Socialism or Capitalism?

[dsi411]

This is an interesting video that might change some of you guy's minds. I still haven't made up mine yet.
YEa8DpheXkM
So what do you think? Socialism or capitalism?

[Taryn98]

I've heard that story before, it's pretty common and accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMqNL7sIhGs&feature=c4-overview&list=UUr5FAf7Zu21MsfUpe5JrmoA

[Vlerchan]

I laughed. I'll explain why:

1. Saint Reagan being the voice of anti-taxation; everyone likes to forget how he actually raised various taxes, and broadened tax bases (http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/02/barack-obama-ronald-reagan-budget-taxes-opinions-contributors-rob-shapiro.html) post-1981 - Rothbard, who despite being super-Capitalist is enjoyable to read, had a lot to say on this. (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard60.html)
2. Painting Obama as a Communist/Socialist, again. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:Obamunism) Obama is centre-right.
3. Strawmanning ObamaCare as - or the beginning of - an attempt to redistribute all of America's wealth.
4. Believing that the Welfare State in America began with Obama.
5. Portraying Bill Clinton as a lecherous ass.

However, one thing that I knew would be wrong from simply reading the title of the thread was that it would be proposed - again - that Capitalism and Socialism can't work together; that it's one or the other. Again, I can only point out how fallacious this is: the two - capitalism and socialism - are not water and oil, they can and do mix. The largest and most prosperous economies in the world - ignoring those hideously oil-rich OPEC nations - all happen to be this aforementioned mixture - i.e Socialised Democracy's.

[sqishy]

NOT capitalism for me. I'm not impressed by the idea of socialism either...

[Cygnus]

This just seems to be another republican vs democrat thread, and that sucks, none is better than the other, they both suck as much as any other political system, you need balance between socialistic and capitalistic measures, not full inclination towards one or another.

[britishboy]

This just seems to be another republican vs democrat thread, and that sucks, none is better than the other, they both suck as much as any other political system, you need balance between socialistic and capitalistic measures, not full inclination towards one or another.

I agree, while I am right wing, things like the NHS are needed

[Stronk Serb]

Hm. Socialism pretty much everywhere was badly implemented. They did not actually pay for work in most cases, that's why it went to hell.

[darthearth]

This just seems to be another republican vs democrat thread, and that sucks, none is better than the other, they both suck as much as any other political system, you need balance between socialistic and capitalistic measures, not full inclination towards one or another.

I tend to agree with this. I think a balance between capitalistic and socialistic policies is the way, with capitalism predominate. Rather amusing video though although I disagree with the characterization of Obama, he is not a socialist (government owning/controlling all means of production) in any stretch of the imagination.

[britishboy]

capitalism all the way

[tovaris]

LOL one must only laugh at unitedstatian education :))

Socialism isn't a system its a transitional state. I mean seriously open a dictionary.

[Cygnus]

I agree, while I am right wing, things like the NHS are needed

capitalism all the way

You technically contradicted yourself to some extent there.

[Vlerchan]

A proper response to the video (No, I'm not a Marxist):

The purpose of Socialism is actually to increase the importance of personal incentives and give individuals a meaning to their work. Capitalism destroys personal incentive in favour of private interests - see: Marx's theory of the Alienation of Labour. Incentive is not suddenly killed because outcomes are evenly distributed: an individual may work hard for a number of reasons - i.e., they enjoy their work, or they enjoy the social recognition that comes with certain positions. It'd be nothing like averaging an entire classes test scores; hard-working individuals would still receive recognition for their hard-work.

There's also Market Socialism. There still can be a private sector if you define one to be 'Firms - of which are not controlled by the state - engaging in economic activity', but these firms would be similar to the co-operatives of which actively engage in economic activity today. The main distinction between both models - Capitalism and Market Socialism - is that in a Market Socialist economy the Workers would be in direct control of the Capital as opposed to the Entrepreneur.

[Guillermo]

This video is a joke. It's absurdly biased. I suppose they'd be fun to watch if one was half-sober. But it's funny because the joke is on both parties who think that full-fledged capitalism or socialism can work. I'm in favor of both a strong private sector and a state sector controlling key areas with a generous welfare system. Much like the Norwegian model (which is not a socialist one).

[Stardust]

Capitalism with nation-specific government intervention IMO would be the best global system. That means an abandonment of neoliberal uniformity. Within America (and only America, not looking globally) between Capitalism and socialism...well...both? I like the idea of social security systems existing in a capitalist system. I also think that video was stupid. It's not just redistributing wealth 50/50.

[ElijahMouth]

I find flaws in both, but I am much more against capitalism than socialism. At this point in my life I consider myself an anarchist. I despise the fact that here in the US the government has control over so much.

[Fallen_Eagle]

I haven't seen a proper demonstration of socialism yet, so I can't really come up with a fair judgement.

[Kasp]

This video is a joke. It's absurdly biased. I suppose they'd be fun to watch if one was half-sober. But it's funny because the joke is on both parties who think that full-fledged capitalism or socialism can work. I'm in favor of both a strong private sector and a state sector controlling key areas with a generous welfare system. Much like the Norwegian model (which is not a socialist one).

I agree with this entirely! That video was far too biased to take any real sense from.
In my opinion America is too conservative at the moment and things like state health care ARE needed there. Despite this I think some European countries are a little too far to the left. The UK is a good example of a country that that gives benefits too readily.
With socialism and capitalism it's about finding a balance between the two, and there are only very few countries that have found that balance.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

I find that both have their flaws, but socialism is overally a better system.

[Sph2015]

While I am slightly liberal in the political sense, and would probably be democratic in most cases, Capitalism. No brainer for me. Certainly not interested in getting in some huge discussion, but I've never been impressed by anything other than Capitalism.

LOL one must only laugh at unitedstatian
education :))

Not sure what you're getting at here, but I'm getting a great education at a public United States high school, and have been accepted to one of the best Universities in the world. Don't knock it 'till you try it!

[johndoe1112]

how about anarchism lolz

[johndoe1112]

I agree with this entirely! That video was far too biased to take any real sense from.
In my opinion America is too conservative at the moment and things like state health care ARE needed there. Despite this I think some European countries are a little too far to the left. The UK is a good example of a country that that gives benefits too readily.
With socialism and capitalism it's about finding a balance between the two, and there are only very few countries that have found that balance.

lol why do you care england is to liberial and how are your anti gun laws treating you there is still murders i see

[Stronk Serb]

Socialism. Capitalism's age of prospergty is at an end.

[Vlerchan]

how about anarchism lolz
How exactly do you intend to implement this age of Anarchy? I assume guns will be involved in some way - which is rather ironic in itself, I might add - but the actual creation of a leaderless society won't simply happen over night and it's going to need to be structured - presumably by leaders. (I'm assuming you're a left-anarchist here by the way; I've a fair idea how right-anarchism will be implemented - though I'd be interested in your opinion either way.)

[Harry Smith]

lol why do you care england is to liberial and how are your anti gun laws treating you there is still murders i see

Too liberal? Yeah I hate getting free health care!

Anti-gun laws don't stop murders... they stop school massarces- in Britain someone went into a school and killed 17 children with a pistol, we banned pistols in the next year and it hasn't happened again.

I don't want a lecture about gun control- Britain's laws are perfectly fine, they stop people having easy access to high powered weapons, we don't rely on a 200 year old piece of paper as are logic- we actually evolve

[Kasp]

lol why do you care england is to liberial and how are your anti gun laws treating you there is still murders i see
Are you serious!? I don't agree with all of our policies but our healthcare is leagues ahead of the USA's and that was introduced by the Labour party (liberal)... Countries around the world have emulated it and improved it yet the USA is still lagging behind. Why? Because they are so insistent that capitalism is perfect. Which it isn't. Not even close.
And yes our anti gun laws have significantly reduced gun related murders... Like they were supposed to. Another concept America is yet to grasp.

[Sugaree]

how about being naive and thinking we can live without a governing set of laws, even though that would cause the eventual collapse of society as we know it and Rome would burn lolz

Fixed that for you.

Too liberal? Yeah I hate getting free health care!

Anti-gun laws don't stop murders... they stop school massarces- in Britain someone went into a school and killed 17 children with a pistol, we banned pistols in the next year and it hasn't happened again.

I don't want a lecture about gun control- Britain's laws are perfectly fine, they stop people having easy access to high powered weapons, we don't rely on a 200 year old piece of paper as are logic- we actually evolve


All you liberals ever do is talk about "evolving". All I see a liberal do is simply change their opinion. That's not evolving.

[Harry Smith]

Fixed that for you.




All you liberals ever do is talk about "evolving". All I see a liberal do is simply change their opinion. That's not evolving.

Evolution on issues is one the foundations in Britain and one of the main ideas of the third way , it's not a case of changing fundamental policies such as the idea of allowing for universal health care or equal rights, it's a case of moving forward on the issues rather than doing what conservatives do and keep the same social and political views until they lose an election

[britishboy]

Capitalism all the way, however certain things shouldnt be privatised such as the Justice system and the MoD

[Harry Smith]

Capitalism all the way, however certain things shouldnt be privatised such as the Justice system and the MoD

But capitalism all the way would mean that it would be privatized...

We shouldn't sell of our country to the highest bidder, look at what happened when we tried it with the Olympics with G4S they didn't deliver and we had to use British Troops as security.

If anything we should encourage the government to start re-investing and buying back the railroads and the gas works allowing the government to have actually control rather than CEO's in foreign countries who don't even pay taxes in Britain.

How can you advocate un-managed capitalism after we had a finicial crash in 2008 which shows what happens if you don't regulate the bankers, and look how had to intervene and save these great capitalist institutes- the government

[Sugaree]

Evolution on issues is one the foundations in Britain and one of the main ideas of the third way , it's not a case of changing fundamental policies such as the idea of allowing for universal health care or equal rights, it's a case of moving forward on the issues rather than doing what conservatives do and keep the same social and political views until they lose an election

Wait, and you don't think there aren't some liberals who don't keep the same views and lose elections?

[Harry Smith]

Wait, and you don't think there aren't some liberals who don't keep the same views and lose elections?

The main point I'm trying to make is about social issues-something that that conservatives and the republicans in America are both falling drastically behind in.

In the UK you had the conservative party pretty much abandon they're core beliefs and platforms, and claim to be modernizers whilst the moment they win power they retreat back to their bizarre right wing policies of the 1990's, the whole basis of conservatism in Britain is trying to stay in 1990's in key policy areas when we need to be progressive on key issues such as abortion, gay rights and drug decriminalization

[tovaris]

. Capitalism's age of prospergty is at an end.
I conpletly agre. As it has happend in the past the obsolete sistem will fail and be replaced

[britishboy]

If anything we should encourage the government to start re-investing and buying back the railroads and the gas works allowing the government to have actually control rather than CEO's in foreign countries who don't even pay taxes in Britain.



Private companies compete creating a better service.

And how does their nationality matter?

How can you advocate un-managed capitalism after we had a finicial crash in 2008 which shows what happens if you don't regulate the bankers, and look how had to intervene and save these great capitalist institutes- the government
I didn't mention regulation?...

I conpletly agre. As it has happend in the past the obsolote sistem will fail and be replaced

Cough Soviet Russia cough


-please do not double post. -Emerald Dream

[tovaris]

Cough Soviet Russia cough

You dont see many fewdal lords runing around anymore do you? That is because the fewdal sistem has been replaced by another which will enturn be replaced by its sucsesor.

[britishboy]

You dont see many fewdal lords runing around anymore do you? That is because the fewdal sistem has been replaced by another which will enturn be replaced by its sucsesor.

True thay was a bad system but capitalism is fine, all major parties support it to some extent, what would you replace it with? and don't say communism.

[tovaris]

True thay was a bad system but capitalism is fine, all major parties support it to some extent, what would you replace it with? and don't say communism.

The fact we are talking aboit it shows us that it is melfunctioning.

True thay was a bad system but capitalism is fine, all major parties support it to some extent, what would you replace it with? and don't say communism.

'He bare fackt we are talking aout it shows us it is melfunctioning and needs to be replaced.
Ok i wont SAY it ;)


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[britishboy]

'He bare fackt we are talking aout it shows us it is melfunctioning and needs to be replaced.
Ok i wont say it :)

I agree capitalism is not perfect, but I believe it has no viable alternative and I personally think capitalism is beautiful. Why not fix the problems? Polish capitalism instead of a system change?

You should know I have nothing against communists as after all you guys are just trying to better society and I know pure communism has never existed, my problem is 1) I'm scared of it and 2) I don't believe society would try to better themself and instead slack or cut corners and I'm sure you know the problems that would cause in a communist society.

[Harry Smith]

Private companies compete creating a better service.

And how does their nationality matter?

I didn't mention regulation?...



Cough Soviet Russia cough


-please do not double post. -Emerald Dream

Private comapanies create a better service- I'm sorry have you used southern rail before, or did you happen to leave the country during the Olympics, the government paid this group called G4S and they didn't show up http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/supportservices/10070425/Timeline-how-G4Ss-bungled-Olympics-security-contract-unfolded.html

I thought everyone knew this? You must of been asleep during the months it was talked about...

Private services in regards to many options don't offer a better service, the UK health system which is government ran is ranked much better than the private US system. It's an extremely broad statement to claim that private companies perform better than public ones

Please back your arguments up with fact and stop adding stupid opinions such as this is beautiful- this is a politics debate not a beauty contest.

'Capitalism all the way' as you call it would be one without any form of regulation from the government- I thought you would know your own doctrine

[WaffleSingSong]

Both are horrible in there purest form. Unless, if you mean Socialism as in democratic control of the workplace instead of a bossman ruling everything, then thats cool, yet Utopian. Of course, most governments have a mixed economy anyway, despite how capitalistic or socialistic they might claim to be, especially the most two-faced nation in the world on this issue, PR China. There SEZ's are a good example of how lassez-faire Capitalism is awful, and the rest of China shows how pure, government-oriented Socialism is awful.

However, times are changing, and every day people are becoming more and more socialist and liberal minded, and Capitalism is the losing man in this battle. And in fact, I am growing back to a more socialist-minded point of view anyways, and hell, im a Libertarian.

[Jean Poutine]

Capitalism is what makes me able to charge you 10$ (at 200$/hr) for calling you to set up an appointment to my office, reading your one-line email or listening to your voicemail while I wank one off in my office (perhaps I'll even charge you the tissue I used to wipe it off my black toga). I'm not shitting, lawyers really charge you one-twentieth of an hour (3 minutes) to call you to set up an appointment with them. You can call me a thief and go look for another lawyer, except the other one you've found will do the same exact thing. They all will, because if there's a need and no regulations, human nature will try to get more and more, pushing the envelope until they get at that sweet-spot where they can't rip you off for any more money because you do not care (or know) enough to try and get a fairer rate, but care enough to be wary of their shenanigans. If one guy manages to find a trick to get more money, all the others will follow suit and use that little trick to get ever closer to that sweet-spot.

Meanwhile though, we forget about things like being our brothers' guardian, the healthy development of one's internal ego and societal consciousness and just trek forward to new goods to enjoy for ourselves, because with capitalism, all that counts is ourselves, and if we can make or save money by making your life Hell, we sure will, as the gang of legally trained rabid hyenas we are. All that just so we can turn around and consume the ever-living fuck out of our planet with the money that should be yours (since in a world that makes sense, you should be able to understand what your birth in society binds you to via the social contract without years of specialized training) yet isn't because you have made the mistake of not being able to comprehend this overly complicated, elitist, downright illogical little invention we lawyers have set up for our sole benefit so there will always be demand for our skills since nobody outside of the bar will ever stand a chance of getting what it all means : the legal system. Welcome to the profit motive. We've hitched a whole system that should be for the common good into a "no Homer" club just to line our pockets. What do you think CEOs, foremen, bosses everywhere, entrepreneurs everywhere will do to save money? Open on Thanksgiving to take advantage of a gang of morons ready to trample people to death to save 100 bucks on a shitty TV just after they've supposedly given thanks for what they already own and organize charity events for their own employees not to go hungry instead of actually paying them what their work is worth - ie at least a living wage? (http://rt.com/usa/walmart-food-drive-thanksgiving-employees-929/)

In fact, did you know that in post-Norman England, while French was disappearing from the elites (who started speaking English, that god-forsaken language of the common plebeian), there was a single class of people who not only retained French, but actually fabricated a specialized trades language using it as its base? They were lawyers, and they did this for the sole reason of keeping their monopoly because like the Catholics and their Latin Bible, they had hives just thinking about what would happen to them if the common rabble could actually understand their obligations and rights. They'd have less social prestige and would make less money, so in the name of money and profit, they actually went so far as writing law in an alien language that didn't even make sense to the actual French themselves, much less the people actually bound by it.

Talk about tricks to rip off the whole population, eh?

Welcome to capitalism.

Capitalism is revolting and actually kind of downright evil. You'd know if you'd ever seen a lawyer's billing practices before. Those who have, should give, and if they won't give, we should take (as the government does when it taxes). Workers should have control of their living and their destiny. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

See you in Hell, you rich fucks.

[Stronk Serb]

True thay was a bad system but capitalism is fine, all major parties support it to some extent, what would you replace it with? and don't say communism.

Incorporate leftist ideas into the society. In time, the result should be anarcho-communism or something similar. It won't change in an instant. The change from feudalism to capitalism took several centuries.

[ksdnfkfr]

I wish there could be a good balance of both.

[tovaris]

I agree capitalism is not perfect, but I believe it has no viable alternative and I personally think capitalism is beautiful. Why not fix the problems? Polish capitalism instead of a system change?



Why not polish fewdalism?



1) I'm scared of it and

don't be scared ;)

2) I don't believe society would try to better themself and instead slack or cut corners and I'm sure you know the problems that would cause in a communist society.

People wont slack of. (i am being conservative with words since we have drifted slightly of topic, would lov to discus any questions doubts etc in the right place)

LP
M

[Ashthefox]

capitalism all the way

I agree

[JohnJack]

I laughed. I'll explain why:

1. Saint Reagan being the voice of anti-taxation; everyone likes to forget how he actually raised various taxes, and broadened tax bases (http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/02/barack-obama-ronald-reagan-budget-taxes-opinions-contributors-rob-shapiro.html) post-1981 - Rothbard, who despite being super-Capitalist is enjoyable to read, had a lot to say on this. (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard60.html)
2. Painting Obama as a Communist/Socialist, again. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:Obamunism) Obama is centre-right.
3. Strawmanning ObamaCare as - or the beginning of - an attempt to redistribute all of America's wealth.
4. Believing that the Welfare State in America began with Obama.
5. Portraying Bill Clinton as a lecherous ass.

However, one thing that I knew would be wrong from simply reading the title of the thread was that it would be proposed - again - that Capitalism and Socialism can't work together; that it's one or the other. Again, I can only point out how fallacious this is: the two - capitalism and socialism - are not water and oil, they can and do mix. The largest and most prosperous economies in the world - ignoring those hideously oil-rich OPEC nations - all happen to be this aforementioned mixture - i.e Socialised Democracy's.

Obama is definitely far from center-right.

[JohnJack]

The main point I'm trying to make is about social issues-something that that conservatives and the republicans in America are both falling drastically behind in.

In the UK you had the conservative party pretty much abandon they're core beliefs and platforms, and claim to be modernizers whilst the moment they win power they retreat back to their bizarre right wing policies of the 1990's, the whole basis of conservatism in Britain is trying to stay in 1990's in key policy areas when we need to be progressive on key issues such as abortion, gay rights and drug decriminalization

Frankly, no we do not need to be progressive on any of those issues. If only Thatcher could come back and put the world back in line.

[Melodic]

5 month bump

:locked2: