Abortions?

[ZACK0]

Hey guys, So today i wanted to know what people think about Abortions

I m Pro-life i think they should make it harder to get an abortion but not illegal i think this is a good idea because obviously some people need abortions

so wht do you guys think?

[Judean Zealot]

The problem with abortion is that you are killing a potential human being, an animal of sorts that is, in a formal sense, a being that exists to the end of producing a person. Although killing a being in potentia is clearly not the same as killing that being in actua, they still remain related evils.

There are 3 scenarios which I believe ought to be discussed separately.

1) Abortion following consensual sex. This is nothing but an act of depraved and licentious selfishness. One cuts off a life of another in order to avoid taking responsibility for one's actions. I see no reason why all parties involved in such a procedure shouldn't be imprisoned or stiffly fined. At best it's an issue of property violation, but even so it is a violation brought about by her own actions.

2) Abortion to save the mother's life. In such an event I would absolutely condone and advocate abortion, as the usual dilemmas posed by killing to save one's life do not apply in this scenario, on account of the mother being a person in actuality, as opposed to the fetus, who is merely a potentiality.

3) Abortion after rape. Although I have more sympathy for those who condone abortion in this scenario over #1, I still oppose abortion in such a case, as the fetus's existence in the unwilling mother's womb amounts to no more than (provided that the mother is not endangered) a violation of property, and as such hardly justifies the killing of the violator. This is compounded by the fact that the fetus hasn't violated the mother's property by any willed action of it's own, but rather by it's passive existence.

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This is copy-pasted from last abortion thread.

[DriveAlive]

I have a hard time making up my mind on this issue. I understand the idea that it is the woman's body and she should have control over her reproductive rights...but how far does that extend? Also, it could be argued that fetuses aborted before viability should not be considered living even though they have brain function. Even if this is accepted, then one must look at post viability abortions as wrong. While it is extremely one-sided, we watched a film called "The Silent Scream" in school, where they show an ultrasound during an abortion procedure and a doctor explains what it going on. It was quite shocking.

[Atlantis]

Depending on your religion it is a sin and I think in some countries an abortion is only legal on medical grounds. As in the mother would probably die if the baby was born.
If someone conceives then decides they don't want a baby I don't think they should abort it. Just give birth and if you still really don't want a baby get it adopted. That may be morally wrong separating a child and mother for no good reason but at least give the baby a chance in life instead of killing it before it was even born.

[northy]

I think that it is fine. A woman should be in charge of her own body. However, I don't think it's a decision that should be taken lightly. I think that it is fine if someone has an abortion if it will mean that she gets to continue her life and be happy. E.g, teenage pregnancy. However, it is ultimately their decision and no religion should make them have the baby if they don't want it.
To all those that say "ADOPTION!", there are already enough orphans in this world.

[james wolf]

I think abortions should be legal. It is a woman's right to control what goes on in her body.

Are we going to criticise girls for menstrating, because those eggs could have been fertilised to become a new life.

That said I personally would have a negative view on a woman having consensual, unprotected sex and aborting the resultant foetus.

[Katie96xox]

I am 100% pro-life in all circumstances. If a woman gets pregnant, other than in rape, it's her own fault and I don't find it unreasonable for her to deal with the consequences. If she doesn't want the child then I'm sure there are plenty of people who would happily adopt it. Someone should not be able to take away a human life to convenience themselves. It's barbaric.

As for cases of rape, I can understand why some people would support abortion in this case but I still think it's wrong. It's still taking away a human life and if I was raped I don't think that killing my own baby would solve anything, rather the opposite. Why should a baby have to suffer a brutal death because of the actions of some scumbag rapist?

Then there's the old line people throw out about 'what if the mother's life is in danger'. It is extremely rare that a mother's life can only be saved by abortion, it hasn't been a problem since the 60's. Even so, on a matter of principle I can't reconcile voluntarily taking the life of an innocent baby.

Feminists and all of that mob always say "it's my body, my choice" but it's not your body, it's your child's body. They are different things. It might be inside your body but it doesn't make it your body. That's just how biology is and there's nothing you can do about it. Don't like it? Then you should have been a hen or some other animal that lays eggs instead. But don't butcher a baby because you find the biology of humanity to be an inconvenience. That's just evil.

[northy]

I am 100% pro-life in all circumstances. If a woman gets pregnant, other than in rape, it's her own fault and I don't find it unreasonable for her to deal with the consequences. If she doesn't want the child then I'm sure there are plenty of people who would happily adopt it. Someone should not be able to take away a human life to convenience themselves. It's barbaric.So is eating meat. Deal with it.

Why should a baby have to suffer a brutal death because of the actions of some scumbag rapist?*Foetus. Not baby. Not conscious, therefore no pain, therefore not brutal.

Then there's the old line people throw out about 'what if the mother's life is in danger'. It is extremely rare that a mother's life can only be saved by abortion, it hasn't been a problem since the 60's. Even so, on a matter of principle I can't reconcile voluntarily taking the life of an innocent baby.So you'd rather die and have your 'baby' (Foetus) die with you rather than just the foetus? Selfish.

Feminists and all of that mob always say "it's my body, my choice" but it's not your body, it's your child's body. *Foetus, not child, not body. In that sense, you are killing children when you injure yourself.

In quote.

[Jinglebottom]

I'd rather not see any more Prom Night babies. *cough* Melissa Drexler *cough*

[lliam]

Just give birth and if you still really don't want a baby get it adopted.


If life isn't wanted, it should never be born.

The world is already overflowing with existences who deep inside curse the day they were born several times a day.

And indeed regardless of any kind of cultural, religious influences and individual parental preferences and the social environment.


Who is Pro Life, must be aware that he/she thus completely is responsible for the possibility that the mother's life and the newborn's life is destined to fail and that both life may a burden to the community.



However, from a certain stage of fetal maturation on, the mother may not be allowed to decide over her own body. Who hesitates, must bear the consequences.

[DriveAlive]

Another important question to ask is if the circumstances surrounding conception or birth affect the worth of the human life?

[Uniquemind]

Another important question to ask is if the circumstances surrounding conception or birth affect the worth of the human life?

I want to argue yes to that actually, because that concept provides more flexibility rather than an absolute.

[DriveAlive]

I want to argue yes to that actually, because that concept provides more flexibility rather than an absolute.

So if a person is conceived out of rape or born into a poor family, their life should be considered less valuable?

[West Coast Sheriff]

This is one of the most if not the most controversial topics in America so bear with me.

I am strongly against abortions. I hope you can respect my opinion as I will respect yours.

It is imperative that I clarify that I would never judge anyone who had one.

I also personally disagree with condoms, birth control and sex before marriage so understand where I come from. But if you live your life differently, I wouldn't judge. I try my best to respect everyone and their opinion.

For an injustice topic, I researched abortions. I go to a catholic school might I add. I interviewed a clinic that provides abortions and the women working their were very nice. I don't like planned parenthood but, I believe there are other clinics that can provide abortions. Abortions should not be preformed after three weeks. There are health concerns for the potential mother. I've found that in many third trimester abortions the child is born premature and the doctor has to terminate the life at that moment.

Abortions in the first twenty weeks could be allowed in cases of rape and also not to violate the freedoms of pro-choice advocates.

If the mothers life is in danger, then an abortion procedure may be necessary.

Lastly, if you disagree with me please don't hate me, just disagree with me.

[RiHouse]

I'm 100% pro-choice.

Abortions in cases of rape, or if the mother is shockingly young, no matter what term or week of pregnancy should absolutely be legal and accessible to them at any time. Could you imagine raising a child knowing that the only reason they're alive is because someone sexually assaulted you with the sole intent to cause you harm? What about if you were 11 and you made a bad choice with your boyfriend and you were suddenly thrust into a situation which most adults aren't even equipped for, let alone and 11 year old who probably doesn't even fully grasp the consequences of having a child. On top of that having to tell your parents that you're pregnant and and need to do something about it?

Or what about if the mother's life is in danger? Who are we to say that her unborn child who is literally a clump of cells at this point is worth more than her?

Something that's always bothered me about the pro-life argument is the ridiculous statement that "it's a human life, it deserves to be saved". There are a number of reasons that I hate this argument so much, but the main reason is that even when a child is born healthily, they're essentially useless for the first 2 years of their life, just as how they are useless in the womb. How is it any different? By the way I'm not saying that killing a 2 year old child is the same as killing an unborn child, but you understand my point.

Even though you may disagree with my point understand this: in the Autumn of 1957, Hamida al-Attas was pregnant with a child that she did not want, and planned to get an abortion. The country she lived did not allow such a "crime" and an illegal abortion was punishable by death. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, she had not choice but to have the child. 44 years later, that child turned out to be the mastermind behind the September 11 attack in N.Y.C and Washington, Osama bin Laden.

Maybe abortion isn't so bad after all.

[Uniquemind]

This is one of the most if not the most controversial topics in America so bear with me.

I am strongly against abortions. I hope you can respect my opinion as I will respect yours.

It is imperative that I clarify that I would never judge anyone who had one.

I also personally disagree with condoms, birth control and sex before marriage so understand where I come from. But if you live your life differently, I wouldn't judge. I try my best to respect everyone and their opinion.

For an injustice topic, I researched abortions. I go to a catholic school might I add. I interviewed a clinic that provides abortions and the women working their were very nice. I don't like planned parenthood but, I believe there are other clinics that can provide abortions. Abortions should not be preformed after three weeks. There are health concerns for the potential mother. I've found that in many third trimester abortions the child is born premature and the doctor has to terminate the life at that moment.

Abortions in the first twenty weeks could be allowed in cases of rape and also not to violate the freedoms of pro-choice advocates.

If the mothers life is in danger, then an abortion procedure may be necessary.

Lastly, if you disagree with me please don't hate me, just disagree with me.

Oh good respectable opinion. The problem with enforcing that opinion in actual law practice is that lawyers can stall you out.

Oops you got stalled so long in court that your past 20 weeks and you are no longer eligible for an abortion.

Oh sorry police couldn't test your rape lot, because they had staff or budget cuts, OOPS!

When this topic gets discussed it needs more variables to be considered even when we discuss opinions, we are giving naive opinions. We need to be aware of that when we have deep conversations about this.

These issues are tough to discuss for decades now with no previous generation solving them for a reason, if we intend to be a brain child think tank, we need to be better in both the ideals we back and solutions we give.



So if a person is conceived out of rape or born into a poor family, their life should be considered less valuable?

That already seems to be a hush-hush secret operating policy among the status quo behind those who make legislation, disaster response policy, and in those examples it would probably be valued on a case by case basis.

You said circumstances, and then you narrowed it down to a specific examples which are not as broad.

I would counter that I said such a concept would depend on the individuals and the situations of a particular case.

Ex:

It's determined that the baby would be healthy if brought to term or not.

The health of the woman

Their finances

Societal supports available for daycare food water, shelter.


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Look at what happened to poor economically supported Flint, MI.

All their children now pose a burden to society at no fault of their own because the city and state leadership poisoned the town with lead water. That's a fraction of the population who cannot be counted on to be fully functioning adults without health and developmental problems. The nation is made weaker in the context of workforce competition.

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The real debate we're having is this:

Are abortion services a form of charity or not given the status quo?

I use the word "charity" deliberately by the way. Albeit it's a dark charity.

One could argue the concept of the military and state-sponsored violence is too a "dark necessary evil, and in some cases a dark charity of convenience, masqueraded as special OPs etc."

[West Coast Sheriff]

Uniquemind

I wasn't say only in rape cases but in other cases as well to preserve the right of the potential mother.

Basically, as long as she does the procedure with 20 weeks for whatever reason.

[DriveAlive]

Defend it however you want, but it is still the termination of a human life for personal reasons. You are basically saying that because this child is inconvenient/product of rape/etc. their life is worth less than someone else. Therefore, it is all right to terminate it. For those of you who see the procedure as relatively simple or "just a clump of cells" I highly recommend you watch the documentary "The Silent Scream". It is highly biased, but it does show an ultrasound of an abortion procedure with a doctor explaining the process.

[Uniquemind]

Defend it however you want, but it is still the termination of a human life for personal reasons. You are basically saying that because this child is inconvenient/product of rape/etc. their life is worth less than someone else. Therefore, it is all right to terminate it. For those of you who see the procedure as relatively simple or "just a clump of cells" I highly recommend you watch the documentary "The Silent Scream". It is highly biased, but it does show an ultrasound of an abortion procedure with a doctor explaining the process.

Nobody said this world was fair or nice.

In fact history and reality both in the past and present state a complete opposite.

If a particular soul is supposed to experience life, I'm pretty sure fate will find a way.

Death is a natural part of life if done in a particular ratio with birthdate.

I've seen abortion procedures on youtube.

[PinkFloyd]

I'd say I'm pro-choice. I simply don't care if a fetus is aborted. Of course, it is murder in my book if a fetus is killed in the third trimester when it's basically a baby; but before then, whatever. As a sidenote, it does bother me that I don't care, but the fact is that I just don't. If someone doesn't want a baby to continue developing inside of them, then that's their situation and I could care less.

[DriveAlive]

Nobody said this world was fair or nice.

In fact history and reality both in the past and present state a complete opposite.

If a particular soul is supposed to experience life, I'm pretty sure fate will find a way.

Death is a natural part of life if done in a particular ratio with birthdate.

I've seen abortion procedures on youtube.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. There is a difference between life not being fair, and allowing someone to kill another. So it is okay to kill someone as long as someone else is born? I am truly baffled by this logic...

[Uniquemind]

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. There is a difference between life not being fair, and allowing someone to kill another. So it is okay to kill someone as long as someone else is born? I am truly baffled by this logic...

It's not ideal. But it's necessary given how this world operates now.

I would be much more sympathetic to change my argument, if other factors about life and society were also to simultaneously change as a broad policy shift to curb abortions and promote keeping the baby.

But that would create a political upheaval.

I am not going to support a world where other status quo mechanisms are accepted while a woman's right to choose would go away without other social changes.

[DriveAlive]

It's not ideal. But it's necessary given how this world operates now.

I would be much more sympathetic to change my argument, if other factors about life and society were also to simultaneously change as a broad policy shift to curb abortions and promote keeping the baby.

But that would create a political upheaval.

I am not going to support a world where other status quo mechanisms are accepted while a woman's right to choose would go away without other social changes.

I am still not sure what you mean. So you perceive it as wrong yet are okay with it continuing for the sake of maintaining the status quo? This is comparable to letting the homeless starve because it would take to much effort to do something. Should you not try to stop injustice whenever and wherever you find it?

[Uniquemind]

I am still not sure what you mean. So you perceive it as wrong yet are okay with it continuing for the sake of maintaining the status quo? This is comparable to letting the homeless starve because it would take to much effort to do something. Should you not try to stop injustice whenever and wherever you find it?

It's a different problem therefore I judge it differently. But in that same vein, it's similar. Unless you have enough political power and energy to not only feed and clothe the homeless, but also stem the flow of problems that feed into the reason you have a homeless population problem in the first place....no you're throwing good resources after bad.

That's not shrewd management or leadership. It's political correctness on an issue that needs more umph than a soup kitchen and a few shelters.

But back to abortion....why is the problem as big as it is? Differing state laws on what is and isn't allowed in sex education etc.

So I get you don't understand my POV I get that often and I'm willing to end the conversation here. But it's how I see it given that it's been a issue for over 10 years with the same points on both sides being made about morality this or that.

I'm changing the framework of the debate because obviously we got nowhere with the first and we're wasting time on a problem that should've been solved by now.

P.S. The homeless do starve and a certain percentage die off every year, especially during winter.