View Full Version : when boys cum...
CheerGirl98
January 20th, 2014, 02:05 AM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
abc983055235235231a
January 20th, 2014, 02:08 AM
Wear condoms --> that way it doesn't matter if you cum inside or not.
You typically have a lead up to your orgasm, but that's not really a reliable guide for pulling out.
It shoots out.
WHTaft09
January 20th, 2014, 02:09 AM
For me, I can definitely feel it coming. There is a build up. Also it either shoots or dribbles out, it's not a steady stream like when a guy pees. For me, I shoot.
XZoDiaCX
January 20th, 2014, 02:48 AM
Well i think for the most of the boys the feel it coming. there is a build up. and sometimes its just dribbles out and sometimes shoot :)
fordgtguy
January 20th, 2014, 03:02 AM
build up for sure and sometimes you shoot sometimes you don't like today I masturbated for the first time in 2 weeks and it got messy let's say that lol
nik511881
January 20th, 2014, 04:45 AM
i usually dont cum inside (not like I get a lot of chances anyway lol). Don't wanna get the girl preggo.
AlexOnToast
January 20th, 2014, 07:48 AM
There is a build up, but that doesnt make it controlable. Contraception is the only good way to go if you are afraid of pregnancy
Hermes
January 20th, 2014, 08:20 AM
There are feelings leading up to orgasm including a feeling of being almost there and a feeling of going over the edge where cumming is now inevitable but nothing has come out yet.
That said you have to remember that instinct plays a part here. If you are expecting a guy to pull out but between you, you leave it very late then instinct takes over and his instinct is to push his penis in as far as it will go, not pull it out.
It is tempting to try to get to the point of no return I mentioned ealier, where the guy has had enough similation that cumming is now inevitable but nothering has actually come out of his penis yet, and then pull out but it is very hard to make that work. If you really want to do the pull out thing I think you have to go for pulling out slightly earlier which means one of you needs to grab his penis and stroke to finish him off.
Alternatively you can:
1. Use a condom so he can finish inside you without the risk.
2. Pull out even earlier and finish with a blow job.
Regarding pregnancy risk there is a small risk from sperm in pre-cum with the pull out method but by far the biggest risk is intending to pull out but not doing so.
I just noticed I only answered half of the question.
Unlike pee which tends to come out in a continous stream cum tends to come out in discrete spurts with usually the second and third ones being the strongest and then gradually weakening until there is none left. How hard it squirts depends on various things like the guys genetics, how developed he is, how long it has been since his previous cum how turned on he was when you started and how long you have been at it before he finally cums. Everything from a dribble to really poweful shots is normal.
Steven1
January 20th, 2014, 12:06 PM
There will be a feeling for it before it starts shooting. When it does release, it doesn't come out like urine. Some people dribble in which semen will, obviously, dribble from the glans of the penis. Other's shoot, where it, clearly, shoots. How it's released will vary greatly depending on a number of factors.
hermanthefish
January 20th, 2014, 12:50 PM
First of all, always use condoms, because pulling out is not a good method of contraception. A boy can feel their orgasm building up. It feels kinda like you have to pee. And it sometimes shoots out, or sometimes dribbles, but its not like pee because its not in a continuos stream.
everlong
January 20th, 2014, 01:04 PM
There's a build up, but it's still very hard to control. Also, cum doesn't come out in a stream like peeing, it either dribbles or shoots.
JamesJB
January 20th, 2014, 01:58 PM
yeah theres a build up 2 it but them it becomes overwhelming... also it either shoots out or dribbles out depending how far in puberty u r or since u last did it :p
Swimmie
January 20th, 2014, 03:07 PM
Never trust a guy that says he will pull out...
He most probably won't... and I'm guilty of not letting a guy pull out once :P i held him with my legs... damn those female instincts hahaha
NotShortButFunsized
January 20th, 2014, 03:21 PM
Damn female instincts!
true though...they're too good to resist :p ...not always in a bad way though lol
moral of the story-don't trust your future on anything that depends on someone doing what they're programmed not to
scyth
January 20th, 2014, 04:01 PM
there is definitely a build up, until it becomes too much and you just "explode" quite literally most times cause cum comes out. no it doesnt come out like pee. its only a few bursts, which can dribble or can squirt out so to speak.
dribble usually dribbles down the head or just out a small bit. but i've seen vids where guys can squirt the length of a girls torso.
basball999
January 20th, 2014, 04:48 PM
Me personally I can feel when I'm about to cum
rambo_24
January 20th, 2014, 05:15 PM
It is some what controllable and you can feel when its coming, if your experienced. I would say it definetly shoots out, not like pee
deregisterme
January 20th, 2014, 05:29 PM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
Weather masturbating or sex, you can start to feel it build. For me the PC muscle start's to tighten, there's almost a sense of an urge to pee, and a few seconds before cumming, there is the point of no return, and then there is a loss of control. Boys will either shoot or dribble cum, so it's different from peeing
Shailene
January 20th, 2014, 06:42 PM
nothing too new to add, but in my experience guys can usually tell when they're about to pop. The time between that feeling and them actually popping is pretty short. It depends too on the intensity of what you were doing and how much control the guy has. However like everyone said, condoms are the way to go if you're worried about him cumming inside you.
Thedoctorisin
January 20th, 2014, 08:04 PM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
Nothing new to add so what are female orgasms like? Is there a point of no return like in men? Is it centaralized to the gentital area like men or is it all over? What does it feel like to squirt
topher3141
January 20th, 2014, 10:36 PM
pretty hard to control
Hermes
January 21st, 2014, 10:09 AM
Never trust a guy that says he will pull out...
He most probably won't... and I'm guilty of not letting a guy pull out once :P i held him with my legs... damn those female instincts hahaha
I think this makes a very important point. While human have sex for pleasure all the instincts around sex, which are really strong, are about reproduction. A guy's instinct is to get his penis as far in as possible while he cums to get his sperm closer to the cervix and therefore better placed to swim for the egg and you tell me a girls insticts are to help him do that.
It is worth noting that there is a rhythm method of contraception which essentially relies on only having sex when the girl is not close to ovulating and therefore there should be no egg to fertilise. This is another invention that runs contrary to instinct because most girls are at their horniest when they are about to ovulate. Their bodies are saying to them "quick, get some sperm inside you so you can have a baby".
Contraception is more likely to be sucessful if it does not rely on people having the self control to not do what they feel instinctively driven to do. The condom and the hormonal contraception (such as the pill, but also implants etc.) are very effective though the condom has the advantage of protecting against many STIs.
NotShortButFunsized
January 21st, 2014, 12:15 PM
I think this makes a very important point. While human have sex for pleasure all the instincts around sex, which are really strong, are about reproduction. A guy's instinct is to get his penis as far in as possible while he cums to get his sperm closer to the cervix and therefore better placed to swim for the egg and you tell me a girls insticts are to help him do that.
It is worth noting that there is a rhythm method of contraception which essentially relies on only having sex when the girl is not close to ovulating and therefore there should be no egg to fertilise. This is another invention that runs contrary to instinct because most girls are at their horniest when they are about to ovulate. Their bodies are saying to them "quick, get some sperm inside you so you can have a baby".
Contraception is more likely to be sucessful if it does not rely on people having the self control to not do what they feel instinctively driven to do
Well of course both genders are wired to maximize the possibility of reproduction, like you said, a boy wants to get deep and a girl feels the need to hold on and keep him in. It's also a good point that those instincts all fly in the face of how we try to get away with doing things like pulling out or the rhythm method, yet we try anyways.
happy420
January 21st, 2014, 01:58 PM
yeah i agree with most ppl here guys can tell if they are about to cum, even if they think they might cum he should pull out im sure theres differnt ways to finish ;)
Loca
January 21st, 2014, 02:00 PM
Coitus interrupts, its proper term, is not healthy! It can have a physcological effect on the body. And mind. Probs phsycosomatic. Precum can even get lady preggers. And men don't even feel that coming!
jampandrada
January 23rd, 2014, 09:35 AM
There's a definite build up to when i cum, but it's not like we mind it when we're busy, if you know what I mean. And it normally shoots out. I've never heard of it coming out like pee.
Waleedbt
January 23rd, 2014, 09:43 AM
Its a skill, not everyone is capable, but with practice.. Sure.
Basically , dont trust someone to pull it out lol.
hoboliz
January 23rd, 2014, 01:40 PM
The general concensus seems to be that, yes, guys can tell beforehand but don't want to take responsibility for pulling out, so you should probably just make them wear condoms.
Zachary G
January 23rd, 2014, 01:57 PM
there is a build up just before a boy cums, he gets this feeling that kinda runs through him, so there is plenty of warning time for him to pull out -- if he wanted to.
kenny89
January 23rd, 2014, 03:14 PM
theres a build up. u can feel it like 10secs before u actually shoot
Tendencies
January 23rd, 2014, 07:52 PM
It shoots, and like what i've experienced is that the feeling does kinda sneak up on ya. But i can most of the time control it.
kinger
January 23rd, 2014, 07:54 PM
You usually have a lead up to cumming but not always and it shoots out its not like pee lol
Rallo
January 25th, 2014, 01:11 AM
For your question asking if guys have any kind of 'lead up' to it...
The best way to look at it, think of it a bit like sneezing..
Sometimes you can tell you're about to sneeze, sometimes it just happens so quick that you have no real warning.
For your other question, it depends mostly on firstly the person themselves (it's different for everyone) and secondly how many times/how often they've ejaculate over the few days prior to having sex. If they haven't at all, in that case it will more then likely "shoot" out. If they've ejaculated a few times prior to it (over the few days leading up to having sex) it may just sort of drizzle out; not really shoot out.
Either way, wear a condom no matter what. A guy simply "pulling out" is no where near a safety measure.
JollyToes
January 25th, 2014, 01:22 AM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
He's bullshitting you. A guy def knows when he is going to cum and has time to pull out.
As far as "shooting" goes some guys have more forceful ejaculations than others.
Rallo
January 25th, 2014, 06:39 AM
He's bullshitting you. A guy def knows when he is going to cum and has time to pull out.
As far as "shooting" goes some guys have more forceful ejaculations than others.
I wouldn't say it's bullshitting, I would say it's a mix of him assuming that what he said is somewhat true, as well as saying it to encourage the use of other safety measures (condoms, etc) instead of relying on pulling out.
JollyToes
January 25th, 2014, 07:10 AM
I guess I took it as more of him trying to justify if he is getting oral and "forgets" to tell her he is cuming. Idk, just thinking like a guy and since I'm not sure what ur gender is bc u failed to fill that part out, I'm not sure the basis of your justification.
nachorip
January 25th, 2014, 01:11 PM
You ccan definitely control whether or not you finish inside
TheFSM
January 25th, 2014, 11:10 PM
I've not had sex yet, but personally, it's a matter of seconds leading up, so not much time.
And, for some boys it kinda shoots out, for others it just dribbles, it depends on who ya ask, really.
TheFSM
January 25th, 2014, 11:11 PM
The general concensus seems to be that, yes, guys can tell beforehand but don't want to take responsibility for pulling out, so you should probably just make them wear condoms.
Sound advice...
kylem
January 26th, 2014, 02:15 PM
for me because I haven't actually had sex yet, just mostly masturbate, but you can totally feel when its going to happen especially when you start edging. then you can't hold back anymore because it feels like really intense awesome pressure then you have to let it cum, then you explode and it feels sooo good!
Voodo
January 27th, 2014, 08:19 PM
for me there is a definite build up
nick_1999
January 28th, 2014, 03:12 PM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
We have a bit of a lead, but yeah it's hard to control. And it shoots out in pulses, so it's not really like pissing.
Hope this helped! :D
grimoir666
January 29th, 2014, 10:27 AM
i have never cum inside but i can definitly feel the pressure building before i ejaculate, i have lots of precum ooze out in a slow stream as soon as i get hard but when i cum it spurts out in about 6 spurts
Liam Peter
January 30th, 2014, 07:28 PM
For me their is build up, so it's a little easier to control
AlexBoy
January 30th, 2014, 07:37 PM
I always know well in advance, you can feel it start to build and get stronger and stronger until it gets to the point of no return and you know its going to happen
chiisaiaoiryu
January 30th, 2014, 08:31 PM
We as guys do have a tell, or notice, when we're about to cum. However, the thing here is that some guys are first time at sex in the situation you described. That's when they really should use protection since they have no idea how they'll react once they start with full-on sex.
On our first time, it might be a mistake on our part to cum inside. It's not too big of a deal with protection on, but it's bad, be you girl or receiving guy, to get an unexpected surprise. After our first time, we tend to know what the feeling is during full-on sex and will learn when it is we should pull out if we ever decide to go without protection.
If it's not their first time and they say they still don't know when to pull out, that's when you should start distrusting them about their actual sexual experience and whatnot. But yeah, i hope this answered your question about how us guys deal with ejaculation.
JonBarleyCorn
February 9th, 2014, 02:23 PM
It's all diff for diff people like anything I guess. But I get a strong signal first -- so plenty of time to pull out. Or maybe I am just cautious. Much comes out in thick jets -- like spurts. Not like peeing -- not like a steady thing. More WHOOSH...>WHOOSH....WHOOOSHHH.
jjj8995
February 11th, 2014, 10:54 PM
you can feel it, but you dont wanna stop.
Collins1
February 12th, 2014, 05:49 PM
For me, i can feel it about to 'come out'.
And it shoots.
Philleeep
February 12th, 2014, 06:04 PM
Well i think for the most of the boys the feel it coming. there is a build up. and sometimes its just dribbles out and sometimes shoot :)
Agree for sure. Although it doesn't come out like pee, a continuous stream, it comes out in bursts with slight pauses.
Jstr
February 12th, 2014, 07:14 PM
that friend is a liar and don't have sex with him
as for your question lol
we feel it coming out
and it depends on the man
Brown13
February 12th, 2014, 07:35 PM
Theres always a lead up unless theres something medically wrong that you should know about
Suave
February 12th, 2014, 08:32 PM
You can feel it build up. Some guys don't pull out I guess because they are too engaged and others can pull out just before. It can shot out is squirts or dribble out.
backjruton
February 15th, 2014, 04:22 PM
There's a build up, I shoot all the time XD
Dwemer
February 15th, 2014, 07:32 PM
Buildup but during sex it can be overwhelming so its hard to pull out. I shoot.
Your Captain
February 15th, 2014, 07:49 PM
There is a build up to it
Jeonard
February 15th, 2014, 08:05 PM
for me there is a definate build up and i shoot
DarkHorse4eva
February 19th, 2014, 11:46 AM
for me its a lead up, and i can feel right before i'm about to cum
it shoots out, i don't think anybody have it like pee
whiteskittle
February 27th, 2014, 09:49 PM
I can feel it build up but once i start cumming i cant control it. It doesnt come out like pee. It either leaks/dribbles out or shoots out like a squirt gun
Dracarys
February 28th, 2014, 04:30 PM
You can normally feel the cum about to come out.
Personally out of the 4 times I've had sex,I've always pulled my dick out everytime I'm about to cum,so mostly I do it above the vagina,or inside her mouth if she asks or on the breats.
Daniella98
February 28th, 2014, 04:40 PM
If he fails to pull out even if he said he would, I say: 'So have you got any ideas on what to name your son?'
Bboy35
March 6th, 2014, 01:47 PM
for me there is a definite build up
For me too. It's like this fantastic growing feeling and I know when I'm about ready to cum. I know when I'm at the point of no return and my sperm is going to come out no matter what.
billys-big-gun
March 7th, 2014, 06:54 AM
All guys can control it and we all know when were going to cum some are just lazy or selfish when it reaches thethe pull out moment
sazhedison
March 17th, 2014, 07:03 AM
they can feel it. you know when you get a vocal guy who shouts "im gonna cum" 10 seconds before he blows but starts thrusting harder. best thing to do is get him out and give him a hand. selfish not to
Jackman1800
March 29th, 2014, 03:34 PM
it shoots out
Hazard9997
March 29th, 2014, 05:14 PM
For boys, they can usually feel their orgasm coming. It doesn't really happen suddenly.
Whether it shoots out or dribbles out normally depends on whether its natural for him to shoot or dribble, or, how sexually stimulated he is. For me, I am the latter option. For example, if I've only been masturbating for about 15 minutes, my cum will dribble out, but if I've prolonged the experience for around over 30 mins, my cum will shoot out and three will be a lot more.
hockeyfan
March 30th, 2014, 02:22 AM
It shoots or dribbles. It depends on the person.
It's right after the orgasm that it happens.
Curious.kid
March 30th, 2014, 04:44 AM
You can feel it get stronger and stronger kind of like a sneeze. Then it spurts out like a pumping soap into your hands. It's not like peeing because peeing is a constant stream. Spurting is more powerful and feels much better like the best thing in the world for real!
rexmagnus
March 30th, 2014, 07:12 PM
I've always thought of it as sneezing with my penis. Once I'm over the edge, there's no stopping it. I've never had sex, but I'd imagine it would be really hard to pull out at the right moment, because it's hard to override the instinctive movements which happen when I cum. I'll never know, since I'm waiting until I'm married, and I don't ever intend to pull out.
BreakFall
March 31st, 2014, 12:41 AM
It shoots and you get warning it builds up
Walter
March 31st, 2014, 01:09 AM
You can control it to a point. Just like a sneeze you can kinda hold it off for a few moments while you do what is needed to do. I would say you have a good 5-8 second warning before you are for sure it will "explode."
Shado99
March 31st, 2014, 03:36 AM
well there is a build up and i dribble most of the time
Ricky.h
March 31st, 2014, 03:47 AM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
This is how it is. When a guy is beating his dick or fucking there's a build up, and during that build up he has a sense of control, but when a guy gets to that point of no return it's hard for a guy to come to his senses and not release his nut where it was...not saying it's impossible but usually we as men just go on auto, so the pull out method isn't good, because pre cum is a factor too, but a guy could forget, or in the process of pulling out still nut inside of you.. From experience I've gotten a girl pregnant because I thought I was sexually experienced enough to pull out, but I was so used to not using condoms with my gf, and I had a moment of fuck it and just nutted in her (she had a miscarriage), so it's crazy and a bad situation to be in to be young with a child, so if you want to have sex have either condoms or be on BC lol
Emmaxxoo
April 5th, 2014, 03:30 AM
Guys never pull out...NEVER
Ricky.h
April 5th, 2014, 06:37 AM
Guys never pull out...NEVER
For the most part we don't...at most we start nutting and then pull out during the process
Pittsburgh
April 7th, 2014, 08:10 PM
I usually know about 4 seconds before it shoots, and i definetely shoot
Landbuscus97
April 7th, 2014, 08:21 PM
Most guys can feel the build up, but sometimes it takes 'training' to recognize when you're getting close. As for cum it usually dribbles out or shoots out, all in small bursts as the penis has contractions
Hey-Im-Connor
April 7th, 2014, 10:53 PM
it shoots, and there is some lead up but it's hard to do anything while its happening
Jason98
April 11th, 2014, 10:38 PM
I definitely know when its gonna happen.
Once I hit the point of no return (a couple seconds before) it comes shooting out big time and I cant stop it :)...which is why I never use the pull out method during sex (except once).
Lodan
April 12th, 2014, 02:52 AM
I definitely know for sure. But I can definitely understand when you say you become overwhelmed
plebble
April 12th, 2014, 04:46 PM
Yes there is a very long lead up and you know when it's going to happen.
When you're about to ejaculate in a woman's vagina you know it's going to happen and you know you shouldn't, but your brain is in a fight with what's the right thing to do and what feels better. The feeling better usually dominates. I guess the same reason people choose to procrastinate than do their homework.
Curious.kid
April 12th, 2014, 04:55 PM
Guys never pull out...NEVER
Why? Isn't it easy?
The captain
April 12th, 2014, 05:01 PM
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?....i feel when gonna cum but sometimes no a lot before
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?...shoot for me
btw Im still virgin so only jerking
Brightwolf
April 12th, 2014, 06:21 PM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
I "lead up" I also shoot. Although I am a vergin so I don't really know…
Eurasian guy
April 13th, 2014, 06:24 AM
Boys, since im a girl I don't know much about the male orgasm lol. I was told by a guy friend that during sex a lot of guys cum inside because they can't control it.
So I was wondering this:
Do guys have any lead up to their cum or do you just suddenly become overwhelmed and start shooting?
Also, does it "shoot" out or come out like pee?
It's not that we can't control it, because we can. And it is a build up feeling before so we know it's coming. But the "pull out" method isn't a reliable technique. Lol, it shoots. Well at least for me, it's like 6 thick shots. But every guy is different with how much they shoot, but it's always shooting, never heard of a guys load come out like peeing lmao
chrisawesome
April 13th, 2014, 11:17 PM
Honestly I would be careful when a guy is inside me if I were a girl. We can feel orgasms coming up, but its almost impossible to stop it. And the pleasures of sex get so intense that it hard to actually want to pull out. You should have the guy do the vaginal stuff first and then butt when there is a higher chance of ejaculating. It MUCH safer for a guy to cum in your butt or in your mouth than your V!! Pm me if ya have questions. I wouldn't mind
LeftyD
May 1st, 2014, 09:35 PM
Guys dont cum inside because the cant control it
they may not be able to pull out fast enough and accidentally cum inside
but there is a build up that ends with the orgasm
DylanAwesome
May 1st, 2014, 09:55 PM
I can feel it leading up and can control pulling out or not.
It shoots
Lonely teen
May 1st, 2014, 10:28 PM
If a guy cums in you its cause he wanted too, how can you not feel it coming.
Zakitak
May 2nd, 2014, 12:27 AM
Well from what I've been told by girls that I've came inside, it feels like it suddenly gets sorta harder and bigger. Generally a guy would start thrusting harder too, once it happens to you (even if he is wearing a condom) you will start to realize the signs!
Hermes
May 2nd, 2014, 06:16 AM
Why? Isn't it easy?
In theory it should be, after all you do feel it coming and, when masturbating, it is possible to do something just before you cum, for example to make it go somewhere cleanup will be easier.
The problem, though, is instinct. Our instincts that relate to sex are about reproduction and when having sex a guys instinct when he is about to ejaculate is to push his penis as far in as possible to get his sperm as close as possible to where the egg will be, i.e. the exact opposite of pulling out.
pogobowl_1
May 4th, 2014, 10:18 PM
A lead up and it shoots out
boarder67
May 5th, 2014, 03:51 PM
yes there is a build up
nudyboy14
May 5th, 2014, 06:08 PM
I can tell when its about to happen, and i grab my towel to use.
austinchatten
May 5th, 2014, 08:37 PM
It builds up. But it depends on how turned on I am weather it shoots or dribbles out.
DeeHaz
May 6th, 2014, 10:14 AM
I decide to take control. I always tell him to tell me when he's going to cum, and when he does I just sit up, grab his knob, say dirty things to him and come up really close. That way he's excited, cums and i have no worries down below- even though i'm or the bar anyway.
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