Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

[Sir Suomi]

State your opinions here on what side of this debate you're on. I haven't seen this topic come around here for a long time now, and I thought I'd try and spark up another debate. Please though, try to stay civil :D

[conniption]

I'm kinda scared to answer because this is a very touchy subject, but....I'm pro-choice.

[ksdnfkfr]

I think if an abortion is going to be performed, it should be preformed in the earliest stage of pregnancy possible.

[LouBerry]

It's murder. That's a life. Or the "potential" for a life. Either way, you're cutting a life short. I'm pro-life, but I also think that abortions should be legal, because women are always going to do it, and you might as well make sure that they don't hurt themselves, because at home methods are really dangerous .

[conniption]

It's murder. That's a life. Or the "potential" for a life. Either way, you're cutting a life short. I'm pro-life, but I also think that abortions should be legal, because women are always going to do it, and you might as well make sure that they don't hurt themselves, because at home methods are really dangerous .

So, your pro-choice, but personally wouldn't abort a baby?

[LouBerry]

So, your pro-choice, but personally wouldn't abort a baby?

No, and yes.

I wouldn't abort, I think that abortion is cowardly and horrific, and I fully support choosing life. That doesn't mean I think abortion should be illegal. I would never support the murder of a child, but I don't support the unintentional death of mother and child due to at home abortions either. Just like everything else, this isn't always just black and white. There are always shades of grey.

[teen.jpg]

It's not murder because it's not a child. It's not fully-grown.

It's up to the mother (and a bit of the father too).

[conniption]

It's not murder because it's not a child. It's not fully-grown.

It's up to the mother (and a bit of the father too).

Well, according to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a child in utero is a legal victim if it happens to die during a crime of violence. So, it's not murder if the mom doesn't want to keep it, but it's murder if someone else kills it? That, is where it gets tricky.

[Southside]

I really dont support it unless rape,incest,harm to mothers health, socioeconomic factors, fetal defect. I'm not against it from a Christian standpoint, I'm against it from a personal standpoint. Just the thought of a potential human being killed in the womb is just sickening to me for some reason...Though I dont think it should be illegal..

Unless the mother is going through the things I just stated above, I really dont see the need for abortion. I think adoption is a less cruel method if you dont want a child, its plenty of people out their who wouldnt mind taking in a little baby.

[James Bond]

I'm pro life. But if it risks the mothers life, then I'd be pro choice, or if its a case of rape I'm pro choice.

I'm a hypocrite when it comes to this situation, though. If there were a few issues with the baby, I would abort it (I won't state what issues those issues would have to be).

I really dont support it unless rape,incest,harm to mothers health, socioeconomic factors, fetal defect. I'm not against it from a Christian standpoint, I'm against it from a personal standpoint. Just the thought of a potential human being killed in the womb is just sickening to me for some reason...Though I dont think it should be illegal..

Unless the mother is going through the things I just stated above, I really dont see the need for abortion. I think adoption is a less cruel method if you dont want a child, its plenty of people out their who wouldnt mind taking in a little baby.

Umm, isn't that why anyone else is pro choice? It sounds like you're pro choice.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[CharlieHorse]

I'm definitely pro-choice.
But people must know that that DOES NOT MEAN PRO-ABORTION!
Every situation is different. It's the mother's choice, but the choice for the abortion should be made for a damn good reason.

[Walter Powers]

I hate the pro-choice and pro-life labels. They are simply political marketing terms designed to make each group's opinion sound better. But I'll use them for the sake of this debate.

The problem with this issue is on one end you have the "pro-choice" people, on one end, who really passionately think it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion a few weeks after conception. On the other end, you have the pro-life people who are horrified by the idea it should be legal to abort a baby a few weeks before birth. There's a way to satisfy both groups.

Now the first thing I turn to when examining a social issue like this is the Constitution. The Constitution does not mention abortion, so that means it is a power delegated to the states, as per the Tenth Amendment. Anyone pushing for a federal ban or a federal guarantee of abortion rights would be violating the constitution.

So, this is a states issue. Within the state, I think it would be logical to pass a law guaranteeing the legality of abortions for the first couple weeks, that satisfies the demands of one crowd, and also specifically bans abortions in he last few weeks of pregnancy except if a doctor can determine that the woman will more likely die then the child will live, which will satisfy the other.

After that, I really don't know, if I was a governor I'd employ a balanced team of scientists to research it to determine when it becomes inhumane to preform such a procedure. I'd ask them to figure out when a baby becomes more cognitively developed then something that would be considered animal abuse to kill, and from that point on I'd ban abortion again except if the woman will more likely die then the child live, should she have the baby.

Personally, however, the thought of abortion makes me sick to the stomach. You are killing a soon to be person. I've also read stories of would be mothers who have had one and it's haunted them for the rest of their lives, and they wish they could undo it. If I had a female friend who was debating getting one, I would highly discourage them from it as you can't undo it. Adoption is the much better option if you can't raise the child; there are ton's of couples who can't have their own children on waiting lists to raise them.

[Gigablue]

No, and yes.

I wouldn't abort, I think that abortion is cowardly and horrific, and I fully support choosing life. That doesn't mean I think abortion should be illegal. I would never support the murder of a child, but I don't support the unintentional death of mother and child due to at home abortions either. Just like everything else, this isn't always just black and white. There are always shades of grey.

I agree that it's a nuanced issue, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge women who choose to have abortions. The decision is no doubt one of the hardest in their lives. Regardless of your stance on abortion, I wouldn't fault women for doing what they think is best given the circumstances.

Now the first thing I turn to when examining a social issue like this is the Constitution. The Constitution does not mention abortion, so that means it is a power delegated to the states, as per the Tenth Amendment. Anyone pushing for a federal ban or a federal guarantee of abortion rights would be violating the constitution.

This is one of the things I hate most about Americans. They assume everyone cares about their constitution. I will make myself very clear, I don't care about the American constitution. When having a debate about ethics, we should use logic and ethical principles, not just the law. Something does not become ethical because it is written in the American constitution.

So, this is a states issue. Within the state, I think it would be logical to pass a law guaranteeing the legality of abortions for the first couple weeks, that satisfies the demands of one crowd, and also specifically bans abortions in he last few weeks of pregnancy except if a doctor can determine that the woman will more likely die then the child will live, which will satisfy the other.

I see abortion as a human rights issue. Saying states should be able to decide whether or not a woman's human rights are valid is simply absurd. If abortion is ethical, it should be allowed everywhere, and if it is unethical, it shouldn't be allowed anywhere. States shouldn't be able to invalidate human rights.

After that, I really don't know, if I was a governor I'd employ a balanced team of scientists to research it to determine when it becomes inhumane to preform such a procedure. I'd ask them to figure out when a baby becomes more cognitively developed then something that would be considered animal abuse to kill, and from that point on I'd ban abortion again except if the woman will more likely die then the child live, should she have the baby.

While this seems good on the surface, it would have massive problems. Firstly, you would no doubt get some scientists with agendas. You couldn't find completely unbiased people to examine the evidence. Secondly, what animal would you compare it to; an insect, a fish, a cat, a chimpanzee. Everyone has their own idea of which animals it would be cruel to hurt.

I think the comparison to animals is the absurd part, you can't compare a foetus to an animal. They have different competences. It would make more sense to look at the foetus and see when it acquires different traits. At that point, you would have to decide if those traits give it the right to personhood or not, and weigh those against the mother's rights.

[LouBerry]

I agree that it's a nuanced issue, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge women who choose to have abortions. The decision is no doubt one of the hardest in their lives. Regardless of your stance on abortion, I wouldn't fault women for doing what they think is best given the circumstances.


I try hard not to. But the thing is, I know how it feels. I had a pregnancy scare last year, that was something I had to think about. So, you bet your ass I know how hard that decision is. But, think about it like this: I believe that abortion is murder. I think it's just a bad as shooting someone. Ending a life. And that horrifies me. Really. To me, there really is no difference. So can you see how...monstrous this all seems to me? How gruesome it is?

But to address you more directly, of course I care about those woman, that's why I'm for abortion clinics to be legal, and I understand why some woman couldn't deal with rape/incest situations that resulted in a pregnancy, but if you aren't on birth control, or you don't make your boyfriend wear condoms, and you get pregnant and get an abortion, that's when I think it's cowardly.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Pro-choice and pro-abortion until 29 weeks. Because the fetus isn't actually living until that point.

[thatcountrykid]

I think that if you were willing to have sex un protected and careless the you should not blame the child and kill. If you are gonna have unprotected sex you better make sure your ready to have a child.

[teen.jpg]

I try hard not to. But the thing is, I know how it feels. I had a pregnancy scare last year, that was something I had to think about. So, you bet your ass I know how hard that decision is. But, think about it like this: I believe that abortion is murder. I think it's just a bad as shooting someone. Ending a life. And that horrifies me. Really. To me, there really is no difference. So can you see how...monstrous this all seems to me? How gruesome it is?

But to address you more directly, of course I care about those woman, that's why I'm for abortion clinics to be legal, and I understand why some woman couldn't deal with rape/incest situations that resulted in a pregnancy, but if you aren't on birth control, or you don't make your boyfriend wear condoms, and you get pregnant and get an abortion, that's when I think it's cowardly.

I'd rather have a baby not be born then be born in a bad family, but maybe that's just me.

[EddietheZombie]

Oh shit here we go..... im Pro-Life. Why would you want to eliminate another human life? Some people make the incorrect argument that its not a child, but the cells are alive at the earliest stages, and is going to become a child. I think its wrong, if you werent ready for a child then you werent ready for sex. And in the case of rape, atleast give birth and decide whether you want the baby or not. If you dont, put him\her up for adoption. Give them the chance to live life, instead of taking it away. Who are we to take away that life? The mother shouldnt even be able to decide, because its not her life ending. Unless the very rare case that they both would die, i dont think it should be legal. And before anyone tries to argue with me, ask yourself even if your a guy, "Do i have the "Human Right" to end anothers life, just so i dont have to take care of them?".

Edit: And on the Christian side of me.If your own mother had aborted you and you were in heaven (Or whatever you believe) would you have been mad that you didnt even have a chance to live? Or would you have thought it was "alright"

[Harry Smith]

Pro Choice- I don't want to return to the days where woman were having backstreet abortions and dying as a result.

[Yolo98]

Let women get abortions , chances are that the baby would be brought up in a dysfunctional household anyways.

[teen.jpg]

Oh shit here we go..... im Pro-Life. Why would you want to eliminate another human life? Some people make the incorrect argument that its not a child, but the cells are alive at the earliest stages, and is going to become a child. I think its wrong, if you werent ready for a child then you werent ready for sex. And in the case of rape, atleast give birth and decide whether you want the baby or not. If you dont, put him\her up for adoption. Give them the chance to live life, instead of taking it away. Who are we to take away that life? The mother shouldnt even be able to decide, because its not her life ending. Unless the very rare case that they both would die, i dont think it should be legal. And before anyone tries to argue with me, ask yourself even if your a guy, "Do i have the "Human Right" to end anothers life, just so i dont have to take care of them?".

Edit: And on the Christian side of me.If your own mother had aborted you and you were in heaven (Or whatever you believe) would you have been mad that you didnt even have a chance to live? Or would you have thought it was "alright"

1. Why would you raise something for 9 months you don't want/can't take care of. In all honestly an abortion is 10x more responsible then having the child if you weren't ready. Mistakes happen.

2. I don't see why religion has any place in this discussion, but I guess that's just the easiest way for someone to get support on their opinion. Go figure.

[EddietheZombie]

1. Why would you raise something for 9 months you don't want/can't take care of. In all honestly an abortion is 10x more responsible then having the child if you weren't ready. Mistakes happen.

2. I don't see why religion has any place in this discussion, but I guess that's just the easiest way for someone to get support on their opinion. Go figure.

Oh so if you had a kid and didnt want them after a few months youd just kill them? Thats the least you could do for the kid is to let them live.

And religion doesnt have much to do with it other than in most its a sin to kill. And people like you do that to get people to agree with you. Go figure.

[teen.jpg]

Oh so if you had a kid and didnt want them after a few months youd just kill them? Thats the least you could do for the kid is to let them live.

You know that's not nearly what I was saying.

And I don't think you understand what abortion is. Abortion is the ending of a pregnancy, not the end of a life. Because there was no life yet.

If abortion is murder, then I guess so is using a condom, because your killing sperm, which could be a baby. Or not having sex at all. Because your wasting sperm that could be a baby.

That being said, I'm not pro-abortion. But if that's the decision someone wants to make, then that's their choice.

[Jess]

Pro-choice. No one else has the right to make decisions for other people (not talking about parents making decisions for their kids), let alone for other people's BODIES. Abortion should be safe and legal, and remain that way.

It is not murder because a fetus is not a person. If it was then I suppose every woman who have had an abortion should go to prison for life because they're a murderer.

In cases of rape, the woman should most definitely not be forced to give birth. If she does want to have the child, that's fine - it's HER choice. But if she doesn't - that should also be up to her as well. She should not be forced to endure months of sickness and pain to go through a pregnancy that was the result of a traumatic experience.

The fetus's "rights" should not trump over a woman's.

If you don't like abortion, fine. Don't get one (if you're a female). But don't tell others not to get one if they want one just because you think it's wrong or you don't want one; it's within their right to choose for themselves, not other people (let alone men or the government).

If a woman doesn't want an abortion, she shouldn't be forced to have one. But if she does want one, she should be able to have one.

[Sir Suomi]

Just going to add something here:

Let's say that you crash into another car, and end up killing a women. Then it turns out that this women is pregnant, and you are then charged with a double vehicular homicide, due to the fact you killed both the mother and the unborn fetus. So in that sense, law dictates that the fetus is indeed an individual, which means that an abortion is a homicide, which means all abortion clinics are, according to the Double Murder law, illegal.

[Jess]

Just going to add something here:

Let's say that you crash into another car, and end up killing a women. Then it turns out that this women is pregnant, and you are then charged with a double vehicular homicide, due to the fact you killed both the mother and the unborn fetus. So in that sense, law dictates that the fetus is indeed an individual, which means that an abortion is a homicide, which means all abortion clinics are, according to the Double Murder law, illegal.

That issue has been nagging me for a very long time. Unfortunately I don't know how to answer to it. But I still stand by my viewpoint that abortion should be safe and legal and women should be able to make their own choices (been like this from the very first time I learned about abortion).

[Its Pretty]

Let women get abortions , chances are that the baby would be brought up in a dysfunctional household anyways.

So true +1 And the parents are probably slightly dysfunctional too for wanting an abortion in the first place... we don't want those genes to be spread :yeah:

[EddietheZombie]

You know that's not nearly what I was saying.

And I don't think you understand what abortion is. Abortion is the ending of a pregnancy, not the end of a life. Because there was no life yet.

If abortion is murder, then I guess so is using a condom, because your killing sperm, which could be a baby. Or not having sex at all. Because your wasting sperm that could be a baby.

That being said, I'm not pro-abortion. But if that's the decision someone wants to make, then that's their choice.

Yes a fetus is alive. There is brain activity and the cells are alive. Therefore it is alive.
And using a condom isnt because it takes the egg and the sperm to make a baby.
Its is the end of a life, and that life never gets to see the day. I dont think you understand its not that simple of an ordeal. The way you make it sound is like its as simple as clicking an off button.

Pro-choice. No one else has the right to make decisions for other people, let alone for other people's BODIES. Abortion should be safe and legal, and remain that way.

It is not murder because a fetus is not a person. If it was then I suppose every woman who have had an abortion should go to prison for life because they're a murderer.

In cases of rape, the woman should most definitely not be forced to give birth. If she does, that's fine - it's HER choice. But if she doesn't - that should also be up to her as well. She should not be forced to endure months of sickness and pain to go through a pregnancy that was the result of a traumatic experience.

The fetus's "rights" should not trump over a woman's.


Why cant the baby have a chance at all? Even if by something traumatic shouldnt they atleast live? And im mainly talking about a women that gets pregnant by accident and tries to have an abortion. Its just wrong. By rape.... i would still say atleast give birth, because it still isnt right to take an innocent life. Kill the rapist if you want, they are the scum of the earth anyway. Just put the baby up for adoption if you dont want him/her.

So true +1 And the parents are probably slightly dysfunctional too for wanting an abortion in the first place... we don't want those genes to be spread

Thats genocide talk^^....

[Sir Suomi]

That issue has been nagging me for a very long time. Unfortunately I don't know how to answer to it. But I still stand by my viewpoint that abortion should be safe and legal and women should be able to make their own choices (been like this from the very first time I learned about abortion).

But should that law be changed? I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong. I'm stating that if people, like you, who are pro-choice, rally behind the idea that the fetus has no rights due to the fact that it is not "alive", that you should state that the law is inaccurate, and should be changed, to where only the mother's death would be counted.

[Jean Poutine]

Pro-choice.

If aborting really is murder...then the woman's the one who's going to have to live with that for the rest of her life. It has no bearing on society, so no reason to be legislated by society. It's up to her to make decisions concerning her body and to live with the aftermath, no one else.

Some women will abort because they were raped, some will abort because of "mistakes"...but make no mistake, an abortion is a tough emotional process. We can try to rationalize it all we want but from personal experience, my sister had 2 and it's devastated her for the rest of her life. No, they may not be alive, but they may well have been given a few months. My sister still has nightmares about it, especially the last one, which was a girl who would have shared her birthday. Does that mean they should be illegal? No, my sister was like 16, at even at 44 she can't take care of her fucking kids. She was given the choice and that was perfectly right. I'm saying the consequences of that choice are punishment enough.

That pain alone I think is a good price to pay for being an idiot and using abortions as contraception, insofar as they can't rationalize it themselves via any logical reason other than "I should've used a condom". If you're going to go that far because you were stupid and didn't use protection, the trauma following it is dissuading and punishment enough. We don't need to go back to pre-Morgentaler where women had abortions in dark alleys.

For any other reason (ie. rape, a congenital defect), it's fully acceptable to me.

PS : abortions really oughta have a term limit. Late-term abortions are incredibly dangerous to the mother, and you certainly shouldn't have to wait THAT long to decide if you want the fucking baby or not. If you've got 2 months left, just carry it to term and give it up for an adoption, you've done most of the work anyway. Anything over 24 weeks is really pushing the envelope, especially as fetuses are generally viable (thus alive by some definitions) by then.

[Vlerchan]

I'm for abortion by request up until the end of the first trimester. During the second and third trimester I would call for abortion only if the mother's life is at risk.

Yes a fetus is alive. There is brain activity and the cells are alive. Therefore it is alive.
The Foetus' brain has not fully developed until the end of the first trimester. It also lacks awareness and the ability to live independent of the mother; two things that I would deem necessary in my definition of 'Life'.

12th week 78-84 days: The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. At twelve weeks gestation, the thalamus, third ventricle, midbrain, brain stem, and cerebellar hemispheres are developed.

[sqishy]

Abortion can be seen as an evil act, but if it is called into whether it should be done or no due to medical reasons, this lesser "evil" prevents a greater one (such as both the mother and baby dying).
I think abortion is ok, when it is needed due to medical or social reasons (such as having to bring up a baby by yourself at age 17), before the fetus has developed its nervous system to the point that it can feel pain.

Don't fall either in Pro-Life or Pro-Choice entirely, but closer to the Pro-Choice side.

[Southside]

Pro-choice. No one else has the right to make decisions for other people (not talking about parents making decisions for their kids), let alone for other people's BODIES. Abortion should be safe and legal, and remain that way.

It is not murder because a fetus is not a person. If it was then I suppose every woman who have had an abortion should go to prison for life because they're a murderer.

In cases of rape, the woman should most definitely not be forced to give birth. If she does want to have the child, that's fine - it's HER choice. But if she doesn't - that should also be up to her as well. She should not be forced to endure months of sickness and pain to go through a pregnancy that was the result of a traumatic experience.

The fetus's "rights" should not trump over a woman's.

If you don't like abortion, fine. Don't get one (if you're a female). But don't tell others not to get one if they want one just because you think it's wrong or you don't want one; it's within their right to choose for themselves, not other people (let alone men or the government).

If a woman doesn't want an abortion, she shouldn't be forced to have one. But if she does want one, she should be able to have one.

Why do murderers get charged with double homocide when they kill pregnant women?

It's not only the mothers choice either, Im tired of seeing "mothers decesion", if the father isnt a rapist or a dead-beat, he should also have a say so too.

[Jess]

Why do murderers get charged with double homocide when they kill pregnant women?

As I said before, I don't really know how to answer that, unfortunately :/ But I still don't believe it's murder (apologies of this offends anyone, but I'll go and say that miscarriages could be involuntary manslaughter, if abortion is murder. Even though it's something you can't prevent at all).

And if it's murder, we'll have to jail every woman who's had an abortion - including young girls who've been raped and any girl or woman who've been raped...or anyone who had to have one because the pregnancy risked their life - because they're murderers.

[LouBerry]

I'd rather have a baby not be born then be born in a bad family, but maybe that's just me.

Well, that's your choice, well, I guess not your choice, but still. Every woman has that choice, and like I said, I understand it. Jesus guys, I'm not parading around trying to take away woman's rights, when I become a politician, that's something I'm going to fight for. I just morally don't condone it.

[Gigablue]

Yes a fetus is alive. There is brain activity and the cells are alive. Therefore it is alive.

No one is saying the foetus isn't alive, just that it isn't a person. All the cells are alive, and there is brain activity. However, for much of the pregnancy, there isn't sufficient brain activity to produce any consciousness. The foetus is alive but not sentient and not a person.

And using a condom isnt because it takes the egg and the sperm to make a baby.
Its is the end of a life, and that life never gets to see the day. I dont think you understand its not that simple of an ordeal. The way you make it sound is like its as simple as clicking an off button.

In both cases, you stop a person from being born. The foetus is not a person, but will become one given time. The exact same thing can be said about a sperm and egg separated.

Why cant the baby have a chance at all? Even if by something traumatic shouldnt they atleast live? And im mainly talking about a women that gets pregnant by accident and tries to have an abortion. Its just wrong. By rape.... i would still say atleast give birth, because it still isnt right to take an innocent life. Kill the rapist if you want, they are the scum of the earth anyway. Just put the baby up for adoption if you dont want him/her.

The important thing to remember is that the foetus doesn't suffer during the procedure. They lack sufficiently developed pain pathways, so they don't feel any physical pain. Furthermore, they don't have any consciousness, so they can't care about the termination of the pregnancy. It isn't a net negative for the foetus. All in all, it is completely neutral.

The Foetus' brain has not fully developed until the end of the first trimester. It also lacks awareness and the ability to live independent of the mother; two things that I would deem necessary in my definition of 'Life'.

Actually, brain development takes much longer. The basic structures have formed by the end of the first trimester, but the brain is far from complete. Awareness doesn't come until far into the second trimester or into the third. The ability to survive outside of the mother comes at about 24 weeks.

Why do murderers get charged with double homocide when they kill pregnant women?

Only the mother has the right to terminate a pregnancy. She is the one who has to give up her body for nine months. As a result, we must say her rights against those of the foetus. With a homicide, there is no such balance. The foetus is not biologically dependant on the murderer, so the foetus's rights take precedence.

It's not only the mothers choice either, Im tired of seeing "mothers decesion", if the father isnt a rapist or a dead-beat, he should also have a say so too.

Does the father have to sustain the foetus? Does the father have to give birth? The fact is that the mother has a much greater contribution, therefore she has a much greater say. Ideally, the father should be consulted, but if the two disagree, the mother should always have the final say.

Oh shit here we go..... im Pro-Life. Why would you want to eliminate another human life? Some people make the incorrect argument that its not a child, but the cells are alive at the earliest stages, and is going to become a child.

An egg cell and a sperm cell will become a child as well. Both cells are alive.the only thing that stops them from developing is human intervention. Why aren't you also opposed to any and all forms of contraception, since they achieve the same end as abortion?

I think its wrong, if you werent ready for a child then you werent ready for sex.

Many women who get abortions weren't ready for sex. So what? Should we punish them by forcing an unwanted pregnancy upon them. Also, you punish the child. It is better to not be born than to be born unwanted. Lastly, why punish only the mother? Why shouldn't you punish the father in the same way?

The mother shouldnt even be able to decide, because its not her life ending. Unless the very rare case that they both would die, i dont think it should be legal. And before anyone tries to argue with me, ask yourself even if your a guy, "Do i have the "Human Right" to end anothers life, just so i dont have to take care of them?".

The mother should be able to decide since her body is the one being affected. Also, while no one has the right to end someone else's life, you do have the right to choose not to create another life.

I try hard not to. But the thing is, I know how it feels. I had a pregnancy scare last year, that was something I had to think about. So, you bet your ass I know how hard that decision is. But, think about it like this: I believe that abortion is murder. I think it's just a bad as shooting someone. Ending a life. And that horrifies me. Really. To me, there really is no difference. So can you see how...monstrous this all seems to me? How gruesome it is?

I guess it all comes down to whether the foetus is a person or not. Since the foetus isn't self aware, can't feel pain, can't think, etc., I don't think it is a person. It will become one, but at the time of an abortion, it isn't one. Therefore I see abortion in the same way I see contraception: preventing a life from being created. Preventing a life and ending a life are not the same.

But to address you more directly, of course I care about those woman, that's why I'm for abortion clinics to be legal, and I understand why some woman couldn't deal with rape/incest situations that resulted in a pregnancy, but if you aren't on birth control, or you don't make your boyfriend wear condoms, and you get pregnant and get an abortion, that's when I think it's cowardly.

I wouldn't call it cowardly. I think that anyone who becomes pregnant after not using birth control has made a very bad decision. But I wouldn't call them a coward. They are in a bad situation, and abortion is one of the ways out of it.

Oh so if you had a kid and didnt want them after a few months youd just kill them? Thats the least you could do for the kid is to let them live.

A child is not biologically dependant on their parents, a foetus is. If you have an unwanted child, you should put them up for adoption. With a foetus, it's not that easy, since they still depend on the mother.

[Cygnus]

Pro-choice, because of population control and because dying could actually be a privilege to some. I agree with death penalty, euthanasia, and abortion.

[britishboy]

pro choice, freedom!

[Tarannosaurus]

Pro Choice, the woman has the right to decide what goes on in her own body.

[teen.jpg]

No one is saying the foetus isn't alive, just that it isn't a person. All the cells are alive, and there is brain activity. However, for much of the pregnancy, there isn't sufficient brain activity to produce any consciousness. The foetus is alive but not sentient and not a person.



In both cases, you stop a person from being born. The foetus is not a person, but will become one given time. The exact same thing can be said about a sperm and egg separated.



The important thing to remember is that the foetus doesn't suffer during the procedure. They lack sufficiently developed pain pathways, so they don't feel any physical pain. Furthermore, they don't have any consciousness, so they can't care about the termination of the pregnancy. It isn't a net negative for the foetus. All in all, it is completely neutral.



Actually, brain development takes much longer. The basic structures have formed by the end of the first trimester, but the brain is far from complete. Awareness doesn't come until far into the second trimester or into the third. The ability to survive outside of the mother comes at about 24 weeks.



Only the mother has the right to terminate a pregnancy. She is the one who has to give up her body for nine months. As a result, we must say her rights against those of the foetus. With a homicide, there is no such balance. The foetus is not biologically dependant on the murderer, so the foetus's rights take precedence.



Does the father have to sustain the foetus? Does the father have to give birth? The fact is that the mother has a much greater contribution, therefore she has a much greater say. Ideally, the father should be consulted, but if the two disagree, the mother should always have the final say.



An egg cell and a sperm cell will become a child as well. Both cells are alive.the only thing that stops them from developing is human intervention. Why aren't you also opposed to any and all forms of contraception, since they achieve the same end as abortion?



Many women who get abortions weren't ready for sex. So what? Should we punish them by forcing an unwanted pregnancy upon them. Also, you punish the child. It is better to not be born than to be born unwanted. Lastly, why punish only the mother? Why shouldn't you punish the father in the same way?



The mother should be able to decide since her body is the one being affected. Also, while no one has the right to end someone else's life, you do have the right to choose not to create another life.



I guess it all comes down to whether the foetus is a person or not. Since the foetus isn't self aware, can't feel pain, can't think, etc., I don't think it is a person. It will become one, but at the time of an abortion, it isn't one. Therefore I see abortion in the same way I see contraception: preventing a life from being created. Preventing a life and ending a life are not the same.



I wouldn't call it cowardly. I think that anyone who becomes pregnant after not using birth control has made a very bad decision. But I wouldn't call them a coward. They are in a bad situation, and abortion is one of the ways out of it.



A child is not biologically dependant on their parents, a foetus is. If you have an unwanted child, you should put them up for adoption. With a foetus, it's not that easy, since they still depend on the mother.

:clap: Said better then I ever could've.

But really, I don't think our opinions of right/wrong are even relevant. And some people make mistakes, why should they have to suffer for it?

Just my two cents.

[Vlerchan]

Actually, brain development takes much longer. The basic structures have formed by the end of the first trimester, but the brain is far from complete. Awareness doesn't come until far into the second trimester or into the third. The ability to survive outside of the mother comes at about 24 weeks.
Quick internet search tells me you're right. Seems 'formation' and 'development' aren't inter-changeable. Though, saying that, they certainly seems to seem closer to individual than cluster of cells at week twenty-ish. My position is still the same - pro-choice - but I'm inclined to support requests up to week twenty-four now, maybe.

Out of interest, where exactly do you stand in terms dates?

[EddietheZombie]

No one is saying the foetus isn't alive, just that it isn't a person. All the cells are alive, and there is brain activity. However, for much of the pregnancy, there isn't sufficient brain activity to produce any consciousness. The foetus is alive but not sentient and not a person.



In both cases, you stop a person from being born. The foetus is not a person, but will become one given time. The exact same thing can be said about a sperm and egg separated.



The important thing to remember is that the foetus doesn't suffer during the procedure. They lack sufficiently developed pain pathways, so they don't feel any physical pain. Furthermore, they don't have any consciousness, so they can't care about the termination of the pregnancy. It isn't a net negative for the foetus. All in all, it is completely neutral.



Actually, brain development takes much longer. The basic structures have formed by the end of the first trimester, but the brain is far from complete. Awareness doesn't come until far into the second trimester or into the third. The ability to survive outside of the mother comes at about 24 weeks.



Only the mother has the right to terminate a pregnancy. She is the one who has to give up her body for nine months. As a result, we must say her rights against those of the foetus. With a homicide, there is no such balance. The foetus is not biologically dependant on the murderer, so the foetus's rights take precedence.



Does the father have to sustain the foetus? Does the father have to give birth? The fact is that the mother has a much greater contribution, therefore she has a much greater say. Ideally, the father should be consulted, but if the two disagree, the mother should always have the final say.



An egg cell and a sperm cell will become a child as well. Both cells are alive.the only thing that stops them from developing is human intervention. Why aren't you also opposed to any and all forms of contraception, since they achieve the same end as abortion?



Many women who get abortions weren't ready for sex. So what? Should we punish them by forcing an unwanted pregnancy upon them. Also, you punish the child. It is better to not be born than to be born unwanted. Lastly, why punish only the mother? Why shouldn't you punish the father in the same way?



The mother should be able to decide since her body is the one being affected. Also, while no one has the right to end someone else's life, you do have the right to choose not to create another life.



I guess it all comes down to whether the foetus is a person or not. Since the foetus isn't self aware, can't feel pain, can't think, etc., I don't think it is a person. It will become one, but at the time of an abortion, it isn't one. Therefore I see abortion in the same way I see contraception: preventing a life from being created. Preventing a life and ending a life are not the same.



I wouldn't call it cowardly. I think that anyone who becomes pregnant after not using birth control has made a very bad decision. But I wouldn't call them a coward. They are in a bad situation, and abortion is one of the ways out of it.



A child is not biologically dependant on their parents, a foetus is. If you have an unwanted child, you should put them up for adoption. With a foetus, it's not that easy, since they still depend on the mother.

Ok but im asking does that make it alright? Why not give birth and then put them up for adoption? If you make a mistake it shouldnt be as easy as wiping a chalkboard, there should be consequences. If a women needs one for medical purposes such as they both would die, then yeah im not apposed. But if they have one just because they made a mistake is just cowardly and sickening to me that they have no values. So if im in a tough situation with money, can i go kill my tax collector, insurance agent, and anyone else that needs money from me just because im in a "Tough Situation"? The mother shouldnt be able to decide either because ITS NOT HER LIFE ENDING. I cant stress that enough, and when i make an argument on here, no one can give me direct answers. Only skating around it, or what i call a "politician answer". I want to ask everyone on here a few questions

Is it right, and why is it?
Is it a mothers right and why?
There a millions of lives extinguished because of abortions, is that right?
What makes it a "human right"?
If a couple makes a mistake, why shouldnt they own up to it?
What would you have thought if your parents wanted to have one when you were going to be born?
If it were your kid, why would you?
Would it be morally right for you to do it? And why?
And does it make it right, just because the fetus cant feel anything?

If anyone tries to skate by these with politician answers or says its alright for all the wrong reasons then that just shows a lack of empathy in this generation.

[Jess]

Ok but im asking does that make it alright? Why not give birth and then put them up for adoption? If you make a mistake it shouldnt be as easy as wiping a chalkboard, there should be consequences. If a women needs one for medical purposes such as they both would die, then yeah im not apposed. But if they have one just because they made a mistake is just cowardly and sickening to me that they have no values. So if im in a tough situation with money, can i go kill my tax collector, insurance agent, and anyone else that needs money from me just because im in a "Tough Situation"? The mother shouldnt be able to decide either because ITS NOT HER LIFE ENDING. I cant stress that enough, and when i make an argument on here, no one can give me direct answers. Only skating around it, or what i call a "politician answer". I want to ask everyone on here a few questions

Why does she have to give birth? It's not YOUR choice to make. I personally am NOT wanting to go through 9 months of PAIN and SICKNESS to give birth to a child I don't want. I most certainly won't let another stranger make that decision for me.

It's HER body, not yours. It's not up to you to decide a woman should give it up for adoption.

It's not her life ending but it's something inside HER BODY.

People have the right to believe abortion is wrong and all that, but they have no right to force it on others, especially women. They have no right to tell a woman they can't have abortion because THEY believe it's wrong. It's none of their business.

You make abortion illegal, it will still happen, but it will be done in an extremely unsafe manner and the woman will likely die. It's better for it to remain safe and legal and accessible to women of all ages.

[1_21Guns]

I think women should be allowed to control what goes on with their own body, a government, bunch of people, or single person cannot say she can't have the rights to her own body, it's just common sense.

Childbirth is still very dangerous even with todays technology and medical knowledge, it's unfair to tell someone they have to put themselves at risk.

[Luminous]

I think abortion is still a murder, it's still taking a life, however the same could be said about spiders and bugs that people kill on a daily basis. I would never, ever have an abortion myself, no matter the circumstances. I wouldn't be able to live with the guilt. However, I'm not going to say anything to a girl that has had an abortion, or wants to have one. I will support anyone who needs it. So I guess you could say I'm pro-choice.

[EddietheZombie]

Why does she have to give birth? It's not YOUR choice to make. I personally am NOT wanting to go through 9 months of PAIN and SICKNESS to give birth to a child I don't want. I most certainly won't let another stranger make that decision for me.

It's HER body, not yours. It's not up to you to decide a woman should give it up for adoption.

It's not her life ending but it's something inside HER BODY.

People have the right to believe abortion is wrong and all that, but they have no right to force it on others, especially women. They have no right to tell a woman they can't have abortion because THEY believe it's wrong. It's none of their business.

You make abortion illegal, it will still happen, but it will be done in an extremely unsafe manner and the woman will likely die. It's better for it to remain safe and legal and accessible to women of all ages.

Ok then by that logic, people are still going to do drugs, be pedophiles, and steal so we should make it right and acceptable so that way its alright. You took the politician answer and didnt answer my questions above. Apparently know one can answer them...

[Jess]

Abortion is not "all right". It's neither good or bad. But a woman should not be forced by the government or strangers to give birth when she doesn't want to.

You can't compare abortion to doing drugs and those other bad stuff. If abortion was illegal, women will do it unsafely - back alley abortions.

I already answered your question on "Why not give birth and then put them up for adoption?". It isn't your place to make the decision. And the adoption system is a bit corrupted..there are tons of children already waiting to be adopted.......



Sorry if my reply sounds lame. I'm not that good of a debater....

[EddietheZombie]

Abortion is not "all right". It's neither good or bad. But a woman should not be forced by the government or strangers to give birth when she doesn't want to.

You can't compare abortion to doing drugs and those other bad stuff. If abortion was illegal, women will do it unsafely - back alley abortions.

I already answered your question on "Why not give birth and then put them up for adoption?". It isn't your place to make the decision. And the adoption system is a bit corrupted..there are tons of children already waiting to be adopted.......



Sorry if my reply sounds lame. I'm not that good of a debater....

But drugs are illegal, and and people still do them. So should we make it legal and safe? Its the same principle. A woman should face the consequences for her actions. As far as rape.... i guess it would be "ok" in that concern. Just because of medical reasons. And if its not alright, then why is it legal?

[1_21Guns]

.
Is it right, and why is it? Abortions are right if it's what the mother wants and needs.

Is it a mothers right and why? It's her body, she has a right to decide what happens to her own body, because it's hers.

There a millions of lives extinguished because of abortions, is that right? Are the thousands of children in adoption and fostering agency's okay? no not really, if someone knows they can't care for a child properly then there's nothing wrong with preventing the child from suffering, you can say 'but they can put them up for adoption' all you want, childbirth is still very dangerous, and why feed them into a long list of kids who feel like their blood parents didn't love them enough to look after them?

What makes it a "human right"? We have a right to live, and while you can flip that and say so does the unborn child, well you'll run around in circles all day chasing that, because the mothers life is also at risk by continuing a pregnancy and the scale an abortion is allowed, the foetus doesn't feel anything, it doesn't hurt it, it's nothing more than a bunch of cells at that time.

If a couple makes a mistake, why shouldnt they own up to it? I don't really understand what you mean by that, they are owning up to it by having an abortion if they don't want the child, because they're doing the responsible thing that they feel is right.

What would you have thought if your parents wanted to have one when you were going to be born? My dad did. I was the result of a split condom and he wanted me to be aborted, but my mum told him to take a hike. While I understand why he wouldn't want a child considering his.. state, it's still my mothers choice, and she chose to keep me, if she hadn't, I'd never know would I?

If it were your kid, why would you? If I got pregnant right now I would terminate, I have a life to live and prepare to be ready to support a child, I've been brought into a broken home and I certainly wouldn't wish that on my own children by keeping it.

Would it be morally right for you to do it? And why? It's morally right because I have a right to, pregnancy is very hard on the body, it's painful. dangerous and I have a right to decide what goes on with my body. If I died because I kept the baby, is that morally right?

And does it make it right, just because the fetus cant feel anything? I think so, if the foetus felt anything it would be a different situation entirely, but they don't, so it does make it 'right' for the most part.

Some pregnancies are also terminated because the child shows signs of a disability, again at the parents choice, but why is it so 'wrong' to want to the best quality of life for your children?

EDIT:
But drugs are illegal, and and people still do them. So should we make it legal and safe? Its the same principle. A woman should face the consequences for her actions. As far as rape.... i guess it would be "ok" in that concern. Just because of medical reasons. And if its not alright, then why is it legal?

hold your horses there buddy, a woman should face the consequences? for what? the fact her man cant put a condom on? really? are you kidding me? don't take the high road when it's not your body that will ever be at risk.

[EddietheZombie]

Is it right, and why is it? Abortions are right if it's what the mother wants and needs.

Is it a mothers right and why? It's her body, she has a right to decide what happens to her own body, because it's hers.

There a millions of lives extinguished because of abortions, is that right? Are the thousands of children in adoption and fostering agency's okay? no not really, if someone knows they can't care for a child properly then there's nothing wrong with preventing the child from suffering, you can say 'but they can put them up for adoption' all you want, childbirth is still very dangerous, and why feed them into a long list of kids who feel like their blood parents didn't love them enough to look after them?

What makes it a "human right"? We have a right to live, and while you can flip that and say so does the unborn child, well you'll run around in circles all day chasing that, because the mothers life is also at risk by continuing a pregnancy and the scale an abortion is allowed, the foetus doesn't feel anything, it doesn't hurt it, it's nothing more than a bunch of cells at that time.

If a couple makes a mistake, why shouldnt they own up to it? I don't really understand what you mean by that, they are owning up to it by having an abortion if they don't want the child, because they're doing the responsible thing that they feel is right.

What would you have thought if your parents wanted to have one when you were going to be born? My dad did. I was the result of a split condom and he wanted me to be aborted, but my mum told him to take a hike. While I understand why he wouldn't want a child considering his.. state, it's still my mothers choice, and she chose to keep me, if she hadn't, I'd never know would I?

If it were your kid, why would you? If I got pregnant right now I would terminate, I have a life to live and prepare to be ready to support a child, I've been brought into a broken home and I certainly wouldn't wish that on my own children by keeping it.

Would it be morally right for you to do it? And why? It's morally right because I have a right to, pregnancy is very hard on the body, it's painful. dangerous and I have a right to decide what goes on with my body. If I died because I kept the baby, is that morally right?

And does it make it right, just because the fetus cant feel anything? I think so, if the foetus felt anything it would be a different situation entirely, but they don't, so it does make it 'right' for the most part.

Some pregnancies are also terminated because the child shows signs of a disability, again at the parents choice, but why is it so 'wrong' to want to the best quality of life for your children?

EDIT:


hold your horses there buddy, a woman should face the consequences? for what? the fact her man cant put a condom on? really? are you kidding me? don't take the high road when it's not your body that will ever be at risk.

A man has to pay child support, and that can ruin our lives too. My dad has a friend that couldnt pay it because of job loss and they took his drivers license away. Now how is he supposed to get to a job? And having an abortion because a child has a disability is just wrong on so many levels. Because its either because they dont want to be known as "The couple with the Mental kid" and they act with fake sympathy and put them down like an animal. Some times a couple just has to take the responsibility and take care of the kid. If your responsible enough to have sex, then you should be responsible enough for a kid. And its not always the mans fault. Sometimes the woman forgets to take the "pill" and its her fault. Im not laying the blame on anyone, but does it make it right to end a life because you cant except a responsibility? In that case im not responsible enough for an apartment, ill go kill the landlord. And pregnancy isnt that dangerous today anyway. And like i said, if a women has to have one for medical reasons then im not apposed. But if its because shes "Not Ready" or she still "Wants a Life" then she should have thought of that before having sex. If you make a mistake you should own up to it. If someone went and killed someone they have to own up to it, right? So why should this be any different? Just because its "humane" or something doesnt make it right. People act like nothings wrong and its as easy as wiping a a chalk board to erase your problems. There are millions of abortions, and i know that all of them arnt for medical purposes or rape. Most are from mothers that arnt ready, when they should take responsibility for their actions. The father too. They both need to be parents. Adoption is the only other thing you can do that lets the child live. Its cowardly to have an abortion be cause your not ready. When i hear that i want to tell them "You were responsible for sex but not for parenthood? Well own up to it and do your job as a parent."

I have nothing further to say.

[1_21Guns]

A man has to pay child support, and that can ruin our lives too. My dad has a friend that couldnt pay it because of job loss and they took his drivers license away. Now how is he supposed to get to a job?
And yet the woman is the only one who has to 'face the consequences'? You used your words very poorly there.

And having an abortion because a child has a disability is just wrong on so many levels. Because its either because they dont want to be known as "The couple with the Mental kid" and they act with fake sympathy and put them down like an animal.
Some disabilities leave children in a lot of pain, and unable to live normal lives. I never condoned the act of doing this, but most of the time parents only do this because they want their children to have a good life.

Some times a couple just has to take the responsibility and take care of the kid. If your responsible enough to have sex, then you should be responsible enough for a kid.
False, on a million and one levels, just so false. Sex is no longer just for making children, it's now something done recreationally, therefore people with no intent of having children will engage in sexual activity.

And its not always the mans fault. Sometimes the woman forgets to take the "pill" and its her fault.
Frankly, you're making yourself sound stupid. Some women may not be on birth control, but why is it so hard for a guy to use a condom? Why does the fact he didn't not make him as much to 'blame' as her? It takes two to make a baby. If the guy covered up there's a 99% chance that woman would not be pregnant.
Im not laying the blame on anyone,
You have, 3 times now, saying it's the womans fault, it's not a womans fault she has the reproductive organs to carry a child, if men carried them would you say it was the mans fault? or is it still the womans?

but does it make it right to end a life because you cant except a responsibility? In that case im not responsible enough for an apartment, ill go kill the landlord. And pregnancy isnt that dangerous today anyway.
That's over dramatic and completely irrelevant, on so many levels. Carrying and raising a child couldn't be less like owning an apartment. Pregnancy is incredibly dangerous. No the figures (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT) aren't high, but women do still die during birth, let alone the strain it can have on your body in the long run.

And like i said, if a women has to have one for medical reasons then im not apposed. But if its because shes "Not Ready" or she still "Wants a Life" then she should have thought of that before having sex. If you make a mistake you should own up to it.
Same point I made earlier, sex is no longer just about having children, it's recreational now and no birth control is 100%, sometimes these things happen. You can't tell a woman that because her and another person had sex and she got pregnant, it's her fault, she's an idiot and now she only has one path to deal with it.

If someone went and killed someone they have to own up to it, right? So why should this be any different?
Because it's a completely different, completely unrelated situation. You can't put everything in the same boat, life doesn't work like that.

Just because its "humane" or something doesnt make it right. And yeah there are kids in not so good foster homes, but i have a friend that i talked to who is mentally disabled and he said "At least im alive for another day". He is thankful that he is alive.
It's right if it's right for the woman who has to carry the child, imagine if you dedicated your lives to finding your blood parents? Because they gave you up? Because most of the time someone at one stage or another will want to find them. I'm not saying everyone who goes into the care system has a bad life, but what's the use in sending more children into the system?

Some of the happiest people ive met are or have been in foster homes, or are mentally challenged. People act like nothings wrong and its as easy as wiping a a chalk board to erase your problems.
There is mental backlash of having an abortion as well. Just the same as the feeling you'd get if you put your child up for adoption. It's not 'just wiping a chalk board'. It's a choice that is for the most part thought through and done because it's the right thing for that person.

There are millions of abortions, and i know that all of them arnt for medical purposes or rape. Most are from mothers that arnt ready, when they should take responsibility for their actions. The father too. They both need to be parents. Adoption is the only other thing you can do that lets the child live. Its cowardly to have an abortion be cause your not ready. When i hear that i want to tell them "You were responsible for sex but not for parenthood? Well own up to it and do your job as a parent."

I have nothing further to say.

Sex isn't just about children, for the third time. The only thing you should be responsible enough for to have sex is also to be responsible enough to use protection, which is on both peoples parts, not just the woman's. Adoption isn't always an option for people. It's not a child when it's aborted, it's a bunch of cells, and nothing more. People have abortions because they aren't ready, financially or sometimes even mentally, and I can't see an issue with that reason either. You're treating the fact that people want the best quality of life for themselves and their children like it's a crime, when it certainly is not.

[Jess]

A man has to pay child support, and that can ruin our lives too. My dad has a friend that couldnt pay it because of job loss and they took his drivers license away. Now how is he supposed to get to a job? And having an abortion because a child has a disability is just wrong on so many levels. Because its either because they dont want to be known as "The couple with the Mental kid" and they act with fake sympathy and put them down like an animal. Some times a couple just has to take the responsibility and take care of the kid. If your responsible enough to have sex, then you should be responsible enough for a kid. And its not always the mans fault. Sometimes the woman forgets to take the "pill" and its her fault. Im not laying the blame on anyone, but does it make it right to end a life because you cant except a responsibility? In that case im not responsible enough for an apartment, ill go kill the landlord. And pregnancy isnt that dangerous today anyway. And like i said, if a women has to have one for medical reasons then im not apposed. But if its because shes "Not Ready" or she still "Wants a Life" then she should have thought of that before having sex. If you make a mistake you should own up to it. If someone went and killed someone they have to own up to it, right? So why should this be any different? Just because its "humane" or something doesnt make it right. And yeah there are kids in not so good foster homes, but i have a friend that i talked to who is mentally disabled and he said "At least im alive for another day". He is thankful that he is alive. Some of the happiest people ive met are or have been in foster homes, or are mentally challenged. People act like nothings wrong and its as easy as wiping a a chalk board to erase your problems. There are millions of abortions, and i know that all of them arnt for medical purposes or rape. Most are from mothers that arnt ready, when they should take responsibility for their actions. The father too. They both need to be parents. Adoption is the only other thing you can do that lets the child live. Its cowardly to have an abortion be cause your not ready. When i hear that i want to tell them "You were responsible for sex but not for parenthood? Well own up to it and do your job as a parent."

I have nothing further to say.

Stop saying it's cowardly to have an abortion when it's none of your business what we do with our own bodies. You may not like it, but once again you have NO right telling women they can't have abortions because YOU think it's wrong.

Natalie got everything spot on. Pregnancy is still dangerous.

[EddietheZombie]

And yet the woman is the only one who has to 'face the consequences'? You used your words very poorly there.
If you read it again i said THEY, not her, not him, THEY. And yes i say women but i also included men in my paragraph.
Some disabilities leave children in a lot of pain, and unable to live normal lives. I never condoned the act of doing this, but most of the time parents only do this because they want their children to have a good life.
How good is the childs life going to be if they have none? Look at Steven Hawking. Look at what his disease has done to him. But he lives life, and that is reward enough.
False, on a million and one levels, just so false. Sex is no longer just for making children, it's now something done recreationally, therefore people with no intent of having children will engage in sexual activity.

Well this is how it should be. If they want sex dont get the genitals together. There are other ways of have that kind of fun.
Frankly, you're making yourself sound stupid. Some women may not be on birth control, but why is it so hard for a guy to use a condom? Why does the fact he didn't not make him as much to 'blame' as her? It takes two to make a baby. If the guy covered up there's a 99% chance that woman would not be pregnant.
For one you blamed men in the first place, im just defending. And its true both can do something to protect themselves. And they should.
That's over dramatic and completely irrelevant, on so many levels. Carrying and raising a child couldn't be less like owning an apartment. Pregnancy is incredibly dangerous. No the figures aren't high, but women do still die during birth, let alone the strain it can have on your body in the long run.
Ok so youd have an abortion because you dont want stretch marks? Sex less fun? Well too bad in my book. Be a parent, and own up to it. And its not like having an apartment. But the same principles are there. Problem(Child=Rent), Solution(Abortion, Kill Landlord).
Same point I made earlier, sex is no longer just about having children, it's recreational now and no birth control is 100%, sometimes these things happen. You can't tell a woman that because her and another person had sex and she got pregnant, it's her fault, she's an idiot and now she only has one path to deal with it.
No but you said its the mother will. They are both idiots and its both of there fault. They both have a path to deal with.
Because it's a completely different, completely unrelated situation. You can't put everything in the same boat, life doesn't work like that.

Same principles again. I kill someone, couple gets pregnant= both face the consequences for their actions.
It's right if it's right for the woman who has to carry the child, imagine if you dedicated your lives to finding your blood parents? Because they gave you up? Because most of the time someone at one stage or another will want to find them. I'm not saying everyone who goes into the care system has a bad life, but what's the use in sending more children into the system?
Weigh it out. Dead kid or alive kid. And its all the more reason they should keep the kid. Im not saying foster homes are the best choice, but they are the only other good option.
There is mental backlash of having an abortion as well. Just the same as the feeling you'd get if you put your child up for adoption. It's not 'just wiping a chalk board'. It's a choice that is for the most part thought through and done because it's the right thing for that person.
How is it right for anyone? A mother lives with the guilt forever, and the child never gets a life? And other people ive talked to have no empathy and that is what it feels like to them. And maybe more too.
Sex isn't just about children, for the third time. The only thing you should be responsible enough for to have sex is also to be responsible enough to use protection, which is on both peoples parts, not just the woman's. Adoption isn't always an option for people. It's not a child when it's aborted, it's a bunch of cells, and nothing more. People have abortions because they aren't ready, financially or sometimes even mentally, and I can't see an issue with that reason either. You're treating the fact that people want the best quality of life for themselves and their children like it's a crime, when it certainly is not.
Its selfish. If i got a girl pregnant i would stop everything, work part time, and finish school so i can give the kid a better life. And they arnt just a bunch of cells. Everything organic is made of cells. So can i kill someone and say "They were just a bunch of cells"? And when people do it because of financially or mentally i have two answers.
1. Get a job and work your ass off. You both decided to have sex and have the kid, you both own up and get a job.
2. You have to grow up sometime. And then would be a perfect time.

Stop saying it's cowardly to have an abortion when it's none of your business what we do with our own bodies. You may not like it, but once again you have NO right telling women they can't have abortions because YOU think it's wrong.

Natalie got everything spot on. Pregnancy is still dangerous.

Ok tell me what ending a life out of fear is? It sounds like a cowardly act to me. And people act like giving birth is as dangerous as war. A doctor can most of the time tell you if its dangerous or not. Some women take the chance and that is heroic. And id like to ask what guys think of this. If there Gf wanted to get an abortion what would they think? Because you both treat it as though its just yours. Yes it is your body but the kid is both of yours. It is made of both of you. So shouldnt the man have a say?

Edit: Sorry for misspellings ive been up 14 hours.

[Human]

I am pro choice, but I think if you can handle it, then you should consider keeping it. I wouldn't support keeping a child when it would go to a mother or couple who wouldn't have the resources for the child and herself/themselves. Overall, pro choice! I don't think the baby is a baby until a lot of weeks in.

[1_21Guns]

If you read it again i said THEY, not her, not him, THEY. And yes i say women but i also included men in my paragraph.

How good is the childs life going to be if they have none? Look at Steven Hawking. Look at what his disease has done to him. But he lives life, and that is reward enough.

Well this is how it should be. If they want sex dont get the genitals together. There are other ways of have that kind of fun.

For one you blamed men in the first place, im just defending. And its true both can do something to protect themselves. And they should.

Ok so youd have an abortion because you dont want stretch marks? Sex less fun? Well too bad in my book. Be a parent, and own up to it. And its not like having an apartment. But the same principles are there. Problem(Child=Rent), Solution(Abortion, Kill Landlord).

No but you said its the mother will. They are both idiots and its both of there fault. They both have a path to deal with.

Same principles again. I kill someone, couple gets pregnant= both face the consequences for their actions.

Weigh it out. Dead kid or alive kid. And its all the more reason they should keep the kid. Im not saying foster homes are the best choice, but they are the only other good option.

How is it right for anyone? A mother lives with the guilt forever, and the child never gets a life? And other people ive talked to have no empathy and that is what it feels like to them. And maybe more too.

Its selfish. If i got a girl pregnant i would stop everything, work part time, and finish school so i can give the kid a better life. And they arnt just a bunch of cells. Everything organic is made of cells. So can i kill someone and say "They were just a bunch of cells"? And when people do it because of financially or mentally i have two answers.
1. Get a job and work your ass off. You both decided to have sex and have the kid, you both own up and get a job.
2. You have to grow up sometime. And then would be a perfect time.



Ok tell me what ending a life out of fear is? It sounds like a cowardly act to me. And people act like giving birth is as dangerous as war. A doctor can most of the time tell you if its dangerous or not. Some women take the chance and that is heroic. And id like to ask what guys think of this. If there Gf wanted to get an abortion what would they think? Because you both treat it as though its just yours. Yes it is your body but the kid is both of yours. It is made of both of you. So shouldnt the man have a say?

Edit: Sorry for misspellings ive been up 14 hours.

So let me get this straight right, you think everyone should either be abstinent or be forced to give birth against their will? Do you realise how insane that sounds? That was right last century, times have moved on and things are a lot different now, women are allowed choices, they are allowed to speak and stand up for themselves.
It's very easy for you being male to stand there and say I'd support a kid, but it's not you that has to give birth. It's not you who has to carry the child for 9 months. Your arguments are becoming desperate grasps at a failing point, you're still trying to put murder and having children in the same box? They couldn't be more different.
At the time of an abortion they are just a bunch of cells, they have no feeling, no memory, nothing. Of course the same doesn't count past a certain point in pregnancy or once the child is born. You need to do some more research before you try to argue points like this, or to try and say that carrying a child is not dangerous.
The consequence of their actions is facing the fact that they have to deal with it in an adult way, which for some people is aborting. Choosing to do that is no less adult than choosing to have the child. I defended the way you were blaming women entirely, not saying it is entirely the mans fault, infact I'm fairly sure I said the man is equally to blame.

EDIT:
A woman should face the consequences for her actions.

And you tried to blame women before I even spoke..

[BuryYourFlame]

Natalie has already stated a lot of what I wish to say to people, but there are a lot of gems that I just had to reply to by myself.

Yes a fetus is alive. There is brain activity and the cells are alive. Therefore it is alive.
No. As already stated in the thread consciousness doesn't come in until the late second to third trimester.


Its is the end of a life, and that life never gets to see the day. I dont think you understand its not that simple of an ordeal.
No, for the reason outlined above, there is no conscious life.
Also, I don't think you understand that pregnancy is 'not that simple of an ordeal; as I will show later.


Why cant the baby have a chance at all? Even if by something traumatic shouldnt they atleast live? And im mainly talking about a women that gets pregnant by accident and tries to have an abortion. Its just wrong. By rape.... i would still say atleast give birth, because it still isnt right to take an innocent life. Kill the rapist if you want, they are the scum of the earth anyway. Just put the baby up for adoption if you dont want him/her.
No. The fetus is welcome to have a chance, if the mother agrees to be a host to the development.
This is one of first places where you have shown your complete lack of understanding and sympathy. There is no chance that you can get raped and conceive a baby. I'm not even saying I would understand how it feels to get pregnant from such an event but it is certainly infinitely more traumatic than you are making it out to be.

Why do murderers get charged with double homocide when they kill pregnant women?
They get charged with the double homicide because the mother had given permission for the fetus to use her body. Even if they were on the way to the abortion clinic, that does not give someone else the right to stop the pregnancy, and should be treated as a violation of the law until the mother has had the operation.

It's not only the mothers choice either, Im tired of seeing "mothers decesion", if the father isnt a rapist or a dead-beat, he should also have a say so too.
No. The mother is still the one who has to carry the fetus for that whole time. The mother is still the one who has to live with the emotional consequences of having the abortion.
In the case of accidental pregnancy, yes, both could and should have been more careful with contraceptives, but you still cannot force someone to carry a fetus for nine months as you cannot force someone to undergo psychological trauma because you didn't use protection.

Oh so if you had a kid and didnt want them after a few months youd just kill them? Thats the least you could do for the kid is to let them live.
No. This is the part where I have no more respect for you and your lack of logic at all.
Lets review something:

I am holding a one year old baby in one hand and a petri dish with a fertilised egg that has all capabilities of being put in to a womb and formed in to a baby. Oops, now I'm holding both over the edge of a skyscraper. If you don't choose one of them to drop to the ground below, I will nuke America.
A wild guess would say you would choose to keep the baby safe. I wonder why that is. It is because you acknowledge there is a difference.

A 'few months' old child is not the same as a young fetus/fertilised egg.

And religion doesnt have much to do with it other than in most its a sin to kill. And people like you do that to get people to agree with you. Go figure.
People like who? What are you talking about?

Ok but im asking does that make it alright? Why not give birth and then put them up for adoption?
Because there is still signifigant trauma, mental and physical that is intrinsic to pregnancy.

If you make a mistake it shouldnt be as easy as wiping a chalkboard, there should be consequences.
No. Yet another place where you display your complete lack of understanding towards the emotional trauma involved in abortions. I dare you (not actually, because I believe you might just do this) to go up to a woman who has had an abortion and say it was just like wiping chalk of the board. I hope the very least they do is slap you.


If a women needs one for medical purposes such as they both would die, then yeah im not apposed.
Congratulations, first bit of reason we've seen from you this whole thread.

But if they have one just because they made a mistake is just cowardly and sickening to me that they have no values.
~Refer to the other parts where I have stated how sickening you are to me and how little you understand and your inability to sympathise.


So if im in a tough situation with money, can i go kill my tax collector, insurance agent, and anyone else that needs money from me just because im in a "Tough Situation"?
We've already been through this, but I'll spell it out again for you.
There is an insane amount of difference between a bunch of cells and a human being. A bunch of cells has no consciousness, these people have emotions and pain receptors etc.


The mother shouldnt be able to decide either because ITS NOT HER LIFE ENDING.
No. There is no conscious life ending at all.

I cant stress that enough, and when i make an argument on here, no one can give me direct answers. Only skating around it, or what i call a "politician answer".
Well, looks like your prayers have been/are about to be answered :)

I want to ask everyone on here a few questions
Okay...

Is it right, and why is it?
Is it a mothers right and why?
There a millions of lives extinguished because of abortions, is that right?
What makes it a "human right"?
If a couple makes a mistake, why shouldnt they own up to it?
What would you have thought if your parents wanted to have one when you were going to be born?
If it were your kid, why would you?
Would it be morally right for you to do it? And why?
And does it make it right, just because the fetus cant feel anything?
[1]Is it right to have an abortion? It's not right or wrong. It's entirely subjective. Saying it's right would imply it is good 100% of the time, which obviously it is not, we still need new people.
[2]Yes, who else should have that right? It is the right of the mother because they are the ones that have to carry the fetus.
[3]Before I answer this I wish to let you know I am not saying this is akin to making a mistake and getting pregnant, I am simply using it as an example.
If I make a mistake in a painting, I start again. It's still a mistake, but there is nothing to 'own up to', it is my own work and I can decide if I want to display the mistake or do a new painting. I can do this all without going to the police or going before a judge and saying "I made a mistake".
They are completely different systems. This is the only way in which the example is like pregnancy, they are completely different systems to what you are suggesting. Why should they 'own up to it' when removing the few cells there are is often be easier than carrying the fetus to term, giving birth and potentially even raising the baby?
[4] I have no opinion, sometimes it is easier for couples.
[5] I've already commented on the issue of it being right or not.
[6] If it doesn't feel anything what consequence is there? The only consequence is to the mother.

If anyone tries to skate by these with politician answers or says its alright for all the wrong reasons then that just shows a lack of empathy in this generation.
As far as I know, I haven't given you any non-answers. Happy days.

Ok then by that logic, people are still going to do drugs, be pedophiles, and steal so we should make it right and acceptable so that way its alright. You took the politician answer and didnt answer my questions above. Apparently know one can answer them...
I just answered your questions. It's usually good do wait a while so people [/b]can answer your questions before assuming they can't.
With the drugs issue, people have thought the same thing. That is why, in some areas, there are Supervised Injections Sites. Medical centers that offer a safer method of injection than on the streets and offer extensive rehabilitation services. While these centers are legal and I support them, the substances still should remain illegal. The main difference between drugs and abortions is simply the damage to the individual. There are not many drugs that I am against but the ones that I am against cause damage to the individual and often a lot of damage to those around them. Abortions are different to this as they can be a personal matter with next to no physical repercussions.

Pedophiles.
Sex between someone who does know what they are doing, the pedophile, and someone who is not old enough to consciously make that decision, the victim, is wrong. Abortion potentially only affect one person and I have already been through how it is not taking a life or doing wrong to someone so there is no reason it should be illegal.

Stealing.
Stealing is still causing ill-effects on someone else through loss of property.

It comes down to who it effects. All the outrageous suggestions you had impact negatively on other [b]people.

A woman should face the consequences for her actions.
The psychological implications of abortion are not consequence enough? I've already commented on your lack of understanding.
Nice go blaming the woman though.

As far as rape.... i guess it would be "ok" in that concern. Just because of medical reasons. And if its not alright, then why is it legal?
Because most people acknowledge that it is 'alright'.

How good is the childs life going to be if they have none? Look at Steven Hawking. Look at what his disease has done to him. But he lives life, and that is reward enough.
Two people you have given an example of, out of the many, many living in pain.
Things I am not saying here:

People who have disabilities can't have meaningful lives
Fetuses which are found to have disabilities should automatically be terminated
There are not amazing people who have disabilities (as per point 1)


Well this is how it should be. If they want sex dont get the genitals together. There are other ways of have that kind of fun.
Who are you to say how it 'should' be? At the moment I have deconstructed everything you have said, so you're standing on the logical argument of 'I just don't like it'.
How about people should be free to do what they wish between consenting adults? Obviously contraception would be the best way, but you cannot make people pay for the rest of their lives for the contraception failing etc.

For one you blamed men in the first place, im just defending.
There was one circumstance in which case Natalie mentioned her father, there was absolutely nothing at all generalising or 'blaming' men until your quote "A woman should face consequences for her actions."
The condom is by far the easiest means of contraception, the pill can have side effects, diaphragms are not as effective, and we are still not sure on the lasting effects of the rod implant.
Who is the one that wears the condom? The male. There should be communication between the two about contraception involved and if a baby is wanted. It is both the partner's responsibility to make sure contraception is in place, however, unfortunately the woman will bare the negative effects of that responsibility, making abortion her right.
Can I just also point out you said "Sometimes the woman forgets to take the "pill" and its her fault." Immediately followed by "Im not laying the blame on anyone...", I don't have any comments on it, it's just funny.


Ok so youd have an abortion because you dont want stretch marks? Sex less fun? Well too bad in my book. Be a parent, and own up to it. And its not like having an apartment. But the same principles are there. Problem(Child=Rent), Solution(Abortion, Kill Landlord).
Again, you trivialise abortion over something like stretch marks? You better damn hope you were not talking to Natalie specifically when you said that. Even if someone did not want a child for that reason, it is not ending a life.
Consenting adults should be able to do as they wish, including having sex, as no-one in harmed. Even in the case of abortion, your major argument is still missing, a life is not being taken.

No but you said its the mother will. They are both idiots and its both of there fault. They both have a path to deal with.
I've already stated how different the systems are, there is nothing to 'own up to'.

Weigh it out. Dead kid or alive kid. And its all the more reason they should keep the kid. Im not saying foster homes are the best choice, but they are the only other good option.
Orphanages and the foster care system is under enormous strain already. If they do not wish to put even more strain in the system, abortion is an acceptable option.

How is it right for anyone? A mother lives with the guilt forever, and the child never gets a life? And other people ive talked to have no empathy and that is what it feels like to them. And maybe more too.
Abortion, can have lasting psychological effects, that is true. Often this is an entirely better option than going through the pregnancy and giving birth given that pregnancy can also cause physical and psychological trauma.

Its selfish. If i got a girl pregnant i would stop everything, work part time, and finish school so i can give the kid a better life. And they arnt just a bunch of cells. Everything organic is made of cells. So can i kill someone and say "They were just a bunch of cells"? And when people do it because of financially or mentally i have two answers.
1. Get a job and work your ass off. You both decided to have sex and have the kid, you both own up and get a job.
2. You have to grow up sometime. And then would be a perfect time.
No, it's not selfish. The vast majority of the time it is done so the resulting child would not have a sub-par life.
If you're aborted, you wouldn't even know about it, so you saying 'at least they have a life' has no grounds. You can't compare the two when you wouldn't even be aware of the first.
I have already talked about the human consciousness and why this is different to stopping the replications of a group of non-specified cells.

Ok tell me what ending a life out of fear is? It sounds like a cowardly act to me. And people act like giving birth is as dangerous as war. A doctor can most of the time tell you if its dangerous or not. Some women take the chance and that is heroic. And id like to ask what guys think of this. If there Gf wanted to get an abortion what would they think? Because you both treat it as though its just yours. Yes it is your body but the kid is both of yours. It is made of both of you. So shouldnt the man have a say?

- Not ending a life
- Not cowardly

- It is still dangerous, this is enough. Even if it wasn't, you can't force someone to do something.

- It is a nice notion that a woman will take in to account what the guy wants in terms of abortion or not, but is not necessary by any means. She is still the one that has to carry the fetus and give birth. My girlfriend doesn't want an abortion if she got pregnant, and that idea scares the shit out of me, but it is her right.

Finally, the idea of bodily autonomy, something which hasn't even come up in this debate yet.
Bodily autonomy is the idea that, as a conscious person, you have the intrinsic right to control what happens to your body. In cases where there is a fully formed person but no consciousness such as an adult in a coma, it becomes very hard and the medical viability or living and the person's wishes before must be taken in to account but that's beside the point. The idea is that no matter want, nobody (and I use that term because a fully formed fetus a few second away from birth would still be a body) is allowed to do anything to your body unless you give them permission. That means even if you were in a car accident with someone else and the only way they could live was to take one of your kidney's etc., they would not be able to unless you gave permission.

All around most people like the idea of being in control of their bodies, it's just when it comes to abortion people start seeing it differently.

A fetus while it is inside the body is essentially a parasite. It get nutrients from its host often at the detriment of the host. For this reason, it is the right of that person to use their bodily autonomy to say they do not want to carry around an extra body.

Have a good day.

[EddietheZombie]

So let me get this straight right, you think everyone should either be abstinent or be forced to give birth against their will? Do you realise how insane that sounds? That was right last century, times have moved on and things are a lot different now, women are allowed choices, they are allowed to speak and stand up for themselves.
It's very easy for you being male to stand there and say I'd support a kid, but it's not you that has to give birth. It's not you who has to carry the child for 9 months. Your arguments are becoming desperate grasps at a failing point, you're still trying to put murder and having children in the same box? They couldn't be more different.
At the time of an abortion they are just a bunch of cells, they have no feeling, no memory, nothing. Of course the same doesn't count past a certain point in pregnancy or once the child is born. You need to do some more research before you try to argue points like this, or to try and say that carrying a child is not dangerous.
The consequence of their actions is facing the fact that they have to deal with it in an adult way, which for some people is aborting. Choosing to do that is no less adult than choosing to have the child. I defended the way you were blaming women entirely, not saying it is entirely the mans fault, infact I'm fairly sure I said the man is equally to blame.
For one im not saying everyone should be forced. Only if you get pregnant, then you should take responsibility. And like i said its murder, and thats why i compare it to murder. If its just a bunch of cells then how does it grow? cells cant grow on their own they need the ability to which is everything alive. Saying that it couldnt feel anything is an excuse. Your taking everything im saying wrong. I compare it to murder to show what its actually like. If you werent mature enough for a kid then you shouldnt be mature enough for sex. Plain and simple. If you want that kind of fun, then you should do it in other ways. If your dumb and a couple gets pregnant then you should own up to it. If you break a law you own up to the consequences, right? If you get pregnant then you should own up to it. If your "Not Ready" or "Want a life" then you both should have thought of that BEFORE you had sex. Its both of your fault. Once your pregnant it is now your job to be a mom. And the dad should be there too. Being not ready is no excuse at all. Own up to it, get a job, and do your damn job as a parent. Everyone acts as though im forcing every women to get pregnant and forcing them to take care of the kid. I am not doing that at all. All im saying is, if a couple gets pregnant then you both should own up to it and take care of the kid. And it is alive. Anything with cells is alive. If your gonna regret it the rest of your life then why do it in the first place? And having abortions because of disabled kids is exactly what Hitler and Ancient Sparta did. Hitler wanted a pure race with no weakness. If you were crippled, mentally retarded, or had any other disability then your were killed. In Sparta they would leave you on a mountain to die. Are you no better than them? Most people that have abortions are teens for one. They are scared their parents will find out and THAT is cowardly. And what about the boyfriend? What if they want the kid? Are you going to hurt the one you love and the one that is made from both of you out of fear? Most of the most influential have been called mentally retarded. Einstein was called mentally retarded. What if he had been aborted? The we wouldnt have half the stuff we have today. And dont say "But they didnt have it back then" because they did as far back as Ancient Greece. Even they knew it was wrong because any women found trying to have one was jailed. Im not saying thats what we should do, but it shouldnt be done at all. If they try illegally then thats their problem and they shouldnt be a dumbass to try. Go ahead and call me heartless and what ever else. If ignorance is bliss then you must feel really good right now. Im done with this thread and moving on. Dont bother quoting me or replying to me because i wont answer.



Now have a nice day.

[Stronk Serb]

For one im not saying everyone should be forced. Only if you get pregnant, then you should take responsibility. And like i said its murder, and thats why i compare it to murder. If its just a bunch of cells then how does it grow? cells cant grow on their own they need the ability to which is everything alive. Saying that it couldnt feel anything is an excuse. Your taking everything im saying wrong. I compare it to murder to show what its actually like. If you werent mature enough for a kid then you shouldnt be mature enough for sex. Plain and simple. If you want that kind of fun, then you should do it in other ways. If your dumb and a couple gets pregnant then you should own up to it. If you break a law you own up to the consequences, right? If you get pregnant then you should own up to it. If your "Not Ready" or "Want a life" then you both should have thought of that BEFORE you had sex. Its both of your fault. Once your pregnant it is now your job to be a mom. And the dad should be there too. Being not ready is no excuse at all. Own up to it, get a job, and do your damn job as a parent. Everyone acts as though im forcing every women to get pregnant and forcing them to take care of the kid. I am not doing that at all. All im saying is, if a couple gets pregnant then you both should own up to it and take care of the kid. And it is alive. Anything with cells is alive. If your gonna regret it the rest of your life then why do it in the first place? And having abortions because of disabled kids is exactly what Hitler and Ancient Sparta did. Hitler wanted a pure race with no weakness. If you were crippled, mentally retarded, or had any other disability then your were killed. In Sparta they would leave you on a mountain to die. Are you no better than them? Most people that have abortions are teens for one. They are scared their parents will find out and THAT is cowardly. And what about the boyfriend? What if they want the kid? Are you going to hurt the one you love and the one that is made from both of you out of fear? Most of the most influential have been called mentally retarded. Einstein was called mentally retarded. What if he had been aborted? The we wouldnt have half the stuff we have today. And dont say "But they didnt have it back then" because they did as far back as Ancient Greece. Even they knew it was wrong because any women found trying to have one was jailed. Im not saying thats what we should do, but it shouldnt be done at all. If they try illegally then thats their problem and they shouldnt be a dumbass to try. Go ahead and call me heartless and what ever else. If ignorance is bliss then you must feel really good right now. Im done with this thread and moving on. Dont bother quoting me or replying to me because i wont answer.

And before you call me a dumb ass let me give you a list of my achievements:
Graduating High School at 16
Gifted and Talented
Career is going to be Ballistic Analyst or Detective
Going to take the test to become a member of Mensa

Now have a nice day.

If you make abortions illegal, women will just do it illegally, in very bad conditions like in alleys, vans, most if not all of those places are not up to standards of a medical institution. If a girl has been raped and got pregnant, she has to keep the child? She cannot support it and another mouth to feed in her parents' household is too much. Put it up for adoption? You see that is pain for the child and the parent. The child will probably wish to find it's blood parents and the mother will feel sad for her child because of the mother's instincts which kick in. What if the condom snapped or the pills didn't work? Sex is not used for reproductive purposes anymore, now it's both recreational and reproductive, if found out soon enough, the abortion does not have to make the woman infertile. Many women feel horrible after an abortion as if they really murdered someone, similar to the mother's instincts when they lose their child.

[EddietheZombie]

If you make abortions illegal, women will just do it illegally, in very bad conditions like in alleys, vans, most if not all of those places are not up to standards of a medical institution. If a girl has been raped and got pregnant, she has to keep the child? She cannot support it and another mouth to feed in her parents' household is too much. Put it up for adoption? You see that is pain for the child and the parent. The child will probably wish to find it's blood parents and the mother will feel sad for her child because of the mother's instincts which kick in. What if the condom snapped or the pills didn't work? Sex is not used for reproductive purposes anymore, now it's both recreational and reproductive, if found out soon enough, the abortion does not have to make the woman infertile. Many women feel horrible after an abortion as if they really murdered someone, similar to the mother's instincts when they lose their child.

People still do drugs even though they are illegal and it hurts or kills people too. So do we make drugs legal? Making something bad legal doesnt make it right. Look at my other posts in the thread and i answer many of those questions such as rape, medical problems, ect.
As i said im done with this thread.

[CosmicNoodle]

Touchy subject indeed, hmm...i do think that if the birth would put the life of the mother at risk of death (more risk than is safe) then there is no option but to do it. But if there will be no high risk involved then then child should NEVER be killed, that's what it is in my opinion, murder

[britishboy]

I wouldnt have it myself but just like the gays getting married, let them do what they want!

[Jess]

Touchy subject indeed, hmm...i do think that if the birth would put the life of the mother at risk of death (more risk than is safe) then there is no option but to do it. But if there will be no high risk involved then then child should NEVER be killed, that's what it is in my opinion, murder

It's not a child (yet), it's a fetus which is NOT a person, and therefore it's NOT murder.

But if you think it's murder, I guess you think a women who have had an abortion should be imprisoned for life? Because that's what murderers get.

[CosmicNoodle]

It's not a child (yet), it's a fetus which is NOT a person, and therefore it's NOT murder.

But if you think it's murder, I guess you think a women who have had an abortion should be imprisoned for life? Because that's what murderers get.

You sir are being foolish, Imagen, an abortion means that you would simply wipe out a person from existence, a person who would have a life, things they like, hate, people they love, children. All that will NEVER exist, and no, women who have abortions should not be sent to jail, they did it for there own reasons and i have my reasons. What if it was you, if you have NEVER existed because your mother didn't want the responsibility of you, if she was to lazy for a child, what then, i am fairly sure your views would change fairly fast then! And i don't think it was necessary to have a go at me for posting my views on it after i was ASKED to by the person who started the thread
-edited. -Emerald Dream

[Jess]

If it was me I wouldn't care because I wouldn't exist. Though my views would not change. I will always be pro-choice because I will always believe it's the woman's decision and that other people shouldn't make the decision for her. I will not hate my mom for the choice she made, as it was her decision and hers alone.

Again, a fetus is NOT a person:
http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=18797


-edited. -Emerald Dream


http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=29856

[BuryYourFlame]

For one im not saying everyone should be forced. Only if you get pregnant, then you should take responsibility.
You have ignored everything I post about. If you're going to debate about something, at least have the decency to read and reply to what the other person says.

And like i said its murder, and thats why i compare it to murder.
And like I said, which you have conveniently ignored, is that it is not murder and I have given justification to my reasoning, you have not. In a debate you need to state the logical progression of an idea, which you have failed to do.

If its just a bunch of cells then how does it grow? cells cant grow on their own they need the ability to which is everything alive. Saying that it couldnt feel anything is an excuse.
This is by far the most stupid statement I have seen in this thread.
You obviously have no concept of biology...at all.
A 'bunch of cells' will grow in the right conditions. This includes ant cells, bacteria, plant cells and so on. Have you ever used soap? Then by your own logic you are a murderer. 'The ability to' grow is not something which I expect you to understand, and I don't mean that in a condescending way though it may come across as such. I'm doing a bachelor of medical science and I have nearly finished my second year. There's a lot of biology in there and basically cellular growth and the mechanisms behind it is a complicated process. This is of no importance however as I have already shown you that just because a cell can divide doesn't make it morally abhorrent to kill it.

Your taking everything im saying wrong. I compare it to murder to show what its actually like.
Please explain, I'm happy to listen.

If you werent mature enough for a kid then you shouldnt be mature enough for sex. Plain and simple. If you want that kind of fun, then you should do it in other ways.
As you have left out your reasoning for this I have to fill in the blanks myself, and then you blame people for taking what you say the wrong way?
What I have filled in however is this:

Having a child requires responsibility (agreed)
Having sex can potentially produce a child (agreed)
Abortion is not an option, so pregnancy will result in having a child (disagree)
Therefore, do not have sex until you can manage a child.

The reason why I disagree with you on that is because of what I have already said in regards to stopping the replication of a group of unspecified cells.

If your dumb and a couple gets pregnant then you should own up to it.
Getting pregnant =/= you are dumb
Although I'm hoping this isn't what you were implying as you said "dumb and" not "dumb so"
Other than that I have already shown how the idea of "owning up to it" is a flawed idea; an argument to which you failed to respond to.

From now on, I will leave in parts of the quotation that I have already responded to, but I will not respond again. After basically wasting my time in the last post which you ignored, I will not be wasting my time to reiterate points I have already made.

If you break a law you own up to the consequences, right? If you get pregnant then you should own up to it. If your "Not Ready" or "Want a life" then you both should have thought of that BEFORE you had sex. Its both of your fault. Once your pregnant it is now your job to be a mom. And the dad should be there too. Being not ready is no excuse at all. Own up to it, get a job, and do your damn job as a parent.


Everyone acts as though im forcing every women to get pregnant and forcing them to take care of the kid. I am not doing that at all. All im saying is, if a couple gets pregnant then you both should own up to it and take care of the kid.

And it is alive. Anything with cells is alive.
Alive does not equal morally significant.

If your gonna regret it the rest of your life then why do it in the first place?
Obviously you've never felt how good sex is.

And having abortions because of disabled kids is exactly what Hitler and Ancient Sparta did. Hitler wanted a pure race with no weakness. If you were crippled, mentally retarded, or had any other disability then your were killed. In Sparta they would leave you on a mountain to die. Are you no better than them?
This, again, is false logic.
The vast majority of abortions due to disability are done because the fetus has a viable life span of a couple of years at best.
What kind of a person are you if you wish for them to just give birth and then have the baby die slowly over a couple of years?


Most people that have abortions are teens for one.
Well, I just did your research for you because honestly, I kind of expected this statement to be correct. In fact, it is dead wrong.
Teenage abortions only account for 18% out of all abortions performed. The vast majority of abortions are in the 20-29 range with 58% and the next highest is the 30s age group with 22%.

Data from Jones RK, Finer LB and Singh S, Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients, 2008, New York: Guttmacher Institute, 2010.

They are scared their parents will find out and THAT is cowardly. And what about the boyfriend? What if they want the kid? Are you going to hurt the one you love and the one that is made from both of you out of fear? Most of the most influential have been called mentally retarded. Einstein was called mentally retarded. What if he had been aborted? The we wouldnt have half the stuff we have today. And dont say "But they didnt have it back then" because they did as far back as Ancient Greece. Even they knew it was wrong because any women found trying to have one was jailed. Im not saying thats what we should do, but it shouldnt be done at all. If they try illegally then thats their problem and they shouldnt be a dumbass to try. Go ahead and call me heartless and what ever else. If ignorance is bliss then you must feel really good right now. Im done with this thread and moving on. Dont bother quoting me or replying to me because i wont answer.
No, I'm not going to call you heartless, I don't include name calling in debates. Everything I have written so far (I hope, I can get carried away sometimes) has been attacking purely your arguments.

And before you call me a dumb ass let me give you a list of my achievements:
Graduating High School at 16
Gifted and Talented
Career is going to be Ballistic Analyst or Detective
Going to take the test to become a member of Mensa

Now have a nice day.

And this is how I know you will return to the thread.
The inclusion of this is egotistical and you're trying to prove something that I never questioned.
All that stuff is nice but high school is so, so, so simplified. I'm not saying it's not work at the time, but do a university degree in molecular biology or biochemistry and you will just how simplified schools make things. Besides, your grammar and spelling throughout everything you have written, not just one time, tells me that you have definitely not graduated with the accolades you claim, I would believe you are 16 though.

Feel free to actually respond to my arguments instead of just repeating your own mantras.

You sir are being foolish, Imagen, an abortion means that you would simply wipe out a person from existence, a person who would have a life, things they like, hate, people they love, children. All that will NEVER exist, and no, women who have abortions should not be sent to jail, they did it for there own reasons and i have my reasons. What if it was you, if you have NEVER existed because your mother didn't want the responsibility of you, if she was to lazy for a child, what then, i am fairly sure your views would change fairly fast then! And i don't think it was necessary to have a go at me for posting my views on it after i was ASKED to by the person who started the thread
I can see where you are coming from, but because they would never have existed it would make absolutely no difference, we wouldn't know any different.
You are not wiping out a person, you are stopping the production of a few cells.
I honestly wouldn't mind if my mother had an abortion, because I would not even know.

[Gigablue]

What if it was you, if you have NEVER existed because your mother didn't want the responsibility of you, if she was to lazy for a child, what then, i am fairly sure your views would change fairly fast then!

If I had been aborted, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't exist, and existence is a prerequisite for caring. I can say this with confidence because for 13.7 billion years, I didn't exist. The nonexistent don't care about their nonexistence.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that abortion doesn't affect the foetus. It doesn't feel pain, and since it isn't conscious, it has no desire to continue to live. Therefore, it isn't hurt in any way when you stop it from becoming a human being.

[EddietheZombie]

You have ignored everything I post about. If you're going to debate about something, at least have the decency to read and reply to what the other person says.

I ignored what you said because i was answering everyone in my post.
And like I said, which you have conveniently ignored, is that it is not murder and I have given justification to my reasoning, you have not. In a debate you need to state the logical progression of an idea, which you have failed to do.
If someone is in a vegetable state are they alive? That is my reasoning. Just because they feel no pain or dont have a consciousness yet doesnt mean they arent alive.
This is by far the most stupid statement I have seen in this thread.
You obviously have no concept of biology...at all.
A 'bunch of cells' will grow in the right conditions. This includes ant cells, bacteria, plant cells and so on. Have you ever used soap? Then by your own logic you are a murderer. 'The ability to' grow is not something which I expect you to understand, and I don't mean that in a condescending way though it may come across as such. I'm doing a bachelor of medical science and I have nearly finished my second year. There's a lot of biology in there and basically cellular growth and the mechanisms behind it is a complicated process. This is of no importance however as I have already shown you that just because a cell can divide doesn't make it morally abhorrent to kill it.
Sorry if biology is my weak spot. I know some but i haven't cared for it because the job i want doesnt require it. Again if someone is in a vegetable state and doesnt know the difference between life and death, does it make is right to kill them? After all they are just a bunch of cells with no purpose.
Getting pregnant =/= you are dumb
Although I'm hoping this isn't what you were implying as you said "dumb and" not "dumb so"
Other than that I have already shown how the idea of "owning up to it" is a flawed idea; an argument to which you failed to respond to.

From now on, I will leave in parts of the quotation that I have already responded to, but I will not respond again. After basically wasting my time in the last post which you ignored, I will not be wasting my time to reiterate points I have already made.

Sorry if it seems worded wrong. My internet sucks and i have to stay up late to get a good connection. But what i mean is, if you have unprotected sex just because of the "heat of the moment" then yes you are mentally weak. Because you have no control. Being mentally weak can have nothing to do with knowledge, but more of your problem solving skills. If you get out of control because of hormones then you are more mentally weak than someone who can control it.
Alive does not equal morally significant.
There is where i say that this generation is morally lacking. In Ancient Rome (I may have gotten the location wrong like is said ive been up all night) If a woman was caught trying to have an illegal abortion which succeeded in the fetuses death then she was jailed or executed. Even they knew it was morally wrong and they made people fight to the death and fed people to lions.
Obviously you've never felt how good sex is.
You obviously didnt read my post, as i was referring to a woman having an abortion and regretting it the rest of her life.
This, again, is false logic.
The vast majority of abortions due to disability are done because the fetus has a viable life span of a couple of years at best.
What kind of a person are you if you wish for them to just give birth and then have the baby die slowly over a couple of years?
Plenty of people are told that and live well into old age. Its the doctors guess, they arnt always right. My moms friend was only given a few months to live when she was born and shes 47(i think) right now. Why take the risk of ending a life short?
Well, I just did your research for you because honestly, I kind of expected this statement to be correct. In fact, it is dead wrong.
Teenage abortions only account for 18% out of all abortions performed. The vast majority of abortions are in the 20-29 range with 58% and the next highest is the 30s age group with 22%.
Hmm i did not know that. I just checked another source and its similar. But it also shows that 1.21 million abortions happen every year. That is way to many in my opinion. Which is why i still support my argument that only for medical reasons, which include rape, should someone have an abortion. My source if you want to read it
http://www.abortionno.org/abortion-facts/
No, I'm not going to call you heartless, I don't include name calling in debates. Everything I have written so far (I hope, I can get carried away sometimes) has been attacking purely your arguments.
And thank you for that. But i said please no one quote me on here any more. Im sorry if i ignored you, your answers were similar to others i have already answered. After this i wont be replying to anymore.
And this is how I know you will return to the thread.
The inclusion of this is egotistical and you're trying to prove something that I never questioned.
All that stuff is nice but high school is so, so, so simplified. I'm not saying it's not work at the time, but do a university degree in molecular biology or biochemistry and you will just how simplified schools make things. Besides, your grammar and spelling throughout everything you have written, not just one time, tells me that you have definitely not graduated with the accolades you claim, I would believe you are 16 though.

Feel free to actually respond to my arguments instead of just repeating your own mantras.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

If it was me I wouldn't care because I wouldn't exist. Though my views would not change. I will always be pro-choice because I will always believe it's the woman's decision and that other people shouldn't make the decision for her. I will not hate my mom for the choice she made, as it was her decision and hers alone.

Again, a fetus is NOT a person:
image (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=18797)

My only debate with this is that a fetus is actually living late into pregnancy. Like 29 weeks I think.
But for earlier abortions your statements can easily apply.

[BebeFleur.]

I am strongly pro-choice. It's a woman's body, it's her choice. People can't just dictate what to do with her body. If a woman wants an abortion and it's safe for body, then let her get a abortion.

And please don't keep saying "well, it's her fault she had unprotected sex" because that's not entirely true'. Rape, accidental pregnancy due to contraceptive failures, etc. are not "her fault".

And those that keep saying "oh it's bad" and "that's mean"...it's not. It's not a physical person yet. Think about it, how many memories do you have from being a fetus? Exactly.

[SaxyHaloBeast]

I am strongly pro-choice. It's a woman's body, it's her choice. People can't just dictate what to do with her body. If a woman wants an abortion and it's safe for body, then let her get a abortion.

And please don't keep saying "well, it's her fault she had unprotected sex" because that's not entirely true'. Rape, accidental pregnancy due to contraceptive failures, etc. are not "her fault".

And those that keep saying "oh it's bad" and "that's mean"...it's not. It's not a physical person yet. Think about it, how many memories do you have from being a fetus? Exactly.

Yes it is a woman's body, and what does a woman's body do? It carries human beings during the pre-birth phase of life. People don't have to dictate what a woman does with her body. Nature and basic human anatomy has decided for her that women carry children, but I guess you still have the choice.

I don't care how the woman becomes pregnant (naturally, rape, etc.), the moment she becomes pregnant she now has the obligation and duty to that small, fragile, and dependent life form to make sure it is brought to life in the best way possible. Every life is of great worth and deserves a chance. The right to live comes before the right to choose.

I don't have any memories from when I was born to about age 4 or 5. Was I any less a human then? If my parents didn't want me would it have been OK for them to just throw me out or kill me? A fetus is in fact a physical human life form. Who are you or who is anyone to decide that a fetus shouldn't get the chance it deserves to grow and be given life?

[Jess]

Yes it is a woman's body, and what does a woman's body do? It carries human beings during the pre-birth phase of life. People don't have to dictate what a woman does with her body. Nature and basic human anatomy has decided for her that women carry children, but I guess you still have the choice.

I don't care how the woman becomes pregnant (naturally, rape, etc.), the moment she becomes pregnant she now has the obligation and duty to that small, fragile, and dependent life form to make sure it is brought to life in the best way possible. Every life is of great worth and deserves a chance. The right to live comes before the right to choose.

I don't have any memories from when I was born to about age 4 or 5. Was I any less a human then? If my parents didn't want me would it have been OK for them to just throw me out or kill me? A fetus is in fact a physical human life form. Who are you or who is anyone to decide that a fetus shouldn't get the chance it deserves to grow and be given life?

Who are YOU to deny a woman an abortion because YOU think it's wrong? Why should you also deny a woman an abortion who got pregnant from rape? She should not have to go through 9 months of pain to give birth to something that was the result of a very traumatic experience. I certainly would not want to give birth if I got pregnant by rape. What if the woman's only a young girl? What if the woman's life is at risk?

From when you were born to when you were 4 to 5 you were obviously a human being. A fetus is not a person and in the beginning is not a human yet

Abortion should be an entirely a choice and ENTIRELY up to the woman and not decided by someone anti-choice

[SaxyHaloBeast]

Who are YOU to deny a woman an abortion because YOU think it's wrong? Why should you also deny a woman an abortion who got pregnant from rape? She should not have to go through 9 months of pain to give birth to something that was the result of a very traumatic experience. I certainly would not want to give birth if I got pregnant by rape. What if the woman's only a young girl? What if the woman's life is at risk?

From when you were born to when you were 4 to 5 you were obviously a human being. A fetus is not a person and in the beginning is not a human yet

Abortion should be an entirely a choice and ENTIRELY up to the woman and not decided by someone anti-choice

Did I say I wanted to deny anyone an abortion? I said that it was still a choice. Pregnancy by rape is a touchy subject. If the pregnancy puts the mother at risk then no she should not be held accountable to deliver it, but if the baby can be born I think it should at least get the chance.

You said that because we didn't have memories as a fetus that we weren't human yet. There is a lot of things I forget but that doesn't mean I wasn't human when those memories happened. And by the way, fetuses do develop brains which carry their memories. Our memories from pregnancy are still in our brains somewhere. A fetus is a human-to-be and it needs its mother to bring it to humanity and life.

Abortion should also not be decided by someone pro-choice. Too much bias. I am not anti-ability to choose. I am anti-actually getting an abortion. If there can be life, let it live.

[Azunite]

Let me put this plainly (Tumblr quoth)

Imagine there is a fire in a building and you have a chance to save one of the two following: Either a baby, or a fetus in a tube.

If you are really against abortion, then the only choice would be to flip a coin, otherwise it would be impossible for you to choose whom to save.

But we all know that you would save baby instead of a fetus.

[BebeFleur.]

Did I say I wanted to deny anyone an abortion? I said that it was still a choice. Pregnancy by rape is a touchy subject. If the pregnancy puts the mother at risk then no she should not be held accountable to deliver it, but if the baby can be born I think it should at least get the chance.

You said that because we didn't have memories as a fetus that we weren't human yet. There is a lot of things I forget but that doesn't mean I wasn't human when those memories happened. And by the way, fetuses do develop brains which carry their memories. Our memories from pregnancy are still in our brains somewhere. A fetus is a human-to-be and it needs its mother to bring it to humanity and life.

Abortion should also not be decided by someone pro-choice. Too much bias. I am not anti-ability to choose. I am anti-actually getting an abortion. If there can be life, let it live.

When a woman, and especially a young girl, is made pregnant against her will she has absolutely no obligation. Especially for a teen this can ruin her future. Children cost money to raise and care for and not everyone is ready for that responsibility. Would you rather a child be born into a poor living situation with irresponsible parent(s)? That's unfair to the child and the parents.

[dsi411]

It's murder. That's a life. Or the "potential" for a life. Either way, you're cutting a life short. I'm pro-life, but I also think that abortions should be legal, because women are always going to do it, and you might as well make sure that they don't hurt themselves, because at home methods are really dangerous .

I agree

[1_21Guns]

Let me put this plainly (Tumblr quoth)

Imagine there is a fire in a building and you have a chance to save one of the two following: Either a baby, or a fetus in a tube.

If you are really against abortion, then the only choice would be to flip a coin, otherwise it would be impossible for you to choose whom to save.

But we all know that you would save baby instead of a fetus.

I strongly agree with this.

I don't care how the woman becomes pregnant (naturally, rape, etc.), the moment she becomes pregnant she now has the obligation and duty to that small, fragile, and dependent life form to make sure it is brought to life in the best way possible. Every life is of great worth and deserves a chance. The right to live comes before the right to choose.

I don't think you realise how ridiculous that actually sounds? You don't care if a woman gets raped? Oh so she has to give birth to the baby because it's hard luck? She has to look it in the face for 9 months, relive the pain, then go through potentially dangerous and incredibly painful labour because someone raped her, but you don't care? Well then your opinion counts for a lot if you don't care about the woman who's been raped let alone the fetus. Yes, fetus, not baby, fetus. The woman has no obligation or duty to care for anything, she didn't choose to carry the reproductive organs to carry the child so why on earth should she have to carry it if she doesn't want to? Someone before has said that the fetus is essentially a parasite, feeding off the host (the womans) body, which is 100% true. The woman owes no duty to anyone because it is her body and her decision alone.

[Alexwellace]

I strongly agree with this.



I don't think you realise how ridiculous that actually sounds? You don't care if a woman gets raped? Oh so she has to give birth to the baby because it's hard luck? She has to look it in the face for 9 months, relive the pain, then go through potentially dangerous and incredibly painful labour because someone raped her, but you don't care? Well then your opinion counts for a lot if you don't care about the woman who's been raped let alone the fetus. Yes, fetus, not baby, fetus. The woman has no obligation or duty to care for anything, she didn't choose to carry the reproductive organs to carry the child so why on earth should she have to carry it if she doesn't want to? Someone before has said that the fetus is essentially a parasite, feeding off the host (the womans) body, which is 100% true. The woman owes no duty to anyone because it is her body and her decision alone.

I agree with this, Just because someone is born a women doesn't mean they are under any obligation to do anything, ever. They are women and have the capacity to carry babies, we all have an appendix and have the capacity to digest grass, do we have an obligation to do this? No, because what bodily organs you have should have no bearing on your life or choices, and to be frank, neither should any pro-life /religion either.

[BuryYourFlame]

I'm going to try and respond to your post individually so 1) it's harder for you to ignore what I say and 2) because I have time to do so. I will not be answering in full though, for some parts I will ask you to refer to my other posts which can be found here (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2489518&postcount=56) and here (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2492117&postcount=65). Before coming in to a debate especially in a forum you should see what other people have said and debate from there, it saves people having to do what I'm doing now and keep referring you to other posts.

Yes it is a woman's body, and what does a woman's body do? It carries human beings during the pre-birth phase of life. People don't have to dictate what a woman does with her body. Nature and basic human anatomy has decided for her that women carry children, but I guess you still have the choice.

How many women have you impregnated? You're a teenager aren't you? If we're going by completely naturalistic standards, you should have already impregnated at least 5, probably more, but I'm no expert. The point is, from a naturalistic sense, the male is meant to impregnate women from the time he starts producing sperm. I hope we can both agree we are beyond this stage of humanity, this is not the way the world works anymore.

I don't care how the woman becomes pregnant (naturally, rape, etc.), the moment she becomes pregnant she now has the obligation and duty to that small, fragile, and dependent life form to make sure it is brought to life in the best way possible. Every life is of great worth and deserves a chance. The right to live comes before the right to choose.

You don't care. It seems a lack of empathy is endemic to the pro-life advocates. I cannot begin to describe how sick it is that you wish someone who has already gone through the ordeal of rape to continue living with the offspring of the rapist and a daily reminder of what happened. Other than that, if you had done what you were meant to before posting you would have seen my argument that the life of unspecified cells in the uterus is of no significance, and the fetus doesn't even have a working brain (that thing that makes you feel) until early third trimester. Even at this stage the fetus would not be able to comprehend pain.
"The right to live comes before the right to choose." Why? I have given my argument of bodily autonomy at the end of my first post. Do you disagree with bodily autonomy?

I don't have any memories from when I was born to about age 4 or 5. Was I any less a human then? If my parents didn't want me would it have been OK for them to just throw me out or kill me? A fetus is in fact a physical human life form. Who are you or who is anyone to decide that a fetus shouldn't get the chance it deserves to grow and be given life?

No, you were still human at age 4 and 5, but (and this is again why you should read the whole thread) my argument is not about memories. The fetus cannot feel pain, it would not know of any consequence of being terminated. This topic is also covered in my other posts. What makes a human a human? Our DNA?
I don't make this decision for anyone, as the status pro-choice says. It is the mother who I want to make the choice and determine what is best for them. Who are they? They are the people who have to live with giving birth and the person who's life it will impact, as opposed to having no impact to the fetus.

[AidanMcCann]

It's not murder because it's not a child. It's not fully-grown.

It's up to the mother (and a bit of the father too).

You do know that a child in the womb can think and feel like a normal child right?
If not then please get educated before choosing a side on anymatter as important as this.
(aren't you glad your parents were pro/life and didn't kill you abd put you in a trash can because that is what abortion doctors do with the baby after it has been removed, they throw it in a waste bin.

[BuryYourFlame]

You do know that a child in the womb can think and feel like a normal child right?
If not then please get educated before choosing a side on anymatter as important as this.
(aren't you glad your parents were pro/life and didn't kill you abd put you in a trash can because that is what abortion doctors do with the baby after it has been removed, they throw it in a waste bin.

Read the damned thread, it's there for a reason. You come in here parading around things that I and others have already argued against and disbanded multiple times with absolutely no logical reasoning, and claim others ignorant; just like the person before you (who I am still waiting on a reply from).

In regards to your post, from the multiple other times that people have said this. No, the fetus cannot think and feel just like a 'normal child' because it is a fetus. Actual brain activity does not begin until after the third trimester.
Please get educated (such as a university degree which others, like me, are doing) before choosing a side on any matter as important as this.

Firstly, pro-choice is not 'pro-abortion'. Just because someone believes that someone else shouldn't have to endure months of pain, and in some cases pain on top of being raped, does not mean they think every single fetus should be aborted. So even if my mother was pro-choice doesn't mean I would not be alive today. Secondly, I would not care in the slightest if she had. I would not be alive to realise it. How can I feel something if I don't even exist?

[teen.jpg]

You do know that a child in the womb can think and feel like a normal child right?

Even if that's true (I doubt it is) it doesn't matter. The parents created you, they have whatever right to keep you or not, no matter what circumstance it is.

It's literally the same effect of never being pregnant at all. If you're not ready, don't have a baby.

[Vince]

If someone was idiotic enough to not use protection when they did not want a child, they deserve to be punished and not have an easy way out. What that punishment would be, I have no idea. That would be the only reason I would oppose abortion. I have no qualms about the supposed taking of a life. If the sex was non-consensual, then I am absolutely for abortion.

The question I think needs to be asked, though, is what is worse? Taking the life of an organism that wasn't developed enough to feel emotion or forcing a child to grow up with parents that don't want them, or be put up for adoption (which has significant drawbacks)?

[Vocabulous]

Not really my place to decide because I can't give birth, but I say pro choice. Ad don't give me that 'every fetus is a person' because I couldn't care less.

[Horizon]

I am pro-choice.

This doesn't mean I think that abortion is this big colorful rainbow of goodness, I am just more empathetic.

I really do feel that a women should be able to get an abortion if:

1. she wants to.
2. if she gets raped and doesnt want that child.
3. the child will live a short life.
4. any reason she has.

A woman should NOT have to go through raising a child if she does not want to. Yes she should use protection if that is the case, but if she does get pregnant it should be her choice.

And don't try to guilt others because of how you feel! you aren't in their situation, so you aren't even aware of what is going on for them. If they don't want a child, they shouldn't be forced to have that child. Adoption is a good thing yes, but still if a woman doesn't want to go through labor and child birth, she should not have too.

It does NOT make her a coward, it doesn't make her a bad person. You should never shame someone for making decisions for themselves, it's WRONG to do that and makes them feel unnecessary guilt. It IS her body it is HER choice. She has to carry that child, and than later push it out of a hole that can barely even do that. There is so much pain, insurmountable, indescribable pain that comes with child birth. And if a woman does not want that, she does not have to have that.

And I agree that an abortion should be performed at an early stage as possible. But once again, when she gets it is HER CHOICE not someone elses. This is part of the issue of the world. People feel their personal beliefs should dictate other people's lives. If someone gets an abortion, that does not affect you at all. If a stranger you see walking down the street gets an abortion, it wouldn't affect you either way. It's their life, let them make their own choices.

Not being tolerant of how someone feels or thinks because it doesn't coincide with how you think and feel is called BIGOTRY. you don't have agree with them, but you have to accept that they are allowed to think and feel that way. So if someone is pro abortion, or pro choice, you don't have to like it, but you need to tolerate it. Just like if someone is pro life, if they think abortion is wrong thats them they aren't wrong for thinking that. They're just wrong for trying to use their belief and force it upon someone else.

This is part of the issue in society. Everyone wants people to think and act the same as themselves, so they try and make rules and laws that will force people to change their life and their ability to make choices because someone else doesn't like something. Bigotry. Bigotry is a huge problem in society right now, and it's not just from religious people like many believe, it comes from everyone. I'll admit right now I can act bigoted, I try not to, but I can. My friends can act bigoted. But the thing is learning how to see it and how to stop doing that.

So this is my stance on it all. I did not expect myself to be typing any of that o.o

[Edgarr]

Abortion should be mostly illegal.

using an endoscope and other laproscopic tools it is possible to go past the hymen, cervix womb and reach the fallopean tubes, without damaging any of earlier, then local anesthetics can be administered, and fallopen tubes can be cut on a short segment, and closed with burning. then maybe some stuff can be worn by the person inside vagina (with vibrator function perhaps for comfort) this would administer further painkillers for the healing period (but nerves might be removed during the procedure, so no pain at all on those areas.. i dont even remember if there are nerve endings there on the fallopean tube).

This can be standard contraception, and easy to do, so in a way its pro choice, because the female might chose to get this done.
Pregnancy is possible via in vitro fertilization, similarly eggs might be taken from the ovaries wich are still inside the body, fertilized in petry dish (with correct chromosomes using artificial recombination after sequencing or artificial dna synthesis, to prevent inherited disease and determine gender), then the embrio later implanted (womb should be made ready for receiving the embrio).


[abortion might be legal in well justified cases in the lab, for research puproses, mostly done on non living individuals]

[BuryYourFlame]

If someone was idiotic enough to not use protection when they did not want a child, they deserve to be punished and not have an easy way out. What that punishment would be, I have no idea...I have no qualms about the supposed taking of a life.
If it's not because of the idea of taking a life then on what grounds should someone be punished for unintentionally conceiving? Why do you should they be punished especially when you morally have no problem with the 'easy way out'?

Abortion should be mostly illegal.
Why? Even in the section below you haven't given a reason for this.

using an endoscope and other laproscopic tools it is possible to go past the hymen, cervix womb and reach the fallopean tubes, without damaging any of earlier, then local anesthetics can be administered, and fallopen tubes can be cut on a short segment, and closed with burning. then maybe some stuff can be worn by the person inside vagina (with vibrator function perhaps for comfort) this would administer further painkillers for the healing period (but nerves might be removed during the procedure, so no pain at all on those areas.. i dont even remember if there are nerve endings there on the fallopean tube).

This can be standard contraception, and easy to do, so in a way its pro choice, because the female might chose to get this done.
Pregnancy is possible via in vitro fertilization, similarly eggs might be taken from the ovaries wich are still inside the body, fertilized in petry dish (with correct chromosomes using artificial recombination after sequencing or artificial dna synthesis, to prevent inherited disease and determine gender), then the embrio later implanted (womb should be made ready for receiving the embrio).

[abortion might be legal in well justified cases in the lab, for research puproses, mostly done on non living individuals]

A lot of what you said didn't make any sense, and even more of it was totally irrelevant.

Yes, women can choose to get a procedure done which closes off the fallopian tubes to prevent ovulation, but you have not said why they should have to go through this (potentially permanent) surgery when it is often physically easier to get rid of a blastocyst of 70-100 cells.

I don't even know what you mean in your very last section. Are you referring people who have already died getting pregnant...?

[deadpie]

I'm anti-life. Have no problem with abortion along with the complete annihilation of the human race as well.

[Edgarr]

If it's not because of the idea of taking a life then on what grounds should someone be punished for unintentionally conceiving? Why do you should they be punished especially when you morally have no problem with the 'easy way out'?


Why? Even in the section below you haven't given a reason for this.



A lot of what you said didn't make any sense, and even more of it was totally irrelevant.

Yes, women can choose to get a procedure done which closes off the fallopian tubes to prevent ovulation, but you have not said why they should have to go through this (potentially permanent) surgery when it is often physically easier to get rid of a blastocyst of 70-100 cells.

I don't even know what you mean in your very last section. Are you referring people who have already died getting pregnant...?

Of course since this kind of laproscopic procedure is available/can be done, then it should be standard to be done after a while as long as taking blood is considered standard. but of course female should be educated without fearconditioning to chose this method.

I have described artificial recombination and in vitro fertilization and genomic sequencing, so mostly mutations are out of question, but suppose some cells mutate in an embrio later, it will not be tested for all the cells containing the mutation, provided however technology would be enough to do it, then it problems could also be corrected quite likely, otherwise the problem is research strategy.


All of what i wrote made perfect sense, these were a simple step by step description of some procedures.


what is the size of a blastocyst of 70-100 cells?


By the last section i was refering to probably non sentient individuals. such might be aborted only in the lab in well justified experiments. Abortion as contraception is barbaric.


Suppose a female might want to get abortion because was raped and had no fallopean tube clossure and section done. Suppose the baby is not with healthy genes (but it is hard to know). Then.. on the other hand problem is not with the method and "laws" or standards i describe problem is then with other standards (such as the fact that someone was forced to become pregnant without logical reason? [well suppose there is a female.. and for some reason doesnt wanna get pregmant, and humanity would die and She is just set up not to get pregnant.. in some case She should be raped if possible as gently as possible.. but this is a very extreme case.. mostly none should be forced to get pregnant]). So this point should not be handled by the law regarding abortion, but by another law. And of course in theory if we can make up one kind of laws, then we can also do with others.