Second amendment

[Maverick]

Do you agree with the second amendment, the right to bear arms? Is it still necessary or should we have more gun restriction?

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

Well, I think that handguns should be banned worldwide, as most crimes are commited using handguns. But larger things like rifles and shotguns should be legal.

[Sapphire]

Greater gun restriction leads to less gun crime.
I admit that it wouldn't eradicate gun crime, but it would lessen it.

[Maverick]

How does it benefit anybody if citizens are not armed? Sure, there are gun crimes, but what about protection? Many people live in high crime areas or are single and owning a gun is means of protection. Not only are guns necessary for protection from our own people, but the government as well. The founding fathers put the second amendment in for protection from tyranny in government. Here are a few famous Thomas Jefferson quotes on the second amendment.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

I just don't understand why people are willing to give up a means of protection from people and government when it provides little extra means of security.

[Hauptmann Kauffman]

I don't understand FULL gun bans, but handgun bans I think would greatly benefit society. Most weapons a homeowner has are most likely to be used against them anyway, and handguns just make it easier to commit crimes, and conceal weapons. Id we could completely eradicate handguns, the world would be a much better place

[Maverick]

The world would not be a better place. Banning something doesn't make everything better. All it does is leave law-abiding citizens defenseless and those who are willing to break the law will get a gun on the black market. Those who will get the gun on the black market will know that everyone else is defenseless.

We banned drugs, we've tried to ban alcohol, and they're proven unsuccessful. Despite the laws being passed it hasn't stopped the black market and crime increased.

Banning something cannot be expected to solve our problems if you fail to see the repercussions of it.

A world with defenseless citizens is just appalling.

[Whisper]

Bowling For Columbine (http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/bowling_for_columbine/large.html)

[Maverick]

Bowling For Columbine (http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/bowling_for_columbine/large.html)
I just watched the trailer and I couldn't possibly take something like that seriously.

[Whisper]

You don't take anything that goes against your opinion seriously hun

[Maverick]

You don't take anything that goes against your opinion seriously hun
lol. that is so not true. Its just there was a good discussion going and you just come on by and post a link. I'd much prefer a more depth reply like you normally do on MSN.

[Patchy]

Guns used to be terrible in scotland but then when the dunblane Massacre happened (Info here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre ) all hand guns were banned and the rules were tighter on all firearms now there is hardly any gun crime in scotland and if there is its normally drug cults killing each other not children being murdered. it does still happen but not alot. It's worked really well in scotland and other countries could do the same crack down but usa has so many people with handguns not everyone would hand them in...not even for cash.

[Sapphire]

Here (in the UK) we don't have guns and we are at no greater risk of serious harm or death than people who own guns in the US.
A friend of mine walked down a street in NY and witnessed a man being shot in broad day light! Something like that is not found here.
There is no way that owning a gun makes you at less risk of getting killed.

[Patchy]

I think america will never get this issue sorted out...its cheaper to buy a handgun than buying a pc game and in some states a child over the age of 12 with a letter of permission can buy a gun...that aint right!

[Sapphire]

Yea, a country which grants children the right to bear arms has got everything backwards!

[Maverick]

Here (in the UK) we don't have guns and we are at no greater risk of serious harm or death than people who own guns in the US.
A friend of mine walked down a street in NY and witnessed a man being shot in broad day light! Something like that is not found here.
There is no way that owning a gun makes you at less risk of getting killed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/24/nguns24.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

And no, I never said it was full proof, but its a natural human instinct. You wouldn't attack the stronger (the armed), you'd go for the weaker (unarmed).

I think america will never get this issue sorted out...its cheaper to buy a handgun than buying a pc game and in some states a child over the age of 12 with a letter of permission can buy a gun...that aint right!
LOL 'I can't afford to buy a PC game so I'll buy a gun and shoot people' - yeah where did that come from?

I'd really like to see the law that says a child can have guns.

[Whisper]

I think handguns are a pain in the ass
there EXTREMELY hard to get a hold of and use in Canada
Shotguns and riffles are common in rural areas but you have to take an FAC course in order to have one and they have to be registered
but gun crime for the most part isn't high by any means
its ALLOT lower then in the states

I mean don't get me wrong I personally have no problems with useful guns (shotguns and rifles) for the civilian population. Anthony you know dam well how many guns and ammo my fam has with the outfitting. But auto's, handguns etc... should only be for the cops and military


Our countries in general are just allot different
I've never seen a security guard in a bank or a grocery store etc here
we have security at malls but thats more to keep kids from skateboarding, bums from sleeping and minor shoplifting
nothing serious
I think the worst they have is pepper spray

I've seen some soldiers in Edmonton because theres a base near but there NEVER armed off base
I think Americans just love there guns a lil to much

[Sapphire]

It made me smile when I read where these guns are coming from! lol. How typical. And having an American was advising us to get more guns was the icing on the cake for me.

I think Americans just love there guns a lil to much

Completely agree with you there!

[Octo22]

The world would not be a better place. Banning something doesn't make everything better. All it does is leave law-abiding citizens defenseless and those who are willing to break the law will get a gun on the black market. Those who will get the gun on the black market will know that everyone else is defenseless.

Really? Because besides...I think it's only the States and Finland that have full right to bear arms.

And I'm in no fear of getting shot.

The media definitely turns its citizens paranoid, I've gone down dark sketchy alleyways but guess what. If someone else illegally owns a gun, who's to say I don't? I've hardly ever heard of gun crimes in my area, Canada realizes these are just dumb weapons.


Oh and if you were to take gun crimes from the top 10 (not counting U.S.) countries that experience it. Add them all together. Multiply by 2. You're still not at the U.S.

Finland has even more lax laws than the U.S. about gun control laws, I know a friend there who infact owns an m249 saw. If you were to extrapolate their population to that of the states they still don't come close. They have approx 2 deaths from guns a year.

Guess what. The second amendment is not the issue, it's the citizens.

[Whisper]

do NOT compare the states to Finland
Finland has a mandatory military enlistment and training
Every single male at 18yrs of age goes in
So every single man in Finland is trained in guns

They also have regular mandatory refreshment for the rest for there adult life (they remain in reserve until there 50-60 depending on training and rank)

they have a truly brilliant system
so ya

don't compare apples to oranges

[Patchy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/24/nguns24.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

And no, I never said it was full proof, but its a natural human instinct. You wouldn't attack the stronger (the armed), you'd go for the weaker (unarmed).


LOL 'I can't afford to buy a PC game so I'll buy a gun and shoot people' - yeah where did that come from?

I'd really like to see the law that says a child can have guns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/03/98/us_shooting/69650.stm

it says at one point:

Although it is an offence to sell or give a gun to under-18s, this does not apply if the youngsters have the consent their of parent or guardian.

so there you go and I dont think the bbc will get there facts wrong ;)

[Maverick]

I don't understand why you're winking because I never said it wasn't true, I just wanted to know which state it was. I don't agree with children getting guns legally, I think its very irresponsible, but law abiding adult citizens should still have the right to have a gun. Plus the article said itself that Arkansas has the loosest gun laws in the country so I think its unrealistic to use an extreme to prove a point. We still have 49 other states with their own unique gun laws.

[Bankai15]

Look at it this way, if the U.S.A where to totally outlaw guns, what would law enforcement do to combat crime? People smuggle crap into the US all the time and if the smuggel in guns along with drugs would would we do to fight a gun useing crook? Throw rocks at them?

[Sapphire]

Having an armed police force is different to having a whole nation of armed citizens.
Armed police make me feel that tad bit safer, whereas an armed public makes me feel really on edge.

[madness]

Ive got to say if in England we had the second amendment i would not be happy.
I think we've got it right here, people can get firearms, but they must acquire a licence, which has lots of checks in.

[Whisper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdTnms8pIJE&feature=related


hahahahahaha

[Octo22]

Having an armed police force is different to having a whole nation of armed citizens.
Armed police make me feel that tad bit safer, whereas an armed public makes me feel really on edge.


100% agreed.

[Maverick]

Armed police cannot be around you 24/7. If someone is breaking into your house its going to take a few minutes for them to get there (if you're able to call them) and if you own a gun its a great way to protect yourself.

[Sapphire]

A baseball bat will work too

[Maverick]

Yes I'm sure a little old lady could beat down a huge robber with a bat. I'm sure she'd have plenty of strength for that.

[Everglow]

I'd be scared of an old woman with a gun.
Nevertheless, I agree with the second amendment...to a point...
The sale of guns needs reform in regulation.

ps. Michael Moore annoys the hell out of me..but he brings up good points...every once and while

[Sapphire]

Yes I'm sure a little old lady could beat down a huge robber with a bat. I'm sure she'd have plenty of strength for that.

Hmm, yea let's give the elderly firearms, because that couldn't result in unnecessary or accidental serious injuries or deaths. Great idea.

[Maverick]

Hmm, yea let's give the elderly firearms, because that couldn't result in unnecessary or accidental serious injuries or deaths. Great idea.
Let's not drive cars and ban alcohol because its possible someone can drive drunk.

[Sapphire]

Giving them a gun is just asking for them to freak out and shoot someone by accident.

I mean, think of people suffering from dementia, the last thing you want is for them to be carrying.

[Maverick]

Unless you've lived in a situation where you needed a gun for protection you cannot understand.

[Sapphire]

The more guns on the streets, the more gun crime. The more gun crime, the more likely you are to be shot. It's logical.

[Maverick]

The more guns on the streets, the more gun crime. The more gun crime, the more likely you are to be shot. It's logical.
When guns are banned, it removes them from law abiding citizens. Others will get them on the black market and get them anyway or build their own gun-like weapons. The citizens won't be any safer from criminals who will break the law anyway, they will only be left without defense.

[Underground_Network]

Yes, but what are you to protect yourself with if a robber breaks into your house with throwing knives/throwing axes/or a bow and arrow/crossbow. :eek: Even if you ban guns, people can still hit you from long range. If people can hit you from long range, you need protection, something that can hit them from a distance away, as they now have no need to walk right up to you. I'm always afraid that a bear is going to break into my house armed with a machine gun, so I'm trying to convince my dad to get a handgun. :porkypig:

[Sapphire]

Actually, it is a very American attitude that you are expressing.
My view is more typical of Britain.
That's the difference. No more, no less.
Just because I don't experience guns as much as people in the US doesn't mean that I don't understand.

Guns can snatch a life from over 10m away. With a blade you have to be up in close proximity of your attacker/victim.

I, personally, would rather my attacker carry a blade as opposed to a gun due to the ease with which a gun can (and does) take life.

EDIT
Since when is a bear going to carry a machine gun?

[Serenity]

Assuming, as Ant pointed out, that outlawing guns will suddenly cease their existence in society. Which is doubtful.

[Underground_Network]

Lol, I had to add a little humor to my post, or as you Brits refer to it, humour. :D Anyways, I think that people with no criminal records should be able to acquire a gun. They should also undergo several simple tests to make sure they are in no way mentally incapacitated/demented. They should solely acquire the gun for defense, because no matter what is done, people will always get guns, and there will people who use those guns for bad reasons. You don't bring knives to a gunfight, or you end up dead. If there's a possibility that someone is going to break into your house with a gun or other deadly, somewhat long range weapon, you should have the right to protect yourself with a similar weapon/gun. Its only fair.

[Maverick]

Well I'm American, do you think that has something to do with it? :P

But I didn't mean to say you haven't experienced 'gun culture' so you don't understand.

I'm not some gun fanatic. I really have no use for a gun and if I wasn't becoming a police officer, I wouldn't even buy a gun most likely. But I know if you live in some bad areas guns are beneficial for your safety especially if someone broke in.

[Sapphire]

Yea, let's allow people to buy guns to commit their first crime and then try to take them back after the crime is committed.
Someone could buy a gun tomorrow and develop dementia in a few months so it's no use saying "oh, its ok. We tested them and they dont have anything wrong with them" at the time of the sale.
And the likelihood of a man killing his wifes lover is increased when he has easy access to a firearm.

[Underground_Network]

Yes, but you have to define easy access. Look at it this way, drugs are illegal/banned, but people still manage to get their hands on them. If you make guns illegal for personal use (in other words only allow cops and/or military personnel to have guns), people will still get their hands on them. As they say, making something illegal just makes it more tempting/thrilling to attempt to do and/or acquire (if it is an object that is made illegal)

[Sapphire]

I define easy access as having a gun lying around the house. Maybe in a box on a shelf or in a drawer. But in the house nonetheless.

It's like when I want to cut really badly and I have blades in the house, it's a lot easier for me to cut. So logically, if a guy has a gun in the house and realises his wife has been cheating on him. He will find it easier to grab the gun and shoot him than having to go and buy the gun to go and shoot him.

[Octo22]

Armed police cannot be around you 24/7. If someone is breaking into your house its going to take a few minutes for them to get there (if you're able to call them) and if you own a gun its a great way to protect yourself.

This is what we call "I live in the U.S. and C.N.N. has me fearing everyone and their cat."

I've left my door unlocked for the better part of 6 years, all of them. Has it affected me? Nope HOWEVER, if I knew all my neighbours and anyone in the country had easy access to guns, those doors would be locked tighter than pandoras box.

When guns are banned, it removes them from law abiding citizens. Others will get them on the black market and get them anyway or build their own gun-like weapons. The citizens won't be any safer from criminals who will break the law anyway, they will only be left without defense.

When you can't get guns, it does get TOUGHER for them. You act as if it'll still be just as easy to go in and get a gun from a k-mart. Most people committing small crimes wouldn't want the potential minimum of a 10 year sentence just because they brought a gun. Besides what thugs bring guns into your house? Seriously for a house robbing they'd just need a bat. But wait? EVERYONE owns guns. Guess if I'm robbing you, I SHOULD BRING A BIGGER GUN. But what if you have a huge gun? Well I'll just bring Ak's.
escalation..escalation..escalation..etc.

As they say, making something illegal just makes it more tempting/thrilling to attempt to do and/or acquire (if it is an object that is made illegal)

But the drug people are like "I CAN GET HIGH OFF THIS"
The gun "I CAN COMMIT CRIMES AND GET A 10 YEAR!!!"

I know people in my local area who are very "large" drug dealers, and they've stated the only thing they'd never touch is guns. Because then you go from a fine for possession, to 10 years jail minimum.

[Everglow]

Interesting. Sound's like Canada puts the crackdown on firearm possession ;) The US could benefit from taking notes.

Strict regulation of gun sales and heavy fines and jail-time for offenders sounds like a smart plan. No wonder Canadian gun crime rates are significantly lower than the rates of the United States.

[Octo22]

Now I'm not 100% sure on this, so no quoting. But from what little I remember of a Law class way back, if I were to rob a bank and have a knife for threatening purposes, I get a max of 2 years?

If I have a gun on my, even if HIDDEN, or threaten to have a gun / imply it, minimum 10 years.

[Maverick]

This is what we call "I live in the U.S. and C.N.N. has me fearing everyone and their cat."
No, its called a different opinion. Do not belittle it as something spout off from CNN. I don't appreciate your presumptuous attitude.

I've left my door unlocked for the better part of 6 years, all of them. Has it affected me? Nope HOWEVER, if I knew all my neighbours and anyone in the country had easy access to guns, those doors would be locked tighter than pandoras box.
You live in a good neighborhood, what's your point? The entire country is not like that. You can't just take your small bubble of a neighborhood and think everywhere else is like that.

When you can't get guns, it does get TOUGHER for them. You act as if it'll still be just as easy to go in and get a gun from a k-mart. Most people committing small crimes wouldn't want the potential minimum of a 10 year sentence just because they brought a gun. Besides what thugs bring guns into your house? Seriously for a house robbing they'd just need a bat. But wait? EVERYONE owns guns. Guess if I'm robbing you, I SHOULD BRING A BIGGER GUN. But what if you have a huge gun? Well I'll just bring Ak's.
escalation..escalation..escalation..etc.
And you act as if guns will easily be eliminated with a magic wand. They'll still be around and there will always be someone who will see an oppurtunity to make a profit by starting a black market.

[Underground_Network]

Wow, for once I agree with Anthony. I am just utterly stunned. Making something illegal or harder to gain access to does not necessarily make it that much less of a threat. If say, guns are made illegal in the US and somehow magically no Americans have guns, they just suddenly, *poof* disappear, what if an illegal alien, someone who illegally got into the country has a gun. They break into your house, what are you to do? They got that gun somewhere else, in a different country, and no U.S. officials could've stopped them from purchasing that gun. Now because you're American you can't have access to a gun, now all the sudden, until law enforcement officials can track him down, he can just rob anyone and everyone, because none of them have protection from a gun, because none of them have a gun themselves.

[Octo22]

The problem I see with all these pro-gun arguments, is they all rely on the "well what if!" argument.

I was trying to make a ludicrous exaggeration of it for effect, but the whole gun debate seems to already fit.

"what if someone breaks into my house with an armored vehicle, I should have full right to bear a bazooka to protect myself"

"what if al-qaeda launches a missile and it happens to hit near my neighbourhood, should I not get my own missile defence system?"

Sorry for not fearing everything in the world. :/

What if someone breaks into my house with a gun? Would I want a gun? No. Chances are he'd get the drop on you anyway. I'll take calling the police and hiding somewhere for 300 alex :P

[Underground_Network]

There is a much higher chance that someone is to break into your house with a gun, even if it is made illegal, as it is much easier to conceal. Your what-if systems are truly extreme exaggerations, the possibility of those occurring are slim-to-none, while the possibility of someone breaking into your house with a gun, even if it is made illegal and hard to acquire, is much, much higher. So no, are what-if scenarios are nowhere near extreme, if anything they are very, very logical and possible.

[Octo22]

There is a much higher chance that someone is to break into your house with a gun

What are the odds of that. Honestly. Can you give any statistics on how often house robberies occur, besides of what we hear on the news?

Car jacking used to be a major fear, hundreds of stations reported it. Turns out you were more likely to (if memory serves from the documentary) get killed by a plane than you were having your car jacked.

[Octo22]

And just to clarify, I can see why you're arguing people living in high crime rate areas should have the right to a gun. But why even live there then?

Besides I've seen enough lawsuits in the states from burglers getting beat up / shot at and WINNING.

Rethink your whole system plzkthxbye.

[Maverick]

You say that as if people want to live there. Sometimes its not feasible to just move.

[Octo22]

You say that as if people want to live there. Sometimes its not feasible to just move.

So because some people are stuck in shitty locations everyone should be allowed guns?


Okay just answer me this. Finland practically gives everyone a gun, lowest crime rates.

Canada, no 2nd amendment, yet we don't seem to have these giant fiasco's with armed robberies.

Why? Why can every country basically work without having such a large crime rate/fear as your country seems to have.

[Maverick]

lol funny how you twisted that. Plus you exaggerate a bit saying everyone has guns. Not everyone has guns.

Cody covered the Finland part and for Canada, I can't speak for other countries. I guess you can say its the same reason America doesn't have socialized healthcare unlike Canada. Just a different culture.

Plus, its not the crimminals pro-gun people are completely worried about, its also the government. The government should fear its citizens, not the other way around. If you can recall Nazi Germany did a lot of gun control record keeping and banned them.

[Octo22]

I'd rather have a government and it's citizens live in peace, neither in fear.

So you think that your gun gives you protection from the government? Or a say of some sort? Or is this one of those "on a larger scale we could make a difference should their ever be a revolution!"?

[Maverick]

Well this peace you want is unrealistic and impossible. There has to be some weight of authority and citizens do deserve some leverage.

What I am saying is should the government ever become tyrannical, the citizens can have means of protection and defense.

[Sapphire]

I appreciate that simply outlawing guns doesn't make them vanish. I mean, drugs are outlawed and yet they are still out on the streets. I just think that once something like this is made legal then attitudes towards them change and IMO in this instance it would not be a change for the better.

[madness]

Plus, its not the crimminals pro-gun people are completely worried about, its also the government. The government should fear its citizens, not the other way around. If you can recall Nazi Germany did a lot of gun control record keeping and banned them.

Yes, i disagree with almost everything Nazi, but this was defiantly the RIGHT thing to do. Before they came to power their were mass armed revolts from the sparticists(<cant remember the name) who were communist, who were armed. There was also a revolt from the friedcorps, who were armed. When these partys revolted against a democratic government which was their before Hitler the industry basically stopped, there were gun battles in streets and the politicians couldn't even go to the capital city.