Religion is touchy, but why care of someone elses?

[Lovelife090994]

Hello, I wonder if any of you have noticed how so many people or any faith or lack thereof happen to care so deeply about the beliefs of others. I understand being a missionary but that is voluntary and offering to teach, no, I am talking about flat out disrespect and disregard of others' beliefs.

Now I know we all do not share faith nor the same, that much is certain, and there is nothng wrong with studying religion, but why bother in the affairs of another if they are not bothering you personally?

I myself am a Nondenominational Protestant Christian although to be honest I have backslid as some say, but I could careless what you are. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, Shintoist, Catholic Christian, Voodoo, Tribal, Regional, Jedi, Pastafarian, yes I said it, I may not understand it but if anything I'll ask to learn not to debate with you or insult you. Why do you think so many people have a problem with others' faiths and wrongly accuse a person or group of people for past sins and actions of the radical few?

[Vocabulous]

well, the christian commandment "i am the only god; there shall be no god before me" (i am paraphrasing) and the fact that in the koran, it calls for its followers to fight all enemies of Allah (again, paraphrasing) so that might have something to do with it.

[Syvelocin]

Everyone thinks they're right and that they own something so personal and variable as a person's religion so they can dictate how it should be done.

I said I'm mixed. I really try to respect people's beliefs, but it's really difficult for me to be around openly theistic people. Just imagine if you had a grown man as a friend who truly believes in the easter bunny and Santa Clause. I'm not trying to offend, it's just how it makes me feel honestly, like I thought we all left this behind when we turned ten? Of course, I seriously won't even bring it up if you don't put it out in the open. Only when you shout out your religion for the entire world to hear do I become a bit antagonistic. And maybe this is only because I've never felt allowed to do that by my mum or myself because of her. She's always been supportive, but she always thought it was better to keep the world (or rather, people as close to me as my siblings) in the dark about my "eccentricities."

I by no means try to convert though, and usually try to stay well away from openly religious people. God or no god, it makes me cringe when religion is made so public when it really is a very personal thing. I'm an atheistic wiccan (with satanist influences) and I don't as much mention any sort of details of ritual. It's a very vulnerable and emotional thing for me. Online, I'm pretty blunt and in-your-face (comparatively speaking) about religion, but in person it's more awkward to me than discussing my sex life, especially when people scoff when I say I've never touched a bible but no one bothers to even figure out I don't sacrifice babies.

[ksdnfkfr]

Beats me.
Lots of people are just busybodies I guess.
Then there are those who had a bad experience with religion.
Personally I could care less. I might be interested in what
someone believes, the same as I might be interested in a
hobby they have. But I would not care any more about what
they believe then I care about what their hobby is.

[Ace of Spades]

Nobody has to respect your beliefs. What people must do is respect your right to have your beliefs.
I, for one, do not respect the belief that some humans are inferior to others. I do, however, respect a person's right to have and express their beliefs and opinions. That is a basic human right, though i also maintain the right to say they are full of crap and what they think is BS.
The same thing goes for religion.
The Bible reads: "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." (Psalm 137:9)
I say: "That's disgustingly evil."

[Stronk Serb]

Organized religion is a burden on society. I have nothing against practicing it without a strict hierarchy, but given a leader, it corrupts the first message.

[Gigablue]

No. If people's beliefs are stupid, I will criticize them. I don't do it all the time, but I'm not afraid of having a debate. I don't try to disrespect the person, but the belief is worthy of no respect.

[Sugaree]

Why do you think so many people have a problem with others' faiths and wrongly accuse a person or group of people for past sins and actions of the radical few?

That's because they have a victim's mentality, my friend. When you walk this earth thinking that you are the victim of discrimination, be it on the part of racism, inequality on terms of something like sexuality or gender, or even just based off the color of your hair, this will cause you to judge everyone around you as the reason why you are being discriminated against.

I see a lot of atheists blame Christians for damn near everything wrong in society. They are apparently against all forms of organized religion, no matter the origin. Yet, they look at me, as a Buddhist, as "trying to fix the problem". But they ignore all the good Christian friends of mine do for this community, all the time they spend and money they give back to the community through charity. Truly, one religion is not the problem, nor is it all religions. This is why I left atheism; it was a slope of depression, a pit of nothingness, and an absolute wearing down on my mind. There is no sense in making yourself out to be part of this group of people who claim to be "logical" when they think it is logical to blame whole groups of people for their problems.


I by no means try to convert though, and usually try to stay well away from openly religious people. God or no god, it makes me cringe when religion is made so public when it really is a very personal thing. I'm an atheistic wiccan (with satanist influences) and I don't as much mention any sort of details of ritual. It's a very vulnerable and emotional thing for me. Online, I'm pretty blunt and in-your-face (comparatively speaking) about religion, but in person it's more awkward to me than discussing my sex life, especially when people scoff when I say I've never touched a bible but no one bothers to even figure out I don't sacrifice babies.

This is my same attitude. I don't try to convert others to my religion of choice, either (and that's all Buddhism was, and all religion really is, a choice). But whenever I do come across someone who is curious as to why I am often taking pauses during down times during the day to meditate for five minutes, I'll tell them why. Of course, it's not as hard to tell them if I were to be an atheistic wiccan with satanist influences, but whatever floats your boat, sister!

Telling people, in itself, isn't really hard. Explaining and them understanding isn't hard. Them not judging IS the hard part, because you'll never know what type of person they'll say when you're done explaining. But I take my criticism as it comes. I've been called a heathen for practicing an Eastern religion, even though, technically, everyone here practices Christianity, which can be considered a partially Eastern religion. But none of it bothers me, because I've found an inner sanctum, a peacefulness in it all, so that when I do receive criticism, I am able to smile compassionately and am able to simply move on.


Organized religion is a burden on society. I have nothing against practicing it without a strict hierarchy, but given a leader, it corrupts the first message.

I don't see how all organized religion is a burden on society. If you look at the Catholic Church now, under the new Pope, it seems as if massive reforms could be coming in the next few years. What about the Dalai Lama? Would you consider him and his followers a "burden on society" simply because they organize at conventions or because he speaks at public events? True, Christ or Buddha never spoke about making organizations out of their teachings, but eventually that is what they were obviously destined to become.

No. If people's beliefs are stupid, I will criticize them. I don't do it all the time, but I'm not afraid of having a debate. I don't try to disrespect the person, but the belief is worthy of no respect.

That's a pretty big "if", my friend. I appreciate that you don't try to disrespect the person, but isn't it easier for you to simply not criticize the belief and move on with your life? I now I've kind of harped on my beliefs a bit in this post, but let me harp a bit more and I'll be done, I promise :P

One thing Buddhism teaches is that all things are interconnected. One cannot exist without two; two cannot exist without three; so on and so forth. You can apply this concept with religion in a certain way. Without Christianity, you wouldn't have atheism. Without Islam, you wouldn't have Judaism. Without Buddhism, you wouldn't have Hinduism. And this actually ties in with the Taoism teaching of yin-yang, that there will always be polar opposites. Without these polar opposites, there can not be balance.

[Lovelife090994]

Nobody has to respect your beliefs. What people must do is respect your right to have your beliefs.
I, for one, do not respect the belief that some humans are inferior to others. I do, however, respect a person's right to have and express their beliefs and opinions. That is a basic human right, though i also maintain the right to say they are full of crap and what they think is BS.
The same thing goes for religion.
The Bible reads: "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." (Psalm 137:9)
I say: "That's disgustingly evil."

Quote the rest of that chapter, please. Yes, the Bible has many things in it that sound very harsh but maybe I can elucidate that one for you if I may?

I respect a person's right to have a belief and express it. Even atheists who are extremely outspoken about how much they hate my beliefs, I could care less, just don't put your hands on me.

[Lovelife090994]

That's because they have a victim's mentality, my friend. When you walk this earth thinking that you are the victim of discrimination, be it on the part of racism, inequality on terms of something like sexuality or gender, or even just based off the color of your hair, this will cause you to judge everyone around you as the reason why you are being discriminated against.

I see a lot of atheists blame Christians for damn near everything wrong in society. They are apparently against all forms of organized religion, no matter the origin. Yet, they look at me, as a Buddhist, as "trying to fix the problem". But they ignore all the good Christian friends of mine do for this community, all the time they spend and money they give back to the community through charity. Truly, one religion is not the problem, nor is it all religions. This is why I left atheism; it was a slope of depression, a pit of nothingness, and an absolute wearing down on my mind. There is no sense in making yourself out to be part of this group of people who claim to be "logical" when they think it is logical to blame whole groups of people for their problems.



This is my same attitude. I don't try to convert others to my religion of choice, either (and that's all Buddhism was, and all religion really is, a choice). But whenever I do come across someone who is curious as to why I am often taking pauses during down times during the day to meditate for five minutes, I'll tell them why. Of course, it's not as hard to tell them if I were to be an atheistic wiccan with satanist influences, but whatever floats your boat, sister!

Telling people, in itself, isn't really hard. Explaining and them understanding isn't hard. Them not judging IS the hard part, because you'll never know what type of person they'll say when you're done explaining. But I take my criticism as it comes. I've been called a heathen for practicing an Eastern religion, even though, technically, everyone here practices Christianity, which can be considered a partially Eastern religion. But none of it bothers me, because I've found an inner sanctum, a peacefulness in it all, so that when I do receive criticism, I am able to smile compassionately and am able to simply move on.




I don't see how all organized religion is a burden on society. If you look at the Catholic Church now, under the new Pope, it seems as if massive reforms could be coming in the next few years. What about the Dalai Lama? Would you consider him and his followers a "burden on society" simply because they organize at conventions or because he speaks at public events? True, Christ or Buddha never spoke about making organizations out of their teachings, but eventually that is what they were obviously destined to become.



That's a pretty big "if", my friend. I appreciate that you don't try to disrespect the person, but isn't it easier for you to simply not criticize the belief and move on with your life? I now I've kind of harped on my beliefs a bit in this post, but let me harp a bit more and I'll be done, I promise :P

One thing Buddhism teaches is that all things are interconnected. One cannot exist without two; two cannot exist without three; so on and so forth. You can apply this concept with religion in a certain way. Without Christianity, you wouldn't have atheism. Without Islam, you wouldn't have Judaism. Without Buddhism, you wouldn't have Hinduism. And this actually ties in with the Taoism teaching of yin-yang, that there will always be polar opposites. Without these polar opposites, there can not be balance.

I admire your honesty and civil words, thank you for responding soundly. I think the atheists that blame like that are not atheist but hateful, but I have had atheist friends who now hate me only because now they know I am Christian all because I decided to wear a cross necklace. It stuck me surprised because they seemed so nice, until you bring God in the mix. I admit I myself am not the most religious but I do have some level of faith.

[sqishy]

I think all beliefs should have a right to be respected, as long as everyone does so for everyone else. Carrying some beliefs to the stage where you are either telling someone to convert or go with their beliefs, and disrupting other's lives, it where the respect is lost.

[saea97]

That's because they have a victim's mentality, my friend. When you walk this earth thinking that you are the victim of discrimination, be it on the part of racism, inequality on terms of something like sexuality or gender, or even just based off the color of your hair, this will cause you to judge everyone around you as the reason why you are being discriminated against.

I have no faith in God because I think the concept is irrational and untrue, not because I think religious people are to blame for the world's ills. (As it happens, I do believe that they are to blame for some of the world's ills, but that in itself doesn't lead to atheism; there could perfectly well still be a God even if all the world's Christians were evil. It's about the evidence for me.)

I see a lot of atheists blame Christians for damn near everything wrong in society. They are apparently against all forms of organized religion, no matter the origin. Yet, they look at me, as a Buddhist, as "trying to fix the problem". But they ignore all the good Christian friends of mine do for this community, all the time they spend and money they give back to the community through charity. Truly, one religion is not the problem, nor is it all religions. This is why I left atheism; it was a slope of depression, a pit of nothingness, and an absolute wearing down on my mind. There is no sense in making yourself out to be part of this group of people who claim to be "logical" when they think it is logical to blame whole groups of people for their problems.

You're right: I am against all forms of organised religion. But I am entirely in favour of your prerogative to subscribe to whichever one you'd like. I will never respect irrational faiths, but I will defend to my last breath the rights that people have to hold them, in conjunction with my own right to discuss the merits of faith with the faithful.

I've also never experienced this grandiose slope of depression, nor the pit of nothingness. Maybe that's because I don't blame whole groups of people for society's problems, as you imply atheists do. I just recognize that organized religion and the religious people of the past have done a lot of damage.

[Ace of Spades]

I respect a person's right to have a belief and express it. Even atheists who are extremely outspoken about how much they hate my beliefs, I could care less, just don't put your hands on me.

How many atheists do you personally meet who say something like "I hate your religion"?
Religion is shoved into everything in society. Religion is shoved onto everyone in one way or another. This century is one of the only centuries since the scientific revolution where people, such as atheists, can freely and directly push back against the religion smothering society. This is the century where atheists and social power minorities can stand up and say 'NO' to indoctrination. For the past 2000 years or so, Christianity and Catholicism have been the overwhelming power majorities. Things have, 99% of the time, gone your way for the most part. This century, your power majority is weakening and the power minorities are now (extremely slowly) coming up the giant ramp your religion has built itself so it could dominate society. Things won't always go your way anymore. Religion is basically throwing a hissy fit because it doesn't control everything anymore.

[Tarannosaurus]

In my opinion people can believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm someone else, or infringe on their rights. Religion should be a personal thing and not forced on people. If you think about it, often your religion depends on where you were born, i.e. Irish children are generally brought up Catholic, Pakistani children would generally be brought up Muslim.

[Lovelife090994]

How many atheists do you personally meet who say something like "I hate your religion"?
Religion is shoved into everything in society. Religion is shoved onto everyone in one way or another. This century is one of the only centuries since the scientific revolution where people, such as atheists, can freely and directly push back against the religion smothering society. This is the century where atheists and social power minorities can stand up and say 'NO' to indoctrination. For the past 2000 years or so, Christianity and Catholicism have been the overwhelming power majorities. Things have, 99% of the time, gone your way for the most part. This century, your power majority is weakening and the power minorities are now (extremely slowly) coming up the giant ramp your religion has built itself so it could dominate society. Things won't always go your way anymore. Religion is basically throwing a hissy fit because it doesn't control everything anymore.

You sound angry. What does this have to do with anything I asked when it's mostly misconceptions and generalizations that are untruthful? My way? And what way is that? Your way sounds awfully combative if not utterly churlish.

[Sugaree]

How many atheists do you personally meet who say something like "I hate your religion"?

I've personally met plenty who outright despise religion and anyone who follows a religion. You act like there is such thing as extremist atheism when there is.

Religion is shoved into everything in society. Religion is shoved onto everyone in one way or another.

Name 10 things. Go on, just name those 10 things for me so I can see what religion is, supposedly, being shoved into. Because I certainly don't see it being "shoved" into anything or onto anyone. Again, this is a victim mentality. Get rid of it. If you feel so persecuted by religion, if you feel so offended and upset that someone doesn't believe what you believe in (which, ironically, a lot of religious people do), then just move away.


This century is one of the only centuries since the scientific revolution where people, such as atheists, can freely and directly push back against the religion smothering society. This is the century where atheists and social power minorities can stand up and say 'NO' to indoctrination. For the past 2000 years or so, Christianity and Catholicism have been the overwhelming power majorities. Things have, 99% of the time, gone your way for the most part. This century, your power majority is weakening and the power minorities are now (extremely slowly) coming up the giant ramp your religion has built itself so it could dominate society. Things won't always go your way anymore. Religion is basically throwing a hissy fit because it doesn't control everything anymore.

His way? He never claimed he wanted things to go his way, nor has he ever claimed that. If anything, YOU sound like you want things to go your way and no one else can have as say in the matter. If things went YOUR way, all religious persons wouldn't have a say in the world, right? Because what WE have to say must not matter, simply because we believe in higher powers or prophets.

Religious people don't throw hissy fits. It's the extremists that do. It's the extremists who want religion thrown into every aspect of life, and if that is how they want to live their life, who are YOU to tell them they can't do that?

[Lovelife090994]

I've personally met plenty who outright despise religion and anyone who follows a religion. You act like there is such thing as extremist atheism when there is.



Name 10 things. Go on, just name those 10 things for me so I can see what religion is, supposedly, being shoved into. Because I certainly don't see it being "shoved" into anything or onto anyone. Again, this is a victim mentality. Get rid of it. If you feel so persecuted by religion, if you feel so offended and upset that someone doesn't believe what you believe in (which, ironically, a lot of religious people do), then just move away.




His way? He never claimed he wanted things to go his way, nor has he ever claimed that. If anything, YOU sound like you want things to go your way and no one else can have as say in the matter. If things went YOUR way, all religious persons wouldn't have a say in the world, right? Because what WE have to say must not matter, simply because we believe in higher powers or prophets.

Religious people don't throw hissy fits. It's the extremists that do. It's the extremists who want religion thrown into every aspect of life, and if that is how they want to live their life, who are YOU to tell them they can't do that?

Wow, you said what I was thinking but could not phrase, thank you for your words, I only hope the person you quoted hears you. I honestly can't get why some without religion care so much about it in their lives when they chose not to have it. I don't get it.

[conniption]

Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe--yeah, yeah, we all get this. Problems arise when people act like children and can't get over the fact that other people have different beliefs. I'm atheist and I absolutely hate it when others are constantly talking about their beliefs in an attempt to convert those around them. I've met evangelical atheists and I've met evangelical Christians, they're both equally annoying.

Why the heck does it matter that I'm atheist and you're Christian? We're all human and I like to think we share the same goals; we all want a good education, we all want to have three solid meals a day, we all want a warm bed to sleep in at night, and we all want the freedom to do what we want with our lives.

[Sir Suomi]

Only when religion interferes with others lives in a negative way, do I speak out against religion. For example, I have no problem with people believing in the Creation theory. In fact, many of my friends believe in it, somewhat due to the region I from, and also due to the fact that many of my classmates are either too unmotivated or stubborn to actually research into the subject. Yet when they flat out refuse to try and at least listen to things such as the "Big Bang Theory", or cry out in disgust and spew hatred when a homosexual couple is seen or mentioned, or even claim that I'm "going to hell" just because I have different views than them, I become extremely angry, and will not hesitate to show them the flaws in their so called "perfect religion". That's why I care personally about other people's religious beliefs, if and only when the cause harm to me or others. But as long as it does neither of those two, for all I care, you can believe in Santa Clause until your on your deathbed :D

[LouBerry]

People are rude. And no one wants to admit that they are wrong. Especially people who believe in their religion with all their heart. Honestly I'm absolutely disgusted when I hear someone mock someone else for their religion. I'm a very strong faithed Christian, but my best friend is an atheist. We obviously get along fine, because we respect each other. I don't shove bible verses down his throat and tell him he's going to Hell and all that crap, and he doesn't tell me that he thinks I'm stupid and believe in fairy tales. It's not difficult. You can debate something, or just discuss something without purposely hurting someone or trying to make them feel incompetent for having a different belief. No matter what we chose to believe, we are all people. All equals.

[Lovelife090994]

Only when religion interferes with others lives in a negative way, do I speak out against religion. For example, I have no problem with people believing in the Creation theory. In fact, many of my friends believe in it, somewhat due to the region I from, and also due to the fact that many of my classmates are either too unmotivated or stubborn to actually research into the subject. Yet when they flat out refuse to try and at least listen to things such as the "Big Bang Theory", or cry out in disgust and spew hatred when a homosexual couple is seen or mentioned, or even claim that I'm "going to hell" just because I have different views than them, I become extremely angry, and will not hesitate to show them the flaws in their so called "perfect religion". That's why I care personally about other people's religious beliefs, if and only when the cause harm to me or others. But as long as it does neither of those two, for all I care, you can believe in Santa Clause until your on your deathbed :D

That is so combative though. Wouldn't you rather make a difference and respect the person and sort out the differences without personally insulting them?

[Sir Suomi]

That is so combative though. Wouldn't you rather make a difference and respect the person and sort out the differences without personally insulting them?

I do not personally insult them. I simply explain to them why they're beliefs are flawed, and that they should not attempt to ridicule anyone different ideals. I don't do this, however, unless I am personally provoked by their actions that directly relate to their religion. As I stated, I don't care what you believe in, as long as it does not physically or mentally harm others. Becoming flustered because I made a fool out of you does not qualify as either of those two.

[Lovelife090994]

I do not personally insult them. I simply explain to them why they're beliefs are flawed, and that they should not attempt to ridicule anyone different ideals. I don't do this, however, unless I am personally provoked by their actions that directly relate to their religion. As I stated, I don't care what you believe in, as long as it does not physically or mentally harm others. Becoming flustered because I made a fool out of you does not qualify as either of those two.

Yeah, but no one deserves to be ridiculed and poked at. If you aren't going to say something nice or ask a question then don't say anything. Some people are a little crazy to anything THEY see as insulting.

[workingatperfect]

Yeah, but no one deserves to be ridiculed and poked at. If you aren't going to say something nice or ask a question then don't say anything. Some people are a little crazy to anything THEY see as insulting.

You're basically saying he shouldn't stand up for himself.

He's being "ridiculed and poked at" but the people he's referring to, not the other way around. He's putting assholes in their place, something that needs to be done.

I try to respect everyone, even if I have 0 respect for their beliefs. But just as he said, when they start using them to hurt and attack others, even when fellow non-religious people do it I will say something. But I try to do it in a neutral, respectful way. I basically will say, your religion is not absolute. Faith is a very personal, fluctuating thing. Not everyone will have the same amount of faith as you, and not in the same gods as you.

I don't see the point in attacking other religions, because I understand that the way you feel about your god, that undying faith you have in him... Somebody else has that in another god. Your faith is not stronger or more absolute than anyone else's. "I know my God is real because I have faith" or whatever, is not a valid argument because someone else feels that exact way about another God. There will never be any proof that any one religion is "correct" so why on Earth would you argue?

[darthearth]

I had to be honest and choose "mixed", like I find atheists are hopelessly chained to and rooted in the illogic of materialism, even changing the very meaning of words like "evidence" or "irrational" to suit their fancy and I have a hard time not pointing that out to them. But my question is what is meant by "respect". Can you clarify?

In general, people want to think they are right and to prove this out they attack other's beliefs. Like I said, I have a very hard time not doing it given my strong beliefs. If I feel compelled to point out illogic and expound objective non-biased views, does that make me disrespectful?

[Ace of Spades]

I've personally met plenty who outright despise religion and anyone who follows a religion. You act like there is such thing as extremist atheism when there is.

I'm assuming you meat isn't instead of is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but religious extremists are still religious people.

atheism |ˈāTHēˌizəm| noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Please define "extremist atheism." I'm not so sure if I can have an extreme lack of belief. I just have a lack of belief in a deity/god. If I were an "extreme atheist," would I have even less of a belief in a god?

Name 10 things. Go on, just name those 10 things for me so I can see what religion is, supposedly, being shoved into. Because I certainly don't see it being "shoved" into anything or onto anyone.

1. Money
2. The Pledge of Allegiance. (It was changed in the fifties to distance the U.S. from "godless" communism and the Soviet Union.)
3. Applying for being a conscientious objector
4. Politics
5. Court and trial
6. Prisons
7. The public sphere
8. Im multiple states, mostly southern, non-Christians are forbidden from holding public office
9. Taxes
10. Government inaugurations
11. Laws

If you feel so persecuted by religion, if you feel so offended and upset that someone doesn't believe what you believe in (which, ironically, a lot of religious people do), then just move away.

The United States was founded on the principles of a free and secular government with religious tolerance and liberty for all. The US was in no way founded on religion.

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
~George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

“Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
~George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
~George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by John Adams

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
~Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

“Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved … the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.”
~Thomas Jefferson: in a speech to the Virginia Baptists, 1808

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

“The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
~James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
~James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”
~James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical
Endowments

“No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
~Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731

“Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”
~Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789

“The American states have gone far in assisting the progress of truth; but they have stopped short of perfection. They ought to have given every honest citizen an equal right to enjoy his religion and an equal title to all civil emoluments, without obliging him to tell his religion. Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination, is so far slavery and bigotry.”
~Noah Webster, calling for no religious tests to serve in public office, Sketches of American Policy, 1785

“The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”
~Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787

If things went YOUR way, all religious persons wouldn't have a say in the world, right? Because what WE have to say must not matter, simply because we believe in higher powers or prophets.

Where in all of this did I that the rights of religious people should be restricted? Where did I say that what you may or may not have to say doesn't matter? Hmm? Nowhere. You have reverted to making wild and erroneous accusations.

Religious people don't throw hissy fits. It's the extremists that do. It's the extremists who want religion thrown into every aspect of life, and if that is how they want to live their life, who are YOU to tell them they can't do that?

When people live there lives in a manor in which they wish to dictate policy establish laws based upon their religion, it is the right thing to do to tell them to stop.

[Sugaree]

I'm assuming you meat isn't instead of is.

Yes, I did. Thank you for the correction.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but religious extremists are still religious people.

And by the wording of your post, you equate religious people, no matter what, to these extremists. Do you not see something wrong with this equation?

atheism |ˈāTHēˌizəm| noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Please define "extremist atheism." I'm not so sure if I can have an extreme lack of belief. I just have a lack of belief in a deity/god. If I were an "extreme atheist," would I have even less of a belief in a god?

So you don't think people like Richard Dawkins, who are the equivalent of people like Fred Phelps, who preaches that religion is nothing more than ignorance ISN'T extreme? You think it isn't extreme for an atheist to say that all religion is born out of ignorance of something, yet you would probably balk at the idea of a Catholic ever standing up for his/her beliefs if they were ever told they were "ignorant". Extremism exists on both sides, my friend; it is, nor has it ever been, a one sided issue. You either learn to face it or ignore it, and it seems you, yourself, are pretty ignorant.

1. Money
2. The Pledge of Allegiance. (It was changed in the fifties to distance the U.S. from "godless" communism and the Soviet Union.)
3. Applying for being a conscientious objector
4. Politics
5. Court and trial
6. Prisons
7. The public sphere
8. Im multiple states, mostly southern, non-Christians are forbidden from holding public office
9. Taxes
10. Government inaugurations
11. Laws[/2604861]

1. God has only been on our money for about 60 years, so for about the last half of the 20th century onwards. Try again.

2. You admitted this yourself. The pledge is also optional and not, by law, mandatory. Try again.

3. Uh, you realize that most people who apply for being conscientious objectors are usually younger priests and pastors, right? *sigh* Try. Again.

4. Ok, a somewhat valid point. There are many politicians who try to instill religious values into their campaigns and also into their policies. So this is a good point.

5. This is another good point, but I fail to see how it is "forced". No one is forcing you, in court, to make a declaration of your religious belief on the spot before you are put on trial or before you take the witness stand. You are only told to say one line, "So help me God", as a sign that you will be truthful. This is not to force religion onto you, this is to instill the fear of persecution on YOU if you lie on the witness stand. Try again.

6. Prisons? I'm not even going to bother addressing this one, because there's no way religion is pushed in the prison system. Don't even bother trying here.

7. Way too general.

8. Already known, but this is also a good point.

9. TAXES? Now I'm convinced you're pulling literally shit out of your ass at this point. Taxes don't force religion down on someone's life. I asked a specific question: What are 10 things in the United States today that show that religion is shoved into our lives? And you answer with...taxes. You can claim tax breaks if you are part of a religious organization or a multitude of other things, but how does this, specifically, force religion into the lives of a common person? You're looking for an excuse here, I think.

10. Government inaugurations are a completely different ballpark. They were originally made to be the way they were for a reason, and if we were to change those now, many people would probably not like it. Besides, what's the point of changing something as small and pointless as an inauguration ceremony? So what if a President is sworn in on a bible instead of the latest issue of a copy of Dawkins' "The God Delusion"?

[QUOTE=Ace of Spades;2604861]Where in all of this did I that the rights of religious people should be restricted? Where did I say that what you may or may not have to say doesn't matter? Hmm? Nowhere. You have reverted to making wild and erroneous accusations.

I haven't reverted to anything. However, you accused Christopher of wanting to have HIS way, which, according to your post, would have everything go towards the side of religion. How else is one to respond? By assuming that YOUR way is to simply restrict the rights of the religious so they can't have their way because you don't like that. Face it, atheists can be just as big of cry babies as Christians can.

[Lovelife090994]

I had to be honest and choose "mixed", like I find atheists are hopelessly chained to and rooted in the illogic of materialism, even changing the very meaning of words like "evidence" or "irrational" to suit their fancy and I have a hard time not pointing that out to them. But my question is what is meant by "respect". Can you clarify?

In general, people want to think they are right and to prove this out they attack other's beliefs. Like I said, I have a very hard time not doing it given my strong beliefs. If I feel compelled to point out illogic and expound objective non-biased views, does that make me disrespectful?

I mean do you respect a person despite their beliefs?

[darthearth]

I said I'm mixed. I really try to respect people's beliefs, but it's really difficult for me to be around openly theistic people. Just imagine if you had a grown man as a friend who truly believes in the easter bunny and Santa Clause. I'm not trying to offend, it's just how it makes me feel honestly, like I thought we all left this behind when we turned ten? .......I'm an atheistic wiccan (with satanist influences) and I don't as much mention any sort of details of ritual. It's a very vulnerable and emotional thing for me.

You regard theism on the same level as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause? Obviously you don't understand the logical reasons for theism, this is what the OP is getting at, saying such things out of one's ignorance to another who knows more than you is rude. It would be the same as someone making fun of an "atheistic Wiccan (with satanist influences)" without taking the time to understand what it is. Don't you think?

I mean do you respect a person despite their beliefs?

Well then, I guess so. But I don't respect rudeness, which many atheists seem to have bountifully.

[World Eater]

Eh. I'm interested in a lot of religions...I just don't care about believing or practicing in any of them tho. I'll respect the religion. The adherents to the religion(s)? Depends on how they act. Being from the south, I've had to deal with a lot of people (including family) who like to put Christianity above other religions....it takes every fiber of my being not to get pissed. So yeah.

[Syvelocin]

You regard theism on the same level as the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause? Obviously you don't understand the logical reasons for theism, this is what the OP is getting at, saying such things out of one's ignorance to another who knows more than you is rude. It would be the same as someone making fun of an "atheistic Wiccan (with satanist influences)" without taking the time to understand what it is. Don't you think?


Well, obviously there's reasons for theism. I've heard my mum's and a couple of my friends' rather interesting reasons for still believing in a god. It's conflicting for me to believe in something with no reason to. The most common one I hear is the coping mechanism. I developed a rather different coping mechanism even before I stopped going to church that rendered Christianity pretty useless for me. I don't mean it so much as an insult than a description. There isn't really anything I can think of that is closer to relate it to; religion is typically related to most things people put their faith into, whether directly or indirectly. Ghosts is another one, but that one can be influenced by religion like I said. I was raised Catholic; it isn't like I'm a stranger to Christianity. My relationship with Christianity is completely different from most Christians' relationship to neo-paganism. I've seen it from the inside and I made a decision. People can make fun of my spirituality all they like, that isn't my problem, because I don't need verification when I don't have any beliefs.

[Kronos]

I respect people with religion, if they show the same courtesy to me (which they rarely do).

[darthearth]

Well, obviously there's reasons for theism. I've heard my mum's and a couple of my friends' rather interesting reasons for still believing in a god. It's conflicting for me to believe in something with no reason to. The most common one I hear is the coping mechanism. I developed a rather different coping mechanism even before I stopped going to church that rendered Christianity pretty useless for me. I don't mean it so much as an insult than a description. There isn't really anything I can think of that is closer to relate it to; religion is typically related to most things people put their faith into, whether directly or indirectly. Ghosts is another one, but that one can be influenced by religion like I said. I was raised Catholic; it isn't like I'm a stranger to Christianity. My relationship with Christianity is completely different from most Christians' relationship to neo-paganism. I've seen it from the inside and I made a decision. People can make fun of my spirituality all they like, that isn't my problem, because I don't need verification when I don't have any beliefs.

Well, I'll just say not all of us are theists because of reasons like "coping mechanisms". I am a theist because I think it is the most reasonable position given our reality. Things like needing a transcendent cause to a physical universe, existence of phenomenal consciousness, facts regarding the resurrection of Jesus, personal spiritual experiences I have had and more. Far from believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. I'm not "afraid" of death either, if I didn't care that I wasn't around in the year 1000 A.D., then why would I care in the year 3000 A.D.? Everything from old testament prophecies being fulfilled to the evolution of life makes the most sense in the context of theism (I currently feel God-guided evolution is the most reasonable stance to have right now, until science can prove otherwise). I'm an evolutionary creationist, and proud of this objective stance without materialism bias.

Just thought I would mention.

[Stronk Serb]

I respect people with religion, if they show the same courtesy to me (which they rarely do).

Pretty much what I do.

[tovaris]

Quite simply. Because they ARE bothering me personaly. And my ansesters.

[Lovelife090994]

Quite simply. Because they ARE bothering me personaly. And my ansesters.

Who is the They?

[tovaris]

Who is the They?

Religious folk. For example chatolics, (and their white guard armies)

[Lovelife090994]

Religious folk. For example chatolics, (and their white guard armies)

I think you mean Catholics, and are you referring to the Pope's Army or th clergy? I wouldn't call them an army. So many people are Catholic, not all are the same.

[Stronk Serb]

Who is the They?

Maticek already answered, but it's not a local problem. The Orthodox Church here went that far to organize violent attacks on the gay pride parade about a decade ago. You have so many fanatics here who just hate you because you are different. You have some vladikas (bishops) molesting children and not answering for that, and you have corrupt monks owning and driving newest high-end cars. I mean about 175 thousand dollars. 99.9 percent was donated by the believers, so that the church could prosper, not to buy luxury. The only thing more corrupt then our politicians and law enforcement is the Church.

[Lovelife090994]

Maticek already answered, but it's not a local problem. The Orthodox Church here went that far to organize violent attacks on the gay pride parade about a decade ago. You have so many fanatics here who just hate you because you are different. You have some vladikas (bishops) molesting children and not answering for that, and you have corrupt monks owning and driving newest high-end cars. I mean about 175 thousand dollars. 99.9 percent was donated by the believers, so that the church could prosper, not to buy luxury. The only thing more corrupt then our politicians and law enforcement is the Church.

I ws asking him. The statement the "they" was in was ambiguious.

[Lovelife090994]

Maticek already answered, but it's not a local problem. The Orthodox Church here went that far to organize violent attacks on the gay pride parade about a decade ago. You have so many fanatics here who just hate you because you are different. You have some vladikas (bishops) molesting children and not answering for that, and you have corrupt monks owning and driving newest high-end cars. I mean about 175 thousand dollars. 99.9 percent was donated by the believers, so that the church could prosper, not to buy luxury. The only thing more corrupt then our politicians and law enforcement is the Church.


Corruption is in everything. The acts of few do not speak for the entire faith, nor do the bad acts mar the whole message.

[tovaris]

I think you mean Catholics, and are you referring to the Pope's Army or th clergy? I wouldn't call them an army. So many people are Catholic, not all are the same.

Th white guard is a term originating from the october revolution, ans refers to the tratores army loial to the car (they wore white uniformes), since white is the political colour of the rightists (exepte those who stay even futher to theright and prefere the colours of brown and black), the term spread to other forces of evil that fly the whita flag of the old world and hypocritical morals. The white guard is in my aations case the catholic trators called the domobrans and sided with the enamie, nowerdays this term referes to their sucsesors.
(Do not confuze white guard with the blue guard, even thow they were both evil)

Have you read aboit the masive protestslast year in my cyty? Pecefull protesters were desrupted by white favoring extremists, who frew granite blocks at the police and the protesters(shouting something about those protests being a sinn againced god or something similare like that), and executed their atacs in strict military fassion. So yes tiey ARE an army.

Man has this drifted off topic.

Anywhoo....

They ARE trying to make me and they ARE agresive (at thyr core), that is why i care about their evil deeds.

[Lovelife090994]

Th white guard is a term originating from the october revolution, ans refers to the tratores army loial to the car (they wore white uniformes), since white is the political colour of the rightists (exepte those who stay even futher to theright and prefere the colours of brown and black), the term spread to other forces of evil that fly the whita flag of the old world and hypocritical morals. The white guard is in my aations case the catholic trators called the domobrans and sided with the enamie, nowerdays this term referes to their sucsesors.
(Do not confuze white guard with the blue guard, even thow they were both evil)

Have you read aboit the masive protestslast year in my cyty? Pecefull protesters were desrupted by white favoring extremists, who frew granite blocks at the police and the protesters(shouting something about those protests being a sinn againced god or something similare like that), and executed their atacs in strict military fassion. So yes tiey ARE an army.

Man has this drifted off topic.

Anywhoo....

They ARE trying to make me and they ARE agresive (at thyr core), that is why i care about their evil deeds.

Next time, slow down when you type, this is barely in English. Secondly, I shall look up this White Guard, but I have no clue what you are talking about, nor do I know who you have a grudge to other than the White Guard. So it is not to do with the clergy?

[tovaris]

Next time, slow down when you type, this is barely in English. Secondly, I shall look up this White Guard, but I have no clue what you are talking about, nor do I know who you have a grudge to other than the White Guard. So it is not to do with the clergy?

Read my signature please:

If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.
It eint that esy to tipe on a screen you know...

I was merly explaning you the terminologi used, you seemed confuzed.

Please reread the entire post again thow... moght help.

[Lovelife090994]

Read my signature please:

If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.
It eint that esy to tipe on a screen you know...

I was merly explaning you the terminologi used, you seemed confuzed.

Please reread the entire post again thow... moght help.

I just did reread. Although it's off topic to my question. Do you respect others' beliefs and do you respect someone regardless of their faith?

[tovaris]

I just did reread. Although it's off topic to my question. Do you respect others' beliefs and do you respect someone regardless of their faith?

I realy dont care wht goes one in their heads, as soon as it starte leaking oit.... than we have a problem

[Sugaree]

I realy dont care wht goes one in their heads, as soon as it starte leaking oit.... than we have a problem

So, in other words, believe what you want, just shut up about it? Not exactly a great view to have. The point of any ideology is to spread the word of it and its creator. So you just want religious people to keep quiet about their views whenever they're asked what they believe in? Because, lord forbid, they EVER start talking about all of that "nonsense".

[Lovelife090994]

I realy dont care wht goes one in their heads, as soon as it starte leaking oit.... than we have a problem

Please slow down typing, your grammar is spelling is horrendous. This view is fair for you to have but incredibly insensitive to the rest of the world. So, have a religious but never mention it? Why? Religion is based upon ideology be it good or bad and can be shared. All religions have a history and you can at least try and learn that to relate to the ideology. No, you don't have to follow the faith, but don't stop the people from spreading it.

[xandyx]

I said Im mixed because to be honest there are crazy people in my religion but every religion really.

I'm Christian but I try to respect everyones beliefs because maybe God just has a bunch of different names. As long as other religion people don't mess with me I won't with them.

[tovaris]

Please slow down typing, your grammar is spelling is horrendous. This view is fair for you to have but incredibly insensitive to the rest of the world. So, have a religious but never mention it? Why? Religion is based upon ideology be it good or bad and can be shared. All religions have a history and you can at least try and learn that to relate to the ideology. No, you don't have to follow the faith, but don't stop the people from spreading it.

So, in other words, believe what you want, just shut up about it? Not exactly a great view to have. The point of any ideology is to spread the word of it and its creator. So you just want religious people to keep quiet about their views whenever they're asked what they believe in? Because, lord forbid, they EVER start talking about all of that "nonsense".


To answer that question we must ask ourselves how does a religion spread. It spreads by violence, by arms, by killing or enslaveing anyone who aposes them and by highjacking childrens minds!
Ofcors i will try everething in my power to at leest inhibit the spread of religious violence, i dont care if the talk to other people abouttheir delusions, but dont SHOOT me please!

And also note that gramer and spelling are two diferent things, one has to do with the make up of words the other with their arangement in a sentence.
If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.

[Sugaree]

To answer that question we must ask ourselves how does a religion spread. It spreads by violence, by arms, by killing or enslaveing anyone who aposes them and by highjacking childrens minds!
Ofcors i will try everething in my power to at leest inhibit the spread of religious violence, i dont care if the talk to other people abouttheir delusions, but dont SHOOT me please!

My God, you are brainwashed. If you think the only way religion spreads is through violence...I have no hope for you in the real world.

[Lovelife090994]

To answer that question we must ask ourselves how does a religion spread. It spreads by violence, by arms, by killing or enslaveing anyone who aposes them and by highjacking childrens minds!
Ofcors i will try everething in my power to at leest inhibit the spread of religious violence, i dont care if the talk to other people abouttheir delusions, but dont SHOOT me please!

And also note that gramer and spelling are two diferent things, one has to do with the make up of words the other with their arangement in a sentence.
If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.

Hmm, you do realise that not all religions spread by violence right? Christianity and Buddhism are both spread by peace and by choice. No one is forcing you to have a religion.

[tovaris]

My God, you are brainwashed. If you think the only way religion spreads is through violence...I have no hope for you in the real world.

Its hysterical fact.
oh and Just by the way. I am a baptized catholic.

Hmm, you do realise that not all religions spread by violence right? Christianity and Buddhism are both spread by peace and by choice. No one is forcing you to have a religion.

I was talking about Christianity... Don't forget the Buddhist-konfutionist wars in china.

[Sugaree]

Don't forget the Buddhist-konfutionist wars in china.

Excuse me, but my religion had no part in that so called "war". That was a persecution on my religion, and many others, by the Confucianist emperor Wuzong. It was all over economic, social, and religious reasons which I will not go into. But to accuse my religion of being part of a "war" which we never fought in is an outright lie. Buddhists never fought back; we are taught not to fight back with our fists, but with love and tolerance. As a result, we were pretty much driven out of China. Again, this wasn't a "war", this was flat out persecution on the part of Emperor Wuzong.

[tovaris]

Excuse me, but my religion had no part in that so called "war". That was a persecution on my religion, and many others, by the Confucianist emperor Wuzong. It was all over economic, social, and religious reasons which I will not go into. But to accuse my religion of being part of a "war" which we never fought in is an outright lie. Buddhists never fought back; we are taught not to fight back with our fists, but with love and tolerance. As a result, we were pretty much driven out of China. Again, this wasn't a "war", this was flat out persecution on the part of Emperor Wuzong.

Man I like biting these bates jum.

You really think they didn't fight back... Interesting...
Besides nether is a true religion more of a philosophie, no deity no shrine right...

And we have forgotten everything else posted but the few wards referring to some Buddhist in china... Interesting...

[Sugaree]

Man I like biting these bates jum.

You really think they didn't fight back... Interesting...
Besides nether is a true religion more of a philosophie, no deity no shrine right...

And we have forgotten everything else posted but the few wards referring to some Buddhist in china... Interesting...

You still don't get it, do you? We Buddhists didn't start anything. We didn't fight back in conventional means. Of course you don't think anything is a true religion unless there's a deity involved. Why does a deity have to be involved? Can one not believe that God is all and all is God? Buddhists also have shrines. So yes, that DOES make it a religion for there ARE places of worship.

And I have no idea what you mean by the last line. Can you clarify?

[PinkFloyd]

I said mixed because look at the beliefs of extremists such as the Westboro Baptist Church. I will never ever respect their beliefs.

There are also certain beliefs that I think are just insane. How about the people that believe the Earth is flat? That's just batshit crazy.

[tovaris]

You still don't get it, do you? We Buddhists didn't start anything. We didn't fight back in conventional means. Of course you don't think anything is a true religion unless there's a deity involved. Why does a deity have to be involved? Can one not believe that God is all and all is God? Buddhists also have shrines. So yes, that DOES make it a religion for there ARE places of worship.

And I have no idea what you mean by the last line. Can you clarify?


Having a diety only makes the delusion more obvious, budism can be defined more as a way of life rather than a religion for this wery fact that it only borders religion by conventional defenition. And as far as i am awere it does not require shrimes to function while other religions do,

-edited. -Emerald Dream

[Emerald Dream]

Please stay on-topic and refrain from personal comments and attacks.