Does Christianity as an overall net positive impact on society?

[Walter Powers]

So I was talking with some of my very "progressive" friends and the topic of religion came up. They slandered it, specifically Christianity, and pretty much said that we'd be better off without it. I think that's ridiculous. Christianity gives people morals (not that you can't be moral without religion), and it helps people. And I mean, the proof is in the product. America was founded on Christian principles, and in my experience, Christians have generally have been some of the kindest, genuinly good and sucessful people I've known. What do you think?

BTW, I'm agnostic.

EDIT: Woops, I made a typo in the title. If a mod wants to fix it, go ahead.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Not at all. I believe it actually has harmed society. In fact, religion as a whole has. For one precise reason.
It causes unnecessary war. It really is, that simple.

[Mastretta]

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/religion-atheist.png
I say I am in the middle but I feel without religion the world would be all science which is bad and good again so having a balance of religion (Faith) and science is best for the world. The chart above is the countries that have the highest percent of atheist. But the dark ages of science was started by Christianity which lasted for over 350 years, meaning we're 350 years less advance because of religion. (Note I am not really familiar with this topic. I try to stay away from religion topics too many endless arguments.)

[Vocabulous]

Religion in general has caused far more problems then it has fixed.

[Stronk Serb]

We would be more advanced without any organized religion. Some Orthodox churches, especially here are politicaly active, and they are against gay rights, against abortions, and sponsor "Saint Sava Nationalism" which is all about turning Serbia into a theocracy (a state where a religious head leads untill death) ruled by the patriarch. Christianity has done more harm then good, like many organized religion.

[CharlieHorse]

it has a positive impact on the individual and the religious group, but for the rest of society, it is a burden and a negative impact.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Agree to all of this. While it might be good for some, it causes a major number of negatives for the rest. I'm not against religion, but I do agree it has many negatives.

[britishboy]

Mixed feelings although I dont see any negatives with religion being there

[Harry Smith]

Christianity really isn't as perfect as everyone thinks it is, firstly it keeps changing the goal posts about it's various theories so in my eyes the religion has no credibility, first they claimed the world was made in 7 days now they claim that was just a story to interest people in the bible... This is what happens when you read a book written by 12 men 2000 years ago it doesn't tend to make sense.

Christianity has caused a lot of warfare in History including the overall rape of Africa by the colonial powers.

I also hate this idea of judging a whole religion/race/sexuality on the basis of the people you've meet, I've meet some horrible Christians and some lovely Muslims, and vice versa.

[Pseudogeek]

Big question though: does Christianity itself teach war, or is that people perverting its teachings?
Does religion or misuse of religion cause war?
Do people or religion cause war?
If the tenets of Christianity were absolutely followed, would there be war?

I suck at debates but I wanted to put my 2 cents in.

[britishboy]

I think they get too much bad press, only a few do bad things

[Jess]

It's done some good, but an overwhelming amount of bad. As a whole, it has harmed society

[Harry Smith]

I think they get too much bad press, only a few do bad things

The 'few' things that Christianity has endorsed have had terrible effects, look at the crusaders or any of the other middle eastern wars in last 1000 years where we've spread Christianity at the point of a gun, or in Africa where they encouraged homicide, rape and slavery.

Now look in the modern era,Christianity has a lot to answer for especially Catholicism which is the oldest branch. This is a religion which not only supported the Nazis but then smuggled them of Europe after WW2, they've denied gay people rights whilst a group of them sexually abused Children and fought a rather idiotic fight against birth control...

[Pseudogeek]

The 'few' things that Christianity has endorsed have had terrible effects, look at the crusaders or any of the other middle eastern wars in last 1000 years where we've spread Christianity at the point of a gun, or in Africa where they encouraged homicide, rape and slavery.

Now look in the modern era,Christianity has a lot to answer for especially Catholicism which is the oldest branch. This is a religion which not only supported the Nazis but then smuggled them of Europe after WW2, they've denied gay people rights whilst a group of them sexually abused Children and fought a rather idiotic fight against birth control...

*wishes people wouldn't define the whole by the individual parts*

Crusades: NOT endorsed by many Christians today. They screwed up. Majorly.
Spreading Christianity by force: not endorsed by many Christians today.
Catholicism: not all Catholics are Christians.
Nazi support: once again, defining the whole by the parts? Thanks. I'm no fan of Nazis.
LGBT, birth control: hey, it's what they believe in. They think you're stupid for fighting for those things.
Sexual abuse: once again, those people screwed up. Majorly.

My point is, Christianity doesn't endorse most of the things you slander us for.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Pseudogeek]

good post:)

I have those on rare to very rare occasions :) thanks

[teen.jpg]

It only has a positive impact on people of that religion. Everyone else suffers from it.

[Vlerchan]

Crusades: NOT endorsed by many Christians today. They screwed up. Majorly.
Spreading Christianity by force: not endorsed by many Christians today.
Catholicism: not all Catholics are Christians.
Nazi support: once again, defining the whole by the parts? Thanks. I'm no fan of Nazis.
LGBT, birth control: hey, it's what they believe in. They think you're stupid for fighting for those things.
Sexual abuse: once again, those people screwed up. Majorly.
I'm failing to see how the lack of endorsement today makes up for any of the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christianity in the past. It's wrong to generalise all Christians as perpetrators of the above - sure, yeah - but regardless of how small the minority - in the case of child molestation here - it doesn't detract from the fact that Christianity is at fault and it's practice, no matter how misguided by todays standards it might have been, has result in an innumerable amount of deaths and huge amounts of human suffering. It's opposition to LGBT rights and Birth Control is inexcusable, I might add. It doesn't matter how 'stupid' they might think basic human rights are.

[saea97]

*wishes people wouldn't define the whole by the individual parts*

Crusades: NOT endorsed by many Christians today. They screwed up. Majorly.
Spreading Christianity by force: not endorsed by many Christians today.
Catholicism: not all Catholics are Christians.
Nazi support: once again, defining the whole by the parts? Thanks. I'm no fan of Nazis.
LGBT, birth control: hey, it's what they believe in. They think you're stupid for fighting for those things.
Sexual abuse: once again, those people screwed up. Majorly.

My point is, Christianity doesn't endorse most of the things you slander us for.


I think one needs to be very careful when excusing unadulterated barbarism on a scale that spanned entire continents simply because it was in the past. The doctrines of religion that called for the crusades are unchanged, and the damage done to medieval society (notably in the Fourth Crusade) by them is immeasurable.

Also, you can excuse any action by saying "hey, it's what they believe in.". The point is that being opposed to equal rights and to a woman's right to control her own uterus is despicable regardless of if it's "what you believe".

When the Church had significant power, little good came of it. Thank goodness it no longer does.

[Pseudogeek]

I'm failing to see how the lack of endorsement today makes up for any of the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christianity in the past. It's wrong to generalise all Christians as perpetrators of the above - sure, yeah - but regardless of how small the minority - in the case of child molestation here - it doesn't detract from the fact that Christianity is at fault and it's practice, no matter how misguided by todays standards it might have been, has result in an innumerable amount of deaths.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant that the very tenets of the religion don't endorse what they did. It'd be like, oh, killing someone with a kitchen knife and everyone saying it was that company's fault. If I break my sister's iphone in the name of helping the Androids, that doesn't put those companies at fault, does it?

Me thinks my good post streak of 1 is over.

[Pseudogeek]

I think one needs to be very careful when excusing unadulterated barbarism on a scale that spanned entire continents simply because it was "in the past". The doctrines of religion that called for the crusades are unchanged, and the damage done to medieval society (notably in the Fourth Crusade) by them is immeasurable.

Also, you can excuse any action by saying "hey, it's what they believe in.". The point is that being opposed to equal rights and to a woman's right to control her own uterus is despicable regardless of if it's "what you believe".

When the Church had significant power, little good came of it. Thank goodness it no longer does.

I'm not excusing them. They did screw up. God will deal with them, if he hasn't already. But Christianity itself didnt cause that. Misguided people did. It's like the "guns kill people/spoons made me fat" type thing.

Admittedly, that's not a very good defense. Those are tricky subjects and everyone is acting off of what the tenets of their belief systems say, or they just go with their guts.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I'm glad the Church is no longer a main power as well.

[Vlerchan]

If I break my sister's iphone in the name of helping the Androids, that doesn't put those companies at fault, does it?
I'm sure it would be found that some degree of culpability would lie with the company if a large majority of Android Executives were actively supporting the move at the time, and it was done through a co-ordinated, large-scale attack on Iphone owners worldwide. It probably wouldn't help if the company published an easy-to-wrongly-interpret book praising their product, and damning all other companies to bankruptcy (corporate Hell) for failing to fall in amongst its ranks.

Though the thread is concerned with the net impact of Christianity. Whilst No True Christian might commit such heinous acts as the ones previously outlined their actions are considered to be part of the Religion's net impact. EDIT: The main problem with Christianity here is that because of the manner in which the Bible is written their is no straight-forward manner or set way of which one can interrupt it, and as such a large majority of Christians will finish with entirely different views on what a True Christian may be. I'm sure if you speak to any of the Priests who participated in the Spanish Inquisition, or any modern militant homophobe you'll find that they unshakably believe that they were/are acting in the best interests of their religion, and believe that they are the True Christian.

[Pseudogeek]

I'm sure it would be found that some degree of culpability would lie with the company if a large majority of Android Executives were actively supporting the move at the time, and it was done through a co-ordinated, large-scale attack on Iphone owners worldwide. It probably wouldn't help if the company published an easy-to-wrongly-interpret book praising their product, and damning all other companies to bankruptcy (corporate Hell) for failing to fall in amongst its ranks.

Though the thread is concerned with the net impact of Christianity, and whilst No True Christian might commit such heinous acts as the ones previously outlined their actions - as are all actions done in the name of Christianity - are considered to be part of the Religion's net impact.

I give up then, because if someone can do anything in the name of Christianity and everyone will fault Christianity for it, then there's nothing left to say. It doesn't matter what the religion actually teaches, or the fact that the act was more than likely not done in the true Christian spirit. If doing something outrageous in the name of Christianity puts Christianity instantly at fault, then there's no defense, because even Christians screw up, and screw ups are more often remembered than not.

[Harry Smith]

*wishes people wouldn't define the whole by the individual parts*

Crusades: NOT endorsed by many Christians today. They screwed up. Majorly.
Spreading Christianity by force: not endorsed by many Christians today.
Catholicism: not all Catholics are Christians.
Nazi support: once again, defining the whole by the parts? Thanks. I'm no fan of Nazis.
LGBT, birth control: hey, it's what they believe in. They think you're stupid for fighting for those things.
Sexual abuse: once again, those people screwed up. Majorly.

My point is, Christianity doesn't endorse most of the things you slander us for.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

I mentioned clearly in the my post that not all Christians were catholic didn't I?

You can't deny the fact that large elements of the Catholic church not only supported the Nazis through the education pact in the 30's and then later through the rat holes that helped mass murderers escape.

It's what they believe so that justifies it? Heck that's just stupid, I'm not even going to go into detail to express just how wrong that statement is- this is why I hate the Church- why the fuck do they have any right to tell me who I should sleep with?

As it was very nicely pointed out look what happened when the Church was in power-they oppressed science, and lead foreign wars which butchered people for simply believing in the wrong god.

Your point about the past would be slightly more valid if the church had actually moved forward on major issues-sure they don't favour a slave trade anymore but they hold views that are about 50 years out of date on major issues such as Abortion, gay rights and Adoption. You can't bang out about how the church has changed and how I'm slandering it whilist then supporting people who deny me my fundamental human rights

The OP question was does Christianity have an overall positive impact- the answer is no...

[CosmicNoodle]

Christianity has two sides, the good side. The one that encourages people to help and to be good. But it also has a evil side, the side that hates homosexuality, the side that oppresses science and the theory of evolution, the side that starts wars and fights.
I have thought about this before and do think that humanity would have been much better of without any religion at all. In my opinion all it has done is hold us back and make us fight, it has it's good sides no doubt. But the good is outweighed by the bad.

Every time I hear about Christianity lately all I hear is of them offending gay's or preaching to me in the street. Like I said this is MY OPINION and has no merit but to my own mind, one must be very careful with this topic. Any offense caused by this was not meant and I apologies for it if need be, but that is just my opinion. We would be better without religion as a hole.

I am Atheist because I just can't believe in the notion of a god of any sort. Again, just my opinion.

[Lovelife090994]

Christianity has done much good whether Catholic or Protestant but sadly the hateful and false few ruin it's original message of What and who God is. The Catholic Church has done a lot of charity and preaches a good word to those who want to hear it. Christianity is not forced but sadly people hold Christians today accountable for past sins. I am a Christian but I did not do anything to start the Crusades or Inquisition and that doesn't invalidate Christianity. Disagree with my faith just don't disrespect me because I have it.

As a whole Christianity does good but the extremists and super religious holier than thou have corrupted the original message. Generally Christian nations are quite accepting and Christians generally will let someone in even if that someone literally hates Christians.

[Danny_boi 16]

Not our Modern society. I think that Christianity has actually helped out modern society. I don't see a negative thing that it has brought.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Not our Modern society. I think that Christianity has actually helped out modern society. I don't see a negative thing that it has brought.

I'm very sorry, but are you blind?

Catholics objecting gay marriage?
Christians creating most offensive part of the US Pledge? (In 1954 to add)
I don't know what to say.

[Sugaree]

Christians creating most offensive part of the US Pledge? (In 1954 to add)


Is it really that offending to atheists just to SAY the word "God" now? Wow, atheists sure have changed since I became a Buddhist.

[Cpt_Cutter]

Is it really that offending to atheists just to SAY the word "God" now? Wow, atheists sure have changed since I became a Buddhist.

I'm not even american and I can tell you that it's the fact that they(we) have to have to pledge under god, not the saying of the word god that angers atheists. I personally don't care about saying the word god, but I would be angered if every day I had to pledge or state my dedication to something or someone which/who I disagreed with the principles of.

I live in New Zealand though, so I cant really talk about anything from the us involving religion, or religion in general, because the most christian based law we had was the banning of gay marriage, which was reversed a few months ago.

[Sugaree]

I'm not even american and I can tell you that it's the fact that they(we) have to have to pledge under god, not the saying of the word god that angers atheists. I personally don't care about saying the word god, but I would be angered if every day I had to pledge or state my dedication to something or someone which/who I disagreed with the principles of.

I live in New Zealand though, so I cant really talk about anything from the us involving religion, or religion in general, because the most christian based law we had was the banning of gay marriage, which was reversed a few months ago.

He can easily just not say that line.

[Lovelife090994]

I'm very sorry, but are you blind?

Catholics objecting gay marriage?
Christians creating most offensive part of the US Pledge? (In 1954 to add)
I don't know what to say.

What is so wrong with the idea of a being who could do nothing but love you? Is your heart so black of smog that the very mention of His Name and followers irks you? Objecting gay marriage? So now all who disagree are heathen? It isn't bad to not agree with homosexuality. There are two sides to everything. You have a problem with religion, I do not. You have a negative view of Christianity, I do not. You care about what someone's faith is, I could care less. I don't care who you are or what you are but to call out an entire group and to blame them for the sins of few is utterly callous and rebarbative to say the least.
Why the bitterness? The US plegde does indeed have the word "God" in it. FYI, America's first settlements were in the names of two, Kings and God. No one is forcing you to say "Under God" and if they are despite that I can not speak for them then I am sorry someone bugged you because forced practice is not Christianity.

God gave us a choice, either you follow him or not, respect him or not, but do NOT judge a whole people. Trust me, not all homosexuals are atheist nor saints themselves.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

What is so wrong with the idea of a being who could do nothing but love you? Is your heart so black of smog that the very mention of His Name and followers irks you? Objecting gay marriage? So now all who disagree are heathen? It isn't bad to not agree with homosexuality. There are two sides to everything. You have a problem with religion, I do not. You have a negative view of Christianity, I do not. You care about what someone's faith is, I could care less. I don't care who you are or what you are but to call out an entire group and to blame them for the sins of few is utterly callous and rebarbative to say the least.
Why the bitterness? The US plegde does indeed have the word "God" in it. FYI, America's first settlements were in the names of two, Kings and God. No one is forcing you to say "Under God" and if they are despite that I can not speak for them then I am sorry someone bugged you because forced practice is not Christianity.

God gave us a choice, either you follow him or not, respect him or not, but do NOT judge a whole people. Trust me, not all homosexuals are atheist nor saints themselves.

I should've clarified: hardcore Catholics. (It is true, in fact they actually BLATANTLY offend them (us.)) Plus that was made actually to go AGAINST atheism particularly in the Soviet Union. If you don't know something please don't assume bullshit, trying to make me look like a fucking hypocrite.

That is absolutely untrue. Im just saying as a whole it has created many negative things.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Is it really that offending to atheists just to SAY the word "God" now? Wow, atheists sure have changed since I became a Buddhist.

DONT SAY ANYTHING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EVEN FUCKING TALKING ABOUT. It really is that simple. I just explained to the idiot that thinks I hate Christians about that, actually. It was CREATED to disrespect atheism. Made in 1954 should probably have given a sort of a clue, that was early in the Cold War.

[Vlerchan]

Objecting gay marriage? [...] It isn't bad to not agree with homosexuality.
Lets say outdated then, though I'd personally find the Churches active suppression of a minority group and denial of a basic human right - marriage - an inherently bad thing. It's also not about agreeing with homosexuality - I don't think most gays care how the Church thinks of them - but rather allowing them to live their lives to the same extent a straight person can.

[Sugaree]

DONT SAY ANYTHING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EVEN FUCKING TALKING ABOUT.

You seem upset.

And I do know what I'm talking about, bud. I felt the exact same way a few years ago. The only difference now is that I grew out of it and realized it was childish to be offended by a word.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

You seem upset.

And I do know what I'm talking about, bud. I felt the exact same way a few years ago. The only difference now is that I grew out of it and realized it was childish to be offended by a word.

I am offended about the origin of the section, actually, not the word. That's what the rest of it was about.

[britishboy]

You seem upset.

And I do know what I'm talking about, bud. I felt the exact same way a few years ago. The only difference now is that I grew out of it and realized it was childish to be offended by a word.

stop being a bully

[Sugaree]

I am offended about the origin of the section, actually, not the word. That's what the rest of it was about.

The origin of the section wasn't to offend atheists. On the contrary, it was felt, at the time, that the nation needed to be bound "under God" as a sign of solidarity with each other. It has nothing to do with offending the atheist population.

[Lovelife090994]

DONT SAY ANYTHING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EVEN FUCKING TALKING ABOUT. It really is that simple. I just explained to the idiot that thinks I hate Christians about that, actually. It was CREATED to disrespect atheism. Made in 1954 should probably have given a sort of a clue, that was early in the Cold War.


No,no, you do not yell and curse at someone who talked to you in a civil manner. Do you have any idea what you just said? Disrepect atheism? Have you gone daft? America back in the 50s was way more religious than now and the people either said the pledge or omitted the "Under God". No one forces you to say. You must take offense to my state Ohio's motto, it's from the Book of Matthew. Matthew 25 I believe. I may be wrong, I probably am off a chapter or two if you wish to look it up, it may be 17:25 I will look it up to clarify. Just because you feel offended does not give you the right to offend any innocent person just becaise they are religious. The religious and non are both ridiculed enough. Honestly no one wants to be offended and I assure you Christians do not seek to offend atheists, we pray for all despite the hate we receive. Christians and homosexuals, Jews and atheists all face opposition and hate.
Lets say outdated then, though I'd personally find the Churches active suppression of a minority group and denial of a basic human right - marriage - an inherently bad thing. It's also not about agreeing with homosexuality - I don't think most gays care how the Church thinks of them - but rather allowing them to live their lives to the same extent a straight person can.

Suppresion? Only a few supress anyone. You don't hold the whole Church responisble do you? Just because someone is straight that does not them a saint, likewise to some homosexual, not all of them are saints. Most homosexuals may not care what others think but that does that mean they must show hostility to the religious.

[Lovelife090994]

stop being a bully

He said nothing wrong, a bit direct I admit but nothing worth the word, "bully".

[Derryck]

I think as a whole religion is positive, but it tends to cause............ problems.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

The origin of the section wasn't to offend atheists. On the contrary, it was felt, at the time, that the nation needed to be bound "under God" as a sign of solidarity with each other. It has nothing to do with offending the atheist population.

Yes, but also to go against Russia, which happens to be atheist.

[ElijahMouth]

You talk about christianity giving people morals. Maybe they were good a long time ago, when christianity first began, but those have turned into standards that alienate people. We don't need religion. People can no longer think for themselves or even take responsibility for their actions because of religion. And as for the Crusades, spreading christianity by force, and nazism etc., it's true that most christians don't endorse that but it doesn't mean that it wasn't caused by christianity. If christianity hadn't existed then those things simply wouldn't have happened, the people wouldn't have gotten the ideas.

Alright, I'm all done ranting. In conclusion christianity has been a lot worse than better for humanity.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

You talk about christianity giving people morals. Maybe they were good a long time ago, when christianity first began, but those have turned into standards that alienate people. We don't need religion. People can no longer think for themselves or even take responsibility for their actions because of religion. And as for the Crusades, spreading christianity by force, and nazism etc., it's true that most christians don't endorse that but it doesn't mean that it wasn't caused by christianity. If christianity hadn't existed then those things simply wouldn't have happened, the people wouldn't have gotten the ideas.

Alright, I'm all done ranting. In conclusion christianity has been a lot worse than better for humanity.

I agree. For more reasons than that.

[Trace]

No . Morals should have never been taken this far, imo.

[othees]

There are a lot of unneeded things that affect the world, but we need to learn to live with it and not alienate groups we don't like. That causes some large scaled known problems.

[sqishy]

It has caused minority group rights problems and war, but it's not inherently evil. Still, I don't like what it is doing, it's doing a lot of harm.

[darthearth]

Christianity is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Christianity is the crucifixion, death and subsequent resurrection of a Divine being on the Earth unto salvation through grace for all who believe, not stuff like the crusades or anti-GLBT. Christianity is helping others and loving one's neighbor as themselves. These things have nothing but a positive impact on society (think on the local and individual/personal scale). Christianity is not about the human ignorance of the Christians that all to often leads to oppression and evil.

What I'm saying is to think about what one is defining as "Christianity", does this include human-religious ignorance unto evil, or the core gospel message of love, grace and salvation (as part of a new life lived in Christ). There seems to be confusion between the Christians and non-Christians here on this question. I think of Christianity as the basic gospel message, not the ignorance of the church, and since I think of it that way, I say it has a net positive impact on society.

The doctrines of religion that called for the crusades are unchanged, and the damage done to medieval society (notably in the Fourth Crusade) by them is immeasurable.



What doctrines? Medieval church doctrines or the core gospel message as found in the New Testament? I think you and many others are confusing church doctrines/attitudes with what Christianity really is, that being the gospel message.

.......People can no longer think for themselves or even take responsibility for their actions because of religion. And as for the Crusades, spreading christianity by force, and nazism etc., it's true that most christians don't endorse that but it doesn't mean that it wasn't caused by christianity. If christianity hadn't existed then those things simply wouldn't have happened, the people wouldn't have gotten the ideas.

Alright, I'm all done ranting. In conclusion christianity has been a lot worse than better for humanity.

How did the gospel message cause this again? Really.

[ElijahMouth]

Christianity is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Christianity is the crucifixion, death and subsequent resurrection of a Divine being on the Earth unto salvation through grace for all who believe, not stuff like the crusades or anti-GLBT. Christianity is helping others and loving one's neighbor as themselves. These things have nothing but a positive impact on society (think on the local and individual/personal scale). Christianity is not about the human ignorance of the Christians that all to often lead to oppression and evil.

What I'm saying is to think about what one is defining as "Christianity", does this include human-religious ignorance unto evil, or the core gospel message of love, grace and salvation (as part of a new life lived in Christ). There seems to be confusion between the Christians and non-Christians here on this question. I think of Christianity as the basic gospel message, not the ignorance of the church, and since I think of it that way, I say it has a net positive impact on society.



What doctrines? Medieval church doctrines or the core gospel message as found in the New Testament? I think you and many others are confusing church doctrines/attitudes with what Christianity really is, that being the gospel message.



How did the gospel message cause this again? Really.

It doesn't matter what the original message of christianity was, these things happened because of christianity existing. You can't deny that.

[darthearth]

It doesn't matter what the original message of christianity was, these things happened because of christianity existing. You can't deny that.

You are choosing to define Christianity by the negative actions/ignorance of Christians. I do not define Christianity this way. This is the difference.

[Pepito]

Personally I think that religion was invented to help people cope with the surrounding world and to help them explain many difficult issues and concepts like life/death etc. However it has also caused so many wars and disturbance that in effect it created more bad than good. I`m not against religion, I just think that people should have beliefs for themselves, without the "help" of such establishments as the church, or the Vatican.

[Zenos]

[QUOTE=Walter Powers;2581362]So I was talking with some of my very "progressive" friends and the topic of religion came up. They slandered it, specifically Christianity, and pretty much said that we'd be better off without it. I think that's ridiculous. Christianity gives people morals (not that you can't be moral without religion), and it helps people. And I mean, the proof is in the product. America was founded on Christian principles, and in my experience, Christians have generally have been some of the kindest, genuinly good and sucessful people I've known. What do you think?

BTW, I'm agnostic.

EDIT: Woops, I made a typo in the title. If a mod wants to fix it, go ahead.[/QUOTE i am so sick of people acting like christianity is the big cheese of religion spirituality and morality. druidry asatru etc pagan religions all give moral guidance. christianty on the other hand has done more harm then good in comparison to the pagan faiths native to europeans or other peoples.

[Zenos]

The 'few' things that Christianity has endorsed have had terrible effects, look at the crusaders or any of the other middle eastern wars in last 1000 years where we've spread Christianity at the point of a gun, or in Africa where they
encouraged homicide, rape and slavery.

Now look in the modern era,Christianity has a lot to answer for especially Catholicism which is the oldest branch. This is a religion which not only supported the Nazis but then smuggled them of Europe after WW2, they've denied gay people rights whilst a group of them sexually abused Children and fought a rather idiotic fight against birth control...

study ur history the crusades where defensive in nature and was an effort to take back lands held by the then christianized roman empire as well as to push the armies of islam not only out of those areas but out of the parts of europe that the arabic islamic empire had taken. catholicism is not the oldest branch of the religion its just the branch that wonout way bach then.thrrr

[Achillea]

"Religion" is not as important as what a person takes away from it: Morals, duty, attitude ect.
Have you ever thought that maybe it's the humans who are screwing up, not the Morals of the Religion. Humans who interpret their religion "the wrong way". These people do things in the name of their religion when infact their religion gives them no reason to do such things ( Jesus Christ never called for the Crusades?). I think that if you look at the foundations of most religions, they do have good morals and should a person follow them, they will have a positive impact in society. Regarding abuses in the Catholic Church: The MEN who did the abuse were obviously not acting in accordance with the Bible. They do not represent the Evil in Catholisism but the Evil of MEN, to manipulate such a pure message into such cruel acts. Also, Pope John Paul II sheltered many Jews when he was a priest during WWII....Pope Francis has nothing against Gay people if they seek God.....In my opinion Christianity has a positive effect on people who take Jesus' message to heart and are tolerant of other religions. :)

[Zenos]

"Religion" is not as important as what a person takes away from it: Morals, duty, attitude ect.
Have you ever thought that maybe it's the humans who are screwing up, not the Morals of the Religion. Humans who interpret their religion "the wrong way". These people do things in the name of their religion when infact their religion gives them no reason to do such things ( Jesus Christ never called for the Crusades?). I think that if you look at the foundations of most religions, they do have good morals and should a person follow them, they will have a positive impact in society. Regarding abuses in the Catholic Church: The MEN who did the abuse were obviously not acting in accordance with the Bible. They do not represent the Evil in Catholisism but the Evil of MEN, to manipulate such a pure message into such cruel acts. Also, Pope John Paul II sheltered many Jews when he was a priest during WWII....Pope Francis has nothing against Gay people if they seek God.....In my opinion Christianity has a positive effect on people who take Jesus' message to heart and are tolerant of other religions. :)
id like to say something about the crusades. the islamic armies where invading lands held by christendom in agressive jihad the christians had no choice but to engage in the crusades which was defensive in nature with the goal of retaking christian lands from an invading empires army.

[Danny_boi 16]

I'm very sorry, but are you blind?

Catholics objecting gay marriage?
Christians creating most offensive part of the US Pledge? (In 1954 to add)
I don't know what to say.

1. American Catholics are objecting, furthermore, the church accepts gays into the church.
2. American Christians, and that was voted on by the democratic controlled congress in the 50's
3. There is a lot to say. I'm a gay Catholic. Your argument is invalid.

[Harry Smith]

id like to say something about the crusades. the islamic armies where invading lands held by christendom in agressive jihad the christians had no choice but to engage in the crusades which was defensive in nature with the goal of retaking christian lands from an invading empires army.

Oh wow- your kidding right?

How the fuck is English and French soldiers travelling over 10,000 miles to Syria and Iraq defensive in any way?

The First Crusade, then, was not about turning back centuries of Muslim expansion. It was about seizing control of sacred landscapes. It was, in modern parlance, "a war of choice" or "an act of aggression."

We were the invaders- we had no right to go over their and slaughter their children.

By your theory then Mexico has every right to invade Texas and California

[Twilly F. Sniper]

1. American Catholics are objecting, furthermore, the church accepts gays into the church.
2. American Christians, and that was voted on by the democratic controlled congress in the 50's
3. There is a lot to say. I'm a gay Catholic. Your argument is invalid.

Apparently not the hardcore anti-gay Catholic type, well that apparently USED to exist, not long ago...

[tovaris]

It is usles! Not to mention agresive and blod thirsty!
Cristianety gives people the kinds of morals that alowe them to slaughter their Countryman in cold blod. It is the worst kond of opium, K Marx ment opium as a good thing when he talked about religion, but i my self am of the opinion that long term opiumnuse causes damage.

[Achillea]

It is usles! Not to mention agresive and blod thirsty!
Cristianety gives people the kinds of morals that alowe them to slaughter their Countryman in cold blod. It is the worst kond of opium, K Marx ment opium as a good thing when he talked about religion, but i my self am of the opinion that long term opiumnuse causes damage.
What kind of morals might they be? Love God and love your neighbour as yourself? Maybe one of the ten commandments? You shall not kill? Hm, can't seem to think of any reason that due to Christianity people are blood thirsty and want to kill anyone. Please enlighten me if you do. Have you any evidence you want to give that will help me see your point any clearer? And I agree that long term opium use is probably not the brightest idea but religion however is. It instills good morals onto people and gives them pupose. Imagine the chaos that would break if everyone lived for today and never thought about what happened when they died?

[tovaris]

What kind of morals might they be? Love God and love your neighbour as yourself? Maybe one of the ten commandments? You shall not kill? Hm, can't seem to think of any reason that due to Christianity people are blood thirsty and want to kill anyone. Please enlighten me if you do. Have you any evidence you want to give that will help me see your point any clearer? And I agree that long term opium use is probably not the brightest idea but religion however is. It instills good morals onto people and gives them pupose. Imagine the chaos that would break if everyone lived for today and never thought about what happened when they died?

Hmm.. do you remember the crusades? Maybe the domobranci and theyr good inpowed slaughter of their own nation, my nation. The chetniks, ustaši... they too killed in the name of religion.
Remember the kill the infidales between he lines and IN many lines...
Religion belonges to the pas the deep past of a tribal world.
Do not eat shelfish, do not kick a pig blather filled with ait... good morals, wisdom of somekind right...
People who cant find purpose in the real world and seek it in some imaginary being up in the sky that frows down lightning must be some sad people.
And just as with opiom there are concequances.
When we die our body decaies and is recicled back into the natural world.

[saea97]

What kind of morals might they be? Love God and love your neighbour as yourself? Maybe one of the ten commandments? You shall not kill? Hm, can't seem to think of any reason that due to Christianity people are blood thirsty and want to kill anyone. Please enlighten me if you do. Have you any evidence you want to give that will help me see your point any clearer? And I agree that long term opium use is probably not the brightest idea but religion however is.

Christianity is not the reason that people believe murder is wrong. Aside from it being an evolutionarily advantageous trait, laws against murder existed for millenia before your mythology arose: in the codes of Ur-Nammu and Hammurabi, for instance. Also, in listing the ten commandments you neglect to point out that great swathes of the bible are condemnably barbaric and nobody should draw any sort of morals from it.

It instills good morals onto people and gives them pupose.

People should do what they think is right rather than blindly obey an ancient and outdated text. Plenty of people find purpose without religion. When you know this life is your only life, that should give you more purpose, not less.


Imagine the chaos that would break if everyone lived for today and never thought about what happened when they died?

The number of people 'living for today' probably vastly exceeds the number of people who base all their actions on the possibility of an afterlife, regardless of how many people call themselves Christians. And the world hasn't imploded yet. I'll take my chances mythology-free, thanks.

[Achillea]

Hmm.. do you remember the crusades? Maybe the domobranci and theyr good inpowed slaughter of their own nation, my nation. The chetniks, ustaši... they too killed in the name of religion.
Remember the kill the infidales between he lines and IN many lines...
Religion belonges to the pas the deep past of a tribal world.
Do not eat shelfish, do not kick a pig blather filled with ait... good morals, wisdom of somekind right...
People who cant find purpose in the real world and seek it in some imaginary being up in the sky that frows down lightning must be some sad people.
And just as with opiom there are concequances.
When we die our body decaies and is recicled back into the natural world. Jesus Christ never ordered the crusades, Im sorry but thats the fact, unless you have information to prove otherwise. Those people didn't take Jesus' message to heart when he said "Love god and love your neighbour as yourself". At that time most people couldn't read let alone a bible that was in Latin. These crusaders were selfish and acted in an unchristian way. Anyone who kills or hurts in the name of God is kiddibg themselves. Yeah those rules you mentioned are ridiculous:) Unless you believe in the ancient Greek god Zeus then youre fine, I take it? Where do you get your pupose from, just as a matter of interest?

Christianity is not the reason that people believe murder is wrong. Aside from it being an evolutionarily advantageous trait, laws against murder existed for millenia before your mythology arose: in the codes of Ur-Nammu and Hammurabi, for instance. Also, in listing the ten commandments you neglect to point out that great swathes of the bible are condemnably barbaric and nobody should draw any sort of morals from it.


People should do what they think is right rather than blindly obey an ancient and outdated text. Plenty of people find purpose without religion. When you know this life is your only life, that should give you more purpose, not less.



The number of people 'living for today' probably vastly exceeds the number of people who base all their actions on the possibility of an afterlife, regardless of how many people call themselves Christians. And the world hasn't imploded yet. I'll take my chances mythology-free, thanks.
Firstly, calling my faith a myth is Offensive and unneccisary.It doesn't make me want to listen to your argument or value it either. Have some respect.
Secondly, I never said that Christianity was the reason that people think mudering is bad, I was saying that because Christianity says it means that true Christians
should not be blood thirsty. And I disregard most of the old testement save the comandments.

People who are actively part of a community of faith ARE part if it because they agree with its teachings, not the other way around so they are not blindly following it and tgey are doing what they think is right. The meaning of the words resonates within them. If you can find meaning in this world then thats great for you. Christianity gives Christians meaning to world. Im sorry if you disagree but thats not my problem.
And if you really believe that people who dont care about the consequences of their actions in the afterlife outweigh those who do, then you clearly do not understand that being religious of any kind is the rule rather than the exception. All of those people disagree with you...but I guess we could be proven wrong. And I feel kind of bad that you grew up in a society that caused you to doubt other peoples faith. Also again with the offensive comment, it realky doesn't do your argument any favours.

[saea97]

Firstly, calling my faith a myth is Offensive and unneccisary.It doesn't make me want to listen to your argument or value it either. Have some respect.

I'm awfully sorry for labelling your religion a myth, just as I label the pantheons of Ancient Greece and Rome myths (there really is no difference to me). You see, I was awfully offended and found entirely unneccesary your insinuation that society would collapse if people didn't have faith in an afterlife. I found it a much more monstrous thing to say than the fairly innocuous word "myth".

And I disregard most of the old testement save the comandments.

On whose authority? If it's in the Bible, it's canon. It's both commendable and convenient that you cherry-pick the nice bits of the Bible, but that's an awful lot of pages you're ripping out.



And if you really believe that people who dont care about the consequences of their actions in the afterlife outweigh those who do, then you clearly do not understand that being religious of any kind is the rule rather than the exception. All of those people disagree with you...but I guess we could be proven wrong.

You misunderstand. My point was that a great many people label themselves as Christians but living in a "godly" manner couldn't be further from the way they conduct themselves. Unless you wish to imply that simply bearing the label of Christian is enough.

And I feel kind of bad that you grew up in a society that caused you to doubt other peoples faith.

You have no particular reason to comment on the society I grew up in. This is just as much of an ad hominem as the one you admonished me - twice - for. Doubting other people's faith is my prerogative, and speaking out against it is a democratic right that I claim for as long as organised religion persists in causing harm to the world.

[Harry Smith]

All of those people disagree with you...but I guess we could be proven wrong. And I feel kind of bad that you grew up in a society that caused you to doubt other peoples faith. Also again with the offensive comment, it realky doesn't do your argument any favours.

Your religion is pretty much a myth unless you can prove it, it's got about as much credibility as witchcraft and black magic.

I'm happy I grew up in a society that doesn't have blind obedience to some unknown deity, in regards to your comment about faith it's an interesting word choice, Betrand Russel sums it up nicely

"Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence

[Cygnus]

Firstly, calling my faith a myth is Offensive and unneccisary.It doesn't make me want to listen to your argument or value it either. Have some respect.

And I feel kind of bad that you grew up in a society that caused you to doubt other peoples faith. Also again with the offensive comment, it realky doesn't do your argument any favours.

I'm awfully sorry for labelling your religion a myth, just as I label the pantheons of Ancient Greece and Rome myths (there really is no difference to me). You see, I was awfully offended and found entirely unneccesary your insinuation that society would collapse if people didn't have faith in an afterlife. I found it a much more monstrous thing to say than the fairly innocuous word "myth".

You have no particular reason to comment on the society I grew up in. This is just as much of an ad hominem as the one you admonished me - twice - for. Doubting other people's faith is my prerogative, and speaking out against it is a democratic right that I claim for as long as organised religion persists in causing harm to the world.

Both of you, be mature and do not take this to the point of personal insults, lets have a healthy discussion here.

[Achillea]

I'm awfully sorry for labelling your religion a myth, just as I label the pantheons of Ancient Greece and Rome myths (there really is no difference to me). You see, I was awfully offended and found entirely unneccesary your insinuation that society would collapse if people didn't have faith in an afterlife. I found it a much more monstrous thing to say than the fairly innocuous word "myth".



On whose authority? If it's in the Bible, it's canon. It's both commendable and convenient that you cherry-pick the nice bits of the Bible, but that's an awful lot of pages you're ripping out.




You misunderstand. My point was that a great many people label themselves as Christians but living in a "godly" manner couldn't be further from the way they conduct themselves. Unless you wish to imply that simply bearing the label of Christian is enough.



You have no particular reason to comment on the society I grew up in. This is just as much of an ad hominem as the one you admonished me - twice - for. Doubting other people's faith is my prerogative, and speaking out against it is a democratic right that I claim for as long as organised religion persists in causing harm to the world.
Im sorry too for comenting that I felt sorry for you, sometimes doubting people can be of benefit. The reason I brought it up was because I felt that you were saying that even though these people were Christians that you believed that they only lived for the moment, which I thought was slightly unfair and I found it strange that you could so easily imagine that it was so. Thats why I said about the society you grew up in, doubting. I didnt mean it cause any offence or make an unnecessery comment but as you clarified, its just your right to do so.
And I think that those rights give me the the ability to "cherry-pick" what I take from the Bible. In my knowlege, Christians have always considered the New Testement to be more important than the Old Testement. In mass, I have never heard a reading from the Old Testement and many times I have been given the New Testement on its own instead of both. This may be different in other branches of Christianity but that is my experience as a Catholic.

Your religion is pretty much a myth unless you can prove it, it's got about as much credibility as witchcraft and black magic.

I'm happy I grew up in a society that doesn't have blind obedience to some unknown deity, in regards to your comment about faith it's an interesting word choice, Betrand Russel sums it up nicely
I was just saying that you call Religions religions. Its just common courtesy. Im glad you grew up in such an environment. I am growing up in one too. My comment was actually about doubting other peoples faith in their own afterlife. Yeah that quote does sum it up nicely.

[tovaris]

Jesus Christ never ordered the crusades, Im sorry but thats the fact, unless you have information to prove otherwise. Those people didn't take Jesus' message to heart when he said "Love god and love your neighbour as yourself". At that time most people couldn't read let alone a bible that was in Latin. These crusaders were selfish and acted in an unchristian way. Anyone who kills or hurts in the name of God is kiddibg themselves. Yeah those rules you mentioned are ridiculous:) Unless you believe in the ancient Greek god Zeus then youre fine, I take it? Where do you get your pupose from, just as a matter of interest?



Ah so you believe in the teachings of jezus a jew, and jet jou as a cristian deny judeism...
The crusades were order by the pope who is a they believe a reprisentative of the diety on thos world.
Have you read the bible? Because you seem to be quting just the parts you like. What about all the talk about war, murder, blodshead, mutulation.... Where did that part go?
So you consider the rules as set by the bible redicilous and jet you folow them with a passion...
And not to mention the horors commited by the institutions of this religion... And again the pointles lod shead in its name betveen the years 1941 and 1945...

I myself do not need some hermafrodit up in the sky to have purpose to lieve, if you wish to descus that with me further i think it would be more apropriate to do it ower privatemasage sinceit would not be on topic in this thread.


Firstly, calling my faith a myth is Offensive and unneccisary.


I dont think there is anything ofensive about the truth. All religion are based on miths, cristeanety being an ofshoot of another religion .


And I think that those rights give me the the ability to "cherry-pick" what I take from the Bible. In my knowlege, Christians have always considered the New Testement to be more important than the Old Testement. In mass, I have never heard a reading from the Old Testement and many times I have been given the New Testement on its own instead of both. This may be different in other branches of Christianity but that is my experience as a Catholic.



Ae you femiliar with the story of Job, from the old testimant? This story is oftennreferd to by chatolic preests and believers as being inportant and stuf... and jet it is from the old testament. Then ofcourse there are the 10 comandements... lets not forget how the izrealites left egipt and drowned the farows army that was triing to benish them from egipt... You cannot deny the strong conection to the old testament even if You dont like it.

[Achillea]

Ah so you believe in the teachings of jezus a jew, and jet jou as a cristian deny judeism...
The crusades were order by the pope who is a they believe a reprisentative of the diety on thos world.
Have you read the bible? Because you seem to be quting just the parts you like. What about all the talk about war, murder, blodshead, mutulation.... Where did that part go?
So you consider the rules as set by the bible redicilous and jet you folow them with a passion...
And not to mention the horors commited by the institutions of this religion... And again the pointles lod shead in its name betveen the years 1941 and 1945...

I myself do not need some hermafrodit up in the sky to have purpose to lieve, if you wish to descus that with me further i think it would be more apropriate to do it ower privatemasage sinceit would not be on topic in this thread.



I dont think there is anything ofensive about the truth. All religion are based on miths, cristeanety being an ofshoot of another religion .



Ae you femiliar with the story of Job, from the old testimant? This story is oftennreferd to by chatolic preests and believers as being inportant and stuf... and jet it is from the old testament. Then ofcourse there are the 10 comandements... lets not forget how the izrealites left egipt and drowned the farows army that was triing to benish them from egipt... You cannot deny the strong conection to the old testament even if You dont like it.
Yes that is true that I as a Christian do believe in Jesus, a Jew ,and true again that I dont believe in judaism. The reason that is so is because the Jews denied Jesus and sent him to death. They persecuted the early Christians so its no wonder that Christians dont believe in Judeism.
The popes at that time were evil men who had no intention of following the will of god. They only wanted money and power. Since then the church has under gone a reformation. Men have always fought and they would have fought regardless of what religion they were. Im not denying that the crusades were very bad but I dont think you can blame religion : It was just an excuse to get land and wealth.
Obviously I am going to quote the parts I like as I am trying to prove a point. No, I havent read the bible cover to cover and no I dont follow rules such as no shellfish etc. But I do try to follow by the example of Jesus Christ. What are you referring to about from1941 to 1945?
Okay so you dont get your purpose from religion. And yeah I agree that it is off topic.
Fine whatever, I ust thought we might have been civil and just use the term religion.
No I was not familiar with the story of Job. I have never in all ny years of attending mass heard of the story of Job.
Yes the ten commandments are in the old testement but Christians are still expected to follow them. Never had a sermon about the isrealites fleeing from Egypt, to tell the truth. I am not denying the fact that both the Old testement and new testement create the Bible, I was simply saying that in my experience, much much more emphises was put on the New Testement.

[Harry Smith]

Yes that is true that I as a Christian do believe in Jesus, a Jew ,and true again that I dont believe in judaism. The reason that is so is because the Jews denied Jesus and sent him to death. They persecuted the early Christians so its no wonder that Christians dont believe in Judeism.
The popes at that time were evil men who had no intention of following the will of god. They only wanted money and power. Since then the church has under gone a reformation. Men have always fought and they would have fought regardless of what religion they were. Im not denying that the crusades were very bad but I dont think you can blame religion : It was just an excuse to get land and wealth.
Obviously I am going to quote the parts I like as I am trying to prove a point. No, I havent read the bible cover to cover and no I dont follow rules such as no shellfish etc. But I do try to follow by the example of Jesus Christ. What are you referring to about from1941 to 1945?
Okay so you dont get your purpose from religion. And yeah I agree that it is off topic.
Fine whatever, I ust thought we might have been civil and just use the term religion.
No I was not familiar with the story of Job. I have never in all ny years of attending mass heard of the story of Job.
Yes the ten commandments are in the old testement but Christians are still expected to follow them. Never had a sermon about the isrealites fleeing from Egypt, to tell the truth. I am not denying the fact that both the Old testement and new testement create the Bible, I was simply saying that in my experience, much much more emphises was put on the New Testement.

That's because religion is just PR, the church know that if they tried to tout the stuff from the old testament then everyone would attack them for holding extreme views and for being out of date but instead they prefer to retreat to the pseudo comfort of the new testament.

The church only cares about it's public image, that's why they keep changing the goal posts. 500 years ago they said were the center of the universe, then they said the earth was flat, then they said evolution was criminal and wrong.

It seems very convenient that the church no longer follows these ideas doesn't it

[tovaris]

Yes that is true that I as a Christian do believe in Jesus, a Jew ,and true again that I dont believe in judaism. The reason that is so is because the Jews denied Jesus and sent him to death. They persecuted the early Christians so its no wonder that Christians dont believe in Judeism.


Actuly jews were merly triing to prevent a new sect from destabilizing their position.
And let me remind you that the bible isnt exactly hystoricaly corect, the trial at pilat being nonexeption. Jezus, who wasnt fatherd by some spirat, was sent to deth by ponci pilath. And dont forget how catholics felt about luterants...



The popes at that time were evil men who had no intention of following the will of god. They only wanted money and power. Since then the church has under gone a reformation. Men have always fought and they would have fought regardless of what religion they were.
.

If the gods representative is that way i cant emagine what god must be like...
Oh yes the Reformation a nother reason for war!


Im not denying that the crusades were very bad but I dont think you can blame religion : It was just an excuse to get land and wealth.


Now you are begining to see the light, that is what religion is about, especaly a religion that charges you money to get some ort of forgivnes from a guy/gall in the sky...


Obviously I am going to quote the parts I like as I am trying to prove a point. No, I havent read the bible cover to cover and no I dont follow rules such as no shellfish etc. But I do try to follow by the example of Jesus Christ.


You should at leest read The book if you keep quoting it. There are many interesting stuf in the bible, from kings bosting that their penis ib bigger than their fathers, to songs full of lust and sex, and fackts like that adam had two wifes, and that god does not have a gende, also helpfull tips like if you dont find any fish here thry there....


What are you referring to about from1941 to 1945?

WWII happend, and the Wermath was largly assisted by trators called the domobranci, they svare to the firer and god to kill their countryman. They faught backed by the catolic cherch... The most grusome of war ackts on the balcans were commited by this nationalists, fuled bythe cristian religion.


Okay so you dont get your purpose from religion. And yeah I agree that it is off topic.


You are welcome to pm me on the topic if you wish


No I was not familiar with the story of Job. I have never in all ny years of attending mass heard of the story of Job.


Job... i dont know his english name. The guy who had lost everething, house wife kids... and in the end he sits on a pile of manuer and is thanking god...
Suffering and stuf...


Yes the ten commandments are in the old testement but Christians are still expected to follow them. Never had a sermon about the isrealites fleeing from Egypt, to tell the truth. I am not denying the fact that both the Old testement and new testement create the Bible, I was simply saying that in my experience, much much more emphises was put on the New Testement.


So it is more inportant for man to suffer than to be created?

[Achillea]

That's because religion is just PR, the church know that if they tried to tout the stuff from the old testament then everyone would attack them for holding extreme views and for being out of date but instead they prefer to retreat to the pseudo comfort of the new testament.

The church only cares about it's public image, that's why they keep changing the goal posts. 500 years ago they said were the center of the universe, then they said the earth was flat, then they said evolution was criminal and wrong.

It seems very convenient that the church no longer follows these ideas doesn't it
Peoples ideas always change, constantly. Before Colombus documented his voyage to America it was widely accepted that the world was flat.( I know thats not the whole truth but for the sake of argument)
Im not sure of what you are saying: that the church should have just kept the same or continued evolving. Myself, I prefer the changes and hope for many more.
Actuly jews were merly triing to prevent a new sect from destabilizing their position.
And let me remind you that the bible isnt exactly hystoricaly corect, the trial at pilat being nonexeption. Jezus, who wasnt fatherd by some spirat, was sent to deth by ponci pilath. And dont forget how catholics felt about luterants...




If the gods representative is that way i cant emagine what god must be like...
Oh yes the Reformation a nother reason for war!




Now you are begining to see the light, that is what religion is about, especaly a religion that charges you money to get some ort of forgivnes from a guy/gall in the sky...



You should at leest read The book if you keep quoting it. There are many interesting stuf in the bible, from kings bosting that their penis ib bigger than their fathers, to songs full of lust and sex, and fackts like that adam had two wifes, and that god does not have a gende, also helpfull tips like if you dont find any fish here thry there....


WWII happend, and the Wermath was largly assisted by trators called the domobranci, they svare to the firer and god to kill their countryman. They faught backed by the catolic cherch... The most grusome of war ackts on the balcans were commited by this nationalists, fuled bythe cristian religion.



You are welcome to pm me on the topic if you wish



Job... i dont know his english name. The guy who had lost everething, house wife kids... and in the end he sits on a pile of manuer and is thanking god...
Suffering and stuf...



So it is more inportant for man to suffer than to be created?
The Jews cried out for his death, him or the criminal and the crowds chose to kill Jesus. I accept that the Bible isnt a historical account. And no, men are just so evil that they abuse power. Men are full of faults but I think most Chrisrians believe God isnt.
You cant buy Indulgences anymore, they were wrong.
I probably will read the full Bible soon but Im not really quoting the Bible, just saying it how my priests have said it. I think we are kind of going in circles here...,The title of this is DOES Christianity net and overall positive impact on society not DID. I know I shouldnt just be focusing on
just the good but it seems like we are really only looking at the bad things Christianity has done.
Catholics did speak out against the Nazi regime and many aided the Jews, though.

[Vlerchan]

I'm not actually looking to get involved in this discussion but:
You cant buy Indulgences anymore, they were wrong.
I'm not sure about purchasing Indulgences in the 21st Century, but one can certainly involve themselves in much more petty and trivial tasks in order to gain one: like following the Pope on Twitter, maybe. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-get-time-off-in-purgatory-by-following-pope-on-twitter/)

[Harry Smith]

Peoples ideas always change, constantly. Before Colombus documented his voyage to America it was widely accepted that the world was flat.( I know thats not the whole truth but for the sake of argument)
Im not sure of what you are saying: that the church should have just kept the same or continued evolving. Myself, I prefer the changes and hope for many more.

I'm saying that Christianity has consistently been wrong on key issues, such as evolution and creationism,I mean they had this stupid story going around that God made the world in 7 days which is physically impossible since time is a human invention if you get my drift.

Christianity just encourages people to be closed minded and to reject science

[tovaris]

Peoples ideas always change, constantly. Before Colombus documented his voyage to America it was widely accepted that the world was flat.( I know thats not the whole truth but for the sake of argument)
Im not sure of what you are saying: that the church should have just kept the same or continued evolving. Myself, I prefer the changes and hope for many more.

The Jews cried out for his death, him or the criminal and the crowds chose to kill Jesus. I accept that the Bible isnt a historical account. And no, men are just so evil that they abuse power. Men are full of faults but I think most Chrisrians believe God isnt.
You cant buy Indulgences anymore, they were wrong.
I probably will read the full Bible soon but Im not really quoting the Bible, just saying it how my priests have said it. I think we are kind of going in circles here...,The title of this is DOES Christianity net and overall positive impact on society not DID. I know I shouldnt just be focusing on
just the good but it seems like we are really only looking at the bad things Christianity has done.
Catholics did speak out against the Nazi regime and many aided the Jews, though.

From history we learn about today. Christeanety itself is baced on historical mith...
This religion decresed speed of science in the past, and in inhibiing human evolution now!
We are now at an evolutionary point that we need to finaly shed the shakels of strange religions.
Are you femiliar with europes history? What the ofitial chatolic cherce did? And yes there were RARE cases of minoster joining antifashist grups like TIGR, but the overal picture is horifiing.
You seem to be avoiding the points that regard the fabric of this out of date religion.
It has no positive efect on the modern world, and had extremly little in the past (deep past).


I'm saying that Christianity has consistently been wrong on key issues, such as evolution and creationism,I mean they had this stupid story going around that God made the world in 7 days which is physically impossible since time is a human invention if you get my drift.

Dont forget that this same god is both male and female at the same time.





Christianity just encourages people to be closed minded and to reject science

[Achillea]

I'm not actually looking to get involved in this discussion but:

I'm not sure about purchasing Indulgences in the 21st Century, but one can certainly involve themselves in much more petty and trivial tasks in order to gain one: like following the Pope on Twitter, maybe. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-get-time-off-in-purgatory-by-following-pope-on-twitter/)
I think the idea is that if you do a good deed then your time in purgatory will be reduced,or so it originally was, so I guess it makes sense that if you are keeping up to date by following the Catholic celebrations or listening to the pope your time will be reduced but at least its not taking money off people to be used creating luxurious palaces and expensive clothing like it was.
I'm saying that Christianity has consistently been wrong on key issues, such as evolution and creationism,I mean they had this stupid story going around that God made the world in 7 days which is physically impossible since time is a human invention if you get my drift.

Christianity just encourages people to be closed minded and to reject science I think science and religion go hand in hand actually. People can look at the complexity of the world around them and amaze at how beautiful it is. The church has admitted its wrong doings regarding evolution etc. Some people say that the Bible doesn't say How the world was made but Why. I dont think it was ever meant as a scientific book but men interpreted it incorrectly.

From history we learn about today. Christeanety itself is baced on historical mith...
This religion decresed speed of science in the past, and in inhibiing human evolution now!
We are now at an evolutionary point that we need to finaly shed the shakels of strange religions.
Are you femiliar with europes history? What the ofitial chatolic cherce did? And yes there were RARE cases of minoster joining antifashist grups like TIGR, but the overal picture is horifiing.
You seem to be avoiding the points that regard the fabric of this out of date religion.
It has no positive efect on the modern world, and had extremly little in the past. The Catholics were a minority and they did speak out and they were silenced or killed. The Church have admitted that they did plant the seeds of anti-semitism and have appologised on several occasions. But I dont think its fair to say the Church were at as much fault as you are making them out to be. The church has no army of its own and should not be involved in Political matters yet when they dont do anything, people still critisize.
Well I think at this stage its clear that we just need to agree to disagree: You believe that Christianity has never had a positive impact on society and never will and I believe it did, does and will in the future.
As I said before I believe when interpreted correctly it gives people good morals but often men interpreted them to suit their own agenda.

[tovaris]

The Catholics were a minority and they did speak out and they were silenced or killed. The Church have admitted that they did plant the seeds of anti-semitism and have appologised on several occasions. But I dont think its fair to say the Church were at as much fault as you are making them out to be. The church has no army of its own and should not be involved in Political matters yet when they dont do anything, people still critisize.


No they didnt, even the pope didnt speek up and after the war they defended ucranian def squades that faught for the SS from being turned ower to ussr.
Here they even backed the domobrans, aho killed our grate grandparents in the name of the lord with a cross round their neck, and the financial backing of the wermah and catolic churce.
The greek political party the golden dawn is rextremly religious.


Well I think at this stage its clear that we just need to agree to disagree: You believe that Christianity has never had a positive impact on society and never will and I believe it did, does and will in the future.

Whel if you believe that plese present evidance. I keep presenting you with evidance you simply deny by teling me you know little aboit history and les aboit your one faith.


As I said before I believe when interpreted correctly it gives people good morals but often men interpreted them to suit their own agenda.

Good morals need no religion nether do bad morals, if you are a person of good morals religion is conpletly obsolite. If you are a person with bad morals you are extremly likely to use your religion to spread them.

[Outside The Box]

Religion particularity Christianity has set back the human race about 1000 years. And there is no evidence that any of those stories in the bible occurred. And any God that refuses to help people here on earth after they have begged and prayed for his help is either non existent or not my idea of a God.

America...founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. Lets not forget those good ol Christian values...

[Hundred Spirited God]

yes it does,but knowing too much facts about the world can seriously hurt people,thats why god only allows some people to know all the facts,theres some people who have a third eye,and i think its mostly people who have a deep connection with him and really want to help him,ok,think of religion as security from diseases (evil),you go picking the lock and get it open,and all hell breaks loose :(

[Lovelife090994]

Religion particularity Christianity has set back the human race about 1000 years. And there is no evidence that any of those stories in the bible occurred. And any God that refuses to help people here on earth after they have begged and prayed for his help is either non existent or not my idea of a God.

America...founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. Lets not forget those good ol Christian values...

For someone named "Outside The Box", you sure are in one. Christianity isn't like that. Christians aren't like that. 1000 years? Where'd you get that idea?

[tovaris]

For someone named "Outside The Box", you sure are in one. Christianity isn't like that. Christians aren't like that. 1000 years? Where'd you get that idea?

Hebprobably deerived his ide from fackts. Cristeanety has been hindering the advance of science and human evolution since the begining.

[Danny_boi 16]

Apparently not the hardcore anti-gay Catholic type, well that apparently USED to exist, not long ago...

The hardcore anti-gay Christians only had a majority in the United States. And real Christian would tell you that love and compassion is the way. The Church never condemned gay people, just action they thought to be feminine. Christianity has been very beneficial to our modern society.

[Achillea]

Hebprobably deerived his ide from fackts. Cristeanety has been hindering the advance of science and human evolution since the begining.
What facts might these be? And I disagree that Christianity has hindered it. Science has always met opposition and it wasnt always the fault of religion. If your theory is correct then how come the Middle East has some of the most underdeveloped and human rights lacking societies in the world. How come African countries that dont or havent until recently followed christianity are so far behind. How come when Christians came to areas without Christianity their weapons were stronger than the natives. Why is it that Christian countries are the most developed if "Christianity is hindering science". Im sorry but there is no reasonable evidence to suggest that Christianity has held back science but to the contrary. Even still I believe that religion has no influence on science.

[tovaris]

What facts might these be? And I disagree that Christianity has hindered it. Science has always met opposition and it wasnt always the fault of religion. If your theory is correct then how come the Middle East has some of the most underdeveloped and human rights lacking societies in the world. How come African countries that dont or havent until recently followed christianity are so far behind. How come when Christians came to areas without Christianity their weapons were stronger than the natives. Why is it that Christian countries are the most developed if "Christianity is hindering science". Im sorry but there is no reasonable evidence to suggest that Christianity has held back science but to the contrary. Even still I believe that religion has no influence on science.

The midle est is the cratel of cristeanety btw. And islams scolers gave us conpleks mathematikal knowlage that aloved seferers to rech america.
Etiopia... the countiy with the longest tradition of independance in afica, cristian. And to remid you befroe the arival of cristian colonists we had great empires in africa.
Because cristians are happy to take things rom others and use them to their advantage, they took people at a chep price fromnafrocaand sold the much higher price later, they took arabian knowlage....betc. etc. (Gun powder was invented by the chonese)
Wepons of the cristian armies are also so much stronger because they crawe war and are constantly in one, they came to south america with the intention of war and of course concured the pece loving peoples of the aztek and inka...
No influence on science seriously.... remember eppur si muove...

[Harry Smith]

What facts might these be? And I disagree that Christianity has hindered it. Science has always met opposition and it wasnt always the fault of religion. If your theory is correct then how come the Middle East has some of the most underdeveloped and human rights lacking societies in the world. How come African countries that dont or havent until recently followed christianity are so far behind. How come when Christians came to areas without Christianity their weapons were stronger than the natives. Why is it that Christian countries are the most developed if "Christianity is hindering science". Im sorry but there is no reasonable evidence to suggest that Christianity has held back science but to the contrary. Even still I believe that religion has no influence on science.

Why did Christianity arrest people for saying the earth wasn't flat?

[Achillea]

The midle est is the cratel of cristeanety btw. And islams scolers gave us conpleks mathematikal knowlage that aloved seferers to rech america.
Etiopia... the countiy with the longest tradition of independance in afica, cristian. And to remid you befroe the arival of cristian colonists we had great empires in africa.
Because cristians are happy to take things rom others and use them to their advantage, they took people at a chep price fromnafrocaand sold the much higher price later, they took arabian knowlage....betc. etc. (Gun powder was invented by the chonese)
Wepons of the cristian armies are also so much stronger because they crawe war and are constantly in one, they came to south america with the intention of war and of course concured the pece loving peoples of the aztek and inka...
No influence on science seriously.... remember eppur si muove...
You mean to say that because christians love war, love to take things from other and love to kill, thats why they advanced. Then what about the Celts? They loved war, killing and stealing but they had their own Celtic Gods. And the Romans? They had great armies and stole things and killed yet they persecuted the Christians because they followed their own pantheon of Gods. The Aztecs were not peace loving, the conquitstadors used that to their advantage. Men all over the world fight and kill and steal and hurt and exploit. And have always done so. Christianity didnt change that. All the Europeans at that time were Christians and many of them couldnt even understand what the mass was about as it was in latin and they followed it blindly so you may aswell just be saying the Europeans did this and that. I know that the Middle East is the cradle of christianity and islam and judaism. I said that religion has no influence on science ie present tense. Do you think there are scientists who will ever look at the Churches beliefs nowadays when considering whether or not to publish their findings?

[Harry Smith]

You mean to say that because christians love war, love to take things from other and love to kill, thats why they advanced. Then what about the Celts? They loved war, killing and stealing but they had their own Celtic Gods. And the Romans? They had great armies and stole things and killed yet they persecuted the Christians because they followed their own pantheon of Gods. The Aztecs were not peace loving, the conquitstadors used that to their advantage. Men all over the world fight and kill and steal and hurt and exploit. And have always done so. Christianity didnt change that. All the Europeans at that time were Christians and many of them couldnt even understand what the mass was about as it was in latin and they followed it blindly so you may aswell just be saying the Europeans did this and that. I know that the Middle East is the cradle of christianity and islam and judaism. I said that religion has no influence on science ie present tense. Do you think there are scientists who will ever look at the Churches beliefs nowadays when considering whether or not to publish their findings?

I love that the main point of your argument is to blame other parts of society and claim that everyone did it so it must be fine...

You've got religious people in America who advocate teaching creationism and creationism alone in schools, that's not right- you can't use a story book to teach teenagers about science and biology

[tovaris]

You mean to say that because christians love war, love to take things from other and love to kill, thats why they advanced. Then what about the Celts? They loved war, killing and stealing but they had their own Celtic Gods. And the Romans? They had great armies and stole things and killed yet they persecuted the Christians because they followed their own pantheon of Gods. The Aztecs were not peace loving, the conquitstadors used that to their advantage. Men all over the world fight and kill and steal and hurt and exploit. And have always done so. Christianity didnt change that. All the Europeans at that time were Christians and many of them couldnt even understand what the mass was about as it was in latin and they followed it blindly so you may aswell just be saying the Europeans did this and that. I know that the Middle East is the cradle of christianity and islam and judaism. I said that religion has no influence on science ie present tense. Do you think there are scientists who will ever look at the Churches beliefs nowadays when considering whether or not to publish their findings?

Romans vers cristians, crisetenety is what breught rome down...
Of yes let inslave entire peoples using our religionnand tham blame hem for being inslaved.
Again you make abondendly clearnč how discrimenating and agresive this religion is!
Actuly there was this wery famois catolik guy who transplanted monkey heads for his religion...
And still it moves, your forgetting galileo a bit.

I love that the main point of your argument is to blame other parts of society and claim that everyone did it so it must be fine...

[Lovelife090994]

Hebprobably deerived his ide from fackts. Cristeanety has been hindering the advance of science and human evolution since the begining.

Very bad spelling, maybe typing too fast. Many Christians support science, you can't say all do or don't because you cannot pass judgement on the whole group for past actions, sins and the select few who did this or that.

[tovaris]

Very bad spelling, maybe typing too fast. Many Christians support science, you can't say all do or don't because you cannot pass judgement on the whole group for past actions, sins and the select few who did this or that.

If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.

Dod you read the bible? If ones ansesters have sined all their childrem and their childrens children must suffer. If he has sined and condemed him to deth the whole grup should be condemed.... i am merly drawing from their own beliefs.

[Lovelife090994]

If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.

Dod you read the bible? If ones ansesters have sined all their childrem and their childrens children must suffer. If he has sined and condemed him to deth the whole grup should be condemed.... i am merly drawing from their own beliefs.

True, children do reap the benefits and or consequences from their parents and ancestors but to blame all of Christianity and Christians for one thing or more from past sins still makes little sense.

[Achillea]

I love that the main point of your argument is to blame other parts of society and claim that everyone did it so it must be fine...

You've got religious people in America who advocate teaching creationism and creationism alone in schools, that's not right- you can't use a story book to teach teenagers about science and biology No you didnt get my point at all: You have blamed Christians for loving war and stealing and hurting others and said these are Christian traits when infact, they are not Christian but to be seen in ALL MAN KIND. Therefore, Christianity has Nothing to do with it, its just human characteristics, and Im sure there is significant evidence from your all knowing science to prove that. You also arent taking into consideration my other posts which say that the bible shows not How the world was made but Why. It isnt a scientific account of the creation of the World.

Romans vers cristians, crisetenety is what breught rome down...
Of yes let inslave entire peoples using our religionnand tham blame hem for being inslaved.
Again you make abondendly clearnč how discrimenating and agresive this religion is!
Actuly there was this wery famois catolik guy who transplanted monkey heads for his religion...
And still it moves, your forgetting galileo a bit.
As I have pointed out in the above comment, violence, agression, theft, slavery etc. are not characteristics of Christianity but of all man kind. Romans werent Christians until almost the end of their empire and that is beside the point, around the world, before Christianity there has been this agression of human and that is the truth. About the Galileo bit, it wasnt just the Christians who believed like the church. He wasnt the first person to think of this idea, nor could he still fully prove it, probably because it wasnt fully correct. The church has offered many appologies and Galileo did everything he could to anger the church and the people he needed on his side the most. Most people wouldnt have believed him anyway. But what about today?

[Harry Smith]

No you didnt get my point at all: You have blamed Christians for loving war and stealing and hurting others and said these are Christian traits when infact, they are not Christian but to be seen in ALL MAN KIND. Therefore, Christianity has Nothing to do with it, its just human characteristics, and Im sure there is significant evidence from your all knowing science to prove that. You also arent taking into consideration my other posts which say that the bible shows not How the world was made but Why. It isnt a scientific account of the creation of the World.


As I have pointed out in the above comment, violence, agression, theft, slavery etc. are not characteristics of Christianity but of all man kind. Romans werent Christians until almost the end of their empire and that is beside the point, around the world, before Christianity there has been this agression of human and that is the truth. About the Galileo bit, it wasnt just the Christians who believed like the church. He wasnt the first person to think of this idea, nor could he still fully prove it, probably because it wasnt fully correct. The church has offered many appologies and Galileo did everything he could to anger the church and the people he needed on his side the most. Most people wouldnt have believed him anyway. But what about today?

This is why I hate talking to religious people about their religion because you go to such extreme lengths to cover up and manipulate the horror that religion and in turn Christianity has done to world, you just try and dismiss it as being a result of mankinds overall problem.

I can understand why Christians hated Galileo- he proved that their demonic cult was a joke. You also blamed Galileo for being correct about many scientific theories yet not the church for endorsing stupidity

[tovaris]

True, children do reap the benefits and or consequences from their parents and ancestors but to blame all of Christianity and Christians for one thing or more from past sins still makes little sense.

Read the bible again nad get back to me on that point, if you would be so kind.





As I have pointed out in the above comment, violence, agression, theft, slavery etc. are not characteristics of Christianity but of all man kind. Romans werent Christians until almost the end of their empire and that is beside the point, around the world, before Christianity there has been this agression of human and that is the truth. About the Galileo bit, it wasnt just the Christians who believed like the church. He wasnt the first person to think of this idea, nor could he still fully prove it, probably because it wasnt fully correct. The church has offered many appologies and Galileo did everything he could to anger the church and the people he needed on his side the most. Most people wouldnt have believed him anyway. But what about today?

So you agre that criesteanety has nothing to do qith peace and all those other thongs it propagates?
Yes but than people dodnt thy to cover ot up as sme godly and loving thing to to they simply caled it war, not cruaade or whatever.... cristans as you have shown has don all sorts of horible things and they say it is caritas and sth... i mean seriously
Einchent egiptians have proven the earth was round and they have even calculated its volumen to a stuning acurecy. The enchant greeks partly accepted the heliocentric sistem... so why couldnt cristians accept progres? Why did the lock a man up for propagating prograsive ideas? Wery cristian of them endeed! Actions like these show the bests true face. (And in his head there wil be the number of six threescore and six)
Evan today cristian organisations slow down progres of science and the society.! That is fackt (remember again of the greek political party golden dawn)

No you didnt get my point at all: You have blamed Christians for loving war and stealing and hurting others and said these are Christian traits when infact, they are not Christian but to be seen in ALL MAN KIND. Therefore, Christianity has Nothing to do with it, its just human characteristics, and Im sure there is significant evidence from your all knowing science to prove that. You also arent taking into consideration my other posts which say that the bible shows not How the world was made but Why. It isnt a scientific account of the creation of the World.



Sory i dont understand are you all of a siden claming that there are no human cristians? I havent seen any tigers going into churce, i have only seen sheep dressed as man.
No nothing to do with it, WAR is propagated in their holy book! Isnt that vidence enouth they have plenty to do with war...
Lets kill the first person who walkes frew that dor just to oner HIS name. And than your daughter walkes frew the dor, now you have to kill kčher because you made a promise to god. This is an actual event that ocures in the bible, which you havent read, and pf course she is killed.


This is why I hate talking to religious people about their religion because you go to such extreme lengths to cover up and manipulate the horror that religion and in turn Christianity has done to world, you just try and dismiss it as being a result of mankinds overall problem.

I can understand why Christians hated Galileo- he proved that their demonic cult was a joke. You also blamed Galileo for being correct about many scientific theories yet not the church for endorsing stupidity

And read again what harry has said

[Sugaree]

Christianity could have an overall net positive impact on society if its morals weren't misconstrued for the wrong purposes. Overall, I agree with Christianity on its core principal morals; however, it is certain people that obviously misinterpret what those morals actually mean that has given Christianity a bad name in both past and recent history.

Religion particularity Christianity has set back the human race about 1000 years. And there is no evidence that any of those stories in the bible occurred. And any God that refuses to help people here on earth after they have begged and prayed for his help is either non existent or not my idea of a God.

America...founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. Lets not forget those good ol Christian values...

So it's not your idea of a God...ok, that's fine. That just means Christianity isn't a religion for you. So does that give you a right to sit there, be an armchair activist, and criticize? No. Also, there is plenty of evidence that the Bible can be scientifically backed up. Just look here (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Scientific-Proof-of-Bible.php). I spent all four years of high school studying the Bible and the evidence that Christians claim to back it up, and most of it holds up to be true. And this is coming from a Mahayana Buddhist.

Also, you mention how America was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. You conveniently forgot that America was originally founded by the British Empire, who ruled America for years before the War for Independence. Slavery didn't come to America until AFTER the War for Independence, so get your facts straight. Slavery is not a Christian value, nor has it ever been one. Sure, there have been Christians who have owned slaves, but this does not implicate that all Christians, past and present, endorse slave ownership. Someone said earlier, for someone "Outside the Box", you sure put yourself in one.

[darthearth]

Why did Christianity arrest people for saying the earth wasn't flat?

When did this happen? Aristotle's view of a spherical Earth was the norm for the entire history of Christianity.

And I reiterate my observation people are arguing about the definition of "Christianity" on this thread in attempting to answer the OP. One side emphasizes certain Christian historical behavior and Old Testament law, the other the fundamental Christian message. Rather fruitless to argue apples to oranges isn't it?

[Kahn]

The modern Christian faith is, to me at least, simply idolatry. If people find.comfort and happiness following the faith that way, I don't see why that's a problem.

[Sugaree]

The modern Christian faith is, to me at least, simply idolatry. If people find.comfort and happiness following the faith that way, I don't see why that's a problem.

But you don't see it in the immature minds of some of the posters in this thread. They all think Christianity is some demonic presence that must be done away with and that both it and anyone who follows its teachings are trying to set the entire human race back by eons.

[Kahn]

But you don't see it in the immature minds of some of the posters in this thread. They all think Christianity is some demonic presence that must be done away with and that both it and anyone who follows its teachings are trying to set the entire human race back by eons.

Their worldview is the product of the society they grew up in. I'm guilty of once thinking the exact same way they do. We can say one thing or another, but in the end, an individual must take it upon themselves to put an effort towards understanding the philosophies. They have this mundane idea of God, one that would appall many original theologians, Christian or non Christian.

I just think that if people find a way to live a comfortable, happy life following the modern faiths that worship idols, good for them. At least they've found a way of life they can continue unencumbered.

[Achillea]

This is why I hate talking to religious people about their religion because you go to such extreme lengths to cover up and manipulate the horror that religion and in turn Christianity has done to world, you just try and dismiss it as being a result of mankinds overall problem.

I can understand why Christians hated Galileo- he proved that their demonic cult was a joke. You also blamed Galileo for being correct about many scientific theories yet not the church for endorsing stupidityI could say that I hate talking to Atheists about their lack of religion, but I dont. My best friend is an Atheist and I have had plenty of civil talks about religion with her. I am going to "extreme lengths" to try to prove my point of view but you continously dismiss and ignore my point. You refuse to be civil. You insult me by calling my religion, my beliefs, my God just a demonic cult and its demonic leader. I have clearly displayed to you that violence is mans problem not christianity's yet you ignore my point even though it has solid evidence. Galileo didnt prove that the we move around the sun and the sun is stationary, let alone that my religion is a joke. Christians accept Galileos theories, its just you who cant accept that we are not clinging onto outdated beliefs and therfore being hypocrites. Then you say that the Church should be seperate from the state, shouldnt interfere with society yet when they "dont do anything" you give out stink again. You seem well able to call my religion a demonic cult on the internet, but so what? I dont care, even though it is seriously insulting and hurtful, I can forgive you because I am Christian and I follow my religion. It has taught me these morals and your morals seem to be: Insult others and hurt others. Well thats nice. And of course, you can do nice things in the real world but youre real character comes out now? This is what you are yet you call others agressive? You try to make me feel guilty for having this belief, which I believe is true, yet one of your arguments is about a person being forced to retract their beliefs, which he thought was true? Where are the standards for him and the stanards for me?
You know that the errors of Christianity come about when people interpret the Bible literally but you seem quite alright with literal meanings when proving your points.
Im sorry but this was meant to be a friendly debate but it seems to me that atheists have been doing all the insulting, but I wont group all Atheists just because of a bad experience with some, even if they manage to do it to Christianity. I have told you that Most Christians havent read the Bible but only know what they are told at their mass, which obviously wont be about the literal bad bits, yet you seem to think that Ministers and Priests all over the world have been scouring the Bible to find the most dreadful bits when taken word for word and encouraged this behaviour in their parishes. Seriously no one knows these Bible sayings as a result so you cannot blame evil behaviour by ordinary Christians on the Bible or their religions. Its the men who are bad.
So I too hate this disscusion because it is full of your unnessacary hatred of a religion that promotes Love and Peace regardless of what you say..(Que "The bible is full of hatred "spew.)

[PinkFloyd]

I think that Christianity can be good in SOME ways because it brings families together during that holidays and all that.

However, religion as a whole is bad in ways that involve death and hatred. Remember the Holocaust? How about the Armenian Genocide? Islam is now branded as a giant terrorist organization to some ignorant people because of past terrorist attacks.

The Westboro Baptist Church bases all their bullshit on Christianity (even though barely any of it follows the bible.)

My point is that yes, Religion is nice on a small scale, but once you look at it as a whole, you have 6 million dead people killed for their beliefs and ONLY their beliefs.

[Harry Smith]

I could say that I hate talking to Atheists about their lack of religion, but I dont. My best friend is an Atheist and I have had plenty of civil talks about religion with her. I am going to "extreme lengths" to try to prove my point of view but you continously dismiss and ignore my point. You refuse to be civil. You insult me by calling my religion, my beliefs, my God just a demonic cult and its demonic leader. I have clearly displayed to you that violence is mans problem not christianity's yet you ignore my point even though it has solid evidence. Galileo didnt prove that the we move around the sun and the sun is stationary, let alone that my religion is a joke. Christians accept Galileos theories, its just you who cant accept that we are not clinging onto outdated beliefs and therfore being hypocrites. Then you say that the Church should be seperate from the state, shouldnt interfere with society yet when they "dont do anything" you give out stink again. You seem well able to call my religion a demonic cult on the internet, but so what? I dont care, even though it is seriously insulting and hurtful, I can forgive you because I am Christian and I follow my religion. It has taught me these morals and your morals seem to be: Insult others and hurt others. Well thats nice. And of course, you can do nice things in the real world but youre real character comes out now? This is what you are yet you call others agressive? You try to make me feel guilty for having this belief, which I believe is true, yet one of your arguments is about a person being forced to retract their beliefs, which he thought was true? Where are the standards for him and the stanards for me?
You know that the errors of Christianity come about when people interpret the Bible literally but you seem quite alright with literal meanings when proving your points.
Im sorry but this was meant to be a friendly debate but it seems to me that atheists have been doing all the insulting, but I wont group all Atheists just because of a bad experience with some, even if they manage to do it to Christianity. I have told you that Most Christians havent read the Bible but only know what they are told at their mass, which obviously wont be about the literal bad bits, yet you seem to think that Ministers and Priests all over the world have been scouring the Bible to find the most dreadful bits when taken word for word and encouraged this behaviour in their parishes. Seriously no one knows these Bible sayings as a result so you cannot blame evil behaviour by ordinary Christians on the Bible or their religions. Its the men who are bad.
So I too hate this disscusion because it is full of your unnessacary hatred of a religion that promotes Love and Peace regardless of what you say..(Que "The bible is full of hatred "spew.)

So you haven't read the very holy book that governs your everyday life? You just rely on your priest/vicar etc to tell you the information, surely shouldn't you read it rather than having it spoon fed to you?

Name one good thing Christianity has done for society?

[Stronk Serb]

What about countless peaceful Slavic, Romuva, Suomenusko, Inca, Aztec and Maya pagans Christians forcefully converted? It was either that or the pyre except the latter three who were victims of a genocide. Don't say that it's not Christian, they did it in the name of your god, it happened because of Christianity. The Jihads were far more merciful towards Christians even though the majority of the Crusaders raped, looted and ransacked everything Muslim. Christians burned their own brothers of the faith because they interpreted the Bible differently, what I am talking about are the Bogomilist (peaceful for sure), Lollard, Fraticelli, Nestorian, Iconoclast and Waldensian "heresies".

[Lovelife090994]

So you haven't read the very holy book that governs your everyday life? You just rely on your priest/vicar etc to tell you the information, surely shouldn't you read it rather than having it spoon fed to you?

Name one good thing Christianity has done for society?

Catholic and Protestant groups make up some of the biggest charities in the world. Many churches help their communities and estranged youth.

[Harry Smith]

Catholic and Protestant groups make up some of the biggest charities in the world. Many churches help their communities and estranged youth.

That's not exclusive to religion, many groups have that despite being non-religious. It's not just religious groups who help others, look at Oxfam and other charities who help all around the world. Religions like Islam actually offer a lot more for the community than Christianity.

I also think that the last place a young person would want to go to if they were in trouble would be the church, especially the catholic church

[Achillea]

So you haven't read the very holy book that governs your everyday life? You just rely on your priest/vicar etc to tell you the information, surely shouldn't you read it rather than having it spoon fed to you?

Name one good thing Christianity has done for society?
I think that this basically sums up my previous post: Ignoring ALL of my points, focus on something that has already been clarified in a desperate attempt to show me up and to avoid confronting the points I made. Me not having fully red the Bible doesnt make me less Christian, most people havent read the Bible fully. Having a sermon and attending mass isnt being spoon fed at all. Stop beating around the bush, you should at least respond to the points I made in my previous post.

[Harry Smith]

I think that this basically sums up my previous post: Ignoring ALL of my points, focus on something that has already been clarified in a desperate attempt to show me up and to avoid confronting the points I made. Me not having fully red the Bible doesnt make me less Christian, most people havent read the Bible fully. Having a sermon and attending mass isnt being spoon fed at all. Stop beating around the bush, you should at least respond to the points I made in my previous post.

So in accusing me of beating around the bush you in to did it,

I couldn't make any sense of your last post, it was full of religious crap and lacked any actual point apart from defending the church for arresting a man of science. Your points are vague and disjointed at best and like nearly every christian you act like you're better than me because you believe in an invisible being that has never been proven in any way, shape or form.

Your religion is based on a story book

[Achillea]

So in accusing me of beating around the bush you in to did it,

I couldn't make any sense of your last post, it was full of religious crap and lacked any actual point apart from defending the church for arresting a man of science. Your points are vague and disjointed at best and like nearly every christian you act like you're better than me because you believe in an invisible being that has never been proven in any way, shape or form.

Your religion is based on a story book
What a lame excuse.....and come back: Your religion is based on a story book?Ouch...And no, You seem to think that is all right to call a person religion a demonic cult and avoid dealing with my points. I dont think I have acted like Im better than you.....can you please back that up for me? If you mean by forgiving you for insult my religion, than no, its just called being a Christian or a good person. That is what Christianity has taught me, thats a positive impact right?

[Harry Smith]

What a lame excuse.....and come back: Your religion is based on a story book?Ouch...And no, You seem to think that is all right to call a person religion a demonic cult and avoid dealing with my points. I dont think I have acted like Im better than you.....can you please back that up for me? If you mean by forgiving you for insult my religion, than no, its just called being a Christian or a good person. That is what Christianity has taught me, thats a positive impact right?

Yep- it's based on a story book which is an invention of man and has about 101 factual errors in the same chapter. Both the old and new testament are complete bollocks and expose the flaws in religion.

It's perfectly fine to call a cult a cult...

Well thats nice. And of course, you can do nice things in the real world but youre real character comes out now?

So I too hate this disscusion because it is full of your unnessacary hatred of a religion

You seem well able to call my religion a demonic cult on the internet, but so what?

Oh wait- so if Christianity is based on foreignness does this mean that the Africans will have to forgive the white christian masters who came over and butchered them in the name of Christ, or the members of the DRC in South Africa who promoted racism, or the women unable to become bishops in Britain because of their gender, all these people have managed to forgive Christianity for it's ills and wrong doings

[tovaris]

I think that this basically sums up my previous post: Ignoring ALL of my points, focus on something that has already been clarified in a desperate attempt to show me up and to avoid confronting the points I made. Me not having fully red the Bible doesnt make me less Christian, most people havent read the Bible fully. Having a sermon and attending mass isnt being spoon fed at all. Stop beating around the bush, you should at least respond to the points I made in my previous post.

So not knowing wht the basis of your religion is aboit is ok, bit when confronted by facts from the Book you simply deny them as not being a part if the religion built around said book...

What a lame excuse.....and come back: Your religion is based on a story book?Ouch...And no, You seem to think that is all right to call a person religion a demonic cult and avoid dealing with my points. I dont think I have acted like Im better than you.....can you please back that up for me? If you mean by forgiving you for insult my religion, than no, its just called being a Christian or a good person. That is what Christianity has taught me, thats a positive impact right?

A demonik cult is a religion. You should know that. Ans so are as religions defined difrent sekts loke cristeanety.

Yep- it's based on a story book which is an invention of man and has about 101 factual errors in the same chapter. Both the old and new testament are complete bollocks and expose the flaws in religion.


Sory to bother you but it was created by man not a man ;). Even one same chapter could have many authors...

What about countless peaceful Slavic, Romuva, Suomenusko, Inca, Aztec and Maya pagans Christians forcefully converted? It was either that or the pyre except the latter three who were victims of a genocide. Don't say that it's not Christian, they did it in the name of your god, it happened because of Christianity. The Jihads were far more merciful towards Christians even though the majority of the Crusaders raped, looted and ransacked everything Muslim. Christians burned their own brothers of the faith because they interpreted the Bible differently, what I am talking about are the Bogomilist (peaceful for sure), Lollard, Fraticelli, Nestorian, Iconoclast and Waldensian "heresies".

You are welcome to read again what mike has to say

[ScarySouthernMan]

Reading only the OP, I'd say that Christianity is the scourge of the world! People have been persecuted, wars started, and lives have been ruined all because of it. Christianity would be great, on terms of peace, if people studied and accepted the words of the Bible instead of taking the Preacher's word on it. But if that happened, everybody would be poor, uneducated, depressed, and lacking any form of ambition.

If you don't like what I say, I ask you to read the Bible and come back.

Edit: Religion is somebody elses beliefs fed to you, I assure you that if you could approach the Bible with an open, unspoilt mind; you would have a very, very different view on the subject.

[Kahn]

What about countless peaceful Slavic, Romuva, Suomenusko, Inca, Aztec and Maya pagans Christians forcefully converted? It was either that or the pyre except the latter three who were victims of a genocide. Don't say that it's not Christian, they did it in the name of your god, it happened because of Christianity.

On the United States genocide of the Native American tribes, their droppings of the atomic bombs, their pseudo-wars (most notably Vietnam and Iraq) in which hundreds of thousands of Americans lost their lives deployed overseas, and where millions of indigenous peoples were slaughtered in the wake of our terrible force;

Don't say that's not Freedom, they did it in the name Freedom, it happened because of Freedom. Obviously, the solution to end this cycle of massacre is to get rid of Freedom, according to your logic concerning Christianity.

[Achillea]

Yep- it's based on a story book which is an invention of man and has about 101 factual errors in the same chapter. Both the old and new testament are complete bollocks and expose the flaws in religion.

It's perfectly fine to call a cult a cult...







Oh wait- so if Christianity is based on foreignness does this mean that the Africans will have to forgive the white christian masters who came over and butchered them in the name of Christ, or the members of the DRC in South Africa who promoted racism, or the women unable to become bishops in Britain because of their gender, all these people have managed to forgive Christianity for it's ills and wrong doings Well the Christianity has taught forgiveness, but its up to an individual to truley forgive. I dont understand the unexplained quotes?

So not knowing wht the basis of your religion is aboit is ok, bit when confronted by facts from the Book you simply deny them as not being a part if the religion built around said book...



A demonik cult is a religion. You should know that. Ans so are as religions defined difrent sekts loke cristeanety.



Sory to bother you but it was created by man not a man ;). Even one same chapter could have many authors...


I genuinley have no idea what you are trying to ask me? I know the basis of my religion, Jesus Christ of Nazerath and his teachings. If its in the book its in the book but as I have said before, Catholics believe in teaching from priests and the bible. Im not deny their existance but their relevence. Catholics will never hear those verses unless they study the bible, which is a thing that mainly protestants do. Again no one has tackled my argument.
About the other topic, we have already discussed it.

[Lovelife090994]

That's not exclusive to religion, many groups have that despite being non-religious. It's not just religious groups who help others, look at Oxfam and other charities who help all around the world. Religions like Islam actually offer a lot more for the community than Christianity.

I also think that the last place a young person would want to go to if they were in trouble would be the church, especially the catholic church

Really? The Catholic Church is not an enemy and I think a teen with little would be more than glad to have help be it from a Catholic or Muslim.
Islamists nearly outnumber Christians in mnay parts of the world. I am not surprised by the idea or fact of Islamists doing just as much i not more charity than Christian churches.

[Lovelife090994]

Reading only the OP, I'd say that Christianity is the scourge of the world! People have been persecuted, wars started, and lives have been ruined all because of it. Christianity would be great, on terms of peace, if people studied and accepted the words of the Bible instead of taking the Preacher's word on it. But if that happened, everybody would be poor, uneducated, depressed, and lacking any form of ambition.

If you don't like what I say, I ask you to read the Bible and come back.

Edit: Religion is somebody elses beliefs fed to you, I assure you that if you could approach the Bible with an open, unspoilt mind; you would have a very, very different view on the subject.

You do realize that all people and groups hav dealt with violence or dealt out violence of some sort right? Whether it is strict Orthodox Christians, Radical False Muslims, Atheistic Communist Governments, Political Parties, et cetera, all have their good and bad sides. Christianity has had its message distorted by many but it is not a scourge. Violence and hatred is a scourge.

[Harry Smith]

Really? The Catholic Church is not an enemy and I think a teen with little would be more than glad to have help be it from a Catholic or Muslim.
Islamists nearly outnumber Christians in mnay parts of the world. I am not surprised by the idea or fact of Islamists doing just as much i not more charity than Christian churches.

Not in Britain, the Catholic church has been at the center of a high number of scandals involving child sex abuses and the cover up of it by the church meaning that there isn't much trust.

In Islam one of the five pillars is the idea that a well off Muslim gives 2.5% of their salary to charity, I think that's a very good idea and actually puts it in stone

[tovaris]

Well the Christianity has taught forgiveness, but its up to an individual to truley forgive. I dont understand the unexplained quotes?

I genuinley have no idea what you are trying to ask me? I know the basis of my religion, Jesus Christ of Nazerath and his teachings. If its in the book its in the book but as I have said before, Catholics believe in teaching from priests and the bible. Im not deny their existance but their relevence. Catholics will never hear those verses unless they study the bible, which is a thing that mainly protestants do. Again no one has tackled my argument.
About the other topic, we have already discussed it.

So poesans aen cristians? Or is it the other way around? And chatolics arent cristians?
So what you are saing to me that your religion is based on some stuf an old pedofile tels you is true?
So again i say you and your people quote the book and use it for... (i rather not say what) and stil have no idea what is writen in it! Interesting... i newer thaught of the religion i was forcefuly made a part of in this way.... you have opend my eies to new horizons of the pointlesnes and stupidety of sait mithologie.
What argimente have you made, that cristeanety os agresive? (Much more than islam,that teaches pece and charety, i might ad)

You do realize that all people and groups hav dealt with violence or dealt out violence of some sort right? Whether it is strict Orthodox Christians, Radical False Muslims, Atheistic Communist Governments, Political Parties, et cetera, all have their good and bad sides. Christianity has had its message distorted by many but it is not a scourge. Violence and hatred is a scourge.

Looking strictla by fackt the teachings of jezus alone are perfectly fine (jezus ofcourse beind a erly communist) but the religion of cristeanety and how it makes itself how it makes its own rules and edits beliefs those things are the religious part that is wrong.

[saea97]

I think atheists have a lot of right to be angry given the damage done, in the past and today, to the world by religion and by Christianity specifically. And no, I'm not saying that all you contemporary and modern Christians are to blame, but it's also not excusable purely by virtue of being done by past Christians. Religion has done irrevocable bad in the past, continues to cause harm today and any positive aspect is usually merely a personal one.

[StoppingTime]

This entire thread seems to just be people bickering over the following generalized points:
1. "The Bible is fake there is no god/God it's all just a book written by man Jesus wasn't special
2. If you don't follow the Bible to the letter you're not really religious. OH! But, the Bible is cool about slavery and treating women terribly, so you're either a misogynist who loves slavery at you're core, or you aren't really Christian.
3. Christianity isn't important, look at all the other organizations doing so much in this world. All Christianity is is a religion filled with perverted priests and people who hate homosexuality, because remember, the Bible says you can't be gay, and you have to follow the Bible to the letter, otherwise, as mentioned, you're not really Christian.
_______

And amidst all that bickering where have you gotten in this debate? Have you disproved God? Have you proven religion exists? No, and guess what, you probably never will. That's why for the most part, religious debates are boring and just turn into this.

Now the actual OP (which albeit is quiet subjective) was asking whether you believed that it has left a net positive or negative impact on society. It wasn't asking you to just disprove Christianity entirely by saying it's not real, it wasn't asking you to just talk about how there have been priests who are child molesters, yet these last few pages seem to have forgotten that. So please get back on topic and stop arguing over who's better than who, why Christianity is flawed, etc. You're on the internet: you can yell as loud as you like at your screen and all the other person has to do is type "no," and look, your message for/against Christianity's gone nowhere.

[tovaris]

This entire thread seems to just be people bickering over the following generalized points:
1. "The Bible is fake there is no god/God it's all just a book written by man Jesus wasn't special
2. If you don't follow the Bible to the letter you're not really religious. OH! But, the Bible is cool about slavery and treating women terribly, so you're either a misogynist who loves slavery at you're core, or you aren't really Christian.
3. Christianity isn't important, look at all the other organizations doing so much in this world. All Christianity is is a religion filled with perverted priests and people who hate homosexuality, because remember, the Bible says you can't be gay, and you have to follow the Bible to the letter, otherwise, as mentioned, you're not really Christian.
_______

And amidst all that bickering where have you gotten in this debate? Have you disproved God? Have you proven religion exists? No, and guess what, you probably never will. That's why for the most part, religious debates are boring and just turn into this.

Now the actual OP (which albeit is quiet subjective) was asking whether you believed that it has left a net positive or negative impact on society. It wasn't asking you to just disprove Christianity entirely by saying it's not real, it wasn't asking you to just talk about how there have been priests who are child molesters, yet these last few pages seem to have forgotten that. So please get back on topic and stop arguing over who's better than who, why Christianity is flawed, etc. You're on the internet: you can yell as loud as you like at your screen and all the other person has to do is type "no," and look, your message for/against Christianity's gone nowhere.

Tel me than dear all powerfull global mod, how is someone suposed to debate the negative/positive efect of something if one is cut of at the root of the debated subject? Whel you do to the root pull it out show it to the person who had cut it and when they have seen how it looks you show the AGAIN what efect the thing has had.

[Lovelife090994]

Not in Britain, the Catholic church has been at the center of a high number of scandals involving child sex abuses and the cover up of it by the church meaning that there isn't much trust.

In Islam one of the five pillars is the idea that a well off Muslim gives 2.5% of their salary to charity, I think that's a very good idea and actually puts it in stone

I cannot speak for the Catholic Church and I am not Catholic but I look at the good they do. Do you honestly think they condone the bad? No, they don't. So far all the atheists I have met are either rude to the religious or against those atheists who are against the religious. Why do you feel so combative to religion? We've gone off topic, so why the rage? And why is it that now you've put yourself in the stereotypical bubble?

[Achillea]

So poesans aen cristians? Or is it the other way around? And chatolics arent cristians?
So what you are saing to me that your religion is based on some stuf an old pedofile tels you is true?
So again i say you and your people quote the book and use it for... (i rather not say what) and stil have no idea what is writen in it! Interesting... i newer thaught of the religion i was forcefuly made a part of in this way.... you have opend my eies to new horizons of the pointlesnes and stupidety of sait mithologie.
What argimente have you made, that cristeanety os agresive? (Much more than islam,that teaches pece and charety, i might ad)



Looking strictla by fackt the teachings of jezus alone are perfectly fine (jezus ofcourse beind a erly communist) but the religion of cristeanety and how it makes itself how it makes its own rules and edits beliefs those things are the religious part that is wrong. I am sorry but you are either having a laugh or are just truley hypocritical when:what: you try to tell me that Islam has a much more positive impact on society than Christianity. If you think that the Bible is full of horrors then you have no idea until you read the Quran. You are a typical Atheist who feels its ok to attack Christianity but wont touch off Islam. I dobt mean to offend Muslims but let me just say that Mohammad raides an army to attack the city and then turned Mecca into a profitable "place of pilgrimage". Peace?....And as for Charity? Christians donate to the collection baskets or to other charities very regularly. Jesus was an early Communist.....okay, whatever. Apart from the fact that he is a Messiah and preached the religion and religion is banned in most communist places. He would have been killed by Soviets.
I have made an argument to Harry Smith which no one has tackled and no its not about how agressive Christians are. You are fairly hypocritical to talk so badly about the Christians and then turn right around and praise the Muslims for their peace.
This entire thread seems to just be people bickering over the following generalized points:
1. "The Bible is fake there is no god/God it's all just a book written by man Jesus wasn't special
2. If you don't follow the Bible to the letter you're not really religious. OH! But, the Bible is cool about slavery and treating women terribly, so you're either a misogynist who loves slavery at you're core, or you aren't really Christian.
3. Christianity isn't important, look at all the other organizations doing so much in this world. All Christianity is is a religion filled with perverted priests and people who hate homosexuality, because remember, the Bible says you can't be gay, and you have to follow the Bible to the letter, otherwise, as mentioned, you're not really Christian.
_______

And amidst all that bickering where have you gotten in this debate? Have you disproved God? Have you proven religion exists? No, and guess what, you probably never will. That's why for the most part, religious debates are boring and just turn into this.

Now the actual OP (which albeit is quiet subjective) was asking whether you believed that it has left a net positive or negative impact on society. It wasn't asking you to just disprove Christianity entirely by saying it's not real, it wasn't asking you to just talk about how there have been priests who are child molesters, yet these last few pages seem to have forgotten that. So please get back on topic and stop arguing over who's better than who, why Christianity is flawed, etc. You're on the internet: you can yell as loud as you like at your screen and all the other person has to do is type "no," and look, your message for/against Christianity's gone nowhere.Thank you, I think that you should also add to your list that one argument is based almost entirely on the past while the OP asked about the present.

[StoppingTime]

Tel me than dear all powerfull global mod, how is someone suposed to debate the negative/positive efect of something if one is cut of at the root of the debated subject? Whel you do to the root pull it out show it to the person who had cut it and when they have seen how it looks you show the AGAIN what efect the thing has had.

You don't need to pick apart details of christianity that makes no sense to you, and ones that have nothing to do with the question and therefore say, "Oh, well Christianity supports this, this, and this. Therefore it's a demonic cult." You just fall back onto the same three arguments and say them over and over, and you're not actually discussing the topic of the thread.

[ScarySouthernMan]

So poesans aen cristians? Or is it the other way around? And chatolics arent cristians?
So what you are saing to me that your religion is based on some stuf an old pedofile tels you is true?
So again i say you and your people quote the book and use it for... (i rather not say what) and stil have no idea what is writen in it! Interesting... i newer thaught of the religion i was forcefuly made a part of in this way.... you have opend my eies to new horizons of the pointlesnes and stupidety of sait mithologie.
What argimente have you made, that cristeanety os agresive? (Much more than islam,that teaches pece and charety, i might ad)



Looking strictla by fackt the teachings of jezus alone are perfectly fine (jezus ofcourse beind a erly communist) but the religion of cristeanety and how it makes itself how it makes its own rules and edits beliefs those things are the religious part that is wrong.

I must ask, is your grammar seriously that bad? I understand to a point, but I can barely even read your post!

[Stronk Serb]

On the United States genocide of the Native American tribes, their droppings of the atomic bombs, their pseudo-wars (most notably Vietnam and Iraq) in which hundreds of thousands of Americans lost their lives deployed overseas, and where millions of indigenous peoples were slaughtered in the wake of our terrible force;

Don't say that's not Freedom, they did it in the name Freedom, it happened because of Freedom. Obviously, the solution to end this cycle of massacre is to get rid of Freedom, according to your logic concerning Christianity.

They did it in the name of freedom, yes. But did they have the support of every democratic government? No, while the things I mentioned had full support of the Orthodox and Catholic leadership.

Really? The Catholic Church is not an enemy and I think a teen with little would be more than glad to have help be it from a Catholic or Muslim.
Islamists nearly outnumber Christians in mnay parts of the world. I am not surprised by the idea or fact of Islamists doing just as much i not more charity than Christian churches.

Yes, I have friends who are Christian who helped me. But for a pagan like me to ask for spiritual help from Christian or Islamic clergy wouldn't work. It would turn into a pointless debate just like this one.

You do realize that all people and groups hav dealt with violence or dealt out violence of some sort right? Whether it is strict Orthodox Christians, Radical False Muslims, Atheistic Communist Governments, Political Parties, et cetera, all have their good and bad sides. Christianity has had its message distorted by many but it is not a scourge. Violence and hatred is a scourge.

The leadership of the Church said: go to the Crusades, claim the Holy Land for God! Go to the savages to the East/in the New World, purge them or convert them! Burn the heretics because they have different beliefs! Modern age prime examples are WWII and the Yugoslav Civil War.

[Lovelife090994]

They did it in the name of freedom, yes. But did they have the support of every democratic government? No, while the things I mentioned had full support of the Orthodox and Catholic leadership.



Yes, I have friends who are Christian who helped me. But for a pagan like me to ask for spiritual help from Christian or Islamic clergy wouldn't work. It would turn into a pointless debate just like this one.



The leadership of the Church said: go to the Crusades, claim the Holy Land for God! Go to the savages to the East/in the New World, purge them or convert them! Burn the heretics because they have different beliefs! Modern age prime examples are WWII and the Yugoslav Civil War.

Spiritual help is normally found within your own religion. A Christian is not going to know of the Pagan belief system, we are different. If you needed help or had questions then ask me. Now, I hope you know what WWII involved, I see you sport a Soviet insignia.

[Harry Smith]

I cannot speak for the Catholic Church and I am not Catholic but I look at the good they do. Do you honestly think they condone the bad? No, they don't. So far all the atheists I have met are either rude to the religious or against those atheists who are against the religious. Why do you feel so combative to religion? We've gone off topic, so why the rage? And why is it that now you've put yourself in the stereotypical bubble?

The church in Britain have actively campaigned against my very rights such as the right to marry, adopt or even talk my sexuality, they've got a terrible record on lgbt rights

[Stronk Serb]

Spiritual help is normally found within your own religion. A Christian is not going to know of the Pagan belief system, we are different. If you needed help or had questions then ask me. Now, I hope you know what WWII involved, I see you sport a Soviet insignia.

I know what the Soviets did, they did good things, and bad things. The Ustasha, Chetnik, Domobran movements used religion as a reason for massacres and genocides. The Pope helped the Croatian dictator Ante Pavelić evade justice and go to South America. The Orthodox Church is anti-gay, and nationalist. Not to mention growing child molestation scandals. It sickens me what Christianity has become a few centuries after Jesus.

[Kahn]

I know what the Soviets did, they did good things, and bad things. The Ustasha, Chetnik, Domobran movements used religion as a reason for massacres and genocides. The Pope helped the Croatian dictator Ante Pavelić evade justice and go to South America. The Orthodox Church is anti-gay, and nationalist. Not to mention growing child molestation scandals. It sickens me what Christianity has become a few centuries after Jesus.

The Church, like any human institution, is liable to corruption. What the Church has become is a reflection of the nature of Man, not a reflection of the value of spiritual teachings. Some men are more gluttenous and terrible than others. These things that happened; there were other motives behind them besides "muh God." Believe it or not, the world was not as clear cut as history likes to make it seem.

Human character is tangible and corruptable. Horrible, unimaginable things have been done in the name of Gods and Men alike. We need to get past this.

[Harry Smith]

The Church, like any human institution, is liable to corruption. What the Church has become is a reflection of the nature of Man, not a reflection of the value of spiritual teachings. Some men are more gluttenous and terrible than others. These things that happened; there were other motives behind them besides "muh God." Believe it or not, the world was not as clear cut as history likes to make it seem.

Human character is tangible and corruptable. Horrible, unimaginable things have been done in the name of Gods and Men alike. We need to get past this.

I understand that all humanity is at risk from corruption, just like how political parties experience corruption and that doesn't make their cause any less noble.

My issue is that the Church in the UK is trying to influence government affairs such as gay adoption and equality in the workplace when really the church should have no control over the laws passed

[Dark Hatred]

I am a Christian but I think that all these religions are starting to get angry and it is causing wars and making unrest especially in the Middle East...I believe in Christianity but I think if someone wants to be Muslim, then let them and dont start a war...I agree with spreading your religion but if people say NO, we are Muslim then don't force it on them and start wars, they have a choice.

[Sugaree]

I understand that all humanity is at risk from corruption, just like how political parties experience corruption and that doesn't make their cause any less noble.

My issue is that the Church in the UK is trying to influence government affairs such as gay adoption and equality in the workplace when really the church should have no control over the laws passed

Your own narrowmindedness will be your downfall Harry. When will you learn that it's not all about you? Multiple times in this thread you have failed to recognize that the Church, be it in the UK or elsewhere, is just like any organization. It WILL try to use its influence to get what it wants. This is an almost universal law by now, and to ignore it is to be ignorant. You, of all people, should know that.

[Harry Smith]

Your own narrowmindedness will be your downfall Harry. When will you learn that it's not all about you? Multiple times in this thread you have failed to recognize that the Church, be it in the UK or elsewhere, is just like any organization. It WILL try to use its influence to get what it wants. This is an almost universal law by now, and to ignore it is to be ignorant. You, of all people, should know that.

And that's not acceptable, whether that's in regards to my rights, or the right's of women. In the UK the 26 bishops in the church are able to vote on the laws which are passed and I don't think that's acceptable. I'm not ignoring the issue, I'm confronting it head by saying that religion shouldn't play a part in the laws that govern me.

[tovaris]

You don't need to pick apart details of christianity that makes no sense to you, and ones that have nothing to do with the question and therefore say, "Oh, well Christianity supports this, this, and this. Therefore it's a demonic cult." You just fall back onto the same three arguments and say them over and over, and you're not actually discussing the topic of the thread.

How does one understand the workings of a radio? You take it apart, you reserche it scientificly! And using this gathered knowlage one explanes the curent efect and situation!
And actuly i newer it was a demonic cult i merly stated that a demonic cult is a religion as is cristeanety and as is wudu.
The topic at hand is if IT has a positive efect. That question has been answerd frew historical and present day fackt.

I am sorry but you are either having a laugh or are just truley hypocritical when:what: you try to tell me that Islam has a much more positive impact on society than Christianity. If you think that the Bible is full of horrors then you have no idea until you read the Quran. You are a typical Atheist who feels its ok to attack Christianity but wont touch off Islam. I dobt mean to offend Muslims but let me just say that Mohammad raides an army to attack the city and then turned Mecca into a profitable "place of pilgrimage". Peace?....And as for Charity? Christians donate to the collection baskets or to other charities very regularly. Jesus was an early Communist.....okay, whatever. Apart from the fact that he is a Messiah and preached the religion and religion is banned in most communist places. He would have been killed by Soviets.
I have made an argument to Harry Smith which no one has tackled and no its not about how agressive Christians are. You are fairly hypocritical to talk so badly about the Christians and then turn right around and praise the Muslims for their peace.
Thank you, I think that you should also add to your list that one argument is based almost entirely on the past while the OP asked about the present.

Hawe you read the Quran? No! I have, and unlike you i have also read the bible (havent read the tore thow). And now you wo hasent read one single one of thees books tells me what they say... i dont think so!
And is you were a true believer in yezus you would know that his teachings propagate most other things (like sharing etc...) and not so much good, of course there was the religious elemant ades since back than you had to thretten people with some sort of life after death, nowerdays we no longer require that threat since our society has evolved. And let me jist state atat jezus was propegating jideism not 'risteanety.

I must ask, is your grammar seriously that bad? I understand to a point, but I can barely even read your post!

Actuly my gramer isnt that bad the thing here is that the spelling is awfull.

Can ypur read this: If you find any spelling mistakes or typographical errors in my posts please report them to me immediately so that I can correct them.
Its in my sognature all the time seen on every post!


Now, I hope you know what WWII involved, I see you sport a Soviet insignia.


We KNOW how history went down! Firstly read what my friend has writen than open a history book !

Th
And amidst all that bickering where have you gotten in this debate?

Stating hystorical fackt isnt bickering its telling the absolute truth humanly posble, one cannot change history.


The leadership of the Church said: go to the Crusades, claim the Holy Land for God! Go to the savages to the East/in the New World, purge them or convert them! Burn the heretics because they have different beliefs! Modern age prime examples are WWII and the Yugoslav Civil War.
An exellant example of ITS negative efact on humanety.

[Lovelife090994]

And that's not acceptable, whether that's in regards to my rights, or the right's of women. In the UK the 26 bishops in the church are able to vote on the laws which are passed and I don't think that's acceptable. I'm not ignoring the issue, I'm confronting it head by saying that religion shouldn't play a part in the laws that govern me.

Oh, so basically in your world bishops have no vote? They are UK citizens too and act as religious representatives. You seem to have a problem with all things religion. Not everyone is atheistic or agnostic.

[tovaris]

The church in Britain have actively campaigned against my very rights such as the right to marry, adopt or even talk my sexuality, they've got a terrible record on lgbt rights

Not just britan, everywhere!

[Vlerchan]

Oh, so basically in your world bishops have no vote? They are UK citizens too and act as religious representatives. You seem to have a problem with all things religion. Not everyone is atheistic or agnostic.
He means the twenty-six Lord Spirituals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_Spiritual) who take their seats in the House of Lords. He's not actually against the retraction of a persons democratic right to vote based merely on their advanced position inside a religious order.

[Harry Smith]

Oh, so basically in your world bishops have no vote? They are UK citizens too and act as religious representatives. You seem to have a problem with all things religion. Not everyone is atheistic or agnostic.

No- as mentioned below I was talking about the 26 unelected bishops who can vote to on bills passed through our parliament because they believe in a certain type of God- the jews, or the muslims, or the hindu's don't have a sear only the church of England

He means the twenty-six Lord Spirituals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_Spiritual) who take their seats in the House of Lords. He's not actually against the retraction of a persons democratic right to vote based merely on their advanced position inside a religious order.

Thanks, their actually name escaped me,

[Zenos]

Oh wow- your kidding right?

How the fuck is English and French soldiers travelling over 10,000 miles to Syria and Iraq defensive in any way?



We were the invaders- we had no right to go over their and slaughter their children.

By your theory then Mexico has every right to invade Texas and California

Historical facts say that Islam has been imperialistic—and would still like to be, if only for religious reasons. Muslim propagandists, for example, would like to impose Islamic law around the world.

Historical facts say that Islam, including Muhammad, launched their own Crusades against Christianity long before the European Crusades.



http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades_timeline.htm

[Lovelife090994]

Historical facts say that Islam has been imperialistic—and would still like to be, if only for religious reasons. Muslim propagandists, for example, would like to impose Islamic law around the world.

Historical facts say that Islam, including Muhammad, launched their own Crusades against Christianity long before the European Crusades.



http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/crusades_timeline.htm

Sadly you are right. Though many Muslims are of peace the past and present show many negative things tied to Islam whether the people wanted or not. South Spain I know was invaded to be Muslim but of course after all the attacks Christians fought back.

[Zenos]

Sadly you are right. Though many Muslims are of peace the past and present show many negative things tied to Islam whether the people wanted or not. South Spain I know was invaded to be Muslim but of course after all the attacks Christians fought back.

True and the sad fact in our white washed PC western Culture if you point these fact out people will say you are wrong instead of looking at the historical facts.

In my dad's day the 1980's people from Europe used to claim we Americans have no since of history and now they are guilty of it as well.

[Lovelife090994]

True and the sad fact in our white washed PC western Culture if you point these fact out people will say you are wrong instead of looking at the historical facts.

In my dad's day the 1980's people from Europe used to claim we Americans have no since of history and now they are guilty of it as well.

So many are ignorant to history which is why this thread is up. Christianity is not perfect but it has an overall positive message. It's a religion's followers that can make it out to look bad not the religion itself.

[Zenos]

So many are ignorant to history which is why this thread is up. Christianity is not perfect but it has an overall positive message. It's a religion's followers that can make it out to look bad not the religion itself.

True and I find so many of my fellow teens and 20 something put of this air of pseudo-cynicism claiming religion is for idiots or such and such a religion is bad or did bad things in the past when it was the followers not the religion itself.

Come on teens and 20 somethings you have not lived long enough or seen enough in live to be cynical so cut the horse crap with the pseudo-cynicism your being as honest as most teens and their pusedo-philosopicalism intellectualism!

[Lovelife090994]

True and I find so many of my fellow teens and 20 something put of this air of pseudo-cynicism claiming religion is for idiots or such and such a religion is bad or did bad things in the past when it was the followers not the religion itself.

Come on teens and 20 somethings you have not lived long enough or seen enough in live to be cynical so cut the horse crap with the pseudo-cynicism your being as honest as most teens and their pusedo-philosopicalism intellectualism!

Wow, I could not have said it any better! I concur!

[Zenos]

Wow, I could not have said it any better! I concur!

Thanks it's just they erk me

[Harry Smith]

Nice to see this thread has pretty much turned into some right wing wank attacking Muslims, this is about Christianity and as per usual the only way you seem to defend yourself is by blaming another religion for it in the first place

[AlexOnToast]

Religion in general has caused far more problems then it has fixed.

My thoughts simplified :)

[Seth Green]

I'm sorry but I would say the negative is far greater than the good when it comes to Christianity. It is the fuel in the fire of Ignorance. It enables so many Idiots. The bible says so many Horrible things. About Homosexuality being wrong, and how it's ok to Rape a woman as long as you marry her and pay back her father, about how slavery is ok. It's Sexist, Racist, and Homophobic. And way to many ignorant people take it literally and use it as an excuse to be a horrible and idiotic excuse for a human.

[Lovelife090994]

I'm sorry but I would say the negative is far greater than the good when it comes to Christianity. It is the fuel in the fire of Ignorance. It enables so many Idiots. The bible says so many Horrible things. About Homosexuality being wrong, and how it's ok to Rape a woman as long as you marry her and pay back her father, about how slavery is ok. It's Sexist, Racist, and Homophobic. And way to many ignorant people take it literally and use it as an excuse to be a horrible and idiotic excuse for a human.

You do realize that you just ignored the good and looked to the bad which many Christians themselves frown upon right? Alas, religion is often a scapegoat. Blame the wrong doings on the people comitting them but not the belief system as a whole. I can say many negative things on any group but that would only be focusing on the bad. Nothing is perfect, but Christianity at least isn't the demon many make it out to be. In fact many Christians over the years have been killed for having the belief to believe in one god versus many, and also as to modern times many have been killed out of the name of radical ideas which I will not name or judge as a whole.

[CharlieHorse]

A world without any religion would be a good one.

[Seth Green]

You do realize that you just ignored the good and looked to the bad which many Christians themselves frown upon right? Alas, religion is often a scapegoat. Blame the wrong doings on the people comitting them but not the belief system as a whole. I can say many negative things on any group but that would only be focusing on the bad. Nothing is perfect, but Christianity at least isn't the demon many make it out to be.

...Right...But the topic says OVERALL I am not denying that there are MANY MANY good, Christians who do good things, but in my experience there are more negative effects then good, and the thing is like I said, the Old Testament says some pretty horrible stuff and it IS apart of the belief system.

In fact many Christians over the years have been killed for having the belief to believe in one god versus many

Uh...yeah but that's ANCIENT history. And If we're looking at that kind of stuff, Christians are have no room to talk, because in history they have done plenty of killing based on beliefs...

[Lovelife090994]

...Right...But the topic says OVERALL I am not denying that there are MANY MANY good, Christians who do good things, but in my experience there are more negative effects then good, and the thing is like I said, the Old Testament says some pretty horrible stuff and it IS apart of the belief system.



Uh...yeah but that's ANCIENT history. And If we're looking at that kind of stuff, Christians are have no room to talk, because in history they have done plenty of killing based on beliefs...


True, the Old Testament is apart of the Bible, no denying that. But does that mean Christianity itself is bad?
Yes many Christians have done rong doings. Does this okay Christians being killed even today?

[Tayoh]

To answer the OP; No.
It preaches an old set of morals, many of which have grown outdated awhile ago.
Morals don't exist because of religion. It certainly has influenced them, but it isn't what created them.

[rogoshtalmour]

Not at all. I believe it actually has harmed society. In fact, religion as a whole has. For one precise reason.
It causes unnecessary war. It really is, that simple.

I suppose I can forgive your ignorance this once. Did you know that the atheistic societies of China and Russia have killed more people in 50 years than religions have in all religious wars since at least 0 AD. 23,750,000 people is the highest estimate for the people that have died in religious conflicts. These figures include the deaths of civilians from diseases, famine, etc., as well as deaths of soldiers in battle and possible massacres and genocide.

Now for the communist regimes. Mass killings occurred under some Communist regimes during the twentieth century with an estimated death toll numbering between 85 and 100 million. Nearly 4 times as many in just what 100 years. Perhaps you will choose to make the argument that these deaths were necessary whereas religious wars were unnecessary. Or perhaps you want to blame the religions again because a lot of the people killed were religious. You can still be killed in China today for practicing Christianity that they don't approve of. They approve a certain kind of watered down Christianity but not the real deal. North Korea too is not a fan of religion. Do you feel more or less positive about yourself now that you know that you are coming down on the side of the greatest human rights abusers in all of human history?

To answer the OP; No.
It preaches an old set of morals, many of which have grown outdated awhile ago.
Morals don't exist because of religion. It certainly has influenced them, but it isn't what created them.

Without a higher moral authority than morals overall don't matter. Allow me to explain. If we as humans are all equal then we can legitimately decide our own morals. If I decide it is ok to murder then who are YOU to tell me I can't? You are a human just like me your opinion does not carry more weight than my own. Now you might say well yes but society has decided its wrong. So does this mean majority rules? Because there are of course societies where certain kinds of murder are permitted. For example in the Islamic countries they murder homosexuals or promiscuous women or Christians for that matter. There have been several beheadings of Christians in Syria lately. Now America and the rest of the world really has no authority to tell Syria they are wrong to do these things because well thats just our opinion and their opinions matter just as much as ours. The point I am trying to make is the world needs a higher moral authority to appeal to.

My thoughts simplified :)

Religion brought Europe out of the dark ages. The renaissance was started and carried on mainly by Christians. The Printing press was invented by a Christian. This allowed more books and the overall increase of knowledge in the world. It was in its time the same sort of advancement that the personal computer and internet have been today. World knowledge is increasing faster than ever before due to that advancement. Religions consistently give housing to the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give medicine to the sick. Let me ask all of you who are constantly criticizing the religious when is the last time you got off the computer out of your house and did something nice for your community? When did you last travel to Africa and just love on kids who need love and friendship. When did you last read to a kid who lost their parents? You guys wanna sit on your pedestals and look down upon Christians BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BENEFIT YOUR WORLD???????????? No you would rather sit back and say yeah Christians do some nice things but they WILL NEVER DO ENOUGH to make up for the horrible things that SOME Christians have done in the past. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Christians your own life would be a lot different than it is now. You should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America????

All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for looking down on people who have likely done more to help the world than you personally have. Take a look at yourselves and correct your own behavior. If you really think Christians are so bad then show a BETTER EXAMPLE. Be better and go and do all the hard work they do to help people and do it better than they do it.

[AlexOnToast]

Religion brought Europe out of the dark ages. The renaissance was started and carried on mainly by Christians. The Printing press was invented by a Christian. This allowed more books and the overall increase of knowledge in the world. It was in its time the same sort of advancement that the personal computer and internet have been today. World knowledge is increasing faster than ever before due to that advancement. Religions consistently give housing to the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give medicine to the sick. Let me ask all of you who are constantly criticizing the religious when is the last time you got off the computer out of your house and did something nice for your community? When did you last travel to Africa and just love on kids who need love and friendship. When did you last read to a kid who lost their parents? You guys wanna sit on your pedestals and look down upon Christians BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BENEFIT YOUR WORLD???????????? No you would rather sit back and say yeah Christians do some nice things but they WILL NEVER DO ENOUGH to make up for the horrible things that SOME Christians have done in the past. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Christians your own life would be a lot different than it is now. You should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America????

All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for looking down on people who have likely done more to help the world than you personally have. Take a look at yourselves and correct your own behavior. If you really think Christians are so bad then show a BETTER EXAMPLE. Be better and go and do all the hard work they do to help people and do it better than they do it.

This is one of the most arrogant things I have ever read. The argument you made about the Dark Ages is ridiculous. Who do you thing was mostly responsible for the Dark Ages?
So a christian invented the printing press? Explain to me how the fact that he invented it in any way reflects on upon his religeon. The fact that he invented the press is to do with his intelligence and ingenuity, not any personal belief in a god. You literally made no sense in that point.

The last time I "got off the computer out of my house and did something nice for your community" Could have one of the recent times I did fundraising the Chernobyl Children's Trust, Went busking for Focus Ireland, spent a weekend cleaning up the streets in my town for TidyTowns etc.
So what you are testifying is that only Christians can do god for the world. You are incredibly wrong there my friend. And don't try preach to me about kid's who have lost parents. I'm IN that situation and you have no idea what you are talking about.


"You should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America"
If you are suggesting that the prime reason that social and political turmoil exists in these counties is because they are not Christian nations, then I can't underestimate the arrogance and foolishness of that statement.

You seem to have this weird thing where you think I personally dislike Christians. What I dislike is religion in general. In saying that, it's not my place to enforce my views upon others, and I would never judge a person solely based on their religious beliefs. Many of my very best friends are of a religion, and many are very good people. gain, many are the opposite.
What you are doing here, however, is exactly the opposite. You are making assumptions that just because I'm not of a religion, I have no morals, no wish to help my fellow humans and no sense of what's right and what's wrong. You are hugely mistaken.

Just being Christian does not make you a good person. Being a good person makes you a good person.

[Miserabilia]

Religion brought Europe out of the dark ages. The renaissance was started and carried on mainly by Christians. The Printing press was invented by a Christian. This allowed more books and the overall increase of knowledge in the world. It was in its time the same sort of advancement that the personal computer and internet have been today. World knowledge is increasing faster than ever before due to that advancement. Religions consistently give housing to the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give medicine to the sick. Let me ask all of you who are constantly criticizing the religious when is the last time you got off the computer out of your house and did something nice for your community? When did you last travel to Africa and just love on kids who need love and friendship. When did you last read to a kid who lost their parents? You guys wanna sit on your pedestals and look down upon Christians BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BENEFIT YOUR WORLD???????????? No you would rather sit back and say yeah Christians do some nice things but they WILL NEVER DO ENOUGH to make up for the horrible things that SOME Christians have done in the past. Nevermind the fact that if it wasn't for Christians your own life would be a lot different than it is now. You should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America????

All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for looking down on people who have likely done more to help the world than you personally have. Take a look at yourselves and correct your own behavior. If you really think Christians are so bad then show a BETTER EXAMPLE. Be better and go and do all the hard work they do to help people and do it better than they do it.

"Religion brought Europe out of the dark ages."



Honestly,
do you know what caused the dark ages in europe to end?
Do you know?
Obviously, it's not as simple as something suddenly ending,
and yes, there were multiple causes, and other religions such as islam were involved, as wel as the improvement of technology.
There is a dutch term "Beeldenstorm" which didn't just apply to the netherlands but to a huge part of west europe.
Do you know what it was?

It was huge amounts of pissed of people, destroying churces and anything "holy", because you can imagine they were quite agitated after 1000 years of oppression and poverty, with the christian church bathing in wealth and gold?

So you have huge amounts of people, who've finally had enough, and they go crazy and destroy churches, and boom; dark ages are almost completely over.

Even if this wasn't the case everywhere, the whole dark ages were caused by oppressing christians in the first place, how can you say we should thank them for releasing people from it?
That's like torturing someone than expect them to thank you because you stopped after 1000 years.

NEXT!:

"The Printing press was invented by a Christian. This allowed more books and the overall increase of knowledge in the world."

It was already invented in different parts of the world, and also, what does this do to defend christianity? Not much.

next!

"Religions consistently give housing to the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give medicine to the sick. Let me ask all of you who are constantly criticizing the religious when is the last time you got off the computer out of your house and did something nice for your community? When did you last travel to Africa and just love on kids who need love and friendship. When did you last read to a kid who lost their parents? You guys wanna sit on your pedestals and look down upon Christians BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BENEFIT YOUR WORLD????????????"

Ah, a classic;
has it occured to you that this has nothing to do with religion?
I appreciate that people do this, we cannot thank people that help the community, and the poor, enough, but does it defend your religion?
No.
I'm not benefitting starving children by writing this, I'm using simple logic.

Next...

"No you would rather sit back and say yeah Christians do some nice things but they WILL NEVER DO ENOUGH to make up for the horrible things that SOME Christians have done in the past."

Some christians?
Please, why are you so personaly offended? This is about all religions.
Christianity, like almost all other religions and beleifs, causes more deaths than good.
Religious wars, religious torture, a 1000 years of religious oppression,
would you call that "Some"?
Seems more like "alot" to me.

Next:

"ou should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America????"

So.... You are just assuming those countries are completely terrible and poor, and assuming that is because they aren't christians?
How cruel.


https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash1/c81.25.311.311/s160x160/482490_308580992578051_670057321_n.jpg
Not to mention, china was (long before the west) a completely flourishing society, for more advanced than the rest of the world.

Next!;

"All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for looking down on people who have likely done more to help the world than you personally have. Take a look at yourselves and correct your own behavior. If you really think Christians are so bad then show a BETTER EXAMPLE. Be better and go and do all the hard work they do to help people and do it better than they do it."

So every religious person has done more to help the world than I have?
I don't think so.
You keep saying like that is a fact, but it is not. Religion has good sides, but that is because there are also good people.

Good people go to africa and feed the starving. This is not because they are normal people that beleive in a god and "jesus".

GG.

[Lovelife090994]

"Religion brought Europe out of the dark ages."

image (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg)

image (http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg)

Honestly,
do you know what caused the dark ages in europe to end?
Do you know?
Obviously, it's not as simple as something suddenly ending,
and yes, there were multiple causes, and other religions such as islam were involved, as wel as the improvement of technology.
There is a dutch term "Beeldenstorm" which didn't just apply to the netherlands but to a huge part of west europe.
Do you know what it was?

It was huge amounts of pissed of people, destroying churces and anything "holy", because you can imagine they were quite agitated after 1000 years of oppression and poverty, with the christian church bathing in wealth and gold?

So you have huge amounts of people, who've finally had enough, and they go crazy and destroy churches, and boom; dark ages are almost completely over.

Even if this wasn't the case everywhere, the whole dark ages were caused by oppressing christians in the first place, how can you say we should thank them for releasing people from it?
That's like torturing someone than expect them to thank you because you stopped after 1000 years.

NEXT!:

"The Printing press was invented by a Christian. This allowed more books and the overall increase of knowledge in the world."

It was already invented in different parts of the world, and also, what does this do to defend christianity? Not much.

next!

"Religions consistently give housing to the homeless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give medicine to the sick. Let me ask all of you who are constantly criticizing the religious when is the last time you got off the computer out of your house and did something nice for your community? When did you last travel to Africa and just love on kids who need love and friendship. When did you last read to a kid who lost their parents? You guys wanna sit on your pedestals and look down upon Christians BUT WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO BENEFIT YOUR WORLD????????????"

Ah, a classic;
has it occured to you that this has nothing to do with religion?
I appreciate that people do this, we cannot thank people that help the community, and the poor, enough, but does it defend your religion?
No.
I'm not benefitting starving children by writing this, I'm using simple logic.

Next...

"No you would rather sit back and say yeah Christians do some nice things but they WILL NEVER DO ENOUGH to make up for the horrible things that SOME Christians have done in the past."

Some christians?
Please, why are you so personaly offended? This is about all religions.
Christianity, like almost all other religions and beleifs, causes more deaths than good.
Religious wars, religious torture, a 1000 years of religious oppression,
would you call that "Some"?
Seems more like "alot" to me.

Next:

"ou should take a better look at countries that have never been so heavily influenced by Christianity. China, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Indonesia. Do you really think you would prefer living in one of those places than living in America????"

So.... You are just assuming those countries are completely terrible and poor, and assuming that is because they aren't christians?
How cruel.


image (https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash1/c81.25.311.311/s160x160/482490_308580992578051_670057321_n.jpg)
Not to mention, china was (long before the west) a completely flourishing society, for more advanced than the rest of the world.

Next!;

"All of you should be ashamed of yourselves for looking down on people who have likely done more to help the world than you personally have. Take a look at yourselves and correct your own behavior. If you really think Christians are so bad then show a BETTER EXAMPLE. Be better and go and do all the hard work they do to help people and do it better than they do it."

So every religious person has done more to help the world than I have?
I don't think so.
You keep saying like that is a fact, but it is not. Religion has good sides, but that is because there are also good people.

Good people go to africa and feed the starving. This is not because they are normal people that beleive in a god and "jesus".

GG.

Never have a read a post more seething of blindness. Christianity gave many of Europe hope in a Dark Age tha would have been nothing but darkness. Religious or not we are all people.

[Miserabilia]

Never have a read a post more seething of blindness. Christianity gave many of Europe hope in a Dark Age tha would have been nothing but darkness. Religious or not we are all people.

Seriously? You realy don't get it do you?

"Christianity gave many of Europe hope in a Dark Age tha would have been nothing but darkness"



The dark ages were caused by christianity, you do know that right?
The dark ages are by definition a 1000 years of christians oppressing people and science, and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor.
Christianity didn't give hope to 1000 years of darknes, christianity is the reason that those 1000 years were dark in the first place.

[Lovelife090994]

Seriously? You realy don't get it do you?

"Christianity gave many of Europe hope in a Dark Age tha would have been nothing but darkness"

image (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120922215054/creepypasta/images/a/ab/Jesus_facepalm.jpg)

The dark ages were caused by christianity, you do know that right?
The dark ages are by definition a 1000 years of christians oppressing people and science, and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor.
Christianity didn't give hope to 1000 years of darknes, christianity is the reason that those 1000 years were dark in the first place.

The Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. Many were not even Christian in Europe at the time! After the fall of Rome wealth an knowledge was ransacked and the people fell into despair. Even worse was the Plague after, the Dark Ages were a dark time. Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of hope and reason. You must know that.

[Harry Smith]

The Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. Many were not even Christian in Europe at the time! After the fall of Rome wealth an knowledge was ransacked and the people fell into despair. Even worse was the Plague after, the Dark Ages were a dark time. Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of hope and reason. You must know that.

Not really, I'd argue that people such as Luther showed that Europe needed to move away from Catholicism.

Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of reason

This is the same group who arrested Galileo? Believed the earth was flat? And pretty much blocked nearly every single scientific advance because it went against their godly belief.

You can also probably guess who the church blamed for the plague-the jews!

[Lovelife090994]

Not really, I'd argue that people such as Luther showed that Europe needed to move away from Catholicism.



This is the same group who arrested Galileo? Believed the earth was flat? And pretty much blocked nearly every single scientific advance because it went against their godly belief.

You can also probably guess who the church blamed for the plague-the jews!

That was the church, the Catholic Church, Then. Christianity itself is not the reason for the ills done in its namesake. Religious misconceptions and religiosity are the reasons for those bad issues. The church saw some science as a threat because it challenges an accepted way that was unquestioned for years, centuries really. But still, do you think Catholics and Protestants alike together stand for those bad things? No. There are more religions than just Christianity and even in Christianity you have your good and bad which is only human so to be expected as such. I have never heard of Catholics blaming the Jews for such a thing, and even if that "were" so, that was years back! You cannot blame all Christians today for the past sins. How are you any better by judging people before you get you know them? Most atheists could care less. But alas, it is always the worse who shout whilst the best be quietest.

[Vlerchan]

Christianity itself is not the reason for the ills done in its namesake[1]. [...] You cannot blame all Christians today for the past sins.[/2]
[1]: The suppression of science by the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages was done in the name of preserving Christianity. Whilst the dogma of Christianity doesn't - as far as I'm aware - promote the brutal suppression of new ideas that conflict with it's teaching it's still undeniable that such suppression occurred because of Christianity; ie., Christianities existence as a dominant religion at the time is directly responsible for suppression of dissenting ideas at the same time. Get me?

tl;dr: Actions done in the name of furthering and/or preserving Christian values or the Christian religion came as a result of the existence of the Christian religion. It doesn't matter if these actions didn't represent the Christian dogma because we are discussing the impact of the Christian religion and not the Christian dogma - two entirely different things.

[2]: I haven't seen anyone lay the blame of Christianities past-actions on any Christian posting here - or any Christians beside that for that matter.

Most atheists could care less.
Can you expand on this? Most Atheists could care less about what?

[Harry Smith]

That was the church, the Catholic Church, Then. Christianity itself is not the reason for the ills done in its namesake. Religious misconceptions and religiosity are the reasons for those bad issues. The church saw some science as a threat because it challenges an accepted way that was unquestioned for years, centuries really. But still, do you think Catholics and Protestants alike together stand for those bad things? No. There are more religions than just Christianity and even in Christianity you have your good and bad which is only human so to be expected as such. I have never heard of Catholics blaming the Jews for such a thing, and even if that "were" so, that was years back! You cannot blame all Christians today for the past sins. How are you any better by judging people before you get you know them? Most atheists could care less. But alas, it is always the worse who shout whilst the best be quietest.

This pretty much highlights where religion is complete and utter fantasy-your just attempting to do a very nice PR job by saying - oh no all that bad stuff wasn't real Christianity it was just bad people.

You want a modern up to date example of the wondrous Christianity- the former pope going to Africa and telling HIV victims not to wear a condom and to populate the earth

You cannot blame all Christians today for the past sins.

But it's okay when the Bible says that were all born with sin because some women ate a piece of fruit in a magic garden?

[Its Pretty]

Whether or not Christianity is truth or not goes beyond the answer to this question. False belief does a great deal of good for many people. Without religion, the world would be filled with miserable people. I think, if you have a choice between being a happy Christian and being a depressed atheist, you should choose to be a Christian.

I do think that the notion that Christianity gives people morals isn't true. People who are Christian routinely disobey their 'laws' (which are indeed unclear and muddled in the bible) While people who are atheist tend to create their own profile of morality (which is remarkably better and more complete then the shoddy Christian model).

Christianity doesn't cause anything, people cause Christianity. Remember people? Those retarded bipedal animals which take lust at murdering and making life hard for themselves and everyone else due to sheer lack of intelligence? A demented enough soul can hallucinate even the most curious vision to satisfy himself. If Christianity didn't exist, for sure there would be a completely different religion to fight wars over, like islam. atheist cultures tend to convert when contacted by a society with beliefs anyway (which I believe is evil and unfair)

[Miserabilia]

The Dark Ages were not caused by Christianity. Many were not even Christian in Europe at the time! After the fall of Rome wealth an knowledge was ransacked and the people fell into despair. Even worse was the Plague after, the Dark Ages were a dark time. Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of hope and reason. You must know that.

That is simply not true.
What you said was a cause for the dark ages, but the reason people took 1000 years to get up from this "dip" so to speak, is because christianity.
" Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of hope and reason."
Is simply not true.

The church held the most valueble items, gold, and catholoc priests etc., were rich and profited of the poor
(Poor people payed the church, so the church said they'd assure them to go to heaven).
With this kind of thing happening, poor people stayed poor and christianity found a nice way to keep being the dominant religion.
Not to mention, anyone that said anything that did not aggree with the christian beleifs at the time (like saying the earth isn't flat) was plainly killed.

[StoppingTime]

That is simply not true.
What you said was a cause for the dark ages, but the reason people took 1000 years to get up from this "dip" so to speak, is because christianity.
" Christianity emerged stronger in Europe as a voice of hope and reason."
Is simply not true.


What you said here is actually incorrect. As you mentioned, however, most poor people were made even poorer because of the selling of Indulgences by the Church. However, that wasn't the sole (or even most important reason) as to why they were poor. They were poor because they were either working in some sort of feudal/manorial system in which they had few rights, little property, and even less money to spend on anything except staples of life, or poor artisans stuck with the same problem.
Now if you, say, a peasant in the 12th century, were living on barely any food or money, and you're introduced to this amazing belief of rewards in an afterlife, wouldn't you look forward to that? Wouldn't you do all you could in this life to prepare for the next? And the answer is, yes, you likely would.

Christianity didn't cause these people to remain forever poor and unable to "escape" the Middle Ages. They wouldn't have been able to regardless as they were already in a constricting life. The only people who weren't were the upper classes, and if you did know about Wester European history of the time, you'd know that the upper classes weren't sitting and doing nothing. They were improving in banking and trade (which was due to the ever-growing production of the feudal systems), and even developed early commercial alliances.

So no, Christianity, overall, was not a negative force during the Middle Ages to the common peasant. Yes, while some were paying for Indulgences, not all of Europe was involved in this trend, and regardless, the feudal peasants, small merchants, or artisans were not educated enough to, as you said, "dip out" of the Middle Ages. It did, however, provide hope (maybe not reason, but to the commoner this didn't matter) to everyday individuals, which I don't see how you could argue is a negative impact.

[Lovelife090994]

This pretty much highlights where religion is complete and utter fantasy-your just attempting to do a very nice PR job by saying - oh no all that bad stuff wasn't real Christianity it was just bad people.

You want a modern up to date example of the wondrous Christianity- the former pope going to Africa and telling HIV victims not to wear a condom and to populate the earth



But it's okay when the Bible says that were all born with sin because some women ate a piece of fruit in a magic garden?

How dare you say that! You are no better than I and no better than any Christian nor any Christian better than you. You missed the point. Christianity is a belief system! People caused the Dark Ages not the beliefs.

[1]: The suppression of science by the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages was done in the name of preserving Christianity. Whilst the dogma of Christianity doesn't - as far as I'm aware - promote the brutal suppression of new ideas that conflict with it's teaching it's still undeniable that such suppression occurred because of Christianity; ie., Christianities existence as a dominant religion at the time is directly responsible for suppression of dissenting ideas at the same time. Get me?

tl;dr: Actions done in the name of furthering and/or preserving Christian values or the Christian religion came as a result of the existence of the Christian religion. It doesn't matter if these actions didn't represent the Christian dogma because we are discussing the impact of the Christian religion and not the Christian dogma - two entirely different things.

[2]: I haven't seen anyone lay the blame of Christianities past-actions on any Christian posting here - or any Christians beside that for that matter.


Can you expand on this? Most Atheists could care less about what?

Oh but people have been blaming Christians themselves here. You can see it in the tone of the writing and its diction. Most Atheists could care less what one is when it comes to religion and while they may bring up a past sin they wouldn't hold the person unrealated to it accountable for that sin.


Double post merged. ~StoppingTime

[StoppingTime]

You can also probably guess who the church blamed for the plague-the jews!

Well this is partially correct. While I don't think it was exclusively Christians who did this, the Jews were certainly blamed for the onset of the Black Plague. This was because according to Jewish Law, one must wash their hands before eating (bread), and because of this, fewer Jews were infected with the disease compared to others who didn't wash. It's possible that they were also blamed for poisoning the water as well, but you get the idea.

[Hyper]

The dark ages were caused by christianity, you do know that right?
The dark ages are by definition a 1000 years of christians oppressing people and science, and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor.
Christianity didn't give hope to 1000 years of darknes, christianity is the reason that those 1000 years were dark in the first place.

That paragraph as well deserves a giant facepalm. If you knew anything about history you'd know the commonly accepted ''cause'' for the beginning of the dark ages is the decline of the roman empire. Though most sensible historians don't even talk about something called ''the dark ages''

Now personally I don't want to touch this thread any more not even with a 60 foot pole. But the damn bull headedness and tunnel vision from both prevailing camps is just awful.

[Miserabilia]

What you said here is actually incorrect. As you mentioned, however, most poor people were made even poorer because of the selling of Indulgences by the Church. However, that wasn't the sole (or even most important reason) as to why they were poor. They were poor because they were either working in some sort of feudal/manorial system in which they had few rights, little property, and even less money to spend on anything except staples of life, or poor artisans stuck with the same problem.
Now if you, say, a peasant in the 12th century, were living on barely any food or money, and you're introduced to this amazing belief of rewards in an afterlife, wouldn't you look forward to that? Wouldn't you do all you could in this life to prepare for the next? And the answer is, yes, you likely would.

Christianity didn't cause these people to remain forever poor and unable to "escape" the Middle Ages. They wouldn't have been able to regardless as they were already in a constricting life. The only people who weren't were the upper classes, and if you did know about Wester European history of the time, you'd know that the upper classes weren't sitting and doing nothing. They were improving in banking and trade (which was due to the ever-growing production of the feudal systems), and even developed early commercial alliances.

So no, Christianity, overall, was not a negative force during the Middle Ages to the common peasant. Yes, while some were paying for Indulgences, not all of Europe was involved in this trend, and regardless, the feudal peasants, small merchants, or artisans were not educated enough to, as you said, "dip out" of the Middle Ages. It did, however, provide hope (maybe not reason, but to the commoner this didn't matter) to everyday individuals, which I don't see how you could argue is a negative impact.

and you're introduced to this amazing belief of rewards in an afterlife, wouldn't you look forward to that? Wouldn't you do all you could in this life to prepare for the next? And the answer is, yes, you likely would.

Christianity didn't cause these people to remain forever poor and unable to "escape" the Middle Ages.

Don't you see the contradiction there? It did cause them to stay poor for two reasons;

1: They were convinced it didn't matter if they were poor because aslong as they payed the church and stayed faithful they would get a good afterlife
2: The church was very powerful and much richer than the people

and if you did know about Wester European history of the time, you'd know that the upper classes weren't sitting and doing nothing. They were improving in banking and trade (which was due to the ever-growing production of the feudal systems), and even developed early commercial alliances.

How is that relevant? Did I say they didn't?

provide hope (maybe not reason, but to the commoner this didn't matter) to everyday individuals, which I don't see how you could argue is a negative impact.

"provide hope"

-Kill people that are different/have different ideas
-Keep most of the riches for themselves
-People stayed poor because the church told them this was the system intended by god, and they would burn eternally if they thought otherwise.

I wouldn't call any of that "hope".
Rather, it's a fear of 'hell".


That paragraph as well deserves a giant facepalm. If you knew anything about history you'd know the commonly accepted ''cause'' for the beginning of the dark ages is the decline of the roman empire. Though most sensible historians don't even talk about something called ''the dark ages''

Now personally I don't want to touch this thread any more not even with a 60 foot pole. But the damn bull headedness and tunnel vision from both prevailing camps is just awful.

You don't seem to understand. I do know the cause of the start of the dark ages (which I know is an unofficial term), but the fact is that christianity is one of the main reasons it continues for 1000 years.
Christianity caused catholic people of the church to be much much richer than the poor, and the poor stayed poor because the church made them beleive that they would get a better afterlife than the dark poor live they were leading then.
The church caused most people to stay poor and people with different ideas than the system they were using then were killed.

[Hyper]

You don't seem to understand. I do know the cause of the start of the dark ages (which I know is an unofficial term), but the fact is that christianity is one of the main reasons it continues for 1000 years.
Christianity caused catholic people of the church to be much much richer than the poor, and the poor stayed poor because the church made them beleive that they would get a better afterlife than the dark poor live they were leading then.
The church caused most people to stay poor and people with different ideas than the system they were using then were killed.

Yet if you did actually know you would know that pretty much all serious historians say that the dark ages are in plain terms a myth. So that entire 1000 years of this or that story is a load of crap.

Did the catholic church do some bad things during the early to middle ages. Sure it did but please don't jump in any ROTW thread using some meme/demotivational pics to ''debate'' someone you disagree with (with reason or not is irrelevant) and state facts you later recant.

Drawing this parallel line with christianity as a religion and the catholic church as an organized religious group and everything bad it's done is childish beyond belief.

You could draw similar lines with nearly anything that has ever occured in history and society just to justify your own ideals. There are more reasons for the crusades than Christianty--►Catholic church--►the crusades--►slaughter of innocents and oppression of muslims.

Same with any major historical event. The world isn't black & white and you guys need to get used to it because when you view all events and ideals as right or wrong you end up being the same kind of assholes you despise wether their christians, muslims, atheists or friggin krishnas.

[Miserabilia]

Yet if you did actually know you would know that pretty much all serious historians say that the dark ages are in plain terms a myth. So that entire 1000 years of this or that story is a load of crap.

Did the catholic church do some bad things during the early to middle ages. Sure it did but please don't jump in any ROTW thread using some meme/demotivational pics to ''debate'' someone you disagree with (with reason or not is irrelevant) and state facts you later recant.

Drawing this parallel line with christianity as a religion and the catholic church as an organized religious group and everything bad it's done is childish beyond belief.

You could draw similar lines with nearly anything that has ever occured in history and society just to justify your own ideals. There are more reasons for the crusades than Christianty--►Catholic church--►the crusades--►slaughter of innocents and oppression of muslims.

Same with any major historical event. The world isn't black & white and you guys need to get used to it because when you view all events and ideals as right or wrong you end up being the same kind of assholes you despise wether their christians, muslims, atheists or friggin krishnas.

Okay I'm sorry about the facepalm thing, I was in a really bad/weird mood and it was kind of stupid. /:

you would know that pretty much all serious historians say that the dark ages are in plain terms a myth

Do you have a source/explanation for that? What do you even mean by a myth?

and state facts you later recant.

What did I recant exactly?

Drawing this parallel line with christianity as a religion and the catholic church as an organized religious group and everything bad it's done is childish beyond belief.

It's just that it's a great example of the terrible things religions like christianity can cause. Which is very relevant to the thread because it doesn't show an overal good impact on the world.

The world isn't black & white and you guys need to get used to it because when you view all events and ideals as right or wrong

I'm not saying it's my opinion that everything christianity does is wrong,
I'm simply talking about one particular example.

[Human]

I think that some Christian values are useful to have although I'm an atheist.

[darthearth]

Not really, I'd argue that people such as Luther showed that Europe needed to move away from Catholicism.



This is the same group who arrested Galileo? Believed the earth was flat? And pretty much blocked nearly every single scientific advance because it went against their godly belief.

You can also probably guess who the church blamed for the plague-the jews!

Harry, please tell me why you continue to state Christians believed the Earth to be flat in the middle ages when this is absolutely not true. You repeat this over and over, and I have called you out on it before but you refuse to acknowledge when I point it out to you. From wikipedia:

"Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference"

Again I call you on this. Please stop repeating the incorrect assertion. Did not the heliocentric solar system cause a bigger problem? It was Galileo's heliocentric beliefs that was suppressed by the inquisition.

......

I do think that the notion that Christianity gives people morals isn't true. People who are Christian routinely disobey their 'laws' (which are indeed unclear and muddled in the bible) While people who are atheist tend to create their own profile of morality (which is remarkably better and more complete then the shoddy Christian model).

.......

Interesting, it was the Moral Law that every human seemed to be adhering to that convinced C.S. Lewis of Christianity, whereas he used to be an atheist. The question is where did this moral law you suggest come from if not from God (the source of the atheist "profile on morality")? I would suggest his book Mere Christianity to anyone (I have just a few chapters left to go). And how is the Christian model shoddy? "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" seems pretty robust and reasonable, and as Christians we are free to create our own "profile" of morality, it's called Christian liberty and the fact we are not under law but under grace.

Again, as I stated in my previous comments the definition of Christianity here should be the essential teachings of Christianity, not how Christians have behaved. If this is the definition it is unquestionable that Christianity has had a positive impact, for as far as the teachings were followed (10 commandments and the golden rule), nothing but positive should result.

[Its Pretty]

Interesting, it was the Moral Law that every human seemed to be adhering to that convinced C.S. Lewis of Christianity, whereas he used to be an atheist. The question is where did this moral law you suggest come from if not from God (the source of the atheist "profile on morality")? I would suggest his book Mere Christianity to anyone (I have just a few chapters left to go). And how is the Christian model shoddy? "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" seems pretty robust and reasonable, and as Christians we are free to create our own "profile" of morality, it's called Christian liberty and the fact we are not under law but under grace.

Again, as I stated in my previous comments the definition of Christianity here should be the essential teachings of Christianity, not how Christians have behaved. If this is the definition it is unquestionable that Christianity has had a positive impact, for as far as the teachings were followed (10 commandments and the golden rule), nothing but positive should result.

The same place trees and apples and floods come from, the big bang. I guess I should correct myself as I really haven't read much of the bible, so criticizing the morality of Christians is silly. People who are immoral will be so under any religion. And moral people will bend their beliefs regardless.

Positive impact and negative impact are terms relative to the subject. What would be positive for one would be negative to another, and for everything else neutral. Stealing a chocolate bar from a convienience store has a positive impact on me, while having a negative impact on the store owner, the chocolate manufacturer and the cocoa planters in wherever. The impact on the chocolate bar is unclear because it does not have a consciousness. One could say that the chocolate bar is positively impacted because it will soon fill out it's purpose, one could say it is negatively impacted because it will soon be destroyed. So, if you are a Christian, you could say that Christianity has a positive impact, because without it, heaven would be quite empty (or am I misunderstanding the bible.)

[Gumleaf]

The problem with this debate is that we only hear a very one sided view of things from the media. Everyone then collectively makes judgements on things from the media. For example, there are always big stroies about pedophile priests in the catholic church. Should they be condemened and locked up for a long time? Absolutely!!! Has the actions of them harmed society? Indeed they have. But the problem with that is that nobody ever reports on the good. The church I go to serve meals to the local homeless people in a park every weekend. A group of girls go to some local brothels and take the women in there cup cakes and talk to them. We sponsor a town in Uganda that is well below the poverty line and fund the building of rain water tanks for other towns. We also sponsor people to go over to poor countries and offer physical help. And those are just the ministries I know of! No church is perfect, only God is perfect, and people will have bad experiences with christians and the church. But the good that nobody sees far outweights the negatives.

[Its Pretty]

The problem with this debate is that we only hear a very one sided view of things from the media. Everyone then collectively makes judgements on things from the media. For example, there are always big stroies about pedophile priests in the catholic church. Should they be condemened and locked up for a long time? Absolutely!!! Has the actions of them harmed society? Indeed they have. But the problem with that is that nobody ever reports on the good. The church I go to serve meals to the local homeless people in a park every weekend. A group of girls go to some local brothels and take the women in there cup cakes and talk to them. We sponsor a town in Uganda that is well below the poverty line and fund the building of rain water tanks for other towns. We also sponsor people to go over to poor countries and offer physical help. And those are just the ministries I know of! No church is perfect, only God is perfect, and people will have bad experiences with christians and the church. But the good that nobody sees far outweights the negatives.

Those Christians who help others would do the same as atheists. It would be nice to see a study where they track the good and bad deeds of Christians and those of other religions, including atheists, to see if Christians really are more ethical.

[Seth Green]

Here's the thing, all the Christians are getting all offended, but honestly religion in general have had a great negative effect. Then seeing as Christianity is one of the most popular, there's a lot of negative effects.

Another thing is, a lot of the great things Christians have done, didn't really have much to do with there religion just with those people being good people...and almost ALL of the bad things have everything to do with the religion... Ignorant people read the bible and then believe a bunch of the weird fucked up stuff in there are completely literally true, then go around shoving it down peoples throats and teaching there children to do the same thing.

[Lovelife090994]

Here's the thing, all the Christians are getting all offended, but honestly religion in general have had a great negative effect. Then seeing as Christianity is one of the most popular, there's a lot of negative effects.

Another thing is, a lot of the great things Christians have done, didn't really have much to do with there religion just with those people being good people...and almost ALL of the bad things have everything to do with the religion... Ignorant people read the bible and then believe a bunch of the weird fucked up stuff in there are completely literally true, then go around shoving it down peoples throats and teaching there children to do the same thing.

But the Bible tells us to give unto others as we would have others give unto us. What people ignore from the Bible is its instruction to do good in the world. Teaching your children that God is a god of love and that we should all do like him and help others is no sin at all. True, many Christians are bad but they were probably bad before they supposedly gave their life to Christ. Even a bad person must be willing to change and God is not a god to force one to do so. Besides, many focus on the bad of Christianity enough as is. Why no talk on the charity and care done in the name of the Lord? No harm in that right? Yes for many charity is ou of the goodness of their hearts and for Christians usually it is both, goodness and because it is to be more like Christ as it is to put one before yourself. See where I'm getting at? The wrongs of Christianity were done blindly in the name of religion itself which can be bad when paired with any faith.

[Harry Smith]

But the Bible tells us to give unto others as we would have others give unto us. What people ignore from the Bible is its instruction to do good in the world. Teaching your children that God is a god of love and that we should all do like him and help others is no sin at all. True, many Christians are bad but they were probably bad before they supposedly gave their life to Christ. Even a bad person must be willing to change and God is not a god to force one to do so. Besides, many focus on the bad of Christianity enough as is. Why no talk on the charity and care done in the name of the Lord? No harm in that right? Yes for many charity is ou of the goodness of their hearts and for Christians usually it is both, goodness and because it is to be more like Christ as it is to put one before yourself. See where I'm getting at? The wrongs of Christianity were done blindly in the name of religion itself which can be bad when paired with any faith.

I'd argue that many people who don't believe in God also contribute to charity-you can't claim that's one good thing that religion does because it's easily cancelled out.

You really shouldn't follow any part of the Bible in your life because you'd end up contradicting yourself in the first minute. It's a book that advocates rape, genocide, murder and cruelty.

You shouldn't govern yourself with a 2000 year old book written by a dozen men

[Zenos]

Hmm.. do you remember the crusades? Maybe the domobranci and theyr good inpowed slaughter of their own nation, my nation. The chetniks, ustaši... they too killed in the name of religion.
Remember the kill the infidales between he lines and IN many lines...
Religion belonges to the pas the deep past of a tribal world.
Do not eat shelfish, do not kick a pig blather filled with ait... good morals, wisdom of somekind right...
People who cant find purpose in the real world and seek it in some imaginary being up in the sky that frows down lightning must be some sad people.
And just as with opiom there are concequances.
When we die our body decaies and is recicled back into the natural world.



Please stop rewriting history,the Forces of Islam had already been invading Europe through Spain and through eastern Europe, and had been conducting raids along the coast of Europe for slaves and where sending people back from Europe as slaves form the lands the had taken and that was plain out Jihad and aggressive war and covered a larger area of land including Christian lands that had been apart of the Roman Empire in the middle east and northern Europe,while the Christian Crusades had been of a short time and was done over less of an area of lands and was the result of aggressive Islamic attacks on Christian held lands and where defensive in nature to defend Europe and retake chrisian held lands and where totally justified!


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9W1S89aDDc


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzXQ_U_0RcU

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GiQsx_r1kg

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQFFQgStYY

[JamesSC]

Please stop rewriting history,the Forces of Islam had already been invading Europe through Spain and through eastern Europe, and had been conducting raids along the coast of Europe for slaves and where sending people back from Europe as slaves form the lands the had taken and that was plain out Jihad and aggressive war and covered a larger area of land including Christian lands that had been apart of the Roman Empire in the middle east and northern Europe,while the Christian Crusades had been of a short time and was done over less of an area of lands and was the result of aggressive Islamic attacks on Christian held lands and where defensive in nature to defend Europe and retake chrisian held lands and where totally justified!
I agree with this guy

[Harry Smith]

Please stop rewriting history,the Forces of Islam had already been invading Europe through Spain and through eastern Europe, and had been conducting raids along the coast of Europe for slaves and where sending people back from Europe as slaves form the lands the had taken and that was plain out Jihad and aggressive war and covered a larger area of land including Christian lands that had been apart of the Roman Empire in the middle east and northern Europe,while the Christian Crusades had been of a short time and was done over less of an area of lands and was the result of aggressive Islamic attacks on Christian held lands and where defensive in nature to defend Europe and retake chrisian held lands and where totally justified!


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9W1S89aDDc


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzXQ_U_0RcU

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GiQsx_r1kg

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQFFQgStYY

And Iraq has nuclear weapons?

You raise an interesting idea about Slavery because I'm certain Christians never raided coastlines to bring slaves back to their countries did they?

[Zenos]

I agree with this guy

Thanks. i'm just tired of people rewrite our peoples history based on movies and people with an agenda and lack of historical knowledge.

Mt dad used to say Europeans would look on us Americans with scorn and claim we had no since of history and now it looks like the old saying don't make fun of others are you'll end up like them has proven true on the other of the pond to a degree now.

[JamesSC]

Thanks. i'm just tired of people rewrite our peoples history based on movies and people with an agenda and lack of historical knowledge.

Mt dad used to say Europeans would look on us Americans with scorn and claim we had no since of history and now it looks like the old saying don't make fun of others are you'll end up like them has proven true on the other of the pond to a degree now.
Well, their is no changing history. It's already happened...

[Zenos]

And Iraq has nuclear weapons?

You raise an interesting idea about Slavery because I'm certain Christians never raided coastlines to bring slaves back to their countries did they?


Never said they didn't because I realize that slavery was pretty much universal then,but that's not what I was talking about I was talking about why the crusades where fought!

and Iraqi and nukes have nothing to do with the crusades way back then so nice try to derail my correcting historical inaccuracy with a modern day heated topic but not gonna happen! :P

[Harry Smith]

Never said they didn't because I realize that slavery was pretty much universal then,but that's not what I was talking about I was talking about why the crusades where fought!

and Iraqi and nukes have nothing to do with the crusades way back then so nice try to derail my correcting historical inaccuracy with a modern day heated topic but not gonna happen! :P

Something I address below-it's good I managed to torpedo your point about slavery though.

You correcting historical inaccuracies-was that before or after you posted sources from a far right fascist group?

Thanks. i'm just tired of people rewrite our peoples history based on movies and people with an agenda and lack of historical knowledge.

Mt dad used to say Europeans would look on us Americans with scorn and claim we had no since of history and now it looks like the old saying don't make fun of others are you'll end up like them has proven true on the other of the pond to a degree now.

Says the person who posted a video from a far right fascist group based in Australia. I'd also happily argue that Europe has pubs that are older than the United States.

Your idea about the crusades is one that has been peddled around conservative forums to justify hatred against Islam. The crusaders were not defensive in any form-under modern legal terms they were a 'war of aggression'. As someone a lot more qualified than me or you said about it...

The crusaders had one goal in 1096: to capture the Holy Sepulcher, the tomb of Christ, in Jerusalem. Christianity at this time was less about ideas and more about things--places, objects and bones Jay Rubenstein associate professor of medieval history http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-rubenstein/myths-about-crusade-myths_b_1031722.html

[JamesSC]

Pretty sure they both had slaves...

[Zenos]

Something I address below-it's good I managed to torpedo your point about slavery though.

You correcting historical inaccuracies-was that before or after you posted sources from a far right fascist group?



Says the person who posted a video from a far right fascist group based in Australia. I'd also happily argue that Europe has pubs that are older than the United States.

Your idea about the crusades is one that has been peddled around conservative forums to justify hatred against Islam. The crusaders were not defensive in any form-under modern legal terms they were a 'war of aggression'. As someone a lot more qualified than me or you said about it...

Jay Rubenstein associate professor of medieval history http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-rubenstein/myths-about-crusade-myths_b_1031722.html


LOl..I did not know they where facist and I don't care what group they are the fact is that info is actually accurate,and if they believe in the Blue cheese God it does not change the facts that IF you do your research you'll find it accurate!

So by your standards even though they went to war to push an enemy out of Christian lands they where wrong? that's messed up that's like saying if my neighbor jumped on me for no reason and I defended myself from him I am wrong.

Plus todays modern legal terms are so messed up the perpetrator of a crime can get away with it while the victim can be penalized for defending themselves.last time I talked to anyone from England they said you guys don't have a law saying you have the right to defend yourseleves from an attacker back then it would have been seen as a natural right to defend against an attacker.

Plus a pub older then the usa means nothing!

[Harry Smith]

LOl..I did not know they where facist and I don't care what group they are the fact is that info is actually accurate,and if they believe in the Blue cheese God it does not change the facts that IF you do your research you'll find it accurate!

So by your standards even though they went to war to push an enemy out of Christian lands they where wrong? that's messed up that's like saying if my neighbor jumped on me for no reason and I defended myself from him I am wrong.

Plus today's modern legal terms are so messed up the perpetrator of a crime can get away with it while the victim can be penalized for defending themselves.last time I talked to anyone from England they said you guys don't have a law saying you have the right to defend yourseleves from an attacker back then it would have been seen as a natural right to defend against an attacker.

Plus a pub older then the usa means nothing!

I'm talking about international law-not civil law. There's a very big difference. The law you talk about above refers to a single country-the law I'm referring governs the entire world and has been set in context since 1948 so it's hardly modern.

The source (the video) comes from a very unreliable source-if you tried to write an academic paper on the crusades and you mentioned that you would get laughed at and then failed. It doesn't stand up to a single test (nature,origin or purpose). Just because some one mentions a fact in a video doesn't make it true. If you want to find the truth at least use a better source. I've provided one from a historian-you've got one from a far right group

The Muslims had held that land for 400 years-that's longer than the US has existed for, and hence by your logic Mexico would be able to declare war on the US over Texas and California since they're 'Mexican lands'. So the idea that crusades were trying to get back 'christian lands' is pretty much bullshit

[Zenos]

I'm talking about international law-not civil law. There's a very big difference. The law you talk about above refers to a single country-the law I'm referring governs the entire world and has been set in context since 1948 so it's hardly modern.

The source (the video) comes from a very unreliable source-if you tried to write an academic paper on the crusades and you mentioned that you would get laughed at and then failed. It doesn't stand up to a single test (nature,origin or purpose). Just because some one mentions a fact in a video doesn't make it true. If you want to find the truth at least use a better source. I've provided one from a historian-you've got one from a far right group

The Muslims had held that land for 400 years-that's longer than the US has existed for, and hence by your logic Mexico would be able to declare war on the US over Texas and California since they're 'Mexican lands'. So the idea that crusades were trying to get back 'christian lands' is pretty much bullshit

the laws you are referring to can not be applied back then as there was no international community so your harping the crusades where a war of aggression is right our fallacy,plus those lands where taken from Christians BY FORCE,they didn't break away from the rest of the Christians lands to form their on nations then later vote to join the Islamic empire where as Texas and California broke away from mexico formed their own nations,then later on voted to join the USA,hence they where no longer Mexican land sbut independent nations determining their own desitines,unlike the lands taken by force by an invading enemy!

that's two different situations! You politically correct socialist conditioning is not letting you realize that!

Also if some one from outside your invaded you nation and took a chink of land 400 years ago by force of arms wouldn't you want to fight to free the people and return that land to your nation where it belongs?

and what do you keep harping on the USA for ? If we had stayed out of the war you'd be speaking German now!

[Harry Smith]

the laws you are referring to can not be applied back then as there was no international community so your harping the crusades where a war of aggression is right our fallacy,plus those lands where taken from Christians BY FORCE,they didn't break away from the rest of the Christians lands to form their on nations then later vote to join the Islamic empire where as Texas and California broke away from mexico formed their own nations,then later on voted to join the USA,hence they where no longer Mexican land sbut independent nations determining their own desitines,unlike the lands taken by force by an invading enemy!

that's two different situations! You politically correct socialist conditioning is not letting you realize that!

Also if some one from outside your invaded you nation and took a chink of land 400 years ago by force of arms wouldn't you want to fight to free the people and return that land to your nation where it belongs?

Ah yes, the United States of America never steals land. Just ask the natives! I'd very much argue that the foundation of the US is based on stealing land from it's original owners- whether it's the natives, the Mexicans or the French.

Yep-it's damn socialism right there. Blame Obama.

Also if some one from outside your invaded you nation and took a chink of land 400 years ago by force of arms wouldn't you want to fight to free the people and return that land to your nation where it belongs?

Not really, considering that my country got it's wealth, army and royal famlily by invading other nations and stealing their land. Heck my ancestors came here as Romans to steal land from the native tribes. This whole stupid I had it first argument makes you sound like you have the intelligence of a 1 year old.

Don't try the 'free people' act, I know right wing nuts love pretending their liberating the world but raping, killing and torturing innocent civilians doesn't sound like freedom.

Please- don't even mention WW2. Just please don't. We fought for two years without the US, we protected our own lands,skies and seas. Our navy could of beaten your east coast fleet and then return in the same afternoon. The idea that the US saved us is complete and utter wank-the Germans were not going to invade in 1940 or 1941. This is something that has even been admitted by the ex-German generals such as Von Menstein-so please don't try it. I could quite easily write a essay on this topic so if you want to discuss it create another thread and I'll happily tell you just how badly informed your military history is.

[tovaris]

Please stop rewriting history,the Forces of Islam had already been invading Europe through Spain and through eastern Europe, and had been conducting raids along the coast of Europe for slaves and where sending people back from Europe as slaves form the lands the had taken and that was plain out Jihad and aggressive war and covered a larger area of land including Christian lands that had been apart of the Roman Empire in the middle east and northern Europe,while the Christian Crusades had been of a short time and was done over less of an area of lands and was the result of aggressive Islamic attacks on Christian held lands and where defensive in nature to defend Europe and retake chrisian held lands and where totally justified!


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9W1S89aDDc


Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzXQ_U_0RcU

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GiQsx_r1kg

Christian resistance against Jihad timeline - part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLQFFQgStYY


Umf you are realy some crist fanatic. Thebarabs were simply concering and expanding their empire, nothing to do with religion realy.
As did cristians expand an invade. Let me remind you that both sides have galons of blod on their hands!
Also pleas remember that cristians also kept slaves at the time! And that they took prisoers of war... (there was no geneva convention back than)

Actuly i shpuld be thanking you for you have yust proven that all religion is agresive and war wanting!
The muslims and cristians all pray to the same good so why see them as diferente? Their both usles and harmfull towards society!

And Iraq has nuclear weapons?

You raise an interesting idea about Slavery because I'm certain Christians never raided coastlines to bring slaves back to their countries did they?

Nor did the opose keeping them!!!

I agree with this guy

Are you aome sort of a sheep to blindly folow the lovdes of your grup?

Thanks. i'm just tired of people rewrite our peoples history based on movies and people with an agenda and lack of historical knowledge.

Mt dad used to say Europeans would look on us Americans with scorn and claim we had no since of history and now it looks like the old saying don't make fun of others are you'll end up like them has proven true on the other of the pond to a degree now.

There exists a great cure for your condition. Itsbcalled a HISTORY BOOK!!! Read one I guarantie you will get better.

Well, their is no changing history. It's already happened...

Exactly! So dont go around telling me that CRISTIAN fanatics didnt kill my greatgreatuncle!
Blod is thiker than water!
Never said they didn't because I realize that slavery was pretty much universal then,but that's not what I was talking about I was talking about why the crusades where fought!

and Iraqi and nukes have nothing to do with the crusades way back then so nice try to derail my correcting historical inaccuracy with a modern day heated topic but not gonna happen! :P

Crusades were thaught because of the blod thirst of the popes, and thier thirst for land and power!!!
No nobal cause there

[Lovelife090994]

I'd argue that many people who don't believe in God also contribute to charity-you can't claim that's one good thing that religion does because it's easily cancelled out.

You really shouldn't follow any part of the Bible in your life because you'd end up contradicting yourself in the first minute. It's a book that advocates rape, genocide, murder and cruelty.

You shouldn't govern yourself with a 2000 year old book written by a dozen men

One, I never said that only the religious are charitable. Two, anyone can follow the good of the Bible. Three, rape is not condoned, it is disgusting of an act. Why does it tie to the rapist marrying the victim? This ties to years ago where a woman is raped and then a child is born, someone must take responsibilty. In short, "you rape my daughter, I won't kill you if you take her as a bride rather than taking her for your lustful passions." That was the mindset then. The Bible is older than 2000 years. How one governs themslef is their business. A dozen? Dear lord have you gotten that wrong. The Bible was writen by many but by God and much of it stems from earlier books like the Torah and even the Quran. I'd love to talk theology but I doubt you'd want to talk on that.

[Harry Smith]

One, I never said that only the religious are charitable. Two, anyone can follow the good of the Bible. Three, rape is not condoned, it is disgusting of an act. Why does it tie to the rapist marrying the victim? This ties to years ago where a woman is raped and then a child is born, someone must take responsibilty. In short, "you rape my daughter, I won't kill you if you take her as a bride rather than taking her for your lustful passions." That was the mindset then. The Bible is older than 2000 years. How one governs themslef is their business. A dozen? Dear lord have you gotten that wrong. The Bible was writen by many but by God and much of it stems from earlier books like the Torah and even the Quran. I'd love to talk theology but I doubt you'd want to talk on that.

Oh so rape isn't condoned but murder, genocide and cruelty is? Also about rape...

{MATTHEW 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Jesus endorses the mass murder, rape, slavery, torture and incest written about in the Old Testament.}

The new testament is 2000 year old, that's the one I was referring to in my argument because I know that Christians are so quick to denounce the old testament because it looks bad for the public relations department

[Lovelife090994]

Oh so rape isn't condoned but murder, genocide and cruelty is? Also about rape...



The new testament is 2000 year old, that's the one I was referring to in my argument because I know that Christians are so quick to denounce the old testament because it looks bad for the public relations department

Denounce? You do realize that all of those break the commandments right? You do realize that no true Christian enorces killing? You do realize that your view of Christianity is misconceptual? Public relations? We are not asking the world to like or hate us. In fact not every one is going to love you. Honestly, it is not about publicity. Who told you this? You misinterpreted that scripture. Please quote the rest. In fact no. Let me read it myself since you see Christianity as some near death sentence which is near annoying but above all shocking! Oh God, have you misread! Jesus is speaking how he means not to change the ways of the land or prophets but to fulfil God's plan. That all who do not follow the commandments be called poor in Heaven. Don't you get it? No? I'll reexplain if you need it. Why 2000 years? The Bible has no exact dates.

[Seth Green]

In short, "you rape my daughter, I won't kill you if you take her as a bride rather than taking her for your lustful passions." That was the mindset then.

No, the mindset was "If you rape my Daughter you have to pay me back for my property." Because according to the bible the rapist would just have to repay the father, and the he would be able to marry her with out being prosecuted, because now that the woman who was raped no longer had her virginity she was worthless to the father.

So basically the bible is full of fucked up shit, stupid people read it, then use it to be assholes. But you can't claim that it has nothing to do with the religion because it's in you damn religious texts! So overall, Negative impact. Now I am not negating that Christians have done good things, but the good things they do don't have much to do with the bible, and the bad things ARE because of Christianity. Because the ones who are doing bad things are stupid people who need a book to tell them what to think, and the bible tells them to think horrible, mean things.

[Harry Smith]

Denounce? You do realize that all of those break the commandments right? You do realize that no true Christian enorces killing? You do realize that your view of Christianity is misconceptual? Public relations? We are not asking the world to like or hate us. In fact not every one is going to love you. Honestly, it is not about publicity. Who told you this? You misinterpreted that scripture. Please quote the rest. In fact no. Let me read it myself since you see Christianity as some near death sentence which is near annoying but above all shocking! Oh God, have you misread! Jesus is speaking how he means not to change the ways of the land or prophets but to fulfil God's plan. That all who do not follow the commandments be called poor in Heaven. Don't you get it? No? I'll reexplain if you need it. Why 2000 years? The Bible has no exact dates.

Religions anti-women, anti-gay hate kinda told me that they didn't want everyone to like them.

Widely acknowledged that we live in something called AD now-so I was off by about 100 years-I'm greatly sorry.

Ah so the quote doesn't suit you so it must be wrong then? It clearly outlines how Jesus wishes to uphold the old values outlined in the old testament e.g rape,murder, incest. I can quite happily give about 100 more examples of how both the old and new testament endorses mass murder but you don't want to hear that-it's easier to pretend that Christianity is fine

[Lovelife090994]

No, the mindset was "If you rape my Daughter you have to pay me back for my property." Because according to the bible the rapist would just have to repay the father, and the he would be able to marry her with out being prosecuted, because now that the woman who was raped no longer had her virginity she was worthless to the father.

So basically the bible is full of fucked up shit, stupid people read it, then use it to be assholes. But you can't claim that it has nothing to do with the religion because it's in you damn religious texts! So overall, Negative impact. Now I am not negating that Christians have done good things, but the good things they do don't have much to do with the bible, and the bad things ARE because of Christianity. Because the ones who are doing bad things are stupid people who need a book to tell them what to think, and the bible tells them to think horrible, mean things.

I will reply to this directly since it is very one-sided and abhorrently rude! The Bible does no such thing. Who gave you your view of Christianity? A heretic? Who are you to call those who read and study a book stupid? Last I checked we are all human. Now I cannot stand for the wrongs of the past but I cannot stand for the wrong stereotyping of the present either.

Religions anti-women, anti-gay hate kinda told me that they didn't want everyone to like them.

Widely acknowledged that we live in something called AD now-so I was off by about 100 years-I'm greatly sorry.

Ah so the quote doesn't suit you so it must be wrong then? It clearly outlines how Jesus wishes to uphold the old values outlined in the old testament e.g rape,murder, incest. I can quite happily give about 100 more examples of how both the old and new testament endorses mass murder but you don't want to hear that-it's easier to pretend that Christianity is fine

Christianity in itself is fine. It's those who were corrupt that courrupted what many think about it. No the quote was interpreted wrong. I have a Bible on hand. No that scripture says what Jesus is. He is not a man to challenge the world's laws. No. Jesus came to die for all of our sins for that we may seek God and have everlasting life. If giving hope and peace are evil then what reality are you in? The Bible does not endorse murder. Thou shalt not kill? Heard of it.

[Harry Smith]

I will reply to this directly since it is very one-sided and abhorrently rude! The Bible does no such thing. Who gave you your view of Christianity? A heretic? Who are you to call those who read and study a book stupid? Last I checked we are all human. Now I cannot stand for the wrongs of the past but I cannot stand for the wrong stereotyping of the present either.



Christianity in itself is fine. It's those who were corrupt that courrupted what many think about it. No the quote was interpreted wrong. I have a Bible on hand. No that scripture says what Jesus is. He is not a man to challenge the world's laws. No. Jesus came to die for all of our sins for that we may seek God and have everlasting life. If giving hope and peace are evil then what reality are you in? The Bible does not endorse murder. Thou shalt not kill? Heard of it.

Well that's the problem right there-your stating as a fact that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins to aid god-you don't have any evidence to prove that. Occam razor would suggest that his mother Mary simply lied about having an affair and blamed it on a deity. I mentioned before about being hypocritical

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Thou shall not kill unless 'god' allows it