The idea of a heaven

[cherylcherylX2]

As an atheist, I've always wondered about how a concept like 'heaven' would work. Many religions describe it as a paradise where you will have eternal life, but how long can it be a paradise? Wouldn't living forever, even in a paradise eventually become a form of torture and pain?

When my dad told me about heaven when I was a kid, the first thing I asked was, "Are there computers and the internet there?" and I think the reason I asked that was because I thought that Heaven must be pretty boring if all you did was sit on clouds and play harps.

Now that I've grown older however, I realised that an eternity of anything would eventually be torturous, and I am consoled by the idea of an end point, in this case, death.

I was just wondering what your guys viewpoints on this matter of eternal paradise turning into eternal torture is, and whether you agree with it or not, thanks! :)

[Harry Smith]

It's a scam to get you to follow the teachings and in turn be under the control of said religion, its one of the tell tell signs of a cult- if you do X then we'll reward you with Y ( where Y is something unreachable/unbelievable)

[tovaris]

The idea of haven is suposed to keep the medival pesent happy that he is suffering.

[britishboy]

Definitely I nice idea, but I doubt it's existence

[Moth]

Well when you say "An eternity of paradise" I would think it means your own personal idea of paradise, if you are 100% happy all of the time, it would suggest you aren't and won't be doing something that would cause upset or conflict. Thus there being no evolution from Paradise to Torture.

As long as my respect is returned I think any topic about religion should be approached with an understanding and open mind because you are dealing with another person's belief and you are in no right to question someone's faith and ridicule them for it.

[Human]

Even the bible itself disputes whether there is actually a heaven or not, there are contradictions within the bible. I don't believe in a heaven or anything like that.

[Left Now]

I personally believe,heaven is a place where sadness doesn't exist,and desires are tamed.

[Jess]

It's a scam to get you to follow the teachings and in turn be under the control of said religion, its one of the tell tell signs of a cult- if you do X then we'll reward you with Y ( where Y is something unreachable/unbelievable)

This.

The idea of a heaven is ridiculous. Once you die, you die. You don't go anywhere. There is no heaven or hell.

[sqishy]

As an atheist, I've always wondered about how a concept like 'heaven' would work. Many religions describe it as a paradise where you will have eternal life, but how long can it be a paradise? Wouldn't living forever, even in a paradise eventually become a form of torture and pain?

When my dad told me about heaven when I was a kid, the first thing I asked was, "Are there computers and the internet there?" and I think the reason I asked that was because I thought that Heaven must be pretty boring if all you did was sit on clouds and play harps.

Now that I've grown older however, I realised that an eternity of anything would eventually be torturous, and I am consoled by the idea of an end point, in this case, death.

I was just wondering what your guys viewpoints on this matter of eternal paradise turning into eternal torture is, and whether you agree with it or not, thanks! :)

I think an eternal state of something is a paradox, like the Utopia paradox. But if a heaven does exist, then it could be wayy different than we think, so maybe not.
But I believe in constant change, not reaching an end that lasts forever.

[Lovelife090994]

It's a scam to get you to follow the teachings and in turn be under the control of said religion, its one of the tell tell signs of a cult- if you do X then we'll reward you with Y ( where Y is something unreachable/unbelievable)

The idea of haven is suposed to keep the medival pesent happy that he is suffering.

Definitely I nice idea, but I doubt it's existence

As an atheist, I've always wondered about how a concept like 'heaven' would work. Many religions describe it as a paradise where you will have eternal life, but how long can it be a paradise? Wouldn't living forever, even in a paradise eventually become a form of torture and pain?

When my dad told me about heaven when I was a kid, the first thing I asked was, "Are there computers and the internet there?" and I think the reason I asked that was because I thought that Heaven must be pretty boring if all you did was sit on clouds and play harps.

Now that I've grown older however, I realised that an eternity of anything would eventually be torturous, and I am consoled by the idea of an end point, in this case, death.

I was just wondering what your guys viewpoints on this matter of eternal paradise turning into eternal torture is, and whether you agree with it or not, thanks! :)

This.

The idea of a heaven is ridiculous. Once you die, you die. You don't go anywhere. There is no heaven or hell.

I think an eternal state of something is a paradox, like the Utopia paradox. But if a heaven does exist, then it could be wayy different than we think, so maybe not.
But I believe in constant change, not reaching an end that lasts forever.

I fail to see why most of you emit such hostility or misunderstanding when the OP asked a legitimate question. Heaven, a great paradox in the feeble eyes of men, Heaven is complex, ayone can make it, but it up to them. No one has a Heaven or Hell to put you in. Whether or not you believe in it or not is your prerogative. Heaven is a place of peace, no strife, no pain, a place for anyone willing to believe and love God unconditionally as h does us can go, where forgiveness is supreme to self-preservation. Am I daft? No. Many religions have an idea of Heaven, many have criteria.

Heaven is not meant to be on Earth, it transcends Earth and time. I just recently lost an uncle and despite all who hurt him for him making mistakes I know he loved the lord, he'd go to church and pray harder than any of us despite the hardship and tribulations, and after seeing him in a box to be cremated I believe he went to Heaven, he was at peace. God called him home. That is what Heaven is, home. No one is meant to live in pain and fear, that is not what life is. Life has ups and downs, life is short, live as you want, but know Heaven is waiting, not as a perk but as a home. Ideal, yes, but maybe that is my idealistic ways speaking, but I will not let others defame a belief they misunderstand.

Any religion is odd to those outside of it, Heaven exists, simply not believing in something does not make it any less real or even at times more real.

Did that answer it for you all?

[sqishy]

I fail to see most of you emit such hostility or misunderstanding when the OP asked a legitimate question. Heaven, a great paradox in the feeble eyes of men, Heaven is complex, ayone can make it, but it up to them. No one has a Heaven or Hell to put you in. Whether or not you believe in it or not is your prerogative. Heaven is a place of peace, no strife, no pain, a place for anyone willing to believe and love God unconditionally as h does us can go, where forgiveness is supreme to self-preservation. Am I daft? No. Many religions have an idea of Heaven, many have criteria.

Heaven is not meant to be on Earth, it transcends Earth and time. I just recently lost an uncle and despite all who hurt him for him making mistakes I know he loved the lord, he'd go to church and pray harder than any of us despite the hardship and tribulations, and after seeing him in a box to be cremated I believe he went to Heaven, he was at peace. God called him home. That is what Heaven is, home. No one is meant to live in pain and fear, that is not what life is. Life has ups and downs, life is short, live as you want, but know Heaven is waiting, not as a perk but as a home. Ideal, yes, but maybe that is my idealistic ways speaking, but I will not let others defame a belief they misunderstand.

Any religion is odd to those outside of it, Heaven exists, simply not believing in something does not make it any less real or even at times more real.

Did that answer it for you all?

I did say that heaven could be much more different than we think. I personally don't believe in a 'real' heaven, but anything is possible and everything is relative. I never put absolute fixed opinions on things, ever. I never intended to be hostile.

[Harry Smith]

, Heaven exists,

I'm sorry didn't the Bible and religion always claim that heaven was in the Sky above us yet when man went into space it conveniently wasn't there, that's because heaven exists in your head. The idea of some mythical land of honey and gold is just laughable.

If your parents told you there was a magic land at the end of your garden where you would go if you finished your school work you'd think they're fucking stupid, can't you see how gullible you have to believe in this magical mystery land.

If heaven did exist surely couldn't God just put us their in the beginning so we didn't have to go through this extremely depressing half life?

[Lovelife090994]

I'm sorry didn't the Bible and religion always claim that heaven was in the Sky above us yet when man went into space it conveniently wasn't there, that's because heaven exists in your head. The idea of some mythical land of honey and gold is just laughable.

If your parents told you there was a magic land at the end of your garden where you would go if you finished your school work you'd think they're fucking stupid, can't you see how gullible you have to believe in this magical mystery land.

If heaven did exist surely couldn't God just put us their in the beginning so we didn't have to go through this extremely depressing half life?

Life is like a test, and the moment you start to argue I will ignore you. A magic land vs Heaven, Heaven is magical but it does exist. Can you start asking rather than insulting?

[conniption]

Life is like a test
^^^
Life is like a test. Natural selection will be your pop quiz, as it'll ensure only the strong survive and eventually, you'll get your report back. This is where it sucks, you'll realize you got a big fat D- on your test, D for death, of course. Life is heaven, and it's hell too. Nobody wins, nobody loses. We'll all end up dead, but the fact that you even got to live is truly a miracle in itself.

Heaven was created for the weak. When peasants worked long hours, only to be treated poorly by those above them. The idea of Heaven was their motivation and possibly their only (seemingly) achievable goal in life. The idea caught on and here we are today, debating the idea of Heaven over the Internet thousands of miles apart on a forum.


P.S I don't mean to offend whoever I quoted, but it's my uncensored opinion and I wasn't going to roll it in sugar, drizzle it with chocolate, and serve it to you on a plate. Life sucks, life rules, that's life.

[satarra3180]

As an atheist, I've always wondered about how a concept like 'heaven' would work. Many religions describe it as a paradise where you will have eternal life, but how long can it be a paradise? Wouldn't living forever, even in a paradise eventually become a form of torture and pain?

When my dad told me about heaven when I was a kid, the first thing I asked was, "Are there computers and the internet there?" and I think the reason I asked that was because I thought that Heaven must be pretty boring if all you did was sit on clouds and play harps.

Now that I've grown older however, I realised that an eternity of anything would eventually be torturous, and I am consoled by the idea of an end point, in this case, death.

I was just wondering what your guys viewpoints on this matter of eternal paradise turning into eternal torture is, and whether you agree with it or not, thanks! :)

I dont know if I believe a heaven exists but if it means "eternal life" I feel like it would be a different type of "life" and a different kind of eternity. I feel like we are bound by thinking about life only as we know it.

[Ifxzzy]

As an atheist, I've always wondered about how a concept like 'heaven' would work. Many religions describe it as a paradise where you will have eternal life, but how long can it be a paradise? Wouldn't living forever, even in a paradise eventually become a form of torture and pain?

When my dad told me about heaven when I was a kid, the first thing I asked was, "Are there computers and the internet there?" and I think the reason I asked that was because I thought that Heaven must be pretty boring if all you did was sit on clouds and play harps.

Now that I've grown older however, I realised that an eternity of anything would eventually be torturous, and I am consoled by the idea of an end point, in this case, death.

I was just wondering what your guys viewpoints on this matter of eternal paradise turning into eternal torture is, and whether you agree with it or not, thanks! :)

I don't believe in god or satan but I do have my own version of hell and heaven

[Lovelife090994]

^^^
Life is like a test. Natural selection will be your pop quiz, as it'll ensure only the strong survive and eventually, you'll get your report back. This is where it sucks, you'll realize you got a big fat D- on your test, D for death, of course. Life is heaven, and it's hell too. Nobody wins, nobody loses. We'll all end up dead, but the fact that you even got to live is truly a miracle in itself.

Heaven was created for the weak. When peasants worked long hours, only to be treated poorly by those above them. The idea of Heaven was their motivation and possibly their only (seemingly) achievable goal in life. The idea caught on and here we are today, debating the idea of Heaven over the Internet thousands of miles apart on a forum.


P.S I don't mean to offend whoever I quoted, but it's my uncensored opinion and I wasn't going to roll it in sugar, drizzle it with chocolate, and serve it to you on a plate. Life sucks, life rules, that's life.


Can you answer me this? How is Heaven for the weak?

[conniption]

Can you answer me this? How is Heaven for the weak?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean weak as in people are cowards, I meant weak as in they held no significant position in society and therefore, had little to no rights. Religion, in general, gives people a sense of hope and belonging in an otherwise not-so-great world. It's no coincidence that less developed countries are significantly more religious than developed countries.

[Lovelife090994]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean weak as in people are cowards, I meant weak as in they held no significant position in society and therefore, had little to no rights. Religion, in general, gives people a sense of hope and belonging in an otherwise not-so-great world. It's no coincidence that less developed countries are significantly more religious than developed countries.

Do you honestly think that is necessarily a bad thing to religious? A role in society? Technically I will never hold a role in society, I plan to be an architect and like anyone at the end of the day I am just a human. And like all, I have some who will hate me no matter what. Religion, such a broad word by its meaning, I see it as varied, okay to have, and different across the world.

[conniption]

Do you honestly think that is necessarily a bad thing to religious? A role in society? Technically I will never hold a role in society, I plan to be an architect and like anyone at the end of the day I am just a human. And like all, I have some who will hate me no matter what. Religion, such a broad word by its meaning, I see it as varied, okay to have, and different across the world.

Gosh, this is very difficult to explain. I don't want to say it's bad to be religious, because I know great people that are religious, but religion really is a huge burden on society. Religion tends to spill over into places it doesn't belong at all, like the government. I honestly feel that religion hinders the progress of society and human kind as a whole. But, this is a completely different debate than what the OP asked about.

[Lovelife090994]

Gosh, this is very difficult to explain. I don't want to say it's bad to be religious, because I know great people that are religious, but religion really is a huge burden on society. Religion tends to spill over into places it doesn't belong at all, like the government. I honestly feel that religion hinders the progress of society and human kind as a whole. But, this is a completely different debate than what the OP asked about.

There have been examples of non-religious governments and they have not all worked out. Plus many who are atheist or non-religious have a very condescending view of the religious. Religion can belong anywhere, no one has the right to say where it does or doesn't belong.

[conniption]

There have been examples of non-religious governments and they have not all worked out. Plus many who are atheist or non-religious have a very condescending view of the religious. Religion can belong anywhere, no one has the right to say where it does or doesn't belong.

Yes, but there are plenty more examples of secular countries that are fairing way better than religious countries. Secular countries consistently have less crime, less teen pregnancy, and more equality. The same could be said about religious people shunning anyone that doesn't hold the same beliefs they do, this is the problem with religion. Why is it that "immoral" things like same sex marriage and abortion are more likely to be illegal in religious countries? Religion has no place in the government, yet it always seems to be present anyway.

[Lovelife090994]

Yes, but there are plenty more examples of secular countries that are fairing way better than religious countries. Secular countries consistently have less crime, less teen pregnancy, and more equality. The same could be said about religious people shunning anyone that doesn't hold the same beliefs they do, this is the problem with religion. Why is it that "immoral" things like same sex marriage and abortion are more likely to be illegal in religious countries? Religion has no place in the government, yet it always seems to be present anyway.

You are going into whole other situations. Did I condone the negative acts of religions and the religious? No. Same-sex marriage, and abortion are very touchy, I myself disagree with both and I can say first hand that it's secular and religious supporters are usually very nasty to those who disagree with them. It's a double-edged sword.

Saying religion has no place in the government or governments is an opinion, a statement yes but an opinion. Secular countries may be better economically but not by morale. The poor have nothing, these are countries that may have secular governments but they are poor and with nothing you need hope, ergo religion comes in. You cannot blame the religion for the country's lack in prowess.

[conniption]

You are going into whole other situations. Did I condone the negative acts of religions and the religious? No. Same-sex marriage, and abortion are very touchy, I myself disagree with both and I can say first hand that it's secular and religious supporters are usually very nasty to those who disagree with them. It's a double-edged sword.

Saying religion has no place in the government or governments is an opinion, a statement yes but an opinion. Secular countries may be better economically but not by morale. The poor have nothing, these are countries that may have secular governments but they are poor and with nothing you need hope, ergo religion comes in. You cannot blame the religion for the country's lack in prowess.

See, I don't think you're really getting what I'm saying. I didn't think you were condoning anything. It was a counter example to your statement that religion can have a place anywhere. If anywhere means any place, except the government, then yes, I agree. I can assure you that secular countries have are doing great. Secular countries are some of the happiest countries in the world, they have better quality of life, better education, less crime, and less poverty. Lets take all of these things away from them then, at least then they'll have hope and religion, who needs food anyway, right?

[Lovelife090994]

See, I don't think you're really getting what I'm saying. I didn't think you were condoning anything. It was a counter example to your statement that religion can have a place anywhere. If anywhere means any place, except the government, then yes, I agree. I can assure you that secular countries have are doing great. Secular countries are some of the happiest countries in the world, they have better quality of life, better education, less crime, and less poverty. Lets take all of these things away from them then, at least then they'll have hope and religion, who needs food anyway, right?

Of course they need food. You failed to see my point. You seem to equate failure to religion, bad countries or poor countries to religious countries.

[cherylcherylX2]

Um, let's not get off track here. You guys seemed to have misunderstood my question. To clarify myself, I was wondering why people that believe in a Heaven don't believe it would eventually turn into Hell.

Simply, picture your favourite activity, e.g. shopping now imagine shopping for all eternity. You'd enjoy it for a long time, but eventually you would hate it and it'd become a kind of torture.

And if you say that Heaven offers ALL your favourite activities, then what happens once you get sick of EVERYTHING? You have all eternity to do so, right? Eventually your personal paradise will be your personal hell, even if you only do the things you love.

[Pseudogeek]

This.

The idea of a heaven is ridiculous. Once you die, you die. You don't go anywhere. There is no heaven or hell.

Speaking from personal experience or an educated guess?

Um, let's not get off track here. You guys seemed to have misunderstood my question. To clarify myself, I was wondering why people that believe in a Heaven don't believe it would eventually turn into Hell.

Simply, picture your favourite activity, e.g. shopping now imagine shopping for all eternity. You'd enjoy it for a long time, but eventually you would hate it and it'd become a kind of torture.

And if you say that Heaven offers ALL your favourite activities, then what happens once you get sick of EVERYTHING? You have all eternity to do so, right? Eventually your personal paradise will be your personal hell, even if you only do the things you love.

What if the activities morph with how you change? If its perfect then 1) we can't really picture or understand it and 2) it'll work in ways unknown to us


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[darthearth]

I see what you are saying. In fact, I asked my Mom about the very same thing earlier this year, she believes that we are fundamentally changed such that we will never tire, like the angels in Heaven. However, I believe there are innumerable worlds people can be put in. We will not know the details until we live it. But I do know heaven exists ("know" meaning I believe it like I believe the sky is blue, absolutely no doubt whatsoever), this heaven is the traditional heaven people think of, but eventually we move on to other worlds. All will eventually know, including the atheists, that existence continues after their body's physical death. I will note some Christians think atheists will cease existence after Hell, and they will not advance to other worlds (personally I don't know what happens to them, it's up to God, perhaps even Hitchens repented and is singing with the angels right now).

[Fanta_Lover44]

Well, i'm not born into a religious background but I do believe that heaven is a paradise waiting for me. I'll work towards it. You carry on believing what you guys want as long as it doesn't offend anyone. I respect all of your opinions though.

[Jess]

Um, let's not get off track here. You guys seemed to have misunderstood my question. To clarify myself, I was wondering why people that believe in a Heaven don't believe it would eventually turn into Hell.

Simply, picture your favourite activity, e.g. shopping now imagine shopping for all eternity. You'd enjoy it for a long time, but eventually you would hate it and it'd become a kind of torture.

And if you say that Heaven offers ALL your favourite activities, then what happens once you get sick of EVERYTHING? You have all eternity to do so, right? Eventually your personal paradise will be your personal hell, even if you only do the things you love.

If that is the case, then I agree it'll turn into a hell.

[Left Now]

Um, let's not get off track here. You guys seemed to have misunderstood my question. To clarify myself, I was wondering why people that believe in a Heaven don't believe it would eventually turn into Hell.

Simply, picture your favourite activity, e.g. shopping now imagine shopping for all eternity. You'd enjoy it for a long time, but eventually you would hate it and it'd become a kind of torture.

And if you say that Heaven offers ALL your favourite activities, then what happens once you get sick of EVERYTHING? You have all eternity to do so, right? Eventually your personal paradise will be your personal hell, even if you only do the things you love.

Heaven is not as simple as this world which you think that it is a paradise which you can do all your favorite things in this world in it.IT IS STH OUT OF IMAGINATION AND DESCRIBING.This is why religions do not talk about it too much.Most of the principals of most of the religions are about to be good in this world and leave the afterlife to the God.

[Celtic.]

well actually (my parents are Jehovah witnesses) in my parents religion they believe once you die....You die. There is no hell. Hell is the grave. But only a select 144,000 go to heaven. They will rule in the heavens when Armageddon comes

[The Trendy Wolf]

Well when you say "An eternity of paradise" I would think it means your own personal idea of paradise, if you are 100% happy all of the time, it would suggest you aren't and won't be doing something that would cause upset or conflict. Thus there being no evolution from Paradise to Torture.

As long as my respect is returned I think any topic about religion should be approached with an understanding and open mind because you are dealing with another person's belief and you are in no right to question someone's faith and ridicule them for it.

He did, in fact, approach this with an open mind. I also approached it with curiosity and I was subject to change.

Eternal paradise is equivalent to getting whatever you want, when you want it, how you want it, etc. I find it incredible that people do not see the problem with this, as the Christian faith is supposed to be a "giving" religion, and not a receiving one. It is as if Christianity is the equivalent of saying "If you give and be good in your mortal life (which people cannot achieve throughout their entire lives) then you will live your immortal life receiving everything you could ask for."

Back to the question at hand: I believe that in Heaven, being an Atheist myself, you are immortal, and you don't possess the same feelings that a mere mortal would be subject to feeling throughout the day, with boredom as an example. I don't believe that it would be possible for you to become bored as a result of this eternal paradise, but if you were a mortal in Heaven, then it would certainly be possible eventually.

[Moth]

He did, in fact, approach this with an open mind. I also approached it with curiosity and I was subject to change.

Eternal paradise is equivalent to getting whatever you want, when you want it, how you want it, etc. I find it incredible that people do not see the problem with this, as the Christian faith is supposed to be a "giving" religion, and not a receiving one. It is as if Christianity is the equivalent of saying "If you give and be good in your mortal life (which people cannot achieve throughout their entire lives) then you will live your immortal life receiving everything you could ask for."

Back to the question at hand: I believe that in Heaven, being an Atheist myself, you are immortal, and you don't possess the same feelings that a mere mortal would be subject to feeling throughout the day, with boredom as an example. I don't believe that it would be possible for you to become bored as a result of this eternal paradise, but if you were a mortal in Heaven, then it would certainly be possible eventually.

You misunderstand, my second point was more of a statement. Just my idea on how you should approach any topic within religion.
Coming from a Catholic family and school I was told life is more of a test, a temporary life to judge you on whether you are good so I don't think it's relevant to say "oh but Christianity is a religion about giving" And also to your point about it not being possible to be good for your entire life - That's what confession is for :P
I like to think I'm an atheist but who doesn't secretly wish for an after life eh?

[Amsey]

I believe in heaven, it helps me cope with my life in the belief I will one day see my mum again, I think it's wrong to judge some one for believing because its called belief for a reason I say, some believe while others don't but its like judging someone for believing in ghosts or karma... That's my opinion anyways :)

[Mikedamaniak]

I personally believe,heaven is a place where sadness doesn't exist,and desires are tamed.

Exactly, I think that's what the idea it is. Christianity preaches fighting our desires, which shaped western culture. If it weren't for Christianity, we'd all be a bunch of hooligans now. The idea is that you have until you die to get rid of all your desires, because if the spirit still has desires after death, and is not attached to a body to use to fulfill them, then the spirit becomes very sad, which is hell.
This seems to make a lot of sense, which is why Christianity became so popular among those who lived where it was known about.