Terrorist Attacks In Paris

[Falcons_11]

By now, just about everyone has heard about the terrorist attacks in Paris. ISIS has already claimed responsibility. What do you think should be the West (Europe and North America) response to this outrageous act?

[Emerald Dream]

VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: Ramblings of the Wise

I know we have already have a news article in the Chronicle section, but this thread seems to want more of debate.

[Uniquemind]

VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: Ramblings of the Wise

I know we have already have a news article in the Chronicle section, but this thread seems to want more of debate.

My question is how will this change French culture?

Will they become more like America with the right to bear arms?

Does that even work well in situations like these where the element of surprise was on the crazies side?

Will this further intensify Islamiphobia? Is that justified? If not how should the Islamic community who disagree with what happen react, and will those reactions be enough to prove and explain away the very lines of scripture used to justify the extremists using their faith's label?

To break the spirit of terrorism will nukes have to be used?

[Falcons_11]

Thanks Emerald Dream. You are correct.

[Sir Suomi]

It's a tough call, I'll be honest. Should we send our own troops once again into Iraq for another decade long conflict that won't do much, or do we say fuck it and let the region fall into chaos?

I'm in the military, and this really worries me. On one hand, I want to kill every single one of the camel fuckers with my bare hands. However, I also don't want more America to lose any more sons and daughters to fight an enemy that we simply can't beat. They might wipe their own assess with their hands, but they're smart enough to realize that they simply need to wait until the American public gets tired of war, which we are.

American's are still very war weary, and a lot of families are still trying to recover from the losses we've sustained so far. The only way I could see another full commitment of troops would be something like what happened in France happen in the U.S, which is a extremely possible.

[Uniquemind]

In the case of terrorism I actually promote the concept of imperialization.


I'm a strong believer that when a country falls, it's cultures and beliefs die with it just out of respect that those cultures came from culture that couldn't endure.

It means a complete shedding of identity which is hard for people without throwing a fit.

[lacey02]

really sad about Paris. I think we have to stop them anyway we can. I don't think they will stop attacking people who don't believe the same as them.

[StoppingTom]

This was the most fatal terror attack in a Western country since 9/11, and we all know how we reacted after that. Hopefully France takes that into consideration before taking any actions.

[Jinglebottom]

I hope they're destroyed somehow. And soon. Tired of feeling unsafe every time I get out of the house. My whole weekend has been cancelled because of the shit they pulled yesterday.

[Salad_Baby]

Really is tragic. You don't really imagine the chaos of the Middle East spreading into a city such as Paris in such a large scale..

I hope that military action isn't taken, as we all know how successful that was for the USA after the wake of 9/11. It might seem like the logical and justified approach to take in the aftermath, but in the long term it will only conclude in pointless amounts of death, further hatred towards the West, and an even messier Middle East.

It does make me think though - will events like this become more common place? Not only because of the growth of ISIS over the year, but also due to the Europe Migrant crisis: many people who entered Europe were, of course, refugees and economic migrants, but it is firmly believed that many ISIS combatants have used the influx of migration to infiltrate their men into Europe. I believe one of the killers who took part in the Paris attacks was reported to have actually been sighted as part of the migration, somewhere in Greece I believe.

[sqishy]

We should not jump to the conclusion that ISIL is behind this, just because they say they claimed responsibility. It is extremely likely they did, but we should not base our conclusions on declarations of responsibility. I have read the responsiblity speech; it's mostly made up of malevolent wording and not much content, they really have made a good example of what a 'textbook' villain would say.

Translated by news.siteintelgroup.com , here is the speech:

____________________
Urgent: Statement about the Blessed Paris Invasion on the French Crusaders

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

The Almighty said: “And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But Allah's (Torment) reached them from a place whereof they expected it not, and He cast terror into their hearts so that they destroyed their own dwellings with their own hands and the hands of the believers. Then take admonition, O you with eyes (to see).” [Al-Hashr: 2]

In a blessed attack for which Allah facilitated the causes for success, a faithful group of the soldiers of the Caliphate, may Allah dignify it and make it victorious, launched out, targeting the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe, Paris… Youths who divorced the world and went to their enemy seeking to be killed in the cause of Allah, in support of His religion and His Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and his charges, and to put the nose of His enemies in the ground. So they were honest with Allah, we consider them thusly, and Allah conquered through their hands and cast in the hearts of the Crusaders horror in the middle of their land, where eight brothers wrapped in explosive belts and armed with machine rifles, targeted sites that were accurately chosen in the heart of the capital of France, including the Stade de France during the match between the Crusader German and French teams, where the fool of France, Francois Hollande, was present.

[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party, and other areas in the 10th and 11th and 18th [arrondissements] and in a coordinated fashion. So Paris shook under their feet, and its streets were tight upon them, and the result of the attacks was the death of no less than 100 Crusaders and the wounding of more than those, and unto Allah is all praise and gratitude.

Allah had granted our brothers their wish and gave them what they loved, for they detonated their belts in the gatherings of the disbelievers after running out of ammunition, we ask Allah to accept them among the martyrs and make us follow them.

Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State, and that the smell of death will never leave their noses as long as they lead the convoy of the Crusader campaign, and dare to curse our Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and are proud of fighting Islam in France and striking the Muslims in the land of the Caliphate with their planes, which did not help them at all in the streets of Paris and its rotten alleys. This attack is the first of the storm and a warning to those who wish to learn.

Allah is Great

“But honor, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not.” [From Al-Munafiqun: 8]
____________________




(If it is of any trivial note, I have spotted grammatical mistakes and a vague reference near the end. In other words, it's not a great speech.)

The middle east is in a huge mess, and people being killed (innocent civilians is the catch word here too) there because of drone/bomb etc strikes by Western/Russian forces is absolutely no excuse whatsoever. This could be interpreted by some as terrorism in itself, and use it as motive. Fighting these attacks with more invasive measures is not going to work, in my view. I'm absolutely not surprised that many people hate the west for this. This a 'multi-directional' thing. To think one is bad and the other is good, is wrong, very wrong. I have more views, but not relevant immediately.

The refugee situation is a very good way for opportunists with bad intentions to travel into Europe, I see it to be very relevant. Overall, lots of things are integrated, it is not simple.

[I also want to note that there were attacks in Beirut and Baghdad- it is not all about Paris. Both are seriously important, not one of them only. I don't like how it's all about Paris, and very little is looked with respect to Beirut or Baghdad. It should not be thousands of times more important simply because it is in the western world - the argument of proximity does not work here, because world news (non-local in theory) is almost entirely on the Paris event compared to the other two.]

I know I sound extremely technical, I'm just trying to get my view through cleanly. It is horrible and has upset me.

[Stronk Serb]

Go full Russian on them and support Assad. He IS NOT perfect, but he and his former colleauges, Gaddafi and Hussein knew how to keep order. People would've died anyway, but with them, a lot less died. Also turn back refugees, most of them are military capable men. Are we going to harbor deserters who might abandon us in our time of need or even worse, sleeper cells? You can't let the Kurdish women do all the work, men are needed for large operations. Seeing replies like this made me cringe. Damn the liberal cucks in power.


P.S. Get 'em Exocet

[Jinglebottom]

[I also want to note that there were attacks in Beirut and Baghdad- it is not all about Paris. Both are seriously important, not one of them only. I don't like how it's all about Paris, and very little is looked with respect to Beirut or Baghdad. It should not be thousands of times more important simply because it is in the western world - the argument of proximity does not work here, because world news (non-local in theory) is almost entirely on the Paris event compared to the other two.]
Let me tell you the cold, harsh truth: the Lebanese (as well as the ones in Iraq) live in a country that has reached a point where bombings, killing and shootings have become normal and happen on a daily basis. People used to feel genuinely scared whenever an explosion happened, now they just shrug it off as something typical, and I know how psychopathic that sounds. You just sort of get used to it after a while (2 bombings/month in a span of 5 months). No wonder why we hold *zero* value to the world, but I don't care. Trust me, we're not offended.

The amount of attention and stupid hashtags don't matter. It's not a freaking competition of who gets noticed the most. Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of where it happens, and we're all suffering together. As if the world doesn't know what a shitty, messed up place the Middle East is. They're probably tired of hearing it.

[DimkaD]

“You want to ask the people who created this situation:‘Do you at least understand what you’ve done?"

[sqishy]

Let me tell you the cold, harsh truth: the Lebanese (as well as the ones in Iraq) live in a country that has reached a point where bombings, killing and shootings are normal and happen on a daily basis. People used to feel genuinely scared whenever an explosion happened, now they just shrug it off as something typical, and I know how psychopathic that sounds. You just sort of get used to it after a while (2 bombings/month in a span of 5 months). No wonder why we hold *zero* value to the world, but I don't care. Trust me, we're not offended.

The amount of attention and stupid hashtags don't matter. It's not a freaking competition of who gets noticed the most. Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of where it happens, and we're all suffering together. As if the world doesn't know what a shitty, messed up place the Middle East is. They're probably tired of hearing it.

I have nothing against the view that getting used to routine of sorts causes less shock. However, there was no formal speech by the US on what has happened in Beirut or Baghdad; there was no formal recognition. I fully get what you are saying, but this situation seems beyond 'custom of habit' to me - if the problem is to seriously and honestly be dealt with, then report every damn relevant event that occurs! Otherwise, ignorance of what goes on will leave most people in the dark, and if not that, devoid of sympathy. More active perception is needed to counteract custom of habit, because if we keep accepting what keeps happening and assume their is no other way, then nothing will happen. If the world really cares, then be aware of what you care about in its entirety. It is a form of hypocrisy, subconsciously at the least. Not caring about the whole picture is not enough. I see cold harshness in this too.

[Stronk Serb]

We should not jump to the conclusion that ISIL is behind this, just because they say they claimed responsibility. It is extremely likely they did, but we should not base our conclusions on declarations of responsibility. I have read the responsiblity speech; it's mostly made up of malevolent wording and not much content, they really have made a good example of what a 'textbook' villain would say.

Translated by news.siteintelgroup.com , here is the speech:

____________________
Urgent: Statement about the Blessed Paris Invasion on the French Crusaders

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

The Almighty said: “And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But Allah's (Torment) reached them from a place whereof they expected it not, and He cast terror into their hearts so that they destroyed their own dwellings with their own hands and the hands of the believers. Then take admonition, O you with eyes (to see).” [Al-Hashr: 2]

In a blessed attack for which Allah facilitated the causes for success, a faithful group of the soldiers of the Caliphate, may Allah dignify it and make it victorious, launched out, targeting the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe, Paris… Youths who divorced the world and went to their enemy seeking to be killed in the cause of Allah, in support of His religion and His Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and his charges, and to put the nose of His enemies in the ground. So they were honest with Allah, we consider them thusly, and Allah conquered through their hands and cast in the hearts of the Crusaders horror in the middle of their land, where eight brothers wrapped in explosive belts and armed with machine rifles, targeted sites that were accurately chosen in the heart of the capital of France, including the Stade de France during the match between the Crusader German and French teams, where the fool of France, Francois Hollande, was present.

[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party, and other areas in the 10th and 11th and 18th [arrondissements] and in a coordinated fashion. So Paris shook under their feet, and its streets were tight upon them, and the result of the attacks was the death of no less than 100 Crusaders and the wounding of more than those, and unto Allah is all praise and gratitude.

Allah had granted our brothers their wish and gave them what they loved, for they detonated their belts in the gatherings of the disbelievers after running out of ammunition, we ask Allah to accept them among the martyrs and make us follow them.

Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State, and that the smell of death will never leave their noses as long as they lead the convoy of the Crusader campaign, and dare to curse our Prophet, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, and are proud of fighting Islam in France and striking the Muslims in the land of the Caliphate with their planes, which did not help them at all in the streets of Paris and its rotten alleys. This attack is the first of the storm and a warning to those who wish to learn.

Allah is Great

“But honor, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not.” [From Al-Munafiqun: 8]
____________________



The middle east is in a huge mess, and people being killed (innocent civilians is the catch word here too) there because of drone/bomb etc strikes by Western/Russian forces is absolutely no excuse whatsoever. This could be interpreted by some as terrorism in itself, and use it as motive. Fighting these attacks with more invasive measures is not going to work, in my view. I'm absolutely not surprised that many people hate the west for this. This a 'multi-directional' thing. To think one is bad and the other is good, is wrong, very wrong. I have more views, but not relevant immediately.

The refugee situation is a very good way for opportunists with bad intentions to travel into Europe, I see it to be very relevant. Overall, lots of things are integrated, it is not simple.

[I also want to note that there were attacks in Beirut and Baghdad- it is not all about Paris. Both are seriously important, not one of them only. I don't like how it's all about Paris, and very little is looked with respect to Beirut or Baghdad. It should not be thousands of times more important simply because it is in the western world - the argument of proximity does not work here, because world news (non-local in theory) is almost entirely on the Paris event compared to the other two.]

I know I sound extremely technical, I'm just trying to get my view through cleanly. It is horrible and has upset me.

Well, those cucks from the US government made this fine shitstew and now Europe and the Middle East has to dine on it. Also if those terrorists weren't victims of failed circumsissionwhich took off their balls, I guess they would attack the foreign interventionist cucks responsible, no matter the cost. After the Russians pretty much did the work in one month, the work the US- led coalition didn't do in years, The Syrian loyalists now stand a chance to make ISIS pay dearly, with American tax dollars going given to ISIS down the shitter. Also I have the stance that Saudi Arabia is to be sucked dry of oil and that Mecca should become an independent theocracy with a strictly enforced moderate scripture, sort of like the Vatican

[conniption]

Let me tell you the cold, harsh truth: the Lebanese (as well as the ones in Iraq) live in a country that has reached a point where bombings, killing and shootings have become normal and happen on a daily basis. People used to feel genuinely scared whenever an explosion happened, now they just shrug it off as something typical, and I know how psychopathic that sounds. You just sort of get used to it after a while (2 bombings/month in a span of 5 months). No wonder why we hold *zero* value to the world, but I don't care. Trust me, we're not offended.

The amount of attention and stupid hashtags don't matter. It's not a freaking competition of who gets noticed the most. Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of where it happens, and we're all suffering together. As if the world doesn't know what a shitty, messed up place the Middle East is. They're probably tired of hearing it.

Of course it's not a competition, but I do believe not enough attention is given to the other countries affected by extremism. There is a general feeling of disconnect between the Western world and any other countries east of Europe. The Paris attacks were an absolute wake up call for the Western world. Islamist extremism isn't just threatening Western civilization, it's a threat to civilization as a whole. Extremists don't care who you are or where you're from, if you're not standing along side them armed to the gills, you are a target. Why, instead of uniting in the face of a humanitarian crisis, is the world only becoming more divided as they scramble to pin the blame on someone? In a divided world it's the victims of extremism that lose (this includes victims of terrorism both in the Middle East and in the western world, as well as the refugees fleeing their homes) and it's the extremists that win.

[Jinglebottom]

I have nothing against the view that getting used to routine of sorts causes less shock. However, there was no formal speech by the US on what has happened in Beirut or Baghdad; there was no formal recognition. I fully get what you are saying, but this situation seems beyond 'custom of habit' to me - if the problem is to seriously and honestly be dealt with, then report every damn relevant event that occurs! Otherwise, ignorance of what goes on will leave most people in the dark, and if not that, devoid of sympathy. More active perception is needed to counteract custom of habit, because if we keep accepting what keeps happening and assume their is no other way, then nothing will happen. If the world really cares, then be aware of what you care about in its entirety. It is a form of hypocrisy, subconsciously at the least. Not caring about the whole picture is not enough. I see cold harshness in this too.
I agree with you to an extent. But sadly, that's just my pessimistic take on stuff like that. I just don't expect a nation as huge as the U.S. to care about some insignificant little country in Western Asia that's roughly the same size as Delaware (the second smallest U.S. state!). :)

There was one thing that pissed me off, though. It was how some users (on Twitter, as usual) thought "Beirut" and "Lebanon" were completely unrelated locations. I mean, would it kill those people to at least research what happened before jumping on the hashtag wagon? :lol: I had a good laugh. Admittedly, I'm still giggling over it.

The point is, more attention would be welcome, but in the end we're all fighting against the same thing: extremism. And that's all that should matter. :)

[sqishy]

I agree with you to an extent. But sadly, that's just my pessimistic take on stuff like that. I just don't expect a nation as huge as the U.S. to care about some insignificant little country in Western Asia that's roughly the same size as Delaware (the second smallest U.S. state!). :)

There was one thing that pissed me off, though. It was how some users (on Twitter, as usual) thought "Beirut" and "Lebanon" were completely unrelated locations. I mean, would it kill those people to at least research what happened before jumping on the hashtag wagon? :lol: I had a good laugh. Admittedly, I'm still giggling over it.

The point is, more attention would be welcome, but in the end we're all fighting against the same thing: extremism. And that's all that should matter. :)

Your pessimism may not be as pessimistic as you think, because I do share some view that the US officially does not really care about certain events, but offers condolences anyhow. I tend to use 'officially' when I suspend my already-formed ideas with regards to something and start from the beginning, so to speak. For example, I agree that the US officially is aiming for a minimum-death peace situation in the middle east. Appearances first!

Yeah, looking something up does no harm.

The extremism situation in itself is very important, yes.

[conniption]

The point is, more attention would be welcome, but in the end we're all fighting against the same thing: extremism. And that's all that should matter. :)

It's not just extremism were facing here, it's ignorance. Why has the world been so slow to tackle the plague that is ISIS? Because people are ignorant to just how fast and destructive extremism really is. Nobody cared to give a helping hand to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt as they opened up their borders to help their neighbors in need, despite knowing that handling an influx of 3-4 million refugees would be extremely difficult given the fact that they had their own problems to deal with. But because it was happening in the Middle East nobody even spared these countries and Syrian refugees a glance. Such ignorance only allowed for ISIS to fester and grow. Now that the consequences of extremism have spilled over into the Western world are people paying attention, but people continue to remain ignorant even as the flames of extremism enter their backyards. The world around them could be burning to the ground and they'd still refuse to look beyond their barb wire fences, insisting that it's not their problem to deal with.

[Jinglebottom]

It's not just extremism were facing here, it's ignorance. Why has the world been so slow to tackle the plague that is ISIS? Because people are ignorant to just how fast and destructive extremism really is. Nobody cared to give a helping hand to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt as they opened up their borders to help their neighbors in need, despite knowing that handling an influx of 3-4 million refugees would be extremely difficult given the fact that they had their own problems to deal with. But because it was happening in the Middle East nobody even spared these countries and Syrian refugees a glance. Such ignorance only allowed for ISIS to fester and grow. Now that the consequences of extremism have spilled over into the Western world are people paying attention, but people continue to remain ignorant even as the flames of extremism enter their backyards. The world around them could be burning to the ground and they'd still refuse to look beyond their barb wire fences, insisting that it's not their problem to deal with.
Honestly, I'm with you on the matter. One of my friends said it best:

"To all you wondering why the world's reaction to the Paris bombings was so different to their reaction to the Beirut bombings, I ask you how did you react?
I've been here for just over a day and whenever I've asked about the bombs, I've gotten these answers: "metel el 3ade"* and "mnih fallayte"**. Basically, people thought it was more of the same and applauded me on living abroad. More statuses were posted about the difference between the Paris and Beirut bombings than about the Beirut bombings the day before.

If Lebanese people see bombs as an unfortunate inconvenience every once in a while and encourage people to leave rather than stay and fight for their country, then why the hell would you expect solidarity from the rest of the world?

Our government declared a day of grievance. Have you seen how the French government reacted? So again, why the hell are you expecting any different from the world?

Maybe if we start reacting to bombings in ways other than avoiding certain areas, occasionally ranting online and laying low for a day or two, maybe if we start getting vocal online and mobile offline, maybe if we start working for a change rather than just calling for it, then maybe, just maybe, the world would start paying attention."

*(translation: as usual)

**(translation: it's a good thing you left)

It's all in our attitudes. They differ greatly between here and France. The Lebanese don't care so why should they expect the world to? We're too passive on the matter. We're all acting as if nothing has happened instead of defending ourselves. And that's not an attitude we're going to grow out of soon if we keep on behaving this way (sadly). Fuck's sake, people have started placing bets on when the next suicide-bombing is going to happen, as if it was all just a big fat joke.

[Exocet]

According to some,France could invoke NATO's article 5....... Like the US did after the 9/11 attacks.
I hope we do,and then ally with Russia and literally destroy ISIS..... didn't Russia and US,UK etc. ally to fight the 3rd reich ?

[dxcxdzv]

According to some,France could invoke NATO's article 5....... Like the US did after the 9/11 attacks.
I hope we do,and then ally with Russia and literally destroy ISIS..... didn't Russia and US,UK etc. ally to fight the 3rd reich ?
Well Russia and the Allies were allies by default. Same enemy, not the same thoughts.

[Living For Love]

It's a tough call, I'll be honest. Should we send our own troops once again into Iraq for another decade long conflict that won't do much, or do we say fuck it and let the region fall into chaos?
The region is already chaotic, the problem is that they want to bring that chaos to Europe as well.

I also don't want more America to lose any more sons and daughters to fight an enemy that we simply can't beat.
You can beat it.

The only way I could see another full commitment of troops would be something like what happened in France happen in the U.S, which is a extremely possible.
So more people need to die before the Western leaders finally decide to do something against terrorists?

Also turn back refugees, most of them are military capable men.
Too late now. They're already here, they keep coming and they're staying. For a long time.

[Sir Suomi]

The region is already chaotic, the problem is that they want to bring that chaos to Europe as well.

If you've paid attention to what happened over the past 14 years, it's safe to say our presence simply made the region even more unstable.


You can beat it.

Look, I'd love to say that we can, but these guys aren't a regular army. We can't just beat them back in a couple of battles, take their capital, kill their leader, and then they'll surrender. These guys will simply go into hiding, use hit and run tactics, and continue to fight until we give up and go home. It happened in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So more people need to die before the Western leaders finally decide to do something against terrorists?

Like I said, no matter what decision we make it's going to end in deaths. Americans are very war weary. Going through a 14 year war with no results kind of brings don the morale. The only feasible way I could see us wanting to go to war would be like I previously stated, and attack on the United States.

I just don't expect a nation as huge as the U.S. to care about some insignificant little country in Western Asia that's roughly the same size as Delaware (the second smallest U.S. state!). :)


It's not like the majority of us do not care. It's just that these last 14 years have kind of been a slap in the face and have started to make us question whether or not we should remain the world's police. Dying for another country's sake only sounds appealing for so long.

[Stronk Serb]

The region is already chaotic, the problem is that they want to bring that chaos to Europe as well.


You can beat it.


So more people need to die before the Western leaders finally decide to do something against terrorists?


Too late now. They're already here, they keep coming and they're staying. For a long time.


Send them back then. We could do that if the EU leadership wasn't full of cucks.

[Uniquemind]

You could always give refugees 2nd class citizenship, strip them of all communication technology, yet not send them back. (Curfew, no internet, controlled electricity flow for showers and baths and cooking).

But France would *shudder* have to take a page out of Hitler's book minus the genocide and torture experimentation.

Be civil but control them all under national security pretenses.

Not unlike what America did to the Japanese in WWII. Unethical? Yes. Effective? Yes.

But unlike with this issue, visual appearance won't help here since the enemy is ideological and can look like anybody.

[Jinglebottom]

You could always give refugees 2nd class citizenship, strip them of all communication technology, yet not send them back. (Curfew, no internet, controlled electricity flow for showers and baths and cooking).
That's a bit similar to the way we treat (Syrian/Palestinian) refugees here.

[Judean Zealot]

Those bloody ISIS fellows know exactly what they want and how to get it, and they will. They wish to provoke the west to upgrade the fight against them, because they know that the west is too spineless to fully crush them, considering as that would necessarily require both more blood and time than this pot-addled, alcohol-sodden wreck of a society can handle. The fools will just up bombing against ISIS, perhaps send some more military advisors, but no more. Then ISIS can really up their game in terms of recruitment- which is precisely what they need right now.

This has been ISIS's strategy ever since they began- simultaneously goading the west into futile reaction while at the same time not backing the west against a corner as did Al-Qaeda by 9/11. Every time I think over their strategy I get more and more impressed by it's simplicity and elegance. Mark my words- they will maintain a "slow boil" on the west for as long as is necessary, the west will start some ineffectual, half-hearted campaign against them, the media will trumpet out western "victories", and ISIS will emerge from the whole debacle more powerful than before. The ideal thing for the west to do at this point is nothing, and let drops in recruitment and logistical overextension reduce ISIS to a small and isolated enemy. But of course, Europe and America will continue dancing to ISIS's tune, being the inept fools that they are.

[Sir Suomi]

They wish to provoke the west to upgrade the fight against them, because they know that the west is too spineless to fully crush them, considering as that would necessarily require both more blood and time than this pot-addled, alcohol-sodden wreck of a society can handle.


What would you suggest then? This isn't a conventional enemy we can fight. The most we could do would be what we did to Al-Qaeda, and to basically put them into hiding and continue to fight a long drawn out war.

Other options, impractical as they are, would be basically a complete takeover of the nation's government, economy, and people. We'd have troops over there constantly, and it would just be an endless conflict.

Trust me, I want to kill these goat-fuckers more than anyone else, but I can't ignore history.

[Judean Zealot]

What would you suggest then? This isn't a conventional enemy we can fight. The most we could do would be what we did to Al-Qaeda, and to basically put them into hiding and continue to fight a long drawn out war.

Other options, impractical as they are, would be basically a complete takeover of the nation's government, economy, and people. We'd have troops over there constantly, and it would just be an endless conflict.

Trust me, I want to kill these goat-fuckers more than anyone else, but I can't ignore history.

There are two options. One would be to literally do nothing, and allow ISIS to fold under it's own overextension. On the one hand, that will save western lives, yet on the other hand, the conflict will inevitably end with the eventual expansion of the Russo-Iranian sphere of influence.

The other option is more difficult in the short term, but in the long term will maintain American power in the region, and that is all out war. This can technically be won, albeit at a high cost of life and a lengthy occupation. The reason America lost the prior wars was due to diplomatic ineptitude brought about by politicians pandering for votes. If this could be avoided (it can't) America can crush the entire force and establish a Sunni government, while keeping an eye out for the corruption that took down the Shiite one. The areas east of Baghdad ought to fall under Iranian influence, but at the very least Anbar and Baghdad would remain within the American. However, since the west insists on democratic self-immolation, they will get it. The effeminate Americans cannot handle a few thousand casualties over a decade, so so be it.

[Porpoise101]

There are two options. One would be to literally do nothing, and allow ISIS to fold under it's own overextension. On the one hand, that will save western lives, yet on the other hand, the conflict will inevitably end with the eventual expansion of the Russo-Iranian sphere of influence.

Why is this such a bad thing? If we Americans had foresight than we would ditch the Saudis to balance the region and also turn to Russia. We need to be friends with Russia and gain their trust. They are in need of relief and antagonism on both sides will only cause issues. The real enemy is China because they are starting a hegemony in Asia. Europe and the Middle East have competing regional powers which prevent someone from getting too strong. Another thing that can be done is to make sure Brazil does not turn away from America, but that is not an immediate issue because they are crippled now. Sorry for rambling but to me, IS is a non issue that can be ignored or be exploited to develop ties with Russia and Iran.

[Exocet]

For God's sake,nuke Raqqah.

[Judean Zealot]

Why is this such a bad thing? If we Americans had foresight than we would ditch the Saudis to balance the region and also turn to Russia. We need to be friends with Russia and gain their trust. They are in need of relief and antagonism on both sides will only cause issues. The real enemy is China because they are starting a hegemony in Asia. Europe and the Middle East have competing regional powers which prevent someone from getting too strong. Another thing that can be done is to make sure Brazil does not turn away from America, but that is not an immediate issue because they are crippled now. Sorry for rambling but to me, IS is a non issue that can be ignored or be exploited to develop ties with Russia and Iran.

You're asking me? I don't care in the least bit about American/Russian power struggles (actually, I do, but only so far as Israel is affected). However, America has an empire, and it's maintenance is now important for America. And if America must maintain it's empire, Russia is a very serious threat. Iran can perhaps be manipulated, but not Russia.

[sqishy]

For God's sake,nuke Raqqah.

I hope the nuclear bomb thing is not serious.

[Andyyy95]

For God's sake,nuke Raqqah.

FYI, France have launched air-strikes on Raqqa tonight in revenge for the Paris atrocities. Bombs launched & damaged the command centre, recruitment centre, munitions depot and a training camp.

More info here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/syrian-activists-claim-stadium-museum-6838577#ICID=FB_mirror_main

[sqishy]

FYI, France have launched air-strikes on Raqqa tonight in revenge for the Paris atrocities. Bombs launched & damaged the command centre, recruitment centre, munitions depot and a training camp.

More info here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/syrian-activists-claim-stadium-museum-6838577#ICID=FB_mirror_main

Hope the intended targets, the ISIL people, have been hit, and only them.

[mattsmith48]

Another bad thing cause by a religion

[Exocet]

I hope the nuclear bomb thing is not serious.



Hope the intended targets, the ISIL people, have been hit, and only them.


Of course it is,fed up of them,and why are you crying for "civilians" ?
Any civilian in terrorist's held areas should fight them or die alongside them,the kids there are zombies and are playing soccer with beheaded heads,better to put down those zombies now or they will be more than a threat to the world.

[Porpoise101]

Hope the intended targets, the ISIL people, have been hit, and only them.

They said a few dozen civilians died but I don't have a good source about that... Some people were shaming France for killing civilians after the recent events but personally I think as long as civilians are not the target it is just a tragedy of war. They at least made sure it was night because that way people are in their homes.

[sqishy]

Of course it is,fed up of them,and why are you crying for "civilians" ?
Any civilian in terrorist's held areas should fight them or die alongside them,the kids there are zombies and are playing soccer with beheaded heads,better to put down those zombies now or they will be more than a threat to the world.

'Fed up of them'?

The people who died in Paris were civilians. Do you criticise crying for them??

[Exocet]

'Fed up of them'?

The people who died in Paris were civilians. Do you criticise crying for them??


You seem to be worried about the ISIS sympathizers in their territory ?
As i said,they should either fight them or die alongside them,that's simple. And if they don't fight them,that means they sympathize with them. And Raqqah is their stronghold,it should be bombed massively.

[Judean Zealot]

They said a few dozen civilians died but I don't have a good source about that... Some people were shaming France for killing civilians after the recent events but personally I think as long as civilians are not the target it is just a tragedy of war. They at least made sure it was night because that way people are in their homes.

Funny how nobody said this during the Gaza War two summers ago...

[Porpoise101]

Maybe exocet has a point... Monetarily wise a Parisian has a higher GDP per capita than a Syrian peasant in IS territory. So is it more of a tragedy? I cannot say because to me a soul has equal value.

[Sir Suomi]

Funny how nobody said this during the Gaza War two summers ago...

To be fair, both sides were guilty of war crimes, IMO

[sqishy]

You seem to be worried about the ISIS sympathizers in their territory ?
As i said,they should either fight them or die alongside them,that's simple. And if they don't fight them,that means they sympathize with them. And Raqqah is their stronghold,it should be bombed massively.

I don't see the jump to seeing me worrying about the ISIL sympathizers. Who are them to you? I'm lost.

By your view, does opression under fear equal sympathy? Is it that all-or-nothing in your view?

[Judean Zealot]

To be fair, both sides were guilty of war crimes, IMO

To be fair, every country is guilty of war crimes, Murica included. Which is why I call BS on that whole war crimes thing.

[sqishy]

To be fair, every country is guilty of war crimes, Murica included. Which is why I call BS on that whole war crimes thing.

Is Iceland guilty of war crimes? Is Luxembourg?
Do you mean every country? Just clarifying.


Either way, "[Their] sins do not pardon your own."

[Porpoise101]

Is Iceland guilty of war crimes? Is Luxembourg?
Do you mean every country? Just clarifying.


Either way, "[Their] sins do not pardon your own."
Yes because Iceland are Vikings and Luxembourg is ran by a grand Duke and Duke rhymes with puke. This all sounds like war crimes to me...

[sqishy]

Yes because Iceland are Vikings and Luxembourg is ran by a grand Duke and Duke rhymes with puke. This all sounds like war crimes to me...

I'll take that as sarcasm.

[thatcountrykid]

Time for war boys. Let's go

[Judean Zealot]

Is Iceland guilty of war crimes? Is Luxembourg?
Do you mean every country? Just clarifying.


Every country commits "war crimes" when at war. NATO, Russia, Balkans, Africa, Mid-East...

Either way, "[Their] sins do not pardon your own.

The only reason why "war crimes" are considered more immoral than ordinary warfare (which is, all the same, murdering young men), is on account of international consensus. Yet when the powers that be blatantly (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act) ignore those laws it ceases to hold the force of law, and it becomes nothing more than another tool of imperialism: "You stop that thing we don't like right now, or we'll hit you with a charge of war crimes".

[sqishy]

Every country commits "war crimes" when at war. NATO, Russia, Balkans, Africa, Mid-East...

Thanks for specifying. I agree here; it seems like the Geneva Convention (among other related things) is more there for convenience, where violations happen if seen as strategic. Formalities among formalities.


The only reason why "war crimes" are considered more immoral than ordinary warfare (which is, all the same, murdering young men), is on account of international consensus. Yet when the powers that be blatantly (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act) ignore those laws it ceases to hold the force of law, and it becomes nothing more than another tool of imperialism: "You stop that thing we don't like right now, or we'll hit you with a charge of war crimes".

I think I agree with this too.

[Uniquemind]

You're starting to swing around to the way I see the world.

There is action and consequence, there is no pure good or evil, it's just some actions promote one group of people at the cost and suffering of another, compounded but emotional grudges because life's unfair.

Civility is a luxury when resources are plentiful, civility ceases to exist when resources are scarce and too many people are competing for limited resources for survival. Those who are desperate and emotionally disenfranchised become attracted and hypnotized by extremist brainwashing propaganda, then they become the enemy. Religions have a bad reputation of filling in the void of "sense of belonging". It also provides black and white structure to the mentally ill who have a tendency to hurt people.

The best response a country's citizenry could take is to approach this issue not with an emotional thirst for revenge but rather a logical stance on cutting off their funding, recruitment tools, and the best way to do that is to disable social media recruitment tools and privacy laws preventing intelligence from doing it's job.

[Judean Zealot]

You're starting to swing around to the way I see the world.

God forbid. There is an objective good and evil, with good being the fulfillment of duty and evil being it's neglect. Among government's duty is the preservation of it's people's material safety, and if war is necessary for the preservation of above, then it ought to be fought in it's fullness, without regard to a few old gentlemen sitting in the Hague or UN.

The best response a country's citizenry could take is to approach this issue not with an emotional thirst for revenge but rather a logical stance on cutting off their funding, recruitment tools, and the best way to do that is to disable social media recruitment tools and privacy laws preventing intelligence from doing it's job.

This is the only part of your post I can fully agree with.

[sqishy]

mentally ill

I will assume you mean psychopaths, the severely brainwashed and similar kinds of people here.


Religions have a bad reputation of filling in the void of "sense of belonging". It also provides black and white structure to the mentally ill who have a tendency to hurt people.

I would say that it is more of a convenient strategic means for some of these people, rather than just a structure for one to meld one's mind onto as a hasty scaffold to prevent further demolition. I agree that only a structural function is used by many such people, but for many others, it's also a tool to use on others.


The best response a country's citizenry could take is to approach this issue not with an emotional thirst for revenge but rather a logical stance on cutting off their funding, recruitment tools, and the best way to do that is to disable social media recruitment tools and privacy laws preventing intelligence from doing it's job.

I agree apart from the intelligence part. Where necessary, information can be got through specialised local means, like drones or agents or the like. I do not like the idea of generalised mass surveillance for minority events, for more reasons than are relevant here.

[Uniquemind]

One first step of government is recognizing the potential of young people.

I think the government should (USA's and others) needs to look at it's young people who are angry and upset our peers who died, and allow us to troll all of Is' online recruitment tools.

If you can't fight in combat, (too young or female prevents you from combat) government should let strategic trolling with the aid of social media companies completely legal as a form of cyber warfare provided strict guidelines of non-taunting of their culture are practiced.

Obviously France responded with air raids, I don't think that's gonna work unless you use nukes, and since the cancer of this ideology has metastasized each country needs to identify sympathizers with Isis/Isil and eliminate them or contain them, and their purchasing power.

This may include amendments to any "bill of rights/civil right" protections in the name of national security.

[mattsmith48]

Obviously France responded with air raids, I don't think that's gonna work unless you use nukes, and since the cancer of this ideology has metastasized each country needs to identify sympathizers with Isis/Isil and eliminate them or contain them, and their purchasing power..

Your right bombing them is not gonna work and when you bomb them it hurts more civilians then ISIS and killing civilians when bombing ISIS is not different then what they did in Paris. Nukes even in this case would start WWIII in a week if not days and Nukes are worst then any other kind of terrorism.

[Porpoise101]

Your right bombing them is not gonna work and when you bomb them it hurts more civilians then ISIS and killing civilians when bombing ISIS is not different then what they did in Paris. Nukes even in this case would start WWIII in a week if not days and Nukes are worst then any other kind of terrorism.
It didn't kill civilians because they did it at night (during curfew) and at targets at the outskirts of the city. They probably only killed people near the munitions depot and the training fields which is what they bombed. An activist group in the city said no casualties but power was cut out.

[Stronk Serb]

Bomb the fuckers up. Hell, send in an expeditionary force to fight alongside Assad or something. The French can also send in the Foreign Legion. They are expendable as far as paying the family for losses come and they are a lot cheaper to pay in salaries. Also they won't die from bullets, on the field, a legionnaire has higher chances to die from tropical diseases.

[Sir Suomi]

https://slworona.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/ben-franklin-on-liberty-and-security-05182009.jpg

Just thought I'd leave this here for those suggesting that infringing on our civil rights is justifiable.

[Porpoise101]

I have to agree with Suomi. It's not really necessary to infringe on civil rights more than we already are. Our intelligence is good enough. I say that we ought to just keep doing what we are doing and eventually we can move from there if the winds change.

[Drewboyy]

How about sending troops to kill anyone who identifies as a member of a terrorist organization until the citizens over there actually do something and stop it themselves? And if during the process a few innocents are killed; so be it.
In the long run there will be less casualties in the West.

[Sir Suomi]

I just found out that my state has joined the many others in refusing to allow immigrants to resettle here. I'm pleased.

[mattsmith48]

I just found out that my state has joined the many others in refusing to allow immigrants to resettle here. I'm pleased.

Why is it a good thing your state is refusing immigrants?

[Uniquemind]

Your right bombing them is not gonna work and when you bomb them it hurts more civilians then ISIS and killing civilians when bombing ISIS is not different then what they did in Paris. Nukes even in this case would start WWIII in a week if not days and Nukes are worst then any other kind of terrorism.

Not necessarily, but the UN would all have to consent to the use of a nuke. It could not just be willy nilly.

The problem now is that the enemy has spread like cancer, across porous borders. The most logical response policy wise is to completely halt all international travel and lock down the borders.

You can accept refugees but they must live in ghettos, where they are fed, but kept alive as civilly as possible.

The problem is once their in the country nobody is babysitting them to make sure they're legit refugees and not Trojan horses.

The other aspect of this is forcing one's way into the black market to stop the flow of illegal guns and that will impact laws in countries regarding property, business, and privacy.


I have to agree with Suomi. It's not really necessary to infringe on civil rights more than we already are. Our intelligence is good enough. I say that we ought to just keep doing what we are doing and eventually we can move from there if the winds change.

Obviously it's not good enough, any absolutist policy or belief tends to be bad, and that includes civil rights. There are always valid exceptions of when to break a rule, problem is humanity doesn't adhere well to recognizing those exceptions and they tend to go overboard.

Ben Franklin didn't live with the pace this world has to offer. Not to mention historically he liked France.

This situation in present day would have seriously rattled his views quoted above.

Every country commits "war crimes" when at war. NATO, Russia, Balkans, Africa, Mid-East...



The only reason why "war crimes" are considered more immoral than ordinary warfare (which is, all the same, murdering young men), is on account of international consensus. Yet when the powers that be blatantly (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act) ignore those laws it ceases to hold the force of law, and it becomes nothing more than another tool of imperialism: "You stop that thing we don't like right now, or we'll hit you with a charge of war crimes".

Human nature in a nutshell that doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.

See we do have some similarity in how we see the world, especially with that last sentence.

[Porpoise101]

I just found out that my state has joined the many others in refusing to allow immigrants to resettle here. I'm pleased.
My state has also done this and I'm quite disappointed because Michigan has so many Arabs it's the perfect place.

[mattsmith48]

My state has also done this and I'm quite disappointed because Michigan has so many Arabs it's the perfect place.

Its disappointing anyone is refusing immigrants

[Stronk Serb]

My state has also done this and I'm quite disappointed because Michigan has so many Arabs it's the perfect place.

Well, I guess the stuff that happened in Paris due to a lack of regulations forced their hands.

[mattsmith48]

Well, I guess the stuff that happened in Paris due to a lack of regulations forced their hands.

ISIS did the attack on Paris. So the smart thing to do refuse to help people ruining away from ISIS

[Stronk Serb]

ISIS did the attack on Paris. So the smart thing to do refuse to help people ruining away from ISIS

Two of the gunners were registered refugees.

[mattsmith48]

Two of the gunners were registered refugees.

Thats 2 people. Why punish all those refugees because 2 people did something terrible? and btw all the others where not Syrian refugees and they were French

[Judean Zealot]

Thats 2 people. Why punish all those refugees because 2 people did something terrible? and btw all the others where not Syrian refugees and they were French

French descendants of North African Muslim immigrants.

It's not a matter of 'punishing' the refugees. It's simply unsafe to take in large populations from that region.

[mattsmith48]

French descendants of North African Muslim immigrants.

It's not a matter of 'punishing' the refugees. It's simply unsafe to take in large populations from that region.

After all the refugees they accepted there was only 2 that got through its kinda hard to do better then that

[Judean Zealot]

After all the refugees they accepted there was only 2 that got through its kinda hard to do better then that

It was "only" 130 of their people killed. Besides, there will be another two, and another, and another...

This isn't the first attack done by Muslims in France. There were the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January, as well as the Toulouse attacks some time ago.

[Arkansasguy]

The terrorism issue is a distraction to the "should we accept huge amounts of foreigners into our country" issue. Even if there weren't any terrorists, it would still be cultural suicide.

[mattsmith48]

It was "only" 130 of their people killed. Besides, there will be another two, and another, and another...

This isn't the first attack done by Muslims in France. There were the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January, as well as the Toulouse attacks some time ago.

Were those Muslims Syrian refugees?

[Judean Zealot]

Were those Muslims Syrian refugees?

No, North African migrants. The precise conflict they escaped is irrelevant. What's relevant is the fact that they are all coming from the same Wahabbi strongholds.

[mattsmith48]

No, North African migrants. The precise conflict they escaped is irrelevant. What's relevant is the fact that they are all coming from the same Wahabbi strongholds.

How do you stop them from snicking in better then they do it now

[Judean Zealot]

How do you stop them from snicking in better then they do it now

They're not (generally speaking) sneaking in. The left wingers have been piling them in for decades.

[Uniquemind]

I thought it was also discovered that there might be a 9th accomplice?

Anyway from what I heard by watching the news, is that most of the attackers actually where French citizens themselves that were homegrown, not refugees with the exception of two.

So the knee-jerk reaction against accepting refugees actually needs to be reconsidered.

[Porpoise101]

The terrorism issue is a distraction to the "should we accept huge amounts of foreigners into our country" issue. Even if there weren't any terrorists, it would still be cultural suicide.
Is 10K temporary people a massive amount in a country of 330 mil? Considering it can take up to 2 years to get all the documents in the US I don't think it needs to be delayed anymore.

Also I think Europe had a bigger issue with terrorists in their own lands as they have a large population of people descended from immigrants who are disenfranchised and aren't ever allowed to be assimilated or become European.

[Arkansasguy]

Is 10K temporary people a massive amount in a country of 330 mil? Considering it can take up to 2 years to get all the documents in the US I don't think it needs to be delayed anymore.

Also I think Europe had a bigger issue with terrorists in their own lands as they have a large population of people descended from immigrants who are disenfranchised and aren't ever allowed to be assimilated or become European.

I was mainly referring to Europe.

[Stronk Serb]

Thats 2 people. Why punish all those refugees because 2 people did something terrible? and btw all the others where not Syrian refugees and they were French

Like Judean Zealot told you, they came from North Africa. A large percent of the 'refugees' are not even Syrian, they only pose as such.

[Miserabilia]

Like Judean Zealot told you, they came from North Africa. A large percent of the 'refugees' are not even Syrian, they only pose as such.

Well give me this "large percent' then.

[Judean Zealot]

Like Judean Zealot told you, they came from North Africa. A large percent of the 'refugees' are not even Syrian, they only pose as such.

I'm not referring strictly to the current wave of refugees. France has been flooded with North African migrants ever since the war in Algeria.

[Stronk Serb]

Miserabilia

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3240010/Number-refugees-arriving-Europe-soars-85-year-just-one-five-war-torn-Syria.html

Also there were numerous reports of discarded documents by refugees before entering EU countries via Serbia. Unfortunately, the only sources were in Serbian. I can link them if you want

[Uniquemind]

Seems like everyone wants to go to greener pastures than to build up their own countries.

This is a problem for sure.

[Stronk Serb]

Seems like everyone wants to go to greener pastures than to build up their own countries.

This is a problem for sure.

The thing is, so much people are running away from Syria, especially men. There won't be anyone left to rebuild it after the war.

[Jinglebottom]

The thing is, so much people are running away from Syria, especially men. There won't be anyone left to rebuild it after the war.
Maybe once they're all kicked out and deported back to their homeland.

[Porpoise101]

The thing is, so much people are running away from Syria, especially men. There won't be anyone left to rebuild it after the war.
Usually people go back to their homelands in these situations. The only times they don't is if they get stuck or if their nation gets invaded like how there are many Tibetans in India.

Also lots of people don't like them so they would probably get kicked out eventually.

[Miserabilia]

The thing is, so much people are running away from Syria, especially men. There won't be anyone left to rebuild it after the war.

Doesn't seem like there's much to rebuild.
From dicatator to civial war, they shouldn't rebuild; just build a new land a new democracy for it's original people. Kind of what IS is doing but without the violence and the retarded foundation of radical islam

[Stronk Serb]

Doesn't seem like there's much to rebuild.
From dicatator to civial war, they shouldn't rebuild; just build a new land a new democracy for it's original people. Kind of what IS is doing but without the violence and the retarded foundation of radical islam

The same was about Yugoslavia, yet the generation of my grandparents rebuilt it. No matter how bombed it is, you can always rebuild it.