Minimum wage shouldn't be $15 an hour!

[Walter Powers]

Recently in America there have been protests headed by some big labor unions who want the federal minimum wage raised to $15.00 an hour. $15.00 an hour! They claim they want a "living wage". The current federal minimum wage is $7.50, but most states have laws that set it higher then that. For example, Oregon's is $8.95 hourly.

I think the idea of increasing it this much is crazy. First, this is actually kind of greedy on the part of these minimum wage workers. They are effectively asking to have their pay doubled; who does that? Second, a minimum wage job is meant to get your foot in the door of the workplace. It's intended as a means to get something on your résumé. You should not be raising a family off a minimum wage job! Anybody who expects to do that is crazy. Finally, and most importantly, raising the minimum wage will cause companies to do a combination of these three things to compensate:

1) Fire/lay off employees, raising unemployment. (Ex. less cooks at McDonalds, which also means slower service)
2.) Raise prices of goods/services, increasing inflation (Ex. your Big Mac costs more)
3.) Lower the quality of goods/services (Ex. less meat on your Big Mac)

The executives, owners, and shareholders of business are not going to accept a cut into profit margins to compensate for the increased cost of higher wages.

Can't we all agree that raising the minimum wage to $15 is crazy?

[conniption]

Woah, woah, woah. $15 an hour?! That's crazy. I get it, money is good and everyone wants it, but come on, minimum wage jobs are usually for experience more than anything.

[NeverFazed]

these people are crazy lol..you gotta work your way up before you start earning 15

[deadpie]

Living off minimum wage is definitely not easy. Not only do these jobs pay cheap, the employees you work with are extremely mean, you bust your ass for every penny, nobody ever notices or cares how good you do your job and you never get a raise. It's quite frustrating. Not all parents had planned or expected to have to work 2 full time jobs working for 7.50. Obviously they don't have the money to go to college and you live a life of hard nasty horrible working paying for each bill and the rent, other payments, nothing more. It's a horrible life..

15 bucks starting off is BS though, because there's tons of people who just get hired and do nothing, ex a bunch of lazy teens i work with. Raises are meant to be given for people that work hard. I think the starting pay should be 8.50. That's a dollar more. That dollar, believe it or not, goes pretty fucking far. Anyone that works in fast food or shitty low paying jobs knows this.

[Stronk Serb]

I must agree that this is a too steep change. I would put it 10$ an hour maximum. The wage should increase, but not this fast.

[Harry Smith]

As important as declining living standards are raising it to 15 which is the equivalent of nearly £10 is just too high, I do agree that a living wage needs to be introduced as living standards fall and prices rise, especially in high cost areas like London.

[britishboy]

ur will destroy small businesses and large ones

[ksdnfkfr]

Maybe they're thinking if they say $15, then $9 will sound cheap and that's what will be settled on.

[britishboy]

greedy workers unions:@

[Human]

I think it's too much. Although living off minimum wage is hard, like you said it's a foothold to get a start in life. I'm sure a lot of harder labour workers don't even get $15/h.

[kylem1229]

It depends on the job, I agree that 15 is too much. For Example, mcdonalds people have to deal with the stress of people yelling at them, throwing food at them, fights, etc. Depending on management, they can raise the wage a dollar or so.

[britishboy]

in a time when the economy when fragile as it is, pushing businesses more and lowering their profit is not needed!

[teen.jpg]

Not everyone can get a better job though. Shit, I'm surprised all the minimum wage workers didn't strike or something.

[Harry Smith]

in a time when the economy when fragile as it is, pushing businesses more and lowering their profit is not needed!

By that theory we shouldn't follow up tax evasion because it lowers a businesses profit

[britishboy]

By that theory we shouldn't follow up tax evasion because it lowers a businesses profit

no, tax evasion breaks laws

raising the minimum wage changes laws damaging businesses

[Southside]

Thank You Walt, I was just about to make a thread about this

I believe $15 is too high but $10 or $11 would be make more sense in my opinion. The cost of living is going up, everyone knows that. It's barely possible to raise a family on $7 or $8 dollars a hour, this ties into the Welfare debate too. Dont you think if the minimum wage was raised $2-3 dollars that the amount of people on food stamps and other government benefits would go down? Wouldnt that also mean more tax revenue and more spending?

[Jean Poutine]

I finally agree with you on something.

Minimum wage here in Quebec is 10,15$ and steadily rising. We gotta recognize that life is expensive and that the old wages just don't cut it anymore. Our less educated citizens need to make a living too.

However, 15$, and in one shot, is just too much in the current economic situation. It needs to be elevated gradually to levels approaching Canada's different minimum wages. 15$ an hour is what mechanics and factory workers get to a few dollars. If you want a bigger wage, get into technical school and learn a trade. It's not that hard, it's not that long, it's not expensive at all (at least here) and it's worth it. Currently, all a 15$ an hour min wage means is that corps will just outsource so much more.

People have to face that right now, GEDs and high school diplomas are worth about as much as toilet paper. Here in Quebec, you can quit high school in grade 10 as long as you enroll in a trades program, whose diploma is worth so much more anyway and you only add 1 year to your education (3 years instead of the 2 remaining HS years). Furthermore, that diploma allows you entry in college like any high school diploma. Besides, trades diplomas are very useful in life - imagine fixing up your house without calling a plumber, an electrician or a woodworker to build your shit. Even if you don't use that diploma, you can do it all yourself, saving a lot of money in the long run. My uncle is an electrician by trade and did all the wiring in his house. With the help of his son, he built the whole goddamn house himself.

A 15$ an hour minimum wage will bump up the prices of all these trades that we regularly make use of, because after all, why learn a trade when you can make the same amount of money being a janitor?

Want a bigger wage, get more education. Any monkey can pass high school, that diploma is understandably worthless as education means a premium.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

That will just put stress on the government. (yet again, the US could pull that off, knowing we have 15 trillion dollars in the treasury)

But we already do have economical issues. That will only make them worse, particularly for the unemployed.

[Walter Powers]

As important as declining living standards are raising it to 15 which is the equivalent of nearly £10 is just too high, I do agree that a living wage needs to be introduced as living standards fall and prices rise, especially in high cost areas like London.

Again, a "living wage" is not what the minimum wage is intended to be.

Not everyone can get a better job though. Shit, I'm surprised all the minimum wage workers didn't strike or something.

The reason they don't strike is because they aren't unionized. The main reason they can't unionize is that the employee turnover rate is so high...which it should be. Again, the minimum wage is meant as a means to get your foot in the door of the workforce.

Everybody can make more then minimum wage if they put their mind to it.

Thank You Walt, I was just about to make a thread about this

I believe $15 is too high but $10 or $11 would be make more sense in my opinion. The cost of living is going up, everyone knows that. It's barely possible to raise a family on $7 or $8 dollars a hour, this ties into the Welfare debate too. Dont you think if the minimum wage was raised $2-3 dollars that the amount of people on food stamps and other government benefits would go down? Wouldnt that also mean more tax revenue and more spending?

No, the number of people on food stamps will not go down, in fact it'll go up because unemployment will go up and inflation will increase, as I listed above. Tax revenue will decrease as well for these same reasons.

That will just put stress on the government. (yet again, the US could pull that off, knowing we have 15 trillion dollars in the treasury)

But we already do have economical issues. That will only make them worse, particularly for the unemployed.

It won't just put stress on the government, it'll put stress on employers and much of the workforce.

Our national debt is $17 Trillion. Saying we have economical issues is an understatement. I made a thread about it:

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188578

[Vlerchan]

It's not that I'd worry about the unemployment issues of increasing the minimum wage by such a significant figure - though that would be a problem - but rather inflation; too much money chasing too few goods is quite obviously going to pull up prices. Minimum wage increases need to be gradual, however that still leaves the problem of the 15.1% living under the poverty line (http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/13/news/economy/poverty_rate_income/index.htm); that needs to end, quickly. My solution would be rather that this sudden increase in minimum wage an increase in EITC (http://http://www.eitc.irs.gov/central/abouteitc/). This would allow those in immediate danger of falling under the poverty line to rise above it and perhaps get some struggling families into the 'safe' zones.

It will result in a slight increase in taxes, of course. But since people seem so concerned about business' footing the bill ...

[Harry Smith]

Again, a "living wage" is not what the minimum wage is intended to be.

I'm aware of that, hence why they have different names. I still believe that in certain cities in England especially in the South a revised system needs to be introduced, several small and big businesses have supported the concept of a living wage in Britain. In fact over 300 business to be exact including Barclays

[Walter Powers]

It's not that I'd worry about the unemployment issues of increasing the minimum wage by such a significant figure - though that would be a problem - but rather inflation; too much money chasing too few goods is quite obviously going to pull up prices. Minimum wage increases need to be gradual, however that still leaves the problem of the 15.1% living under the poverty line (http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/13/news/economy/poverty_rate_income/index.htm); that needs to end, quickly. My solution would be rather that this sudden increase in minimum wage an increase in EITC (http://http://www.eitc.irs.gov/central/abouteitc/). This would allow those in immediate danger of falling under the poverty line to rise above it and perhaps get some struggling families into the 'safe' zones.

It will result in a slight increase in taxes, of course. But since people seem so concerned about business' footing the bill ...

The poor in this country already pay a less proportionate amount of income taxes. We can't make them too low, or then they won't have any skin in the game at all and will keep voting themselves more money.

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin

However, I would support this if you lowered taxes across the board for every income bracket.
Again, you shouldn't be raising a family off minimum wage.


We already have food stamps and such. There's only so much we can do before people have to step up and do things on there own.

[PinkFloyd]

$15 bucks! That's over the top... Most employers can't afford to pay that. I get what people are saying, because I work at McDonald's, but protesting for a $6.50 raise is stupid.

[Southside]

Again, a "living wage" is not what the minimum wage is intended to be.



The reason they don't strike is because they aren't unionized. The main reason they can't unionize is that the employee turnover rate is so high...which it should be. Again, the minimum wage is meant as a means to get your foot in the door of the workforce.

Everybody can make more then minimum wage if they put their mind to it.



No, the number of people on food stamps will not go down, in fact it'll go up because unemployment will go up and inflation will increase, as I listed above. Tax revenue will decrease as well for these same reasons.



It won't just put stress on the government, it'll put stress on employers and much of the workforce.

Our national debt is $17 Trillion. Saying we have economical issues is an understatement. I made a thread about it:

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=188578

Number of people on food stamps would go down because those people who were once making $7-8 and struggling to buy food would now be able to afford food without government assisstance. Raising the minimum wage would be good for the economy, more money in people's pockets=more spending=more jobs.

You have to raise the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, thats the bottom line.

It's been decades long research studies on raising the minimum wage, the bottom line is more people would be able to sustain themselves than having to rely on government assisstance. Take a look at these 2 articles and tell me whats wrong with raising it to 10 or 11 dollars?

Dont you think its sickening that in 35 States of the "greatest country in the world" welfare pays more than a minimum wage job?

Ihttp://www.timeforaraise.org/benefits-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib341-raising-federal-minimum-wage/

[Walter Powers]

Number of people on food stamps would go down because those people who were once making $7-8 and struggling to buy food would now be able to afford food without government assisstance. Raising the minimum wage would be good for the economy, more money in people's pockets=more spending=more jobs.

You have to raise the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, thats the bottom line.

It's been decades long research studies on raising the minimum wage, the bottom line is more people would be able to sustain themselves than having to rely on government assisstance. Take a look at these 2 articles and tell me whats wrong with raising it to 10 or 11 dollars?

Dont you think its sickening that in 48 States of the "greatest country in the world" welfare pays more than a minimum wage job?

Http://www.timeforaraise.org/benefits-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib341-raising-federal-minimum-wage/

First of all, the EPI is an organization of liberals, who want the end result of any study they do to come out with a conclusion that we should raise the minimum wage. That's bad science. You have to take their findings with a grain of salt. I could give you a contradictory report from a right leaning think tank, if you'd like:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/raising-the-minimum-wage-will-not-reduce-poverty

Second, nowhere in the EPIs report does it seem to specify how they accounted for the loss of jobs and increase in inflation that will inevitably happen should the minimum wage be increased.

Your "Time For A Raise" link is complete garbage, it takes a one sided look at the issue and essentially says the the minimum wage should be something your able to raise a family on, which it isn't.

Number of people on food stamps would go down because those people who were once making $7-8 and struggling to buy food would now be able to afford food without government assisstance. Raising the minimum wage would be good for the economy, more money in people's pockets=more spending=more jobs.

You are thinking about this backwards. The bottom line is that less people will be working as a result of this, as companies will lay people off, and our society will be less productive, and our GDP will go down.

Also the number of people on food stamps will not go down because food will be more expensive.

You have to raise the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, thats the bottom line

Again, you should not be living off the minimum wage! How much exactly do you think the wage should be raised to? And again, increasing the minimum wage will increase the cost of living even further.

Also, I would hope you would agree this is a states issue, as the cost of living varies so much by state?

Dont you think its sickening that in 48 States of the "greatest country in the world" welfare pays more than a minimum wage job?
Yes, it is sickening! Those states are paying out way too much welfare!

[CharlieHorse]

There are people in situations where they can only get a minimum wage job. And they have to support multiple people with this one job hoping that maybe one of them could go to college.
I think some people should be able to get 15/h and everyone else is normal.

[Vlerchan]

By temporarily lowering the tax rates on low-income workers you can allow them to escape the poverty zone (inflation free, mind you); once outside the poverty zone and earning a proper wage their tax credits will gradually lessen until they can fully support themselves (and their families) without aid of the state. Poverty is a vicious cycle and without outside (i.e Government) intervention it can be impossible to escape; you need to help them to help themselves, basically. America is in a bad way - you made a thread about it, like - and taking time to help those in poverty now would actually be beneficial; more money means more spending and more growth. (And, really, temporary tax reductions doesn't equate with free money.)

But really, I'd like to see your suggestion on exterminating poverty. Laissez-Faire doesn't work, really.

[Harry Smith]

Again, you should not be living off the minimum wage! How much exactly do you think the wage should be raised to? And again, increasing the minimum wage will increase the cost of living even further.

Also, I would hope you would agree this is a states issue, as the cost of living varies so much by state?

It's not as simple as saying I don't want to live on minimum wage, for people entering the jobs market minimum wage is where they'll start if they've missed out on college education. Many people have to rely on minimum wages, you can moan about it all you want they'll always be people on it for different reasons

And I do think it's a states issue as long as it's well managed because it does vary depending on your location.

[Walter Powers]

There are people in situations where they can only get a minimum wage job. And they have to support multiple people with this one job hoping that maybe one of them could go to college.
I think some people should be able to get 15/h and everyone else is normal.

How do you propose we administer a policy like that?

You should be paid $15 an hour if somebody is willing to pay you that and thus your work is worth that.

By temporarily lowering the tax rates on low-income workers you can allow them to escape the poverty zone (inflation free, mind you); once outside the poverty zone and earning a proper wage their tax credits will gradually lessen until they can fully support themselves (and their families) without aid of the state. Poverty is a vicious cycle and without outside (i.e Government) intervention it can be impossible to escape; you need to help them to help themselves, basically. America is in a bad way - you made a thread about it, like - and taking time to help those in poverty now would actually be beneficial; more money means more spending and more growth. (And, really, temporary tax reductions doesn't equate with free money.)

But really, I'd like to see your suggestion on exterminating poverty. Laissez-Faire doesn't work, really.

I'm glad you see the logic in lowering tax rates, however, if we do it for one group we should do it for all.

The way you end the vicious cycle of poverty is with good schools and good parents. I propose more charter school and voucher programs to students, those have worked miracles in the very poor city of New Orleans, and also campaigns to get impoverished parents to step up to the plate.

[Vlerchan]

I'm glad you see the logic in lowering tax rates, however, if we do it for one group we should do it for all.

The way you end the vicious cycle of poverty is with good schools and good parents. I propose more charter school and voucher programs to students, those have worked miracles in the very poor city of New Orleans, and also campaigns to get impoverished parents to step up to the plate.

There is a big difference between advocating a temporary reduction of tax rates for the less-well-off and advocating Right-Libertarianism - of which, last time I checked, seems to be failing in every country attempting it (excluding the hideously oil-rich OPEC nations) - though I presume that quip was only offered in the hope of avoiding having to refute my point.

Explain to me how anyone can hope to be a good parent working three part-time jobs in an attempt to put food on the table and naught else? And, regardless of how good the education in your charter schools happens to be it doesn't remove the fact that you need lots of money to move on to university and have any hope of getting a half-decent job; high-school diploma's don't count for anything anymore; BAs don't even mean as much as they used too, like. And I'm not knocking your suggestions - they seem nice, like; good intentions always are - but they display a huge amount of naivety in the way the world works (EDIT: or excessive optimism, perhaps; naivety looks bad written out).

[Castle of Glass]

I my honest opinione, 15 dollars is too high, but 10 dollars is better.

[Sir Suomi]

Seeing as I worked probably one of the shittiest jobs ever known to mankind, which is detassling(Doesn't spending 9 hours in a cornfield sound like fun?), and knowing that it paid minimum wage, I've always wanted the minimum wage to go up. But $15 dollars is too much. It would end up hurting more people than helping. $9.25 is what I'd suggest. Decent pay, yet not enough to hurt too much.

[Pittsburgh]

Fifteeen bucks an hour is for ppl with a skill, not burger flippers

[James Bond]

Way too much.

I think minimum wage shouldn't be raised at all. You shouldn't even plan to have a family if you work at a fast food place. The most minimum wage should be raised is $8.25-8.75 an hour. That amount would be enough for employees to live off of, and it wouldn't completely ruin a business. Hell, even if minimum wage went up to $9.25 that wouldn't ruin a business, it'd just put a large strain on it.

I'm aware of that, hence why they have different names. I still believe that in certain cities in England especially in the South a revised system needs to be introduced, several small and big businesses have supported the concept of a living wage in Britain. In fact over 300 business to be exact including Barclays

Who cares about England, this debate isn't about England. It's about the US. Who cares what England think or does, it won't apply so easily to the US or it won't apply at all. England has a mere 51 million people, the US has over 319 million. The US has to deal with more than 6x the population of England. Controlling a small country like England doesn't compare to controlling a small country like the US like you like to think (like in past debates such as gun control. You cannot simply ban all guns and expect no one to be able to get them, in England you may be able to do that, but not in the US because the government there in the US has more land to cover and more than 320 million people to watch over). Additionally, it'd be easier for Britain because the pound is worth more than the dollar.

You are very naive to think that what you do in England can be applied to the US. It can't be and it never will be like that. It should be a state matter, not a national matter. Obama has taken away enough of the power from the states, he's making the national government more powerful than the state government which is nothing the founding fathers wanted.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Cygnus]

I don't think doubling the wage would not help the economy in much. The US has an excellent minimum wage, you can't even have a full time maid in the US unlike latin america. They could (and maybe should) increase it but not double it.

[Southside]

First of all, the EPI is an organization of liberals, who want the end result of any study they do to come out with a conclusion that we should raise the minimum wage. That's bad science. You have to take their findings with a grain of salt. I could give you a contradictory report from a right leaning think tank, if you'd like:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/raising-the-minimum-wage-will-not-reduce-poverty

Second, nowhere in the EPIs report does it seem to specify how they accounted for the loss of jobs and increase in inflation that will inevitably happen should the minimum wage be increased.

Your "Time For A Raise" link is complete garbage, it takes a one sided look at the issue and essentially says the the minimum wage should be something your able to raise a family on, which it isn't.



You are thinking about this backwards. The bottom line is that less people will be working as a result of this, as companies will lay people off, and our society will be less productive, and our GDP will go down.

Also the number of people on food stamps will not go down because food will be more expensive.



Again, you should not be living off the minimum wage! How much exactly do you think the wage should be raised to? And again, increasing the minimum wage will increase the cost of living even further.

Also, I would hope you would agree this is a states issue, as the cost of living varies so much by state?


Yes, it is sickening! Those states are paying out way too much welfare!

My apologies for the delay on reply, I've been pretty occupied with school work.

Dont you think 9.25 or maybe even 10 bucks is a decent minimum wage? What if they are living off the minimum wage because they didnt have enough money to go to college? We are going to be dealing with more people working minimum wage jobs if the price of a higher education doesnt go down.

[Slippers]

A minimum wage is a good thing, but $15.00 per hour! Surely this is too high for a company to sustain many of their staff. People would be made unemployed because a small firm wouldn't be capable of sustaining their current production levels AND current staffing levels.

I agree that a minimum wage should be set to avoid large commercial company's from exploiting employees, but it needs to be realistic.

[tovaris]

Switzerland has ower 4000 franks a month

[GypsyGirl]

I guess they're aiming high... but really the min where I live is $6.50 an hour. They should go for $8.50 or $9.00 at the most if they really need it raised.

[Synyster Shadows]

This is really pretty ridiculous. As it's been said, minimum wage jobs are to get a person started in the work force. Besides, the US is already deep in debt. We can't afford to do this. I think this is absolutely ridiculous.

[LifeOfLove]

$10 an hour would be fine. Minimum wage is not meant to support your life, it's mostly meant for students who have very little costs until they graduate and get a real job. $10 should be the MAX required to pay somebody, if they do work that deserves $15 an hour, then pay them $15.

[Camazotz]

Minimum wage is $7.25 in NJ. In Oregon (where you say you're from), it's $8.95. The difference is because of a difference in cost of living between our two states (and the rest of the states as well).

I'd love to make $10 an hour.

[poorsoul]

If you have minimum skill and minimum experience you should make the minimum wage, 10 bucks N hour is too much for mcdonalds

[britishboy]

If you have minimum skill and minimum experience you should make the minimum wage, 10 bucks N hour is too much for mcdonalds

completely agree

[Southside]

completely agree

I noticed the same people saying the minimum wage shouldn't be raised are the same people complaining how many people are on food stamps and welfare...

If it was raised 2-3 dollars, that'd give people a decent wage to live on and support their family, maybe they wouldn't have to depend on welfare.

Though I do agree on this, $15 is too high, $10-$11 is more reasonable.

[poorsoul]

I noticed the same people saying the minimum wage shouldn't be raised are the same people complaining how many people are on food stamps and welfare...

If it was raised 2-3 dollars, that'd give people a decent wage to live on and support their family, maybe they wouldn't have to depend on welfare.

Though I do agree on this, $15 is too high, $10-$11 is more reasonable.

If that made any sense then why not have the wage be 100, 000 an hour? Then everyone would be rich. Payment is based on value, a guy with less skill is less valuable then someone with more skill

[Harry Smith]

If that made any sense then why not have the wage be 100, 000 an hour? Then everyone would be rich. Payment is based on value, a guy with less skill is less valuable then someone with more skill

That does make sense, the minimum wage can't stay at a fixed price for the next 20 years as prices keep going up. Of course payment is based on skill- that's obvious

[poorsoul]

That does make sense, the minimum wage can't stay at a fixed price for the next 20 years as prices keep going up. Of course payment is based on skill- that's obvious

I don't think a federaly mandate maximum or minimum wage should be instituted, it screws the system up

[Southside]

If that made any sense then why not have the wage be 100, 000 an hour? Then everyone would be rich. Payment is based on value, a guy with less skill is less valuable then someone with more skill

Less valuable? Low wage jobs make up a large part of our workforce

I guess your OK with the large amount of people on welfare..

[Vlerchan]

If that made any sense then why not have the wage be 100, 000 an hour? Then everyone would be rich. Payment is based on value, a guy with less skill is less valuable then someone with more skill
Increasing the wage to 100, 000 an hour would cause a huge increase in demand-pull inflation - that much is common sense. Huge increases in the minimum wage aren't needed however for normal levels of inflation to take place however and hence that is why the minimum wage needs to be increased - whilst a minimum wage employee might hold the same value as he did ten years ago, the food he feeds his children with, and the clothes he dresses them in certainly haven't. Of course as stated a number of times I'd rather extra tax credits be given to those on the minimum wage - or above, even; anyone living below the poverty line, really - fitting certain characteristics - over twenty; with child; whatever, I haven't spent much time thinking on it - rather than increase the wage that every other wage is pegged to. The minimum wage should increase gradually with inflation - there shouldn't be huge jumps of 1$+.

I don't think a federally mandate maximum or minimum wage should be instituted, it screws the system up
If by screws the system you mean forces company to give equitable terms of employment, then sure - yeah - I'm with you on that one. It also allows individuals to contribute a greater amount to the economy and boost aggregate demand; I'm with Keynes in that I believe paying less is detrimental towards economic growth. Though, I'm rather hypocritical in the fact that I believe that the current wage being given to individuals in East Asia is best at this moment in time - I can expand in another thread if needs be; lets just say it concerns current level of FDI from multination's, and the severely detrimental impact that could occur in the East Asian economies if it suddenly became just as profitable to produce in America, or Europe.

[poorsoul]

Increasing the wage to 100, 000 an hour would cause a huge increase in demand-pull inflation - that much is common sense. Huge increases in the minimum wage aren't needed however for normal levels of inflation to take place however and hence that is why the minimum wage needs to be increased - whilst a minimum wage employee might hold the same value as he did ten years ago, the food he feeds his children with, and the clothes he dresses them in certainly haven't. Of course as stated a number of times I'd rather extra tax credits be given to those on the minimum wage - or above, even; anyone living below the poverty line, really - fitting certain characteristics - over twenty; with child; whatever, I haven't spent much time thinking on it - rather than increase the wage that every other wage is pegged to. The minimum wage should increase gradually with inflation - there shouldn't be huge jumps of 1$+.


If by screws the system you mean forces company to give equitable terms of employment, then sure - yeah - I'm with you on that one. It also allows individuals to contribute a greater amount to the economy and boost aggregate demand; I'm with Keynes in that I believe paying less is detrimental towards economic growth. Though, I'm rather hypocritical in the fact that I believe that the current wage being given to individuals in East Asia is best at this moment in time - I can expand in another thread if needs be; lets just say it concerns current level of FDI from multination's, and the severely detrimental impact that could occur in the East Asian economies if it suddenly became just as profitable to produce in America, or Europe.
1. see wages would do that if there wasn't a mandated minimum or maximum, they would fluctuate very easily. I mean really whats to blame is the federal currency itself, its not based on the priniciples of value, rather whatever the FED says its based on.

2. Keynsian theory is always wrong, stimulating the economy by putting more money in peoples hands doesnt work, never has never will. example, all quantatiive easings in the bush presidency and the stimulus packages.
You dont want to spend more, the way to flourish is to produce more.

[Cognizant]

Well, if you're trying to make it by just on your own, it's pretty difficult getting 8 dollars an hour. However, if you have another income/support coming your way, it's not really as difficult. I'm going to be getting a job soon that's most likely minimum wage and won't be able to afford my own car until like July 2014, but I'm content with that as long as it's not too grueling. In other words, I don't need $15/hour.

Them unions :P

[Vlerchan]

1. see wages would do that if there wasn't a mandated minimum or maximum, they would fluctuate very easily. I mean really whats to blame is the federal currency itself, its not based on the priniciples of value, rather whatever the FED says its based on.
Removing the Minimum Wage would only result in a race to the bottom of the pay rate; wages would fluctuate - or spiral, even - downwards as individuals - more so those in the unskilled service sector - competed for jobs and then stop at what you'd probably call the 'equilibrium' level, and what I'd expect to be far below the minimum standard - consumption would inevitably drop too as a result, too. Though there's also the whole of idea of Social Welfare which'd set an unofficial minimum wage, anyway.

Please don't tell me you're about to advocate Gold Buggery. It always seems to follow complaints concerning the FED.

2. Keynsian theory is always wrong, stimulating the economy by putting more money in peoples hands doesnt work, never has never will. example, all quantatiive easings in the bush presidency and the stimulus packages.
Um. Quantitative Easing is a Monetarist policy; not Keynesian - entirely different; though I won't deny that plenty of Keynesians do support it[1]. Stimuli in general also does achieve increased economic growth through stimulating aggregate demand; whilst staunch anti-statists may vehemently deny that it doesn't make it any less true - Germany (http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/a-keynesian-success-story-germany-s-new-economic-miracle-a-707231.html) is the greatest recent example, and it did work to an extent in America.

You don't want to spend more, the way to flourish is to produce more
I believe the opposite. It's through increased levels of consumer spending that we undergo increased economic growth. As such we need government stimulus' during times of recession in order to stimulate this consumer spending.

EDIT:
[1]: Even then though - from what I'm reading; I'll admit I haven't looked much into QE before - it only seems to be in times in which an economy is stuck in a liquidity trap - i.e Japan.

[Moth]

I think the minimum wage needs some form of boost, $15 is almost £10 an hour (I'm from England) and I have met people who have worked a minimum wage job for the last 10 years because that is all that is available to them. However he is earning £6.19 an hour, breaking his back everyday. A 50 year old man works himself tirelessly everyday whilst his boss (a 24 year old man) with a fancy piece of paper from a university pushing his pen across his Mahogany desk. It's absolutely disgusting. Of course minimum wage should be increased because I believe the harder you work, the less you get paid, this is true!
Minimum wage is not from a job where you work part time to bolster your 'resume'. It's something alot of people work for, if society showed compassion instead of "greed" that some of you worded out of context, maybe the world would work for everyone.

[Vlerchan]

I think the minimum wage needs some form of boost, $15 is almost £10 an hour (I'm from England) and I have met people who have worked a minimum wage job for the last 10 years because that is all that is available to them. However he is earning £6.19 an hour, breaking his back everyday. A 50 year old man works himself tirelessly everyday whilst his boss (a 24 year old man) with a fancy piece of paper from a university pushing his pen across his Mahogany desk. It's absolutely disgusting. Of course minimum wage should be increased because I believe the harder you work, the less you get paid, this is true!
Minimum wage is not from a job where you work part time to bolster your 'resume'. It's something alot of people work for, if society showed compassion instead of "greed" that some of you worded out of context, maybe the world would work for everyone.
The problem with increasing the minimum wage by significant amounts is that every other wage is pegged to it - i.e everyone else's wage increases too in accordance with the minimum wage. Whilst it might seem a good idea to increase the minimum wage to that of Fancy Pants it's important to realise that Fancy Pants is going to undergo roughly the same proportion of wage increases to deal with the sudden resulting inflation - and his own demands - that comes with raising the wage to such levels and continue being better off. And that's the major problem with these large increases in minimum wage: increased inflation, and it's effects on important sectors of the economy such as the balance of trade - i.e imports/exports. Whilst I do agree that the minimum wage needs to be increased somewhat in order to deal with general inflation resulting from economic growth, I believe there is better ways to secure a decent standard of living for those on minimum wage rather than increasing the minimum wage itself which I've elaborated on in previous posts.

[Moth]

The problem with increasing the minimum wage by significant amounts is that every other wage is pegged to it - i.e everyone else's wage increases too in accordance with the minimum wage. Whilst it might seem a good idea to increase the minimum wage to that of Fancy Pants it's important to realise that Fancy Pants is going to undergo roughly the same proportion of wage increases to deal with the sudden resulting inflation - and his own demands - that comes with raising the wage to such levels and continue being better off. And that's the major problem with these large increases in minimum wage: increased inflation, and it's effects on important sectors of the economy such as the balance of trade - i.e imports/exports. Whilst I do agree that the minimum wage needs to be increased somewhat in order to deal with general inflation resulting from economic growth, I believe there is better ways to secure a decent standard of living for those on minimum wage rather than increasing the minimum wage itself which I've elaborated on in previous posts.
I understand issues with inflation. What I meant by "some form of boost" was not strictly just a rise in pay, I meant more reasonable working conditions and an understanding between Management and workforce that isn't just "You're working for me, you aren't a human being with feelings and emotions, you are my profitable asset."
I agree with you, the current 'idea' of democracy is failing and with new technological and communication advancements it will only be a matter of time before people realise that capitalism is evil and cannot thrive once we are aware of our own humanity.. They have us in a vice at the moment with materialism and the dumbing down of the people.
It is off topic, but the subject is an underlying truth.

[Luminous]

I agree, $15 is just insane. McDonalds isn't meant to be living wage. It's meant to be a teen's first job or even a second, smaller job!! I agree it's slightly low, but doubling it is too much. I think $10 is a good amount per hour. Not too much, not too little, easy to manage and keep track of and work with and whatever else.

[darthearth]

There are people in situations where they can only get a minimum wage job. And they have to support multiple people with this one job hoping that maybe one of them could go to college.
I think some people should be able to get 15/h and everyone else is normal.

I definitely agree with the fact that some people can only find a minimum wage job and they have to raise a family, they didn't have the luxury of spending a year or two sending out resumes. Unfortunately, I'm afraid implementing a preference system like this is a non-starter, no way it can really practically be done.

But I could almost quote every single responder here. You all say that minimum wage jobs are only supposed to be an introduction to the work force. But hello?, that is not the reality. Do you people realize how many people with college degrees are working in these jobs?! There are not enough professional opportunities for people with a variety of degrees. This is because nearly everyone has been able to get a degree through generous government financial aid (i.e. student loans) and many jobs that would have used them have been off-shored or are being done by some automated system. Correct? One of the big problems is that people have been encouraged to "follow your dreams", ignoring the job availability end of things.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue right now, but I do know the introduction to workforce argument falls completely flat to the reality. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Vlerchan]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid implementing a preference system like this is a non-starter, no way it can really practically be done.
It could be done, but it'd be the state footing the bill rather than corporations. It'd be as simple as allowing extra tax credits - or opening people's eyes to the existence of tax credits; that seems to be part of the problem, too. - and income subsidies to those earning under a certain amount per year and fitting certain characteristics. With that it would be possible to tailor a roughly fair wage for each low-income worker.

"You're working for me, you aren't a human being with feelings and emotions, you are my profitable asset."
We're currently covering Labour in our economics class and that's exactly how we're thought to picture the labour force - cogs in a machine, working our land and/or capital. I don't expect that to change any time soon, though; capitalism may be built around the evils of human greed, but at the moment it's the only feasible system we got.

[Moth]

I don't expect that to change any time soon, though; capitalism may be built around the evils of human greed, but at the moment it's the only feasible system we got.

Well that is a crying shame. The system is not working and it is removing our humanity and replacing it with designer brand clothing, iPhones and computers. We're taught to love things and not people, that's why your typical American would rather buy a new pair of shoes than feed the homeless guy on their street. And if that is what you actually do, the popular people will shun and disrespect you because you don't have those shoes.

[HahaWaitWhat]

They can raise the minimum wage all they want it won't help anyone. If they raise the minimum wage then the cost of everything else will raise with it.

[Vlerchan]

They can raise the minimum wage all they want it won't help anyone. If they raise the minimum wage then the cost of everything else will raise with it.
Whilst there's some element of truth in that statement it's largely wrong.

Inflation happens without a raise in minimum wage, and that's why we must raise minimum wage in turn to keep up. Whilst it's true that a sudden large increase in minimum wage might result in a bout of long-term demand pull inflation, continued small increases are certainly needed - actually check the purchasing power of the dollar today versus ten years ago. Secondly, and this is sorta unrelated, it's important to realise that healthy - i.e sustainable - doses of inflation (~2%) are good for an economy - makes borrowing progressively less burdensome and tends to increase the rate of consumer spending. It's deflation resulting from a reduction in consumption - what stems from reducing the minimum wage; or eliminating it, even - that we should all be fearing.

[poorsoul]

Removing the Minimum Wage would only result in a race to the bottom of the pay rate;
companys would pay you what they are willing to pay, and you have to freedom to not work for that pay. its as simple as that,


and it did work to an extent in America.
i sure havent seen that


I believe the opposite. It's through increased levels of consumer spending that we undergo increased economic growth. As such we need government stimulus' during times of recession in order to stimulate this consumer spending.
like i said you are wrong, plain and simple. Gas prices are much much higher at this point, contributing to the rise in price of all goods. the goverment stimulus, which is just the printing of money, drives inflation up and up, contributing to the price of everything. People are spending plenty and we aren't flourishing.

look at greece, they have plenty of goverment stimuli and they went bankrupt, why dont you socialist look at the world and history?
Socialist leaders have been spouting the same bs for years.

When there is more production things are cheaper, people buy more of that product, then even more is produced.

EDIT:
[1]: Even then though - from what I'm reading; I'll admit I haven't looked much into QE before - it only seems to be in times in which an economy is stuck in a liquidity trap - i.e Japan.[/QUOTE]
QE is just printing money, the same as the stimulus package

Read "economics in one lesson"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOMksnSaAJ4

[Vlerchan]

companys would pay you what they are willing to pay, and you have to freedom to not work for that pay. its as simple as thatLike in East Asia, right? The average standard of living is good over there.

Seriously. I hate to break it to you but unskilled labourers really don't have all that much choice when it comes to employment opportunities - whilst technically they'd have the freedom to reject any job offer based on the going rates they still need to eat eventually, and so do their families; they can't postpone taking employment indefinitely, and corporations know that.

i sure havent seen that.Actually look at the US growth figures from straight after the introduction of the stimulus, and then come back. Thanks. Check this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/business/economy/28bailout.html?_r=1&) too while you're at it.

the goverment stimulus, which is just the printing of money,No it's not. The stimulus came from borrowing money, and then investing it into the economy. I can tell you right now that printing almost 1 trillion American dollars would've had some rather noticeable effects on the economy - largely detrimental ones, mind you.

drives inflation up and up, contributing to the price of everything.People are spending plenty and we aren't flourishing.
America's current inflation rate is only 1.52%. Read my last post for reasons why I believe such inflation rates to be good.

look at greece, they have plenty of goverment stimuli and they went bankrupt, why dont you socialist look at the world and history?Greece went bankrupt (largely) because people working in the private sector weren't filing correct tax estimations and consequently weren't making the right tax returns. I actually spoke to a Greek guy about this, those were near his exact words - I can speak to him again for you tomorrow and get his actual exact words if needs be. Instead though you can read this; (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8585593/Greece-loses-15bn-a-year-to-tax-evasion.html) this; (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8770940/Greek-tax-evasion-There-is-just-such-little-incentive-to-be-honest..html) and this. (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki) Generally bad Greek governance hasn't helped either.

I'm also not a Socialist. But the Ad Hominem still added to your point, don't worry.

Socialist leaders have been spouting the same bs for years. That's simply wrong. Keynesianism is actually a capitalist form of economic governance - unless these socialists are really capitalists in disguise, then sure I can see them calling for it.

When there is more production things are cheaper, people buy more of that product, then even more is produced.American governments that focused more on expanding consumption over enterprise in the last fifty years have tended to have done (much) better than those focusing on expanding enterprise over consumption. History is on my side.

Read "economics in one lesson"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOMksnSaAJ4I usually prefer Ron Paul to Sowell. He makes better use of the non-sequitur.

[HUSTLEMAN]

I'm agreeing with Ezra on this one. The unions are going to ask for a ridiculous price such as $15 then they'll haggle their way down to $9-$8 dollar range. If that's not the case and they legitimately want $15 minimum wage then they're crazy if that's what their expecting.

[Mastretta]

The executives, owners, and shareholders of business are not going to accept a cut into profit margins to compensate for the increased cost of higher wages.

No, major companies like Mcdonalds make enough money so raising minimum wage wouldn't bother them.
For example the Papa johns indecent that happened this year with the employees not having health insurance. People said your same argument but in reality the price of the pizza would stay the same and if they did raise the price it would only cost a few more cents.

But I do agree $15 is way too high but raising it to about $10 wouldn't be bad. It would help companies too be honest, the employees have enough money to buy goods/services.

[Sugaree]

No, major companies like Mcdonalds make enough money so raising minimum wage wouldn't bother them.

Uh, do you know how many people work at McDonald's? Just in America alone, they have close to one million people working for them. Since most, if not all, McDonald's are now 24 hour places now, and McDonald's has over 13,000 restaurants open at ANY given time, paying each worker who is currently on duty a minimum of 15 dollars an hour for just a regular part time 4 to 6 hour shift (which amounts to 90 dollars a shift before taxes) times the number of workers you have to pay...that's going to eat into profits.

Where do you think the paycheck comes from? The bank? The postman? No, it comes from the company's profits. It is the company's responsibility to pay the employees. If the minimum wage were raised to anything above, at best, 9 dollars an hour, you would see major increase in prices because companies would actually be losing out on monthly profits to keep themselves going.

Just because you're a big multi-national company that has thousands of restaurants or stores around the world who has hired millions of people doesn't mean you can't just as easily go down with the flick of a wrist. A minimum wage is just that: a MINIMUM. It's not meant for anyone to live on, it's meant as a starting pay. And I'm sorry, NO ONE deserves to start pay at 15 dollars an hour.

[Mastretta]

Uh, do you know how many people work at McDonald's? Just in America alone, they have close to one million people working for them. Since most, if not all, McDonald's are now 24 hour places now, and McDonald's has over 13,000 restaurants open at ANY given time, paying each worker who is currently on duty a minimum of 15 dollars an hour for just a regular part time 4 to 6 hour shift (which amounts to 90 dollars a shift before taxes) times the number of workers you have to pay...that's going to eat into profits.

Where do you think the paycheck comes from? The bank? The postman? No, it comes from the company's profits. It is the company's responsibility to pay the employees. If the minimum wage were raised to anything above, at best, 9 dollars an hour, you would see major increase in prices because companies would actually be losing out on monthly profits to keep themselves going.

Just because you're a big multi-national company that has thousands of restaurants or stores around the world who has hired millions of people doesn't mean you can't just as easily go down with the flick of a wrist. A minimum wage is just that: a MINIMUM. It's not meant for anyone to live on, it's meant as a starting pay. And I'm sorry, NO ONE deserves to start pay at 15 dollars an hour.

You didn't read it all. Yes $15 is way too much and we're not ready for it yet. And also Australia minimum wage is $16 usd and they're doing fine, no need to cut back and raise prices. A McDonalds does not have over 5 people on one shift working 2 for drive in 1-2 in front and 2 in back so 90 x 5= $450... They make that in one hour so taking out one hour of profit off of the average profit of $10k is really not a big deal. But again $15 is too much at this point of age but $10 is good enough.

[britishboy]

urhhhh I wish all this populist politics would stop it does no good for the country, a cleaner or bin man should be happy with what they get

[Stardust]

Idk if its the same in America but in Australia minimum wage changes with age (until 20 years/until covered by an 'award agreement'). So for under 16s (i.e a large portion of workers at McDonalds) the minimum wage is $6. When you are 20 or above you are on at least 16. That said, I think everything costs a lot more here. I.e for a large big mac meal (in which there is actually less product. Lower quantity of fries and drink etc...) it would be around 8.95 (i think) so around 8.37 USD. I'm not sure how that compares over there just suggesting it may be more simply cause I went to maccas in Vegas and you could get cheeseburgers and apple pies and all this stuff for like 50c-$1.

Outside of the maccas realm everything in general life here costs a lot more. Also we don't have a tipping system so no real way to earn extra on top of the minimum. I think its all relative and I tend to agree that raising it by that much will have to cause inflation and unemployment

[Southside]

urhhhh I wish all this populist politics would stop it does no good for the country, a cleaner or bin man should be happy with what they get

So they should be happy with not being able to support their families?

I notice the same people who are against raising the minimum wage are the same people complaining about the number of people on welfare..

The minimum wage needs to be increased with the rate of inflation, simple as that. Though as I said in previous post, $15 is a bit too high, $10-11 is more acceptable.

[britishboy]

So they should be happy with not being able to support their families?

I notice the same people who are against raising the minimum wage are the same people complaining about the number of people on welfare..

The minimum wage needs to be increased with the rate of inflation, simple as that. Though as I said in previous post, $15 is a bit too high, $10-11 is more acceptable.

I have little sympathy no one is forcing them into the job and the number of people on welfare no that would be silly thats the economy's fault but welfare does give out to much, nobody on welfare should have any luxuries

[Sugaree]

The minimum wage needs to be increased with the rate of inflation, simple as that. Though as I said in previous post, $15 is a bit too high, $10-11 is more acceptable.

Ok, here's a chart of the minimum wage rates of all 50 states in the union and the District of Columbia. Let's do some math after viewing the chart. Bear with me here!

http://www.tagpay.com/files/2413/5717/2091/tag.png

Add all those numbers up and it should come up to about $363.36. Now divide this by 50 (the total number of states, as DC doesn't really count as a "state") and you get $7.26. Now, this is ONE CENT above minimum wage, which is 7.25/hour. I don't see how raising the minimum wage by almost three or four dollars is really going to help. Maybe raising to 9.25/hour would be acceptable in my eyes, as this is a good starting point for a person new to the work force. But part of me thinks you're trying to assume that people are trying to live off the minimum wage, which is almost impossible to do.

I have little sympathy no one is forcing them into the job and the number of people on welfare no that would be silly thats the economy's fault but welfare does give out to much, nobody on welfare should have any luxuries

Yeah, only rich people like you should get luxuries like a roof over your head and food in your belly.

[Mastretta]

I have little sympathy no one is forcing them into the job and the number of people on welfare no that would be silly that's the economy's fault but welfare does give out to much, nobody on welfare should have any luxuries
Kids are born into family's and so therefore they can't choose what there parents did in the past or been through with there education so you saying " nobody on welfare should have any luxuries" Makes you sound horrible. Luxuries are stuff not needed so electricity,ac/heat etc meaning you're saying it's OK for kids to live like cavemen. If you're in the UK stay in UK politics because you don't know what is going on in the US, and you sound dumber to say "No one is forcing them into the job" Because they're they need to pay for there non-luxuries

[Southside]

I have little sympathy no one is forcing them into the job and the number of people on welfare no that would be silly thats the economy's fault but welfare does give out to much, nobody on welfare should have any luxuries

So a person who lost their job due to the company moving to China or Mexico shouldn't have luxuries? A person who works 2-3 minimum wage jobs and has kids shouldn't have luxuries? Not everyone on welfare is a lazy couch bum, some of the hardest working people in the workforce are on welfare.

What if they are doing those low end jobs because they cant afford college or higher education?
What if they are doing low end jobs because well paying companies are outsourcing jobs overseas and they cant find any?
What if all the companies and corporations in their area moved away?

You never look at those circumstances, the biggest one is the fact that MOST people cant afford college. You might say take out student loans, no one should have to pay off debt until they're 40 or 50 for a higher education.

This is my theory, if the minimum wage is raised the amount of people on welfare would decrease. In 35 U.S. states, welfare pays more than a minimum wage job. So you know its plenty of people sitting at home on their couch saying "Why work when I can make more at home doing nothing?"
With that being said, if the minimum wage is raised that might discourage people from sitting at home and collecting welfare. Also, what about 30-40 years ago? People were living off minimum wage and doing pretty good when inflation wasn't higher than the minimum wage.