Atheists vs Religion?

[Tesserax]

I have a question to all atheists here; do you guys hate religion and theists, or do you just hate the religious nuts who reject science and all logical processes? Personally, I hate those idiots who preach bullshit myself, they're a taint on the actual intent of holy books such as the bible, which ultimately comes down to "Do not be a dickhead, and believe in God" for most religions. On youtube I see a lot of Atheists mocking religious people, and I'm not sure if they have contempt for just these idiots, or the whole of the religion itself, and I'd be glad to know which it is, no matter how harsh the truth.

[phuckphace]

New Atheists (more like GNU-atheists) are ridiculous and need to be mocked and derided whenever they open their mouths.

there's nothing inherent in atheism or secularism that precludes acceptance of religion - atheists vs. religion is a contrived "divide and conquer" facet of the Kulturkampf.

[sqishy]

Let me just say that the term 'atheism' has been incorrectly used for a long time - and I don't think it as just evolution of word-meaning. Many 'atheists' are in fact anti-theists, they oppose god(s) with force (i.e. intellectual), some doing so by involving a lot of aspects of their socio-political lives, etc. One large example would be Richard Dawkins. I view it as a form of extremism. It is not evolution of word-meanings, it is the assumption that what atheism literally means is equivalent to what it is intended to mean, least partly.


Atheism, however, means simply living without the belief (or lack of belief) of god becoming relevant. Theism is simply not relevant in one's life, least to the degree that they do not form opinions for or against it and back it up. Actual atheists are (I'm half-guessing) a minority, while antitheists are many in number. Atheism is not agnosticism - atheism just means 'without god' or 'no god'. Lack of belief for a god does not equal to belief in the lack of a god.

'Atheism'/antitheism is the belief that no god exists. That is their view; it is NOT the absence of a belief in god - they have the belief that there isn't one. Not so non-religious then, are we?

It is a form of faith. I have no issues with that inherently, but with the whole intended 'atheism' collective model, it sure is hypocritical, and/or double-standard.

I find this whole 'science V religion' dichotomy-war thing to be silly, pointless, and founded on simple-minded presumptious beliefs. There is more to life than dividing and conquering others' viewpoints - both the antitheists and e.g. evangelicals are guilty of that. Many people in this war of sorts have, at the least, a subconscious view that they are better or somewhat entitled than the opposition, e.g. mental capacities. I don't want the argument that 'atheism' promotes peace, because there were political regimes which were antitheist/anti-religious and effectively purged culture and artistic expression in place for love for the state. No, I don't have the stats with me, and if you want to look it up, by all means do.

It's extremism fighting itself through two sides of the same thing - ignorance (in one of both senses of the term), with misplaced priorities (whatever the severity; political ideologies, educational missions, or personal insulting). It is not needed from anyone. Religion is not fundamentally evil or bad. Science is not. The view that they somehow are a black-white clash, is real simplistic. Too many assumptions, and too much of a mess.
Cut the shit out (I don't say it often). Is this all that so many people do?

I would gladly give Dawkins and Trump a good whack between the legs. (Trump I could kill, though; not relevant here though.)

[Babs]

I don't hate religion. I don't understand it, nor do I care to take part in it, but that's just me.

I'm all for people living their life however the hell they want, as long as they're not hurting others. Their religious beliefs or lack thereof is none of my business. I don't give a shit as long as nobody makes it my business, not that many people do in the first place.

[Uniquemind]

I don't hate religion. I don't understand it, nor do I care to take part in it, but that's just me.

I'm all for people living their life however the hell they want, as long as they're not hurting others. Their religious beliefs or lack thereof is none of my business. I don't give a shit as long as nobody makes it my business, not that many people do in the first place.

Problem is few acknowledge the truth that ones very existence technically hurts another person, because one requires resources to exist denying those resources to another.

Nobody is self-sustaining, which is the truth behind why many Abrahamic religions say we're evil. (Ex: Christianity does this).

[StoppingTom]

I have nothing against religion, though it has always been misused for more nefarious reasons, I just don't see the likelihood of a Great Omnipotent Diety existing. And don't even get me started on the atheists that are "euphoric, for in this moment they are enlightened by their own intelligence, not that of a phony god" or whatever. Just live like Bill and Ted intended and be excellent to others.

[Babs]

Problem is few acknowledge the truth that ones very existence technically hurts another person, because one requires resources to exist denying those resources to another.

Nobody is self-sustaining, which is the truth behind why many Abrahamic religions say we're evil. (Ex: Christianity does this).

If you consider disagreeing with somebody hurtful, then sure. I don't see how that actively hurts anybody though.

[phuckphace]

Paraxiom - recently I had a similar discussion with an older coworker who's a Christian - thanks to that "religion vs secularism" narrative they're always floored when they encounter a non-religious person who isn't 1000% angry and spiteful about it. I had to explain to her that most atheists don't actually spend their day railing against religious faith and that those who do are a minority positively selected for by the Internet. I also pointed out that those New Atheists are routinely mocked on the Internet even by other non-religious folks, surprising her again.

it's situations like this where we can ~make a difference~ even if it's just on a personal level. I use every opportunity I can to have this discussion with my main point being that we're both Americans and there are bigger things than the Kulturkampf. the media wants to turn Das Volk against one another, and we can't let them win.

[Jinglebottom]

Just don't treat me as if I was sent here by Satan and we're good.

[nickcj12]

I'm an atheist and I don't mock religious beliefs, everybody has a right to believe in some kind of religion or not but I hate it when people say I'm going to hell or treat me like I'm hell on earth

[sqishy]

Paraxiom - recently I had a similar discussion with an older coworker who's a Christian - thanks to that "religion vs secularism" narrative they're always floored when they encounter a non-religious person who isn't 1000% angry and spiteful about it. I had to explain to her that most atheists don't actually spend their day railing against religious faith and that those who do are a minority positively selected for by the Internet. I also pointed out that those New Atheists are routinely mocked on the Internet even by other non-religious folks, surprising her again.

it's situations like this where we can ~make a difference~ even if it's just on a personal level. I use every opportunity I can to have this discussion with my main point being that we're both Americans and there are bigger things than the Kulturkampf. the media wants to turn Das Volk against one another, and we can't let them win.

Absolutely, the majority of 'atheists'/actual atheists are not in any position ready to launch an offensive, or assume they are better than the other. I don't want to make generalisations.

Personally, I don't debate with someone to convert them to my views. I simply present mine to them, and theirs to me. Ideas are presented, not launched at the other like bouncing bombs, expecting casualties and/or victory. The opposition should always be respected in some sufficient way - it's not some rulebook-like etiquette or whatever (not for me - I do it but not for itself), it's just being a decent person. Keep it simple and calm.

I have thought many times that perhaps all this in-fighting is another intended convenient side-venting for the population to use up their energy, rather than at the state. Would make some sense. It's not me being paranoid or anything, it's just another idea (more political, but this thread is related enough). I have other ideas about this topic and related, but step by step for now.

[Porpoise101]

New Atheists (more like GNU-atheists) are ridiculous and need to be mocked and derided whenever they open their mouths.

there's nothing inherent in atheism or secularism that precludes acceptance of religion - atheists vs. religion is a contrived "divide and conquer" facet of the Kulturkampf.
I know many atheists and most are kind respectful people like how anyone else is. However I found my friend watching one of these people's videos and they are toxic, divisive, and bad for society. I turned him away from such hostilities, but I'm not certain that people my age will be able to resist these enticing ideas of (a)religious supremacy.

[Sir Suomi]

Meh, depends on the person and their environment. Personally, I live in the good ol' Bible Belt of America, meaning there is a fairly large amount of people who are fairly serious about their religious ideals. One that pops to my head would be my wrestling coach who, for better or worse, sources both his philosophical and political beliefs from the Bible. In other words, strong opponent of opposite religions especially Islam, opponent of gay marriage, opponent of evolution, etc. As an agnostic, you can imagine how many fun debates I have with him. And note, I said agnostic and not atheist. I still leave an open mind towards the possibility of some divine force, although I'm skeptical at best. Honestly, I don't mind if someone is religious, I often just don't want to hear people spewing out their "Jesus Love" propaganda. It's quite awkward when someone tries to question me about my own faith, and I have to try and find a way to not offend them while at the same time explaining that I really just don't care.

Long story short, if you don't bother me or anyone else with it, I could care less about who or what you worshiped.

[Uniquemind]

Meh, depends on the person and their environment. Personally, I live in the good ol' Bible Belt of America, meaning there is a fairly large amount of people who are fairly serious about their religious ideals. One that pops to my head would be my wrestling coach who, for better or worse, sources both his philosophical and political beliefs from the Bible. In other words, strong opponent of opposite religions especially Islam, opponent of gay marriage, opponent of evolution, etc. As an agnostic, you can imagine how many fun debates I have with him. And note, I said agnostic and not atheist. I still leave an open mind towards the possibility of some divine force, although I'm skeptical at best. Honestly, I don't mind if someone is religious, I often just don't want to hear people spewing out their "Jesus Love" propaganda. It's quite awkward when someone tries to question me about my own faith, and I have to try and find a way to not offend them while at the same time explaining that I really just don't care.

Long story short, if you don't bother me or anyone else with it, I could care less about who or what you worshiped.

I had a similar situation debating a teacher, actually a substitute teacher, on the issue of global warming.

He got so obsessed about trying to win the debate with me and saying global warming was a made up issue, he completely forgot about the lesson plan.

He got red-faced and everything, and he went off on some tangent which clearly demonstrated he had no understanding of ecological food chain and it's impact on jobs, especially the fisheries and restaurants.

It all started because one of the math word problems mentioned calculating rising sea levels too using algebra.

---

Needless to say I think whenever you have a belief system that causes one to be fixated on a set inflexible point of view, you get a type of religion, which I would also like to say is different from a faith.

Religion imho is much more rigid, dogmatic, contains ritualistic customs that young children don't understand because the abstract concepts are actually so complex a child will not understand them.

Faith is much more instinctual.

[Tesserax]

Thank you all for your responses. This has actually been quite enlightening, and I like the description that "Many 'Atheists' are actually just anti-theists". I know a couple of atheists myself who don't care that I'm christian, it's just that a lot of the time I see people on youtube preaching hate against christians. So I guess you guys are right in that it's extremist vs extremist, not a true believer of either cause, just a hater of the other

[phuckphace]

Debates on religion in general will always be a difficult topic to discuss. Anyway, you may want to look into this article (http://www.sharefaith.com/guide/christian-apologetics/christian-arguments-against-atheism.html) too.

Atheism declares that there is no god.

this isn't (quite) true. agnostic atheists such as myself believe there is no God but also that this is unknowable for certain.

really though, agnostic atheists are the only kind of atheist there is. people who claim to know that God is certain to not exist are wrong.

[Judean Zealot]

really though, agnostic atheists are the only kind of atheist there is. people who claim to know that God is certain to not exist are wrong.

This is not entirely true. There is a trend in the philosophical community to assert that God (at least in the traditional sense) is a self-defeating premise, and as such cannot possibly exist. I believe Bleid was of this opinion as well.

The problem with the article is that (besides for bastardising the philosophical arguments) they fail to address anything between the two extremes of objective nihilism and full blown, doctrinal Christianity, which is, well, idiotic.

[phuckphace]

The problem with the article is that (besides for bastardising the philosophical arguments) they fail to address anything between the two extremes of objective nihilism and full blown, doctrinal Christianity, which is, well, idiotic.

I suppose this is what I was objecting to. atheism = nihilism seems to be their favorite meme.

[Judean Zealot]

I suppose this is what I was objecting to. atheism = nihilism seems to be their favorite meme.

You can thank Dawkins and Hitchens for that.

What annoys me is the "Theism=Christian" meme that both pop-Christians and new atheists tend to fall into.

[phuckphace]

You can thank Dawkins and Hitchens for that.

oh, and thanks to these two we have another annoying meme: atheism = secular humanism or some other feelgood/duty-free value system.

I've also been preached at by GNU-atheists for my racialist views (haven't you read a SCIENCE! book, bigot?!) ironic, because SCIENCE! is a prerequisite for racialism. it really gets them steamed when I call them "secular creationists." :D

[ska8er]

While reading all of these responses up above we all have
a gathering of religious atheists and theologians here.
Interesting reading tho.

Im Catholic and I believe in God and really if someone
doesn't believe in some other power its on their own
conscience. I don't force my beliefs on someone else.

Where r we in the scheme of things? Everything about space.
How can space go on forever? Whats beyond space?

Does anyone think like this? Its mind boggling.

[amgb]

I'm not sure what I am, since I'm open to the existence of god, but I don't exactly believe in it. I don't hate religion at all, however when religious people try to force their views and beliefs onto me...that's a whole different story. This is how I see it; religion, belief in the supernatural, lies on a parallel with science and logic. They are both two lines going forward and minding their own business, and it is only when something is proved to be right or wrong that these two lines will meet and go forward as one. Then again, it's difficult to prove anything, even with science. We can't a hundred percent prove that extraterrestrial life forms are out there in space, yet we still believe in it. Now, for atheists mocking or ridiculing theists and other religions that's a bit harsh and not really necessary. We all need to be more open to what others think and where they place their beliefs in. Personally I believe in the afterlife, and branching from that I've come to believe in karma, ghosts, and the soul. I'm not for and against anything, but I do hold a certain extent of respect to the religions.

[phuckphace]

Does anyone think like this? Its mind boggling.

sometimes. it's interesting to me how science has answered so many questions about our own origins and the origins of the celestial objects in the Universe, but then you go back far enough to the Big Bang and it's just one huge "?"

I have a deist friend who believes in a supernatural creator-being who set everything in motion with the Big Bang, i.e. the Big Bang was Creation. it's a very interesting argument, almost tempting enough to make a deist out of me too.

[Judean Zealot]

I have a deist friend who believes in a supernatural creator-being who set everything in motion with the Big Bang, i.e. the Big Bang was Creation. it's a very interesting argument, almost tempting enough to make a deist out of me too.

Are you talking about me? :P

At this point I'm already some peculiar form of Deist, with Stoic, Platonic, and Mosaic influence.

[phuckphace]

Are you talking about me? :P

At this point I'm already some peculiar form of Deist, with Stoic, Platonic, and Mosaic influence.

uh woah wait wut

I thought you were a full-on theist this whole time!

but to answer your question, nope, someone I know from work.

[Judean Zealot]

uh woah wait wut

I thought you were a full-on theist this whole time!

I maintain and propagate full blown Judaism for utilitarian purposes- the rituals and symbolism have had way more staying power than say the Platonic rituals or the Eleusinian mysteries. I am inclined to consider "the will of God" through the lens of rationalism, and claims of special revelation don't really mean much to me. The Jewish nation is consecrated to me by the mission they have assumed of being "a light unto the nations", and my work is to help further that task. Whether it can possibly succeed - I do not know, but it is the mission that concerns me, not it's results.

I told you I'm a heretic! :P

[phuckphace]

I maintain and propagate full blown Judaism for utilitarian purposes- the rituals and symbolism have had way more staying power than say the Platonic rituals and the Eleusinian mysteries. I am inclined to consider "the will of God" through the lens of rationalism, and claims of special revelation don't really mean much to me.

ah, gotcha. I'm sort of the Christian equivalent I suppose. then again you're a level 89 archdruid at this theology stuff and meanwhile I have no idea what I'm reading half the time when I pick up Aquinas.

I told you I'm a heretic! :P

wanna come over to my place and get stoned?

[Judean Zealot]

ah, gotcha. I'm sort of the Christian equivalent I suppose. then again you're a level 89 archdruid at this theology stuff and meanwhile I have no idea what I'm reading half the time when I pick up Aquinas.

Most of classical theology is applicable independent of revelatory claims, and even revelation is technically true in a more holistic sense of human enlightenment perceived as divine illumination. It's definitely useful for children and laypeople. Many of things I would teach less educated people I consider to be merely a stepping stone, so that the encoded truth can be transmitted on to posterity. It's a bit cynical, I know, but I consider it necessary for even the loftiest ideas to be expressible to even the most ignorant.

If you look over this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227991) you'll see how I encode my ideas in seemingly pious statements.

wanna come over to my place and get stoned?

No thanks! :D

I have to keep these ideas quiet at least until I have a small following, because as soon as they get public I will probably be excommunicated and that sort of thing.

[Vlerchan]

I told you I'm a heretic!
Whilst I'd heard this: I'm with phuckphace: uh woah wait wut.

[...] because as soon as they get public I will probably be excommunicated and that sort of thing.
Is this all that common with the masses?

I'm still technically a member of the Catholic Church and it's been a long time since I'd any semblance of belief.

[Judean Zealot]

Whilst I'd heard this: I'm with phuckphace: uh woah wait wut.

Well, I'm out of the VT closet. :D


Is this all that common with the masses?

They make a racket, ban your books, and get your kids thrown out of religious schools. There's no formal religious excommunication but there is a conscious movement to ostracise those who speak against traditionalism. I've been warned by people several times that I'm on my way.

I'm still technically a member of the Catholic Church and it's been a long time since I'd any semblance of belief.

Technically speaking, I remain broadly Jewish in my belief system. It's just acknowledged as an utilitarian means to a transcendent end.

[northy]

I don't hate religion. I think it's wrong but I'm not going to try to change people's beliefs because I believe in freedom of thought and speech. Most atheists just don't care and have better things to do.

[FangBang]

I don't understand why people are even still talking about religion these days. It's just a topic that has been talked over a billion times already. Why would you even care about what other people belive?