Mother tongue

[tovaris]

The topic of ones mother tonge has come up in a recent descusion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198883). I i wanted to hear from a brother audience (not to mention keep on topic in that descision).
That is your opinion on the subject of a Mother tongue?

In my opinion a nations language shoukd newer be aloved to die as long as that nation exists. A mother tounge is something everione should be able to speak with pride and no fear of opression. Not like what i hear that some people are doing... teaching their kids "a world language" insted of their own.
Understand also where i am comming from. I speak a language with les than 4 milion speakers worldwide, and belonges to a nation with cca 2 milion members, historycly the language has been opressed (until ww1 when things started shifting) and yet it endured almost a milenia of opression. And here we are not having to learn our own language asbsecond bit it being our first. This is what i wish for all nations languages anywhere in the world.

What is your opinion on the mather.

[Tarannosaurus]

I think it's important to preserve languages, it's a huge shame when languages are allowed to be forgotten. It's especially important from a historical point of view. If no one knows the language to translate old documents, very important information from the past can be lost.

[Miserabilia]

I aggree. The mother language should be preserved as a form of culture.

[tovaris]

Ah I see Irish here is compulsory unless you have an exemption, which my mother told me I was eligible for after the Junior Cert exams :P Exemptions are hard to get though and I since I did the exam and have been learning it for 12 years I can't get one now. For the leaving cert we can do it at foundation/ordinary/higher level with 40% of the final mark for an oral exam. Foundation isn't counted for any colleges though. Irish is heading down that track too, hardly anyone remembers it after school. Apparently 94,000 people speak Irish daily but even when I went to a gaeltacht the only time I heard Irish was when it was mixed with English.

Now this is extremly sad. That a nation has aloved the agressor language to take ower... i think that the facts speak for themselves

[Tarannosaurus]

Now this is extremly sad. That a nation has aloved the agressor language to take ower... i think that the facts speak for themselves

I think the language could recover but it would take a huge effort.

[tovaris]

I think the language could recover but it would take a huge effort.

I think they should make such an efort. Noone should give up their mother tongue.

[Miserabilia]

I think they should make such an efort. Noone should give up their mother tongue.

I aggree, but sadly there are very little linguistics in this world

[Tarannosaurus]

I think they should make such an efort. Noone should give up their mother tongue.

An effort is being made by the people who care, but a lot of people just don't care.

[tovaris]

I aggree, but sadly there are very little linguistics in this world

I dont think that is the problem, the story of my language (a story that has been pounden down my throat for 11 years now) is a testiment that the nations will is enouth to turn a dwindeling flame of a language into a powerfull light.

An effort is being made by the people who care, but a lot of people just don't care.

Now if you as me that is yust wrong. To abandon your own language like that...

[Tarannosaurus]

I dont think that is the problem, the story of my language (a story that has been pounden down my throat for 11 years now) is a testiment that the nations will is enouth to turn a dwindeling flame of a language into a powerfull light.



Now if you as me that is yust wrong. To abandon your own language like that...

Well you can't force people to start speaking the language.

[tovaris]

Well you can't force people to start speaking the language.

1. Wha on earth did they stop in the first place?
2. You can encourage them. Bilingual sines, national tv should brodcast in the national language (with programs that respect minoreties), laws should be writen in the national language, so should books, public ofitials should speak the national language (with respect to minoreties)......etc...

[Tarannosaurus]

1. Wha on earth did they stop in the first place?
2. You can encourage them. Bilingual sines, national tv should brodcast in the national language (with programs that respect minoreties), laws should be writen in the national language, so should books, public ofitials should speak the national language (with respect to minoreties)......etc...

1. They were invaded by Britain around a thousand-ish years ago. Irish people were pushed to the west province (poorest soil) which still has the highest amount of Irish speakers. Irish people who sought work on the plantations needed English. In times such as the famine in the 1800s it was basically learn English to get work, or a place in a workhouse or starve to death. 1 million people died. Obviously they aren't speaking Irish anymore. Another million emigrated to England, America, etc and of course they would need English.

2. Already being done.

[Harry Smith]

To the OP: why do you make everything into some sort of rabid colonist struggle- first it's Scottish independence, then it's the Falklands. Now your making it out as if Scottish and Irish people have been forced to speak English at the point of a gun which is simply not true.

We spent something like 3 million pounds getting road signs in the welsh language when only 19% of the whole country speak the language. It's a complete waste of money.

A mother tounge is something everione should be able to speak with pride and no fear of opression

Once again pure Rhetoric, we're not on a campaign trail

[tovaris]

1. They were invaded by Britain around a thousand-ish years ago. Irish people were pushed to the west province (poorest soil) which still has the highest amount of Irish speakers. Irish people who sought work on the plantations needed English. In times such as the famine in the 1800s it was basically learn English to get work, or a place in a workhouse or starve to death. 1 million people died. Obviously they aren't speaking Irish anymore. Another million emigrated to England, America, etc and of course they would need English.

2. Already being done.

1. We were anexed by the franko enpire 1000ish years ago soon after the frankan metode of cristačinazation started (killing pegans, latin language in curch... and have been under german rule until wwI. Our area of settelment shrunk segnificantly, and the language was only spoken by pesents and low city people.
And yet we endure, the language endures... and is going strong.

2. Whel good than. :)

To the OP: why do you make everything into some sort of rabid colonist struggle- first it's Scottish independence, then it's the Falklands. Now your making it out as if Scottish and Irish people have been forced to speak English at the point of a gun which is simply not true.

We spent something like 3 million pounds getting road signs in the welsh language when only 19% of the whole country speak the language. It's a complete waste of money.



Once again pure Rhetoric, we're not on a campaign trail

I dont remember mentoning the scottish, irish, english of welsh in the original post.
I do remember mentoning my own language thow... I know i am a bad speller and my slight disleksia isnt helping, but is it realy that wrong that the "evil" scots found their way into the original post?

I dont remember from no history book that your people were so nice to the Irish when wisiting the island.

[Tarannosaurus]

1. We were anexed by the franko enpire 1000ish years ago soon after the frankan metode of cristačinazation started (killing pegans, latin language in curch... and have been under german rule until wwI. Our area of settelment shrunk segnificantly, and the language was only spoken by pesents and low city people.
And yet we endure, the language endures... and is going strong.

2. Whel good than. :)

Ireland wasn't independent until 1922 and it's a very small country. Well good for you, but if people don't care if the language endures or not there's not a whole lot that can be done...

[tovaris]

[LIST=1]


Ireland wasn't independent until 1922 and it's a very small country. Well good for you, but if people don't care if the language endures or not there's not a whole lot that can be done...

1945 when we first got our one country, with today 2,5 milion people, much smaler than ireland...bla bla bla...etc

Thats a tru bumer if the people dont care about their own language, but that can be changed with nurture, the upbringing of a child should raise their awerenes of their own nationalety and language.

[Vlerchan]

Ireland wasn't independent until 1922 and it's a very small country.In 1922 Ireland only became a dominion of the British commonwealth. Britain still exercised some degree of control over Irish affairs so we weren't really independent. Even after the replacing of the 1922 constitution with the 1937 constitution the British monarch still had control over Irish affairs - though it was especially limited - and so we remained a member of the British commonwealth until the Republic of Ireland Act in 1949 and the end of External Association - and then we were truly independent. Though I won't say that you're wrong in your belief that we effectively ran as an independent nation from 1922 onwards.

On to the actual topic: If the government wants students to learn a language then they should be providing some form of incentive to do so. There is currently no incentive that I can identify to learn Irish and that's a huge problem.

[Tarannosaurus]

1945 when we first got our one country, with today 2,5 milion people, much smaler than ireland...bla bla bla...etc

Thats a tru bumer if the people dont care about their own language, but that can be changed with nurture, the upbringing of a child should raise their awerenes of their own nationalety and language.

Sorry you said wwI so I thought you meant somewhere around 1918. Yes but it's up to those people, what if they decide not to?

In 1922 Ireland only became a dominion of the British commonwealth. Britain still exercised some degree of control over Irish affairs so we weren't really independent. Even after the replacing of the 1922 constitution with the 1937 constitution the British monarch still had control over Irish affairs - though it was especially limited - and so we remained a member of the British commonwealth until the Republic of Ireland Act in 1949 and the end of External Association - and then we were truly independent. Though I won't say that you're wrong in your belief that we effectively ran as an independent nation from 1922 onwards.

On to the actual topic: If the government wants students to learn a language then they should be providing some form of incentive to do so. There is currently no incentive that I can identify to learn Irish and that's a huge problem.

Ah I see jc history doesn't tell the whole story. No incentive whatsoever. I personally hate the way it's taught especially when you know that you won't use it after you finish school.

[tovaris]

Sorry you said wwI so I thought you meant somewhere around 1918. Yes but it's up to those people, what if they decide not to?


.

WwI is when stuf started hapening and moving in the right direction.

Why would decixe not no? I realy dont understand this mentalety.

[Tarannosaurus]

WwI is when stuf started hapening and moving in the right direction.

Why would decixe not no? I realy dont understand this mentalety.

I didn't say me personally but some Irish people don't care about it.

In 1922 Ireland only became a dominion of the British commonwealth. Britain still exercised some degree of control over Irish affairs so we weren't really independent. Even after the replacing of the 1922 constitution with the 1937 constitution the British monarch still had control over Irish affairs - though it was especially limited - and so we remained a member of the British commonwealth until the Republic of Ireland Act in 1949 and the end of External Association - and then we were truly independent. Though I won't say that you're wrong in your belief that we effectively ran as an independent nation from 1922 onwards.

On to the actual topic: If the government wants students to learn a language then they should be providing some form of incentive to do so. There is currently no incentive that I can identify to learn Irish and that's a huge problem.

Ah I see jc history doesn't tell the whole story. No incentive whatsoever. I personally hate the way it's taught especially when you know that you won't use it after you finish school.

[Gigablue]

I disagree. Some languages are no longer useful in modern society. While some people may want to preserve cultural heritage, I think in this case it is a mistake. Culture changes, language changes. If you try to fight it, you only hurt yourself.

As globalization occurs, a few languages are becoming more important, while most are losing their importance. If you don't speak one of the more spoken languages, it is more difficult to find a job. If a whole region speak a language that isn't spoken elsewhere in the world, they will likely be cut off from economic trade.

By trying to preserve a dying language, you disadvantage the next generation.

[Tarannosaurus]

I dont remember from no history book that your people were so nice to the Irish when wisiting the island.

True but some Irish clans raided Roman Britain in the 4th and 5th centurys.
And I believe people from Ulster invaded northwest Scotland around the 5th centuary, establishing the kingdom of Dal Riata. No country has been perfect throughout history.

I disagree. Some languages are no longer useful in modern society. While some people may want to preserve cultural heritage, I think in this case it is a mistake. Culture changes, language changes. If you try to fight it, you only hurt yourself.

As globalization occurs, a few languages are becoming more important, while most are losing their importance. If you don't speak one of the more spoken languages, it is more difficult to find a job. If a whole region speak a language that isn't spoken elsewhere in the world, they will likely be cut off from economic trade.

By trying to preserve a dying language, you disadvantage the next generation.

I agree with that somewhat. I believe in preserving them for historians in a computer database or something so that people who are interested can learn about their culture and history but the language shouldn't be forced on the people.

[tovaris]

I disagree. Some languages are no longer useful in modern society. While some people may want to preserve cultural heritage, I think in this case it is a mistake. Culture changes, language changes. If you try to fight it, you only hurt yourself.

As globalization occurs, a few languages are becoming more important, while most are losing their importance. If you don't speak one of the more spoken languages, it is more difficult to find a job. If a whole region speak a language that isn't spoken elsewhere in the world, they will likely be cut off from economic trade.

By trying to preserve a dying language, you disadvantage the next generation.

You know people can speak more than one language... Some sort of imaginary reasonnshould not be annexcuse to forget your mother toung.
Look at japan they all speak japanies and are an great economic power, also korea, etc etc...
Evwm my own country with 2,5 milion inhabatents if far from being cut of for the people speaking their own language. Internaional buisnis is whilest conpletly seperate, in such buisnis deals usualy the stronger partners, or the ones who ordered something language is spoken.
So what are you sugesting that we all abandon our languages and learn esperanto instead?

Who said anything about dying languages? Is catalonian diing, is bask diing, etc...?

[Gigablue]

You know people can speak more than one language... Some sort of imaginary reasonnshould not be annexcuse to forget your mother toung.
Look at japan they all speak japanies and are an great economic power, also korea, etc etc...
Evwm my own country with 2,5 milion inhabatents if far from being cut of for the people speaking their own language. Internaional buisnis is whilest conpletly seperate, in such buisnis deals usualy the stronger partners, or the ones who ordered something language is spoken.
So what are you sugesting that we all abandon our languages and learn esperanto instead?

Who said anything about dying languages? Is catalonian diing, is bask diing, etc...?

People can speak many languages, but there is only so much time available to learn them. Wouldn't it be better to learn the useful ones.

I don't see your point with Japanese and Korean. Both of hem are fairly widely spoken and important languages.

What is there to gain by learning a language spoken by only a handful of people. Just because your ancestors spoke it doesn't mean you have to. I simply see it as a waste of valuable time.

Also, I think everyone should learn a universal language. It would make communication so much easier. I don't think it should be Esperanto, since Esperanto is too hard to learn for people who don't already speak Indo-European
languages, but I think someone should invent a better universal language and we should all learn that.

[tovaris]

People can speak many languages, but there is only so much time available to learn them. Wouldn't it be better to learn the useful ones.

t

Waist of time? That time "misused" to learn your mother toung is called upbringing. A biproduct of raising a chold is that the child learns the language that is hardly a wase of time.


I don't see your point with Japanese and Korean. Both of hem are fairly widely spoken and important languages.


These two languages are only spoken by the two nations, and are not widespread round the globe or considered "world languages. By your logic you would just have them (the languages) killed!



What is there to gain by learning a language spoken by only a handful of people. Just because your ancestors spoke it doesn't mean you have to. I simply see it as a waste of valuable time.



Of course there is. You can comunicate with the, the people who make up your enviorment!! How else will you go to the store to buy a loaf of bread, how else arenyou going to comunjcate with your parents.....? You cannot do anything if you dont learn the language of your enviorment as a child.
You consider the act of raising a child a wase of time?!?!!! Throw it in the dumpster than! Puj



Also, I think everyone should learn a universal language. It would make communication so much easier. I don't think it should be Esperanto, since Esperanto is too hard to learn for people who don't already speak Indo-European
languages, but I think someone should invent a better universal language and we should all learn that.

Learning an universal language should not come at the price of sacrefising your mother tonge.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198883

[Gigablue]

Waist of time? That time "misused" to learn your mother toung is called upbringing. A biproduct of raising a chold is that the child learns the language that is hardly a wase of time.


These two languages are only spoken by the two nations, and are not widespread round the globe or considered "world languages. By your logic you would just have them (the languages) killed!



Of course there is. You can comunicate with the, the people who make up your enviorment!! How else will you go to the store to buy a loaf of bread, how else arenyou going to comunjcate with your parents.....? You cannot do anything if you dont learn the language of your enviorment as a child.
You consider the act of raising a child a wase of time?!?!!! Throw it in the dumpster than! Puj



Learning an universal language should not come at the price of sacrefising your mother tonge.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198883

My main point is that people should learn the languages most useful to them in the future. Obviously people will end up learning the language(s) that they hear most. What I mean to say is that there is no point in preserving a language beyond its usefulness, simply for historic or cultural reasons. Languages change, and if a language becomes less useful, to try to preserve it is a waste of time.

Also, the whole point of a universal language is that it would replace all other languages. Initially, people would learn it as a second language, but given a few generations, it would spread and become the first language, while the other languages would die out.

[tovaris]

My main point is that people should learn the languages most useful to them in the future. Obviously people will end up learning the language(s) that they hear most. What I mean to say is that there is no point in preserving a language beyond its usefulness, simply for historic or cultural reasons. Languages change, and if a language becomes less useful, to try to preserve it is a waste of time.
ad and become the first language, while the other languages would die out.

When a nation loses its language it loses a large part of their identetie. You have cases of almost extinct languages, that only have say one speaker, and those nations are also extinct, noone defines themselves as a membor of those nations.
Noone is talking about artefitialy preserving say latim, but about people speaking their own langusage!

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198883


Also, the whole point of a universal language is that it would replace all other languages. Initially, people would learn it as a second language, but given a few generations, it would spread and become the first language, while the other languages would die out.


A universal language should newer be aloved to replace one nations own language, why would you speak to your children in some foreighn language insted of your own?!?!
It would newer become the first language because people will not speak foreighn language with their kids (unles there is something wrong with those people)

for descosion on second languages and foreighn language learning go to:
http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198883

[Gigablue]

When a nation loses its language it loses a large part of their identity. You have cases of almost extinct languages, that only have say one speaker, and those nations are also extinct, no one defines themselves as a membor of those nations.
No one is talking about artificially preserving say Latin, but about people speaking their own language!

Culture changes. People lose old identities and form new ones. Culture isn't some static thing to be preserved. It is dynamic and ever changing. I don't see the problem with letting culture follow it's natural course. If a particular identity disappears, why is that such a bad thing. We should let language and culture evolve on its own. To try to go against it seems pointless.

A universal language should never be allowed to replace one nations own language, why would you speak to your children in some foreign language insted of your own?!?!
It would never become the first language because people will not speak foreign language with their kids (unless there is something wrong with those people)

There is a huge precedent for this happening. While it hasn't happened with a universal language, it happens all the time with minority languages. When there is a region with a minority language, and a more spoken language moves in, the minority language disappears, as the children begin to speak the more common language. The main reason for this is that it doesn't really matter what language parents speak to their children. It matters what children speak with one another. If children learn a language in school, and there are other speakers of that language around, they will be more likely to speak it amongst themselves, and it will become their native language.

[tovaris]

Culture changes. People lose old identities and form new ones. Culture isn't some static thing to be preserved. It is dynamic and ever changing. I don't see the problem with letting culture follow it's natural course. If a particular identity disappears, why is that such a bad thing. We should let language and culture evolve on its own. To try to go against it seems pointless.


Yes we should alowe language to evolve but we shoukd not replace it with a nother!!! No one is going againced colturalbevolution by speaking the language the colture is based upon, the natural course of coltural evolution is to evolve, not to get squezed out by some foreighn opresor.
I newer spoke of forcefuly stoppink vocal and gramatical evolution, which are actuky kee to letting a language and its colture survive.



There is a huge precedent for this happening. While it hasn't happened with a universal language, it happens all the time with minority languages. When there is a region with a minority language, and a more spoken language moves in, the minority language disappears, as the children begin to speak the more common language. The main reason for this is that it doesn't really matter what language parents speak to their children. It matters what children speak with one another. If children learn a language in school, and there are other speakers of that language around, they will be more likely to speak it amongst themselves, and it will become their native language.

Whel yes and when the minorety language disaperes so does the minorety. This is the case in Austria Kärnten where the minorety is opressed and losing their language, with that the minorety is lost as whel.
We could learn from the jewish people who lived in diaspora for 2000 years and still kept their language alive and whel, not only that it evolved, and also the gipsies they live all acros europe in hostile enviorments and still keep their language which they use to comunicate with echother, than we have the german turks living in germany for generations and still peak their language, the argentinian slovenians (who i usualy dont like too much) still speak perfect slovenian after being out of their homeland (that their ansesters betraied) and their children stil speak slovenian, and also write award wining books in the language.
So you see your dominante language theory doesnt reayy hold wather, since people will alwais speak their mother toung, is only they are raised with the proper respect towards it.

[Something Creative]

I love Macedonian and I would never want it to die out or anything like that. Languages shouldn't be allowed to die off in this day and age because of their historical and cultural significance to a nation or people. And seeing as how so many countries are actually spending money to make sure a certain minority language doesn't die out makes me think it's kind of an important issue.

To be honest though, I speak English a lot more than I speak Macedonian. My two best friends can speak English fluently, I read books in English, and my English vocabulary is definitely richer than my Macedonian one. But like I said, I love Macedonian too. It's my history and my culture. It's part of who I am.

[Daracon]

Do you believe people should learn the language of their ancestors even if they live in a different country? Just curious on your input.

[Stronk Serb]

Do you believe people should learn the language of their ancestors even if they live in a different country? Just curious on your input.


Culture and national identity go with the language. Even if my children are going to be raised abroad, their first spoken word will be in Serbian.

[tovaris]

Do you believe people should learn the language of their ancestors even if they live in a different country? Just curious on your input.

Yes in my opinion everione should speak the language of their ansesters no mather where they live, and if one has parents of diferent nationaleties they should be taught both languages.

[Gigablue]

Yes in my opinion everione should speak the language of their ansesters no mather where they live, and if one has parents of diferent nationaleties they should be taught both languages.

I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. I have no interest in the language of my ancestors, nor do I care about their culture. In fact, I really couldn't care less about my ancestors. They're dead, so I don't really think they mind that I don't speak their language.

I care about the present and the future. I want my children to learn the languages that will serve them best in the future. If those happen to be the languages of my heritage, so be it, but I won't waste time teaching them less useful languages.

[tovaris]

I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. I have no interest in the language of my ancestors, nor do I care about their culture. In fact, I really couldn't care less about my ancestors. They're dead, so I don't really think they mind that I don't speak their language.

I care about the present and the future. I want my children to learn the languages that will serve them best in the future. If those happen to be the languages of my heritage, so be it, but I won't waste time teaching them less useful languages.

You havent replied to me repliing to one of your posts.

Its not wasting time its just talking, you are going to talk to your kids arent you. Its not like you are going to sit them down like innschool and teach them some lost language of the inka...

Culture changes. People lose old identities and form new ones. Culture isn't some static thing to be preserved. It is dynamic and ever changing. I don't see the problem with letting culture follow it's natural course. If a particular identity disappears, why is that such a bad thing. We should let language and culture evolve on its own. To try to go against it seems pointless.


Yes we should alowe language to evolve but we shoukd not replace it with a nother!!! No one is going againced colturalbevolution by speaking the language the colture is based upon, the natural course of coltural evolution is to evolve, not to get squezed out by some foreighn opresor.
I newer spoke of forcefuly stoppink vocal and gramatical evolution, which are actuky kee to letting a language and its colture survive.



There is a huge precedent for this happening. While it hasn't happened with a universal language, it happens all the time with minority languages. When there is a region with a minority language, and a more spoken language moves in, the minority language disappears, as the children begin to speak the more common language. The main reason for this is that it doesn't really matter what language parents speak to their children. It matters what children speak with one another. If children learn a language in school, and there are other speakers of that language around, they will be more likely to speak it amongst themselves, and it will become their native language.

Whel yes and when the minorety language disaperes so does the minorety. This is the case in Austria Kärnten where the minorety is opressed and losing their language, with that the minorety is lost as whel.
We could learn from the jewish people who lived in diaspora for 2000 years and still kept their language alive and whel, not only that it evolved, and also the gipsies they live all acros europe in hostile enviorments and still keep their language which they use to comunicate with echother, than we have the german turks living in germany for generations and still peak their language, the argentinian slovenians (who i usualy dont like too much) still speak perfect slovenian after being out of their homeland (that their ansesters betraied) and their children stil speak slovenian, and also write award wining books in the language.
So you see your dominante language theory doesnt reayy hold wather, since people will alwais speak their mother toung, is only they are raised with the proper respect towards it.

[Gigablue]

Its not wasting time its just talking, you are going to talk to your kids arent you. Its not like you are going to sit them down like innschool and teach them some lost language of the inka...

It takes more than just taking. If you speak a minority language and you want your children to speak it fluently, it requires significant effort. As soon as your children start going to school and make friends, they will speak the dominant language. You can speak your language at home, but the kids will learn the majority language more easily, and they will come to prefer it.

The simple fact is, children learn language more from their peers than their parents. That is why children develop an accent when they move to a different region. They emulate their peers, not their parents. Your effort to speak your native language with your kids will not result in fluent speakers.

Of you want your kids to speak the language as well as you, it requires more intensive effort, usually in the form of formal schooling or moving into a community in which the language is more spoken.

Yes we should alowe language to evolve but we shoukd not replace it with a nother!!! No one is going againced colturalbevolution by speaking the language the colture is based upon, the natural course of coltural evolution is to evolve, not to get squezed out by some foreighn opresor.
I newer spoke of forcefuly stoppink vocal and gramatical evolution, which are actuky kee to letting a language and its colture survive.

Ideally, we would preserve all language and all culture, but this simply isn't possible. With increasing globalization, minority languages and cultures will disappear. This is inevitable. You have two options: try to fight it, resulting in isolation from the global culture, or accept it. Neither are ideal. It's sad, but cultures will disappear. The only way we could stop this is by stopping globalization, and that will never happen.

Whel yes and when the minorety language disaperes so does the minorety. This is the case in Austria Kärnten where the minorety is opressed and losing their language, with that the minorety is lost as whel.
We could learn from the jewish people who lived in diaspora for 2000 years and still kept their language alive and whel, not only that it evolved, and also the gipsies they live all acros europe in hostile enviorments and still keep their language which they use to comunicate with echother, than we have the german turks living in germany for generations and still peak their language, the argentinian slovenians (who i usualy dont like too much) still speak perfect slovenian after being out of their homeland (that their ansesters betraied) and their children stil speak slovenian, and also write award wining books in the language.
So you see your dominante language theory doesnt reayy hold wather, since people will alwais speak their mother toung, is only they are raised with the proper respect towards it.

People will speak the language they are raised with. All the examples you cite are examples of insular communities. In these cases, everyone in the community spoke the minority language. They were a minority in the country, but within the community, they were the majority. As a result, the language survived.

This isn't the case anymore. Insular communities are becoming more and more scarce, as majority languages become more pervasive. Pretty soon, it won't be possible for these communities to maintain their languages.

My question is, why does it matter if people speak the language of their ancestors? You take it as self evident that people should, but I don't see the reasoning. The culture of one’s ancestors isn't necessarily superior. As I said before, I don't care about the culture of my ancestors. I want to speak the languages most beneficial to me, not the languages people before me happened to speak.

[tovaris]

It takes more than just taking. If you speak a minority language and you want your children to speak it fluently, it requires significant effort. As soon as your children start going to school and make friends, they will speak the dominant language. You can speak your language at home, but the kids will learn the majority language more easily, and they will come to prefer it.

The simple fact is, children learn language more from their peers than their parents. That is why children develop an accent when they move to a different region. They emulate their peers, not their parents. Your effort to speak your native language with your kids will not result in fluent speakers.

Of you want your kids to speak the language as well as you, it requires more intensive effort, usually in the form of formal schooling or moving into a community in which the language is more spoken.


I stil dont get how we got from descusing national languages to descusing those of minoreties. But i will non the les try to rid you of your dileme and the flaws in your logic.

It realy doesnt. Structured schooling in the minorety language does help. That is why it is every native minoreties right to demand such schooling. And teaching your kind to read and write is not a waste of time its basic education.
A language can survive in minorety enviorment tor hundreds of years. The wery profe i have at my countris dorstep with our minoreties in Hungary Austrya and Italy still speaking their wery own dialects of the Slovenian language.
And regarding the majorety language problem... what is wrong with kids being bilingual. You have kids groving up in famelies where the parents are of diferent nationaleties and they grow up to speak both languages...

Stil dont get how you got to minoreties...



Ideally, we would preserve all language and all culture, but this simply isn't possible. With increasing globalization, minority languages and cultures will disappear. This is inevitable. You have two options: try to fight it, resulting in isolation from the global culture, or accept it. Neither are ideal. It's sad, but cultures will disappear. The only way we could stop this is by stopping globalization, and that will never happen.



If the nation carier of the colture wont be to ignorant it will survive and evolve and so will the language.
Tell me than how can a nation of 2.5 milion still speak their own language in countles dialects and preserve its evolving colture... This is not fighting globalization its as simple as speaking, speaking your OWN language. And such a deed does not result in isolation from global colture. I realy dont see where you derived that statement from...



People will speak the language they are raised with. All the examples you cite are examples of insular communities. In these cases, everyone in the community spoke the minority language. They were a minority in the country, but within the community, they were the majority. As a result, the language survived.

This isn't the case anymore. Insular communities are becoming more and more scarce, as majority languages become more pervasive. Pretty soon, it won't be possible for these communities to maintain their languages.



If that is the case tell me than how can the resolt of a german-slovenian cupple living in canada be a chold that can speak slovenian, german, english, french...?
The language travels by" blod" if the people cariing it want so, it has not as much to do as for the convinience of the language to use for grosery shopping but about something as simple as parents talking to their kids.

Stil dont get why did you draw me to minorety language cases....


My question is, why does it matter if people speak the language of their ancestors? You take it as self evident that people should, but I don't see the reasoning. The culture of one’s ancestors isn't necessarily superior. As I said before, I don't care about the culture of my ancestors. I want to speak the languages most beneficial to me, not the languages people before me happened to speak.
Of course its self evidente... How else would you comunicate in a country where you dont speak a word of the language... your own language...
Are you saing some coltures are superior to others?!
Its not that the people before happend to speak it its that people around you stil speak it... I would like to see you abandon english in a englishbspeaking eviorment and start speaking mandaris because it "benefits" you better... I can see the reason for abandoning some language just so that people would speak some foreighn language as their first insted of their mother language to be thačeir first.

[Gigablue]

If the nation carier of the colture wont be to ignorant it will survive and evolve and so will the language.
Tell me than how can a nation of 2.5 milion still speak their own language in countles dialects and preserve its evolving colture... This is not fighting globalization its as simple as speaking, speaking your OWN language. And such a deed does not result in isolation from global colture. I realy dont see where you derived that statement from...

I'll address the minority language issue first. It may not seem that a language with 2.5 million speakers is a minority, but globally, it is. Within Slovenia, Slovenian is still the dominant language, but globally, it is a huge minority. It isn't anywhere near the level of more widespread languages like Mandarin, Spanish, English, Hindi or Arabic, to name the top five. Given time, it will fade.

I realize I wasn't clear enough, though. My point was mainly about minority languages within a larger country. For example, I see little benefit in speaking Slovenian here in Canada. I didn't mean to imply that Slovenian isn't useful in Slovenia, since it obviously is. It makes sense to learn the language(s) that is widely spoken in the region in which you live.

If that is the case tell me than how can the resolt of a german-slovenian cupple living in canada be a chold that can speak slovenian, german, english, french...?
The language travels by" blod" if the people cariing it want so, it has not as much to do as for the convinience of the language to use for grosery shopping but about something as simple as parents talking to their kids.

I disagree with this. To use an anecdote from my personal experience. Many of my friends are second generation Canadians. Their parents don't speak English as a first language, and many of their parents don't speak English very well. Yet my friends speak English and French well, and are often not fluent in their parents' first language. It is hard to teach children a language that isn't widely spoken.

Of course its self evidente... How else would you comunicate in a country where you dont speak a word of the language... your own language...

Of course. But then this isn't about native language at all. It makes sense to learn the language that is most spoken in your region. It shouldn't be about "Your language" it should simply be about learning the language of a given place.

In other words, it comes back to practicality. People should learn the language spoken in the region in which they live. I didn't mean to imply that this was always English or another very common language. It could be english, but it could also be something like Slovenian. It all depends on where you live.

Are you saing some coltures are superior to others?!

No, simply that some cultures will fade and others will take their place. This is inevitable.

Its not that the people before happend to speak it its that people around you stil speak it... I would like to see you abandon english in a englishbspeaking eviorment and start speaking mandaris because it "benefits" you better... I can see the reason for abandoning some language just so that people would speak some foreighn language as their first insted of their mother language to be thačeir first.

This is what I was saying all along, I think I just phrased it badly. People should learn the language most spoken in their immediate language. The only thing is, the language most spoken isn't always the language spoken by your ancestors.

I think we actually agree on most points. People should learn the language spoken by those around them.

[tovaris]

I'll address the minority language issue first. It may not seem that a language with 2.5 million speakers is a minority, but globally, it is. Within Slovenia, Slovenian is still the dominant language, but globally, it is a huge minority. It isn't anywhere near the level of more widespread languages like Mandarin, Spanish, English, Hindi or Arabic, to name the top five. Given time, it will fade.

I realize I wasn't clear enough, though. My point was mainly about minority languages within a larger country. For example, I see little benefit in speaking Slovenian here in Canada. I didn't mean to imply that Slovenian isn't useful in Slovenia, since it obviously is. It makes sense to learn the language(s) that is widely spoken in the region in which you live.


I stil dont get where you are getting all your minorety subject from. I never sait it was a minorety language in said country, but in neighboring countries.

Actuly etimologecly speaking large languages are more likely to change quickly and adapt structures and words from foreighn ones. A perfect example of that is Russia whos entire maritime vocabulary is copied from dutch. And englis dont get me started how quickly it adapts.

I newer talked bout the transglobe spreading of a language that is of no inportance for this descusion.

No it makes sense to talk to your parents in their language which is your own language, not to abandon ones own language for the sake of some imagined convinionc.






I disagree with this. To use an anecdote from my personal experience. Many of my friends are second generation Canadians. Their parents don't speak English as a first language, and many of their parents don't speak English very well. Yet my friends speak English and French well, and are often not fluent in their parents' first language. It is hard to teach children a language that isn't widely spoken.



Now that is just plane wrong, wrong on their parents aarts to not teach them the language properly.
For example the Serbian diaspora in canada is so strong that serbian national television started brodcasting their signal over satelite to canada.


Of course. But then this isn't about native language at all. It makes sense to learn the language that is most spoken in your region. It shouldn't be about "Your language" it should simply be about learning the language of a given place.

In other words, it comes back to practicality. People should learn the language spoken in the region in which they live. I didn't mean to imply that this was always English or another very common language. It could be english, but it could also be something like Slovenian. It all depends on where you live.
.

Yes it should be about your language! Your language should be first, everithing else comes in second... The language of the region if not ones own should not be ones first.
Yes people should learn the sorounding language, second to their own.
For example the italian minorety comunety in say Piran they as children first learn Italian and than as second they learn the language of the enviorment.



No, simply that some cultures will fade and others will take their place. This is inevitable.


Coltures evolve and change, they morfe...etc... They even adopt foreighn elements, but are almost newer replaced, and should not be replaced.



This is what I was saying all along, I think I just phrased it badly. People should learn the language most spoken in their immediate language. The only thing is, the language most spoken isn't always the language spoken by your ancestors.

I think we actually agree on most points. People should learn the language spoken by those around them.

Yes they should learn the language of the enviorment but only second to their own language (if they differ) a language they are bound to by lod and by speaking it also have a partial ownership to it, and a responsabilety to keap it alive! (As long as the nation lives so should the language, to kill a language you would need to extermanate the nation, basicly.......... ower my dead body!)

[tovaris]

Bump

[Stronk Serb]

By destroying a language you destroy a culture and asimilate a nation. The Austrians tried that with Serbs who lived in Vojna Krajina, fortunately they failed.

[Jonathan1998]

This is happening with France and Switzerland

Occitan and Corsican which are languages spoken in France are being pushed out and less people are starting to speak them, because the French government wants French to be pretty much dominant throughout the country and territories and it's sad because Occitan is quite a big part of Southern France because not only is it where a lot of Occitan used to be spoke all the time, it's dying out and it's killing off a culture that has been in Southern France for a long time. Same with Corsican on the island of Corsica, less people are starting to use it, the French language is pushing the Corsican language out of its own island, it's being less used it's not manditory in Corsica's schools anymore and it's just a massive loss in culture and it's just so sad that these languages are dying.

Same in Switzerland with the Romansh language, it's been in Switzerland probably longer than German, French but not sure about Italian and well Romansh, despite being an official language, is also being pushed out nearly and just now staying in it's own area but German being the most common language there is pushing Romansh out of it's area and it's not even manditory in schools either and some languages like Romansh, Occitan and Corsican etc are the closest languages we can get to figuring out Classical Latin, other dialects of Latin and because of this we're not able to find out old documents and artefacts that may have these languages and need translating and could be of use.

The dying out of native languages to countries and regions is truly saddening, it's leaving a massive gaping hole in a place's culture and just loses it's value and becomes just another simple place with barely anything interesting to offer

[SecretlyKnown]

I know the Catholic Faith believes that the mother tongue of the Earth is Latin.

[tovaris]

I know the Catholic Faith believes that the mother tongue of the Earth is Latin.

And what do you beljeve?

[hockeyfan]

If I talk to someone in English or French; the main difference is the pride we have and display.

[Zenos]

Originally Posted by Tarannosaurus View Post
Ah I see Irish here is compulsory unless you have an exemption, which my mother told me I was eligible for after the Junior Cert exams Exemptions are hard to get though and I since I did the exam and have been learning it for 12 years I can't get one now. For the leaving cert we can do it at foundation/ordinary/higher level with 40% of the final mark for an oral exam. Foundation isn't counted for any colleges though. Irish is heading down that track too, hardly anyone remembers it after school. Apparently 94,000 people speak Irish daily but even when I went to a gaeltacht the only time I heard Irish was when it was mixed with English.
(/quote)

Irish should be made the official language of Ireland

[tovaris]

If I talk to someone in English or French; the main difference is the pride we have and display.

Sory what did you mean by your postm plear elaborate...

[AlexOnToast]

It would be great if more people spoke Irish here, but they really just arent pushed.

[Vlerchan]

Irish should be made the official language of Ireland

Irish is actually classified as the 'first official language' in the Irish constitution. That doesn't make it any less useless however.