San Bernandino debate thread.

[Uniquemind]

The complimentary thread for debates and discussion regarding mass shooting tragedies, in the context of post-Paris, post-San Bernandino.


Discuss all hypothetical security measures that are worth enacting (state border searches for all states etc. to enforce state gun law restrictions, ammo tax, purchase tracking red flag algorithm retailers can use, smart gun tech, privacy rights being abolished regarding to travel and online viewing content, discussion of monitors of religious communities, as safety precautions.

Are communities or extended family of suspects, due more scrutiny if one of them becomes a problem to society? Is one's social network responsible for an individuals moral failure to society?

What can be done about it?


Baring personal attacks, I recognize this topic has the potential for lots of intense discussions, I request that all who participate agree not to take anything personally in this thread as a personal attack.

All topics should be discussed using logic and using 3rd person.

[HUSTLEMAN]

Let us be honest, we can discuss probable and logical ways in order to prevent such acts of violence. However as long as we have the same people in power, those who will not allow for real change due to financial coffers of PACS that support little to no restrictions of the availability of guns. Until this change, then talk to me about ways to prevent this from happening on a daily basis.

[Vlerchan]

I have a difficult time seeing the San Bernandino shooting and the Paris shooting as being similar given the current information available. It's a post-Paris world, and it's a post-Bernandino world, but given the diverging inspirations that seem to exist, not to mention the relevant socioeconomic and politico-cultural backgrounds differing, it's difficult to see similarities drawn other than we'd Muslims (and fundamentalists, probably), and people got shot. Like, is there some important reason for not throwing in post-Sandy Hook, or post-whatever mass shooting more than likely occurred today, or last week, or three weeks ago, or the likelihood being whatever day of the week it's decided to point to.

I guess one thing we can agree on, is that diverging firearm regulations across a borderless zone is untenable, in particular in zones where these rampages seem in-built in the national psych for whatever reason.

[Sir Suomi]

Let us be honest, we can discuss probable and logical ways in order to prevent such acts of violence. However as long as we have the same people in power, those who will not allow for real change due to financial coffers of PACS that support little to no restrictions of the availability of guns. Until this change, then talk to me about ways to prevent this from happening on a daily basis.

That's funny in all actuality the shooters used semi-automatic rifles that were actually illegally modified. And the man passed the strict background checks. And the shooting took place in a "Gun Free Zone". Also, pretty sure it's illegal to kill people in cold blood like this. And it's also looking like this man was a radicalized muslim.

But no, it's dah scawy guns.

Seriously people. Laws aren't going to stop shit like this from happening.

[Uniquemind]

Do we need to invent real time artificial tracking of all individuals including their in real time purchase history.


Common denominators is that people who do this don't just buy 1 gun or 2, they buy a whole host of supplies.

Surely there can be some meta-data red flag system, that can also be publicly released so we can all see what our neighbors are all doing.

No anonymity, all public all the time, yet not socialism-communism because we're still allowing individual property rights.

1. Oh you traveled to a foreign country recently, wait _ number years before passing a back ground check

2. Oh you said this on Facebook or another social media outlet, that disqualifies you from doing this.

Like this just means our data and reactions are too slow in the age of the internet, that's at least part of the problem.

Access to guns is another, and the lack of mental health services and big money pill pushers within psychiatry, with a low emphasis on therapy in America is also fueling the problem too if you look at this from different angles.

[DriveAlive]

This attack was because of Islamic terrorists, not because of guns. If we ban all guns and enacted the ridiculuous surveillance recommended above, they terrorists will just use bombs. We need a way to stop radicals from entering the country.

[phuckphace]

split this from the thread in da Chronic because I got a tingle in my sixth sense telling me I was in before the lock

I was stating that mental health care and the problems affecting people in USA were one of the main reasons that these shootings also keep occurring.

yes mental health needs serious attention in America but you're forgetting that spree killings by mentally unstable folks (i.e. white school shooters) are only a small, some might say minuscule, percentage of the total tally of gun violence. I asked, "who's the guy holding the gun?" rhetorically for a reason. I made a tl;dr thread explaining this in detail - a better approach is to get our police state on and start cracking skulls in the war zones that are America's cities. if we did this, as South Africa once did, and to awesome effect might I add, our gun crime rate would drop dramatically even if we defunded all loony bins and turned them loose on the street.

have a look-see at the article I posted - here we can see a terminally bad case of cognitive dissonance on display, wherein the author underscores the HORRIFIC racism of SA while giving clear evidence that it was dramatically less horrific in reality on the very next line. basically it's saying "heil if you wanna stick around a while" without actually admitting it.

I also said that by proxy gun control would HELP, not that it would completely eliminate the problem or just eliminate a lot of the crime right away, only someone extremely idealistic or shitposty would say or suggest that. My statistics were in response to ProfessionalRussian saying that gun control wasn't the solution, I disagree thinking that it is quite a large part of the solution while also making sure you have a healthy, responsible and knowledgeable populace.

there are certainly some people who fit the description in bold only problem is our current economic arrangement has stopped selecting for them and instead the segments of the population that commit the biggest chunk of gun crime continue to grow. it's such a pity that the Left has to expend all their creative energy into dreaming up these gigantic convoluted balls of red tape as a "solution" for politicized problems when the other solution is so much simpler and elegant. did you know that a very conservative society like we once had didn't need a bunch of restrictive laws because most people never thought of committing violent crimes to begin with? gun control isn't popular in the US because as a second-rate blanket solution, it needlessly harasses many hundreds of thousands if not millions of mentally sound, responsible citizens who own guns but don't commit murder. why is this? the other approach requires eyes that permit them to see, and the Weltanschauung of gun-grabbers does not.

People are more confident and are more likely to get into a violent situation with a knife rather than a point rock or glass shard.

you completely misunderstood my point. if you are the type who is going to stab someone to death and don't have access to a sheet of metal and a CNC machine, there are ~infinite~ other ways to find or make an object sharp enough to plunge into an artery. meanwhile in real life the stabbers keep stabbing while cops harass normal people. what's so difficult to grasp about that?

[Rydar8]

one thing about this attack is that it was a terrorist attack. now everyone in american is debating about un control but evryone forgets that if terrorists want guns they wil get guns, no matter how many laws are passed.

This attack was because of Islamic terrorists, not because of guns. If we ban all guns and enacted the ridiculuous surveillance recommended above, they terrorists will just use bombs. We need a way to stop radicals from entering the country.

i agree with you but it stopping radicals from entering the coutry is unlikely. Preident Obama said it was unamerican to stop immigration etc. so immingration reform is unlikely

[Vlerchan]

No anonymity, all public all the time, yet not socialism-communism because we're still allowing individual property rights.
I'm not sure what this achieves above and beyond the current programme.

I'll also level more fundamental criticisms once an actual function is established.

1. Oh you traveled to a foreign country recently, wait _ number years before passing a back ground check
i.e. Eliminate the presumption of innocence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_v._United_States). There should at least be scope to pose an explanation.

2. Oh you said this on Facebook or another social media outlet, that disqualifies you from doing this.
i.e. Eliminate the first amendment.

I'm not arguing that these are inherent goods or bad. I don't believe that's the case. What I'm arguing is that groups engage in warfare because there's a held perception that their modes of living are incompatible and violence is required to secure them. Eliminating the foundations of liberal-democratic-government dilutes the entire basis of the U.S. as a political project.

Upholding human existence for the sake of human existence is as meaningless as it gets.

---

This attack was because of Islamic terrorists, not because of guns.
The fact that fundamentalist Muslims led this attack doesn't invalidate that it's just like all the other mass shootings that occurred.

Just to mention though there's no reason to presume that Islamism motivated the attacks yet.

---

That's funny in all actuality the shooters used semi-automatic rifles that were actually illegally modified.
Where the modification purchased illegally?

And the man passed the strict background checks.
Surely this indicates that the background check wasn't strict enough.

The FBI were aware he was in contact with Islamists a number of years ago but this would never be considered in a background check.

Also, pretty sure it's illegal to kill people in cold blood like this.
Good spot.

[Dalton_Holt]

It was three white men.

[Judean Zealot]

It was three white men.

...and?

[Dalton_Holt]

...and?

I was partly joking, but three eye witnesses have said they saw three white men doing the shooting. No eye witnesses said they saw a man and woman. The building was also regularly used for shooting drills by the police department. The dead bodies of the supposed "shooters" were actually handcuffed. Why would you handcuff a dead body? Personally I don't trust anything the mainstream media says so I don't know what really happened.

[Judean Zealot]

I was partly joking, but three eye witnesses have said they saw three white men doing the shooting. No eye witnesses said they saw a man and woman. The building was also regularly used for shooting drills by the police department. The dead bodies of the supposed "shooters" were actually handcuffed. Why would you handcuff a dead body? Personality I don't trust anything the mainstream media says so I don't know what really happened.

[citation needed]

[phuckphace]

>I don't trust anything the Western media says
>why doesn't the Western media report on Africa more?

please, continue...

[Dalton_Holt]

[citation needed]

Plot Holes: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/12/06/holes/

1st Eye Witness: http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/12/eyewitness-to-san-bernardino/#

2nd Eye Witness: http://icymirss.tumblr.com/post/134691572675/another-witness-to-san-bernardino-shooting

3rd Eye Witness: http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/12/eyewitness-to-san-bernardino-says-it-wasnt-couple/

Shooting Drills: http://www.naturalnews.com/052196_active_shooter_drills_San_Bernardino_shooting_Inland_Regional_Center.html

[phuckphace]

...thus spake Alex Jones

[Judean Zealot]

I stopped after reading this in the first article.

If we ever hear: “This just in! Radical Muslim terrorists have slaughtered Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Dov Zakheim, and the other architects of the genocidal War on Islam in General and Palestine in Particular launched by the 9/11 inside job,” I just might believe it. Until that day, we are safe in assuming that the increasingly ridiculous stories of alleged radical Islamist attacks on random civilians that no Muslim would ever want to harm – like virtually all alleged Islamic terror plots since 9/11, according to Aaronson’s detailed investigation – are part of the same Gladio B program launched by the 9/11 neocon coup d’état.

Mmkay.

[Dalton_Holt]

>I don't trust anything the Western media says
>why doesn't the Western media report on Africa more?

please, continue...

Not necessarily the Western media, just any media funded by the government. If you trust the mainstream media you're just an idiot. Really I wouldn't trust any media, not even alternate news networks. The fact the media goes crazy over a Western country being attacked and completely ignores the bigger attacks in other parts of the world is just one example of media corruption. So my statements are not contradictory as you suggest, but rather evidence for the other.

[Dalton_Holt]

I stopped after reading this in the first article.



Mmkay.

Lol. Still, that article points out some good facts.

[james wolf]

There was an attack at a London tube station. Fortunately, as the UK has tight gun control, the attacker had access to only a knife, and no-one was hurt.

I can understand the arguments of forcing complete gun control in the USA. What I can't understand is people who believe guns should be available for everyone. I see no practical or logical reason for making sure guns do not fall into the hands of mentally ill people. Extending background checks would prevent some seriously dangerous people from getting a dangerous weapon.

Guns don't kill people, bullets tearing apart people's flesh kills people.