Another shooting tragedy

[Uniquemind]

Well it's been in the news but I haven't seen another thread created addressing it.


San Bernandino, CA.

A married couple, an immigrant spouse to a native born American male, got radicalized obviously and then shot up a disability regional center, who help people with mental and physical disabilities.


Town went into complete lock down for like the day, vigils are being held today, and names of the dead victims have been publicly released now.


Note: This is not the thread for debates about how society should react to this, although I do welcome the creation of any such thread in "Ramblings of the Wise", and we can debate the issue(s) and all their tangents there.

[Elysium]

There have been more mass shootings in the U.S. in 2015 than there have been days in the year (thus far). Every single day there are threats, schools are closed, vigils are being held, people being arrested, others being injured and killed and dying. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.

[thatcountrykid]

There have been more mass shootings in the U.S. in 2015 than there have been days in the year (thus far). Every single day there are threats, schools are closed, vigils are being held, people being arrested, others being injured and killed and dying. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.

Protect you and yours. Prepare yourself for what to do. But do not be afraid

[Uniquemind]

There have been more mass shootings in the U.S. in 2015 than there have been days in the year (thus far). Every single day there are threats, schools are closed, vigils are being held, people being arrested, others being injured and killed and dying. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.

I'm at the point where I'll try anything scientifically. If it doesn't work, reverse policy and try the other policy proposed before you enacted policy A.

[Gumleaf]

I know it's like the second amendment or something in the US constitution, the right to have a gun or something. But mass shootings are at the point now in the US that they are routine and that can't be good for anyone. I think America should follow the UK and Australia and have tough gun laws and take the fight to the gun lobby who would fight this. That's all i'll say because this isn't a debate thread, but surely something has to change to reduce the number of these tragic events.

[Stronk Serb]

This has nothing to do with gun control. It has to do with the declining social standard. Here, ten years ago there was almost no murder, but it has risen dramatically as the standard of living dropped. Since they are piss poor anyway, people have nothing to lose.

[Gwen]

This has nothing to do with gun control. It has to do with the declining social standard. Here, ten years ago there was almost no murder, but it has risen dramatically as the standard of living dropped. Since they are piss poor anyway, people have nothing to lose.

I wouldn't say it has nothing at all to do with gun control, since statistically it would lower the shootings by proxy. Otherwise you're completely correct though. Things like mental health care should be focused on more heavily in the US if problems like this are ever going to go away.

[Professional Russian]

I wouldn't say it has nothing at all to do with gun control, since statistically it would lower the shootings by proxy. Otherwise you're completely correct though. Things like mental health care should be focused on more heavily in the US if problems like this are ever going to go away.

No it has nothing to do with gun control. California has the strictest gun control laws in the country and look what the fuck happened. Gun control ain't the answer people control is. And the fact that the weapons the shooters used were illegal in the state of California blows the whole idea of gun control to hell because it proves my point of if someone wants to commit a crime they will get the weapons to do legal or not.

[Gwen]

No it has nothing to do with gun control. California has the strictest gun control laws in the country and look what the fuck happened. Gun control ain't the answer people control is. And the fact that the weapons the shooters used were illegal in the state of California blows the whole idea of gun control to hell because it proves my point of if someone wants to commit a crime they will get the weapons to do legal or not.

Strict compared to USA? That isn't a great comparison. Look how far gun related incidents and massacres dropped heavily after Port Arthur and the total lockdown on gun control. Even getting most types of knives is goddamn impossible especially if you live in Queensland (If they can open your knife with one hand, no matter how long it takes they will confiscate it, some cases they even use a screwdriver to loosen some types of knives). When Australia had a massive massacre the entire country shut down and forced through harsh laws that have since proved to be effective in these types of crimes. After 19 years of this we have dropped to 0.14 gun related homicides by firearms per 100,000 compared to 2.97 gun related homicides by firearms per 100,000. You can't half-ass gun 'control' and say that it doesn't work. People will find guns if they have the resources but just by looking at other countries who have invoked harsh restrictions most people obviously don't have the resources or willpower.

[Porpoise101]

And the fact that the weapons the shooters used were illegal in the state of California blows the whole idea of gun control to hell
Well maybe it's because CA can't regulate and inspect interstate traffic as that is a federal power. As such you can't regulate smugglers.

[phuckphace]

...*some stuff that happened on the other end of the Earth*...

brilliant comparison bro, it's almost like American and Australian demographics aren't even dissimilar in the least

as in every gun thread, I must reiterate: demographics + socioeconomic stability determine how much gun crime a given area will have. who's the guy holding the gun?

I wouldn't brag too hard about the brilliance of your knife ban given how sublimely retarded it is through and through. it's ridiculously easy to make and conceal a knife until it's time to get your stab on. ffs have you people never seen glass break? find you a super pointy piece, file it sharp af and wrap some electrical tape around one end for your hand. now you can still go out and stab whoever you were planning to stab while the cops harass normal people who don't stab each other.

nanny states lmao

[Professional Russian]

Strict compared to USA? That isn't a great comparison. Look how far gun related incidents and massacres dropped heavily after Port Arthur and the total lockdown on gun control. Even getting most types of knives is goddamn impossible especially if you live in Queensland (If they can open your knife with one hand, no matter how long it takes they will confiscate it, some cases they even use a screwdriver to loosen some types of knives). When Australia had a massive massacre the entire country shut down and forced through harsh laws that have since proved to be effective in these types of crimes. After 19 years of this we have dropped to 0.14 gun related homicides by firearms per 100,000 compared to 2.97 gun related homicides by firearms per 100,000. You can't half-ass gun 'control' and say that it doesn't work. People will find guns if they have the resources but just by looking at other countries who have invoked harsh restrictions most people obviously don't have the resources or willpower.

What the fuck is it with people trying to compare the US and Australia? I don't see how you can even remotley compare them since they're 2 different countries

[Gwen]

brilliant comparison bro, it's almost like American and Australian demographics aren't even dissimilar in the least

as in every gun thread, I must reiterate: demographics + socioeconomic stability determine how much gun crime a given area will have. who's the guy holding the gun?

I wouldn't brag too hard about the brilliance of your knife ban given how sublimely retarded it is through and through. it's ridiculously easy to make and conceal a knife until it's time to get your stab on. ffs have you people never seen glass break? find you a super pointy piece, file it sharp af and wrap some electrical tape around one end for your hand. now you can still go out and stab whoever you were planning to stab while the cops harass normal people who don't stab each other.

nanny states lmao

So then you agreed with my original point? I didn't say gun control just fixes everything just because it is there. WoooOOOaaaAAaaaHhhhh, CrAZy IDea rIght? Are you telling me that there is more than one factor behind statistics and incidents? Stupid and unnecessary sarcasm aside. Are you affected by selective reading? I was stating that mental health care and the problems affecting people in USA were one of the main reasons that these shootings also keep occurring. I also said that by proxy gun control would HELP, not that it would completely eliminate the problem or just eliminate a lot of the crime right away, only someone extremely idealistic or shitposty would say or suggest that. My statistics were in response to ProfessionalRussian saying that gun control wasn't the solution, I disagree thinking that it is quite a large part of the solution while also making sure you have a healthy, responsible and knowledgeable populace.

People are more confident and are more likely to get into a violent situation with a knife rather than a point rock or glass shard. Why are the few massacres going on countries like Sweden, Australia and Japan not committed with glass shards and electrical tape? Because a stiletto and trash found at bar fight scene aren't dissimilar in the least. But at this point I'm just finding more of your writing to pick at. I'm sorry for being born and living only in nanny states my entire life and pointing out its positive effects on the subject while blatantly ignoring its flaws in others, my only regret is that the one I'm currently living in is overly conservative.

I also agree that there are even more factors like this including your cartel friends down south where people don't know if the criminals or government is more dangerous at this point. But if the USA isn't pushing for any big changes in any direction then this shit will continue so instead of posting online to someone who already lives in gunfree, nearly massacre free society. I'm wasting time writing all this because I'm a foreigner with no real push in American politics and probably have poor knowledge since the only knowledge I can get it Legal studies and media, maybe give your well thought out points and personal perspectives to your local politician and help start making a change by joining a protest or something. If you any other sassy responses that you feel would be underappreciated by a professional than I am always free. Thanks for calling me bro though :lol:

[lacey02]

We have to be ready to defend America even at home. I am glad people have guns for protection in my neighborhood

[Gwen]

We have to be ready to defend America even at home. I am glad people have guns for protection in my neighborhood
What is a self-defense force? What is a military? What are police? Your neighborhood could join any of these and would actually be able to use their guns to 'defend' America (Assuming that the global bully of the world wielding nuclear weapons and enough military power to dwarf other 'world powers' 10 times over, needs defending).

What the fuck is it with people trying to compare the US and Australia? I don't see how you can even remotley compare them since they're 2 different countries

Because they both had massive fucking gun control problems and one stopped bitching and turned the whole country inside out ripping guns away from people making them impossible to obtain easily. Oh look, after nearly 20 years of letting the laws take effect and constantly improving and funding the mental health care and educational centers we now have nearly 0 fucking massacres and nobody has been worrying about another high school or port ending up the news, except for the ones in the USA. I don't want to hear about the country who banned fucking chocolate eggs because parents complained but won't slam the fist down on guns when shit like this doesn't stop happening. If you want to completely ignore the success of these laws and programs that they've had in other countries, then by all means be completely ignorant to it. Are you going to say to someone completely straight-faced with all honesty that gun control will not help the problem at all? WHO ELSE CAN WE COMPARE AMERICA WITH? NO OTHER COUNTRY BESIDES THEIR FRIENDS DOWN SOUTH HAS SUCH RAMPANT FUCKING PROBLEMS THAT AREN'T GETTING SOLVED.

[Professional Russian]

What is a self-defense force? What is a military? What are police? Your neighborhood could join any of these and would actually be able to use their guns to 'defend' America (Assuming that the global bully of the world wielding nuclear weapons and enough military power to dwarf other 'world powers' 10 times over, needs defending).



Because they both had massive fucking gun control problems and one stopped bitching and turned the whole country inside out ripping guns away from people making them impossible to obtain easily. Oh look, after nearly 20 years of letting the laws take effect and constantly improving and funding the mental health care and educational centers we now have nearly 0 fucking massacres and nobody has been worrying about another high school or port ending up the news, except for the ones in the USA. I don't want to hear about the country who banned fucking chocolate eggs because parents complained but won't slam the fist down on guns when shit like this doesn't stop happening. If you want to completely ignore the success of these laws and programs that they've had in other countries, then by all means be completely ignorant to it. Are you going to say to someone completely straight-faced with all honesty that gun control will not help the problem at all? WHO ELSE CAN WE COMPARE AMERICA WITH? NO OTHER COUNTRY BESIDES THEIR FRIENDS DOWN SOUTH HAS SUCH RAMPANT FUCKING PROBLEMS THAT AREN'T GETTING SOLVED.

Banning guns in this country ain't gonna fix this problem....you happen to have looked over the fact the THE GUNS THE SHOOTERS USED WERE ILLEGAL IN THE STATE CALIFORNIA. If someone wants to commit a crime we have this thing called the black market where they can get whatever they want, legal or illegal. Until you figure out how to stop the illegal trading of weapons your argument is in valid.

[Jinglebottom]

How often do crimes like this happen in the U.S..?

[Judean Zealot]

How often do crimes like this happen in the U.S..?

Very often. Too often.

[Gwen]

Banning guns in this country ain't gonna fix this problem....you happen to have looked over the fact the THE GUNS THE SHOOTERS USED WERE ILLEGAL IN THE STATE CALIFORNIA. If someone wants to commit a crime we have this thing called the black market where they can get whatever they want, legal or illegal. Until you figure out how to stop the illegal trading of weapons your argument is in valid.

Okay sure, so it just doesn't work in every case ever since they got illegal guns this one time? We just going to ignore the pile up of deaths from people finding their dad's .44 or people who just walk in to a store purchase a legal gun and go gung ho? It doesn't matter particularly seem to matter if some state does something in a decentralized government rather than it being enforced country wide. If the guns were illegal country wide then it would be a lot more to purchase them at a good price and easily in the black market that everyone knows about and apparently has easy access to. Shit we have some people who can rarely make it through with a shotgun and he held a cafe hostage. But that was a first in a long time for something like this to happen, because I'm sure plenty of insane shitlords want to do something like this but police crackdowns and strict imports and raids has limited Australian underground market to mainly drugs. Go to Sweden, Norway, UK, Australia, Japan or Denmark and show me these easily accessible illegal weapons trade markets that are safe. They just aren't there since trying to smuggle guns into a country with no guns is dangerous and risky.

Instead of telling me why nothing will work ever, could you possibly try and use your intelligence (Because after discussing this for awhile it is apparent that you have quite a bit) to give solutions rather than shooting holes in a rather reasonable suggestion (When looking at most 1st world countries nowadays). Increase focus on mental health, be firmer country-wide on gun control. With the majority finally swapping over to firmer gun control I can't wait to see there defeated faces when it has no affect whatsoever because baseless reason and how the all powerful black market crashes upon them. When you aren't selling guns in country, people have to import guns. You already have a reputation for keeping control of your borders a little too enthusiastically. Until you can understand that an argument can't just be invalidated due to one point while not giving the other party room for counter-argument is rather obnoxious and rude to the other sides argument as a whole? Until you can then understand that is, that making guns inhouse is why so many can easily seep into illegal hands so easily. A truck moving from factory to market is easier than a boat to a truck or a truck through the border police itching for something to happen. I also wonder who those socially awkward Columbine kids were going to by chance wonder into black market and acquire the money to pay for guns, that would be a story I would be interested in hearing. You vastly overestimate how many resources and willpower one or two people have. Look at people jumping off bridges, giving the time to think or having someone talking them down they regret there decision quickly and climb down. These people had the willpower to climb up there with intent to end it all but willpower isn't all black and white. Lower-economic class citizens with low wages are not going to be able to afford an imported illegal weapon.

[Jinglebottom]

Very often. Too often.
I figured. :| Sad.

[Professional Russian]

Okay sure, so it just doesn't work in every case ever since they got illegal guns this one time? We just going to ignore the pile up of deaths from people finding their dad's .44 or people who just walk in to a store purchase a legal gun and go gung ho? It doesn't matter particularly seem to matter if some state does something in a decentralized government rather than it being enforced country wide. If the guns were illegal country wide then it would be a lot more to purchase them at a good price and easily in the black market that everyone knows about and apparently has easy access to. Shit we have some people who can rarely make it through with a shotgun and he held a cafe hostage. But that was a first in a long time for something like this to happen, because I'm sure plenty of insane shitlords want to do something like this but police crackdowns and strict imports and raids has limited Australian underground market to mainly drugs. Go to Sweden, Norway, UK, Australia, Japan or Denmark and show me these easily accessible illegal weapons trade markets that are safe. They just aren't there since trying to smuggle guns into a country with no guns is dangerous and risky.

Instead of telling me why nothing will work ever, could you possibly try and use your intelligence (Because after discussing this for awhile it is apparent that you have quite a bit) to give solutions rather than shooting holes in a rather reasonable suggestion (When looking at most 1st world countries nowadays). Increase focus on mental health, be firmer country-wide on gun control. With the majority finally swapping over to firmer gun control I can't wait to see there defeated faces when it has no affect whatsoever because baseless reason and how the all powerful black market crashes upon them. When you aren't selling guns in country, people have to import guns. You already have a reputation for keeping control of your borders a little too enthusiastically. Until you can understand that an argument can't just be invalidated due to one point while not giving the other party room for counter-argument is rather obnoxious and rude to the other sides argument as a whole? Until you can then understand that is, that making guns inhouse is why so many can easily seep into illegal hands so easily. A truck moving from factory to market is easier than a boat to a truck or a truck through the border police itching for something to happen. I also wonder who those socially awkward Columbine kids were going to by chance wonder into black market and acquire the money to pay for guns, that would be a story I would be interested in hearing. You vastly overestimate how many resources and willpower one or two people have. Look at people jumping off bridges, giving the time to think or having someone talking them down they regret there decision quickly and climb down. These people had the willpower to climb up there with intent to end it all but willpower isn't all black and white. Lower-economic class citizens with low wages are not going to be able to afford an imported illegal weapon.

You don't have to import guns into a country that already mass produced them. I'm telling you for a fact banning guns is not the answer. Youd have a civil war on your hands anyways if you tried that here. And keeping control of our borders? Really? The Mexicans are jumping and Obama's taking our tax dollars to fucking pay for them. Letting Syrian refugees in and taking our tax dollars to pay for it. Our borders are open and thats one of the problems we have. When you have multiple races and religions you will that have a problem. It's a proven fact. I'm sorry burst your little bubble but racism still exists here there's still alot of crime over it. The radical Muslims are launching attacks on the US because of religion...and by the way I did indeed here the shooters were Muslims and that just about screams isis to me. You've got the mentally unstable running around because our mental health system fucking sucks. You've got cops in power trips running around as well and that defiently ain't helping our problem. You've got a president that sympathizes with a fucking terrorist organization, the Muslim brotherhood. You've got the gang wars going on, drug trafficking, and the cartels running around plus there's still organized crime as well and what do these have in common? You've got it it all leads to violence, guns, knives, shards of glass, garrot wire, bombs, dirty bombs, brass knuckles, bare fists, and the list fucking goes one. The point is the US is fucked whether we ban guns or not so it doesn't matter what we do if any of those listed wants to commit a crime they will find a way to do. I'd be willing to put money on if you banned guns the amount of bombings and stabbing would skyrocket. You can't stop whats happening. You just can't. Everyone wants to blame the gun but its not the gun. It's the person behind with the fucked up mind doing this. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. I've got a .40 and a .44 under my bed and neither have them killed anybody, the 44s taken its share of deer but not people. I have the better part of 24 more in the safe and the haven't killed people, lots of animals but not people. Unless my guns are really well behaved then my point is made. Guns are an inanimate object. Controling them won't help you. Controling the mentally ill, terrorists, and cartels on the other hand will.

[Porpoise101]

I feel like in open countries like US is with guns you get lots of citizen violence but in more restrictive countries like how US is with drugs you get more organized crime. It's just an observation.

[Gwen]

You don't have to import guns into a country that already mass produced them. I'm telling you for a fact banning guns is not the answer. Youd have a civil war on your hands anyways if you tried that here. And keeping control of our borders? Really? The Mexicans are jumping and Obama's taking our tax dollars to fucking pay for them. Letting Syrian refugees in and taking our tax dollars to pay for it. Our borders are open and thats one of the problems we have. When you have multiple races and religions you will that have a problem. It's a proven fact. I'm sorry burst your little bubble but racism still exists here there's still alot of crime over it. The radical Muslims are launching attacks on the US because of religion...and by the way I did indeed here the shooters were Muslims and that just about screams isis to me. You've got the mentally unstable running around because our mental health system fucking sucks. You've got cops in power trips running around as well and that defiently ain't helping our problem. You've got a president that sympathizes with a fucking terrorist organization, the Muslim brotherhood. You've got the gang wars going on, drug trafficking, and the cartels running around plus there's still organized crime as well and what do these have in common? You've got it it all leads to violence, guns, knives, shards of glass, garrot wire, bombs, dirty bombs, brass knuckles, bare fists, and the list fucking goes one. The point is the US is fucked whether we ban guns or not so it doesn't matter what we do if any of those listed wants to commit a crime they will find a way to do. I'd be willing to put money on if you banned guns the amount of bombings and stabbing would skyrocket. You can't stop whats happening. You just can't. Everyone wants to blame the gun but its not the gun. It's the person behind with the fucked up mind doing this. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. I've got a .40 and a .44 under my bed and neither have them killed anybody, the 44s taken its share of deer but not people. I have the better part of 24 more in the safe and the haven't killed people, lots of animals but not people. Unless my guns are really well behaved then my point is made. Guns are an inanimate object. Controling them won't help you. Controling the mentally ill, terrorists, and cartels on the other hand will.

Okay this is going to be extremely rude of me so I'll have to apologise. I am not interested in pursuing this argument any further, I have made my points as had you and it quite clear that neither of us plans on budging or learning from one another so I'll just call it quits for now. I understand your point of view and respect it, I just happen to extremely disagree with it as well (Although we roughly have the same idea on "people control"). Your country has many issues and I as an outsider and a part of a completely different political spectrum can't really comprehend all the problems and issues affecting it as you might. I say neither of us learnt anything but I think I have even if it was just a small bit. I won't fully change on my opinion but I agree that it would better to have comprimises rather than having you go full blown 'nanny or father knows best' state.

[Uniquemind]

Okay so this discussion is great but I am going to make an ROTW thread now where we can continue.

This is merely for updating factual discussion about this particular tragedy.


I request that mods do not delete posts here, but transfer them to A new ROTW thread which I am about to make.

[Bontigo Papi .]

Never heard about it , thanks for sharing , the shit people do is shocking actually.

[sqishy]

It's happened many a time before, and will happen many a time again, if things do not change a lot.
I have said this before on a similar thread...