The lack of Justification for Hunting (Sport and otherwise)

[Nellerin]

Hunting is one of those things that has been in-grained in Western culture (primarily the United States) for numerous years and while its roots are in hunting for food out of necessity, it has since become primarily for sport (whether you use the "food" afterwards or not.)

Deer

Out of all of the hunted animals, Deer have suffered the worst fate in being one of the most hunted animals. In the 1900's they were almost completely gone from North America due to over-hunting. Their population has since-rebounded due to more regulations being put in place on hunters and when they are allowed to hunt.

Overpopulation of these deer is completely man-made due to state regulations artificially keeping the populations high to justify the multi-billion dollar hunting industry. Hunting groups have actually reacted violently to biologist's stating that the US should massively bring down deer populations (a bad idea in my opinion as well but not for the same reason as the hunters) in order for the forest habitat to stay intact.

The fact that hunters negatively reacted to this plan shows that they have never actually been in it to help the ecosystem and curve overpopulation.

Pain and Suffering

Think about this:

The emotional level of a Deer is on the same level as a Human Child that is a few years old. Killing a Deer results in the same emotional trauma as killing a little kid would for the rest of the surrounding Deer community and family of the individual animal that has been killed.

http://www.animalintelligence.org/images/deerbunny2.jpg

Many hunters bring up the idea that "humans have done this for thousands of years in order to survive." This is actually far from true. The healthiest tribes of thousands of years ago had plant-centric diets and if an animal was killed it would only occur every few months or once a year as part of a ritual sacrifice. Even in those situations, the animal would be quickly killed and then hours of prayer for its Soul would come after its death as a way of saying sorry.

Unfortunately, we have grown up in a culture which promotes this idea of "animals are lesser beings that humans" but in many ways this is not true. Emotional connections felt between animals are as strong as the ones humans feel for the majority of their childhood.

Meat is no longer a necessary component of diet

Yes, many people have an undue assumption that eating meat is necessary for good health, but this is incredibly inaccurate. Looking at the healthiest people in the World, which are located in the scarce remaining tribes of central Africa and the majority of the Himalayan groups around India and Tibet, you see that none of these people ever eat meat.

Eating meat causes the calcification of the Pineal Gland resulting in a "dull" way of thinking and also inhibits any sort of Spirituality in the vast majority of people. The way that these animals are now fed is also dangerous to our health since they are fed either corn or a meat mixture of dead animals including cats (yes many animal shelters dispose of the animals in this way), pigs, cows, etc.



Overall, I do not want to continue on too long with the post and inhibit all of you from reading it, but I think it is worth thinking about for all of us.

[Professional Russian]

Dude I've killed like 10-11 deer. I would bet a millions dollars though that I couldn't kill a child.

[Gigablue]

Dude I've killed like 10-11 deer. I would bet a millions dollars though that I couldn't kill a child.

I think you missed the point. The point is that when you kill a deer, you cause significant emotional pain to the other members of its group. This is comparable to the pain that would be felt by a family if you killed one of their children. If you wouldn't kill a child, how can you justify killing the deer?

[Walter Powers]

Are you a vegetarian? Just curious.

[Nellerin]

Are you a vegetarian? Just curious.

Nope just ate some chicken for lunch. Currently making the transition to Vegan however since there is no health benefit to eating meat (in fact it hurts the body.)

But I grew up eating meat so it has taken a while for me to change.

[jayjay's toocool]

I think hunting's fine

[Sugaree]

Hunting is one of those things that has been in-grained in Western culture (primarily the United States) for numerous years and while its roots are in hunting for food out of necessity, it has since become primarily for sport (whether you use the "food" afterwards or not.)

Deer

Out of all of the hunted animals, Deer have suffered the worst fate in being one of the most hunted animals. In the 1900's they were almost completely gone from North America due to over-hunting. Their population has since-rebounded due to more regulations being put in place on hunters and when they are allowed to hunt.

Overpopulation of these deer is completely man-made due to state regulations artificially keeping the populations high to justify the multi-billion dollar hunting industry. Hunting groups have actually reacted violently to biologist's stating that the US should massively bring down deer populations (a bad idea in my opinion as well but not for the same reason as the hunters) in order for the forest habitat to stay intact.

The fact that hunters negatively reacted to this plan shows that they have never actually been in it to help the ecosystem and curve overpopulation.

Pain and Suffering

Think about this:

The emotional level of a Deer is on the same level as a Human Child that is a few years old. Killing a Deer results in the same emotional trauma as killing a little kid would for the rest of the surrounding Deer community and family of the individual animal that has been killed.

image (http://www.animalintelligence.org/images/deerbunny2.jpg)

Many hunters bring up the idea that "humans have done this for thousands of years in order to survive." This is actually far from true. The healthiest tribes of thousands of years ago had plant-centric diets and if an animal was killed it would only occur every few months or once a year as part of a ritual sacrifice. Even in those situations, the animal would be quickly killed and then hours of prayer for its Soul would come after its death as a way of saying sorry.

Unfortunately, we have grown up in a culture which promotes this idea of "animals are lesser beings that humans" but in many ways this is not true. Emotional connections felt between animals are as strong as the ones humans feel for the majority of their childhood.

Meat is no longer a necessary component of diet

Yes, many people have an undue assumption that eating meat is necessary for good health, but this is incredibly inaccurate. Looking at the healthiest people in the World, which are located in the scarce remaining tribes of central Africa and the majority of the Himalayan groups around India and Tibet, you see that none of these people ever eat meat.

Eating meat causes the calcification of the Pineal Gland resulting in a "dull" way of thinking and also inhibits any sort of Spirituality in the vast majority of people. The way that these animals are now fed is also dangerous to our health since they are fed either corn or a meat mixture of dead animals including cats (yes many animal shelters dispose of the animals in this way), pigs, cows, etc.



Overall, I do not want to continue on too long with the post and inhibit all of you from reading it, but I think it is worth thinking about for all of us.

ITT: Whiny kid who has never hunted in his life tries to explain hunting to those of us who HAVE hunted.

[Walter Powers]

I think you missed the point. The point is that when you kill a deer, you cause significant emotional pain to the other members of its group. This is comparable to the pain that would be felt by a family if you killed one of their children. If you wouldn't kill a child, how can you justify killing the deer?

You equate the life an feeling a a deer to that of a human?

[Sephtyan]

First, meat isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Meat doesn't 'harm' the body any more than it helps. Meat tastes pretty freakin' good, has a lot of protein, and tastes pretty freakin' good. Sure, that's probably not a complete enough description of meat's benefits to give a physician or nutritionist joy, but it's all I care about.

On the topic of emotional pain felt by animals, that's undeniable. Sure, animals feel pain and suffer when one of their own is killed... but so what?

For the purpose of easing my views into what can be called a "normal" society; I'm going to use humans and human emotions as an example, you can substitute human for deer yourself.

There's no doubt that a human will feel grief if you kill a loved one. But in reality, all that the pain is is bio-electricity that's being routed to different parts of the brain. Certain chemicals are released, and yadda yadda yadda. Say that you're murdered today, and your mother grieves over your dead body. Eventually, she'll die too, right? Just time doing it's thing? She'll stop caring because she'll be dead.
On a long enough time scale, everyone's life expectancy drops to zero. Everyone dies eventually, and then who'll care? Three lifetimes from now, who is going to care if you're dead?

In the end, it all comes down to chemistry: Ashes to ashes, and dust to dust. In however many billion or trillion years, the Sun will blow out or expand or implode, however it's going to die, and the Earth will lose orbit. Whoop-dee-fuckin'-doo. I can't care about the end of the world, because I'm not going to be there. I can't care about 20 years ago, because I wasn't there.

Long story short, hunting is pretty neutral. You take a particular structure of metal and wood and plastic, point it in a certain direction, pull on something called a trigger which releases a firing pin the pops the cap on a little cushion of explosive powder. The expanding powder explosion pushes a metal slug at supersonic speeds out of the long hollow end of the metal-plastic-wood thing, and it may hit a conglomeration of meat and bone, or it may not. So what?

[Professional Russian]

I think you missed the point. The point is that when you kill a deer, you cause significant emotional pain to the other members of its group. This is comparable to the pain that would be felt by a family if you killed one of their children. If you wouldn't kill a child, how can you justify killing the deer?

Justify killing the deer? My freezer is almost empty. There's my justification.

[Nellerin]

First, meat isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Meat doesn't 'harm' the body any more than it helps. Meat tastes pretty freakin' good, has a lot of protein, and tastes pretty freakin' good. Sure, that's probably not a complete enough description of meat's benefits to give a physician or nutritionist joy, but it's all I care about.

On the topic of emotional pain felt by animals, that's undeniable. Sure, animals feel pain and suffer when one of their own is killed... but so what?


Since the main thing that prevents us from killing kids is the fact that it causes emotional trauma and suffering, why is it ok to inflict that upon animals especially for fun...

And who cares about something tasting good when it is linked to heart disease, thyroid issues, most of the meat nowadays is contaminated, TMAO (produced by digesting meat) causes hardening of arteries, hormones present in current meat supplies wreck the body.

Sources:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/13/just-how-unhealthy-is-that-steak-the-deadly-dangers-of-eating-red-meat/
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/6493:the-scary-danger-of-meat-even-for-those-who-dont-eat-it
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-07/national/38353911_1_gut-bacteria-carnitine-red-meat
http://dherbs.com/news/4804/4669/The-Dangers-of-Eating-Meat/d,ai.html#.UdjlW_nvvL8
http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/dangers-of-meat-consumption

You equate the life an feeling a a deer to that of a human?

Of course, it is proven that they "feel" and are just as conscious as a young child. Therefore they are one and the same.

Most people do not realize that and therefore are ok with killing deer, but once you know that they are actually just like a little kid in every way, it's almost impossible to justify killing deer especially for fun..

Please do not double post in debates. -StoppingTime

[Walter Powers]

Of course, it is proven that they "feel" and are just as conscious as a young child. Therefore they are one and the same.

Most people do not realize that and therefore are ok with killing deer, but once you know that they are actually just like a little kid in every way, it's almost impossible to justify killing deer especially for fun..

So if there was if you were driving on the road and you either have to hit a child or a deer, you would have trouble deciding? What in the world?

[Nellerin]

So if there was if you were driving on the road and you either have to hit a child or a deer, you would have trouble deciding? What in the world?

No I would do everything to avoid hitting either, and if in some weird scenario there were no option but to kill one of them, I would kill the Deer.

No option in that scenario results in something good but I would save a human first because they are currently in a life that they can grow up and attain higher states of consciousness unlike the deer which is stuck being an animal.

Best case scenario, not one living thing dies. I do not even kill insects, I take them whether it be a spider, ant, etc. And then open up my front door and let them go outside.

There is no reason to unnecessarily kill something that has millions or billions of active neurons which allow them to feel emotion.

[Walter Powers]

No I would do everything to avoid hitting either, and if in some weird scenario there were no option but to kill one of them, I would kill the Deer.

No option in that scenario results in something good but I would save a human first because they are currently in a life that they can grow up and attain higher states of consciousness unlike the deer which is stuck being an animal.

Best case scenario, not one living thing dies. I do not even kill insects, I take them whether it be a spider, ant, etc. And then open up my front door and let them go outside.

There is no reason to unnecessarily kill something that has millions or billions of active neurons which allow them to feel emotion.

So you don't equate a child's life with the life of a deer, then? Because I agree that children can feel more then deer, as would their loved ones if something were to happen to them.

We are ominovores. That means we eat both meat and vegetables. If somebody wants to do without one or the other, I don't care. But I like the taste of a good steak. Plus, it's not like I can eat much vegetarian stuff anyways, because I'm allergic to nuts. But let's go by the logic you are using. If I'm just as important as a cow, if I die from an allergic reaction from vegetarian food, the net loss of life will be zero, because the cow I would have eaten would be saved.

[Nellerin]

So you don't equate a child's life with the life of a deer, then? Because I agree that children can feel more then deer, as would their loved ones if something were to happen to them.

We are ominovores. That means we eat both meat and vegetables. If somebody wants to do without one or the other, I don't care. But I like the taste of a good steak. Plus, it's not like I can eat much vegetarian stuff anyways, because I'm allergic to nuts. But let's go by the logic you are using. If I'm just as important as a cow, if I die from an allergic reaction from vegetarian food the net loss of life will be zero.

There is no net loss, that is the thing, there is no "us and them" when it comes to humans and animals.

We came from animals and evolved WITH them. We are animals at our core and we share the exact same life force which brings about consciousness (Dimethyltryptamine.)

Just because we are capable of partially digesting different things does not make it best for our bodies. Please explain how the healthiest people in World never or almost never eat meat.

"In the West African village of Ntui, both colon cancer and other bowel disorders are rare. One key reason is that the villagers’ diet is high in fiber and low in meat, the most protective eating plan. A recent study by the World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research reported that if we ate more fiber—and less red meat—more than 64,000 cases of cancer cases would be prevented each year...

West African villagers, like Icelanders, also eat fermented foods, which provide “good” bacteria (probiotics) that improve bowel health and improve immune system functioning. Fermented foods in the African diet include relishes, pickled foods, fermented corn and millet, and yogurt."

Not much meat in there :yes:

While many super healthy cultures eat meat, it is very very scarce and is only included as a side dish at most and is never the main meal due to its lack of nutritional value.

[Walter Powers]

There is no net loss, that is the thing, there is no "us and them" when it comes to humans and animals.

We came from animals and evolved WITH them. We are animals at our core and we share the exact same life force which brings about consciousness (Dimethyltryptamine.)

Just because we are capable of partially digesting different things does not make it best for our bodies. Please explain how the healthiest people in World never or almost never eat meat.

"In the West African village of Ntui, both colon cancer and other bowel disorders are rare. One key reason is that the villagers’ diet is high in fiber and low in meat, the most protective eating plan. A recent study by the World Cancer Research Fund and American Institute for Cancer Research reported that if we ate more fiber—and less red meat—more than 64,000 cases of cancer cases would be prevented each year...

West African villagers, like Icelanders, also eat fermented foods, which provide “good” bacteria (probiotics) that improve bowel health and improve immune system functioning. Fermented foods in the African diet include relishes, pickled foods, fermented corn and millet, and yogurt."

Not much meat in there :yes:

While many super healthy cultures eat meat, it is very very scarce and is only included as a side dish at most and is never the main meal due to its lack of nutritional value.

I'll just tell you that it'd be VERY hard to sell this thing to the nut allergic demographic. Most salad dressings at resturants have nuts in them :( What vegetarian things could I eat?

[Nellerin]

I'll just tell you that it'd be VERY hard to sell this thing to the nut allergic demographic. Most salad dressings at resturants have nuts in them :( What vegetarian things could I eat?

It's already laid out for you, a Soy free and Nut free meal plan for Vegans :yes: So no it is not VERY hard.

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2011issue1/2011_issue1_soy_nut_free.php

[Walter Powers]

It's already laid out for you, a Soy free and Nut free meal plan for Vegans :yes: So no it is not VERY hard.

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2011issue1/2011_issue1_soy_nut_free.php

Umm, NO. I'm not eating that 365 days a years. And ordering at restaurants would be hell. You can do it if you want :)

[Sugaree]

Of course, it is proven that they "feel" and are just as conscious as a young child. Therefore they are one and the same.

I think you need to step back a few steps and realize what you just said. You're equating a young human child to a FUCKING DEER. All animals are curious by nature you dolt, even humans. Do you realize how full of shit you are right now?

[Nellerin]

Umm, NO. I'm not eating that 365 days a years. And ordering at restaurants would be hell. You can do it if you want :)

You said it would be hard, I showed you that it is not. And there are hundreds of other foods than just the ones there for Vegans.

I think you need to step back a few steps and realize what you just said. You're equating a young human child to a FUCKING DEER. All animals are curious by nature you dolt, even humans. Do you realize how full of shit you are right now?

Yes they are curious and they exhibit love and consciousness. How am I full of shit. Other than insulting me, you did nothing to negate my points.

[StoppingTime]

Yes they are curious and they exhibit love and consciousness. How am I full of shit. Other than insulting me, you did nothing to negate my points.

Because it makes no sense to say that a deer is on the same level of consciousness and value as a human child.

[Nellerin]

Because it makes no sense to say that a deer is on the same level of consciousness and value as a human child.

Deer have the ability to be more conscious than a human child with autism, therefore you feel that the thing with less consciousness is justifiably killed...

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

http://www.grandin.com/references/animal.consciousness.html (from Colorado State University)

I guess if it "makes no sense" then you are simply not at that level of intelligence yet, which is ok. Eventually maybe it will make sense.

[Jess]

I personally see nothing wrong with hunting for food - as long as it's done legally. I would never give up on meat - it's too good and I like it too much. I do love animals though and personally would never go on a hunt, but I don't mind other people hunting (as long as it's in season or whatnot) for food.

[Origami]

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

BREAKING NEWS - No one will take you seriously from here on out thanks to your random and incorrect assumptions.

Credibility of user "sfsethfitz": nill.

[DerBear]

I don't mind killing a deer,

EBL0q707fAg

In my eyes its food.

[Nellerin]

BREAKING NEWS - No one will take you seriously from here on out thanks to your random and incorrect assumptions.

Credibility of user "sfsethfitz": nill.

Fine I am not credible, but this is: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201208/scientists-finally-conclude-nonhuman-animals-are-conscious-beings

Cambridge Scientists officially decided that Animals are conscious beings "Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors"

Therefore, if I am not credible, I sure do post a lot of correct information for a person without credibility.

[Origami]

Fine I am not credible, but this is: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201208/scientists-finally-conclude-nonhuman-animals-are-conscious-beings

Cambridge Scientists officially decided that Animals are conscious beings "Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors"

Therefore, if I am not credible, I sure do post a lot of correct information for a person without credibility.

It doesn't take a Cambridge scientist to notice that animals have conscious emotions. You can witness this any day if you have pets.

But as far as any information you might supply us, so long as you make outlandish accusations like you did against Steven, no one will take you seriously.

I have nothing against hunters. I enjoy deer meat. By your logic I'd support the killing of children and consumption of their flesh. Which is false. Do yourself a favor next time and try not to hurt your own argument with stupid remarks. Until I saw that, I was planning on making a legitimate response to this thread.

[Nellerin]

It doesn't take a Cambridge scientist to notice that animals have conscious emotions. You can witness this any day if you have pets.

But as far as any information you might supply us, so long as you make outlandish accusations like you did against Steven, no one will take you seriously.

I have nothing against hunters. I enjoy deer meat. By your logic I'd support the killing of children and consumption of their flesh. Which is false. Do yourself a favor next time and try not to hurt your own argument with stupid remarks. Until I saw that, I was planning on making a legitimate response to this thread.

No I did not make legitimate claims against him since I know he would not kill autistic kids. I made the statement to show how his ideas made no sense since Animals are actually more conscious than humans depending on the situation.

And if they are conscious just like humans, then why can we kill them? Makes no sense right?

I'm not saying that you support killing humans automatically because a lot of people are fine with killing one animal but not another kind of animal. In the end all things that are living humans or animals are conscious and should be treated in the same way.

[Origami]

No I did not make legitimate claims against him since I know he would not kill autistic kids. I made the statement to show how his ideas made no sense since Animals are actually more conscious than humans depending on the situation.

And if they are conscious just like humans, then why can we kill them? Makes no sense right?

I'm not saying that you support killing humans automatically because a lot of people are fine with killing one animal but not another kind of animal. In the end all things that are living humans or animals are conscious and should be treated in the same way.

It does make sense to kill them. Nature kills for it's best interest. My health is in my best interest and deer meat is one of the most healthy meats to consume. It is incredibly high in iron and protein while being superbly low in saturated fats.

I don't approve of mindless slaughtering of deer for no gain. But if the prey is cooked/consumed by the hunter and/or sold to someone who will, then I don't really care. I make sure to include deer meat in my meals as often as possible.

[StoppingTime]

And if they are conscious just like humans, then why can we kill them? Makes no sense right?

Because the level of consciousness is different. Yes they are aware of their surroundings, yes they can make some decisions. They cannot, however, understand consequences of actions, make complex decisions, etc.. as humans can. Deer aren't on the same level of humans.


I'm not saying that you support killing humans automatically

Actually you did say that to me. And I'm okay with it because all it did was embarrass yourself and tell people not to take a thing you say seriously.


because a lot of people are fine with killing one animal but not another kind of animal. In the end all things that are living humans or animals are conscious and should be treated in the same way.


Animals ≠ humans. They are both conscious, but the levels of this are entirely different.

[Nellerin]

It does make sense to kill them. Nature kills for it's best interest. My health is in my best interest and deer meat is one of the most healthy meats to consume. It is incredibly high in iron and protein while being superbly low in saturated fats.

I don't approve of mindless slaughtering of deer for no gain. But if the prey is cooked/consumed by the hunter and/or sold to someone who will, then I don't really care. I make sure to include deer meat in my meals as often as possible.

Well unfortunately for you, eating meat is actually not the healthiest way to live and the healthiest people in the world either never eat meat or eat extremely small amounts or pork or fish.

Because the level of consciousness is different. Yes they are aware of their surroundings, yes they can make some decisions. They cannot, however, understand consequences of actions, make complex decisions, etc.. as humans can. Deer aren't on the same level of humans.



Actually you did say that to me. And I'm okay with it because all it did was embarrass yourself and tell people not to take a thing you say seriously.




Animals ≠ humans. They are both conscious, but the levels of this are entirely different.

And yes they are on the same level as humans, deer can indeed make complex decisions and make them depending on what they believe the outcome is.

They even produce the same "spirit molecule" (DMT) which is responsible for extremely advanced spiritual levels of consciousness.

[Origami]

Well unfortunately for you, eating meat is actually not the healthiest way to live and the healthiest people in the world either never eat meat or eat extremely small amounts or pork or fish.

Eating meat is the most efficient way to obtain protein, a vital part to a healthy diet. Which was the whole point of me pointing out it's protein benefits. Most of the negative aspects of meat can be worked off anyway with proper exercise. There is no real drawback to the consumption of meat so long as you actually live a healthy lifestyle.

[Nellerin]

Eating meat is the most efficient way to obtain protein, a vital part to a healthy diet. Which was the whole point of me pointing out it's protein benefits. Most of the negative aspects of meat can be worked off anyway with proper exercise. There is no real drawback to the consumption of meat so long as you actually live a healthy lifestyle.

Proof? There is none, sorry.

In terms of overall health, it has been proven that Hemp Seed protein is actually the best source of protein for the body with the best overall profile and digestibility.

Combine that with Tofu and Lentils, and the protein intake amount and profile is far stronger and more beneficial than any meat.

[World Eater]

I don't hunt. But after watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoMXovAuCKA I want to.

[Origami]

Proof? There is none, sorry.

In terms of overall health, it has been proven that Hemp Seed protein is actually the best source of protein for the body with the best overall profile and digestibility.

Combine that with Tofu and Lentils, and the protein intake amount and profile is far stronger and more beneficial than any meat.

I'll give in to that. I'll openly admit I wasn't aware of Hemp Seed benefits (although I will be researching it myself).

[Nellerin]

I'll give in to that. I'll openly admit I wasn't aware of Hemp Seed benefits (although I will be researching it myself).

Ya the benefits are pretty outstanding,

"* All 20 amino acids, including the 9 essential amino acids (EAAs) our bodies cannot produce.
* A high protein percentage of the simple proteins that strengthen immunity and fend off toxins.
* Eating hemp seeds in any form could aid, if not heal, people suffering from immune deficiency diseases. This conclusion is supported by the fact that hemp seed has been used to treat nutritional deficiencies brought on by tuberculosis, a severe nutrition blocking disease that causes the body to waste away.3
* Nature’s highest botanical source of essential fatty acid, with more essential fatty acid than flax or any other nut or seed oil.
* A perfect 3:1 ratio of Omega-6 Linoleic Acid and Omega-3 Linolenic Acid – for cardiovascular health and general strengthening of the immune system.
* A superior vegetarian source of protein considered easily digestible.
* A rich source of phytonutrients, the disease-protective element of plants with benefits protecting your immunity, bloodstream, tissues, cells, skin, organs and mitochondria.
* The richest known source of polyunsaturated essential fatty acids."

The actual protein amount is not amazingly high so I recommend anyone using Hemp Protein should take Onnit's protein power or bars for higher protein amounts which will easily get you to you daily intake suggestions.

https://www.onnit.com/hemp-force/

[DerBear]

I'll chip my two cents in since my last post was more of a troll post. Anyway I feel hunting is perfectly reasonable if it aids in the human survival and meat products such as deer is an important meat in our food chain. So I have no problems with hunting as long as it has a cause.

[Rayquaza]

Well unfortunately for you, eating meat is actually not the healthiest way to live and the healthiest people in the world either never eat meat or eat extremely small amounts or pork or fish.

Excuse me, where is your certificate to show that you're a nutritionist? I'll have you know that evolution determined humans to feed off of meat and vegetation. And healthiest people in the world wouldn't? Class A bullcrap mate. You have no proof, no sources, you're just posting what you think seems logical to you, when it's not.

[Professional Russian]

I don't hunt. But after watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoMXovAuCKA I want to.

How the hell did that make you want to go hunting. I admit it was funny as hell. But it didn't get me anymore excited for deer season.

[World Eater]

How the hell did that make you want to go hunting. I admit it was funny as hell. But it didn't get me anymore excited for deer season.

I was joking :P

[Harry Smith]

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

Well done, you've lost the argument

[Professional Russian]

Deer have the ability to be more conscious than a human child with autism, therefore you feel that the thing with less consciousness is justifiably killed...

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

http://www.grandin.com/references/animal.consciousness.html (from Colorado State University)

I guess if it "makes no sense" then you are simply not at that level of intelligence yet, which is ok. Eventually maybe it will make sense. that level of intelligence. What the fuck is that level of intelligence. Are you implying we aren't as smart as you because we don't agree with you?

[Nellerin]

Excuse me, where is your certificate to show that you're a nutritionist? I'll have you know that evolution determined humans to feed off of meat and vegetation. And healthiest people in the world wouldn't? Class A bullcrap mate. You have no proof, no sources, you're just posting what you think seems logical to you, when it's not.

Are you mentally disabled, look at my posts, I have numerous sources showing you guys what I claim to be true. Eating large amounts of meat is never the healthiest way to live, and the healthiest people in the world do in fact have very small quantities (only a fraction of American eaters) of meat.

When it comes to Deer, the healthiest people in the world have never even heard of it, much less eat it. The two healthiest types of meat that actually are even somewhat worth having are Pork and Fish (which we can see by looking at the diet and relative health of people in Japan.)

Tribes in Africa which have less disease and live longer normally have either no meat or they will have Fish (if near the water) or Rabbit (which they consume rarely and as a small side dish.)

[Sugaree]

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

BREAKING NEWS - You're still full of shit.

[Nellerin]

BREAKING NEWS - You're still full of shit.

In what way? Other than making a joke and expanding upon what StoppingTime seemed to think (no, not in a serious manner [he was ignorant before] but in a joking manner) what have I done to suggest that I am full of shit.

I made the statement because StoppingTime seemed to think that because something had less consciousness that it was OK for it to be killed. Well, I replied showing that there was evidence and research to support that people with Autism have potentially less consciousness than a non-Human Animal.

Therefore in that situation the Person with Autism is "below" a non-Human Animal. Now, of course, that is not something I believe. But it is an expansion of the justification that StoppingTime was using.

[Rayquaza]

Are you mentally disabled, look at my posts, I have numerous sources showing you guys what I claim to be true. Eating large amounts of meat is never the healthiest way to live, and the healthiest people in the world do in fact have very small quantities (only a fraction of American eaters) of meat.

"Are you mentally disabled?"

On a teen help forum where people probably do have mental disorders, not to mention practically my entire family. You sir, are an abominably parasitic dolt, and I'll be damned if I see you using personal offensive remarks to people that do actually have problems. Congratulations on making yourself look like a fool.

I never said humans should eat large amounts, so why don't you hush up and read twice over what I said.

When it comes to Deer, the healthiest people in the world have never even heard of it

Well then they're probably quite stupid people. Such as yourself.

Tribes in Africa which have less disease and live longer normally have either no meat or they will have Fish (if near the water) or Rabbit (which they consume rarely and as a small side dish.)

u wot m8?
Are you actually kidding me. LOL.

Of course they eat meat! THEY LIVE IN TRIBES, THEY ARE KNOWN TO HUNT. Are you a complete moron? I am literally laughing my head off at this. "Small side dish" you have literally got to be kidding. The fact that they're alive says something. It's because they hunt animals which is why they can live for so long and not get torn to pieces by a bear or a massive animal. Wow, I'll give you kudos for your bravery, I didn't think you would go as far as to give such preposterous crap as backup for your argument and make everyone believe it.

[Harry Smith]

In what way? Other than making a joke and expanding upon what StoppingTime seemed to think (no, not in a serious manner [he was ignorant before] but in a joking manner) what have I done to suggest that I am full of shit.

I made the statement because StoppingTime seemed to think that because something had less consciousness that it was OK for it to be killed. Well, I replied showing that there was evidence and research to support that people with Autism have potentially less consciousness than a non-Human Animal.

Therefore in that situation the Person with Autism is "below" a non-Human Animal. Now, of course, that is not something I believe. But it is an expansion of the justification that StoppingTime was using.

This is just a load of hot air. You made a stupid assumption, at least accept this, please?

[Camazotz]

I agree with OP- hunting for sport (killing deer and other animals for "pride" and for decorations/ornaments) is barbaric and unnecessary. It's a waste of time, money, and resources (unless there's an overpopulation problem). It's gross, and I don't see the appeal in hunting defenseless animals and taking pride in killing something that couldn't fight back. If hunters killed deer with their bare hands and hung a deer head on their wall, I'd think that's pretty manly. But using guns or bows to kill them? Lame.

However, if the hunted deer will be consumed, then I don't really see a problem. (I think) most hunters use at least part of the deer for food, which is fine since I'm also okay with eating animals. I have to agree with OP that meat isn't the healthiest way to obtain protein and other vitamins and minerals, but I definitely don't think we have to force all people to become vegetarian/vegan. So if you choose to eat meat, and want to eat deer, I think hunting for that reason is fine. But hunting for the sole purpose of killing animals without using the body for food is a violent outlet that shouldn't be a part of a "civilized" society.

As for the deer=people debate, I'd say that although deer aren't as valued in our society as people, I still wouldn't condone going out of your way (not for food) to murder a defenseless animal, regardless of its species. That's how serial killers start.

Edit: Other than OP, no one is giving any evidence to support their counter-arguments. Tweety, for example, should look up the diets of the longest-living tribes around the world. For the most part, OP is correct in saying that they eat smaller meals comprised of mostly vegetation. I think you're just assuming the African stereotype of hunters, rather than look up modern Eastern tribes as well. And it's not just Tweety, everyone (including OP) has stooped down to name-calling and attacking what each other has said.

[Rayquaza]

Tweety, for example, should look up the diets of the longest-living tribes around the world. For the most part, OP is correct in saying that they eat smaller meals comprised of mostly vegetation.

All I did was search Meat in African Tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people#Diet)

Perhaps it's changed since when I was taught Geography 3 years ago. But we did a whole unit on African tribes, Hunting and their diet was covered, and it was a meat diet and vegetation diet. It is nothing to what the op said, "as a side dish".

And linking back to the op, Hunting is a traditional male hobby. Although they may not eat it, I did say they were known to hunt. And I was correct. (http://www.gateway-africa.com/tribe/suku_tribe.html)

[Nellerin]

"Are you mentally disabled?"

On a teen help forum where people probably do have mental disorders, not to mention practically my entire family. You sir, are an abominably parasitic dolt, and I'll be damned if I see you using personal offensive remarks to people that do actually have problems. Congratulations on making yourself look like a fool.

I never said humans should eat large amounts, so why don't you hush up and read twice over what I said.



Well then they're probably quite stupid people. Such as yourself.



u wot m8?
Are you actually kidding me. LOL.

Of course they eat meat! THEY LIVE IN TRIBES, THEY ARE KNOWN TO HUNT. Are you a complete moron? I am literally laughing my head off at this. "Small side dish" you have literally got to be kidding. The fact that they're alive says something. It's because they hunt animals which is why they can live for so long and not get torn to pieces by a bear or a massive animal. Wow, I'll give you kudos for your bravery, I didn't think you would go as far as to give such preposterous crap as backup for your argument and make everyone believe it.

Have you ever read what their diet entails or do you think every tribe is identical:

This is their diet:

Fibre:
Traditional African communities consumed high-fibre whole starches, such as sorghum, millet, teff, corn, plantain, and brown rice. Miller proposes that insoluble fibre from grains acts like a scouring pad thoroughly cleansing intestines. She also suggests eating fibre containing foods such as beans, avocado, greens, okra, sweet potato and peanuts.
Fermented foods:
Miller found that traditionally prepared items such as cultured sour milk, pickled foods, fermented corn, manioc and millet, even home brewed beer, are rich sources of probiotics lending to good digestion.
Foraged foods:
Africans utilize a variety of high nutrient foraged foods, such as wild greens and bitter leaf. The B vitamin folate in these foods is said to block reproduction within cancer cells.
Select fats:
Africans often eat high levels of omega-3 fats from fish, wild game, greens, nuts and seeds. Miller also discovered that antioxidant rich peanut and palm fruit oils are used sparingly. Traditional cooking methods rarely call for deep frying – being costly, wasteful, and nutritionally damaging.
Less flesh:
Miller noticed that animal products were rare among locals. When meat was eaten, it was whatever wild game happened to be caught in the bush: porcupine, boar, antelope, boa constrictor, bush monkey, etc. Chicken, goat, and fish were also traditionally eaten. These meats are usually enjoyed in moderation, often as a flavouring agent in vegetable-grain stew. Miller equates less flesh consumption with less cancer

Having it a few times a month is beneficial because meat has good stuff in it, but eating it like people do in the USA with meat being the core of every meal is completely bad. And even eating a lot of it, is bad.

I agree with OP- hunting for sport (killing deer and other animals for "pride" and for decorations/ornaments) is barbaric and unnecessary. It's a waste of time, money, and resources (unless there's an overpopulation problem). It's gross, and I don't see the appeal in hunting defenseless animals and taking pride in killing something that couldn't fight back. If hunters killed deer with their bare hands and hung a deer head on their wall, I'd think that's pretty manly. But using guns or bows to kill them? Lame.

However, if the hunted deer will be consumed, then I don't really see a problem. (I think) most hunters use at least part of the deer for food, which is fine since I'm also okay with eating animals. I have to agree with OP that meat isn't the healthiest way to obtain protein and other vitamins and minerals, but I definitely don't think we have to force all people to become vegetarian/vegan. So if you choose to eat meat, and want to eat deer, I think hunting for that reason is fine. But hunting for the sole purpose of killing animals without using the body for food is a violent outlet that shouldn't be a part of a "civilized" society.

As for the deer=people debate, I'd say that although deer aren't as valued in our society as people, I still wouldn't condone going out of your way (not for food) to murder a defenseless animal, regardless of its species. That's how serial killers start.

Edit: Other than OP, no one is giving any evidence to support their counter-arguments. Tweety, for example, should look up the diets of the longest-living tribes around the world. For the most part, OP is correct in saying that they eat smaller meals comprised of mostly vegetation. I think you're just assuming the African stereotype of hunters, rather than look up modern Eastern tribes as well. And it's not just Tweety, everyone (including OP) has stooped down to name-calling and attacking what each other has said.

Thanks... I would like to make it clear that I am OK with people eating animals just like I have mentioned every time with the reference to the African Tribes.

However, the entire concept of "Trophy Hunting" or "Sport Hunting" is indeed rediciculous, and I do not think there is a counter arguement for that.

As far as eating meat. It should be far less than most Americans do, and we need to make sure that the Animal is treated correctly instead of being pumped full of steroids, not grass fed, not free range (the opposite of most American food.)

In that situation, when people are eating meat less frequently, then yes, I would actually prefer to see someone hunt their own meat (HUMANELY) and not as a frequent activity. At least in that way, none of the body is wasted and we know that it was treated in the right way.

However there is a billion dollar industry around "sport hunting" and that IS an issue.


-double post merged. -Emerald Dream

[Rayquaza]

but eating it like people do in the USA with meat being the core of every meal is completely bad. And even eating a lot of it, is bad.

Where's your proof that people in the USA eat like you're saying they do? Surely you're just generalising a stereotype.

[Nellerin]

Where's your proof that people in the USA eat like you're saying they do? Surely you're just generalising a stereotype.

Adult obesity rates are around 34% and that is the 5th/6th highest in the World, and the highest in the current civilized or "modern" countries.

"Meat intake varies widely throughout the world. In the U.S. and other developed countries, meat composes a significant portion of the normal diet, contributing more than 15% to daily energy intake, 40% to daily protein intake, and 20% to daily fat intake(The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control1–The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control3). The demand for meat in developing countries continues to grow as the production and consumption of meat increases with available income(The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control4, The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control5). A shift toward a dietary pattern characterized by high meat consumption also appears to supplant the consumption of cereals and other foods of plant origin(The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control1, The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control6, The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control7)."

"According to NHANES 2003–2004, total meat intake averaged 128 g/day."

[Human]

I don't see anything wrong with functional hunting for food or resources, people have hunted for thousands of years and is it really up to our lovely safe culture to decide whether it's natural or not?
Hunting's wrong for most people though, because it isn't the same and is much worse than having battery chickens kept indoors for years and then slaughtered to end up on your plate, because the magical butcher fairies do that for you so you keep a clean conscience.

[Emerald Dream]

Having it a few times a month is beneficial because meat has good stuff in it, but eating it like people do in the USA with meat being the core of every meal is completely bad. And even eating a lot of it, is bad.

Whether this is true or not is completely irrelevant. It's not going too far out on a limb to say that most of the meat consumed in the USA is either chicken or beef, neither of which is hunted. Please don't use things to try and boost your argument that are off-topic. It makes you look sillier than you already have in this thread (comparing the consciousness of a deer to an autistic child).

[Nellerin]

I don't see anything wrong with functional hunting for food or resources, people have hunted for thousands of years and is it really up to our lovely safe culture to decide whether it's natural or not?
Hunting's wrong for most people though, because it isn't the same and is much worse than having battery chickens kept indoors for years and then slaughtered to end up on your plate, because the magical butcher fairies do that for you so you keep a clean conscience.

Like I mentioned a few posts ago, hunting only for food (less often) is OK but eating meat is almost the worst thing to do in America nowadays because it is becoming increasingly hard to find non-Commercial meat products, and these current meat products are very far from the things that our Ancestors ate.

In theory the best way to live is to live in a Community that owns a few sheep, cows, and chickens and then has a large Garden. This forces people to eat in a sustainable way and guarantees that the quality of the food is actually high enough for consumption.

[Nellerin]

Whether this is true or not is completely irrelevant. It's not going too far out on a limb to say that most of the meat consumed in the USA is either chicken or beef, neither of which is hunted. Please don't use things to try and boost your argument that are off-topic. It makes you look sillier than you already have in this thread (comparing the consciousness of a deer to an autistic child).

How is it silly to compare those things when I literally quoted a University Scientist and Professor that HAS AUTISM and wrote a long article comparing how his consciousness is no more than that of an Animal.

You think that is bad. The dude HAS AUTISM and I quoted him because it is something that multiple people in the Psychology community have been bringing up recently.

[Emerald Dream]

How is it silly to compare those things when I literally quoted a University Scientist and Professor that HAS AUTISM and wrote a long article comparing how his consciousness is no more than that of an Animal.

You think that is bad. The dude HAS AUTISM and I quoted him because it is something that multiple people in the Psychology community have been bringing up recently.

Here's a little hint for debating -

When you can fill in a blank with just about anything in the world...then you can't really make an argument out of it. Case in point:

"___________________ has more consciousness than an autistic child."

Now, you can pretty much fill in the blank with anything you want (as insulting as it may be, though) and there's a great possibility that it is true.

Deer, snake, ant...whatever animal you want. Fill in the blank. Doesn't do much for proving a point. Therefore, it's not really an argument that you can use.

Oh, and I noticed that you didn't try to argue my actual point. Probably because you can't.

[Human]

Like I mentioned a few posts ago, hunting only for food (less often) is OK but eating meat is almost the worst thing to do in America nowadays because it is becoming increasingly hard to find non-Commercial meat products, and these current meat products are very far from the things that our Ancestors ate.

In theory the best way to live is to live in a Community that owns a few sheep, cows, and chickens and then has a large Garden. This forces people to eat in a sustainable way and guarantees that the quality of the food is actually high enough for consumption.

I actually agree that we should do Subsistence farming, where you grow and breed for yourself and families. I don't think that the meat we get from supermarkets is good for you at all. When you hunt you don't get the pink sludge of random animal offal mixed together with added e numbers so it's obviously better :D

[Nellerin]

Here's a little hint for debating -

When you can fill in a blank with just about anything in the world...then you can't really make an argument out of it. Case in point:

"___________________ has more consciousness than an autistic child."

Now, you can pretty much fill in the blank with anything you want (as insulting as it may be, though) and there's a great possibility that it is true.

Deer, snake, ant...whatever animal you want. Fill in the blank. Doesn't do much for proving a point. Therefore, it's not really an argument that you can use.

Oh, and I noticed that you didn't try to argue my actual point. Probably because you can't.

No, I used the Deer example because that is what the Autistic Person writing about it used as the example.

And yes, I can address your point. Hunting does not affect the food quality in terms of free range VS hunting. Before the advent of Agriculture when cows and chickens would be kept in a certain area, people would still sneak up on the animals and kill them.

Therefore, I'm not sure what your statement had to do with the health of something. Also, people still hunt Chickens and Cows...States even have hunting seasons for Prairie Chickens. Just because an animal has been put in a certain area before it is killed does not change much about it BEING killed.

[Nellerin]

I actually agree that we should do Subsistence farming, where you grow and breed for yourself and families. I don't think that the meat we get from supermarkets is good for you at all. When you hunt you don't get the pink sludge of random animal offal mixed together with added e numbers so it's obviously better :D

Yep, it would definitely be the best way to feed ourselves. But in a World with 7 Billion People, it does not seem very accomplish-able anymore.

Best thing the everyday person can do is make sure that they buy Free Range meat and buy as much food as possible from local co-ops or from Farm Stands.

[Emerald Dream]

No, I used the Deer example because that is what the Autistic Person writing about it used as the example.

And yes, I can address your point. Hunting does not affect the food quality in terms of free range VS hunting. Before the advent of Agriculture when cows and chickens would be kept in a certain area, people would still sneak up on the animals and kill them.

Therefore, I'm not sure what your statement had to do with the health of something. Also, people still hunt Chickens and Cows...States even have hunting seasons for Prairie Chickens. Just because an animal has been put in a certain area before it is killed does not change much about it BEING killed.

Using anything as an example is completely ridiculous, because most things can be argued to have more awareness than autistic children. I think you are missing the point here.

My point was that the majority of meat in the US is not hunted. Maybe a small amount of beef and chicken, but not really enough to to be more than the general "raising and slaughtering/killing" of livestock/poultry. Hunting animals in other parts of the world for food is not the same as hunting in the United States. So "eating meat all the time in the USA" is completely irrelevant to this whole discussion.

As is deer vs. autistic children.

[Nellerin]

Using anything as an example is completely ridiculous, because most things can be argued to have more awareness than autistic children. I think you are missing the point here.

My point was that the majority of meat in the US is not hunted. Maybe a small amount of beef and chicken, but not really enough to to be more than the general "raising and slaughtering/killing" of livestock/poultry. Hunting animals in other parts of the world for food is not the same as hunting in the United States. So "eating meat all the time in the USA" is completely irrelevant to this whole discussion.

As is deer vs. autistic children.

How is it irrelevant. I talked about the issue with people eating meat in the US excessively because it is not the healthy way to live. You are actually helping my argument in some ways.

Not only is America messed up in that they eat too much meat, but that the "meat" which they are eating is not even as healthy as it is in many other areas of the World. Therefore we have messed up twice as much as I originally stated.

[Harry Smith]

Yep, it would definitely be the best way to feed ourselves. But in a World with 7 Billion People, it does not seem very accomplish-able anymore.

Best thing the everyday person can do is make sure that they buy Free Range meat and buy as much food as possible from local co-ops or from Farm Stands.

when it costs about 50% more I think the majority of people are still going to buy from supermarkets

[Emerald Dream]

How is it irrelevant. I talked about the issue with people eating meat in the US excessively because it is not the healthy way to live. You are actually helping my argument in some ways.
.

Because it has nothing to do with HUNTING.

American meat (for the most part) is raised and killed, not hunted.

[Nellerin]

when it costs about 50% more I think the majority of people are still going to buy from supermarkets

Well, Free Range IS sold at Super Markets. And, if people raise and grow their own food, buying meat in bulk brings the price down to just $4 per pound. That is incredibly cheap.

Eating healthy is a bit easier than people think, and the price difference is not that huge a lot of the time.

Because it has nothing to do with HUNTING.

American meat (for the most part) is raised and killed, not hunted.

What does that matter? We were talking about American meat in terms of health as a side discussion, in no way was it talking about Hunting.

The past two pages of posts have been about whether meat is good or not, and not about hunting itself. So please do not criticize what I am saying without first seeing the context in which it was posted.


-please do not double post. -Emerald Dream

[Emerald Dream]

What does that matter? We were talking about American meat in terms of health as a side discussion, in no way was it talking about Hunting.


"What does that matter?" is my point exactly. You're bringing a ton of unnecessary gibberish to this discussion.

Well, let's get back on-topic then, since you admit to it. The points you have been making in this thread are irrelevant to "lack of justification of hunting."

Keep drifting away from the actual discussion, and I will lock it.

[Harry Smith]

Well, Free Range IS sold at Super Markets. And, if people raise and grow their own food, buying meat in bulk brings the price down to just $4 per pound. That is incredibly cheap.

Eating healthy is a bit easier than people think, and the price difference is not that huge a lot of the time.

You mentioned buying at farmers markets, that's what I was referring to.

I own chickens, we payed 400 quid for their enclosure, we spend about 30 pounds a month to feed them and that's using low quality food. We get 1-2 eggs per day, work out the math.

I don't understand your need for us to convert into some sort of Tribal system where we produce our own food yet you oppose hunting of deer which meat-wise is very effective. I've shot deer before up in scotland, I've eaten deer but despite what you think I'm not a child killer

[Sugaree]

In what way? Other than making a joke and expanding upon what StoppingTime seemed to think (no, not in a serious manner [he was ignorant before] but in a joking manner) what have I done to suggest that I am full of shit.

I made the statement because StoppingTime seemed to think that because something had less consciousness that it was OK for it to be killed. Well, I replied showing that there was evidence and research to support that people with Autism have potentially less consciousness than a non-Human Animal.

Therefore in that situation the Person with Autism is "below" a non-Human Animal. Now, of course, that is not something I believe. But it is an expansion of the justification that StoppingTime was using.

Comparing a human being, which is on a completely different level of consciousness, to a wild animal makes me take you less seriously (if I ever took you seriously in the first place). All you're doing is whining that some people kill animals for fun. It's wrong, yes, but it's what some people do. In some places of the country, killing these deer is beneficial to the environment. I have yet to see you mention hunting in the light that it can help the local environment from being overrun with deer or any other specific type of animal.

What you're saying is that hunting is ONLY used for food gathering, which hasn't been the case for thousands of years for most of the currently civilized world. While it is still a staple of life in places like tribal Africa (or even more rural parts of the United States, for example), it's not like it's a huge problem. If your heart bleeds for these sources of meat so much, then I suggest you jump in front of whatever bullets hit them. All you're doing is whining about how grotesque it is that some people like to kill things in their spare time. It's not productive, it's not helping anybody, and you can't even come up with one solid argument that can convince anyone in this thread that your side is correct.

On top of THAT, you're insisting that anyone who hunts or who has hunted can be on regarded on the same level as a child killer. If you're going to stoop to this level, get the fuck out.

TL;DR You're full of shit, deal with it

[Nellerin]

Comparing a human being, which is on a completely different level of consciousness, to a wild animal makes me take you less seriously (if I ever took you seriously in the first place). All you're doing is whining that some people kill animals for fun. It's wrong, yes, but it's what some people do. In some places of the country, killing these deer is beneficial to the environment. I have yet to see you mention hunting in the light that it can help the local environment from being overrun with deer or any other specific type of animal.

What you're saying is that hunting is ONLY used for food gathering, which hasn't been the case for thousands of years for most of the currently civilized world. While it is still a staple of life in places like tribal Africa (or even more rural parts of the United States, for example), it's not like it's a huge problem. If your heart bleeds for these sources of meat so much, then I suggest you jump in front of whatever bullets hit them. All you're doing is whining about how grotesque it is that some people like to kill things in their spare time. It's not productive, it's not helping anybody, and you can't even come up with one solid argument that can convince anyone in this thread that your side is correct.

On top of THAT, you're insisting that anyone who hunts or who has hunted can be on regarded on the same level as a child killer. If you're going to stoop to this level, get the fuck out.

TL;DR You're full of shit, deal with it


Not to my surprise you are wrong. Hunting is not needed because of overpopulation. That is one of the largest myths out there:

http://animalrights.about.com/od/wildlife/tp/Hunting-Myths-And-Facts.htm

"In order to keep hunters happy and sell hunting licenses, states artificially boost the deer population by clearcutting forests in order to provide the edge habitat favored by deer and by leasing lands to farmers and requiring that the farmers grow deer-preferred crops."

The State and Local Governments keep Deer populations artificial because of the fact that Sport Hunting is a multi-billion dollar business and makes a small percentage of people happy.

"What does that matter?" is my point exactly. You're bringing a ton of unnecessary gibberish to this discussion.

Well, let's get back on-topic then, since you admit to it. The points you have been making in this thread are irrelevant to "lack of justification of hunting."

Keep drifting away from the actual discussion, and I will lock it.

I wasn't the first one that changed the topic from Hunting to Meat in general. Again not doing you "mod" duties very well.

You mentioned buying at farmers markets, that's what I was referring to.

I own chickens, we payed 400 quid for their enclosure, we spend about 30 pounds a month to feed them and that's using low quality food. We get 1-2 eggs per day, work out the math.

I don't understand your need for us to convert into some sort of Tribal system where we produce our own food yet you oppose hunting of deer which meat-wise is very effective. I've shot deer before up in scotland, I've eaten deer but despite what you think I'm not a child killer

Because we are meant to live the exact same way that we did 10,000 years ago. While society has changed, our genes have not. Gene Expression and Health are only in their most beneficial state when you are hunting your own animals and eating moderate amounts of Beef, Pork, High amounts of fat, nothing processed, and lots of fruits/vegetables.

Did, I say you were a child killer? No...

If you kill something for food, okay. If there is any enjoyment or sport in the killing, then it is unnecessary. Most hunters make the "sport" even more unnecessary by shooting a deer/other animal once and then tracking its blood trail causing it to suffer for many minutes or hours.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Professional Russian]

I wasn't the first one that changed the topic from Hunting to Meat in general. Again not doing you "mod" duties very well.



Because we are meant to live the exact same way that we did 10,000 years ago. While society has changed, our genes have not. Gene Expression and Health are only in their most beneficial state when you are hunting your own animals and eating moderate amounts of Beef, Pork, High amounts of fat, nothing processed, and lots of fruits/vegetables.

Did, I say you were a child killer? No...

If you kill something for food, okay. If there is any enjoyment or sport in the killing, then it is unnecessary. Most hunters make the "sport" even more unnecessary by shooting a deer/other animal once and then tracking its blood trail causing it to suffer for many minutes or hours.

You see. Those people that need track their deer either need more range time or a bigger gun. Not one deer I've shot has run over 59 yards.....although I hunt with a 7mm.

[Nellerin]

You see. Those people that need track their deer either need more range time or a bigger gun. Not one deer I've shot has run over 59 yards.....although I hunt with a 7mm.

They are doing it on purpose because it creates more sport and enjoyment, and did you take that deer and use every part of it?

Also, those 59 yards were quite a bit of suffering. The only humane way to hunt is to kill on-spot and not have little kids running around with guns thinking that they are powerful (not saying you are, but way too many kids hunt.)

[Professional Russian]

They are doing it on purpose because it creates more sport and enjoyment, and did you take that deer and use every part of it?

Also, those 59 yards were quite a bit of suffering. The only humane way to hunt is to kill on-spot and not have little kids running around with guns thinking that they are powerful (not saying you are, but way too many kids hunt.)
Actually the deer doesn't really feel it because of the adrenaline. That 50 yard run is fueled directly off if adrenaline so the deer really doesn't feel much

[Nellerin]

Actually the deer doesn't really feel it because of the adrenaline. That 50 yard run is fueled directly off if adrenaline so the deer really doesn't feel much

Yes, they have much higher levels of Endorphines so it would definitely have lessened the pain. You are right.

What about my first question, did you use the deer?

[Professional Russian]

Yes, they have much higher levels of Endorphines so it would definitely have lessened the pain. You are right.

What about my first question, did you use the deer?

The fuck I don't. I use it. I eat deer almost everyday. I'm having deer steaks for dinner.

[Nellerin]

The fuck I don't. I use it. I eat deer almost everyday. I'm having deer steaks for dinner.

Is that a yes or a no? "the fuck i don't" is not even on the level of Urban Dictionary slang.

[Professional Russian]

Is that a yes or a no? "the fuck i don't" is not even on the level of Urban Dictionary slang.

Yes I use the deer. I forgot your more mentally evolved then us and we must speak proper English for you

[Nellerin]

Yes I use the deer. I forgot your more mentally evolved then us and we must speak proper English for you

I cannot physically be more evolved since it takes thousands of years to do so. So that makes no sense.

And there is a difference between slang, and then using words that immediately contradict each other in the same sentence, creating a situation in which the meaning is no longer present.

[Professional Russian]

I cannot physically be more evolved since it takes thousands of years to do so. So that makes no sense.

And there is a difference between slang, and then using words that immediately contradict each other in the same sentence, creating a situation in which the meaning is no longer present.

Do you seriously point the flaws in every single post someone makes?

[Nellerin]

Do you seriously point the flaws in every single post someone makes?

Nope, or I would have done so many times today. I did so with your post because the grammar and word choice was skewed enough that it prevented me from even knowing what you were saying.

Until Telepathy is an easy to-do thing, using correct wording will always be beneficial when talking to people.

[Harry Smith]

Do you seriously point the flaws in every single post someone makes?

it's either part of his 'I think I'm better than you' campaign or his argument is so weak he's resorted to being a Grammar Nazi

[Nellerin]

it's either part of his 'I think I'm better than you' campaign or his argument is so weak he's resorted to being a Grammar Nazi

A grammar Nazi is someone that picks out every little issue. I have never done that on this Forum.

So that claim is completely unsubstantiated.

I only made a complaint about his grammar because it made the sentence completely useless and prevented him from getting his point across.

[World Eater]

Jesus fucking christ...can a mod lock this piece of shit thread? It honestly has no purpose to remain open.

[Nellerin]

Jesus fucking christ...can a mod lock this piece of shit thread? It honestly has no purpose to remain open.

Yes, please do so.

[Camazotz]

All I did was search Meat in African Tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_people#Diet)

Perhaps it's changed since when I was taught Geography 3 years ago. But we did a whole unit on African tribes, Hunting and their diet was covered, and it was a meat diet and vegetation diet. It is nothing to what the op said, "as a side dish".

And linking back to the op, Hunting is a traditional male hobby. Although they may not eat it, I did say they were known to hunt. And I was correct. (http://www.gateway-africa.com/tribe/suku_tribe.html)

But the Maasai people aren't known as a "long-living tribe." They're just a normal African tribe.

"Once known as "the longevity capital of the world", Abkhasia’s people live in the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia.

The Abkhasia consume very few animal products, which include a fermented beverage called matzoni, made from cow, goat or sheep’s milk, and more rarely, fresh meat, with the fat removed."

http://www.eco-friendly-africa-travel.com/longevity-diet.html

Most dietitians have found that life longevity is increased in cultures that eat less meat. Obviously there are other factors involved, but concerning diet, meat does not increase life spans as well as vegetation.

[britishboy]

im gonna try to stear this back on topic, regulation is needed to protect species from dying out, but nothing more, and it should remain legal, the animal lovers may hate it but what we do with animals is none of their business

[Professional Russian]

it's either part of his 'I think I'm better than you' campaign or his argument is so weak he's resorted to being a Grammar Nazi

Hes more mentally evolved than us remember ;)

[Emerald Dream]

I wasn't the first one that changed the topic from Hunting to Meat in general. Again not doing you "mod" duties very well.


Alrighty then....here we go:


Think about this:

The emotional level of a Deer is on the same level as a Human Child that is a few years old. Killing a Deer results in the same emotional trauma as killing a little kid would for the rest of the surrounding Deer community and family of the individual animal that has been killed.

Yes, many people have an undue assumption that eating meat is necessary for good health, but this is incredibly inaccurate. Looking at the healthiest people in the World, which are located in the scarce remaining tribes of central Africa and the majority of the Himalayan groups around India and Tibet, you see that none of these people ever eat meat.

Eating meat causes the calcification of the Pineal Gland resulting in a "dull" way of thinking and also inhibits any sort of Spirituality in the vast majority of people. The way that these animals are now fed is also dangerous to our health since they are fed either corn or a meat mixture of dead animals including cats (yes many animal shelters dispose of the animals in this way), pigs, cows, etc.


Dude, you brought up meat in your original post. Also, you're equating emotional trauma between deer and human children. Proof they are equal? It's not even the same topic as hunting.


And who cares about something tasting good when it is linked to heart disease, thyroid issues, most of the meat nowadays is contaminated, TMAO (produced by digesting meat) causes hardening of arteries, hormones present in current meat supplies wreck the body.

Sources:

http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/13/just-how-unhealthy-is-that-steak-the-deadly-dangers-of-eating-red-meat/
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/6493:the-scary-danger-of-meat-even-for-those-who-dont-eat-it
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-07/national/38353911_1_gut-bacteria-carnitine-red-meat
http://dherbs.com/news/4804/4669/The-Dangers-of-Eating-Meat/d,ai.html#.UdjlW_nvvL8
http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/hub/dangers-of-meat-consumption



Of course, it is proven that they "feel" and are just as conscious as a young child. Therefore they are one and the same.

Most people do not realize that and therefore are ok with killing deer, but once you know that they are actually just like a little kid in every way, it's almost impossible to justify killing deer especially for fun..

Please do not double post in debates. -StoppingTime

Once again, it is "proven" that deer and human children feel the same way. Proof?

An analogy between killing deer and killing kids. Off-topic, and tasteless.

Deer have the ability to be more conscious than a human child with autism, therefore you feel that the thing with less consciousness is justifiably killed...

BREAKING NEWS - StoppingTime endorses killing people with Autism!

http://www.grandin.com/references/animal.consciousness.html (from Colorado State University)

I guess if it "makes no sense" then you are simply not at that level of intelligence yet, which is ok. Eventually maybe it will make sense.

Like others have said already, all of your credibility is absolutely zero right here with this "joke" or "point" you are trying to make. Putting words in someone's mouth or likening someone who hunts to killing children with autism. Ridiculous, insulting, and off-topic.

No I did not make legitimate claims against him since I know he would not kill autistic kids. I made the statement to show how his ideas made no sense since Animals are actually more conscious than humans depending on the situation.


I'm not saying that you support killing humans automatically because a lot of people are fine with killing one animal but not another kind of animal.

Then why did you even post that nonsense? Animals are more conscious than humans "depending on the situation?" Your argument is situational, and a small percentage of human children are autistic (to use your own example). It's not the norm. Once again, insulting and off-topic.

Are you mentally disabled, look at my posts, I have numerous sources showing you guys what I claim to be true.

So it's ok to use autistic children to claim that hunters are child killers, and now you are asking if someone else is mentally disabled? Like someone else said - on a help and advice website that is pretty insulting, and uncalled for.

What numerous sources?

Have you ever read what their diet entails or do you think every tribe is identical:

This is their diet:

Fibre:
Traditional African communities consumed high-fibre whole starches, such as sorghum, millet, teff, corn, plantain, and brown rice. Miller proposes that insoluble fibre from grains acts like a scouring pad thoroughly cleansing intestines. She also suggests eating fibre containing foods such as beans, avocado, greens, okra, sweet potato and peanuts.
Fermented foods:
Miller found that traditionally prepared items such as cultured sour milk, pickled foods, fermented corn, manioc and millet, even home brewed beer, are rich sources of probiotics lending to good digestion.
Foraged foods:
Africans utilize a variety of high nutrient foraged foods, such as wild greens and bitter leaf. The B vitamin folate in these foods is said to block reproduction within cancer cells.
Select fats:
Africans often eat high levels of omega-3 fats from fish, wild game, greens, nuts and seeds. Miller also discovered that antioxidant rich peanut and palm fruit oils are used sparingly. Traditional cooking methods rarely call for deep frying – being costly, wasteful, and nutritionally damaging.
Less flesh:
Miller noticed that animal products were rare among locals. When meat was eaten, it was whatever wild game happened to be caught in the bush: porcupine, boar, antelope, boa constrictor, bush monkey, etc. Chicken, goat, and fish were also traditionally eaten. These meats are usually enjoyed in moderation, often as a flavouring agent in vegetable-grain stew. Miller equates less flesh consumption with less cancer

Having it a few times a month is beneficial because meat has good stuff in it, but eating it like people do in the USA with meat being the core of every meal is completely bad. And even eating a lot of it, is bad.

Very much off-topic. Is this about nutrition or hunting? Once again, the amount of meat the USA consumes has nothing to do with hunting. Off-topic with that too.


However, the entire concept of "Trophy Hunting" or "Sport Hunting" is indeed rediciculous, and I do not think there is a counter arguement for that.


However there is a billion dollar industry around "sport hunting" and that IS an issue.

Probably the only legitimate and on-topic point you have made in this entire thread, and you're the OP.


I think I am doing alright. :) Stay on-topic with your arguments, please.

[Harry Smith]

, the animal lovers may hate it but what we do with animals is none of their business

It actually is their business, that's like saying Amnesty international may hate torture but that's not anyone of there business if we torture people.

The orinigal title of this thread is how there is no justification for hunting where in fact there is very much, it's not only embedded into our core but it also provides us with a food source and helps boost the Economy. It can be managed very effectively which allows deer population to be maintained

[Nellerin]

Alrighty then....here we go:

Dude, you brought up meat in your original post. Also, you're equating emotional trauma between deer and human children. Proof they are equal? It's not even the same topic as hunting.

Well then that does not help you claim that I am off-topic. I set the topic as OP and included meat/health in my original post, therefore posts regarding that cannot be "off topic."


Then why did you even post that nonsense? Animals are more conscious than humans "depending on the situation?" Your argument is situational, and a small percentage of human children are autistic (to use your own example). It's not the norm. Once again, insulting and off-topic.

1 in 88 people have Autism, that is millions in the World. So I'm not sure that it is some rare occurring thing.




Very much off-topic. Is this about nutrition or hunting? Once again, the amount of meat the USA consumes has nothing to do with hunting. Off-topic with that too.
Like before, it is not off topic since it was in the OP.

[Emerald Dream]

Well then that does not help you claim that I am off-topic. I set the topic as OP and included meat/health in my original post, therefore posts regarding that cannot be "off topic."

Mentioning "meat" as part of your original post does not make this a thread about nutrition. Your original intent for this thread was to discuss why hunting was wrong. It was pretty obvious.


1 in 88 people have Autism, that is millions in the World. So I'm not sure that it is some rare occurring thing.

You do realize that 1 in 88 includes people from all over the autism spectrum, I assume. People with different levels of intelligence and awareness. Once again, equating killing a deer with killing someone with autism is ridiculous. You are talking about people with severe autism (which is still wrong on your part to equate killing ANY humans with deer), which is a sliver of a percentage of people.



Like before, it is not off topic since it was in the OP.

Yes it is. It's a thread about hunting, not nutrition. Otherwise you would have laid out nutritional facts in your original post.


Locked, at OP request. :locked: