Fair Pay for Everyone?

[redcar]

In Ireland we have a minimum wage, every person who works must be paid at least €8.65 an hour.

This way everyone gets fair pay. But should they?

One economist put it this way,
"The low-paid are badly paid, not because they are paid less than they are worth, but because they are worth appallingly little."

Do people who are lazy, not motivated etc. etc., deserve to be paid the same as people who work hard?

[Hyper]

Thats bullshit, people are paid less because some fat bastards want to earn money

And how are you supposed to be motivated if you work for enough money to barely survive?

[redcar]

The harder you work, you can get promotions, move up. If you don't you stay where you are.

Money is not a motivator by the way.

[Maverick]

If people are too lazy and don't do a good job they should be fired. The minimum wage should only be something so people can get an ok amount of pay to somewhat survive.

If you work hard then if you work for a good company then they should give you (individually) a raise and oppurtunity for advancement in the company which then leads to more pay for doing a high level job.

[Whisper]

thats not always true Alex theres allot of politics at work as well its not all about who's the hardest worker
Its not as easy as hard work to get the promotions

[Hyper]

Money is the main motivation for working, nothing comes close to it.

And not every job has a chance to advance.

[Maverick]

And not every job has a chance to advance.Bullshit. If you work hard you can advance whether its with your current job or changing jobs and finding a better oppurtunity elsewhere.

[redcar]

No money is not a motivator. It can act as a demotivator but never a motivator. For example you work in building and your job is to clean toilets, only toilets, but you get paid more than the average wage. The money is not going to motivate you more to go to work. At the end of the day you are still cleaning shit. But if the money wasn't at that level you would be demotivated. See where I am coming from?

I know Cody the world of work is a bitch and its not easy, but take this in a hypothetical near perfect world.

Ok say a person is lazy but not lazy to the point of being dismissed, should they get paid the same as someone who is working twice as hard as them in the same job?

[Maverick]

Ok say a person is lazy but not lazy to the point of being dismissed, should they get paid the same as someone who is working twice as hard as them in the same job?
I think those who work harder should be rewarded with a raise.

Like at my job the guy I work with on my shift makes a dollar more than me. We have the same job but he's been there for good while and does a really good job and goes beyond what he's supposed to do. So it makes sense for him to get paid more.

[Hyper]

No money is not a motivator. It can act as a demotivator but never a motivator. For example you work in building and your job is to clean toilets, only toilets, but you get paid more than the average wage. The money is not going to motivate you more to go to work. At the end of the day you are still cleaning shit. But if the money wasn't at that level you would be demotivated. See where I am coming from?

I know Cody the world of work is a bitch and its not easy, but take this in a hypothetical near perfect world.

Ok say a person is lazy but not lazy to the point of being dismissed, should they get paid the same as someone who is working twice as hard as them in the same job?

Okey.. I don't know what planet are you from but let me put it to you this way..

Would you give a fuck about your job if you earned minimum wage? Do you know a country that has a NORMAL minimum wage, the kind of minimum wage that would allow you to pay rent, buy food and pay your other bills and feel like a human being in the end of the day? As in you'd be able to survive with basic things.

Now I can't think of one..

And for the motivation part. Your a ''Specialist'' you are also a personal secretary at the same time, you write reports and speeches for your superior, you also do the accounting for wages on a sector with 106 people.

You do this job every day and its hard, you get paid same much as a cashier at a super market..

Now would you be motivated to work the job more if you got paid more. (That is a real life example and the person who did that job was eventually a nervous wreck and she quit the job after 8 years, and is still depressed)

Also same to you Dante what planet are you from? If I work in a fucking factory line what damn chance of advancement do I have? What kind of advancement oppurtunities do people like janitors have or teachers for example.. Kindergarden teachers.. Not to mention the jobs with specific education requirements

Its not that simple in life that if you work hard you get somewhere, knowing the right people and being at the right place at the right time helps, IF you are lucky and can communicate you can achieve alot but not everyone is and/or not everyone is at the right place at the right time.

[chris__robin]

Hyper man you need to relax
yeah not all jobs can advance you to an obvious promotion, like the example you said for a kintergarden teacher ... but they have studied and worked to get to that career and for jobs like teachers they can also move up within a school, by becoming co-ordinators of faculties etc ...

if a janitor at a school works hard and is recognised for the work he or she does, it may be enough to start their own business and build success from the happy clients they have served over the years, and then have people working for them as cleaners.

advancing in a career can continue depending on an individuals perception of success. if a person is happy with their job and the level they have achieved they will not necessarily need to strive to earn more money. while money is the obvious reason people work, there is also passion for the work they do. why do you think people study for years on end at university to get into a profession? if people were not passionate about their careers and only worked for money everyone would be doing the easy jobs requiring minimal effort and education. the world would be screwed then.

oh btw ... people in a factory line? my dad now works in a factory which is one of the biggest meat factories in australia and he is one of the operations managers, meaning he is responsible for a whole floor of workers and orders... so far coming from working in a little shop in the suburbs hey? if you put your mind to what you want to do and work hard enough, it can be done.

[Maverick]

I agree with you Chris.

[Hyper]

Hyper man you need to relax
yeah not all jobs can advance you to an obvious promotion, like the example you said for a kintergarden teacher ... but they have studied and worked to get to that career and for jobs like teachers they can also move up within a school, by becoming co-ordinators of faculties etc ...

if a janitor at a school works hard and is recognised for the work he or she does, it may be enough to start their own business and build success from the happy clients they have served over the years, and then have people working for them as cleaners.

advancing in a career can continue depending on an individuals perception of success. if a person is happy with their job and the level they have achieved they will not necessarily need to strive to earn more money. while money is the obvious reason people work, there is also passion for the work they do. why do you think people study for years on end at university to get into a profession? if people were not passionate about their careers and only worked for money everyone would be doing the easy jobs requiring minimal effort and education. the world would be screwed then.

oh btw ... people in a factory line? my dad now works in a factory which is one of the biggest meat factories in australia and he is one of the operations managers, meaning he is responsible for a whole floor of workers and orders... so far coming from working in a little shop in the suburbs hey? if you put your mind to what you want to do and work hard enough, it can be done.

Sure it all depends on the company, but most companies will rather fuck you and use you as much as possible instead of advancing you.

It also depends on the school, not every school will be needing class teachers and such..

And what does opening up a business have to do with promotion?

Also not everyone is lucky enough to go to a college or even university, and there are people who never really know what they want so they just study something, or change the subject in the middle of things.

The fact is money is the biggest motivator, why the hell do you think people want to get promoted in the first place?

[Maverick]

Well money is one motivator but eventually you outgrow what you've been doing and tired of doing the same thing and know you can do better which then creates a desire for promotion.

[Hyper]

Well money is one motivator but eventually you outgrow what you've been doing and tired of doing the same thing and know you can do better which then creates a desire for promotion.

I'm not saying money is the only motivator.

If you are actually lucky enough to have a job that you genuinely like then yes proving yourself is also a big, and just the fascination for the job.

But in the end of the day I would be most motivated by money, unless I go to Africa to supply medicine and food or unless I become a doctor.. Or something else related to something social, and also not so hardcore.

[Octo22]

Hyper, I'm pretty sure you completely miss the concept of minimum wage.

"You do this job every day and its hard, you get paid same much as a cashier at a super market.."

NO. Guess what? Everywhere you work ISN'T MINIMUM WAGE.


Part-time jobs, student jobs, etc. usually are minimum wage, because it's for extra cash, not LIFE.

Secretary, Janitor, Teacher make HELL OF A LOT MORE.

minimum wage in canada is currently 7.75$ an hour, or 8$ if you're 18+.

Well when I got hired here, minimum wage hadn't raised yet and was still 7$ an hour, I was hired at 9.60$ an hour. But clearly money motivated me! Hell no, I'm in it for the resume, the work experience, I haven't spent a dime of my money because it's either going to uni or splurging. But I'm not in it for it!

[redcar]

Okey.. I don't know what planet are you from but let me put it to you this way.......


I am doing a degree in Business and have studied various theories on motivation and the psychology of workers etc etc.... money is not a motivator. A psychologist came up with a good theory, you should have a read of him, Frederick Herzberg.

When you enter the world of work you will see that money is not something that is a big factor. Things like personal growth, responsibilty, promotion all become your motivators.

[Whisper]

I am doing a degree in Business and have studied various theories on motivation and the psychology of workers etc etc.... money is not a motivator. A psychologist came up with a good theory, you should have a read of him, Frederick Herzberg.

When you enter the world of work you will see that money is not something that is a big factor. Things like personal growth, responsibilty, promotion all become your motivators.

I agree with that one hundred percent
Just in the jobs I've had
and our business

I just think that a good minimum wadge is necessary because like it or not its not a perfect world theres ALLOT of politics

Alberta is lucky from the workers perspective right now because of the labour shortage
they have allot more power and allot less stress because if they don't like there job or there boss is a dick before they leave the building they can have another job
so minimum wadge in Northern Alberta especially is a flat out insult
but its not like that everywhere

[chris__robin]

hyper, it seems like you haven't started working yet, but from my own personal experience i have worked for KFC, a fast food chain for 5 years. now i could have found a new job a long time ago which pays a lot better than any fast food place around, but it is not my life its just the money i need now while i study at uni to become a teacher.

my point is, the reason i have stayed at my job isn't money, its because i have been able to learn more and move up to a management position, and i didnt want this for money, it was because a friend of mine who i worked with pushed me to do it because she knew i would be great at the job, and personally i think i am ;)

[Hyper]

Hyper, I'm pretty sure you completely miss the concept of minimum wage.

"You do this job every day and its hard, you get paid same much as a cashier at a super market.."

NO. Guess what? Everywhere you work ISN'T MINIMUM WAGE.

Part-time jobs, student jobs, etc. usually are minimum wage, because it's for extra cash, not LIFE.

Secretary, Janitor, Teacher make HELL OF A LOT MORE.

minimum wage in canada is currently 7.75$ an hour, or 8$ if you're 18+.

Well when I got hired here, minimum wage hadn't raised yet and was still 7$ an hour, I was hired at 9.60$ an hour. But clearly money motivated me! Hell no, I'm in it for the resume, the work experience, I haven't spent a dime of my money because it's either going to uni or splurging. But I'm not in it for it!

The NO guess what is unclear to me.. The cashier doesn't get minimum wage, just the difference in tasks and work load.. If you have a job that demands hell out of you, you'd expect to be paid well for it. And where the hell did I say all of my examples are minimum wage? I usually agree with most of what you have to say but sorry read my post and if it is unclear to you re-assure yourself..

And I don't think we can count in temporary high school jobs as a debate factor for fair pay and careers.

I am doing a degree in Business and have studied various theories on motivation and the psychology of workers etc etc.... money is not a motivator. A psychologist came up with a good theory, you should have a read of him, Frederick Herzberg.

When you enter the world of work you will see that money is not something that is a big factor. Things like personal growth, responsibilty, promotion all become your motivators.

So money is not a motivator at all?.. Okey thats intresting.. I can't say much about that.. Infact I can't think of any arguement besides the comparing of 2 jobs with different work loads and responsibilites with the same pay..

My point is, if you even understood wtf I meant with the 2 jobs thing lol.. Is that if you work 3x harder than a person who earns the same amount of money than you, then you will hardly be motivated to do anything, infact the only motivation left is that you can't switch jobs and that you need the pay you are getting atm to pay your bills and buy your food.

It also makes you feel like crap if you do 3x more work than someone and get paid the same much as the person who does 3x less than you. It makes you feel that your job is unappreciated or that YOU are unappreciated. Money shows how much you are valued, pats on the back and a few words of encouragement are secondary.

Also since you guys are talking about ''promtion'' here and there.. What comes with a promotion?

More work, more responsibility... But in the end a pay-check with larger numbers.

hyper, it seems like you haven't started working yet, but from my own personal experience i have worked for KFC, a fast food chain for 5 years. now i could have found a new job a long time ago which pays a lot better than any fast food place around, but it is not my life its just the money i need now while i study at uni to become a teacher.

my point is, the reason i have stayed at my job isn't money, its because i have been able to learn more and move up to a management position, and i didnt want this for money, it was because a friend of mine who i worked with pushed me to do it because she knew i would be great at the job, and personally i think i am ;)

I may be 14 but I have had more jobs than you can imagine, and don't ask me how.. I've had to use alot of contacts to do anything, but I have been lucky to know ppl who run their own business's or have really good friends.

And back to what I said to Octo about working a job and going to school, I used the word high school there, thats a bit generalized but yeah I think you can understand what I meant by that phrase.


Now we've gone into a different part of the ''working'' world with our debate

But when I read your initial question.. ''In Ireland we have a minimum wage, every person who works must be paid at least €8.65 an hour.

This way everyone gets fair pay. But should they?

One economist put it this way,
"The low-paid are badly paid, not because they are paid less than they are worth, but because they are worth appallingly little."

Do people who are lazy, not motivated etc. etc., deserve to be paid the same as people who work hard?''

Sorry but when I read that I don't understand the question..

Are you asking should there be a minimum wage? Or should people be paid fair? I don't see the logic in your initial question anywhere..

If you are asking should people be fair then we'd have to define what is fair..

[Octo22]

And I don't think we can count in temporary high school jobs as a debate factor for fair pay and careers.

Well I'm pretty sure we're arguing mainly that factor!

Should everyone be paid the same? i.e MINIMUM WAGE.

When you're older this argument is null, no one has fair pay. The harder worker will make more, IN THE SAME ROLE. I'll make more than a woman in the same role.

There's no 'set' payment except for minimum wage, so it seems the only thing arguable.

[redcar]

My point is, if you even understood wtf I meant with the 2 jobs thing lol..
Oh please when it comes to matters like this don't take the "If you understood what I meant" road. I know a lot about this subject, so don't try that technique.


Also since you guys are talking about ''promtion'' here and there.. What comes with a promotion?

More work, more responsibility... But in the end a pay-check with larger numbers.

Yep more money does come with a promotion but that doesn't motivate people. That is not to say that people don't like the extra money, or don't become happier, but the point I am making is that the money does not motivate people. If people get a promotion and have all this extra work and the money does not match this extra work then the money can act as a demotivator. But it never acts as a motivator.

It is like a company's mission, health and safety, these don't motivate people but if they are not present or unsatisfactory people will become demotivated.


But when I read your initial question.. ''In Ireland we have a minimum wage, every person who works must be paid at least €8.65 an hour.

This way everyone gets fair pay. But should they?

One economist put it this way,
"The low-paid are badly paid, not because they are paid less than they are worth, but because they are worth appallingly little."

Do people who are lazy, not motivated etc. etc., deserve to be paid the same as people who work hard?''

Sorry but when I read that I don't understand the question..

Are you asking should there be a minimum wage? Or should people be paid fair? I don't see the logic in your initial question anywhere..

If you are asking should people be fair then we'd have to define what is fair..

The question is fairly simple. Governments across the world have introduced minimum wage but is this the right thing to do? Why pay people who don't work hard and people who do work hard at same rate?

[Hyper]

Oh please when it comes to matters like this don't take the "If you understood what I meant" road. I know a lot about this subject, so don't try that technique.

What? You need to chill.. I was making a joke about myself, since I don't feel like I explained it right.

So don't try the jerk technique on me :P

Yep more money does come with a promotion but that doesn't motivate people. That is not to say that people don't like the extra money, or don't become happier, but the point I am making is that the money does not motivate people. If people get a promotion and have all this extra work and the money does not match this extra work then the money can act as a demotivator. But it never acts as a motivator.

Anything that acts as a demotivator also acts as a motivator.. If I get more responsibilities with my job I expect to be paid accordingly, if my pay stayed the same I'd be demotivated.. If my pay increased I'd loose the de-motivation and feel a bit more motivated..

Lol that made me think, how can you become motivated again if you are demotivated in the first place? Motivation..

The question is fairly simple. Governments across the world have introduced minimum wage but is this the right thing to do? Why pay people who don't work hard and people who do work hard at same rate?

Well if you are asking that you should supply something basic that you think could be an alternative to the minimum wage.

And how would companies determine who works hard and who doesn't work hard?

[redcar]

Anything that acts as a demotivator also acts as a motivator.. If I get more responsibilities with my job I expect to be paid accordingly, if my pay stayed the same I'd be demotivated.. If my pay increased I'd loose the de-motivation and feel a bit more motivated..

Lol that made me think, how can you become motivated again if you are demotivated in the first place? Motivation..

Well you see you are wrong there. Some factors act as demotivators but never motivators. Take a companies health and safety at work. It is something you take for granted. You are not going to get up in the morning and say "Yay I am going to work where I will be safe!". However if a company does not create a safe working environment you may be demotivated to work because suddenly it is unsafe. It is the same as money, it can act as a demotivator but never a motivator.

Well if you are asking that you should supply something basic that you think could be an alternative to the minimum wage.

And how would companies determine who works hard and who doesn't work hard?
Well I implied an alternative with my nice quote as well. Pay people what they are worth. If they are worth very little pay them as such.

Companies could use evaluation systems, which they currently use for other aspects of the job.

[chris__robin]

when we talk about motivation here is it a general sense of motivation, or are different people talking about things like
intrinsic motivation (performing tasks because you are passionate and they make you feel happy)
and extrinsic motivation (doing tasks for material rewards)

i mean, if we talk about money its an external source of reward for work, whereas other people suggest that people work for the other reasons such as their responsibilites or the sense of accomplishment and worth or satisfaction. i think there are fair arguements for both sides.

[Hyper]

Okey.. I can't let the motivation go.. I just can't

Heres the last few things that come to my mind atm.

Try going to work without money, lets see how well does your chance of career and promotion work.

Also not everyone wants to make a career or get promoted, and as I said you CAN NOT make a career everywhere.

Also most people who work simple jobs go to work for money..

I don't get it maybe I misunderstand you, what do you consider money to be? And yes same as chris asked...

I see motivation as something that gets you to get out of bed and go to someplace and do what you are supposed to do with care and attention.


And how would these systems work? redcar, you know the weakest link in it would be the person/s evaluating

[redcar]

Oh I forgot about this thread.

Try going to work without money, lets see how well does your chance of career and promotion work.
As I said money is demotivator but not a motivator. Of course you wouldn't be motivated going to work for no money.

Also not everyone wants to make a career or get promoted, and as I said you CAN NOT make a career everywhere.
Thats very true. Many people just work because they have to. They have to support their families... in that case the family is the motivation.


Also most people who work simple jobs go to work for money..

But why do they want the money? I work a simple job. But why do I need it, because I need it for college, I need it to go out with friends, I need it do everyday things. Thats my motivation, without my job I couldn't do that.

I see motivation as something that gets you to get out of bed and go to someplace and do what you are supposed to do with care and attention.

Exactly thats what motivation is. But you are only looking at the surface. Like you go to school and are motivated to get good grades. But what do they mean? They mean a future, prospects of a good job. If they had no meaning you wouldn't be motivated to get them. Money is similar. It is the means to get what you are motivated for, and at that only for a short time.

And how would these systems work? redcar, you know the weakest link in it would be the person/s evaluating
Well they are in place already in companies. Appraisals. Your manager sets you a target and at the end of a certain period your actual results are compared against the target. If you under perform you get paid less. Simple as that.

[Hyper]

Well how do you know that the manager is genuinely fair and exact in his evaluation?

And about your motivation to do simple things and hang out with your friends etc, go to college..

It all comes down to money if you had no money you couldn't do them, if you go to work you expect to be paid because well our society is based around currency as it is ugh a means of trade so to speak, without money you couldn't go to college or buy food.

Thats the fact if my motivation for work is to support my family I'd sure as hell be more motivated if my pay was raised since I could offer my family a better life..

Anyway.. I consider minimum wage necessary it is a means to base certain pays off and it sets a minimum for the work suppliers that should be enough to survive with ( though it never is ) it is supposed to be a certainty to protect the workers.

Evaluating is a good thing sure, but half of the time the evaluator would try to mess around, make the evaluation worse or better because of his/her personal relationship with the person he/she is evaluating, some people would even base it on rumors, of course that could all be solved with a fully competent work force of the evaluators but reality is that there will always be a bad apple or two or a dozen :D

Of course when we look at it realisticly thats the way it always is but there has to be a limit to the amount of bad apples for a system to be considered valid.

Either way there has to be a system to make sure the evaluators aren't abusing their privileges, but that already gets us to the road of who will evaluate the evaluaters, evaluators?

[Octo22]

Well how do you know that the manager is genuinely fair and exact in his evaluation?

Because unless you work in some shitty McDonalds, most are.


It all comes down to money if you had no money you couldn't do them, if you go to work you expect to be paid because well our society is based around currency as it is ugh a means of trade so to speak, without money you couldn't go to college or buy food.

Thats the fact if my motivation for work is to support my family I'd sure as hell be more motivated if my pay was raised since I could offer my family a better life..


You're failing to see the slightly bigger picture. Remove the friends, the college, the family. Why would you be motivated to work? What's the point of money? It's all those things that MOTIVATE YOU to want money. You're motivated to do those things, not GET money.



"Either way there has to be a system to make sure the evaluators aren't abusing their privileges, but that already gets us to the road of who will evaluate the evaluaters, evaluators? "

There is, it's called a hierarchy. Manager, CEO, etc.

[Hyper]

Because unless you work in some shitty McDonalds, most are.



You're failing to see the slightly bigger picture. Remove the friends, the college, the family. Why would you be motivated to work? What's the point of money? It's all those things that MOTIVATE YOU to want money. You're motivated to do those things, not GET money.



"Either way there has to be a system to make sure the evaluators aren't abusing their privileges, but that already gets us to the road of who will evaluate the evaluaters, evaluators? "

There is, it's called a hierarchy. Manager, CEO, etc.

No I'm not. Society created currency, I am not motivated to work because of my friends or some other BS like that, if I had my own family to support then yes that is a motivation

But simply saying that money isn't a motivator is absolute bullshit.


And as for your last cocky line, the managers, ceo's do other things and if you just used your imagination you'd realize theres no guarantee that the CEO himself is fair the fact is that there will always be someone out there looking for personal gain or just kicks by fucking someones as you call it ''career'' up.

As I said they are always there and always will be.

But the thing is if a person is lazy you obviously fire him, after following correct procedures of course... In other words if the work personel is already observed for their performances there's no reason to create extra work just to remove minimum wage and make pays based on performance everywhere.

If a person is lazy and underperforms he/she will be fired that is a fact that applies to any business..

And if you consider fair pay to be pay based on performance then also consider the amount of extra work would it take to calculate out that performance value and the extra work required to evaluate someones performance wholly enough to pay them purely based on their performance.

Oeh I am going on a rant here basically what I mean is lazy people get fired in any decent business and the people who work don't

[Octo22]

Let me just say, if a shitty evaluator (supervisor is the correct term) takes advantage of you, then the person deserves it.

We had one when I used to work at Dollarama, we'd always stay late and never get paid on top of other things, we were fired if we threatened to call the labour board. So we called their superiours and they got sued the money we worked overtime and we made it back. Simple as that.

And seriously what's with all this corporate hate? I've seen maybe 2, non-movie examples, in which there's been a corrupt boss and the situation is always dealt with accordingly. There's a system to deal with things like that.

[Hyper]

Let me just say, if a shitty evaluator (supervisor is the correct term) takes advantage of you, then the person deserves it.

We had one when I used to work at Dollarama, we'd always stay late and never get paid on top of other things, we were fired if we threatened to call the labour board. So we called their superiours and they got sued the money we worked overtime and we made it back. Simple as that.

And seriously what's with all this corporate hate? I've seen maybe 2, non-movie examples, in which there's been a corrupt boss and the situation is always dealt with accordingly. There's a system to deal with things like that.

Heh I've known more, and I am just a realist...

Basically 70% of the people in charge have ego issues, 40% of them have serious ego issues, and about 10-20% take them out on their staff.

[redcar]

Basically 70% of the people in charge have ego issues, 40% of them have serious ego issues, and about 10-20% take them out on their staff.

What report is that based on?

[Hyper]

What report is that based on?

Thats based on realism, everyone has a slight ego problem.. And a self esteem problem. Well not everyone but 70% sure is fair..

And I'm not goint to look for some ''scientific study conducted on 1500 people to determine the stats of a few hundred million in society''

Thats just my experiences if you live in some wonderous utopia let me know where it is.

[redcar]

Well in fairness you can't just be pulling figures out of thin air like that making general sweeping statements.

[Octo22]

Thats based on numbers I enjoy.


Fixxed.

[Hyper]

Fixxed.

Right.. It seems to me you are just an asshole.

And it seems to me both of you have nothing to say..

So lets just agree to disagree since I don't like arguing with people who base life on ''studies, facts and figures''

Haven fun doing that I'll sticked to the ''numbers I enjoy''

[redcar]

Well in fairness you just plucked numbers out of the air, we were having a good debate however when you debate not only do you need to make an arguement you need to be able to back it up as well.

[Octo22]

Well in fairness you just plucked numbers out of the air, we were having a good debate however when you debate not only do you need to make an arguement you need to be able to back it up as well.

Agreed.

I could just say 'well in my life experiences, there's a 90% chance of having a good evaluator, so this must be true for the whole world.'

[Archduke Robert of France]

I wish that were the minimum wage here. I make $12.56/hr at my job at the hotel, more than my parents who are working for peanuts. What I would do for more money...

[Whisper]

Ya minimum wadge heres an insult
lol

[Zephyr]

Minumum wage in my state is $7.95,
But I make $8.05.

[redcar]

Irish minimum wage is €8.65 which converts to US$12.88 or CAN$12.84 or STG£6.48.

Overall I am pretty divided by minimum wage, in one way it supports a somewhat socialist view I have. But on the other hand why should companies be forced to pay people a wage they don't deserve.