Edward Snowden

[ImCoolBeans]

In the last two days both Venezuela's and Bolivia's presidents have offered Edward Snowden, the NSA leaker, asylum. Meaning that they will harbor him as a fugitive so that the U.S. can't extradite him. What are your feelings on this? These countries are more or less saying "fuck you, America".

[Jean Poutine]

Good. America deserves a huge, fat middle finger from all over the world for what they've done. Snowden is a brave, brave man.

[Harry Smith]

I think that it shows how many Latin American countries are strongly moving away from America.

However I have no sympathy for Snowden, you don't work for the NSA and then complain when they do something immoral. He signed a contract and he has breached both the contract and American law

[Kameraden]

I think South America is now ready for "democracy" to be brought to them.

[Hypers]

I kind of feel sorry for Snowden since he is wanted, but at the same time, I feel that all countries have unspeakable secrets, and that secrets should be kept. That being said, all actions should have a justification, countries can't just spy on citizens or assume that citizens are evil in the name of public safety.

As for those countries in Latin America, it's their chance to avenge the US, since the US was not exactly nice to them, always blaming them for drugs, etc. Latin America certainly does not like American influence.

[Capto]

Kudos to Nicaragua in specific from me.

[drew6]

In the last two days both Venezuela's and Bolivia's presidents have offered Edward Snowden, the NSA leaker, asylum. Meaning that they will harbor him as a fugitive so that the U.S. can't extradite him. What are your feelings on this? These countries are more or less saying "fuck you, America".

What those countries do doesn't bother me because they're allowed to do it and if the USA chooses to they can make their own lawful decisions that would not be positive for the countries involved.

I kind of feel sorry for Snowden since he is wanted, but at the same time, I feel that all countries have unspeakable secrets, and that secrets should be kept. That being said, all actions should have a justification, countries can't just spy on citizens or assume that citizens are evil in the name of public safety.

As for those countries in Latin America, it's their chance to avenge the US, since the US was not exactly nice to them, always blaming them for drugs, etc. Latin America certainly does not like American influence.

I think Snowden thought the info he leaked was a big secret. Personally I assumed they were spying on us. To predict, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out they use facebook, combined with cell phone gps data and have everything you've ever clicked on or for adults, purchased with a credit card and eventually your medical records because the IRS will oversee obama care. Even that, I don't care about, I don't plan on doing anything that would bring others harm or hurt my nation.

Latin America might not like our influence, but they sure do cross our border illegally at a pretty good rate, so we can't be all bad.

[Harry Smith]

What those countries do doesn't bother me because they're allowed to do it and if the USA chooses to they can make their own lawful decisions that would not be positive for the countries involved.

Latin America might not like our influence, but they sure do cross our border illegally at a pretty good rate, so we can't be all bad.

So the fact that some illegal immigrants come into America from the Region justifies the pretty bad treatment they have received in the last 100 years from the US?

The US have overthrown or attempted to overthrow no less than 5 democratic governments in South America within the last 60 years

[Walter Powers]

This Snowden dropout guy committed treason. Not that I think he desearves it, but that crime is punishable by death. We can't let people think they can leak our most confidential information and be able to get asylum in a foriegn country. People could die because of what this guy did. I think we need to put pressure on these nations offering him asylum to give him back. We're the most influential nation with the most influential alliances in the world; we should use it. If he does flee to one of those nations, at the very least President Obama should demand they turn him over to the CIA.

[Harry Smith]

This Snowden dropout guy committed treason. Not that I think he desearves it, but that crime is punishable by death. We can't let people think they can leak our most confidential information and be able to get asylum in a foriegn country. People could die because of what this guy did. I think we need to put pressure on these nations offering him asylum to give him back. We're the most influential nation with the most influential alliances in the world; we should use it. If he does flee to one of those nations, at the very least President Obama should demand they turn him over to the CIA.

God Bless America, christ is your semen red, white and blue?

You may have the most influence in the world, so what? The bottom line is after 100 years of getting fucked over these countries are going to try to oppose you by harboring him.

And it would be a breach of his human rights to hand him over to the CIA, they have no judicial power so they can't arrest him. He should be handed over to the state Department

[StoppingTime]

This Snowden dropout guy committed treason.

Okay. So that automatically means he is a terrible human being who hates his country?


Not that I think he desearves it, but that crime is punishable by death.

Not if he isn't in America ;)


We can't let people think they can leak our most confidential information

If there was a scale from least to most confidential, I'd say this would be about a 4/10, honestly. Plus it's not like people never suspected this.


and be able to get asylum in a foriegn country.

Why? If other countries don't like the US policies, they can do what they believe is right.


People could die because of what this guy did.

...Is a terrible argument that could be used for anything.
The legal age to drive was lowered? People could die from this.
You don't need to take your shoes off in an airport? People could die from this.
etc.


I think we need to put pressure on these nations offering him asylum to give him back.

Why should they?



We're the most influential nation with the most influential alliances in the world; we should use it.

lolokay. So what if we are, that means that all other countries must bow down the the all-powerful US?


If he does flee to one of those nations, at the very least President Obama should demand they turn him over to the CIA.

Demands don't really work, if you haven't noticed from recent news happenings.

[TinyDancer]

And then there's the wiki leaks paradox. They won't give up the countries that snowden is applying for asylum. Isn't that what they do?

[Nellerin]

I think that it shows how many Latin American countries are strongly moving away from America.

However I have no sympathy for Snowden, you don't work for the NSA and then complain when they do something immoral. He signed a contract and he has breached both the contract and American law

What law did he break? And he did not know that he was working for an agency that does this horrible stuff, and once he found out, he told everyone. Of course you should have sympathy for him, the US could kill him now for telling the American Public something that they have the constitutional right to know about.

[Harry Smith]

What law did he break? And he did not know that he was working for an agency that does this horrible stuff, and once he found out, he told everyone. Of course you should have sympathy for him, the US could kill him now for telling the American Public something that they have the constitutional right to know about.

Unauthorized disclosure of national defense information, theft of government property, Unauthorized disclosure of classified communication.

All 3 charges carry a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, he will not get hanged but he needs to face the charges just like every other suspect in the justice system does. Americans don't have a constitutional right to know about the NSA or the CIA's activities, does nobody understand the purpose of having a an intelligence service? It's not designed to follow the laws of country at all. He worked for the NSA, a body part of the intelligence community

[Nellerin]

Unauthorized disclosure of national defense information, theft of government property, Unauthorized disclosure of classified communication.

All 3 charges carry a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, he will not get hanged but he needs to face the charges just like every other suspect in the justice system does. Americans don't have a constitutional right to know about the NSA or the CIA's activities, does nobody understand the purpose of having a an intelligence service? It's not designed to follow the laws of country at all. He worked for the NSA, a body part of the intelligence community

They want to charge him with espionage AKA kill him or keep him in jail for life. But guess what... those laws do not apply when the Government was actually breaking the constitutional laws to begin with.

[Harry Smith]

They want to charge him with espionage AKA kill him or keep him in jail for life. But guess what... those laws do not apply when the Government was actually breaking the constitutional laws to begin with.

Espionage isn't a law. I've got the exact wording up here now, not once is this espionage law mentioned you talk about. If he's broken the law they have a right to deal with it using the correct punishment

What constitutional law is the government breaking?

[Kameraden]

He's probably already dead or in a Russian torture cell.

[jayjay's toocool]

Yeah definitely a slap in the face I think it's because he did something against the government and they don't like our government .. The BIG Q here is WHAT WILL AMERICA DO ABOUT IT???

[Sugaree]

In my judgement, Snowden is a coward. Running away after leaking what he leaked only goes to show that he's not someone who faces consequences. Running away and claiming you're going to go to another country with a better human rights record and then flying over to fucking Hong Kong shows your own hypocrisy.

Snowden isn't a hero, but he isn't a villain either. What he leaked was vital to public knowledge because it clearly violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution. Sure, he broke some laws; but in the end, is he really worth spending millions upon millions of dollars in a court case? At least Bradley Manning is being an upright individual and facing the charges against him with some dignity. He never ran away like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden.

More than anything, Snowden should be criticized for this and this alone. It's not what he leaked or how he leaked it, but his actions after doing so. Running away only causes you more trouble. If he so strongly believes in his cause, why does he run away from the opportunity to stand up for it? It makes no sense to me because, if you're not willing to stand up for your cause, you're not good enough to say you're someone who fights for that cause.

Whether or not this is TREASON is another question. Treason implies that he was working undercover for another government or coalition of governments to leak classified information. If he's like any other whistle blower, like Bradley Manning, then the charges of treason do not match. Whistle blowers are protected under United States law, but that does not exempt them from having a day in court. Until information comes out that Snowden was working secretly for another government to specifically leak this or any other sensitive information, then I'm not going to call him a traitor. He's a coward, and cowards don't deserve the time of day given to them.

[Walter Powers]

God Bless America, christ is your semen red, white and blue?

You may have the most influence in the world, so what? The bottom line is after 100 years of getting fucked over these countries are going to try to oppose you by harboring him.

And it would be a breach of his human rights to hand him over to the CIA, they have no judicial power so they can't arrest him. He should be handed over to the state Department


Whatever, I guess that'd be how it would go.

[Southside]

I think Edward Snowden is a hero in my opinion, it's something the American public needed to know about. I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of being lied to and kept from the truth about what our government is doing..

I love how Venezuela and these other Latin American countries are basically bitch slapping the US Government by offering him asylum. Finally the 3rd world stands up against something...

[Walter Powers]

I think Edward Snowden is a hero in my opinion, it's something the American public needed to know about. I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of being lied to and kept from the truth about what our government is doing..

I love how Venezuela and these other Latin American countries are basically bitch slapping the US Government by offering him asylum. Finally the 3rd world stands up against something...

I guess with our president they can do whatever they want.

[Southside]

I guess with our president they can do whatever they want.

Bush was doing most of the same thing, you don't remember the Patriot act do you?

[Walter Powers]

Bush was doing most of the same thing, you don't remember the Patriot act do you?

I was referring to Obama's lack of standing up to weak countries.

[Southside]

I was referring to Obama's lack of standing up to weak countries.

What can he do? Go send a CIA or Navy SEALs team to go capture him? I don't think you realize not every country is going to bow down and suck America's dick everytime we ask them to.

[Walter Powers]

What can he do? Go send a CIA or Navy SEALs team to go capture him? I don't think you realize not every country is going to bow down and suck America's dick everytime we ask them to.

Well, at the very least, if a country gives him asylum, the President should go on TV and REQUEST that government turn him over.

And whether or not you agree with what he did, he's most certainly not a hero. He's a coward. He's running away!

[Southside]

Well, at the very least, if a country gives him asylum, the President should go on TV and REQUEST that government turn him over.

And whether or not you agree with what he did, he's most certainly not a hero. He's a coward. He's running away!

Why do you think every country is automatically going to just listen to us?

Venezuela and all these other countries already don't like us for all the years we've fucked them over.

He's a hero for telling the American public, I respect him on that note. He's not a coward, any person in their right mind would make a attempt to live free instead of living in a cell for the rest of their life. I know if I was wanted and facing life imprisonment I'd try the best to stay free and seek asylum.

[comical]

Well, at the very least, if a country gives him asylum, the President should go on TV and REQUEST that government turn him over.

And whether or not you agree with what he did, he's most certainly not a hero. He's a coward. He's running away!



Maybe President Obama is thinking more logical now and just saying F it. It's not like they'd listen anyhow. They're probably saying F America. I don't blame Snowden for running away. If a whole government were after me, I'd get away from em as well - hero or not.

[Walter Powers]

Maybe President Obama is thinking more logical now and just saying F it. It's not like they'd listen anyhow. They're probably saying F America. I don't blame Snowden for running away. If a whole government were after me, I'd get away from em as well - hero or not.

If President Obama was "thinking more logical now," he'd have denounced the NSA program. To my knowledge he's defended it.

[Nellerin]

Espionage isn't a law. I've got the exact wording up here now, not once is this espionage law mentioned you talk about. If he's broken the law they have a right to deal with it using the correct punishment

What constitutional law is the government breaking?

It is called privacy, they are spying on the American Public which is against the fourth amendment.

And no it is not a "law" it is the Espionage Act which can result in the death penalty.

If President Obama was "thinking more logical now," he'd have denounced the NSA program. To my knowledge he's defended it.

Obama is not in control of PRISM, nor did he create it, nor can he do anything but endorse it. While Obama is not great, no President can do anything other than be a puppet for the senators, governors, chairmen, and corporate interests that have controlled the country for years on end.


He's probably already dead or in a Russian torture cell.

Lol you are a bit uninformed. Russia is awesome (partially joking) but in situations involving people running from the USA, they are amazing.

Putin has publicly decided to defend and support Snowden.


Do not double post in debate threads -StoppingTime

[Walter Powers]

It is called privacy, they are spying on the American Public which is against the fourth amendment.

And no it is not a "law" it is the Espionage Act which can result in the death penalty.



Obama is not in control of PRISM, nor did he create it, nor can he do anything but endorse it. While Obama is not great, no President can do anything other than be a puppet for the senators, governors, chairmen, and corporate interests that have controlled the country for years on end.

Do not double post in debate threads -StoppingTime

Corporate interest? Let me post a thread on that.

[Nellerin]

Corporate interest? Let me post a thread on that.

Alright?...

[DerBear]

Interestingly enough, I don't really have a view point as I see the story from both sides and wrong has been done by both the USA and Snowden.

I can't blame him for jumping ship and to be honest America could use the knock to their overinflated ego even if this isn't the best way to do it.

[drew6]

So the fact that some illegal immigrants come into America from the Region justifies the pretty bad treatment they have received in the last 100 years from the US?

The US have overthrown or attempted to overthrow no less than 5 democratic governments in South America within the last 60 years

We haven't overthrown anyone nor have we attempted. We do support people that attempt to overthrow their dictators and yeah, if we're so horrible why would they come here?

[Nellerin]

In my judgement, Snowden is a coward. Running away after leaking what he leaked only goes to show that he's not someone who faces consequences. Running away and claiming you're going to go to another country with a better human rights record and then flying over to fucking Hong Kong shows your own hypocrisy.

Snowden isn't a hero, but he isn't a villain either. What he leaked was vital to public knowledge because it clearly violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution. Sure, he broke some laws; but in the end, is he really worth spending millions upon millions of dollars in a court case? At least Bradley Manning is being an upright individual and facing the charges against him with some dignity. He never ran away like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden.

More than anything, Snowden should be criticized for this and this alone. It's not what he leaked or how he leaked it, but his actions after doing so. Running away only causes you more trouble. If he so strongly believes in his cause, why does he run away from the opportunity to stand up for it? It makes no sense to me because, if you're not willing to stand up for your cause, you're not good enough to say you're someone who fights for that cause.

Whether or not this is TREASON is another question. Treason implies that he was working undercover for another government or coalition of governments to leak classified information. If he's like any other whistle blower, like Bradley Manning, then the charges of treason do not match. Whistle blowers are protected under United States law, but that does not exempt them from having a day in court. Until information comes out that Snowden was working secretly for another government to specifically leak this or any other sensitive information, then I'm not going to call him a traitor. He's a coward, and cowards don't deserve the time of day given to them.

Haha he is a coward. He left because he would be killed otherwise, we have already used drones to kill four Americans (three with no justification) and look at how they have been treating other whistle-blowers.

Since the 50's, people have been leaving the US for Russia after blowing the whistle because the did not feel like DYING, that is cowardly?

[Sugaree]

Haha he is a coward. He left because he would be killed otherwise, we have already used drones to kill four Americans (three with no justification) and look at how they have been treating other whistle-blowers.

Since the 50's, people have been leaving the US for Russia after blowing the whistle because the did not feel like DYING, that is cowardly?

Because Russia has no record of killing people they don't like :rolleyes:

[Nellerin]

Because Russia has no record of killing people they don't like :rolleyes:

Because they always protect people that America does not like. Putin is actually refusing to tell America where Snowden is, and has even granted him extra protection from extradition.

Russia is not the last place Snowden is looking to be, and therefore Putin and Russian Officials are now helping him (or at least not hindering him) in his attempt to make it to a Country in Latin America/South America that has no extradition.

While Russia can be a fairly crazy and unjust place, they always seem to do the right thing with American Whistleblowers.

[Harry Smith]

We haven't overthrown anyone nor have we attempted. We do support people that attempt to overthrow their dictators and yeah, if we're so horrible why would they come here?

Really

Iran 1953, the CIA overthrew the Democratic government and placed the SHAH on the throne who was in fact a dictator.

Guatemala 1954- The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz to protect the interests of the united fruit company.

So yes the US have overthrown many governments your just slightly ignorant on the subject

[Nellerin]

Really

Iran 1953, the CIA overthrew the Democratic government and placed the SHAH on the throne who was in fact a dictator.

Guatemala 1954- The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz to protect the interests of the united fruit company.

So yes the US have overthrown many governments your just slightly ignorant on the subject

And there are many more, especially in the Cold War Era.

Syria - CIA supported the coup to overthrow the current government.

Tibet - CIA armed an anti-communist party to get rid of the Chinese from Tibet (slightly different situation, but still American intervention.)

Indonesia - Once a US pilot was shot down, the CIA helped overthrow the government.

Cuba - US has tried to overthrow Castro multiple times

Democratic Republic of the Congo - Joseph Mobutu was able to take over the Government from the previous leader with the help of the US.

South Vietnam - CIA backed a coup against the President.

And there are many more. The US likes to get their hands in everything.

[drew6]

Really

Iran 1953, the CIA overthrew the Democratic government and placed the SHAH on the throne who was in fact a dictator.

Guatemala 1954- The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz to protect the interests of the united fruit company.

So yes the US have overthrown many governments your just slightly ignorant on the subject

from wiki:
Shortly thereafter on August 19 a successful coup was headed by retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, organized by the American (CIA) with the active support of the British (MI6) (known as Operation Ajax).


CIA organized but didn't overthrow anyone that was done by Iranians and active support of MI6, but you believe what you want to believe.

[Nellerin]

from wiki:
Shortly thereafter on August 19 a successful coup was headed by retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, organized by the American (CIA) with the active support of the British (MI6) (known as Operation Ajax).


CIA organized but didn't overthrow anyone that was done by Iranians and active support of MI6, but you believe what you want to believe.

Whether or not that one instance was completely the CIA overthrowing the government does not matter. He listed more examples and I gave a bunch as well.

The US has repeatedly overthrown Government's that did not fit its Agenda, especially during the Cold War.

[drew6]

Whether or not that one instance was completely the CIA overthrowing the government does not matter. He listed more examples and I gave a bunch as well.

The US has repeatedly overthrown Government's that did not fit its Agenda, especially during the Cold War.

We support people who want to overthrow an unjust government.
Do we overthrow the government? No, the citizens do.

If we wanted to overthrow Cuba, we would, we could completely dominate them, but we choose not to. If the people chose to rise up, I'm sure we'd be supportive, but the USA isn't going to be an active participant in that or any other. We stand for freedom and I think it's a good thing.

Anyway, back to Snowden: I'm still not sure what we'll think of him in a few years. I think that he really believes he was trying to help the people of the USA but the international stuff he released or could release undermines what people in the USA will think of him.

What I don't get about him is he went and worked for the NSA; a well funded notorious spy organization and then he shocked that the NSA was spying on people.

That logic doesn't track. I think there's a reason he didn't graduate high school and it appears he mislead people in what college classes he took.

I do think, even with his screwy logic, that he is a very bright guy who has a good understanding of technology, but is missing something in fairly basic because high school isn't that hard, so what the heck was going on in his life or what's wrong with him to not graduate and I'm not saying make honor role because with No Child Left Behind, schools are pretty good about guiding a kid to get the bare minimum needed for graduation. That part? The whole being bright and not graduating is really weird to me.

[Nellerin]

We support people who want to overthrow and unjust government.
Do we overthrow the government? No, the citizens do.

If we wanted to overthrow Cuba, we would, we could completely dominate them, but we choose not to. If the people chose to rise up, I'm sure we'd be supportive, but the USA isn't going to be an active participant in that or any other. We stand for freedom and I think it's a good thing.

Anyway, back to Snowden: I'm still not sure what we'll think of him in a few years. I think that he really believes he was trying to help the people of the USA but the international stuff he released or could release undermines what people in the USA will think of him.

What I don't get about him is he went and worked for the NSA; a well funded notorious spy organization and then he shocked that the NSA was spying on people.

That logic doesn't track. I think there's a reason he didn't graduate high school and it appears he mislead people in what college classes he took.

I do think, even with his screwy logic, that he is a very bright guy who has a good understanding of technology, but is missing something in fairly basic because high school isn't that hard, so what the heck was going on in his life or what's wrong with him to not graduate and I'm not saying make honor role because with No Child Left Behind, schools are pretty good about guiding a kid to get the bare minimum needed for graduation. That part? The whole being bright and not graduating is really weird to me.

Since when is High School necessary. From what I can tell some of the smartest people ever to live on Earth have not finished High School, so that is a bad argument to use when trying to bring down Snowden's reputation.

He did not work for the NSA, he worked for a private company that was hired by the NSA to out-source some of their work.

He is releasing information which is about things that the US Government has done which are illegal to begin with. Therefore, of course they should be released, they are ILLEGAL.

The USA does not stand for Freedom, the Founding Fathers did, and they would be disgusted with the things that the US is currently doing.

Benjamin Franklin said: “Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

That is exactly what the US is doing to justify their spying, they use the argument that a small amount of additional protection is worth infringing on your rights.

[Harry Smith]

from wiki:
Shortly thereafter on August 19 a successful coup was headed by retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, organized by the American (CIA) with the active support of the British (MI6) (known as Operation Ajax).


CIA organized but didn't overthrow anyone that was done by Iranians and active support of MI6, but you believe what you want to believe.

I won't actually.

If you look at the coup then you'll see that clerics were bribed by the CIA along with gangsters and the mafia. The Iranians were actually very lazy about it, it was only thanks to the CIA and MI6 funding it. It wasn't a people's uprising, it was planned months in advance by the CIA

But I forgot America is perfect isn't it?

[drew6]

Since when is High School necessary. From what I can tell some of the smartest people ever to live on Earth have not finished High School, so that is a bad argument to use when trying to bring down Snowden's reputation.

He did not work for the NSA, he worked for a private company that was hired by the NSA to out-source some of their work.

He is releasing information which is about things that the US Government has done which are illegal to begin with. Therefore, of course they should be released, they are ILLEGAL.

The USA does not stand for Freedom, the Founding Fathers did, and they would be disgusted with the things that the US is currently doing.

Benjamin Franklin said: “Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

That is exactly what the US is doing to justify their spying, they use the argument that a small amount of additional protection is worth infringing on your rights.

You are reading WAYyyy to much into my comment. I'm not trying to bring his reputation down, whatever his reputation is, or yours or mine is, we've earned it. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't makes sense. Nothing more, nothing less because high school is pretty easy and somehow, as I've said - I think he's really bright, yet couldn't do something as basic as high school.

I tend to drift towards the middle on things and reserve judgment. I don't buy what the media has attempted to shove down our throats that he is a hero or a traitor. Those are too extreme and time will tell. I think it's foolish to make a character assessment this early on.

To me, this case is fascinating because Snowden broke the law by releasing the information, but the NSA was violating our right to privacy and then lied about to Congress and that's when Snowden released secret warrant for grabbing the meta data from millions of Americans. With that release, Snowden proved we were lied to just days earlier by James Clapper when he was specifically asked if we were spying on "...millions of Americans, perhaps hundreds of millions of Americans...".

So a strong case can be made that Snowden took one for the team and exposed that lie and in order to do it, he knew he'd lose his own personal freedom and either be arrested or flee the country and have some kind of freedom. Snowden trashed his life to expose that lie. It's kind of like diving on a grenade to save your fellow soldiers.

Personally, I think he could have handled it differently, but I can't say what he could have done differently to ensure the lie was exposed. If he bumped his concern up the chain of command, he'd be removed or hushed up. I could see why he'd think that given Clapper is in charge of Intelligence and just lied. Maybe he could have taken it to the oversight committee, but they either already knew what was going on and didn't care and if that's the case, the spying on us wouldn't have been exposed and he'd be fired or something. Maybe they would have been on his side, but I think for him, he wanted to make 100% sure that it didn't get swept under the rug and by doing what he did, he made sure of that. So I can kinda get behind that thinking. I just don't know what his options were given he wanted to expose the lie and not lose the proof or his life or freedom.

I won't comment on the USA freedom issue because the thread is more about Snowden than it is about what America stands for in general.

To Harry, I don't think America is perfect. I took what you said quite literally as I should given it's electronic, no inflection, body language etc. and you said the USA has overthrown other countries and that's not true. We've organized, we've participated, we've supported, but we weren't the over throwers. Had you said, "Yeah, but America has participated in over throwing these governments (insert list) ". I would have said, "Yup." but you didn't say that, you said just the USA, no other countries or participants and that wasn't and isn't true.

[Harry Smith]

To Harry, I don't think America is perfect. I took what you said quite literally as I should given it's electronic, no inflection, body language etc. and you said the USA has overthrown other countries and that's not true. We've organized, we've participated, we've supported, but we weren't the over throwers. Had you said, "Yeah, but America has participated in over throwing these governments (insert list) ". I would have said, "Yup." but you didn't say that, you said just the USA, no other countries or participants and that wasn't and isn't true.

You overthrow the government of Iraq, it's rather stupid to believe that your government would act alone. Of course you couldn't do it alone but your original point was asking why southern America would be hostile and the fact is that America has stamped all over that region, you've funded anti-democratic costras, you've violated the sovereignty of Cuba multiple times and you have the blood of the 1954 Nicaragua coup all over your hands. The US doesn't care about spreading democracy or freedom.

[drew6]

....

[Southside]

We haven't overthrown anyone nor have we attempted. We do support people that attempt to overthrow their dictators and yeah, if we're so horrible why would they come here?

Oh we havent?

Iran 1953

Guatemala 1954

Both CIA backed coups...

[drew6]

Oh we havent?

Iran 1953

Guatemala 1954

Both CIA backed coups...

There's a huge difference between backing and actually doing it.

You may back the Miami Heat and buy their gear, but Lebron is the one making the dunks.

[Harry Smith]

There's a huge difference between backing and actually doing it.

You may back the Miami Heat and buy their gear, but Lebron is the one making the dunks.

You making John Kerry sweat.

Without the backing of the CIA these groups wouldn't be able to buy weapons or get training. Hence why they go to the CIA, as much as you deny it without the CIA these coups wouldn't happen. The blood of democracy is on the US's hands

[Wesl3y]

Let him go, he did us a favor. Fuck the NSA. (I hope they don't see this.)

[Nellerin]

Let him go, he did us a favor. Fuck the NSA. (I hope they don't see this.)

Knowing how they are, they probably did, but still FUCK THEM.

[Cygnus]

Yeeeeeah Maduro should offer Snowden a place to stay even though he won't be fed nor have toilet paper. That way my people are a step closer to rebelling against that non-legitimate idiot. I do not have much against Snowden though, the US deserved having its information in wiki leaks. SUFFER GRINGOS SUFFER

[RyanCrest]

In the last two days both Venezuela's and Bolivia's presidents have offered Edward Snowden, the NSA leaker, asylum. Meaning that they will harbor him as a fugitive so that the U.S. can't extradite him. What are your feelings on this? These countries are more or less saying "fuck you, America".

It's good to know Venezuela and Bolivia are out to get us!

[Trenton_]

Yeeeeeah Maduro should offer Snowden a place to stay even though he won't be fed nor have toilet paper. That way my people are a step closer to rebelling against that non-legitimate idiot. I do not have much against Snowden though, the US deserved having its information in wiki leaks. SUFFER GRINGOS SUFFER

It's good to know Venezuela and Bolivia are out to get us!


This gringo isn't suffering haha Snowdens fine, it's side story spy novel that releases a few pages once in a while. Not even a lead story anymore. I'm curious if he can make it south america from moscow. turns out to not be too easy. He better hurry up though because it'll get cold in moscow soon enough and i doubt he brought his scarf and gloves. :)