Immigration

[EddietheZombie]

Do you think that Mexicans and some other ethnicities should be able to come over here without a visa? I think they should, after all this is the so called "Land of Second Chances" and all most of them want to do is make a better life. Why should we stop them?

[Harry Smith]

Why not? I mean America is pretty much a land of immigrants- you've got Italians, Irish and many more nationalities. It's stupid that certain groups feel they have more of a right to be their than someone based on the portion of rock they born on.

Also look at California and Texas- They were they both owned by Mexico in the 1700's so if anything they have more of a right to be their. The only group who have a reason to oppose immigration is Native Americans because when they allowed it the result was genocide

[tovaris]

I am for a world of conpletly free movment.

[Walter Powers]

Without a visa? Of course not! The whole point of a visa is so we know who's in the country and when they should leave. What's to stop them from overstaying their welcome?

Anybody who comes over without a visa, should be deported as it is ILLEGAL.


Why not? I mean America is pretty much a land of immigrants- you've got Italians, Irish and many more nationalities. It's stupid that certain groups feel they have more of a right to be their than someone based on the portion of rock they born on.

Also look at California and Texas- They were they both owned by Mexico in the 1700's so if anything they have more of a right to be their. The only group who have a reason to oppose immigration is Native Americans because when they allowed it the result was genocide

Who built Texas and California, as they stand? No, not the Mexicans; it was Americans! And guess what, somebody also owned that land before the Mexicans, if you want to go by that logic. Also, most of our illegalimmigrants aren't from Mexico, they are immigrants from countries to the south of it. You cannot make the argument that they are more entitled to that land then America!

[Harry Smith]

Without a visa? Of course not! The whole point of a visa is so we know who's in the country and when they should leave. What's to stop them from overstaying their welcome?

Anybody who comes over without a visa, should be deported as it is ILLEGAL.




Who built Texas and California, as they stand? No, not the Mexicans; it was Americans! And guess what, somebody also owned that land before the Mexicans, if you want to go by that logic. Also, most of our illegalimmigrants aren't from Mexico, they are immigrants from countries to the south of it. You cannot make the argument that they are more entitled to that land then America!

I was just pointing out the Irony in it, America is a country which is built on immigration and it seems stupid to oppose immigration as long as it's managed. This thread isn't about illegal immigration it's about immigration

[Walter Powers]

I was just pointing out the Irony in it, America is a country which is built on immigration and it seems stupid to oppose immigration as long as it's managed. This thread isn't about illegal immigration it's about immigration

I don't oppose immigration. I am completely for managed immigration of hardworking educated people who want to become patriotic Americans, like my ancestors. Those people are some of the best Americans there are.

The problem is the immigrants from the latin America generally can't be described that way, especially the ones whom the first thing they do here is break our law.

[Harry Smith]

I don't oppose immigration. I am completely for managed immigration of hardworking educated people who want to become patriotic Americans, like my ancestors. Those people are some of the best Americans there are.

The problem is the immigrants from the latin America generally can't be described that way, especially the ones whom the first thing they do here is break our law.

Well I liked that apart from the last two sentences which are a bit untrue- not all Latin Americans are law breakers, and not all immigrants are law breakers. The definition of patriotic also worries me- a democratic, a republican and a libertarian would all have very different definitions of that- we don't want to return to the days of Hoover and McCarthy

[Walter Powers]

Well I liked that apart from the last two sentences which are a bit untrue- not all Latin Americans are law breakers, and not all immigrants are law breakers. The definition of patriotic also worries me- a democratic, a republican and a libertarian would all have very different definitions of that- we don't want to return to the days of Hoover and McCarthy

The word "patriotic" worries you?
Patriotic - having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

There are patriotic Republicans. There are patriotic Democrats. And there are patriotic Libertarians. If you come to our sucessful country, but don't support it, that's freeloading. That's why our immigrants should be patriotic.
Give me a break!

You are over analyzing what I said, read it again. I never said not implied immigrants in general are law breakers. I just want the people who come to this country to put in more then they take away.

[Harry Smith]

The word "patriotic" worries you?
Patriotic - having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

There are patriotic Republicans. There are patriotic Democrats. And there are patriotic Libertarians. If you come to our sucessful country, but don't support it, that's freeloading. That's why our immigrants should be patriotic.
Give me a break!

You are over analyzing what I said, read it again. I never said not implied immigrants in general are law breakers. I just want the people who come to this country to put in more then they take away.

It does because it's often used to justify some sort of questionable behavouir, the John Birch Society call them-self patriots just as the Ku klux klan. I mean just look at the PATRIOT act- not exactly very great especially if you ask Brandon Mayfield.

Immigrants support a country by providing for the economy in labour, services and taxes. They shouldn't be rejected based on their political views

[Walter Powers]

It does because it's often used to justify some sort of questionable behavouir, the John Birch Society call them-self patriots just as the Ku klux klan. I mean just look at the PATRIOT act- not exactly very great especially if you ask Brandon Mayfield.

Immigrants support a country by providing for the economy in labour, services and taxes. They shouldn't be rejected based on their political views

Of course not. I never said that. Why do you have such a problem with the word "patriot"?

Should I not describe myself as intelligent because the raciests in the KKK thought they were intelligent, too?

[Harry Smith]

Of course not. I never said that. Why do you have such a problem with the word "patriot"?

Should I not describe myself as intelligent because the raciests in the KKK thought they were intelligent, too?

Not at all, I'm just sick of hearing that bloody buzzword to somehow deny immigrants access to the country.

[Southside]

I think the ones who work should all be given workers permits, a lot of those people who are jumping to border just come here to work. I don't believe they should be punished for that. A lot of people don't understand that a large amount of our agricultural workforce is made up of illegal immigrants. You just cant simply kick them all out, whos going to pick your strawberries and cantaloupe out in California?

Illegal immigrants are some of the hardest working people in this country.


Though, those people who come here to suck up welfare and commit crimes, send them right back to their native country.

[EddietheZombie]

Without a visa? Of course not! The whole point of a visa is so we know who's in the country and when they should leave. What's to stop them from overstaying their welcome?

Anybody who comes over without a visa, should be deported as it is ILLEGAL.




Who built Texas and California, as they stand? No, not the Mexicans; it was Americans! And guess what, somebody also owned that land before the Mexicans, if you want to go by that logic. Also, most of our illegalimmigrants aren't from Mexico, they are immigrants from countries to the south of it. You cannot make the argument that they are more entitled to that land then America!

Actually Mexicans are Mayan, Incan, and Aztec. So they were Native Americans before Cortez conquered them. Im Native American for one. And for two, i guess the immigrants and their descendants from England have way over stayed their welcome and "visas" here. And the waiting time for a Visa is roughly 1 to 2 years. Thats alot of time waiting in Mexico, Ireland, or anywhere else, while your family is hunger.

[Capto]

Actually Mexicans are ..., Incan, and ....

lolwut.

[Cygnus]

The problem is the immigrants from the latin America generally can't be described that way, especially the ones whom the first thing they do here is break our law.

Interesting stereotype you got there.

Latin american immigrants do way more good than you think, a lot of income comes from illegal workers, and Miami is basically carried by the Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants.

Latin americans have a great, bigger culture, why should they change that for gringo culture? Latin americans are way happier with their own lifestyle, let them be latin americans and not gringos if they so choose to.

[EddietheZombie]

lolwut.

Yes they count as Native Americans. Thats why there is North and South America. They have the same culture as alot of surrounding tribes.

[Capto]

Yes they count as Native Americans. Thats why there is North and South America. They have the same culture as alot of surrounding tribes.

I'm aware of that.

Just trying to comprehend what Mexico has to do with an antiquity-era Peruvian culture.

[Cygnus]

Yes they count as Native Americans. Thats why there is North and South America. They have the same culture as alot of surrounding tribes.

You said mexicans are Incans, which is wrong. That is why he said lolwut.

[EddietheZombie]

Yes they are, if i remember right, they are from either southern North America(Mexico) or the Mountains that are over by California(Rockys i believe.)

You said mexicans are Incans, which is wrong. That is why he said lolwut

I'm aware of that.

Just trying to comprehend what Mexico has to do with an antiquity-era Peruvian culture.

Because if they are native american, shouldnt they be able to travel lands that were stolen by America(Texas and California).

[Capto]

Yes they are, if i remember right, they are from either southern North America(Mexico) or the Mountains that are over by California(Rockys i believe.)


The Inca Empire stretched over modern-day Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and Chile, IIRC.

Note that all of these countries are South American.

[Cygnus]

The Inca Empire stretched over modern-day Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and Chile, IIRC.

Note that all of these countries are South American.

You have general culture, you have my respect.

[thatcountrykid]

Why not? I mean America is pretty much a land of immigrants- you've got Italians, Irish and many more nationalities. It's stupid that certain groups feel they have more of a right to be their than someone based on the portion of rock they born on.

Also look at California and Texas- They were they both owned by Mexico in the 1700's so if anything they have more of a right to be their. The only group who have a reason to oppose immigration is Native Americans because when they allowed it the result was genocide

Yes but we own them now! So far all that i have seen come to america by immigrants from the south is crime and ither troubles.

[EddietheZombie]

The Inca Empire stretched over modern-day Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and Chile, IIRC.

Note that all of these countries are South American.

I said they were native american, I didnt say they were native to North America. And they immegrated north after the wars with the spanish.

[Korashk]

It's a simple fact that all immigration provides a net economic benefit to American society. Plus, who are we to say where people can and can't live?

Without a visa? Of course not! The whole point of a visa is so we know who's in the country and when they should leave. What's to stop them from overstaying their welcome?
Overstaying their welcome? As if living in America is some sort of allowance? Are you serious?

Anybody who comes over without a visa, should be deported as it is ILLEGAL.
Blind adherence to the law is a bad thing. Laws should be respected because they're based on sound reasoning, not because they're laws.

Who built Texas and California, as they stand? No, not the Mexicans; it was Americans!
It was actually probably mostly Mexicans and descendants of Mexicans. Just because everybody living there when America acquired the land were technically American now means diddley squat.

And guess what, somebody also owned that land before the Mexicans, if you want to go by that logic.
Well no, that's wrong. The Mexican people are native to that area.

Also, most of our illegalimmigrants aren't from Mexico, they are immigrants from countries to the south of it. You cannot make the argument that they are more entitled to that land then America!
I'd make the argument that they are equally entitled to it. Who gives two shots if you were born in America. Without making an appeal to US law justify why that entitles you to live somewhere over anyone else.

I don't oppose immigration. I am completely for managed immigration of hardworking educated people who want to become patriotic Americans, like my ancestors. Those people are some of the best Americans there are.
You've just described most immigrants. Legal and illegal.

The problem is the immigrants from the latin America generally can't be described that way, especially the ones whom the first thing they do here is break our law.
Could you be a bit more racist please? I like a little bigotry with my midnight snack.

[Walter Powers]

Actually Mexicans are Mayan, Incan, and Aztec. So they were Native Americans before Cortez conquered them. Im Native American for one. And for two, i guess the immigrants and their descendants from England have way over stayed their welcome and "visas" here. And the waiting time for a Visa is roughly 1 to 2 years. Thats alot of time waiting in Mexico, Ireland, or anywhere else, while your family is hunger.

That doesn't give them the right to violate federal law. Ultimately, we cannot award people for breaking our laws. I'm totally for legal immigration, in fact I'm curious as to why none of the democrats are pushing to add more legal citizens. Instead they're focusing on getting the illegals on the voter rolls.


Interesting stereotype you got there.

Latin american immigrants do way more good than you think, a lot of income comes from illegal workers, and Miami is basically carried by the Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants.

Latin americans have a great, bigger culture, why should they change that for gringo culture? Latin americans are way happier with their own lifestyle, let them be latin americans and not gringos if they so choose to.

Firstly, don't insult my culture. Latin American culture is not "greater" then the United States. Give me a break. American culture has it's impact on virtually every corner of this planet, it IS the popular culture. You can't deny that.

Second, if they are happier with they're own lifestyle, why do they want to come to America?

If you want to be an American, you need to want to be an American. That includes immersing yourself in our culture. Just as if you want to become a Mexican, you should immerse yourself into Mexican culture. Why is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to be an American, don't become an American!

I admire the immigrants who come here and legally become Americans and live the "American Dream." They are some of the best Americans there are. I do not, however, have an respect for the illegals who, in escaping whatever land of lawlessness they come from, first action here is to break OUR laws. They bring with them exactly what they're trying to get away from.


It's a simple fact that all immigration provides a net economic benefit to American society. Plus, who are we to say where people can and can't live?


Overstaying their welcome? As if living in America is some sort of allowance? Are you serious?


Blind adherence to the law is a bad thing. Laws should be respected because they're based on sound reasoning, not because they're laws.


It was actually probably mostly Mexicans and descendants of Mexicans. Just because everybody living there when America acquired the land were technically American now means diddley squat.


Well no, that's wrong. The Mexican people are native to that area.


I'd make the argument that they are equally entitled to it. Who gives two shots if you were born in America. Without making an appeal to US law justify why that entitles you to live somewhere over anyone else.


You've just described most immigrants. Legal and illegal.


Could you be a bit more racist please? I like a little bigotry with my midnight snack.

Another clueless foreigner.

Let's start here:

It's a simple fact that all immigration provides a net economic benefit to American society

ALL immigration? Of course the immigration of talented people is a big plus; give us as many Indian engineers as we can get! Also, we do need a certain blue collar workforce, but that need is shrinking with outsourcing. Also, the fact is that we currently have millions of people who can't get work who can take any of those jobs, should they arise.

The National Academy of Sciences has estimated that the average immigrant without a high-school degree will, over the course of his or her lifetime, impose a net cost -- above and beyond any taxes he or she pays -- of nearly $100,000 on U.S. taxpayers; this cost does not include the cost of educating the immigrant’s children. Based on that figure, the estimated 6 million legal immigrants lacking a high-school diploma and residing in the U.S. today, will cost taxpayers more than a half trillion dollars over their lifetimes.

Plus, who are we to say where people can and can't live?

That's like saying "who are you to say who can live in your house?" We built this country, we decide who comes and who comes out. Just like every other nation on Earth. And that isn't a valid excuse to break federal law.

Overstaying their welcome? As if living in America is some sort of allowance? Are you serious?

Yes, after you receive a visa you have a limit as to how long you can stay here. If it expires and you're still here, you are in violation of federal law. That is how the federal government, which is currently dominated by the Democratic Party, has it set up. Just because you oppose that policy gives you no right to violate it. And again, we are like every other country in the world in that we do this.

Blind adherence to the law is a bad thing. Laws should be respected because they're based on sound reasoning, not because they're laws.

Dude, if the country went by that messed up logic very few people would ever pay their taxes. We elect politicians, and even if we don't like the result of what laws we put in, we need adhere to them. Lawlessness is a prime reason why developing countries are developing. If people only adhered to the laws and policies of the government they liked, it'd be chaos.

If a law is unconstitutional, we have a place for settling it: Supreme Court.

It was actually probably mostly Mexicans and descendants of Mexicans. Just because everybody living there when America acquired the land were technically American now means diddley squat.

Mexicans (or there ancestors) did not build Texas or California, as they stand. In fact, I'd be surprised if you could find a dozen structures in those states built that long ago.

I'd make the argument that they are equally entitled to it. Who gives two shots if you were born in America. Without making an appeal to US law justify why that entitles you to live somewhere over anyone else.

Do you not believe in property rights? Am I "entitled" to live in one of the mansions up on the hill?

You've just described most immigrants. Legal and illegal

Last I checked most illegals don't have high school diploma? You call that "educated"? Talk about low standards...

Could you be a bit more racist please? I like a little bigotry with my midnight snack.

What? It's not racism, it's the reality. As I said, I have the highest respect for anybody who legally becomes a citizen, but I have no respect for those who break our laws.

You live in Michigan. When was the last time you've been to the southwest US?

[EddietheZombie]

That doesn't give them the right to violate federal law. Ultimately, we cannot award people for breaking our laws. I'm totally for legal immigration, in fact I'm curious as to why none of the democrats are pushing to add more legal citizens. Instead they're focusing on getting the illegals on the voter rolls.


Well yours and some of my ancestors came here illegally. What makes it different now? People cant wait 2 years because their families are hungry. They want to make a better life for themselves, like some of our ancestors, so why should we stop them? As long as they are working and not selling drugs im ok with it.

[britishboy]

Well yours and some of my ancestors came here illegally. What makes it different now?



what do you mean?

[EddietheZombie]

what do you mean?

Im mostly Norwegian. All of those people came here without visas, so they were illegal. Some people here are of various white descent and their ancestors probably came here on the Mayflower or on any other ship without a visa. Whats the difference?

[britishboy]

Im mostly Native American, but im also Spanish, Irish, Scottish, Germain, French Canadian, and Norwegian. All of those people came here without visas, so they were illegal. Some people here are of various white descent and their ancestors probably came here on the Mayflower or on any other ship without a visa. Whats the difference?

firstly are you suggesting remove immigration?!

secondly yes the colonists was illegal immigrants but they founded your country, theyre not taking jobs and shooting people

[EddietheZombie]

firstly are you suggesting remove immigration?!

No, they are our neighbors, and we should treat them as such.

secondly yes the colonists was illegal immigrants but they founded your country, theyre not taking jobs and shooting people

No but they took land, and killed many of my people. Look up the "Battle of Sand Creek". General Custer raided a village, only with old men, women, and children in it, and killed them all. He had them beat to death with "The butt of a rifle or heel of a boot." to conserve ammo.

[britishboy]

No, they are our neighbors, and we should treat them as such.

the key word there is neighbors not citizens


No but they took land, and killed many of my people. Look up the "Battle of Washita". General Custer raided a village, only with old men, women, and children in it, and killed them all. He had them beat to death with "The butt of a rifle or heel of a boot." to conserve ammo.

I really dont care anyway what you guys did several hundred years ago is not related at all to today

-edited. -Emerald Dream

[EddietheZombie]

the key word there is neighbors not citizens



I really dont care anyway what you guys did several hundred years ago is not related at all to today

You are so lucky we have mods.... Yes it is because your and some of mine took land from others. And it was the Battle of Sand Creek that there was a massacre. WOMEN AND CHILDREN beaten to death. Let that sink in. What if it were a white town that was massacred. The shoe would be on the other foot then.

[britishboy]

You are so lucky we have mods....

why? im confused? do you want to have a rant at me? PM me

yes it is because your and some of mine took land from others. And it was the Battle of Sand Creek that there was a massacre. WOMEN AND CHILDREN beaten to death. Let that sink in. What if it were a white town that was massacred. The shoe would be on the other foot then.

so whats your point? you want the worlds only superpower to be given to Indians? they dont pay tax thats good enough!

I didn't say its a good thing I just said its not reinvent to our discussion and it dosent matter and loads of white towns have been massacred! but again its not relevant

[EddietheZombie]

why? im confused? do you want to have a rant at me? PM me

No because i dont want to risk a ban.

so whats your point? you want the worlds only superpower to be given to Indians? they dont pay tax thats good enough!

I didn't say its a good thing I just said its not reinvent to our discussion and it dosent matter and loads of white towns have been massacred! but again its not relevant

And we do pay tax for one. And the only reason a white town has been massacred was because land was taken away, soldiers attacked first, ect. No i dont want the worlds only superpower to be run by indians. I just dont want people blocking another race from coming here, even though their ancestors already did it. Its hypocritical.


Here is a quote from a congressional testimony of John S. Smith of the massacre.

I saw the bodies of those lying there cut all to pieces, worse mutilated than any I ever saw before; the women cut all to pieces ... With knives; scalped; their brains knocked out; children two or three months old; all ages lying there, from sucking infants up to warriors ... By whom were they mutilated? By the United States troops ...
—- John S. Smith, Congressional Testimony of Mr. John S. Smith, 1865

[britishboy]

[
And the only reason a white town has been massacred was because land was taken away, soldiers attacked first, ect. No i dont want the worlds only superpower to be run by indians. I just dont want people blocking another race from coming here, even though their ancestors already did it. Its hypocritical.

what white people did centuries ago is irrelevant!!

no one is blocked! you just have to be legal!

[EddietheZombie]

[

what white people did centuries ago is irrelevant!!

no one is blocked! you just have to be legal!

Its not irrelevant! Damn. They are our neighbors and friends, so why not? Whites were our friends until greed was brought in. And like i said it takes almost 2 YEARS to get a visa. Your family would starve by then. Id rather go in and make some money doing cunstruction and feed my family illegally than make them starve for 2 Years.

[britishboy]

Its not irrelevant! Damn. They are our neighbors and friends, so why not? Whites were our friends until greed was brought in. And like i said it takes almost 2 YEARS to get a visa. Your family would starve by then. Id rather go in and make some money doing cunstruction and feed my family illegally than make them starve for 2 Years.

because your economy is vulnerable as it is 1/5 on food stamps! more unskilled labor is not needed! America is not a charity!

oh and btw its not 2 years, I could easily visit America

[EddietheZombie]

because your economy is vulnerable as it is 1/5 on food stamps! more unskilled labor is not needed! America is not a charity!

oh and btw its not 2 years, I could easily visit America

Because you are white and the Mexicans are "Undesirables". Its sad really. And these people know what the hell theyre doing. Ive seen every race of man lounging around a work site when they should be working. Not Mexican though. Every one ive seen working their ass off. And the reason 1/5 are on foodstamps, is because the guy in office is a fuck up! My mom makes $1700 every paycheck, after taxes its barely $1100. After bills, food, gas, we barely have anything left. Ive had to pawn most of my $1000 dollar collection for gas money! But the matter is Immigration. Mexicans are people looking to make a better life for theirselves, like the whites to America(Thats why its relevant). To not allow them illegally would be hypocritical. I understand that we dont need anyone taking jobs away, but they still need a chance.

[Korashk]

Another clueless foreigner.
HAHA, you aren't special because you live in the South. Let's use Texas as an example. In 2005 it's estimated that illegal immigrants contributed $17 billion to the state economy and paid more in taxes than they received in state assistance. (http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf)

ALL immigration?
Yes. ALL immigration.

Also, the fact is that we currently have millions of people who can't get work who can take any of those jobs, should they arise.
Illegal immigrants (http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/left-and-right-agree-immigrants-don-t-take-american-jobs-20130322) basically don't compete (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/immigration-and-american-jobs/) with Americans for jobs. (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/)

The National Academy of Sciences has estimated that the average immigrant without a high-school degree will, over the course of his or her lifetime, impose a net cost -- above and beyond any taxes he or she pays -- of nearly $100,000 on U.S. taxpayers; this cost does not include the cost of educating the immigrant’s children. Based on that figure, the estimated 6 million legal immigrants lacking a high-school diploma and residing in the U.S. today, will cost taxpayers more than a half trillion dollars over their lifetimes.
The actual amount from the study (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=12) estimates that immigrants without high-school educations impose an approximately $13,000 cost to the government. You also failed to mention that it also estimates that immigrants WITH a high-school education contribute an average of $198,000; and that overall immigrants contribute more than they take on a federal level, whereas there are only a few specific areas where their net economic benefit is negative.

That's like saying "who are you to say who can live in your house?"
I bought or built my house, therefore I get to say who can and can not stay there. The government didn't buy or build America.

We built this country, we decide who comes and who comes out.
Oh really? The US government built the ENTIRE COUNTRY did they? I've been paying rent to the wrong person all these years. Yeah, right.

Nobody built America because America is just a label given to the area in-between two imaginary lines arbitrarily drawn on the ground.

Just like every other nation on Earth.
Everyone has just as much a right to live in any other nation as they do America.

And that isn't a valid excuse to break federal law.
I think it is.

Dude, if the country went by that messed up logic very few people would ever pay their taxes. We elect politicians, and even if we don't like the result of what laws we put in, we need adhere to them. Lawlessness is a prime reason why developing countries are developing. If people only adhered to the laws and policies of the government they liked, it'd be chaos.
I'm an anarchist. I don't want people to pay taxes or follow laws because they're laws.

Mexicans (or there ancestors) did not build Texas or California, as they stand. In fact, I'd be surprised if you could find a dozen structures in those states built that long ago.
I'd be surprised if you could find a singular building in Texas ever not built at least in part by a person of Hispanic descent.

Do you not believe in property rights? Am I "entitled" to live in one of the mansions up on the hill?
You are if you build it for yourself or buy it. However, according to the property theory on rights you aren't allowed to stop another person from building or buying the one next to yours. If you think property rights allow you to kick out your neighbor then I'm afraid you don't know what property rights are.

Last I checked most illegals don't have high school diploma? You call that "educated"? Talk about low standards...
Maybe not educated, but hardworking and patriotic most certainly apply. Plus, let's do a little math. Pew survey estimates that there are 1.1 million illegal children living in America. Let's shave that from the 11.1 million illegal immigrants to get an even 10 million. Now according to infographics I got from google, about 60% (it's not exactly 60%, but that makes the math easier) of illegal immigrants don't have a high-school education. That's 4 million that do and 6 million that don't.

With these numbers let's use the estimates from the study you mention earlier. -$13,000 for not having a diploma and +$198,000 for having one. Based on the adult population alone we have a net fiscal contribution of +714 billion dollars to the US economy over the course of those immigrant's lives.

That's not even factoring in the 1.1 million illegal children or the 4.3 million children that are legal but have illegal parents that could get educations. I'd do more math to find out their potential contribution, but I think I've made my point.

My population stats. (http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=886#9)

What? It's not racism, it's the reality.
You heard it here folks, most Hispanic immigrants in America are lazy and unpatriotic.

You live in Michigan. When was the last time you've been to the southwest US?
I go there all the time to visit family. Mostly in Arizona.

Now go ahead and dismiss everything I just said like the ignorant idiots on this forum always fucking do and continue to hold your objectively false, bigoted views.

[EddietheZombie]

HAHA, you aren't special because you live in the South. Let's use Texas as an example. In 2005 it's estimated that illegal immigrants contributed $17 billion to the state economy and paid more in taxes than they received in state assistance. (http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf)


Yes. ALL immigration.


Illegal immigrants (http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/left-and-right-agree-immigrants-don-t-take-american-jobs-20130322) basically don't compete (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/immigration-and-american-jobs/) with Americans for jobs. (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/)


The actual amount from the study (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=12) estimates that immigrants without high-school educations impose an approximately $13,000 cost to the government. You also failed to mention that it also estimates that immigrants WITH a high-school education contribute an average of $198,000; and that overall immigrants contribute more than they take on a federal level, whereas there are only a few specific areas where their net economic benefit is negative.


I bought or built my house, therefore I get to say who can and can not stay there. The government didn't buy or build America.


Oh really? The US government built the ENTIRE COUNTRY did they? I've been paying rent to the wrong person all these years. Yeah, right.

Nobody built America because America is just a label given to the area in-between two imaginary lines arbitrarily drawn on the ground.


Everyone has just as much a right to live in any other nation as they do America.


I think it is.


I'm an anarchist. I don't want people to pay taxes or follow laws because they're laws.


I'd be surprised if you could find a singular building in Texas ever not built at least in part by a person of Hispanic descent.


You are if you build it for yourself or buy it. However, according to the property theory on rights you aren't allowed to stop another person from building or buying the one next to yours. If you think property rights allow you to kick out your neighbor then I'm afraid you don't know what property rights are.


Maybe not educated, but hardworking and patriotic most certainly apply. Plus, let's do a little math. Pew survey estimates that there are 1.1 million illegal children living in America. Let's shave that from the 11.1 million illegal immigrants to get an even 10 million. Now according to infographics I got from google, about 60% (it's not exactly 60%, but that makes the math easier) of illegal immigrants don't have a high-school education. That's 4 million that do and 6 million that don't.

With these numbers let's use the estimates from the study you mention earlier. -$13,000 for not having a diploma and +$198,000 for having one. Based on the adult population alone we have a net fiscal contribution of +714 billion dollars to the US economy over the course of those immigrant's lives.

That's not even factoring in the 1.1 million illegal children or the 4.3 million children that are legal but have illegal parents that could get educations. I'd do more math to find out their potential contribution, but I think I've made my point.

My population stats. (http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=886#9)


You heard it here folks, most Hispanic immigrants in America are lazy and unpatriotic.


I go there all the time to visit family. Mostly in Arizona.

Now go ahead and dismiss everything I just said like the ignorant idiots on this forum always fucking do and continue to hold your objectively false, bigoted views.


^^^finally someone gets it.

[Harry Smith]

firstly are you suggesting remove immigration?!

secondly yes the colonists was illegal immigrants but they founded your country, theyre not taking jobs and shooting people

That's just plain wrong and shows how narrowed minded you are, immigrants do not take jobs and they don't shoot people. I believe that Newtown was done by an American.

the key word there is neighbors not citizens



I really dont care the Indians was a pain in the ass anyway what you guys did several hundred years ago is not related at all to today

The indians were maybe a pain in the ass because we landed in their country and pretty much killed all of them and continued to push them further back on the grounds of Racism. The treatment of the Indians amounts to genocide

[Capto]

I said they were native american, I didnt say they were native to North America. And they immegrated north after the wars with the spanish.

No. They didn't immigrate north. They couldn't, actually, at all.

[Cygnus]

Firstly, don't insult my culture. Latin American culture is not "greater" then the United States. Give me a break. American culture has it's impact on virtually every corner of this planet, it IS the popular culture. You can't deny that.

Second, if they are happier with they're own lifestyle, why do they want to come to America?

If you want to be an American, you need to want to be an American. That includes immersing yourself in our culture. Just as if you want to become a Mexican, you should immerse yourself into Mexican culture. Why is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to be an American, don't become an American!



First Latin American culture is 100 times greater than US "culture", second not all people immigrate to other countries to become nationals, I lived in the US and I had no desire to be one of those gringos. Latinos immigrate for work, they have no obligation to forget their awesome culture to become gringos. Third, I never said their lifestyle is great, their culture is. So they should keep it.

[britishboy]

First Latin American culture is 100 times greater than US "culture", second not all people immigrate to other countries to become nationals, I lived in the US and I had no desire to be one of those gringos. Latinos immigrate for work, they have no obligation to forget their awesome culture to become gringos. Third, I never said their lifestyle is great, their culture is. So they should keep it.

actually your wrong, you shouldnt be American if you dont have the passion and desire to be American!

[Capto]

Mexicans (or there ancestors) did not build Texas or California, as they stand. In fact, I'd be surprised if you could find a dozen structures in those states built that long ago.


I can find, in my area, about three dozen.

[Cygnus]

actually your wrong, you shouldnt be American if you dont have the passion and desire to be American!

That is what I am trying to say, maybe I didn't make myself clear.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Freaking nationalists. Stupid idiots. I'm sorry but it is the truth.

[britishboy]

Freaking nationalists. Stupid idiots. I'm sorry but it is the truth.

darn them keeping our countries going! everyone love to live off them though...

[Twilly F. Sniper]

darn them keeping our countries going! everyone love to live off them though...

Oh my freaking gosh. I'd love to point out the flaws in that belief but they are WAY too obvious.

[Harry Smith]

actually your wrong, you shouldnt be American if you dont have the passion and desire to be American!

That's just factually incorrect- if your born on American soil your American- it doesn't matter what country,flag or government you belong to. You can't censor the population Senator McCarthy

darn them keeping our countries going! everyone love to live off them though...

Nationalists keep are country going? How many seats do the BNP have?

[britishboy]

Oh my freaking gosh. I'd love to point out the flaws in that belief but they are WAY too obvious.

I donr like nationalists who think that theyre superior but theres no harm loving your country and how is it nationalist not to run your country like a charity?

That's just factually incorrect- if your born on American soil your American- it doesn't matter what country,flag or government you belong to. You can't censor the population Senator McCarthy



Nationalists keep are country going? How many seats do the BNP have?

[Harry Smith]

I donr like nationalists who think that theyre superior but theres no harm loving your country and how is it nationalist not to run your country like a charity?

There is actually harm in loving your country- I believe a lot of the SS loved Germany very dearly, so please don't pretend like nationalism doesn't have faults.

What the hell does a charity have to do with anything?

[Storm'sGame15]

I'm all for immigration BUT they must have visas. Free roam of this great country without a visa is illegal and stupid. They would be taking advantage if this country without a visa, immigration is what made this country so great but when the Europeans came most of them went through properly and became true citizens and actual helpers of this country. The best solution I think is to make the visa/citizenship program easier so that more people can legally cross the border, ,any Mexicans can't get into the country legally because its too hard, if it were easier than maybe it would be different in my opinion.

[britishboy]

There is actually harm in loving your country- I believe a lot of the SS loved Germany very dearly, so please don't pretend like nationalism doesn't have faults.

What the hell does a charity have to do with anything?

im not pretending at all, do you want to be lead by people that, love, care and want the best for your country?

[Twilly F. Sniper]

im not pretending at all, do you want to be lead by people that, love, care and want the best for your country?

YET AGAIN, point refutable. There are people not from for example the US that actually want the best for it???

[Harry Smith]

im not pretending at all, do you want to be lead by people that, love, care and want the best for your country?

I want to be lead by people who aren't obessed with their bloodlines, or where the workforce was born. It's rather silly to present this magical picture of all nationalists as being loving caring people who want what is best because I assure you Nick Griffin doesn't want was is best for Britain.

Someone can love Britain as much as possible- that doesn't make them fit for public office, anyone with a hint of knowledge knows that

[Twilly F. Sniper]

I want to be lead by people who aren't obessed with their bloodlines, or where the workforce was born. It's rather silly to present this magical picture of all nationalists as being loving caring people who want what is best because I assure you Nick Griffin doesn't want was is best for Britain.

Someone can love Britain as much as possible- that doesn't make them fit for public office, anyone with a hint of knowledge knows that

This is exactly why nationalism is TERRIBLE to a point. Some like and care for your country is alright. NATIONALISM IS NOT.

[Southside]

firstly are you suggesting remove immigration?!

secondly yes the colonists was illegal immigrants but they founded your country, theyre not taking jobs and shooting people

Sure the colonist werent shooting people? Last time I checked alot of the European colonist slaughtered the Native Americans from their native lands and enslaved them.

Illegal immigrants taking jobs? You act like these people coming in illegally are becoming teachers or engineers, they are doing the hard labor jobs that the average citizen wouldnt even think about doing.The average American doesnt work in the blistering sun in California or Florida picking strawberries and melon.

[EddietheZombie]

Sure the colonist werent shooting people? Last time I checked alot of the European colonist slaughtered the Native Americans from their native lands and enslaved them.

Illegal immigrants taking jobs? You act like these people coming in illegally are becoming teachers or engineers, they are doing the hard labor jobs that the average citizen wouldnt even think about doing.The average American doesnt work in the blistering sun in California or Florida picking strawberries and melon.

Exactly^. Thank you.

[EddietheZombie]

My main deal with immigration is, if they did it(Whether it was to America, to the Philippines, Mexico,) What makes it not acceptable now? The French went to the Philippines and Canada, the Spanish took Mexico, the English took America, ALL without Visas. They just want a better life. Just like what the colonists first wanted. So why stop them. And its been argued that "They can wait for the visa" or "Its no excuse for them to come here illegally". What if the shoe was on the other foot and your family was hungry? Are you going to wait the 2 years for a visa? I know i wouldnt. Everyone needs to see it from their point of view.

[Slippers]

There is nothing wrong with immigration into any country. I live in London, England, where immigration has flourished for years. The inherent problem with immigration is the volume of people who re-locate. For instance, in London the English are becoming a minority. Subsequently, new problems are arising that are not present within a mono-cultured society.

I recently travelled into the East-End of London, Whitechapel to be precise. I felt like a foreigner from another land. Thousands of Bangladesh immigrants have settled in the area, effectively colonising one section of our capital. The predominant religion is Islam, the primary language is Bangladeshi, the first language is Arabic. Therefore many of the indigenous cultural institutions are being displaced - pubs, shops, restaurants etc as a result of this influx.

When a single or a multi-culture of people dissipate the indigenous people it seeks to undermine the original culture and generate division, fear and ignorance from all sides.

Immigration can enrich a nation, but it needs to be controlled and limited.

[Walter Powers]

haha, you aren't special because you live in the south. Let's use texas as an example. in 2005 it's estimated that illegal immigrants contributed $17 billion to the state economy and paid more in taxes than they received in state assistance. (http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/undocumented.pdf)


yes. All immigration.


illegal immigrants (http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/left-and-right-agree-immigrants-don-t-take-american-jobs-20130322) basically don't compete (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/19/immigration-and-american-jobs/) with americans for jobs. (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/)


the actual amount from the study (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=12) estimates that immigrants without high-school educations impose an approximately $13,000 cost to the government. You also failed to mention that it also estimates that immigrants with a high-school education contribute an average of $198,000; and that overall immigrants contribute more than they take on a federal level, whereas there are only a few specific areas where their net economic benefit is negative.


I bought or built my house, therefore i get to say who can and can not stay there. The government didn't buy or build america.


Oh really? The us government built the entire country did they? I've been paying rent to the wrong person all these years. Yeah, right.

Nobody built america because america is just a label given to the area in-between two imaginary lines arbitrarily drawn on the ground.


Everyone has just as much a right to live in any other nation as they do america.


I think it is.


I'm an anarchist. I don't want people to pay taxes or follow laws because they're laws.


I'd be surprised if you could find a singular building in texas ever not built at least in part by a person of hispanic descent.


You are if you build it for yourself or buy it. However, according to the property theory on rights you aren't allowed to stop another person from building or buying the one next to yours. If you think property rights allow you to kick out your neighbor then i'm afraid you don't know what property rights are.


Maybe not educated, but hardworking and patriotic most certainly apply. Plus, let's do a little math. Pew survey estimates that there are 1.1 million illegal children living in america. Let's shave that from the 11.1 million illegal immigrants to get an even 10 million. Now according to infographics i got from google, about 60% (it's not exactly 60%, but that makes the math easier) of illegal immigrants don't have a high-school education. That's 4 million that do and 6 million that don't.

With these numbers let's use the estimates from the study you mention earlier. -$13,000 for not having a diploma and +$198,000 for having one. Based on the adult population alone we have a net fiscal contribution of +714 billion dollars to the us economy over the course of those immigrant's lives.

That's not even factoring in the 1.1 million illegal children or the 4.3 million children that are legal but have illegal parents that could get educations. I'd do more math to find out their potential contribution, but i think i've made my point.

my population stats. (http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?id=886#9)


you heard it here folks, most hispanic immigrants in america are lazy and unpatriotic.


I go there all the time to visit family. Mostly in arizona.

Now go ahead and dismiss everything i just said like the ignorant idiots on this forum always fucking do and continue to hold your objectively false, bigoted views.

I'm going to put aside everything else you said because I think this must be addressed as it is calling into question the reason for this debate:

Anarchist Alert!!!

Why in in the world do you support an ideology which revolves around chaos and lawlessness? WHY? I see no reason to debate this topic further with you as you obviously lack an understanding of what works and what doesn't. You really support anarchy? Where the people with the biggest guns rule the world? Are you crazy?

[Guillermo]

I'm going to put aside everything else you said because I think this must be addressed as it is calling into question the reason for this debate:

Anarchist Alert!!!

Why in in the world do you support an ideology which revolves around chaos and lawlessness? WHY? I see no reason to debate this topic further with you as you obviously lack an understanding of what works and what doesn't. You really support anarchy? Where the people with the biggest guns rule the world? Are you crazy?

This is why no one likes to have a debate with you. You always point out one little thing about a person's belief (e.g. communist, left leaning/liberal, anarchist) and then you let that get to you and then the debate is over. That's where your sense of bigotry comes from. Just because someone else does not have the same political ideologies as you do, you feel the need to point that out and get away from the debate at hand. I've seen it over and over in many threads that you have posted in.

I can't really speak on Korashk's actual behalf, but I can say this: he's very informed about laws and how they work. Maybe if you would actually look at the evidence at hand (that he has provided to you multiple times) then you would actually see that immigrants, both legal and illegal, do way more good being in America than bad. Maybe if you would get off of your imaginary pedestal and look further in, you would agree too. America has and always will be a country where immigrants (both legal and illegal) have built it and flourished in it - from great ancestors who first came here to other new ones that have just arrived. I mean, it's a shame that you can't seem to take cold, hard, unbiased evidence and accept it. But what can one expect from a bigot?

[Walter Powers]

This is why no one likes to have a debate with you. You always point out one little thing about a person's belief (e.g. communist, left leaning/liberal, anarchist) and then you let that get to you and then the debate is over. That's where your sense of bigotry comes from. Just because someone else does not have the same political ideologies as you do, you feel the need to point that out and get away from the debate at hand. I've seen it over and over in many threads that you have posted in.

I can't really speak on Korashk's actual behalf, but I can say this: he's very informed about laws and how they work. Maybe if you would actually look at the evidence at hand (that he has provided to you multiple times) then you would actually see that immigrants, both legal and illegal, do way more good being in America than bad. Maybe if you would get off of your imaginary pedestal and look further in, you would agree too. America has and always will be a country where immigrants (both legal and illegal) have built it and flourished in it - from great ancestors who first came here to other new ones that have just arrived. I mean, it's a shame that you can't seem to take cold, hard, unbiased evidence and accept it. But what can one expect from a bigot?

Okay, let's start here. I'm gonna address this in pieces.

This is why no one likes to have a debate with you. You always point out one little thing about a person's belief (e.g. communist, left leaning/liberal, anarchist) and then you let that get to you and then the debate is over. That's where your sense of bigotry comes from. Just because someone else does not have the same political ideologies as you do, you feel the need to point that out and get away from the debate at hand. I've seen it over and over in many threads that you have posted in.

The only people who I've plain stopped debating with are radicals of one brand or another; whether it be communists or in this case an anarchist. THOSE are the kind of people who totally ruin a debate; look at that gigantic "communism" thread. They keep on hanging on to the same bits of information, while others and myself keep presenting numerous different things that disprove there argument.

Sense of bigotry? I've been engaging in productive debate on here much more then you have. I don't just post "Your wrong" and yell at people, unless of course sometimes if they are a staunch radical, in which case it is completely justified. You think I'm going to talk to somebody who supports taking away every human right, or in this case letting the people with the biggest tanks rule the world? And if they're so stuck up in there views, it's a waste of both of our time to continue the debate. You know, I looked up the definition of the word "bigot."

"Bigot: a person who is or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance."

If I've said anything that came across as intolerant to anybody other then a radical I apologize, and if you could alert me of a thread where I did it I will apologize in that thread as well.

I mean, it's a shame that you can't seem to take cold, hard, unbiased evidence and accept it

I have looked at the evidence. And I have determined immigration is good, but breaking laws is not. I'm all for guest worker programs, and more visas, count me in. But I am not going to support lawbreaking.

[LouBerry]

*sigh. Immigration is great! Except for the fact that: These people are flooding in, and we're over populated enough.
They take up jobs that Americans need. I know that sounds harsh, but our unemployment is way too high for illegal immigrants to be taking over so many jobs.
It causes an inconvenience. I don't know much Spanish, and I shouldn't have to if I'm not interested to. A lot of schools/ colleges now require one or two Spanish credits, because it doesn't matter if you're wanting to work at Walmart, or as a doctor, if you can speak fluent Spanish, you'll get hired. So, someone who maybe isn't as credible as me, could easily beat me out for a job because they speak Spanish and I don't. That doesn't make sense.

I think we really need to crack down on illegal immigrants.

[Southside]

*sigh. Immigration is great! Except for the fact that: These people are flooding in, and we're over populated enough.
They take up jobs that Americans need. I know that sounds harsh, but our unemployment is way too high for illegal immigrants to be taking over so many jobs.
It causes an inconvenience. I don't know much Spanish, and I shouldn't have to if I'm not interested to. A lot of schools/ colleges now require one or two Spanish credits, because it doesn't matter if you're wanting to work at Walmart, or as a doctor, if you can speak fluent Spanish, you'll get hired. So, someone who maybe isn't as credible as me, could easily beat me out for a job because they speak Spanish and I don't. That doesn't make sense.

I think we really need to crack down on illegal immigrants.

I'm tired of seeing the "The illegals are taking our jobs" bullshit, you act like these Latin American illegal are becoming doctors and engineers when they come here.

They are working in the blistering sun out in California picking lettuce and strawberries, the average American isnt working in a farmfield picking produce. Those illegals do the work that we wouldnt even think twice about doing.

You said that it doesnt make sense that someone who knows Spanish could beat you out for a job, it does when you think about it. The Hispanic population is rapidly growing, so we are going to need more bilingual people in the workforce.

[Sugaree]

I'm going to put aside everything else you said because I think this must be addressed as it is calling into question the reason for this debate:

Anarchist Alert!!!

Why in in the world do you support an ideology which revolves around chaos and lawlessness? WHY? I see no reason to debate this topic further with you as you obviously lack an understanding of what works and what doesn't. You really support anarchy? Where the people with the biggest guns rule the world? Are you crazy?

>uses bold letters to point out the obvious

Yeah boss, keep doing the good work. I think this is why debates with you, namely this one, go awry. Just because he happens to have an anarchistic point of view doesn't discredit him at all. Let him have his piece of the pie.

[LouBerry]

I'm tired of seeing the "The illegals are taking our jobs" bullshit, you act like these Latin American illegal are becoming doctors and engineers when they come here.

They are working in the blistering sun out in California picking lettuce and strawberries, the average American isnt working in a farmfield picking produce. Those illegals do the work that we wouldnt even think twice about doing.

You said that it doesnt make sense that someone who knows Spanish could beat you out for a job, it does when you think about it. The Hispanic population is rapidly growing, so we are going to need more bilingual people in the workforce.

There are over 11 million illegal immigrants living in America right now. Every one of those families has to have a job. If not, then I guess they are like most of the Americans who just live off of government assistance. Either way, that is millions of jobs.

And, think about who you're arguing with. I'm from Arkansas, everyone here does those sort of jobs that you might, "never think twice about doing". We're farmers. Agriculture is sort of our thing. We know how to work out in the sun all day.

That being said, I really don't give a shit. I'm going to be an attorney, and my fiancé is going to teach Biology. We'll be just fine. But, it just comes down to what's overall better for our country, which would be less people, more jobs, and less time spent worrying over a bunch of people who shouldn't be here in the first place, and more time worrying about how to save our own damn people.

[Guillermo]

The only people who I've plain stopped debating with are radicals of one brand or another; whether it be communists or in this case an anarchist. THOSE are the kind of people who totally ruin a debate; look at that gigantic "communism" thread. They keep on hanging on to the same bits of information, while others and myself keep presenting numerous different things that disprove there argument.

Sense of bigotry? I've been engaging in productive debate on here much more then you have. I don't just post "Your wrong" and yell at people, unless of course sometimes if they are a staunch radical, in which case it is completely justified. You think I'm going to talk to somebody who supports taking away every human right, or in this case letting the people with the biggest tanks rule the world? And if they're so stuck up in there views, it's a waste of both of our time to continue the debate.

This "You think I'm going to talk to somebody" thing is what makes you sound like a bigot. He presented you facts about immigration and he only mentioned one thing about him being an anarchist. You conveniently didn't respond to his other points that didn't deal with anarchy. I'm not going to continue talking about things other than what this thread is about (immigration) because that actually does ruin threads on here. So, don't respond to his other points, fine. But I refuse to talk to you about anything other than immigration from this point on - because it's off topic.

I have looked at the evidence. And I have determined immigration is good, but breaking laws is not. I'm all for guest worker programs, and more visas, count me in. But I am not going to support lawbreaking.

But where are they? The guest worker programs, visas, etc. I believe in the right of free movement. If you lived in dirt poor living conditions and had literally no other option than to immigrate illegally to another country with many opportunities, wouldn't you? Even despite knowing that you would break a law. You see, this is why I think the very law that disallows immigrants to freely enter the U.S. is a direct violation of a human right - the right to freedom of movement. If you're so willing to talk about human rights and freedoms, then I don't see why you're not so willing to talk about allowing currently illegal immigrants (who do more good than harm) in to America under the premise that they have a right to move if they wish (or in most cases, if they are forced due to poor living conditions). Just because they are breaking a law. Now if we were giving advice to someone about whether or not they should do something that would break a law, then yeah, we'd discourage them. But this is a debate - no one is giving advice. So, the point that illegal immigration is "bad", simply because it's breaking a law is a poor point to make in a debate.

[Abyssal Echo]

[QUOTE=Walter Powers;2471178]Without a visa? Of course not! The whole point of a visa is so we know who's in the country and when they should leave. What's to stop them from overstaying their welcome?

Anybody who comes over without a visa, should be deported as it is ILLEGAL.

I agree with Walter Powers Illegals should be deported

[Korashk]

I'm going to put aside everything else you said because I think this must be addressed as it is calling into question the reason for this debate:

Anarchist Alert!!!

Why in in the world do you support an ideology which revolves around chaos and lawlessness? WHY? I see no reason to debate this topic further with you as you obviously lack an understanding of what works and what doesn't. You really support anarchy? Where the people with the biggest guns rule the world? Are you crazy?
Called it folks. Called it in the last sentence of the post he quoted. Focuses on one, inconsequential sentence while ignoring the sourced rebuttals. This is why I hate "debating" on most online forums.

What you're doing here is called ad hominem, which is the logical fallacy where you address your opponent personally and try to discredit instead of being a man and addressing what they're actually saying.

Like say I was gay and we were having an argument. You were arguing that smoking is healthy and I linked to stats about lung cancer and addiction, then you attempted to disprove me by saying that I can't be trusted because I'm a homosexual. That's what you're doing right now.

Plus this post just proves that you know absolutely nothing about anarchism as an ideology.

I'll also give another quip at the end of this post that you can solely respond to and ignore the actual content of. In contrary to your signature you're not logical most of the time and I doubt you actually support a free market, because if you did you'd be an anarchist like me.