Scottish independence?

[tovaris]

Scottland isbprepering itself for the upcoming independence referendum. What are your thaughts on the mather? Should scottland claim thir right and become an independant country?

In my opinion YES yes they should, they deserve it and have been trying for it for such a long time that they should finaly get wht is esentaly their right?

I do not wish for this thread to become a filosofical descusion about a nations right to govern themselves for that go to: http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198829

Edit:
I see the descusion comming alonge nicely, stil not getting envolved thow. Just wished to remind you all that we have countries independant ones who use foreighn curency for many diferent reasons... Montenegro for example, they hse the euro which isnt their corency (not to mention the small number of people in the country conpared to say scottland)

[Harry Smith]

Scottland isbprepering itself for the upcoming independence referendum. What are your thaughts on the mather? Should scottland claim thir right and become an independant country?

In my opinion YES yes they should, they deserve it and have been trying for it for such a long time that they should finaly get wht is esentaly their right?

I do not wish for this thread to become a filosofical descusion about a nations right to govern themselves for that go to: http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198829

You quite clearly have no idea about Scottish Politics or their people. I've been up to Scotland and I've got family in Scotland. Hardly anyone I met actually wanted independence because they consider them-self British rather than Scottish and they're country really isn't ready for independence- they would have to increase VAT to 25% and cut public spending just to survive for the whole year.

You make it out as if they have been fighting a war for the last 100 years- the majority of Scots don't want independence. They've been part of Britain for the last 300 years

This only started back in 2007 when the Scottish national party won the election because of people being sick of 10 years of Labour- the Scottish people don't want independence

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#General_polling

Only one poll has the Scottish 'yes' vote ahead and that was done by the Scottish national party

[tovaris]

You quite clearly have no idea about Scottish Politics or their people. I've been up to Scotland and I've got family in Scotland. Hardly anyone I met actually wanted independence because they consider them-self British rather than Scottish and they're country really isn't ready for independence- they would have to increase VAT to 25% and cut public spending just to survive for the whole year.

You make it out as if they have been fighting a war for the last 100 years- the majority of Scots don't want independence. They've been part of Britain for the last 300 years

This only started back in 2007 when the Scottish national party won the election because of people being sick of 10 years of Labour- the Scottish people don't want independence

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#General_polling

Only one poll has the Scottish 'yes' vote ahead and that was done by the Scottish national party

Yes i did make it out as they have been trying for centuries, because they have (sone centuries more agresevly than others, in some centuries more aveare than in others...)

[Harry Smith]

Yes i did make it out as they have been trying for centuries, because they have (sone centuries more agresevly than others, in some centuries more aveare than in others...)

Yep ignore the substance of the argument.

They've also been trying for independence in Cornwall, London, Wales and Yorkshire. Just because a small group want independence doesn't mean it should be forced upon the majority- that's not Democratic

[tovaris]

Yep ignore the substance of the argument.

They've also been trying for independence in Cornwall, London, Wales and Yorkshire. Just because a small group want independence doesn't mean it should be forced upon the majority- that's not Democratic

I newer intended to touch the substance of the argument and do not intend to.
But i will say this, independance should and can only be acheved on democratic terms.

[Scottishdanny]

I hope this isn't too large a 'bump', but I'd consider it rather pointless to simply create another thread on the issue as there's one quite recent here. It's only been ~2 weeks since the last post, that's not too bad.

I'm Scottish myself, and I am extremely opinionated and passionate about my own views on independence. I am 100% opposed to independence: both due to the disastrous effect it would have on Scotland, but also due to the actual apparent 'democratic basis' of it - an issue that doesn't exist.

One of the nationalists main arguments for independence is that it's a fundamental requirement for a country to be a democratic country, as we pride ourselves on being, that we "get the government we vote for". Right now, we have a Tory government ruling the United Kingdom (well, technically a coalition, however in reality the Tory's have the power). Whilst the Tory's didn't actually win many seats in Scotland (I believe they only have one or two constituencies), they're governing the United Kingdom along with the Lib Dems, who had somewhat more electoral success in Scotland. This isn't as huge a problem for me as an individual because I am a Tory, however, Scotland in general is a centre-left wing country, whilst the Tory's are centre-right.

Hence, devolution was introduced (as well as for the three other devolved countries in Scotland). The basic principle behind it?

A. So political views of the Scottish population are more present in the decisions that more directly affect them, e.g. policing, healthcare
B. So the interests of the Scottish people come first in this new Parliament, rather than that of the whole UK.

Now, I have no problem with this being the case. The current status of devolution, as well as the further devolution being granted over taxes and spending further, is more than sufficient for balancing this difference in opinions on the political spectrum between Scotland and the rest of the UK. However, whilst it sates my appetite (and that of most Scots, as the polls currently say) it doesn't sate that of the nationalists. They claim they don't have the powers to represent Scotland's best interests, when in reality, Alex Salmond and his party which are the current governing party in Scotland are essentially refusing to implement things that they have the power and ability to implement now and instead saying "You'll only get the after independence". The Deputy First Minister summed the nationalist view up perfectly when she said that she wouldn't improve childcare until after independence because she didn't want be union getting any money off of it - sacrificing the welfare and interests of people in pursuit of their dream of independence.

We don't need full independence to have Scots interests represented best - we have a Devolved Parliament with the full powers to do that job, however, we have a Scottish Government that is failing to do that job and instead spending precious tax-payers money on their own party's pursuit for independence, despite the vast majority of polls saying Scot's don't want independence.

Furthermore, the main opposition to independence is the fact it equates to Scots having a worse-off life than they do currently. Pro-Yes campaigners are always quick to blast Westminster for their attempts to settle the mess left behind by Labour and the Global Financial Crisis, by taking the only possible steps of making cuts (rather than borrowing more and more as Ed&Ed want us to). The United Kingdom is by no means in a comfortable position right now in terms of its economy or much else for that matter, but by leaving the UK we lose so much more.

We lose our armed forces and their world-renown expertise (only those Scots who choose to join the 'Scottish Defence Force' will move out of the British Forces, and it's suggested most will not due to more opportunities being available in the larger, stronger British armed forces).

We lose our global presence: the Scottish Governments 'White Paper' (what they claim is a factual and costed document for independence, but in reality is an uncosted wish list of their party's manifesto - you can see it online if you don't believe me) says we'd have under half of the diplomatic missions the UK has abroad, so our presence in countries is lessened greatly. We lose our permanent position on the UNSC, however the UK retains it because they aren't the chaps becoming a new country. We are outwith the EU - as EU officials and experts say, but the nationalists refuse to accept - and we do need to re-apply, a move which could be objected to by EU member states with their own agendas (e.g. Spain not wanting to set a precedent for Catalonian independence).

We lose the actual financial strength of the UK, which has lessened hugely, but still was the sole reason our banks are still afloat. An independent Scotland would not have been even to bail out banks like the RBS.

Moreover, the actual idea of independence put forward by the nationalists is truly lacking in actual independence itself. They want to keep the pound - a currency that will be foreign, and we'll have no more control over than we do now: our currency still in the hands of the rest of the UK. We'd keep the Queen as our Head of State, something that I support greatly as I do support the Royal Family, so I can't technically complain about that. And we'd even share energy supplies with them. For being so opposed to the Union, they sure do want to keep quite a bit of it.

And it's hardly as if we get a bad deal out of the union anyway. We have a government that is democratically elected by the UK, and represents the UK. We then have a devolved parliament that represents the Scottish people and is based on Scots votes, and deals with issues closer to home and that directly affect us (although, here's hoping the government sitting in that parliament after the next election puts its duties first). And we get subsidised and supported by the rest of the UK as well, although, the nationalists would have you believe different with the figures they produce incorrectly and quotes they selectively quote.

You'll note my opposition to the SNP themselves, anyway, from what I've written. And it's not irrational: they've put the current interests of the Scottish people behind and instead put their wish for independence at the top of their pile, and they are a government, who's leader - Scotland's highest politician - actually reads out letters he has googled, and printed off of a website in the Scottish parliament and throws aside the letters and responses from experts that he has personally received. Independence isn't just about the SNP, however, it's them that'll be sitting round the negotiating table and deciding Scotland's deal for leaving the UK if they manage to brainwash a majority of the Scottish electorate before the referendum.

I can assure you however, they shan't manage with me. I'm most definitely voting No in the upcoming referendum, and I'm going to try my very best to make sure that other people do too.

P.S. Apologies of my grammar is off the rails, I'm typing on an iPad at half 2 and rushing a wee bit.

[Green Arrow]

I like to view The Scottish independence party like a teenager leaving home and moving in nextdoor. He's leaving home yes because he wants to be independent. But he's asked if he could still use things from the fridge. Also his mum will come and do his washing and clean the house. So basically he hasn't become independent at all.

I know it's a pretty rubbish way of putting it but it's basically like that. Plus VAT would have to go up to an incredible 25%!

[Scottishdanny]

I like to view The Scottish independence party like a teenager leaving home and moving in nextdoor. He's leaving home yes because he wants to be independent. But he's asked if he could still use things from the fridge. Also his mum will come and do his washing and clean the house. So basically he hasn't become independent at all.

I know it's a pretty rubbish way of putting it but it's basically like that. Plus VAT would have to go up to an incredible 25%!



That's a surprisingly good metaphor for how it will actually be, I've never thought of it that way before. However, Scotland leaving also has a detrimental effect on the rest of the UK. Currently we hold the UK's nuclear arsenal, host the largest renewable energy capability in either wind or hydro (I can't recall at this very moment) in Europe, and the oil fields have a chance of leaving with us: as well as the assets that Scotland would have the ability to take, such as military devices, parts of diplomatic missions as well (or so you have the SNP thinking, it isn't truly confirmed).

It comes down to more than just VAT coming up. It comes down to living standards depleting in Scotland and also harm coming to all parts of the UK as a result of it.

[britishboy]

Obviously we all know Scottish independence is a joke HOWEVER if they go independent we say goodbye to loads of labour seats and have a long conservative government:)

[Sugaree]

Obviously we all know Scottish independence is a joke HOWEVER if they go independent we say goodbye to loads of labour seats and have a long conservative government:)

>independence is a joke

Yeah, just look how America turned out for about the first century and a half. We were just so fucked up without you wonderful Brits to guide us. How wonderful an attitude to take, thinking that independence for a people is a joke. I realize that a large majority of the Scottish don't want independence, but to call it a joke? That's just an invalid argument.

[britishboy]

>independence is a joke

Yeah, just look how America turned out for about the first century and a half. We were just so fucked up without you wonderful Brits to guide us. How wonderful an attitude to take, thinking that independence for a people is a joke. I realize that a large majority of the Scottish don't want independence, but to call it a joke? That's just an invalid argument.

No Scottish independence is a joke, not independence in general, stop trolling.

[Vlerchan]

Obviously we all know Scottish independence is a joke [...]How? I'm not a Scottish nationalist but I'm failing to see how you can claim that a long-term struggle for independence is a joke - as far as I'm aware it wasn't always this unpopular (in Scotland); there used to be a rather valid basis to push for it.

They want to keep the pound - a currency that will be foreign, and we'll have no more control over than we do now: our currency still in the hands of the rest of the UK[2]. We'd keep the Queen as our Head of State[1], something that I support greatly as I do support the Royal Family, so I can't technically complain about that. And we'd even share energy supplies with them For being so opposed to the Union, they sure do want to keep quite a bit of it.
[1]: Scotland are going for dominion statues within the Commonwealth - thus retaining the highly beneficial internal market - as opposed to full independence. It's what the Republic of Ireland was (forced) to hold between 1922 and 1948 and is currently held by both Australia and Canada amongst others. That's why they must retain the Queen; not because the Scottish nationalists want to.

[2]:Scotland are retaining the pound because it's a) a strong currency; much stronger than any currency they'll be able to form themselves and b) and their largest trading partners will be using the pound. Perhaps they'll adopt the euro in the future, though (because it's unlikely they'll be rejected.)

[Harry Smith]

Obviously we all know Scottish independence is a joke HOWEVER if they go independent we say goodbye to loads of labour seats and have a long conservative government:)

Lol yeah sure- have you seen the polling for labour at the moment- 39% compared to the conservatives. Look at the results from 1997,2001 and 2005 which all show that Labour is able to win an election without Scotland. It's only 41 seats and considering that Miliband is expected to have a majority of at least 84 in the next election the labour party will be fine without scotland.

It's not a joke-it's people like you who are causing the scots to want to go it alone, many smaller countries in Europe such as Belgium managed to move away from a major power (france) and be successful afterwards- I'd even cite the History of Ireland for the last 70 years as an example of how a country can go it alone.

Once again your points just consist of mindless wank

[Sugaree]

No Scottish independence is a joke, not independence in general, stop trolling.

I'm not trolling, your point and opinion is very clear: you think independence is simply overrated. You don't think that the Scots could make it on their own, and while it would definitely be a rough ride for them, things would eventually even out if they did gain independence. If a country wants their independence, let them have it. However, as Harry pointed out, in this case, it's such a small minority that wants it that it's useless to grant.

Just look at all the countries you Brits lost that once belonged to your mighty Empire. They're all independent now and doing just fine. Was it such a joke that they might have wanted independence then?

[Scottishdanny]

[1]: Scotland are going for dominion statues within the Commonwealth - thus retaining the highly beneficial internal market - as opposed to full independence. It's what the Republic of Ireland was (forced) to hold between 1922 and 1948 and is currently held by both Australia and Canada amongst others. That's why they must retain the Queen; not because the Scottish nationalists want to.

[2]:Scotland are retaining the pound because it's a) a strong currency; much stronger than any currency they'll be able to form themselves and b) and their largest trading partners will be using the pound. Perhaps they'll adopt the euro in the future, though (because it's unlikely they'll be rejected.)

1. Scotland has no requirement to actually keep the Queen. That is something that is to be decided in time and by the governments an independent Scotland would elect, as has been admitted by the Yes campaign, many of whom actually have the intent of pushing for us to not retain the monarchy, e.g. Dennis Canavan (YesScotland's chairman). The only reason it is definite we'll keep the Queen initially, is because that's what the SNP want, and they're the ones who are going to be negotiating any exit from the UK.

2. I'm not opposed to an independent Scotland keeping the Pound, indeed, I'm in favour of it: if we were to gain independence, then I'd wish us to keep it - that's not the point of my argument there - however, the idea of retaining the pound does completely undermine one of the most important nationalist arguments for independence - that independence would give Scotland full control of its economy. Retaining the pound destroys that idea; it means that Scotland is running under a currency that is owned, operated and managed in a foreign state, which results in complete dependence. It means that Scotland's economy is in the hands of the remnants of the UK: exactly what the nationalists claim to be so keen to escape.

The point does indeed still remain however. The issues identified by nationalists as justification for independence don't truly exist as they envision them so. The outcomes of independence (as confirmed by experts, time and time again, yet refuted by the nationalists) could become catastrophic for Scots, and most definitely will be detrimental. We know this. Anyone who's done proper research on the issue (e.g. not instantly believing assertions made by either side of the campaign, but actually looking at evidence) knows that.

Scottish Independence, for many of its supporters is simply an issue of the false image of Scotland being chained down, held back by Westminster and the rest of the UK's population. They imagine the rest of the UK being this Tory Toyland where all us Tory's plot to destroy people's lives, steal money from the old, sick and disabled and ruin Scotland - when in reality, it is through gaining independence Scotland will face its harshest years, see its economy decline and experience a drop in living standards and cut in public services* like never before.

[ImCoolBeans]

I don't think Scottish independence is a good idea economically. Would they develop a new currency? That would have a high chance of failing. From my understanding the majority of Scotland does not want to be totally independent, so maybe it's best that they don't venture out on their own, or at least not yet.

No Scottish independence is a joke, not independence in general, stop trolling.

If you think that's trolling then you have no idea what trolling is.

[tovaris]

I see the descusion comming alonge nicely, stil not getting envolved thow. Just wished to remind you all that we have countries independant ones who use foreighn curency for many diferent reasons... Montenegro for example, they hse the euro which isnt their corency (not to mention the small number of people in the country conpared to say scottland)

[Scottishdanny]

I see the descusion comming alonge nicely, stil not getting envolved thow. Just wished to remind you all that we have countries independant ones who use foreighn curency for many diferent reasons... Montenegro for example, they hse the euro which isnt their corency (not to mention the small number of people in the country conpared to say scottland)

That is true, however, the Euro is a currency that is purposely in place to be ran as a multi-country currency and to serve several independent EU states (and non-EU states, for example, as you mentioned: Montenegro). The pound is not a currency designed to be operated over multiple countries (although, several small British Overseas Territories use it or variations of it, they aren't countries with a population of 5m+), and nor is its central bank designed or structured to run a currency for a foreign state either. Scotland would not be granted any more power over the Pound than it does right now, which I believe is one seat on the Bank of England's Governance. The BoE is under no obligation to give Scotland any power over it: when it comes to the Euro, it's users (or at least most of them, I'm unsure of how much say non-EU users have) do indeed have some power over it and are able to excersise at least some control over it, as it's their countries' central banks that own the ECB.

It's simply illogical for the UK to actually allow Scotland to use it's pound, regardless of how beneficial it is for Scotlad to technically, despite it's lack of control and how much I'd prefer it to the Euro or the Scottish Unicorn (or whatever we'd name our currency, an apt name if you were to name it after our national animal). The Euro and Pound can't be used in a comparison as a foreign currency for a country because of the sheer differences between them.

[Hyper]

Why even debate about this?

The entire idea of freedom is the right to make your own choices.

So let the Scottish people decide wether they want a country to call Scotland or just a part of the UK everyone calls Scotland anyway for themselves.

I personally believe they wont decide for independence because nothing currently opresses their cultural heritage Scots are still Scots and always have been, as long as a local populance has their culture respected independence as a nation means little to them.

[Sph2015]

Bottom line the benefits are currently far outweighed, and the general Scottish consensus is against it. It's about as black and white as it can be.

Yeah, just look how America turned out for about the first century and a half. We were just so fucked up without you wonderful Brits to guide us. How wonderful an attitude to take, thinking that independence for a people is a joke. I realize that a large majority of the Scottish don't want independence, but to call it a joke? That's just an invalid argument.

Buddy, if you're seriously holding a grudge its time for you to give it up. Its been almost 250 years. Guess what, America certainly doesn't have a spotless reputation. Heck, even when it comes to imperialism. Have you heard of a little state called Hawaii?

Nobody ever said independence is pointless, only that it would be unwise for Scotland to seek it currently. Calm down.

[tovaris]

That is true, however, the Euro is a currency that is purposely in place to be ran as a multi-country currency and to serve several independent EU states (and non-EU states, for example, as you mentioned: Montenegro). The pound is not a currency designed to be operated over multiple countries (although, several small British Overseas Territories use it or variations of it, they aren't countries with a population of 5m+), and nor is its central bank designed or structured to run a currency for a foreign state either. Scotland would not be granted any more power over the Pound than it does right now, which I believe is one seat on the Bank of England's Governance. The BoE is under no obligation to give Scotland any power over it: when it comes to the Euro, it's users (or at least most of them, I'm unsure of how much say non-EU users have) do indeed have some power over it and are able to excersise at least some control over it, as it's their countries' central banks that own the ECB.

It's simply illogical for the UK to actually allow Scotland to use it's pound, regardless of how beneficial it is for Scotlad to technically, despite it's lack of control and how much I'd prefer it to the Euro or the Scottish Unicorn (or whatever we'd name our currency, an apt name if you were to name it after our national animal). The Euro and Pound can't be used in a comparison as a foreign currency for a country because of the sheer differences between them.

To point out many countries, evennlarge ones with no link to th us use the $

[Vlerchan]

1. Scotland has no requirement to actually keep the Queen.I actually looked into it. It seems you're right; the criteria regarding membership of the Commonwealth of Nations has (somewhat unsurprisingly) changed since Ireland was a member. In 1949 it was made no longer necessary to retain the monarch as your head of state in order to remain a member of the Commonwealth - Ireland having dropped the monarch in 1948.

Though I presume the crowns retention is simply a gambit to get royalists like yourself onto the pro-independence side for the referendum; it'll be dropped sharpish if - big if here - Scotland does actually gain independence is my guess.

[AlexOnToast]

We were talkiing about this in skwl today, coincedence...

[Yolo98]

Doesn't really matter , i don't care, and most English people feel the same way about it .

[britishboy]

Doesn't really matter , i don't care, and most English people feel the same way about it .

Actually it would get rid of many labour seats:D

[Harry Smith]

Actually it would get rid of many labour seats:D

So for that reason you would be happy for the country to lose at least 20% of it's economic capital, a submarine base and it's oil reserves. That's pretty petty, you shouldn't base such big decisions on party politics. It's like cuting off your nose to spite your face

[Yolo98]

Actually it would get rid of many labour seats:D


Very true as well, the Scots are renound socialists and have put around 50 odd labour mps in Westminster !!!

[britishboy]

Very true as well, the Scots are renound socialists and have put around 50 odd labour mps in Westminster !!!

So if we get rid of Scotland, we get rid of the crazy labour party.... Now where is my pro independence flag:D

[Harry Smith]

So if we get rid of Scotland, we get rid of the crazy labour party.... Now where is my pro independence flag:D

So your basing the downfall of a 300 year old union on the fact that a Party has 41 seats there? -edited. unnecessary. -Emerald Dream

As I pointed out above, and as you quite clearly ignored labour only have 41 seats in Scotland meaning that it would only half their 87 seat Majority predicted by the Telegraph polls.

[Zenos]

Being part Scottish even though i'm from across the pond hey if Scotland does become an independant country did the ones from britian on this thread blah blahing it ever stop to think that they might eventually become a very successful nation on their own.

[scott757]

I am also in the No camp. Forward warning here, I am in no way politically minded and political stuff bores the living daylights out of me. HOWEVER - I am Scottish therefore I have an opinion on it. Most of my comments are based on my own observations and common sense and I do apologise if I am being wrong or naive on any of these points.

I think the SNP are trying to buy the votes as much as is legally possible, for example, getting rid of the nuclear weapons, keeping the monarchy, letting 16 year olds vote etc. If they do things to keep people happy, then the more they are likely to vote yes, as they get what they want, for example, they may feel strongly against having the sub base (with its special weapons) more than they do independence, so they will vote yes to get rid of them.

I have a friend who is very pro yes, and trust me, my facebook newsfeed is filled with propaganda - most of which is utter bullshit to try and convince people to vote yes. For example, one post he put up was a picture of the white paper/600+ page book thing, and comparing it to a picture of what the No campaign has produced (nothing). Stuff like that is just going to convince people that the yes is something more than it is - make them THINK that they are doing more than they actually are. Slagging the BBC is also a common one... like that makes a difference to the argument.

The one argument I always use when the nationalists bring up other countries - they didn't do it in the difficult economic times at which we are living in. The challenge would be immense to keep things such as the NHS and benefits going, and still being an economically healthy country. Tax would go up, everything would go up. Bar a finite oil supply, in my opinion I also think that there is not enough trade within Scotland to keep ourselves afloat. I recently had an argument about Malta. Look at the size of Malta, and then compare it to Scotland, then you will see why this is not a good comparison. They are two completely different economies and two completely different situations.

I also agree with the person talking before about the party at the moment. I don't remember hearing much political decisions being made, bar talking about this bloody referendum, and in a way I'm fed up hearing about it.

However, I would support further devolution to a degree, some of the stuff they want from independence, I think that would be a good middle ground, without putting us in a potentially dodgy position.

At the end of the day, if it's Yes, it's yes - I'll give it some time, but if I don't like how I am being made to live with it, I'll be out.