Israel and Palestine conflict

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Yesterday, Isreal attackes the Gaza strip with helicoptors, bulldozers, tanks, and infantry. 17 Palestinians were killed. What should be done about this>? I really want opinions more than anything else. Is Isreal justified? If so, why? Shoud Israel keep to itself and not attack Palestine? if so, why? Should Palestine attack isreal in retaliation? I want your thoughts:) Here's a link to an article on the subject: here (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18874)

I personally think Isreal needs to stop attacking Palestine completely. It isn't doing any good, just leave the Palestinians alone!

[Maverick]

I would have to agree they need to stop attacking. Peace cannot be achieved with their tactic. As far as I'm concerned the US should stop sending money to Isreal and cut them off and once they are on their own they can reconsider their acts and deal with their own problems without our pro-Isreal backing.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

One serious problem is that Isreal has serious nuclear power, and any retaliation from Palestine may lead to nuclear threats/conflict. Its rediculous.... The US needs to recognise Isreal as the bully it is and break off relations.

[Doc.]

I don't really give a damn I mean come on, Iraq is one of the oldest nations in the world. I dates back to ancient Egypt, 4000 years old. They look at us as a little five year-old with a big ego. Do you listen and take orders from a five year olds? Of course not.

Islam dominates the middle east, at its height it went into Austria and France. In this height they where going to take out all of Christianity in one swift blow in an attack on the Vatican. However, he decided he would destroy the Hospitaller Knights of Malta first, eliminating the last thing that stood between him and the Pope. They where breathing down the Popes throat when Suleiman the Magnificent began the Great Siege of Malta.

To further enlighten how close they where I will quote Queen Elisabeth:

"If the Turks should prevail against the Isle of Malta, it is uncertain what further peril might follow to the rest of Christendom."

After five months of gruesome combat and a causality count of 30,000 on the side of the Ottoman Empire (Islamic Empire) alone. Suleiman retreated but vowed to return the next year with double the force and crush Christianity once and for all. He had the power and the resources to do it as well, however, he died that winter.

Then came the Industrial Age, Islam couldn't compete with the new technology and Islam and the Middle East became dominated for 200 years by Christianity and every square inch of the Middle East became a territory of France, Spain, England and other European Countries. Now to get to the point, after WWII England, France and the major players in Nationalism and colonization became quite weakened and the Middle East gained its independence once more. For 200 years they where humiliated by their loss, and prior to that the Blood soaked Crusades for the Holy Land left a great impact on the Islamic World.

I would be pissed off too, especially when we have the ever egotistic Americans who have only existed for a mere 200 years ordering them around.

Now to go on to why they are fighting amongst each other, in Islam and most monotheistic religions which predominantly developed from desert climates water is paradise. Look at the Koran, heaven is filled Gardens, what do you need for Gardens? Water! Who has water? Iraq! Iraq has two rivers running through it, and Egypt had the Nile river, though Egypt was safe from outside invasions due to there is only a small gap where invaders can get through (the Seval Peninsula) but if you look at Iraq, they have no safe guard.

Now these invaders who failed to conquer Iraq brought their own view on the Koran and Islam, hence different sects of Islam. They kill each other over it, now you say that's barbaric? Look at Europe! The different sects of Christianity slaughtered each other for instance the Thirty year war. And look at Ireland and England, Protestant and Catholic. They've killed each other for hundreds of years, so we're no different from them.

Which brings us back to the US and George Bush, we really have no right to rush in there and 'keep the peace' we are not the police. We're country who is so dominate on oil and the Middle East they could crush us in a moments notice. Like a baby depending on milk from its mother. He's so arrogant thinking he can go in there and stop a war that's been going on twenty times the age of the US. For 4000 years this has been going on in the Middle East, we can't stop it.

However, by supporting Israel we have brought the hatred of the Middle East upon us. The Jewish State of Israel is the number one enemy in the Middle East, by supporting them we've sealed our fate by making the Islamic world hate us. Oh! And guess who has all the oil... I'll give you a moment here... That's right! The Islamic World has a vice grip on the oil industry. So really, I just don't give a damn, let them kill each other for another 6,000 years.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Well, considering your Capitalism, wouldn't you care that this conflict is hurting your precious iol industry, and therefore hurting our precious Economy?

[Doc.]

True but I have better investments in mind other than the oil companies. Just wait until Atria Cooperation starts selling in China. 1.6 billion people that don't know the risks of smoking and are just waiting to get addicted. Much profit is waiting there, ironically enough, I got kicked out of school today for smoking. lol

[Bankai15]

There is not that much we can do to stop them, i mean they have been fighting each other for thousands of years and i dont think it will stop soon.

[Sugaree]

You know it's times like these that I really just have to say that I don't give a bloody fuck.

You know you can't settle all differences by fighting. It's just not right.

This endless war has done too much for me to even give a shit.

It's almost like Bush is like someone who can't get enough sex. He refuses to pull out!
We need to pull every single american out of that hell hole and get them home and figure out a better strategy and get back in the game. Of course we won't do that because Bush goes out and hides and cowers like a dog.

[Whisper]

It's almost like Bush is like someone who can't get enough sex. He refuses to pull out!
We need to pull every single American out of that hell hole and get them home and figure out a better strategy and get back in the game. Of course we won't do that because Bush goes out and hides and cowers like a dog.


I don't like bush
But you...are a retard

Pull out every single troop immediately?
run away cowering while leaving a HUGE power vacuum?
They'd win, they'd use that victory to rally more support and spread through out more countries in cells like a cancer then in just a few yrs time attack again

every single time they attack they get better
every single time they kill more and more people
personally
I think 9-11 was enough
a line was drawn
and I hope we defend it
ya
no thanks


Thousands of troops have died
billions of dollars have been spent
Countless countries are expending major resources on Afghanistan and Iraq right now if we are ever going to win its now or never
only a coward would demand we pull out immediately when the jobs not finished and let everything we've done let every solider who died all be in vain

Not to mention for NATO as an alliance its literally a make or brake mission



Oh and considering his poll ratings
considering his public image and all the criticism hes faced
the fact that he refuses to budge or give up means hes not a coward
Bush is MANY things
I personally don't like him
but hes not a coward

As far as the topic
I'm with Israel

[Doc.]

I agree with what you say but still, this is a war that will never end. They will always be fighting as long as there is religion. You can't end a war like this, if you eliminate one group of radicals, there will be more waiting to step up and take their place. Also, we can't stabilize Iraq no matter how hard we try. We might end up with something like Egypt a neo-democracy but if you look at Egypt there's a lot of political prisons there. Not only that but the religious battles will still be going on. Religion is too big of an influence to just go in guns blazing and try to stop them from fighting over it. Eventually, it will come down to how many people must be killed before one side gives up. They're view is that if they can kill just one person a day everyday, eventually one side will give up. And you know what? It works. That's right, Terrorism works and they know it! They read our papers, watch our news and they see the results. They see the ratings Bush is getting and the Americans perspective on the war. It also doesn't help that the bias of the mass media over dramatizes these things.

[madness]

see this argument can never really be won or lost, as a war which has been raging for so long would be impossible to fully understand and therefore it's impossible to make a fully informed and unbiased opinion.
'Mankind must put an end war, before war puts an end to mankind'
p.s i cant escape believing its a lack of understanding which causes war

[Bankai15]

You cant stop war, it is part of human nature. As long as thier are people in this world like hitler, stalin, saddam, Bush, many others who want violence to meet goals, everlasting peace sounds like a good idea but it will unlikely happen.

[byee]

*wading into the malestrom of Mid East politics, Sam reinforces the misperception *some* have of him of his grand ego*

One of the truly remarkable things about the Holy Land is the confluence of all three Great religions in an area about the size of your average WalMart parking lot. Even if you are not at all religious, there's something deeply moving about being in a place where all the Wise Men and Prophets are said to have been. And, to be in the presence of True Believers is something I believe everyone should expereince. If only the flights weren't so long.

I know I tend to look at things analytically, so I do with this subject, too.

Whenever powerful emotions are stirred, as they are in the Holy Land (I use the term out of respect for all 3 religions who have a stake in the region known as Israel), logic often suffers. I believe that's what's going on there, and why it is so difficult for these people, with such a shared and tortured history, to come to terms with eachother. They have had 5 millennia to do so! They are all acting out of intense emotion, instead of pragmatism.

One of the things that's apparent if you are lucky enough to have been to Israel and talk with a real Israeli and a real Palestinian (or, if you watch carefully on TV), are 2 things. The first, is that the 'average' citizen of both is exhausted by this conflict and yearns for peace. The other, is the lack of empathy each often has for the other. Until 'B'='A' (empathy catches up with yearnings), nothing will happen, IMNSHO.

It's easy doing arm chair analysis of a conflict a zillion miles from here, especially when we're bombarded with hideous images from both sides on a nightly basis. Cooler heads need to prevail. Until then, each side will use the tools at it's disposal. For the Palestinians, it's terror, and for the Israelis it's F-16's. Neither gets them what they want, because there's no military solution here. Bombs from both sides can never produce empathy.

Solution? I don't know, but it's not simple. Or, maybe it is. It IS the Holy Land, isn't it? Isn't it written that thou shall treat others as thou wishest? Maybe in their wisdom (or exhaustion) both sides will simultaneously elect leaders who put the needs of their people ahead of their own. That way, the real issues, the ones about security, diginity, prosperity, and peace can be addressed more directly.

Until then, we're all spinning in the snow.

[Sugaree]

I don't like bush
But you...are a retard

Oh yeah really mature Kodie. Are you comparing me to Bush?
Because if you are then you are really making a mistake. I will be nothing like that cowering dog.

[Doc.]

You cant stop war, it is part of human nature. As long as thier are people in this world like hitler, stalin, saddam, Bush, many others who want violence to meet goals, everlasting peace sounds like a good idea but it will unlikely happen.

Don't compare Bush to Hitler and Stalin unless you wanna back up your beliefs behind that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Whisper View Post
I don't like bush
But you...are a retard
Oh yeah really mature Kodie. Are you comparing me to Bush?
Because if you are then you are really making a mistake. I will be nothing like that cowering dog.

Uh.. no he's not a coward also I completely agree with Whisper when he said this (with the exception of the I don't like Bush part of the quote):

Oh and considering his poll ratings
considering his public image and all the criticism hes faced
the fact that he refuses to budge or give up means hes not a coward
Bush is MANY things
I personally don't like him
but hes not a coward

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Excuse me?!

Do any of you have any common sense?! Israel has tried so many times to have a peace treaty with those dumb fucks...and do you know how many times they refused, and continue fighting? Israel has every right to fight back....if they just stand there they'll be killed. And then those dumb terrorists will get their fucking wish... which is for Israel to be wiped off the map.

Imagine a map without Israel....that would be extremely sad. Use your brains, not your ass! Sorry, but when it comes to Israel, I'm ready to fight back.

If they pull out the troops, then it will give both the USA and Israel a bad name. Fight! Get rid of them. You want peace already? Then get rid of them, then there will be peace.

(Sorry for being so...yeh...)

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Do you ever follow the news? Palestinian MILITANTS OUTSIDE THE GOVERMENT have been firing rockets into Israel. Israel responds by attacking Palestinian civilians within Palestine! I see no peace attempts, I just see constant strikes into Palestine! There are NONE into Israel! Pay attention to the news once ina while, and maybe you'd know that Chay...

[goin to work]

you all exept fro kodie are just bickering hers what we do bomm the two countrys and then when they come back in 50 years thay won't be fighting anny more

and if it was'int for the oil we would have shut them up buy now and bommed the fuck out of them

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

A few things here

1) Bombing Israel isnt a option, they have nuclear weapns and would use them. Plus, they are our current ally

2) Bombing both countries into oblivion would kill millions of innocents, and would be a worldwide disaster

3) Israel and Palestine really dont have that much oil.

4) No civilised country in the world would ever "Bomb the fuck" out of anyone just because they are having small border incidents.

5) They would continue to fight even then, because of the religious motivation

6) Please spell check yourself

[goin to work]

ok um we have nukes to and um im sry im disgraphic i don't see the spellin erors

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Yeah, so, you want to start a nuclear war then and end the world?

Disgraphic isnt a word, and the last two words of your sentence are spelled like this: "spelling errors"

Lets just try to stay on topic here. Attacking Israel is in no way an option for us.

[Hyper]

Yeah, so, you want to start a nuclear war then and end the world?

Disgraphic isnt a word, and the last two words of your sentence are spelled like this: "spelling errors"

Lets just try to stay on topic here. Attacking Israel is in no way an option for us.

What he means is he has a ''illness'' so to speak, simply put he can't write correctly.. SO lay off..

But I do agree on no nukes, bombings etc..

What israel is doing ( atleast thats what it seems to me is ) systematically destroying their neighbours military/infrastructure whenever they get a chance they go in and do it.

Israel should be pressured, I think they know damn right that firing a nuke would lead to nuclear war so economic is the best course of action.. Since money makes the world go around..

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

What he means is he has a ''illness'' so to speak, simply put he can't write correctly.. SO lay off..


Oh, alright, why didnt anyone just say that then? Damn, now I feel like shit... err, Im glad you agree Israel should be pressured

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Don't you think Israel is pressured enough as it is? Like, they should just blow up that entire country....

I mean, if the Iran or Iraq (whoever the fuck it is right now) won't have peace with Israel, then they really shouldn't be around...I know that sounds harsh, but c'mon! Israel has been trying to make peace treaties, but these dumb fucks are too worried about destroying Israel....

[thesphinx]

Ok it really is not necessary to call them "dumb fucks",

Anyway, I think that Israel is starting a lot of these attacks and I think they need to stop first of all, and I definitely don't think that the Palestinians should retaliate.

[Whisper]

Don't you think Israel is pressured enough as it is? Like, they should just blow up that entire country....

I mean, if the Iran or Iraq (whoever the fuck it is right now) won't have peace with Israel, then they really shouldn't be around...I know that sounds harsh, but c'mon! Israel has been trying to make peace treaties, but these dumb fucks are too worried about destroying Israel....

You sound just like the extremists in the middle east
and the reason there is no peace

your idea of peace is KILL THEM ALL
umm
no

[Hyper]

You sound just like the extremists in the middle east
and the reason there is no peace

your idea of peace is KILL THEM ALL
umm
no

More like a brainwashed idiot.. ''or whoever it is'' lol sad how low someone can go..

[0=]

Israel doesn't fucking matter. Iran is a far more important country in the long run. That has to be the most ignorant thing I've heard for a while.

[Whisper]

Okay just smashing an opponent in a debate is a sign of being lazy and weak

This is supposed to be a civilized debate among peers
yes theres a few minor jabs here in good fun but to create a post for the flat out purpose of smashing someone is not cool

Look at the facts
Gather an opinion
present it and defend it

don't post just to bully
I don't like bullies
Thats not why this forum was created nor the site as a whole

[byee]

Do you ever follow the news? Palestinian MILITANTS OUTSIDE THE GOVERMENT have been firing rockets into Israel. Israel responds by attacking Palestinian civilians within Palestine! I see no peace attempts, I just see constant strikes into Palestine! There are NONE into Israel! Pay attention to the news once ina while, and maybe you'd know that Chay...


Since i've already waded (mistakenly!) into this mine field, let me continue. Again, there's something very different about reading about this blood letting in the papers or seeing those hideous images on TV, and actually seeing it first hand, and talking with both the Israelis and the Palestinanians (as I have). Humor me, here, Layne. Let's take a different perspective.

Let me ask you this: Take both sides for a moment. As a Palestianian, (or an elected official of the Palestinian people), name 5 things that you could do to facilitate peace with the Israelis. Don't talk about them (the Israelis), what they 'need' to do, it's unconditional.

Then, as an Israeli (or an elected official of the Israeli people), name 5 things that you could do to facilitate peace with the Palestinian people. Again, unconditionally.

It's really easy to fall into the Middle East trap whereby both sides place blame and point fingers, always at the other side. There's enough blame to go around, for sure. But, history (and those horrific images) show that it's a dead end. The only real way to achieve peace is for both sides to talk about the needs of the other side. And develop a plan to accomplish that.

So?

[goin to work]

and im not a brain washed idot and u all relize kill them all is the olny 100% effective way to stop the vilince but that will never happen becus boming for peace is lik fucking for veriginaty it is point less so i say we saction isral for what they did and make them pay literaly pay. then they will make pece becuse they are jews and jews don't give up money

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

IAMSAM, you make a good point. Both sides really are at fault, but what they really need to do is just sit down together, willing to forgive, and work out something that is beneficial to both sides. But then again, we are talking about Gaza and Hamas mostly, and the problem is Israel and the rest of the world doesn't negotiate with Hamas; the people in the Gaza strip will continue to suffer. And goin to work, sanctions against Israel are a decent idea, perhaps we could convince them to cut down on the violence. And Jews aren't stingy, thats just a stereotype. I know many Jews who dont care about money. Please try to stay away from racist generalizations.

[Hyper]

Since i've already waded (mistakenly!) into this mine field, let me continue. Again, there's something very different about reading about this blood letting in the papers or seeing those hideous images on TV, and actually seeing it first hand, and talking with both the Israelis and the Palestinanians (as I have). Humor me, here, Layne. Let's take a different perspective.

Let me ask you this: Take both sides for a moment. As a Palestianian, (or an elected official of the Palestinian people), name 5 things that you could do to facilitate peace with the Israelis. Don't talk about them (the Israelis), what they 'need' to do, it's unconditional.

Then, as an Israeli (or an elected official of the Israeli people), name 5 things that you could do to facilitate peace with the Palestinian people. Again, unconditionally.

It's really easy to fall into the Middle East trap whereby both sides place blame and point fingers, always at the other side. There's enough blame to go around, for sure. But, history (and those horrific images) show that it's a dead end. The only real way to achieve peace is for both sides to talk about the needs of the other side. And develop a plan to accomplish that.

So?

Yes obviously both sides are at fault

But all Israel is doing is giving the angry militants and terrorists more reason to hate them, and for every civilian that gets accidentally blown to shreds by shrapnel there is potentially another child who will hate Israel for the rest of his life and he may one day do the same thing, spill the blood of innocent bystanders.

And that in turn will create another child or sibling or whatever, who will hate the Palestinans for the rest of his life..

[byee]

You guys still aren't answering my question. Name 5 things each can do to promote peace.

Well?

[goin to work]

sakrew peace it don't work

[[[chickaroo92]]]

then they will make pece becuse they are jews and jews don't give up money

You did not just say that. ...you did not just say that. What are you? some little Neo-Nazi following in Hitler's footsteps?

Take back what you just said, thank-you very much for hurting me not only emotionally, but physically as well.

I happen to be Jewish, do you see me going to everyone and asking them for their money so that way I can have it all to myself? This has nothing.. NOTHING to do with only the Jews. It's everyone in Israel. If it was only the Jews, than they would say, we should wipe out all the Jews of Israel...instead of wiping out Israel off the map.

You know? I am sick and tired of having to hear on the news everyday what's happening in Israel. If those son of a bitches were using their brains instead of their cold hearted hearts and this asses, then non of this shit would happen. You want peace? Will listen up sweetie, it ain't gonna happen until those idiots agree to have a peace treaty, and go somewhere else. Israel has given up enough of their land for these assholes, and they're not going to give more. In fact, I don't know why they gave some in the first place. The terrorists and whoever else that fits in that catagory can stay put in Iraq, Iran, and anywhere else. They don't need to go to Israel, and steal Israel's land. They're greedy, cold-hearted bitches.

[goin to work]

calm the f down im an equal oppritunity offender i equaly offend every one ano no becuse all the jewis ppl i kno are rich and no gov wants to be sactioned

[[[chickaroo92]]]

calm the f down im an equal oppritunity offender i equaly offend every one ano no becuse all the jewis ppl i kno are rich and no gov wants to be sactioned
Did it ever occur to you, that all Jews aren't rich? And like...stick with the topic, and stop being so stereotypical.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Everyone, lets calm down. chay, Israel isn't a blameless little angel in this conflict, they are almost if not just as much at blame than Palestine. They aren't offering peace left and right, they are launching strikes into Gaza and Palestine! I haven't seen or heard anything about Israel offering peace, or Palestine offering peace. Both sides are to blame, not just Palestine. Please, lets try to keep it civil too. Even though goin to work made a stereotypical comment, it was based off of his experience with Jews, not a bias or racism. So please lay off. And Israel is rather obviously Jewish, they have Jewish settlers invading Palestinian territory and refusing to leave, and they have a STAR OF DAVID on their national flag! COME ON! A very large portion of this conflict is religion. Please, lets stick to the facts, be civil, and not bash other members:)

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Everyone, lets calm down. chay, Israel isn't a blameless little angel in this conflict, they are almost if not just as much at blame than Palestine. They aren't offering peace left and right, they are launching strikes into Gaza and Palestine! I haven't seen or heard anything about Israel offering peace, or Palestine offering peace. Both sides are to blame, not just Palestine. Please, lets try to keep it civil too. Even though goin to work made a stereotypical comment, it was based off of his experience with Jews, not a bias or racism. So please lay off. And Israel is rather obviously Jewish, they have Jewish settlers invading Palestinian territory and refusing to leave, and they have a STAR OF DAVID on their national flag! COME ON! A very large portion of this conflict is religion. Please, lets stick to the facts, be civil, and not bash other members:)
Obviously, there are certain people discussing in this debate, who isn't paying enough attention. The only reason why Israel is going to war, is because the Palestinans keep on threatening Israel.

What is Israel suppose to do? Just sit there and let themselves be blown up? or defend themselves?

[goin to work]

they got things do deffend them self with but they bolth neecd to calm down and act right

[0=]

Diplomatic efforts? The fighting has to stop, you can't just say they should defend themselves indefinitely.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Can you provide some proof from a reliable new source that shows Palestine expressly threatening Israel? It isn't all Palestine's fault, lets both try to look at this from both sides here. Israel has nuclear weapons, they are fine, they wont be blown up, they basically have immunity anyway. Palestine isn't crazy enough to end the world. Both sides are to blame

[[[chickaroo92]]]

Can you provide some proof from a reliable new source that shows Palestine expressly threatening Israel? It isn't all Palestine's fault, lets both try to look at this from both sides here. Israel has nuclear weapons, they are fine, they wont be blown up, they basically have immunity anyway. Palestine isn't crazy enough to end the world. Both sides are to blame
Obviously if they want Israel off the map, then obviously they would want the USA off the map, thenCanada...etc.

[0=]

I don't see this "obvious" connection. Please provide a logical argument instead of pulling some bullshit conclusions out of your ass.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

You going to provide an article chay? And you are leading us down a slippery slope fallacy here, just because they are having problems with Israel doesn't mean they will with all of Israels allies

[[[chickaroo92]]]

I don't see this "obvious" connection. Please provide a logical argument instead of pulling some bullshit conclusions out of your ass.
0= ... If Israel doesn't matter to you, then I'm guessing only Palestine does?

For a fact, if the US is obviously helping Israel, the theres like a 98% chance the Palestinans (or the terrorists?) will want to get rid of them too.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

yeah, 98%? Really, you are providing no proof at all for this. Either give some facts, or a philosopher who supports you, instead of just saying these things. This is for educated arguments, not random shit and assumptions. ANd when did 0= ever say he supported either side? now you're just pulling more assumptions and fallacies out of thin air.

[0=]

Neither of them really matter to me.

By your logic the United States not helping Israel solves the problem of the threat to the US, doesn't it?

[Whisper]

Personally I'm sick of the western world having to go around everywhere protecting everyone
it always blows up in our face and causes more trouble than good

maybe just maybe its time for the kiddies to fend for themselves
We fended for ourselves
we built our countries from the ground up
square one same place they started

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

it would be nice, but we really are too far gone there Whisper. Its impossible to be isolationist now...

[goin to work]

palastine could not do to the us lik they do to isral chay ur crazy we are 15 times the size of pilistine they don't want to fuck wit us we well blow them off the mapppppp come on be relistic

[[[chickaroo92]]]

yeah, 98%? Really, you are providing no proof at all for this. Either give some facts, or a philosopher who supports you, instead of just saying these things. This is for educated arguments, not random shit and assumptions. ANd when did 0= ever say he supported either side? now you're just pulling more assumptions and fallacies out of thin air.
Isn't debating based on one's opinion as well as fact? Or only fact?

0=, No? thats not it at all. As I mentioned before, If Palestine really wants Israel off the map, then obviously they would want to detroy the whole world, knowing that Israel will probably have allies.

going to work, are you crazy? Obviously if a bomb can detroy a large portion of Israel, think about all the bombs Palestine can use to blow up the USA. It's possible.

[0=]

Debating is based on one's interpretation of facts, not blind opinion.

Once again, please provide a logical argument for this instead of blind assumptions.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Debating is a mixture of the two, and you are only pulling things out of mid air, no facts.

And Palestine doesnt want to destroy the whole world jsut because they hate israel. Thats like saying because I hate one black person i must hate them all.

And goin to work has a apoint, Palestine really cant do anything directly to the US.

[goin to work]

palistine is a small country they are not going to distroy the world

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Once again, nice point. Palestine really isnt that dangerous to teh WORLD. The only real problem is for Israel, because, frankly, Palestine has decent relations with teh rest of the middle east.

[byee]

sakrew peace it don't work

calm the f down im an equal oppritunity offender i equaly offend every one ano no becuse all the jewis ppl i kno are rich and no gov wants to be sactioned

Listen, you're just a jerk.

Back on topic, will someone please answer my questions? Name 5 things each side can do unilaterally to promote peace.


What we've got here is exactly what the fundamentalists want form us. A continuation of the struggle forever. There's enough hatred and blame to go around, yes? Pointing fingers gets nowhere, not only in the Middle East ('God's crucible'), but maybe more importantly, it misses the opportunity for people to develop real critical judgement and problem solving skills. Let's stay with the program for a minute, OK? Can you name five things that each side can do? Your analysis/opinion/bigotry is irrelevant here. Answer the questions!

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Lets stay away from bashing here Sam.

And frankly, i cant come up with five things. I dont have enough knowledge, plus I havent spoken to anyone from either side. I cannot answer your questions Sam, sorry

And I highly doubt anyone else here can

[byee]

I'm never one to bash, Layne. You know that. Sometimes, honesty can feel harsh when one lacks the awareness to recognize when one is out of line and being provocative just to be provocative. The purpose of any disagreement isn't so much to 'hurt' the other side, but to effectively communicate a POV that otherwise might not be understood. I'm not seeing too much of that here.

If you (or anyone else) cannot name 5 things, if you are not 'up' on the conflict enough to do so, what are your arguments/opinions/positions based on? Most everlasting conflicts persist because of positions based on just emotion. Unfortunately, when emotion is the primary arbiter, logic often suffers. Without logic, there can be no resolution.

The bloodshed in that troubled region persists, i believe, because both sides lack a fundamental grasp of the facts, and are also unwilling to account for their own behavior (hence my question). For us to help, or to at least gain some perspective that's different from the antagonists, we have to do better. We have to try to appreciate the conflict from the perspective from the other side.

I'd suggest that the antagonists get those facts before continuing, because the last thing the region needs is yet another generation that bases it's opinions on faulty logic and emotion. There's enough of that from the last generations.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

I dont think we need to be experts on the subject to be able to have a sumewhat edicated debate about it. We can still have decent debates w/out knowing what you ask of us. Although it would certainly be useful if we were that educated, we certainly cant be expected to know everything about this topic.

[byee]

Layne, I'll assume you're joking when you misspell all those words around 'somewhat educated'.!

I'm not sure why it's unreasonable to expect people to have a fundamental grasp of the basic facts (esp. when it concerns something as volatile as Mid East politics and religion) before entering into an intelligent discussion. My question was meant to shift the debate away from the emotional and onto the factual. Sometimes, that's a bit more difficult, but there's nothing wrong with stretching the 'ol grey matter a bit. The name of the forum does, afterall, contain the word 'Wise'.

Think about the conflict over there, spend a few days reading about it (it sadly is in the papers daily), and talk with me about those 5 things. I think your perspective might change, and perhaps more importantly and a bit closer to home, you (and the others) might learn a valuable skill.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

If I had the time, trust me Sam, i gladly would. But sadly, I don't... I will stop posting here unless someone makes a ridiculous or fallacious argument. You have changed my mind about this somewhat, lol. Ta - Ta

[byee]

In other words, "shut up, Sam'. I get it, Layne!

Remember that we all have an obligation to do right, and that means being nice to eachother and repecting eachother. Not only in the Middle East.

*Offers Layne some hot cocoa*

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

lol, NO! You made me realise that most of this was rather pointless/stupid, and that I wont post uless someone else says something absolutely sickening.'

* accepts cocoa *

[Whisper]

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA&feature=related

http://ifamericansknew.org/

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Whisper, great posts, those statistics are one of the reasons I lean alot farther towards Palestine than Israel. This just enfuriates me!