It's a generalization that's become commonplace where I live which influences how I speak about it.
/.../


http://www.politisite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/PoliticalSpace.jpg


That doesn't justify the aggressive nature of your posting. It's needless.
/.../


I find that hard to believe.

"Everything happens for a reason"


/.../
That is purely opinion, unless you'd like to start citing sources. Off the top of my head I immediately think of Bill Clinton, who impacted American society greatly, despite being a centrist.
/.../


Hardly opinion. Remember, it is I who live under a centrist regime, and can tell you firsthand what they do.

Exibit A: http://www.strankasmc.si/

Clinton was a fascist stoner who should be hanged.


/.../
A centrist, like any other person, has ideas. They're not unthinking, unfeeling robots.
/.../


Exibit B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHbFzVHJrP0

/.../
No. What I want to say is that if somebody like yourself wants to waste his or her time squabbling over the specific identification of my politcal stances, feel free.

I will not waste my time on something so unimportant as a political label.
/.../

"If you are not with us, you are against us." Ever heard that?
"An enemy of my enemy is my friend." How about that?


/.../
Yet another attack on my character. You're a charming person indeed, Ivan.
/.../


How was that an atack on you caracter? You 'muricans are dawm sensitive even to things that are not directed at you.

Alahu akbar!


/.../
I'm shaking in my boots.
/.../


See you in 20 years when USA in no more. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRrlD-37A21LVhnzIbCDy_A)


/.../
I'm against affiliating myself with the current establishment. I didn't say I wouldn't align myself with a major party that I feel represents my interests, were it to emerge.

You've got a mind chock full of inaccurate assumptions, and terrible insults, slav. You should work on your manners.

If you don't like the curent political oprions, simply form your own party. Thats ho democracy works you know, anyone can start a party and wint the next election. (but than again you live in the undemocratic USA...)

[Kahn]

I find that hard to believe.

"Everything happens for a reason"

Yet another shitty rationalization for your rudeness.

Hardly opinion. Remember, it is I who live under a centrist regime, and can tell you firsthand what they do.

Well, considering that I am a self proclaimed centrist, and you being a vehement proponent against our existence, (so much so that you've made a thread asking if "centrism is actually a thing") I find it odd you actually believe your government is centrist. It must be the only actual centrist regime in the world, according to you.

Exibit A: http://www.strankasmc.si/

Clinton was a fascist stoner who should be hanged.

Purely opinion, yet again. Elegant.

I also like how you're linking me to Slovenian resources, that I know nothing about or have any familiarity with. They have nothing to do with Clinton, either.

"If you are not with us, you are against us." Ever heard that?
"An enemy of my enemy is my friend." How about that?

I am not in line with that train of thought. Sorry.

ow was that an atack on you caracter? You 'muricans are dawm sensitive even to things that are not directed at you.

Alahu akbar!

or that making up your mind is stupid because you might have to change it?

You're calling me stupid because you think I am undoubtedly wrong, and will have to change my way of thought in the imminent future. Yet another ignorant position, on your part.

That is an attack on my character, one that I totally disagree with and will pay no more mind. You're silly, Slav.

I'd like to add that, naturally, everybody is stupid.

See you in 20 years when USA in no more. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRrlD-37A21LVhnzIbCDy_A)

Your link is empty, and you are not threatening. The Untied States will still stand in twenty years. Your fear mongering is pathetic.

If you don't like the curent political oprions, simply form your own party. Thats ho democracy works you know, anyone can start a party and wint the next election. (but than again you live in the undemocratic USA...)

Okay.

[Microcosm]

There's your problem, sure leftists are more often than not liberal, but it is not a rule, nore is it a decisive factor in drawing the boundry of the two camps.

You're reading into this too much. It's not my "problem." I already clarified myself. I know how the political spectrum works generally and I was just generalizing. It's just a way of speech where I live which I have already stated.

People have already answered your question multiple times anyways. Centrism is a thing. People believe it. And your debate ethic isn't very good. I believe a significant number of participants in this thread would agree with me.

ow was that an atack on you caracter? You 'muricans are dawm sensitive even to things that are not directed at you.

Alahu akbar!