Athiests Is it fair?

[Sanctum]

Hi.
Most of us know people like Saddam, Hitler, Bin Ladin and so on who were obviously murderers.they have commited many crimes but were killed for once.i don't think they have got the proper punishment for their crimes.
So i think there should be somewhere else after their death that they can be punished there right? If not then i think it's not fair at all.
For example i grab a gun and kill whoever i hate and then kill myself. Now who has got to be punished when the murderer is gone?
Or on the other hand i kill a good person who has helped many people.now that he is dead who is gonna give him his reward?

[Walter Powers]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)

[Sugaree]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)

Yes, instead of putting someone through the courts of justice, like it SHOULD be, let's do it the RIGHT way and let an invisible deity do the judging.


Do you see the flaw in this logic, Walter?

[AgentHomo]

Yes, instead of putting someone through the courts of justice, like it SHOULD be, let's do it the RIGHT way and let an invisible deity do the judging.


Do you see the flaw in this logic, Walter?

This. Completely agree.

[Stronk Serb]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)


Heard of something called repentance? This is about correction not punishment.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

The problem with Chritianity (as well as some other religions I'm sure) is that you aren't judged for what you do. In other words, according to christianity, a lot of good people are going to hell and a lot of bad people are still going to heaven. I think we can all agree the crusades were terrible, but because they believed in Jesus...

Something else to consider, does anyone really deserve an /eternity/ of pain and suffering? I mean hitler was an awful person, so maybe 50 years of continuous pain and suffering would be sufficient, but an eternity?

[AlexOnToast]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)

Thats an unfair assumption. I'm a "liberal", and of course I believe Hitler should have been killed, Tortured even (tho perhaps thats a wee bit drastic),,,, and most people would probably agree with me. Stop tarring all non-conservatives with the same brush. It makes youre argument look invalid and immature

[conniption]

Who said life was fair? It's a hard thing to swallow, but the majority of criminals are never caught, much less put through sentencing. You're delusional and very naive if you think the world is a place where everyone eventually gets their own.

[Cpt_Cutter]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)

I could use the same argument about republicans, except reversed. No need to bring politics into a likely religious flame-war that the OP wanted to start, we have enough political flame-wars during every election IRL.

[Miserabilia]

Yes, they should "deserve" punishment. But they don't. Because they're dead.
The end.
You can imagine this whole place that punishes them for eternity after death, but they are death and their body thus their nervous system doesn't work -> they can no longer feel pain.
Life is unfair, like Mirman said.

[darthearth]

I could use the same argument about republicans, except reversed. No need to bring politics into a likely religious flame-war that the OP wanted to start, we have enough political flame-wars during every election IRL.

Not necessarily a religious flame war. I'm staying out of it because the participative audience for the thread is explicitly atheist. I would find the viewpoint amusing if it wasn't so dreadful. Glad I'm not an atheist, what a dark world without the Light of God.

[Bleid]

Yes, instead of putting someone through the courts of justice, like it SHOULD be, let's do it the RIGHT way and let an invisible deity do the judging.


Do you see the flaw in this logic, Walter?

I see no flaw in that logic, personally. Could you point it out clearly for me, instead of using rhetoric?

[conniption]

Not necessarily a religious flame war. I'm staying out of it because the participative audience for the thread is explicitly atheist. I would find the viewpoint amusing if it wasn't so dreadful. Glad I'm not an atheist, what a dark world without the Light of God.

Oh, yes, it's simply dreadful being atheist. Every morning, I wake up and think, "Where am I without The Lord?" Then, I get up from my bed in my spacey three bedroom apartment, eat breakfast with my loving family, and go to school to get a great education surrounded by my awesome friends. Later, my friend, who was diagnosed with cancer, calls me up and says, "Miriam, my doctor said I'm in remission. I'll be able to go back to school in a month and a half, isn't that great?" And I smile because she's the sweetest person I've ever met, she deserves to live. I realize, from her situation, that the life I'm living now is the only one I'll ever get, and I'm fine with that.

In the Middle East and parts of Africa, like South Sudan, people are killing each other for their God. 'Muslims against Christians', 'Muslims persecute Christians in the Middle East', 'Christians rally against same-sex marriage legislation', this is all I ever hear! I'm fucking sick of it. You know, I always hear people ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?" Why the hell does it matter what he would do? Why can't we do things for our fellow man, not to get through the pearly gates of heaven, but because they're the right thing to do?

This world you live in is both heaven and hell. I don't need the assurance of a eternal paradise to be happy. All I need is people to take off the blindfolds they choose to live with and see and understand that religion is too rigid, too black and white, for the colorful world we live in.

[Sugaree]

I see no flaw in that logic, personally. Could you point it out clearly for me, instead of using rhetoric?

So you would be perfectly content in just letting someone who has committed a crime, say robbery, just to keep things simple, walk off without having charges pressed, no trial by jury, no jail time...nothing? All because it makes more sense, according to you, for a deity that we can't see or hear to do the judging. No, I don't think it works that way.

You see, I kind of like a system where we don't let criminals get away with committing a crime. If you do do something, you damn well better be prepared for the consequences if you get caught. Look, I don't care if there really IS a God or not, and if you believe in him, that's all well and good; but to sit there and tell me that we have no place on this earth to put wrongdoers behind bars is just nuts. In paraphrase, that's what you're condoning. "Just leave it to God! He knows best!" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let rapists, murderers, and plunderers get away with their crimes. They deserve their day in court, in front of a jury of their peers, and, should they be found guilty, their sentence in jail.

Not necessarily a religious flame war. I'm staying out of it because the participative audience for the thread is explicitly atheist. I would find the viewpoint amusing if it wasn't so dreadful. Glad I'm not an atheist, what a dark world without the Light of God.

Granted, I was in a pretty dark pit in my life when I proclaimed atheism, but I don't see your point here. Many of my atheist friends are some of the happiest people I know, and while I still battle with depression, I use my new Buddhist faith to overcome that. So would you say I'm still in such a dreadful mindset because I have no apparent "Light of God" in my life? I have the Light of Buddha in my life, and that's simply enough for me. Some people happen to have depression and happen to be atheists; does that necessarily correlate both of them? No. So stop the assumptions now.

[MechaSniper]

But is life fair?

[conniption]

But is life fair?

I think we've all established that it's not.

[Bleid]

So you would be perfectly content in just letting someone who has committed a crime, say robbery, just to keep things simple, walk off without having charges pressed, no trial by jury, no jail time...nothing? All because it makes more sense, according to you, for a deity that we can't see or hear to do the judging. No, I don't think it works that way.

Someone asks you a question regarding the logic of your reasoning, and you conclude that this person must be of the opinion that there is a deity. How interesting.

So far, the best we have with all of what you just said as far as a logical explanation is, "No, I don't think it works that way." I've seen no mention as to precisely why it doesn't. Is this the best I can expect?

You see, I kind of like a system where we don't let criminals get away with committing a crime. If you do do something, you damn well better be prepared for the consequences if you get caught. Look, I don't care if there really IS a God or not, and if you believe in him, that's all well and good; but to sit there and tell me that we have no place on this earth to put wrongdoers behind bars is just nuts. In paraphrase, that's what you're condoning. "Just leave it to God! He knows best!" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let rapists, murderers, and plunderers get away with their crimes. They deserve their day in court, in front of a jury of their peers, and, should they be found guilty, their sentence in jail.

If it were to be a deity-created world, you are certain that this would not be the case if we, ourselves, did not do something?

You're presuming a non-deity world in this. Certainly, if there actually was, they wouldn't be getting away with their crimes, and so your entire line of reasoning here is based in the assumption that there isn't a God, which itself is poorly-reasoned.

And again, please point me to where I said we have no place on Earth to put wrongdoers behind bars in this:

I see no flaw in that logic, personally. Could you point it out clearly for me, instead of using rhetoric?

[isaiah1038]

Yeah, but considering all Atheists go to hell after death... Yea..... I think I might just pass on that one. Lol

[Cpt_Cutter]

Not necessarily a religious flame war. I'm staying out of it because the participative audience for the thread is explicitly atheist. I would find the viewpoint amusing if it wasn't so dreadful. Glad I'm not an atheist, what a dark world without the Light of God.

I try to not partake in flame-wars just on principle, but I would say more "Realistic" world, not dark. Not trying to be offensive and if you find that offensive, sorry. I don't hate on theists, a few of my close friends are, I respect their opinions and usually ask that they respect mine.

[Sanctum]

Oh, yes, it's simply dreadful being atheist. Every morning, I wake up and think, "Where am I without The Lord?" Then, I get up from my bed in my spacey three bedroom apartment, eat breakfast with my loving family, and go to school to get a great education surrounded by my awesome friends. Later, my friend, who was diagnosed with cancer, calls me up and says, "Miriam, my doctor said I'm in remission. I'll be able to go back to school in a month and a half, isn't that great?" And I smile because she's the sweetest person I've ever met, she deserves to live. I realize, from her situation, that the life I'm living now is the only one I'll ever get, and I'm fine with that.

In the Middle East and parts of Africa, like South Sudan, people are killing each other for their God. 'Muslims against Christians', 'Muslims persecute Christians in the Middle East', 'Christians rally against same-sex marriage legislation', this is all I ever hear! I'm fucking sick of it. You know, I always hear people ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?" Why the hell does it matter what he would do? Why can't we do things for our fellow man, not to get through the pearly gates of heaven, but because they're the right thing to do?

This world you live in is both heaven and hell. I don't need the assurance of a eternal paradise to be happy. All I need is people to take off the blindfolds they choose to live with and see and understand that religion is too rigid, too black and white, for the colorful world we live in.
First, Religion is not all about kiling or stuff.and all you have heard about religion is some political shit that you hear from your TV.
I would recommend you to do some reaserches about that.
And about your only life i have to say that yes,you don't need any heaven or hell because you can not even think about death.and when you do you just try to evade from it and fool yourself with something.
We are human beings look at ourselves.isn't it great?we have technology which animals dont.we can talk which animals cant.we have authorithy which animals dont.
If there is no goal for our creation then what is the difference between you and animals(sorry!)do you consider your self as an animal but a little bit improved then?
Religion can not be proven by science and people like you just can't believe what they dont see.

[Vlerchan]

I see no flaw in that logic, personally. Could you point it out clearly for me, instead of using rhetoric?I'm going to take a stab here and say: there is absolutely no solid evidence that I am aware of supporting the existence of an afterlife - a Hell in this case - and due to that I am not comfortable with leaving justice to god as opposed to other human beings - his flaw, in case I wasn't specific enough here, is being held in the belief of both a god and afterlife existing. Now, if you could enlighten me with evidence of the contrary - evidence pertaining Hell's existence - then that would be lovely. (I'll further make the point: a god having been responsible for the creation of the universe - let us roll with that assumption for now - does not necessarily infer that there is an afterlife as I am sure you are aware.)

[Willweston]

They deserved to spend time in jail to think about the crimes and die there rather than being killed and leaving his problems behind!

[Gigablue]

Hi.
Most of us know people like Saddam, Hitler, Bin Ladin and so on who were obviously murderers.they have commited many crimes but were killed for once.i don't think they have got the proper punishment for their crimes.
So i think there should be somewhere else after their death that they can be punished there right? If not then i think it's not fair at all.
For example i grab a gun and kill whoever i hate and then kill myself. Now who has got to be punished when the murderer is gone?
Or on the other hand i kill a good person who has helped many people.now that he is dead who is gonna give him his reward?

There are two major premises in your argument with which I disagree. Firstly, life isn't fair. It never has been and never will be. I think everyone can agree with this. It would be nice if life were fair, but it simply isn't.

The second is more contentious. I don't think killing or torturing people like Hitler or Bin Laden is fair. No matter what you do to Hitler, it won't bring back the people murdered in the holocaust. Punishing him may make people feel better, but it wouldn't be fixing anything. I think a world in which people are punished unnecessarily is less just than a world in which people just die, with no punishment or reward.

[Sanctum]

The second is more contentious. I don't think killing or torturing people like Hitler or Bin Laden is fair. No matter what you do to Hitler, it won't bring back the people murdered in the holocaust. Punishing him may make people feel better, but it wouldn't be fixing anything. I think a world in which people are punished unnecessarily is less just than a world in which people just die, with no punishment or reward.

I definitely disagree with that.there must be some punishments.if there is not then people would do whatever they want and would domaby crimes and say i have done it and nothing can be done.
People must be afraid of some thing in order not to do crime

[Sugaree]

Someone asks you a question regarding the logic of your reasoning, and you conclude that this person must be of the opinion that there is a deity. How interesting.

So far, the best we have with all of what you just said as far as a logical explanation is, "No, I don't think it works that way." I've seen no mention as to precisely why it doesn't. Is this the best I can expect?

If you want more technical detail in simplest form: Why would a criminal fear something they can't see or hear? What Walter said, and I quote, "they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath". Now, yes, I AM assuming that this is a non-deity created world, but for good reason: there's no real evidence on the contrary to make ME believe that there IS a deity that created the world. So, this brings me to my overall point, why would a criminal have fear over something (in this case, the apparent wrath of God) that they have no clue actually exists? However, if they know something tangible exists (such as law enforcement officers that actually arrest you if you're caught in the process of committing a crime or WILL arrest you if charges are pressed against you during the investigation process), then they might have a reason to be afraid. Of course, that doesn't stop many criminals from committing their acts, but we can talk about that in another thread.



If it were to be a deity-created world, you are certain that this would not be the case if we, ourselves, did not do something?

You're presuming a non-deity world in this. Certainly, if there actually was, they wouldn't be getting away with their crimes, and so your entire line of reasoning here is based in the assumption that there isn't a God, which itself is poorly-reasoned.

Perhaps it IS poorly-reasoned, and I do apologize for that. Now, if this WERE a deity created world, am I certain that we wouldn't prosecute criminals? I'm sure we would, because we have a basic concept of right and wrong. However, I see that the logic Walter presented as this: Well, it doesn't really matter what the criminal does or if we prosecute them or not, they all go to the same God in the end. My entire argument here is how we can know that for sure and why do people think that way? Surely these people must feel comfortable in the idea of simply not prosecuting people and must think the justice system we have is useless since, hey, God is apparently the ultimate judge of our lives. This is what I'm reading it as, so that's just MY interpretation. Until Walter comes along to clarify, or until someone else tries to, I don't think that will change.

And again, please point me to where I said we have no place on Earth to put wrongdoers behind bars in this:

I simply made the assumption that that was what you believed, so again, I do apologize for that. Again, I'm going off of what Walter responded with, not necessarily what you had said.

[conniption]

First, Religion is not all about kiling or stuff.and all you have heard about religion is some political shit that you hear from your TV.
I would recommend you to do some reaserches about that.
And about your only life i have to say that yes,you don't need any heaven or hell because you can not even think about death.and when you do you just try to evade from it and fool yourself with something.
We are human beings look at ourselves.isn't it great?we have technology which animals dont.we can talk which animals cant.we have authorithy which animals dont.
If there is no goal for our creation then what is the difference between you and animals(sorry!)do you consider your self as an animal but a little bit improved then?
Religion can not be proven by science and people like you just can't believe what they dont see.

I've done plenty of research. Ever heard of the Crusades? The Spanish Inquusition? The French Wars of Religion? Thirty Years' War? You try to act like religion is just some benign thing, but it's not. I'm not saying everyone that has a religion is bad, but you can't deny the fact that religion has some pretty negative effects.
I think you are the true fool. I'm not scared of death. I'm not scared of the wrath of God, because I know I'm a good person. I don't need God to guide me. I'm my own person and I'm fully capable of living a good and moral life without getting on my knees every night and praying. When I get straight As on my report card, who did that? I did it, by myself, God didn't come down and assure me I'd get good grades. I worked my butt off for those grades, but I guess I'd probably should have just prayed? I mean, God would have given me good grades just because I asked for them, right?
And don't get all high and mighty. You know what we are? We're just a couple of oversized monkeys that have been given too much brain power. We're still animals. We eat, we mate, and we die, just like animals. I'm an animal, you're an animal, whatever, big deal.

[Sanctum]

I've done plenty of research. Ever heard of the Crusades? The Spanish Inquusition? The French Wars of Religion? Thirty Years' War? You try to act like religion is just some benign thing, but it's not. I'm not saying everyone that has a religion is bad, but you can't deny the fact that religion has some pretty negative effects.
I think you are the true fool. I'm not scared of death. I'm not scared of the wrath of God, because I know I'm a good person. I don't need God to guide me. I'm my own person and I'm fully capable of living a good and moral life without getting on my knees every night and praying. When I get straight As on my report card, who did that? I did it, by myself, God didn't come down and assure me I'd get good grades. I worked my butt off for those grades, but I guess I'd probably should have just prayed? I mean, God would have given me good grades just because I asked for them, right?
And don't get all high and mighty. You know what we are? We're just a couple of oversized monkeys that have been given too much brain power. We're still animals. We eat, we mate, and we die, just like animals. I'm an animal, you're an animal, whatever, big deal.
It is not all about eating and dying which is all that animals can do.
We are way better in many ways than animals.
Speaking and thinking for example.we also improve the technology every day.
Now that we are the most intelligent i don't think it happened all of a sudden.
Yes natural selection has affected us. But natural selection itself. Where did it come from?
Now that i am the best specie in the world should i just ignore it?

[conniption]

It is not all about eating and dying which is all that animals can do.
We are way better in many ways than animals.
Speaking and thinking for example.we also improve the technology every day.
Now that we are the most intelligent i don't think it happened all of a sudden.
Yes natural selection has affected us. But natural selection itself. Where did it come from?

Get off it. People and animals alike all end up in the same situation. We all end up dead, reguardless of what our species has done. Anyway, we've strayed far from the original question.

Should criminals be punished? Yes.
Why? Because they pose a danger to society.
What if they die before they're sentenced? Oh, well. We'll get the next one.

[Sanctum]

Get off it. People and animals alike all end up in the same situation. We all end up dead, reguardless of what our species has done. Anyway, we've strayed far from the original question.

Should criminals be punished? Yes.
Why? Because they pose a danger to society.
What if they die before they're sentenced? Oh, well. We'll get the next one.

Ok then.
Now i will take a gun and kill who ever i like. then kill myself and i will probably wont be afraid of anything because no one will ever punish me.
Thank you very much.

[conniption]

Ok then.
Now i will take a gun and kill who ever i like. then kill myself and i will probably wont be afraid of anything because no one will ever punish me.
Thank you very much.

If it makes you feel any better, out of 218,000 prison inmates, only .07% are atheists and 17% are "none". So you know for sure that at least 17.07% are going to hell. The other 28.7% Protestants, 24% Catholics, and 5.5% Muslims, will be judged by God. Yay.

[Sanctum]

If it makes you feel any better, out of 218,000 prison inmates, only .07% are atheists and 17% are "none". So you know for sure that at least 17.07% are going to hell. The other 28.7% Protestants, 24% Catholics, and 5.5% Muslims, will be judged by God. Yay.

Well thats the point.
You can never say whether a person is really religious or not.or even believe in god or not.
My cousin for example is not a religious person at all but believes in god.
No, going to hell or heaven is not just by being religious or not.
It is just one side of the case.you are being judged by whatever you have done in this world.religion just shows you the way and makes it easier for you.
When a person has been born in a place that his surrounding are all athiest and no one has ever told him about religion then it is not his fault. He will be judged by his actions in this world.
Religion does not limit you.but shows you the ways which are better for you and most of them are scientifically prooven
No, you know nothing about religion.

[Miserabilia]

I definitely disagree with that.there must be some punishments.if there is not then people would do whatever they want and would domaby crimes and say i have done it and nothing can be done.
People must be afraid of some thing in order not to do crime

People are afraid of authority. Jailtime frightens people. You don't want to kill someone, because then you end up in jail forever.
You don't want to kill yourself to get away from punishment, because there is no life after death so then it's end of story anyway.

First, Religion is not all about kiling or stuff.and all you have heard about religion is some political shit that you hear from your TV.
I would recommend you to do some reaserches about that.
And about your only life i have to say that yes,you don't need any heaven or hell because you can not even think about death.and when you do you just try to evade from it and fool yourself with something.
We are human beings look at ourselves.isn't it great?we have technology which animals dont.we can talk which animals cant.we have authorithy which animals dont.
If there is no goal for our creation then what is the difference between you and animals(sorry!)do you consider your self as an animal but a little bit improved then?
Religion can not be proven by science and people like you just can't believe what they dont see.

you can not even think about death.and when you do you just try to evade from it and fool yourself with something.

Isn't that exactly what religion does? Worrying about what happens after death and making up places to go when you pass away? Fooling yourself into afterlife, isn't that exactly what religion describes? lol!

If there is no goal for our creation
What creation? Creation???

do you consider your self as an animal but a little bit improved then?
Yes.

Religion can not be proven by science and people like you just can't believe what they dont see.

If something is not there, I will not beleive it is there anyway.
If something can not be proven, I will not beleive it.
Hey see that sandwhich floating on your screen?
You don't?
Well it is there and it's watching you.
And if you don't beleive it's there you'll burn and have pain for eternity.

Would you beleive that sandwhich? Because that sandwhich is religion.







Ok then.
Now i will take a gun and kill who ever i like. then kill myself and i will probably wont be afraid of anything because no one will ever punish me.
Thank you very much.

Isn't not living like... already enough punishment for you?
Do you not care that if you kill yourself your life ends, finito, nothingness forever?
Does that not bother you? Because that seems like enough punishment to me.


It is not all about eating and dying which is all that animals can do.
We are way better in many ways than animals.
Speaking and thinking for example.we also improve the technology every day.
Now that we are the most intelligent i don't think it happened all of a sudden.
Yes natural selection has affected us. But natural selection itself. Where did it come from?
Now that i am the best specie in the world should i just ignore it?

But natural selection itself. Where did it come from?

Dude, natural selection doesn't "come" from anywhere.
If there are two people in the wilderness, one strong and one weak, the weak one dies.
That is all natural selection is. Survival of the fittest. Maybe you are confusing natural selection with evolution?

i don't think it happened all of a sudden.

It didn't. It takes milions and milions of years.

[Bleid]

I'm going to take a stab here and say: there is absolutely no solid evidence that I am aware of supporting the existence of an afterlife - a Hell in this case - and due to that I am not comfortable with leaving justice to god as opposed to other human beings - his flaw, in case I wasn't specific enough here, is being held in the belief of both a god and afterlife existing. Now, if you could enlighten me with evidence of the contrary - evidence pertaining Hell's existence - then that would be lovely. (I'll further make the point: a god having been responsible for the creation of the universe - let us roll with that assumption for now - does not necessarily infer that there is an afterlife as I am sure you are aware.)

Belief in something (even if that something isn't known to be exist) is not a logical flaw, however. It's merely a belief. And so, I've yet to see this case of flawed logic.

If you want more technical detail in simplest form: Why would a criminal fear something they can't see or hear? What Walter said, and I quote, "they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath". Now, yes, I AM assuming that this is a non-deity created world, but for good reason: there's no real evidence on the contrary to make ME believe that there IS a deity that created the world. So, this brings me to my overall point, why would a criminal have fear over something (in this case, the apparent wrath of God) that they have no clue actually exists? However, if they know something tangible exists (such as law enforcement officers that actually arrest you if you're caught in the process of committing a crime or WILL arrest you if charges are pressed against you during the investigation process), then they might have a reason to be afraid. Of course, that doesn't stop many criminals from committing their acts, but we can talk about that in another thread.

But then this is just the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. Concluding the truth or falsity of a proposition because the contrary has a lack of evidence to support it.

Perhaps it IS poorly-reasoned, and I do apologize for that. Now, if this WERE a deity created world, am I certain that we wouldn't prosecute criminals? I'm sure we would, because we have a basic concept of right and wrong. However, I see that the logic Walter presented as this: Well, it doesn't really matter what the criminal does or if we prosecute them or not, they all go to the same God in the end. My entire argument here is how we can know that for sure and why do people think that way? Surely these people must feel comfortable in the idea of simply not prosecuting people and must think the justice system we have is useless since, hey, God is apparently the ultimate judge of our lives. This is what I'm reading it as, so that's just MY interpretation. Until Walter comes along to clarify, or until someone else tries to, I don't think that will change.

And similarly for the case of there not being a God - this is also uncertain, and so to say that claims about God's judgement contain logic flaws is silly, because we aren't certain that there isn't a God, either.

We might want to address the soundness of such reasoning, specifically with regards to the truth of the premises. But we shouldn't speak of a logic flaw just because we disagree with the alleged truth of such propositions of God's existence.

I simply made the assumption that that was what you believed, so again, I do apologize for that. Again, I'm going off of what Walter responded with, not necessarily what you had said.

Fair enough.

[conniption]

Well thats the point.
You can never say whether a person is really religious or not.or even believe in god or not.
My cousin for example is not a religious person at all but believes in god.
No, going to hell or heaven is not just by being religious or not.
It is just one side of the case.you are being judged by whatever you have done in this world.religion just shows you the way and makes it easier for you.
When a person has been born in a place that his surrounding are all athiest and no one has ever told him about religion then it is not his fault. He will be judged by his actions in this world.
No, you know nothing about religion.

Right, so three years ago, when I was a devout catholic, believe it or not, my life was easier? I went to church, I prayed before my meals, celebrated all the catholic holidays, and guess what, my life wasn't any easier. I was, however, severely heartbroken when I'd pray to God to make my parents stop fighting and nothing would happen. I'm happier now, I work hard for what I want, I don't sit around and wait for it to be given to me by some divine deity.

[Sanctum]

Right, so three years ago, when I was a devout catholic, believe it or not, my life was easier? I went to church, I prayed before my meals, celebrated all the catholic holidays, and guess what, my life wasn't any easier. I was, however, severely heartbroken when I'd pray to God to make my parents stop fighting and nothing would happen. I'm happier now, I work hard for what I want, I don't sit around and wait for it to be given to me by some divine deity.

That was obviously a test from God.
all of religious persons have these tests.God wants to know whether their religion is true or not? unfortunately you failed that exam
i myself had a lot but never lost my faith.
if god was about to make every one good people then what was the sense of hell and heaven?

[thermid]

See, the problem your gonna have arguing with the lefties over this is that they wouldn't even support the death sentence for Hitler, so they'd probably have trouble imagining God's wrath :)

don't "leftie" countries like china and north korea have the death penalty...?

[Cpt_Cutter]

That was obviously a test from God.
all of religious persons have these tests.God wants to know whether their religion is true or not? unfortunately you failed that exam
i myself had a lot but never lost my faith.

Or maybe, just maybe, the stories about a mythical deity who hasn't contacted humanity in 2000 years might not be real, and he was just going through a really shitty period in his life?

[Sanctum]

Or maybe, just maybe, the stories about a mythical deity who hasn't contacted humanity in 2000 years might not be real, and he was just going through a really shitty period in his life?

You haven't experienced such faith and peace when you pass that exam that is why you think so.
i had a lot of shitty periods in my life like that.life has good periods and bad ones.
But if you keep your faith then you will realize the true meaning of peace.

[Miserabilia]

That was obviously a test from God.
all of religious persons have these tests.God wants to know whether their religion is true or not? unfortunately you failed that exam
i myself had a lot but never lost my faith.
if god was about to make every one good people then what was the sense of hell and heaven?

LOL! Funny how that's the way religion solves everything.
Pray to god and something happens? ITS A MIRACLE ITS A MIRACLE
Pray to god and nothing happens? Nah its just a test from god.

You can have your opinion but it's DEFINETLY not "obviously" .
Also, someone tells you about their bad period and life and you respond with they failed?
Not only is that awful, but also Mirman described that her life got better afterwards.
There is a flaw in your logic then.
If she failed god's exam, how come things went better afterwards?

You haven't experienced such faith and peace when you pass that exam that is why you think so.
i had a lot of shitty periods in my life like that.life has good periods and bad ones.
But if you keep your faith then you will realize the true meaning of peace.

:what:

[Sanctum]

LOL! Funny how that's the way religion solves everything.
Pray to god and something happens? ITS A MIRACLE ITS A MIRACLE
Pray to god and nothing happens? Nah its just a test from god.

You can have your opinion but it's DEFINETLY not "obviously" .
Also, someone tells you about their bad period and life and you respond with they failed?
Not only is that awful, but also Mirman described that her life got better afterwards.
There is a flaw in your logic then.
If she failed god's exam, how come things went better afterwards?


what have you thought about god?
someone who if we don't obey him will send misfortune for us?
no,the god who i know is very compassionate.

again i say
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND GOD'S WISDOM
nor do i.
We are human beings and our mind is limited we can not accept what we don't see.

I don't want to continue anymore because we can not convince each other.

[Miserabilia]

what have you thought about god?
someone who if we don't obey him will send misfortune for us?
no,the god who i know is very compassionate.

again i say
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND GOD'S WISDOM
nor do i.
We are human beings and our mind is limited we can not accept what we don't see.

I don't want to continue anymore because we can not convince each other.

no,the god who i know is very compassionate.

So then what was the point of the "exam" you talked about?

We are human beings and our mind is limited we can not accept what we don't see.

So I might as well beleive in a flying spaghetti monster.

I don't want to continue anymore because we can not convince each other.

k.

[Sanctum]

So then what was the point of the "exam" you talked about?



It is about detecting the true believers so that he can help them in hard conditions and to let them in heaven.



So I might as well beleive in a flying spaghetti monster.




No problem! you can imagine him in any shape you like.
We dont know what god looks like, althought he is a POWER not a shape or something.
we should not think about his shape or size or something like this cause this will lead us to deny him.

Please don't double post. -Cygnus David

[Bleid]

what have you thought about god?
someone who if we don't obey him will send misfortune for us?
no,the god who i know is very compassionate.

again i say
YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND GOD'S WISDOM
nor do i.
We are human beings and our mind is limited we can not accept what we don't see.

I don't want to continue anymore because we can not convince each other.

I just have one question.

YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND GOD'S WISDOM
nor do i.

no,the god who i know is very compassionate.

[Sanctum]

I just have one question.

I mean he has aims for his actions that we might not understand because we are humans and our mind is limited so we can not accept what we can not see.
I said his wisdom not him.

[Cygnus]

This seems to be de-railing out of the main subject, please get back on topic. Also, I know religion might be a touchy subject, but be mature about it.

[tovaris]

Yes, instead of putting someone through the courts of justice, like it SHOULD be, let's do it the RIGHT way and let an invisible deity do the judging.


I like this sentence, so im going to hijack it if mr dakota doesnt mind and agree with the sarcastik tone of it conpletly.

[Miserabilia]

It is about detecting the true believers so that he can help them in hard conditions and to let them in heaven.



No problem! you can imagine him in any shape you like.
We dont know what god looks like, althought he is a POWER not a shape or something.
we should not think about his shape or size or something like this cause this will lead us to deny him.

Please don't double post. -Cygnus David

1: You do not know what god looks like, so you can leave it to your imagination
2: "God is a power" you can not proof this power, so you can not proof god.

----> all that is left is imagination.
God is imaginitive.

So if you want to imagine him or her punishing criminals after death, you can.
But it has nothing to do with the real world.

[Sanctum]

1: You do not know what god looks like, so you can leave it to your imagination
2: "God is a power" you can not proof this power, so you can not proof god.

----> all that is left is imagination.
God is imaginitive.

So if you want to imagine him or her punishing criminals after death, you can.
But it has nothing to do with the real world.

Great! If you can understand the meaning of God then you dont need to Imagine him.
I thought you can not anything you can not see.

I can not force anyone to believe god.
People themselves should realize his existance.
I don't think all we do in this world will be gone someday.
I just can't accept this.

[lijrobert]

From a human perspective, it is not fair that Hitler got to kill millions of people and we only got to kill him once. That however is just it. We give God this big power to punish those who do what we think is bad, because we believe that they should be punished more. We want them to feel suffering for what they have done, but as an atheist I think nothing matters beyond death. The bones of Hitler, or whatever remains of him on the planet, are not evil. They do not want to kill more people. His mind, which was just electrical impulses and several pounds of brain matter in my opinion, is gone. I think there is no greater punishment than that. No one wants to not exist, and I believe thats what happens when you die. I only wish it didn't have to happen to all of us. Whatever you believe is fine. This post is just my two cents

[Miserabilia]

Great! If you can understand the meaning of God then you dont need to Imagine him.
I thought you can not anything you can not see.

I can not force anyone to believe god.
People themselves should realize his existance.
I don't think all we do in this world will be gone someday.
I just can't accept this.

K i'm not sure if you're just misinterpertating what I'm saying or if you just don't care either way thumbs up lol :P

From a human perspective, it is not fair that Hitler got to kill millions of people and we only got to kill him once. That however is just it. We give God this big power to punish those who do what we think is bad, because we believe that they should be punished more. We want them to feel suffering for what they have done, but as an atheist I think nothing matters beyond death. The bones of Hitler, or whatever remains of him on the planet, are not evil. They do not want to kill more people. His mind, which was just electrical impulses and several pounds of brain matter in my opinion, is gone. I think there is no greater punishment than that. No one wants to not exist, and I believe thats what happens when you die. I only wish it didn't have to happen to all of us. Whatever you believe is fine. This post is just my two cents

I aggree completely.

[Sir Suomi]

Well damn we've started another flame war on the forums. Well, that's another pour of whiskey into my eggnog...

Regardless, referring back to the OP, I'm going tell you a fact that all human beings, rich, poor, happy, or sad, know: Life isn't fair. There is no reason or rhyme for it, instead, it's just as concrete as the law of gravity. Sooner or later in life, you are going to meet an obstacle that you have no power over, and it will hinder you from reaching your goals or objectives (i.e, "Not fair"). People are going to do bad things, and sometimes, they will go unpunished. Sadly, it happens. But expecting a deity to do that task for us is completely absurd. We should focus on punishing those who do these bad deeds, while at the same time, helping those who were victimized. And the only way that will be accomplished is if we take things in our own hands, not pray that something will smite them down and punish them afterwards.

[darthearth]

I can not force anyone to believe god.
People themselves should realize his existance.


:yeah:

Well damn we've started another flame war on the forums. Well, that's another pour of whiskey into my eggnog...

Regardless, referring back to the OP, I'm going tell you a fact that all human beings, rich, poor, happy, or sad, know: Life isn't fair. There is no reason or rhyme for it, instead, it's just as concrete as the law of gravity. Sooner or later in life, you are going to meet an obstacle that you have no power over, and it will hinder you from reaching your goals or objectives (i.e, "Not fair"). People are going to do bad things, and sometimes, they will go unpunished. Sadly, it happens. But expecting a deity to do that task for us is completely absurd. We should focus on punishing those who do these bad deeds, while at the same time, helping those who were victimized. And the only way that will be accomplished is if we take things in our own hands, not pray that something will smite them down and punish them afterwards.

Do you think it's better to have life imprisonment or a death penalty? I would guess you would support life imprisonment? As the death penalty is leaving it up to a god? Or do you think the death penalty is sufficient punishment in and of itself?

[Sir Suomi]

:yeah:



Do you think it's better to have life imprisonment or a death penalty? I would guess you would support life imprisonment? As the death penalty is leaving it up to a god? Or do you think the death penalty is sufficient punishment in and of itself?

Try not to jump to assumptions. It'll make you look like a fool faster than you'd expect. Regardless, however, you were correct this time.

I do not believe that the answer to a murder is to commit another murder. Why do us humans believe the only way to solve our problems is through pain and death? I'd suggest that we try and find a way to punish those who do dastardly deeds such as murder, rape, etc, while at the same time not causing even more grief. Most people argue that it provides closure to the victim's family, when in all retrospect, it most definitely does not. Putting a lethal injection into your son's murderer does not bring back your son, instead, it leaves yet another dead human being on this earth. Instead, let us put the criminal into a place of hard labor that will remind him daily of the things he's done, while at the same time benefiting our own economy, which we drastically need.

[SCHS1998]

So you would be perfectly content in just letting someone who has committed a crime, say robbery, just to keep things simple, walk off without having charges pressed, no trial by jury, no jail time...nothing? All because it makes more sense, according to you, for a deity that we can't see or hear to do the judging. No, I don't think it works that way.

You see, I kind of like a system where we don't let criminals get away with committing a crime. If you do do something, you damn well better be prepared for the consequences if you get caught. Look, I don't care if there really IS a God or not, and if you believe in him, that's all well and good; but to sit there and tell me that we have no place on this earth to put wrongdoers behind bars is just nuts. In paraphrase, that's what you're condoning. "Just leave it to God! He knows best!" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let rapists, murderers, and plunderers get away with their crimes. They deserve their day in court, in front of a jury of their peers, and, should they be found guilty, their sentence in jail.



Granted, I was in a pretty dark pit in my life when I proclaimed atheism, but I don't see your point here. Many of my atheist friends are some of the happiest people I know, and while I still battle with depression, I use my new Buddhist faith to overcome that. So would you say I'm still in such a dreadful mindset because I have no apparent "Light of God" in my life? I have the Light of Buddha in my life, and that's simply enough for me. Some people happen to have depression and happen to be atheists; does that necessarily correlate both of them? No. So stop the assumptions now.

I agree criminals should be punished on Earth, heck my dad is a law enforcement officer but we are devout Christians. We believe should be punished on Earth and after they die God decides how their eternity should be spent. One thing that I think is funny is that people try to rationalize God, but he is something that is beyond the realm of human comprehension, we will never be able to completely understand or explain him. I do think that in posts that ask if my religion makes sense is something that can only be explained through one word...faith. I would also really appreciate it if people didn't try to comment on things of which they have a very limited understanding.

[daniel74]

If you have not, you should read Vernon God Little by DBC Pierre.

Poses a similar question. This thread has now officially gone too far :)

[mww113]

From what I've gathered, you're asking if it's fair that someone who has committed terrible crimes should not have to go to hell? (I think?)

The answer I would give is: as an athiest I don't believe in hell. Therefore asking the question of is it fair that someone should go or not go there is a bit strange. It would be like asking if it's fair that a good person should go to Narnia? Since I don't believe in the existence of the metaphysical, the question of its fairness becomes irrelevant.

As far as the death penalty is concerned, I don't support it. I don't particularly care to elaborate on why I don't, but I don't. Did Hitler deserve death? Possibly. Probably even. But I don't want to be the executioner. I don't want to make that judgement. But the question is a bit silly anyway since he killed himself. We don't have to worry about punishing him anymore.

EDIT: I'm also not going to engage in the "Does god exist?" debate. I don't think that question can be answered over the internet, and I don't want to jump into a flame war.

[HUSTLEMAN]

Thats an unfair assumption. I'm a "liberal", and of course I believe Hitler should have been killed, Tortured even (tho perhaps thats a wee bit drastic),,,, and most people would probably agree with me. Stop tarring all non-conservatives with the same brush. It makes youre argument look invalid and immature

I'm right with you on this one 100%

[AtypicalTeen]

This kind of assumes the universe owes us a sense of justice, it doesn't. Besides, as I see it, people shouldn't be "punished" for their actions, jail (or even the death penalty which is a separate issue) are a deterrent to stop these actions. In the case of life sentences or the death penalty, you are permanently stopping them from doing it as they cannot be trusted not to do, whatever crime it happens to be, again. When someone decides to take anothers life then they lose the right to freedom (and some would say their right to live but once again, separate issue).