Migrant crisis : Should Europe continue to accept these people ?

[Exocet]

As everyone knows,Europe is being flooded with migrants coming from Middle East,but not only ! Also from Africa,Asia etc.
Should Europe continue to accept these people ? Should we close the borders and send back the boats-people such as Australia does ?

[Jinglebottom]

Send them back to سوريا

[Exocet]

Send them back to سوريا

The real refugees are those that are in the camps in Lebanon,Turkey,Jordan etc. Those hordes of men flooding us (With good clothes and smartphones LOL !) are surely not "refugees".

How come little countries like Jordan and Lebanon welcomes millions of Syrian refugees when the rich countries like Kuwait,KSA,Qatar,UAE accept 0 of them ?

'Sure that with that mentality,we won't go anywhere.....

wDBvtB2uUbc

[Jinglebottom]

The towelhead Arabs are smart. They're not going to allow a horde of so-called "refugees" to infiltrate their countries. Lebanon has no functioning government, and plus we have a long border with Syria (it takes ~3 hours by car from Beirut to Damascus).

Speaking of which,
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/02/article-2677582-1F55049700000578-641_964x633.jpg
You can just see the outline of his next-gen iPhone in his fucking pocket! Now tell me how miserable they are. http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah286/bobyo01/rofl_zpskengj081.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/rofl_zpskengj081.gif.html)
And seriously, I want to know where he got those jeans.

Idk what the guy in the video is smoking. Lebanon is NOT any cheaper than Gulf countries. If anything, it's a lot more expensive (at least when comparing groceries and clothes). I was shocked at how cheap food was in Dubai. Bullshit.

[Exocet]

The towelhead Arabs are smart. They're not going to allow a horde of so-called "refugees" to infiltrate their countries. Lebanon has no functioning government, and plus we have a long border with Syria (it takes ~3 hours by car from Beirut to Damascus).

Speaking of which,
image (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/02/article-2677582-1F55049700000578-641_964x633.jpg)
You can just see the outline of his next-gen iPhone in his fucking pocket! Now tell me how miserable they are. image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/rofl_zpskengj081.gif.html)
And seriously, I want to know where he got those jeans.


Refugees used to be defenceless persons such as children,elderly persons and women,with bad and dirty clothes,hungry..... surely not hordes of fat and savage men with great clothes,smartphones,rioting because they're not given 1000€/month and a luxury house......

[Jinglebottom]

Whenever I come across an actual refugee, not an economic migrant, I always make sure to give them a dollar or something. Now that rarely happens, because most of them are just able-bodied men, as you said. And I can recognize their Syrian accent very well. Very very different from the way Lebanese people speak.

[phuckphace]

http://i.imgur.com/J3s3IEU.png

[Kahn]

I just can't imagine the Middle East accepted, or would ever accept, hundreds of thousands of European refugees, once the Soviets and Americans started invading Europe in the 40's. These people are abandoning their ruined homes, to ruin another. They need to stabilize their region. We need to get our troops and agents out of the fray. We're hurting the situation, more than helping it.

[Vanilla Cupcake]

I think they should close the boarders and not let anymore in. It's bad enough the amount they have already let in. The stats show that rape has gone up since letting them in.

[Leprous]

Honestly, to all people saying they shouldn't let them in, how would you feel if war broke out where you live? These people HATE to come to Europe, they want to go home but they can't because it isn't safe. If you travelled all across Europe to find a closed border, how would you feel? It makes me sad to see so many people just being like "not my country not my problem" .

Not all of them are bad, stop blaming the refugees for crime. Most of them are good people.

[northy]

I think we should tackle the root cause of the problem. We need to try and make peace in the East.
The difficulty is doing that.
Letting them in is a temporary solution to a long term problem.

[Vlerchan]

I just can't imagine the Middle East accepted, or would ever accept, hundreds of thousands of European refugees, once the Soviets and Americans started invading Europe in the 40's.
That's all well and good but when has the Middle East ever been a good standard to benchmark our societies against?

---

I voted yes. We can engage in a futile effort to repel the refugees or we can make efforts to adapt to this and end the crisis. I don't support the current measures in use but that doesn't mean effective engagement is impossible.

[Jinglebottom]

There will never be peace in the ME... my pessimism is showing.

[Kahn]

That's all well and good but when has the Middle East ever been a good standard to benchmark our societies against?

Good point.

Why let in thousands of able bodied, unemployed, military age men, and tens to hundreds of thousands more unemployed, frantic refugees of all ages, genders, and sizes from these same countries who have historically had violent, backwards cultures (in the perspective of the West)? It would seem to me, at least, this would put a country on the fast track to polarization, and ruin. Two populations with distinctly different cultures forced to assimilate, quickly.

[Vlerchan]

Why let in thousands of able bodied, unemployed, military age men, and tens to hundreds of thousands more unemployed, frantic of all ages, genders, and sizes from these same countries who have historically had violent, backwards cultures? It would seem to me, at least, this would put a country on the fast track to polarization and ruin.
I'll first add that it is this suggestion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3260430&postcount=27) that I believe is the most workable. It will also have the added benefit of gifting the refugees with the human capital required to reconstruct their own societies on return.

The point on culture can be dismantled through multiple mechanisms. I prefer the one suggested in that link. However a strong alternative is that we relocate one refugee family to a parish (or groups of 6 otherwise). It spreads the population to diminish short-run shocks to housing and schooling supplies. This has the added benefit of exposing people to what their funding is going to. But relating to the point it avoids ghettotisation and the collective action that would prompt ruin. It also avoids facilitating their demand for cultural institutions.

The character otherwise is of marginal importance. I don't care if the refugees could be fighting for or against damascus: it's immaterial and so are the related appeals to their lack of heroism. There immediate unemployment and upkeep is a more pressing issue in this formula but entirely rectifiable in the medium-run.

[Exocet]

Honestly, to all people saying they shouldn't let them in, how would you feel if war broke out where you live? These people HATE to come to Europe, they want to go home but they can't because it isn't safe. If you travelled all across Europe to find a closed border, how would you feel? It makes me sad to see so many people just being like "not my country not my problem" .

Not all of them are bad, stop blaming the refugees for crime. Most of them are good people.

You are a refugee when you arrive in Turkey,Lebanon,Jordan the safe countries bordering Syria. When you leave Turkey,land in Greece,literally invade Macedonia and riot because there's a red cross on the food then cross Serbia,Hungary,Austria and rioting because people want to register you (Haven't you seen that video where a bunch of Austrian cops tried to block illegal migrants,but they flooded them and let all of them to cross...),and choosing the country you want to be in ! Also being not happy cuz Germany gives you slow internet,because there's too much sugar in juice,or because the food isn't hallal,when you come in hordes in Europe and complain like disappointed tourists,sorry but you're not a refugee,just an illegal migrants who need to be treated like illegal persons entering your country.
They have brothers in ME,we owe them NOTHING,we have no reasons to accept them.
-
A Nigerian refugee fleeing war has to flee to bordering countries,surely not to Sweden,Denmark,Germany.
-
Hungary did it in the interest of its population and the interest of the Europeans.
-
Sorry but bringing a lot of aliens into Europe (When we have some of our fellow that sleep in the streets,when those that are already here aren't fully integrated),this is just MADNESS.

[Exocet]

I think we should tackle the root cause of the problem. We need to try and make peace in the East.
The difficulty is doing that.
Letting them in is a temporary solution to a long term problem.

When we'll find an issue of the Israel-palestinian war,when Saudi Arabia and Iran would want to stop their proxy wars,when muslims themselves will stop to kill each others,then it MAY be possible. :confused:
-
But most of the sh*ts happening there is due to our recent interventions to bring them "democracy".... I won't say ME was a peaceful heaven before our recent interventions,but it wasn't as shitty as it is today.

[Microcosm]

I say Europe is for Europeans.

People who support this aren't the ones having to pay for these people who, once paid for, often go and commit crimes and disrupt the peace. That makes sense given that they come from a society with such a low standard of living.

[phuckphace]

I was doing some reading on Nordic mythology and what always sticks out is that the gods get BTFO in their own apocalypse (Ragnarök = "twilight of the gods"). perhaps it was a prophetic allegory for Mother Europa's extinction at the hands of her very own elites.

I can totally see Merkel popping a ladyboner when she hears "Götterdämmerung" tbqh, a thought almost as disturbing as her leadership itself

[Jinglebottom]

Complaining that the food isn't "halal"? What's next? Complaining because people are eating in public during their holy month of Ramadan?

There is no way out of the nightmare that is the Middle East.

Iraq is a mess. An ISIS-filled mess, that is. As if they needed that after the early 00's. Syria... 'nuff said. I should've said "the land once known as Syria" because it's a dead state. Just look at Raqqah and Mosul and the situation they're in. Their people are more oppressed than Saudi Arabia's citizens. Wouldn't surprise me if ISIS extended its "caliphate" (hah) to other countries.

Hezbollah seems willing to do everything in its power to keep the fight alive against Israel. Of course, since it's supported by Iran. And now that Samir Kuntar was killed, God knows what that maniac Nasrallah's going to pull. He's literally begging for Israel to strike him once in for all.

As for the Palestinian stone throwers... stop directing your attacks at the IDF and maybe then you can live in "peace" alongside the "Zionist regime" (their words, not mine).

tl;dr ME = no peace = war = forever.

[StoppingTom]

I was doing some reading on Nordic mythology and what always sticks out is that the gods get BTFO in their own apocalypse (Ragnarök = "twilight of the gods"). perhaps it was a prophetic allegory for Mother Europa's extinction at the hands of her very own elites.

I can totally see Merkel popping a ladyboner when she hears "Götterdämmerung" tbqh, a thought almost as disturbing as her leadership itself

In the same vein though, in Nordic mythology, the world then basically starts all over again, with the same prophecy and gods, etc.

What I think is interesting is that throughout history (this is emphasized a lot in Western countries experiencing a change in era i.e early 1900's America and Europe) is that there have always been people against letting migrants in, and then those same migrants end up becoming a major part of the population when the next immigration wave hits. I wonder how many of us, if we lived 100 years earlier, would be cursing those damn dirty Irish and Italians. Or those damn dirty Mexicans if we lived 20 (or even now lol) years ago.

History repeats itself, maybe we'll see these immigrants the same way we view the Irish and Italians a hundred years from now.

[Kahn]

I'll first add that it is this suggestion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3260430&postcount=27) that I believe is the most workable. It will also have the added benefit of gifting the refugees with the human capital required to reconstruct their own societies on return.

The point on culture can be dismantled through multiple mechanisms. I prefer the one suggested in that link. However a strong alternative is that we relocate one refugee family to a parish (or groups of 6 otherwise). It spreads the population to diminish short-run shocks to housing and schooling supplies. This has the added benefit of exposing people to what their funding is going to. But relating to the point it avoids ghettotisation and the collective action that would prompt ruin. It also avoids facilitating their demand for cultural institutions.

The character otherwise is of marginal importance. I don't care if the refugees could be fighting for or against damascus: it's immaterial and so are the related appeals to their lack of heroism. There immediate unemployment and upkeep is a more pressing issue in this formula but entirely rectifiable in the medium-run.

I agree with the city building project. It sounds like that way would bring about the most peaceable solution to the mess. Has this been proposed anywhere? I'm genuinely interested because, at the present moment, I can't say for certain if any nation accepting refugees have taken steps to facilitate this program.

Right now, it all seems like one giant clusterfuck.

[Vlerchan]

You are a refugee when you arrive in Turkey,Lebanon,Jordan the safe countries bordering Syria. When you leave Turkey,land in Greece,literally invade Macedonia and riot because there's a red cross on the food then cross Serbia,Hungary,Austria and rioting because people want to register you
Literally no territory or supranational body uses this definition.

I've also decided I'm no longer going to waste time with posts which include incorrect definitions of what a refugee is. There's no point.

Haven't you seen that video where a bunch of Austrian cops tried to block illegal migrants,but they flooded them and let all of them to cross...
I've also mentioned my issue with you generalising from decontextualised videos before.

Has this been proposed anywhere? I'm genuinely interested because, at the present moment, I can't say for certain if any nation accepting refugees have taken steps to facilitate this program.
No national government has considered it. I got the idea from an economists called Paul Romer in this blog post (http://paulromer.net/let-them-come-and-they-will-build-it/). He's a massive proponent of a project called Charter Cities (http://urbanizationproject.org/blog/charter-cities) and I have borrowed some amount from his thought there too.

Pope Francis alluded to the idea of using parish's as geographical basis.

[Exocet]

Vlerchan

I bet you cried when you saw that aylan thing.

[Vlerchan]

I bet you cried when you saw that aylan thing.
Like you wouldn't believe it: all the way to sleep.

---

Feel free to be conductive whenever by the way.

:)

[james wolf]

I say Europe is for Europeans.


And America is for the American's... wait.

Large scale migration can be seen again and again throughout history. The best we can do is to welcome those who come here and show them compassion, while also trying to stop the cause of the migration - IE Civil war + ISIS.

Those who look down on and treat migrants badly only perpetuate the polarisation they see in society. If we reach out to one another we can make a harmonious society. Everyone is born a homo sapiens.

[james wolf]

Vlerchan

I bet you cried when you saw that aylan thing.

This is really quite insensitive and, as Vlerchan said, not adding anything to the debate.

Whether or not you agree with mass migration, surely we can all agree that the death of a small child is a tragedy. Each child that dies is a tragedy.

[phuckphace]

sadly I don't think Vlerchan's suggestion will get used, mainly because the "crisis" is at its heart cynical social engineering by the elites (some might say "conspiracy") under the fig-leaf of humanitarianism. it's merely the next phase in the plan following the creation of the neoliberal EU superstate - the EU dismantled national sovereignty, and now the migrant influx will dismantle social cohesion, and guess what the conclusion is? consolidation of power and money at the top, and an alienated serf-class at the bottom. it's kind of disheartening to see so many otherwise intelligent folks being played for fools in a game that has been obvious to the far-right from the outset.

tl;dr - cash rules everything around me

[Exocet]

This is really quite insensitive and, as Vlerchan said, not adding anything to the debate.

Whether or not you agree with mass migration, surely we can all agree that the death of a small child is a tragedy. Each child that dies is a tragedy.

Of course it is

But,I reject the "Look what you've done,it's your fault,we have to open the borders",something like that.

[Microcosm]

And America is for the American's... wait.

Large scale migration can be seen again and again throughout history. The best we can do is to welcome those who come here and show them compassion, while also trying to stop the cause of the migration - IE Civil war + ISIS.

Those who look down on and treat migrants badly only perpetuate the polarisation they see in society. If we reach out to one another we can make a harmonious society. Everyone is born a homo sapiens.

Idealistically, you're right. Meaning that it sounds nice, but it's not the way human interactions work, especially not with such polar opposite ways of life as that between Europeans and Middle East Muslims.

Does it surprise you that conflict has gone up in areas concentrated with migrants in Europe? They live completely different lifestyles and forcing them together only causes conflict. They belong separated. The two are not supposed to be together. They're completely different.

People from violent countries such as the ones where these migrants are coming from will just disrupt the peace, incite racial and cultural conflict, and generally increase crime rates. Not to mention the governments have to provide shelter and sustenance for them.

No thanks.

[Stronk Serb]

And America is for the American's... wait.

Large scale migration can be seen again and again throughout history. The best we can do is to welcome those who come here and show them compassion, while also trying to stop the cause of the migration - IE Civil war + ISIS.

Those who look down on and treat migrants badly only perpetuate the polarisation they see in society. If we reach out to one another we can make a harmonious society. Everyone is born a homo sapiens.

When you are with another European, let's say a refugee from the Yugoslav Civil War, he would agree. But when you are with Ahmed who won't listen to you and will only yell "Allahu Akbar!" while chopping your head off, it's a whole different story.

[Vlerchan]

the EU dismantled national sovereignty, and now the migrant influx will dismantle social cohesion, and guess what the conclusion is?
I have no issue with sacrificing national sovereignty that was rapidly receding regardless for a channel to actually assert our broader interests at an international level: nation-state are an increasingly redundant vehicle for producing effective change.

It's also that social cohesion amongst national groups increases on exposure to groups of a separate national origin.
Does it surprise you that conflict has gone up in areas concentrated with migrants in Europe?
It surprises no-one. That doesn't mean that the issue isn't rectifiable and I have offered a number of unaddressed proposals as to dealing with the influx in a manner that would minimise violence.

I should also add that the violence has been concentrated amongst the refugees themselves, refugee-police incidents, and racists attacking the refugees. It's not something that at the moment is impacting the all-important welfare of Europeans.

They live completely different lifestyles and forcing them together only causes conflict. They belong separated. The two are not supposed to be together. They're completely different.
It doesn't only cause conflict. It also doesn't cause mostly conflict.

Your clash of civilisations narrative is disastrously slanted.

People from violent countries such as the ones where these migrants are coming from will just disrupt the peace, incite racial and cultural conflict, and generally increase crime rates.
I'll repeat that no-one doubts that this will occur to some extent. It's significantly more dubious that it will outweigh the large welfare gains of the peaceful refugees.

[Jinglebottom]

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah286/bobyo01/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah286/bobyo01/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah286/bobyo01/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)

[Judean Zealot]

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)

= Goriest post I've seen on VT.

[Jinglebottom]

= Goriest post I've seen on VT.
That's a compliment. :P

[Exocet]

http://i.imgur.com/nBVq6Sv.png

[phuckphace]

Vlerchan - see:

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)

it's rather difficult to "assert your broader interests" or...well, anything for that matter, when you're dead.

the above poster lives in a country where he is surrounded in all directions by this exact situation which, thanks to mass immigration and the elite-engineered refugee "crisis" will soon spill over into Europe as well. I think I'd trust the word of an eyewitness more than that of an EU bureaucrat cloistered in an ivory tower who, by the way, considers its pro-internationalist citizens useful idiots.

national sovereignty is far more than just "muh economy." unfortunately it's looking like most of you will have to learn this the hard way.

[Vlerchan]

The European Union could take in another 30 million - Yes: with six zeros - before reaching the same Muslim to Non-Muslim densities as the likes of France. I'm not worried about the horde. Though I would rather we avoided needing to take in such numbers.

xbob also lives in state without a functioning government and that's home to a ascendant radical Iranian-proxy inner-state. It was a basket case before the refugees came.

[james wolf]

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)

Wow, now that you put it that way I am definitely convinced by your argument.. :rolleyes:

[Porpoise101]

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)
I'm pretty sure that it will be like when Christianity started to outnumber pagans. It's not like this would be a new phenomenon.

[Exocet]

What will happen to Europeans when Muslims start outnumbering them in their own continent:
image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/t0129_zpsnb2lonjx.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/flynch_zpsc81cgtzv.gif.html) image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/m0941_zpswok8mtbh.gif.html)

They already started to behead,to blow themselves up and to kill,so there's nothing new.

[Judean Zealot]

I'm pretty sure that it will be like when Christianity started to outnumber pagans. It's not like this would be a new phenomenon.

In other words what Bob posted. I wouldn't have liked to be a pagan (or Jew, for that matter) when Christianity took over.

[Jinglebottom]

Wow, now that you put it that way I am definitely convinced by your argument.. :rolleyes:
Okay, I'm done trying. I don't live in Europe after all, so whether or not you get flooded with refugees doesn't affect me. If you want to let them in, feel free to do so. Have fun (also, don't eat in public during July and August, make sure pork is in its own separate section at every store, and prohibit the sale of alcohol altogether).

[MathewB NL]

just send them all back, all those moneyseekers

[phuckphace]

The European Union could take in another 30 million - Yes: with six zeros - before reaching the same Muslim to Non-Muslim densities as the likes of France. I'm not worried about the horde. Though I would rather we avoided needing to take in such numbers.

your elites will see your 30 mil and raise you 100 mil. they're economists, I wouldn't expect negative externalities like, say, getting suicide bombed or being outbred 10:1 to factor in at all.

what is plain to everyone else is that such a large influx of Fremdmoral will obviously alter the character of the host nations for the worse, something that doesn't appear on the shekelcharts.

xbob also lives in state without a functioning government and that's home to a ascendant radical Iranian-proxy inner-state. It was a basket case before the refugees came.

...which kind of underscores my point, really. a critical mass of "towelheads" in your region and you've got conflict and anarchy everywhere. even most ME countries with governments are pretty awful places, i.e. UAE/Dubai.

reminder: most of the EU populace has been disarmed. "our gun bans keep us safe" :)

[Microcosm]

I'd argue the free market is large enough for all.

I'm of the opinion that refugees should be placed in camps - not cities - and then the camps should be designated as exclusive economic zones, deregulated and the incidence of taxation on investors reduced. Firms can invest in these areas so long as these firms agree to aid in the construction of infrastructure and so on. This will be in their interests regardless. It won't require too large a space, it's quite possible to pack hundreds if not thousands of people into a square kilometre.

If this sounds like I'm promoting the construction of new cities, then the reader is on track. Building cities is something that we've been doing for centuries - and entirely spontaneously at that. It might require a small gvt. investment to begin with but the historical returns on the construction of city's is colossal - Evidenced in the fact that land values in-and-around cities tend to explode. It will of course occur under stable governance of Westerners: Urban planners, Urban and Industrial Economists. Our middle eastern friends will all be conservatives, so social excesses will be minimised.

It's also the case that movement outside of these zones for refugees won't occur except under special conditions. So our less, inclusive, let's say, peers, won't even have to se them.

They will become educated. They will realize that they are being segregated. They will wonder why. Then they will claim that the government that helped them prosper is oppressing them.

It again raises the question: Why should European countries help them? Many of them refuse to take food and water from Europeans. Plus, it will only eventually lead to more conflict because of their almost unavoidable claims to segregation.

You can't keep them in their own psuedo-European cities forever. They will eventually feel segregated and try to move in to the white cities. And then the inevitable spreading of Islamic culture occurs, the lower standards of living carry over into the ghettos of Europe, increasing crime and government expenses towards fighting welfare and poverty.

[Jinglebottom]

You can't allow uncivilized people in a civilized country! And what makes you think they'll like living somewhere as foreign as Europe? The Syrians can't even blend in with us! (the country that's closest to them in terms of traditions, customs, food, language...). No matter how much you try to "educate" them.

[phuckphace]

Ibrahim is my second-fave Leb after Nassim Taleb

[Vlerchan]

your elites will see your 30 mil and raise you 100 mil.
Elites are constrained by their reserves of political capital. If such wild fantasies are true then we were doomed from the beginning.

they're economists, I wouldn't expect negative externalities like, say, getting suicide bombed or being outbred 10:1 to factor in at all.
Good point there, Mr Pigou.

---

Muslims immigrants also breed at a rate of about two children per woman by the latest statistics.

what is plain to everyone else is that such a large influx of Fremdmoral will obviously alter the character of the host nations for the worse, something that doesn't appear on the shekelcharts.
Yes it does. The stability of a region is a pretty key factor in corporate investment decisions.

That's also the reason I'm incredibly doubtful you and European elites are thinking along the same lines at all.

.which kind of underscores my point, really. a critical mass of "towelheads" in your region and you've got conflict and anarchy everywhere. even most ME countries with governments are pretty awful places, i.e. UAE/Dubai.
Yes. Let's minimise the entire situation in the Lebanon to the fact that there's muslims there.

Like I've said though the suggestions I've posed on the issue have sought to avoid these issues.

They will become educated. They will realize that they are being segregated.
This is going to be outright segregation that prospective refugees opt into. You won't need to be educated to realise it.

If certain refugees have an issue then those can remain in the middle east. If certain refugees raise questions then I'll just point to the efficiency of it.

It again raises the question: Why should European countries help them?
This isn't charity. The firms and governments that invest in these regions will have colossal returns. Preceding that start-up investment there's little aid needed.

Like I already said though aiding the refugees raises global welfare. There's an absolute utilitarian basis to it.

Many of them refuse to take food and water from Europeans.
I have discussed these claims at length before. They're chronic misrepresentations.

Useful ones albeit.

Plus, it will only eventually lead to more conflict because of their almost unavoidable claims to segregation.
Troublesome refugees will be evicted. I still hold with the claim that first generation immigrants are more acquiescenced to native demands.

I can support this with the empirical litrature as required.

You can't keep them in their own psuedo-European cities forever.
I don't intend to. I've never said this is a long-term solution. The long-term solution entails sending them back to the middle east and north africa.

---

I also prefer NeoEuropean.

:)

They will eventually feel segregated and try to move in to the white cities.
I also don't intend on letting them leave their compounds. It will be made clear to them before arrival that Europe will insist on exclusion.

And then the inevitable spreading of Islamic culture occur[.]
I hear it travels in the the saliva of our commonest rodents.

[...] the lower standards of living carry over into the ghettos of Europe, increasing crime and government expenses towards fighting welfare and poverty.
Yes. Thank you for highlighting the reasons I'm not just shunting them into citys and forgetting about them. Thoroughly helpful.

[german_boy]

It would be a much less problem if they were clear rules who is a refugee and who isn't. In my opinion, Syrians should be allowed to stay because they flee from war. People from Kosovo etc. come for economic reasons, they should not be allowed to stay. Another problem is that some countries refuse to participate in helping refugees while they want money from the other EU states (like Poland), they violate European law. It takes too long to process all the applications.

[phuckphace]

Elites are constrained by their reserves of political capital. If such wild fantasies are true then we were doomed from the beginning.

see: consolidation of power. once you've weaseled it away for yourself (and the dismantling of national sovereignty being in service to that goal) it doesn't matter what your populace thinks.

an unfortunate aspect of this consolidation is that there's zero noblesse oblige anymore.

Good point there, Mr Pigou.

it really doesn't need to be said because it's obvious but I'll say it anyway: today's economists exist to flatter and offer apparent justification for the antics of the globalist elite. from them we learn that nation-states are now "redundant" and "archaic" because it's the current year, duh!

Yes it does. The stability of a region is a pretty key factor in corporate investment decisions.

true, but it's worth considering that they, being largely insulated from reality, have much different ideas as to what conduces "stability" and what that actually means. they want us to buy the narrative that an ever-increasing number of foreigners will voluntarily choose to integrate into European society as productive citizens - not going to happen and you heard it here first.

That's also the reason I'm incredibly doubtful you and European elites are thinking along the same lines at all.

also true. I'm thinking, "how can we preserve a stable society and future for our citizens and our descendants?" they're thinking "how can I acquire more phat stacks without having to grovel to the hoi polloi?"

I noted before that libertarians and globalists privately hold the view that social/ethnic solidarity is a roadblock to establishing a free-for-all corporate dystopia. only a few of them, such as Bryan Caplan, lack enough self-awareness to avoid saying it out loud. (http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2011/06/immigration_and_2.html) - ugh if it weren't for citizens and their solidarity, I could be the freemarket king of a burned out ruin by now!

Yes. Let's minimise the entire situation in the Lebanon to the fact that there's muslims there.

the character of a nation is the sum of its parts. that's actually what it boils down to, believe it or not - see: everywhere there are a lot of Muslims. social dysfunction, violence, wife-beating, child-rape, etc.

one Gulf Arab country which I forget is attempting to curb corruption by making it illegal or something. I'm sure that will work out well.

Like I've said though the suggestions I've posed on the issue have sought to avoid these issues.

if the crisis actually had a legitimate humanitarian aim, this would've been the method used from the outset. there would've been strict standards and vetting put in place to help a reasonable number of people who are provably in need. every care would be taken to ensure that fanatics are not allowed in. this not occurring - they're letting in thousands of random boat people who could be from anywhere and if you think this is a bad idea, you're literally you-know-who. they're shamelessly spamming the media with photos of drowned children as an emotional manipulation tactic (which works absurdly well on white people). it's a ploy.

[Porpoise101]

they're letting in thousands of random boat people who could be from anywhere and if you think this is a bad idea, you're literally you-know-who. they're shamelessly spamming the media with photos of drowned children as an emotional manipulation tactic (which works absurdly well on white people). it's a ploy.
Woah, I didn't know that globalist elites were puppeteering the continent and controlling the media. That doesn't seem irrational and crazy at all!! Seriously even if it was true, at this point we're screwed man just give up and coast the rest of your life out.

[Kahn]

at this point we're screwed man just give up and coast the rest of your life out.

I like to think this is what many loyalist Britons thought just before the American revolution erupted.

[Sir Suomi]

Me and Vler got into this awhile back. I can't quite remember where the post is at, but I think the concept he discussed was interesting at least, although I'm still skeptical at best for supporting it.

I still think that I'd rather solve our own issues than deal with the issues of others. But hey, fuck ourselves, right?

[Microcosm]

I don't intend to. I've never said this is a long-term solution. The long-term solution entails sending them back to the middle east and north africa.

I highly doubt that they will just up and leave. In fact, I'd be almost certain they wouldn't. You think they would willingly go back to the slums they came from? Like the Middle East is ever going to get fixed within one, two, or even three generations. The Middle East won't be fixed for a very long time if it ever gets fixed at all. There is a better chance in North Africa, but still a very slim chance.

Point is: they won't want to go back. They will depend on their European living spaces and will have families there and grow accustomed to it long before any sort of reformation occurs in the middle east. By the time that reformation occurs(if it occurs at all), they will be settled firmly in the secluded cities.

Your long-term solution just isn't feasible. They are running from these regimes and will refuse to just go back. They would demand(along with many neoliberals in Europe) that they be integrated into European society.

Sorry, but I just can't see that ever working. The Middle East is a lost cause and it will be for generations.

I also prefer NeoEuropean.

It wouldn't be Neo-European. That implies that it is actually European, which it would, at first, be; however, once they came into the cities they would inevitably and certainly make their own additions to their environment. That, I assure you. Then, it would surely no longer be European. People would call it European, but it wouldn't be so much anymore. It is better to culturally characterize an environment or habitation by the people that occupy it rather than by the people who first made it. Given, obviously, that it changes once new people are living there.

Yes. Thank you for highlighting the reasons I'm not just shunting them into citys and forgetting about them. Thoroughly helpful.


That's not what I was doing. I was saying what would happen once the European governments eventually agreed to let them integrate into actual European cities, which would happen in many European countries after at most a few years.

Like I already said though aiding the refugees raises global welfare. There's an absolute utilitarian basis to it.[Emphasis added]

This is wrong. It doesn't increase global welfare. It increases the welfare of a small portion of refugees. If you were to put them in work camps rather than cities(feeding them well too; the term work camp has got a nasty ring to it nowadays), then they might be able to contribute somewhat to the global welfare. If that is your implication, then I suppose I'd concede that somewhat to you.

However, I still think the burden of caretaking over them for generations to come would be more of a loss than a gain.

I hear it travels in the the saliva of our commonest rodents.


Perhaps I should've specified: Middle-Eastern Islamic culture. This kind of culture from where the refugees are coming is extremely inferior to European culture. That is obvious, and it's also primarily one of the reasons why the refugees are running away from these places.

Still, the culture of the places they were born and raised in will follow them wherever they go(including any European establishments they come into contact with).

[Vlerchan]

see: consolidation of power. once you've weaseled it away for yourself (and the dismantling of national sovereignty being in service to that goal) it doesn't matter what your populace thinks.

an unfortunate aspect of this consolidation is that there's zero noblesse oblige anymore.
Then we've been doomed from the beginning and this debate is redundant.

Nonetheless. (https://euobserver.com/migration/131062)

it really doesn't need to be said because it's obvious but I'll say it anyway: today's economists exist to flatter and offer apparent justification for the antics of the globalist elite. from them we learn that nation-states are now "redundant" and "archaic" because it's the current year, duh!
I adopted that from the thought of European ethnoregionalist like Alain de Benoist and Tomislav Sunic - i.e. neofascists.

Economists don't make claims about state formation.

true, but it's worth considering that they, being largely insulated from reality, have much different ideas as to what conduces "stability" and what that actually means. they want us to buy the narrative that an ever-increasing number of foreigners will voluntarily choose to integrate into European society as productive citizens - not going to happen and you heard it here first.
I'm not sure what other people think but I feel that this degradation of elite intellect - the intellect that was capable of subverting the wills of half a billion people - is too fanciful to begin to deal with.

If the crisis actually had a legitimate humanitarian aim, this would've been the method used from the outset.
There's still basically no method decided on yet. That's the reason we still have them crammed into camps for the large part.

there would've been strict standards and vetting put in place to help a reasonable number of people who are provably in need. every care would be taken to ensure that fanatics are not allowed in.
This has also been difficult in the context of the actual crisis.

---

I highly doubt that they will just up and leave. In fact, I'd be almost certain they wouldn't. You think they would willingly go back to the slums they came from? Like the Middle East is ever going to get fixed within one, two, or even three generations. The Middle East won't be fixed for a very long time if it ever gets fixed at all. There is a better chance in North Africa, but still a very slim chance.
If the programme I have outlined is successful then I plan on using that as a channel from transplanting the core idea to the middle east and making it a zone for stable FDI. [e: I also discussed the reasons behind not wanting to open up the compounds in the Middle East in the original thread: please respond to those queries]. There conditions in these compounds also isn't going to be too great though: being able to return home to rebuild their lives should be a pleasant alternative.

It's no difficult matter to just round them all up - they're all in the same place - and deport them if worst comes to worst nonetheless. I've their host state regains peace then these people are no longer refugees and deporting them isn't an issue with me.

They will depend on their European living spaces and will have families there and grow accustomed to it long before any sort of reformation occurs in the middle east. By the time that reformation occurs(if it occurs at all), they will be settled firmly in the secluded cities.
I actually don't care if this is the case I've decided. I'm not blood and soil nationalist.

Losing a few square miles to the invaders isn't a problem to me.

They would demand(along with many neoliberals in Europe) that they be integrated into European society.

Even when we offer Muslims this they tend to self-segregate.

Isn't the point of your argument that Muslims don't want to integrate into our societies?

---

Neoliberals refers to free-marketers. These don't care about integration.

It wouldn't be Neo-European. That implies that it is actually European, which it would, at first, be; however, once they came into the cities they would inevitably and certainly make their own additions to their environment. That, I assure you. Then, it would surely no longer be European. People would call it European, but it wouldn't be so much anymore. It is better to culturally characterize an environment or habitation by the people that occupy it rather than by the people who first made it. Given, obviously, that it changes once new people are living there.
I wasn't being serious originally. I don't think we should be throwing around European at all.

That's not what I was doing. I was saying what would happen once the European governments eventually agreed to let them integrate into actual European cities, which would happen in many European countries after at most a few years.
You'll need to offer a reason as to why the governments would necessarily agree to do this. Thank you.

This is wrong. It doesn't increase global welfare. It increases the welfare of a small portion of refugees.
It substantially improves the welfare of over a million people. It also substantial improves the welfare of firms and governments that gain big on their original investments and the European citizens it trickles across too.

In case of the parish suggestion it's still going to be welfare improving as the benefit of not being bombed to bits far outweighs the cost of having a handful of brown neighbours.

---

It also seems like you misunderstand what I mean by global welfare.

I'm referring to happiness in the aggregate.

If you were to put them in work camps rather than cities(feeding them well too; the term work camp has got a nasty ring to it nowadays), then they might be able to contribute somewhat to the global welfare.
Work camps would require a sustained investment - and the likelihood would be it would be loss-making.

This requires a short government investment and then firms making investments thereafter. The firms will make an investment because it's welfare improving and the refugees would also interact with these decisions because it's welfare improving.

Perhaps I should've specified: Middle-Eastern Islamic culture. This kind of culture from where the refugees are coming is extremely inferior to European culture. That is obvious, and it's also primarily one of the reasons why the refugees are running away from these places.

Still, the culture of the places they were born and raised in will follow them wherever they go(including any European establishments they come into contact with).
Sure. Whatever. I've explicitly crafted my proposals so I wouldn't have to have this conversation.

[e: The reason is also primarily the result of multiple interventions.]

[Exocet]

It would be a much less problem if they were clear rules who is a refugee and who isn't. In my opinion, Syrians should be allowed to stay because they flee from war. People from Kosovo etc. come for economic reasons, they should not be allowed to stay. Another problem is that some countries refuse to participate in helping refugees while they want money from the other EU states (like Poland), they violate European law. It takes too long to process all the applications.


They have the right to refuse the trouble makers/terrorists/money seekers that Germany wants to impose to them,to Slovakia,to Czech etc.

[Judean Zealot]

Vlerchan gets my respect in this thread. :D

[Microcosm]

Vlerchan,

It could work I suppose under the right control. It's a valid response to a pressing situation and, while it has flaws, so do many other policies of its kind I guess. I think it's a good idea for a compromise of sorts.

[german_boy]

They have the right to refuse the trouble makers/terrorists/money seekers that Germany wants to impose to them,to Slovakia,to Czech etc.

Oh yeah? But the duty to help! The right to asylum shall be guaranteed with due respect for the rules of the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951 and the Protocol of 31 January 1967 relating to the status of refugees and in accordance with the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. (hereinafter referred to as "the Treaties").

Do we really want to impose them? Over 1 million people (way too much), can we bear that alone? In my opinion, they should be able to refuse them, but with consequences. It's unacceptable that some states don't help.

How many amongst them are trouble makers? How many of them are terrorists? I agree with the money seekers with the people from Kosovo, but not with them from Syria.
Why is a person who flees from the Daesh a terrorist?

[Exocet]

german_boy

Angela Merkel defends Germany’s open-door refugee policy

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a60f289a-9362-11e5-bd82-c1fb87bef7af.html#axzz3wBvrGgaB
-
You opened yourselves the doors to the hordes (Majority of men,not even 50% are Syrians),those people do not want to go to Poland,Romania,whatever,they all want to go to your country. And Nordic countries in some ways.

-
http://i.imgur.com/Zqbxfmk.jpg

How Do Syrian Women Feel about the Men Leaving for Europe as """""Refugees"""""?


d8n-eo5fDYU

[Microcosm]

Oh yeah? But the duty to help!


This is actually not true. Seeing as they are not citizens of the European countries they are appealing to, there is no obligation on European powers to help them or oversee their happiness even if it may be in some cases beneficial to the Europeans.

However, if the Europeans and their governments decide that it is not salutary or that it is actually harmful to take in these immigrants, they absolutely have the right to deny them entry. They rule in their own country. It is their decision.

[Porpoise101]

I highly doubt that they will just up and leave. In fact, I'd be almost certain they wouldn't.
Actually in most cases refugees return back to their place of origin because of family and they actually are more used to the environment there. The only times they don't is if they come from somewhere like Somalia where there is constant violence or if the refugee is also an exile (Nepali people who were exiled from Bhutan for example). Especially if they are middle class they will probably have resources to get back up on their feet.

Also I thought I should put this out there; the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia are some of the only nations not to sign the UN protocol for refugees. This means they legally have no obligation to help them even if they step on that soil. The rule is that if they walk on your land, you have to help them. So many countries are avoiding that by building a wall.

[Judean Zealot]

The rule is that if they walk on your land, you have to help them. So many countries are avoiding that by building a wall.

Yeah, we've got that problem here with Sudanese and Eritrean refugees. We keep them in internment camps because we don't have the resources to do anything more. Ultimately, the current arrangement is unsustainable.

[phuckphace]

Woah, I didn't know that globalist elites were puppeteering the continent and controlling the media. That doesn't seem irrational and crazy at all!! Seriously even if it was true, at this point we're screwed man just give up and coast the rest of your life out.

or: how I learned to stop worrying and love the status quo (I'm p.sure my mom will someday author a book with that title)

snark aside you're well aware the credential-free boat people are a real thing so it's required of you to justify the risk, not me

Nonetheless. (https://euobserver.com/migration/131062)

Germany is expecting to receive between 800,000 and 1 million asylum claims this year. The IFO economic institute said Tuesday that housing, feeding, educating and health-care for the migrants would cost €21.1 billion in 2015.

well it was certainly a loony proposal from the beginning - even if we ignore the attendant safety risks (more like "refujihadis" amirite?) it's obvious that 21 billion euros would be better blown on things other than feels

[Vlerchan]

[...] not even 50% are Syrians [...]
Let's then look to the citation of the International Organisation of Migration. It doesn't cite their report but rather cites the Council for Foreign Relations that doesn't cite the actual report either. I'm not to keen on scrolling through the IOM's database so I'm just going to cite the UN (http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php). It reports that 51% of migrants that crossed the Mediterranean are from Syria, 20% are from Afghanistan, 6% are Iraqi, 4% are Eritrean. That's 80% coming from states that one would be hard-pressed to refer to migrants from as economic immigrants. The rest of the countries mentioned all contribute a negligible amount, though being that these face their own crisises, it's not difficult to imagine that these were displaced too.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3265334&postcount=74

:)

Poland,Romania,whatever,they all want to go to your country. And Nordic countries in some ways.
This - by the way - is because Northern European societies like Germany and Denmark and Sweden are more inclusive of immigrants in general and muslims in particular than the more xenophobic Eastern European societies.

It could work I suppose under the right control. It's a valid response to a pressing situation and, while it has flaws, so do many other policies of its kind I guess. I think it's a good idea for a compromise of sorts.
The most important point to note is that at the moment we have between one and two million refugees in Europe and more arriving as each day passes. I'm highly sceptical that deporting them all at this stage is too feasible even if we wanted to.

This is actually not true. Seeing as they are not citizens of the European countries they are appealing to, there is no obligation on European powers to help them or oversee their happiness even if it may be in some cases beneficial to the Europeans.
The states in the European Union have all signed up to a number of protocols regarding refugees and committed to helping those in need.

Before you say 'that's just international law: it's non-binding': for geopolitical reasons Europe is keen to have people follow international law and refusing to at this stage would undoubtedly undermine future efforts.

well it was certainly a loony proposal from the beginning - even if we ignore the attendant safety risks (more like "refujihadis" amirite?) it's obvious that 21 billion euros would be better blown on things other than feels
Oh I agree here. Just letting them pile into Berlin was madness from the beginning: entirely unsustainable.

[Exocet]

Vlerchan

Recent data from the UNHCR.

http://i.imgur.com/eomS5Dm.png

[Vlerchan]

Recent data from the UNHCR.
Can you link me to the report that it's lifted from please? I'd appreciate the link just to have it.

That's also a higher percentage of migrants coming from crisis zones than I originally cited nonetheless.

[Exocet]

Can you link me to the report that it's lifted from please? I'd appreciate the link just to have it.

That's also a higher percentage of migrants coming from crisis zones than I originally cited nonetheless.

It comes from the UNHCR.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

It also shows us that 58% of the "refugees" are men,25% are Children and 17% are women.

http://i.imgur.com/CCdYftZ.png

[Jinglebottom]

It also shows us that 58% of the "refugees" are men,25% are Children and 17% are women.

image (http://i.imgur.com/CCdYftZ.png)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXx4jQSWQAANwQP.jpg

[Vlerchan]

It comes from the UNHCR.
Thank you.

It also shows us that 58% of the "refugees" are men,25% are Children and 17% are women.
I have no idea why you're placing refugees in scare quotes when the data you presented supports the likelihood that these are refugees.

The male-female ration doesn't bother me. Odds are it's because these people come from patriarchal societies and thus resources are concentrated amongst men and thus there is less woman because of their lower likelihood of being able to afford the fare. The fact that most of them are young would indicate the likelihood of looser ties.

Men also probably have lower morality rates from the trek. It might also be the case that them being men increases their likelihood of taking the trek in the first place.

The hovering threat of conscription for men also acts as a bigger incentive to leave too.

[Porpoise101]

The male-female ration doesn't bother me. Odds are it's because these people come from patriarchal societies and thus resources are concentrated amongst men and thus there is less woman because of their lower likelihood of being able to afford the fare. The fact that most of them are young would indicate the likelihood of looser ties.
I can vouch for this. As a woman you are always bound to some sort of family. So are married men and children. If you are a young man, you may have familial ties, but you are already expected to go out. In most cases it's to seek a wife, but in this one it makes sense that they are fleeing Assad's forced conscription. Even those with families flee, secure a place, then bring over the wife and kids.

[Vlerchan]

This paper was published for an upcoming conference.

Tumen, S. (2016) The Economic Impact of Syrian Refugees on Host Countries: Quasi-Experimental Evidence from Turkey[/url]. Tumen works in the Turkish central bank. I tried linking to it but couldn't manage it. Please use google.

The findings are as follows.

There has been an influx of approx. 2.2 million refugees into Turkey.
Inflows into the treatment region reduces informal employment by 2.26 percent.
Inflows into the treatment region increase formal employment by 0.46 percent.
Most (57 percent of) displaced workers left the labour force. These were predominantly female workers.
There is no significant wage effect on for either formal or informal workers in the treatment region.
Prices have declined 2.5 percent.
In informal labour intensive markets the price decline is 4 percent.
In formal labour intensive markets the price decline was close to 0 percent.
Housing rents have increased 5.5 percent. But there was considerable heterogeneity.
The price of low-scale housing rents have increased just 1.7 percent.
The price of high scale housing rents have increased 11 percent.
I have no idea what typical elasticities are in Turkish markets. I'll need to look into that.

I can also attempt to elaborate on what I think the possible mechanism underlying the changes might be if people want.

[Stronk Serb]

Well, after the Cologne fiasco and that bitch of a mayor telling that essentially it's the womens' fault for not being careful because they were raped by a bunch of guys their government let in, I am more for walling them off. I know those were not migrants per se, but they come from a similar cultural area and as such pose a threat. I would also focus on sending humanitarian packages to people actually in the warzones who are suffering the most. Also send arms and organise some sort of volunteer regiments to go and fight in Syria against ISIS to uphold the legitimate government, Assad's government.

[Judean Zealot]

Stronk Serb

I'm for Assad too, but it's a bit of a stretch to call him 'legitimate'. :D

(Off topic, I know)

[Jinglebottom]

Aren't the Assad's just a bunch of dictators?

[phuckphace]

Well, after the Cologne fiasco and that bitch of a mayor telling that essentially it's the womens' fault for not being careful because they were raped by a bunch of guys their government let in, I am more for walling them off.

the response to that was hilariously predictable - blame the police instead of the government who decided it would be a good idea to admit eight hundred thousand randomers from Bumfuck, Sandland in the first place. my sympathy for people on the gay side of the Iron Curtain is rapidly eroding by the day, and yes, this is a situation where the victims were in fact "asking for it."

Aren't the Assad's just a bunch of dictators?

quite so, which isn't a bad thing. we're seeing more and more proof that towelhead societies will always flash into steamy anarchy without a totalitarian at the top to throw all his weight on the lid (daily reminder that Iraq's violent crime rate was very very low under Hussein). but you know, freedum

[Uniquemind]

Aren't the Assad's just a bunch of dictators?

Yes but at this point the issue isn't one of morality. It's one of stability.

But given that all we're doing is talking about our theories, and debating our ideas.


What might I ask has actually happened on this issue?

--

Unfortunately it has been shown that apparently the divide between Sunni's and Shitte's undermines social stability to a degree where they can't have nice things.

Look at Iran and Saudi Arabia.

The entire region is inflamed and it's due in part that both parties are stubborn about their particular interpretation of Islam, that they killed each other's loved ones over it, and once that happen that's enough to get a war going well...forever.

[Stronk Serb]

Stronk Serb

I'm for Assad too, but it's a bit of a stretch to call him 'legitimate'. :D

(Off topic, I know)

Well, he doesn't hold legitimacy over all of Syria, but he ensured stability in Syria before the war, so I'm vouching for him.

Aren't the Assad's just a bunch of dictators?

Well, yeah. They are the best choice for now. The "moderates" are swapping sides for ISIS, ISIS is... ISIS. The only one working on restoring the old order is Assad. I also have to salute the Kurds, ISIS shits their pants when the Kurds send the female-only units. Also the European Union should mediate talks after the war is concluded between the Kurd forces in Syria and the Syrian government about autonomy or even independence of the Kurd majority regions. It's a small part of Syria up north.

[Jinglebottom]

Better to have dictators as leaders rather than wahhabists, that's for sure.

[phuckphace]

Better to have dictators as leaders rather than wahhabists, that's for sure.

especially if the dictator in question is me or Trump

[Jinglebottom]

especially if the dictator in question is me or Trump
Let's hope you're better neighbors than Syrians. ;)

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah286/bobyo01/Syria_location_map.svg_zpscyzji8hl.png (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/Syria_location_map.svg_zpscyzji8hl.png.html)

[Judean Zealot]

Let's hope you're better neighbors than Syrians. ;)

image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/Syria_location_map.svg_zpscyzji8hl.png.html)

I notice phuck let us keep the Golan. :D

[phuckphace]

Let's hope you're better neighbors than Syrians. ;)

image (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/bobyo01/media/Syria_location_map.svg_zpscyzji8hl.png.html)

I notice phuck let us keep the Golan. :D

http://i.imgur.com/CmQuwJI.png

lel

[Judean Zealot]

image (http://i.imgur.com/CmQuwJI.png)

lel

Knows the way way to a man's heart, so he does.

[Porpoise101]

image (http://i.imgur.com/CmQuwJI.png)

lel
Good map, but I propose a few adjustments...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160108/25cf01ae7e535507b30b74803402b13d.jpg

[tovaris]

I personaly think this shows how incapable we are of guarding our borders. Countries like my own who want to close open borders were caught of guard by people coming frew the feelds. Makes me wonder how would we protect our selved from real danger.

Anywhoo we should house people who come from war torn regions and send back those who come from pecefull lands. It is my opinion tho we should fuly mix the new blod in, so it gest deluted beyond recognition in 2 generations. Countries are not stabile when ethicly unhomogen.

Send them back to سوريا

To Lebanon?

[Jinglebottom]

To Lebanon?
Hehehe, nice one.

[tovaris]

Hehehe, nice one.

Whell Lebabon is basicly a county refugee center at this point, so if we send them back, we send a lot there....

[Jinglebottom]

Whell Lebabon is basicly a county refugee center at this point, so if we send them back, we send a lot there....
Our doors are closed. One refugee was more than enough, let alone 25% of the population.

[tovaris]

Our doors are closed. One refugee was more than enough, let alone 25% of the population.

Yeah i dont think Lebanon can realy close its border, people will continue to come from syria.

But what i wanted to say is: if we send them back germany returns them to austria, austira returns to slovenia, sloveia to croatia and so on, i say send them foreward, to USA, they caused the shit, they should take them

I think we should tackle the root cause of the problem. We need to try and make peace in the East.
/.../

Exactly, but to do that we must embrace Asad and follow Russias leed.

[Exocet]

image (http://i.imgur.com/CmQuwJI.png)

lel

No greater Israel in your ideal ME ? I'm surprised.

[Jinglebottom]

Yeah i dont think Lebanon can realy close its border, people will continue to come from syria.
Sadly. It's funny how the Syrian scumbags came crawling back to us for help when they previously saw us as nothing but one of their colonies. That is, until we kicked their sorry asses out (after 29 god damn years).

[Vlerchan]

but he ensured stability in Syria before the war, so I'm vouching for him.
I'd like to point out that the war began as a popular uprising against him.

That's a real important consideration here.

The "moderates" are swapping sides for ISIS, ISIS is... ISIS.
The so-called moderates have also been forming up with Islamist groups.

But to the best of what I've gleamed it's not ISIL: it's the likes of aq-backed al nusra front.

Those should be steam-rolled regardless though.

[Porpoise101]

Anywhoo we should house people who come from war torn regions and send back those who come from pecefull lands. It is my opinion tho we should fuly mix the new blod in, so it gest deluted beyond recognition in 2 generations. Countries are not stabile when ethicly unhomogen.
Yeah I like this one the best, I mean that was what was intended for Europe in terms of refugees but now it has opened up to the undeserving and also human traffickers too. Moving people around can be quite nasty business I suppose.

[phuckphace]

https://www.rt.com/news/328278-cologne-nye-assaults-cover-up/

"Among the identity checks that were carried out, the majority of people were only able to produce evidence of registration as an asylum seeker from the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees [BAMF]," read a police report from January 2, according to Die Welt.

welp nothing a free university education can't fix amirite

[Vlerchan]

welp nothing a free university education can't fix amirite
It does seem that the middle east produces an unfortunate lack of gender studies majors/:

[Porpoise101]

https://www.rt.com/news/328278-cologne-nye-assaults-cover-up/



welp nothing a free university education can't fix amirite
I know it's anecdotal but all the middle aged Arabs I know are shop owners or doctors. So it could work if the refugees are either removed and/or they are spread thinly across the population. That way Europeans can adjust to the Arabs and the Arabs can adopt whatever ways the Europeans have.

[phuckphace]

I know it's anecdotal but all the middle aged Arabs I know are shop owners or doctors. So it could work if the refugees are either removed and/or they are spread thinly across the population. That way Europeans can adjust to the Arabs and the Arabs can adopt whatever ways the Europeans have.

I'd rather they go be doctors in their own countries and that Western governments would stop being cheap assholes and put our brightest native minds into STEM instead (win/win)

[Porpoise101]

I'd rather they go be doctors in their own countries and that Western governments would stop being cheap assholes and put our brightest native minds into STEM instead (win/win)
That's true. But in Detroit and the surrounding area, it's not like the native population is going to open businesses anytime soon. Some families move here from broken nations, build up some money, and then go to the Gulf States to retire. They do it as a family sometimes because they actually have closer familial ties (something I wish American culture hasn't lost). The same applies to some Indians.

[phuckphace]

That's true. But in Detroit and the surrounding area, it's not like the native population is going to open businesses anytime soon. Some families move here from broken nations, build up some money, and then go to the Gulf States to retire. They do it as a family sometimes because they actually have closer familial ties (something I wish American culture hasn't lost). The same applies to some Indians.

Detroit's only hope is in becoming fully militarized with 24/7 patrols by military police. reminder that it was once a jewel of American industry (like, during the 1950s) and descended into chaos after political correctness + neoliberalism took hold. if we ever get our shit together and do this, the whites who fled the rising tide will return, gentrify everything, and we can watch property values go up and the crime rate drop down to first-world levels. it's only a matter of will.

I really don't like the idea of Ausländers using our country as an opportunistic retirement fund. corporations will sponsor some randomer from the other side of the globe but will flip me a double bird when I try to get in on it too, and I'm a card-carrying native. only someone who has spent too much time in Comrade Lenin's Diploma Emporium doesn't think there's anything wrong with this picture.

[Porpoise101]

I really don't like the idea of Ausländers using our country as an opportunistic retirement fund. corporations will sponsor some randomer from the other side of the globe but will flip me a double bird when I try to get in on it too, and I'm a card-carrying native. only someone who has spent too much time in Comrade Lenin's Diploma Emporium doesn't think there's anything wrong with this picture.
It sounds disloyal, but they pay taxes and improve the communities with their businesses. And if they don't move they raise Americanized kids who actually have a drive to work and make something of themselves. There is a stereotype of the Asian nerd, and that is somewhat true with 1st gen ones. But it's also true for the Arabs, Greeks, Albanians, and other recent immigrants in my area. But it is wrong that they treat natives poorly. I'm just saying skilled immigrants aren't something to sneeze at.

[phuckphace]

"they pay taxes" - discontinued reading there

[Porpoise101]

"they pay taxes" - discontinued reading there
So supporting a dying environment is a bad thing? I don't understand. If they have skills and a native doesn't, then the skilled should prevail. That being said, natives shouldn't really lack in skills.

[james wolf]

"they pay taxes" - discontinued reading there

Why exactly? Scared of the truth?


http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/04/16/Study-Finds-Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-118B-Taxes

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2014/12/02/How-Immigrants-Boost-US-Economic-Growth

[Vlerchan]

I know it's anecdotal but all the middle aged Arabs I know are shop owners or doctors.
I can remember reading a news article which claimed that immigrants and refugees tended to have a higher rate of self-employment. I can't find that replicated in a journal article or report though. Least a contemporary one. The one I found did support your hypothesis though.

I also thought I'd dump some of the findings about the economic impact of immigrants whilst I was here.

Hong and McLaren (2015) (https://www.nber.org/papers/w21123) found that each immigrant created 1.2 local jobs and most of them went to native workers: 62% of these jobs were in the non-tradable sector. This sector also saw an increase in wages.
Foged and Peri (2014) (http://www.economics.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/files/events/peri%20paper.pdf) examine the period of 1991 - 2008 and the impact of large inflows of non-European immigrants on Denmark. The predominant national groups were the Turkish - Iraqis - Somalians - [and Bosnians]. It resulted in increased or unchanged wages for natives and left unemployment unchanged.
Foged and Peri (2015) (http://ftp.iza.org/dp8961.pdf) examine the period of 1991 - 2008 and the impact of large inflows of immigrants on Denmark. It found that the influx of immigrants tended to push low-wage natives into higher-wage employment. It found increases in wages - employment levels - and occupational mobility for natives as a result.
Cortes (2004) (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=524605) studied the performance of refugees as compared to economic immigrants. She found that whilst refugees had lesser economic outcomes on arrival there was a substantial improvement for the same refugees over the course of the decade: during which the performance of the same economic immigrants was surpassed.
Ottaviano and Peri (2005) (http://repec.org/esNASM04/up.1376.1073610733.pdf) found that immigrants increased both wages and rents in metropolitan areas. However there presence was a net positive effect on economic welfare.

[Jinglebottom]

Welp, me trying to give a little Syrian/Palestinian girl a dollar resulted in her bluntly stating "I don't want money, I want ice cream damn it!". I thought it was cute so I let her keep the dollar anyway. I guess I'll have to start handing out ice cream cones next time, since they clearly value that way more than money. Doesn't really add anything to the conversation but since this is a thread about refugees so I thought I'd share it lol.

Maybe this makes for some sort of advice: next time, appease them not with money, but with sweet, chocolate-flavored ice cream.

[Exocet]

Welp, me trying to give a little Syrian/Palestinian girl a dollar resulted in her bluntly stating "I don't want money, I want ice cream damn it!". I thought it was cute so I let her keep the dollar anyway. I guess I'll have to start handing out ice cream cones next time, since they clearly value that way more than money. Doesn't really add anything to the conversation but since this is a thread about refugees so I thought I'd share it lol.

Maybe this makes for some sort of advice: next time, appease them not with money, but with sweet, chocolate-flavored ice cream.

I hope you aren't providing them slow internet !

[Jinglebottom]

I hope you aren't providing them slow internet !
They shall be treated better than Lebanese natives.

[phuckphace]

Why exactly? Scared of the truth?

http://i.imgur.com/Ci6vdDb.png

yes Hamid I'm well aware they pay taxes. in usual fashion the apologists cherry-pick one marginal economic benefit while ignoring the externalities that come with flooding the country with millions of foreigners. Detroit is a microcosm for the stultifying effects of third-world immigration - the bad will drive out the good, and immigrants lack our culture and values that made our former arrangement sustainable.

you people seriously believe that an Indian with faked credentials from an Indian diploma mill can create the same quality as a trained native, or that our economy is in dire need of a few million more corner store operators or dishwashers (who come here at age 40, wash dishes for 10 years and then collect Social Security) :lol3:

So supporting a dying environment is a bad thing? I don't understand. If they have skills and a native doesn't, then the skilled should prevail. That being said, natives shouldn't really lack in skills.

the narrative pushed by corporations is that there simply aren't enough qualified natives, which is such transparent bullshit that it beggars belief (pun intended). they've been nailed numerous times going out of their way to avoid hiring natives even when there's a line of them. why is that?

I'll repeat it for the thousandth time: modern immigration is the corporate replacement for 19th century slavery - cheap labor at any cost without regard for the consequences. the end result is corporate oligarchy lording it over 400 million mystery-meat peons. fuck that and anyone who thinks it's a good idea.

[Porpoise101]

you people seriously believe that an Indian with faked credentials from an Indian diploma mill can create the same quality as a trained native, or that our economy is in dire need of a few million more corner store operators or dishwashers (who come here at age 40, wash dishes for 10 years and then collect Social Security) [emoji38]3:



the narrative pushed by corporations is that there simply aren't enough qualified natives, which is such transparent bullshit that it beggars belief (pun intended). they've been nailed numerous times going out of their way to avoid hiring natives even when there's a line of them. why is that?

I'll repeat it for the thousandth time: modern immigration is the corporate replacement for 19th century slavery - cheap labor at any cost without regard for the consequences. the end result is corporate oligarchy lording it over 400 million mystery-meat peons. fuck that and anyone who thinks it's a good idea.
Ok first of all it's not like the workers are necessarily "faked" as you put it. Some of these foreign universities are good and many who can afford to come here are at least educated and middle class as they have to have enough financial security to make the move. They aren't necessarily like Mexicans who are low skilled farm hands.

That being said I have heard about what you are describing, but it has only been found in tech companies for the most part. And of those it's been found mostly in those corporate giants like Oracle and Microsoft. I'm not saying that this is right though. And neither does the government as far as I know. I believe in one case they used affirmative action in favor of a white person who got rejected in Microsoft.

Last you say we don't need any more corner stores. But I would say that is incorrect. In fact, we need more in cities. These shops are sometimes the only stores in the area and provide a much needed outlet for food. Many of the larger food shops have pulled out of the cities, creating 'urban food islands'. So in a way, immigrants reduce hunger. I'd say that is a good consequence.

[phuckphace]

fucking lol "we need immigrants to set up shops in the ghetto because white people moved out to avoid being shot and killed by Donkey Cartel & crew" :lol3: :lol3: my sides!

not to start another India diss but it's well documented that most H1B Indian nationals are prolific liars and cheats, wonder why this is? could it be because the corporations want cheap slaves for a dime a dozen and don't bother to vet the applicants? if they cherry picked all the Hudors and Porpoises they'd have to pay them the same as a native would ask for, and then what would be the point? the only reason MS has a hard-on for mumbling Dalits is: robot-workers with full-featured AI haven't hit the market yet. period. stop shilling.

you can see how this a horribly convoluted patch-up deemed "necessary" because the alternative would require some triggeringly nationalist solutions and possibly fewer shekels for MS and Oracle. the horror!

[Porpoise101]

fucking lol "we need immigrants to set up shops in the ghetto because white people moved out to avoid being shot and killed by Donkey Cartel & crew" [emoji38]3: [emoji38]3: my sides!
Without a military occupation these guys providing support and employment for the city are the only way to make it recover enough for people to move back in. And it won't cost as many lives or money. It will just go slower.

[phuckphace]

Without a military occupation these guys providing support and employment for the city are the only way to make it recover enough for people to move back in. And it won't cost as many lives or money. It will just go slower.

http://i.imgur.com/SmXcVjo.jpg

any day now

[Porpoise101]

image (http://i.imgur.com/SmXcVjo.jpg)

any day now
At least they are trying to move past bankruptcy. They are making less stupid moves too in comparison to other Michigan towns. They aren't Flint who had lead in the drinking water, knew about it, and only started acting last month. A whole generation of kids there will be stunted mentally.