Happy Birthday, America!

[Walter Powers]

This coming week, the United States of America celebrates it's 237th year of independence from the British Empire. On July 4th, 1776, the Continetal Congress ratified the Declaration of Independance. This Independance Day holiday not only commemorates the lives of those brave soldiers who fought for our sovereignty, but also the birth of the greatest country in the history of the world. I think we should use this moment to reflect on how far we've come as a nation, where we are going, and how we can improve the prospects of our future.

http://socialjusticenow.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/american-flag.jpg

I believe that America is at a crossroads right now. If we don't turn at the intersection, we will fall off a cliff into poverty, dependance, uncontrollable debt, and loss of our superpower status, which will ultimately herald the end of this great republic. If things don't change, America's economic picture in 10 years will look very similar to that of Greece, with it's 25% unemployment rate. That is not a good thing for America, or overall global economic and military stability. We are the fabric holding the world together, and it will likely fall apart without us. If major changes don't occur, this IS the world you will be raising your children and retiring in (assuming you can afford to).

However, if we can muster the strength to turn on the crossroad, things can get better. If we do take steps to better our future, redevelop a sense of personal responsibility and the drive towards the American dream, we can fix this. If we can elect people who actually acknowledge how dire the situation has become, this can change. I'm not jumping ship to the Republic of Alaska yet; I still believe in the promise of America. Do you?

http://static.onemansblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/declaration-of-independence.jpg

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."
- Benjamin Franklin

[Camazotz]

... This Independance Day holiday not only commemorates the lives of those brave soldiers who fought for our sovereignty, but also the birth of the greatest country in the history of the world.

I figured things were going to start turning awful preachy after this. Meh, I don't like mixing politics with holidays. Independence Day is a day of celebration and remembrance and appreciation. I prefer to not be swayed by rhetoric and pathos. Thanks for the post, but I'll pass on the message.

[WickedWeekend]

Other than arguing about the validity of the statement that says that our country is the best ever, I don't see much room for debate here. Sure, we were raised upon fantastic values, besides the fact of slavery, but this country has gone to shit.

If Obama can't get his shit together, or a future President can't, the Constitution won't mean a thing. The government can't even see to the 1st Amendment that gay marriage is okay. Happy Birthday, America, I guess.

[britishboy]

just out of curiosity why do you Americans celibate independence so much?

[Walter Powers]

just out of curiosity why do you Americans celibate independence so much?

Because we're glad we no longer have to deal with you British redcoat bullies :p

Joking.

It's not just the independance of our nation we're celebrating. It's also in some respects, a celebration of our national principals that tyranny is wrong and every person has certain rights given to them by nature, among other things. I believe it's also a tribute to the Patriots who died in our Revuolutionary War.

[britishboy]

Because we're glad we still don't have to deal with you British bullies :p

Joking.

It's not just the independance of our nation we're celebrating. It's also in some respects, a celebration of our national principals that tyranny is wrong and every person has certain rights given to them by nature, among other things. I believe it's also a tribute to those who died in the Revoultion.

its alright us brits was a bitch:p and from a foreigners point of view I just see it as a bit odd, thanks for explaining:)

[Walter Powers]

its alright us brits was a bitch:p and from a foreigners point of view I just see it as a bit odd, thanks for explaining:)

You don't have a national holiday?

[Left Now]

Well,happy birthday America!I hope you be able to let other countries to live for themselves too like you yourself.

[Cygnus]

Yay they're gonna spend a pointless amount of money in fireworks and hope not as many people get injured this year! The US is gone in a few years so enjoy for now!

[britishboy]

You don't have a national holiday?

not celebrating independence, the last time we were governed was by the romans, around 2000 years ago I believe

Yay they're gonna spend a pointless amount of money in fireworks and hope not as many people get injured this year! The US is gone in a few years so enjoy for now!

let me guess.. another communist?

[Walter Powers]

not celebrating independence, the last time we were governed was by the romans, around 2000 years ago I believe

I understand that. But I mean do you have any national holidays of any sort? Like in America, Indepandance Day isn't our only one. We also have Labor Day, Memorial Day, and Veterans Day, which most people get off work, too.

[britishboy]

I understand that. But I mean do you have any national holidays of any sort? Like in America, Indepandance Day isn't our only one. We also have Labor Day, Memorial Day, and Veterans Day, which most people get off work, too.

yeah we have a few, such as poppy day, remembering all those who died in the world wars and current conflicts

[Left Now]

Surely they must have holidays like these,every country has.

[Origami]

Yes. Let's celebrate our independence while tarnishing our flag through several violations of our Flag Code. Woo.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.
The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery", or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins).
The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, firefighters, police officers, and members of patriotic organizations.
The flag should never have any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind placed on it or attached to it.
In a parade, the flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle, railroad train, or boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.

[Cygnus]

let me guess.. another communist?

Not at all, not liking the US doesn't mean I am communist.

[britishboy]

Not at all, not liking the US doesn't mean I am communist.

and why is it you dont like the us?

[Cygnus]

and why is it you dont like the us?

Because of the fact that they believe they are the most important thing ever and that other countries don't exist. Because people brag about the US army. They interfere with every other country and send troops even to suck oil out. Because the people are compulsory consumerists that are spoilt. Because people are not happy even though they have more than the average person in the world could hope to have. And finally, because people from the US discriminate and stereotype against all of latin america.

[Walter Powers]

Because of the fact that they believe they are the most important thing ever and that other countries don't exist. Because people brag about the US army. They interfere with every other country and send troops even to suck oil out. Because the people are compulsory consumerists that are spoilt. Because people are not happy even though they have more than the average person in the world could hope to have. And finally, because people from the US discriminate and stereotype against all of latin america.

We do?

[britishboy]

Because of the fact that they believe they are the most important thing ever and that other countries don't exist. Because people brag about the US army. They interfere with every other country and send troops even to suck oil out. Because the people are compulsory consumerists that are spoilt. Because people are not happy even though they have more than the average person in the world could hope to have. And finally, because people from the US discriminate and stereotype against all of latin america.

firstly stereotypes, I have an american friend and he is the nicest person you will ever meet, you have a point with your foreign policy argument however you can not blane the people for that, is it their fault for being richer? yoy say they stereotype but clearly, your the stereotyping one

[PinkFloyd]

just out of curiosity why do you Americans celibate independence so much?

We've been doing it for a really long time I guess.

[Capto]

Yey America. Happy 237th anniversary to the revolution that spanked eurocentrism right in its ass. Happy 237th to the signing one of the most influential pieces of revolutionary statements in history.

Oh yes, happy 237th anniversary to the US of A too.

[Cygnus]

We do?

Extremely more often than you think.

[Capto]

not celebrating independence, the last time we were governed was by the romans, around 2000 years ago I believe



let me guess.. another communist?

Wouldn't it have been the Normans? :/

And not liking America has nothing to do with communism, FYI.

[Cygnus]

firstly stereotypes, I have an american friend and he is the nicest person you will ever meet, you have a point with your foreign policy argument however you can not blane the people for that, is it their fault for being richer? yoy say they stereotype but clearly, your the stereotyping one

I say they stereotype because you have no idea how many times I have been called a spick, mexican, drug dealer, communist, and more by gringos.

[britishboy]

I say they stereotype because you have no idea how many times I have been called a spick, mexican, drug dealer, communist, and more by gringos.
there are bad people in ALL countries

[Harry Smith]

let me guess.. another communist?

Disliking America doesn't make you a communist, you really need to think

[britishboy]

Wouldn't it have been the Normans? :/

And not liking America has nothing to do with communism, FYI.

I really dont care who last invaded us and fair enough but generally anti americans are communists

[Harry Smith]

I really dont care who last invaded us and fair enough but generally anti americans are communists

No, America has it's own communist party, as does Britain, France and many other countries. America's last major land war was fought against a very capitalist enemy- Iraq. The high proportion of anti-Americans are found in the middle east. You can't just assume that communists hate america

[britishboy]

No, America has it's own communist party, as does Britain, France and many other countries. America's last major land war was fought against a very capitalist enemy- Iraq. The high proportion of anti-Americans are found in the middle east. You can't just assume that communists hate america

I think most communists do hate america, even if theyre american, america is very rich and obviously this annoys communists, but your right of course not all do and im not one to stereotype

[Capto]

I think most communists do hate america, even if theyre american, america is very rich and obviously this annoys communists, but your right of course not all do and im not one to stereotype

Communism is more economic and social than political. Just saying. We can break stereotypes if you're willing to.

[britishboy]

Communism is more economic and social than political. Just saying. We can break stereotypes if you're willing to.

do you hate the policies of America?

[Capto]

do you hate the policies of America?

Mainly no. I dislike our interventionist foreign policy immensely, and I obviously dislike our economic policies. But I do agree with most everything else.

[Walter Powers]

Extremely more often than you think.

A law nust passed our Senate giving ILLEGAL immigrants, mostly Hispanic, a free pass! That's hardly discrimination.

[Capto]

And finally, because people from the US discriminate and stereotype against all of latin america.

Where I've lived, Louisiana and California, there's no sort of discrimination and stereotyping, merely because of the racial integration in both states. So I really don't get what you're talking about.

[DerBear]

Nice one Origami :)

Happy Birthday America!

[WaffleSingSong]

Happy birthday to a great nation that I am proud to call my home :)

(Even though I do admit it can use a little improvement with our Jingoism and Laissesz faire policies, other than that I love it :D)

[Sugaree]

Much like Camazotz, I think I'll pass on the message after "the greatest country in the world" bit. I think it's a bit self-centered and pompous to declare one's country "the greatest". That only ignores the problems you face. However, as an American myself, I don't find great joy in Independence Day. While yes, it does mark a significant event in the history of the world and the nation, it brings up a lot of old wounds. The slaughter of the Native Americans, slavery, discrimination of ethnic/religious groups (Catholics and Muslims being the two prime examples), and plenty of other things keep me from holding any big amount of pride in this nation.

While I'm aware that all of this was long ago and should be left where it is, I don't think it's as simple as that. For Independence Day, we should just remember all the good and bad our country has done in its 237 years of existence. I don't see a remembrance day for the Battle of Wounded Knee or the lynchings of blacks. But we have remembrance days for soldiers of unjust wars where we were declared "winner". Until the United States fully realizes the pain and anguish it has caused, I don't think I'll ever be "proud" of being an American. I'm grateful to be an American because of the liberty it has given to me as an individual, but I'm not proud of the history of the country, nor am I too fond of what might be in our future.

[tovaris]

ingrates trators and murdarers. First they slaughter the native populatiin, than they shut out their cretor and at last hold the world hostage with bombs.
Puj

[Jess]

ingrates(?) traitors and murderers. First they slaughter the native population, then they shut out their creator and at last hold the world hostage with bombs.
Puj

I barely understood that...corrections made...anyways

What do you mean by "shut out their creator"?

[Capto]

United Kingdom of Great Britain.

[Jess]

Ah I see okay. Thanks


Happy Birthday, America. Love you even though you have many faults and sometimes you make me want to live in Canada, my birth country >_>.....

[Walter Powers]

Much like Camazotz, I think I'll pass on the message after "the greatest country in the world" bit. I think it's a bit self-centered and pompous to declare one's country "the greatest". That only ignores the problems you face. However, as an American myself, I don't find great joy in Independence Day. While yes, it does mark a significant event in the history of the world and the nation, it brings up a lot of old wounds. The slaughter of the Native Americans, slavery, discrimination of ethnic/religious groups (Catholics and Muslims being the two prime examples), and plenty of other things keep me from holding any big amount of pride in this nation.

While I'm aware that all of this was long ago and should be left where it is, I don't think it's as simple as that. For Independence Day, we should just remember all the good and bad our country has done in its 237 years of existence. I don't see a remembrance day for the Battle of Wounded Knee or the lynchings of blacks. But we have remembrance days for soldiers of unjust wars where we were declared "winner". Until the United States fully realizes the pain and anguish it has caused, I don't think I'll ever be "proud" of being an American. I'm grateful to be an American because of the liberty it has given to me as an individual, but I'm not proud of the history of the country, nor am I too fond of what might be in our future.

If you really aren't proud of being American, move. I mean it. This is degrading to every person who has risked their life for your rights. It is so annoying to me how people don't realize how great of a life they have because of others sacrifices; you don't even think we are the greatest nation? Come on, man. True, some bad things have gone on in America, but it is a dwarf compared to what has happened in every other corner of this world.

And it's not like we don't remember the bad events that have gone on. You're also wrong about that. Ever heard of "Pearl Harbor Rememberance Day" or "Black History Month"? Guess you don't. Don't be a hypocrite or an anti patriot:

[Southside]

If you really aren't proud of being American, move. I mean it. This is degrading to every person who has risked their life for your rights. It is so annoying to me how people don't realize how great of a life they have because of others sacrifices; you don't even think we are the greatest nation? Come on, man. True, some bad things have gone on in America, but it is a dwarf compared to what has happened in every other corner of this world.

And it's not like we don't remember the bad events that have gone on. You're also wrong about that. Ever heard of "Pearl Harbor Rememberance Day" or "Black History Month"? Guess you don't. Don't be a hypocrite or an anti patriot:

Where's the rememberance day for the couple thousand Iraqi's killed by the US? Where's the remeberance day for the children dying in Gaza due to US taxpayer funded Israeli military bombardments? Where's the rememberance day for the couple hundred of my innocent countrymen(Panamanians) who died in the US invasion? Where's the remeberance day for the 5,000+ people who've been killed on the streets of Chicago in the last 20 years? No sympathy for them I guess:(

We are not the "greatest" we are the most powerful, and most influential I will say that. Great countries dont committ and fund genocide and war, since America has exsisted we've only had 27 years of peace. Dont come at me with the "We have to defend ourselves" bullshit because we havent been directly attacked by another country since WW2. I respect America, and I have the ultimate respect for our service people(I plan to become one when im older)though I cant call us great when we've done so much inhumane BS in the last 20 or so years. As my favorite rapper says "I love the place I live but I hate the people in charge", which basically describes my view of America. America's "rights or freedom" are not under threat from terrorist, stop listening to Bush. I see the government as the biggest aggressor in the world...

Though more importantly, July 4th is my birthday :P

[Sugaree]

If you really aren't proud of being American, move. I mean it. This is degrading to every person who has risked their life for your rights. It is so annoying to me how people don't realize how great of a life they have because of others sacrifices; you don't even think we are the greatest nation? Come on, man. True, some bad things have gone on in America, but it is a dwarf compared to what has happened in every other corner of this world.

And it's not like we don't remember the bad events that have gone on. You're also wrong about that. Ever heard of "Pearl Harbor Rememberance Day" or "Black History Month"? Guess you don't. Don't be a hypocrite or an anti patriot:

Oh I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve? Sorry, I quite like living in a nation that affords me the freedom of speech I don't have in many other countries to piss people like you off :rolleyes:

[Camazotz]

Yes. Let's celebrate our independence while tarnishing our flag through several violations of our Flag Code. Woo.

A flag is just a thing. It's propaganda more than anything. It's an idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHKObRq-iE

Because of the fact that they believe they are the most important thing ever and that other countries don't exist.

No, just because you've had bad experiences with bad people, doesn't make America a bad place.

Because people brag about the US army.

A lot of people do this, but a lot of people also criticize the US military.

They interfere with every other country and send troops even to suck oil out.

Eh, I'll give you this one.

Because the people are compulsory consumerists that are spoilt. Because people are not happy even though they have more than the average person in the world could hope to have.

That's our culture. We don't know anything else. How can you expect the average American teenager who owns new clothes, has food every day, gets new technology, has access to education and medicine to understand what third world countries are going through? We don't know what we have; we expect what we see from Hollywood, and when we don't get it, we thing we're missing something. (Most) Teenagers in America just don't know what suffering is. I have no idea how you can be ignorant enough to not understand that; it's just as bad of an understanding of the world around us as we have it.

And finally, because people from the US discriminate and stereotype against all of latin america.

Again: No. Do some people discriminate? Yes. And don't take it personally, people hate all sorts of people, gays, blacks, Mexicans, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Native American, fat people, women, Republicans, Democrats, retarded people, Jews, Atheists, Catholics...

The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on... Don't think you have it worse than some people from those other groups. We've got our share of great, amazing, caring people, and our share of really just despicable people. Stop judging Americans as a whole just like how the Americans you've met judged Latin Americans as a whole. You sound just as racist as them.

I say they stereotype because you have no idea how many times I have been called a spick, mexican, drug dealer, communist, and more by gringos.

I believe that. So if I came into your neighborhood, I shouldn't expect to be called names? Bad people live everywhere.

Where I've lived, Louisiana and California, there's no sort of discrimination and stereotyping, merely because of the racial integration in both states. So I really don't get what you're talking about.

This is pretty much a majority of America.

Much like Camazotz, I think I'll pass on the message after "the greatest country in the world" bit. I think it's a bit self-centered and pompous to declare one's country "the greatest". That only ignores the problems you face. However, as an American myself, I don't find great joy in Independence Day. While yes, it does mark a significant event in the history of the world and the nation, it brings up a lot of old wounds. The slaughter of the Native Americans, slavery, discrimination of ethnic/religious groups (Catholics and Muslims being the two prime examples), and plenty of other things keep me from holding any big amount of pride in this nation.

While I'm aware that all of this was long ago and should be left where it is, I don't think it's as simple as that. For Independence Day, we should just remember all the good and bad our country has done in its 237 years of existence. I don't see a remembrance day for the Battle of Wounded Knee or the lynchings of blacks. But we have remembrance days for soldiers of unjust wars where we were declared "winner". Until the United States fully realizes the pain and anguish it has caused, I don't think I'll ever be "proud" of being an American. I'm grateful to be an American because of the liberty it has given to me as an individual, but I'm not proud of the history of the country, nor am I too fond of what might be in our future.

I agree. We've had our share of good and our share of bad. Here's a routine of George Carlin on national pride and just how stupid it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA

If you really aren't proud of being American, move. I mean it.

U mad bro? Also, this video applies to you ^^

This is degrading to every person who has risked their life for your rights.

The very people fighting for my right to say that blind national pride is dumb?

It is so annoying to me how people don't realize how great of a life they have because of others sacrifices; you don't even think we are the greatest nation? Come on, man. True, some bad things have gone on in America, but it is a dwarf compared to what has happened in every other corner of this world.

How can you judge greatness? Who are you to decide what makes a country "great?" It has its good aspects and its bad aspects. I agree that we have it great compared to most countries, but its not so good in other respects.

And it's not like we don't remember the bad events that have gone on. You're also wrong about that. Ever heard of "Pearl Harbor Rememberance Day" or "Black History Month"? Guess you don't. Don't be a hypocrite or an anti patriot:

Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day doesn't count. That's a "USA is a victim" holiday. No, we're referring to a "We fucked up" holiday. We don't remember all the injustices that others have suffered on account of us. Do you really think "Black History Month" can make up for all the horrible things that happened in America to Blacks? Not even close. And even now it's just become commercialized; there's not enough review of all the negative parts in America's history because we want to brainwash kids into believing that "America's #1!" No, we've been somewhat mediocre for a long part of our history.

Also, on a side note, I totally understand BritishBoy's mistake in assuming Cygnus was a Communist since the most vocal Anti-Americans on this forum are Communist. Since he's 14 and pro-America, he doesn't have much knowledge on others' perceptions of America.

[Walter Powers]

Where's the rememberance day for the couple thousand Iraqi's killed by the US? Where's the remeberance day for the children dying in Gaza due to US taxpayer funded Israeli military bombardments? Where's the rememberance day for the couple hundred of my innocent countrymen(Panamanians) who died in the US invasion? Where's the remeberance day for the 5,000+ people who've been killed on the streets of Chicago in the last 20 years? No sympathy for them I guess:(

We are not the "greatest" we are the most powerful, and most influential I will say that. Great countries dont committ and fund genocide and war, since America has exsisted we've only had 27 years of peace. Dont come at me with the "We have to defend ourselves" bullshit because we havent been directly attacked by another country since WW2. I respect America, and I have the ultimate respect for our service people(I plan to become one when im older)though I cant call us great when we've done so much inhumane BS in the last 20 or so years. As my favorite rapper says "I love the place I live but I hate the people in charge", which basically describes my view of America. America's "rights or freedom" are not under threat from terrorist, stop listening to Bush. I see the government as the biggest aggressor in the world...

Though more importantly, July 4th is my birthday :P

Do you honestly think that they're should be a holiday to honor every person who has ever died? NO! Holidays aren't for mourning!

The bottom line is that we are the fabric holding this world together. Without our strength, this middle eastern conflicts would erupt into much much more then that. Stop demonizing the very people who are ensuring your rights are protected!

And we were attacked by another country on September 11, 2001. You cannot deny that. True, it was Al Qaeda, an organization but they were so closely affiliated with the then Afghan government they might as well have been working for them. That attack killed one of my father's best friends, who worked in the Pentagon.

You say America has done all these horrendous things, but you have no idea how many good things we do. We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake! When we capture an area, we turn it over to it's rightful owners. We also save thousands and thousands of foreigners every year, and bring millions under our wings and into our family.

I think you need to watch this Youtube video on what makes America great. I think the first part that talks about our military sums up the point I'm trying to make:
Do you honestly think that they're should be a holiday to honor every person who has ever died? NO! Holidays aren't for mourning!

The bottom line is that we are the fabric holding this world together. Without our strength, this middle eastern conflicts would erupt into much much more then that. Stop demonizing the very people who are ensuring your rights are protected!

And we were attacked by another country on September 11, 2001. You cannot deny that. True, it was Al Qaeda, an organization but they were so closely affiliated with the then Afghan government they might as well have been working for them. That attack killed one of my father's best friends, who worked in the Pentagon.

You say America has done all these horrendous things, but you have no idea how many good things we do. We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake! When we capture an area, we turn it over to it's rightful owners. We also save thousands and thousands of foreigners every year, and bring millions under our wings and into our family.

I think you need to watch this Youtube video on what makes America great. I think the first part that talks about our military sums up the point I'm trying to make:
nuv0K8H8ILM

If you aren't proud to be an American, you have to be a very pessimistic person. And to say that your birthday is more important then the founding of our country...that's just plain arrogant.


A flag is just a thing. It's propaganda more than anything. It's an idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxHKObRq-iE



No, just because you've had bad experiences with bad people, doesn't make America a bad place.



A lot of people do this, but a lot of people also criticize the US military.



Eh, I'll give you this one.



That's our culture. We don't know anything else. How can you expect the average American teenager who owns new clothes, has food every day, gets new technology, has access to education and medicine to understand what third world countries are going through? We don't know what we have; we expect what we see from Hollywood, and when we don't get it, we thing we're missing something. (Most) Teenagers in America just don't know what suffering is. I have no idea how you can be ignorant enough to not understand that; it's just as bad of an understanding of the world around us as we have it.



Again: No. Do some people discriminate? Yes. And don't take it personally, people hate all sorts of people, gays, blacks, Mexicans, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Native American, fat people, women, Republicans, Democrats, retarded people, Jews, Atheists, Catholics...

The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on... Don't think you have it worse than some people from those other groups. We've got our share of great, amazing, caring people, and our share of really just despicable people. Stop judging Americans as a whole just like how the Americans you've met judged Latin Americans as a whole. You sound just as racist as them.



I believe that. So if I came into your neighborhood, I shouldn't expect to be called names? Bad people live everywhere.



This is pretty much a majority of America.



I agree. We've had our share of good and our share of bad. Here's a routine of George Carlin on national pride and just how stupid it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA



U mad bro? Also, this video applies to you ^^



The very people fighting for my right to say that blind national pride is dumb?



How can you judge greatness? Who are you to decide what makes a country "great?" It has its good aspects and its bad aspects. I agree that we have it great compared to most countries, but its not so good in other respects.



Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day doesn't count. That's a "USA is a victim" holiday. No, we're referring to a "We fucked up" holiday. We don't remember all the injustices that others have suffered on account of us. Do you really think "Black History Month" can make up for all the horrible things that happened in America to Blacks? Not even close. And even now it's just become commercialized; there's not enough review of all the negative parts in America's history because we want to brainwash kids into believing that "America's #1!" No, we've been somewhat mediocre for a long part of our history.

Also, on a side note, I totally understand BritishBoy's mistake in assuming Cygnus was a Communist since the most vocal Anti-Americans on this forum are Communist. Since he's 14 and pro-America, he doesn't have much knowledge on others' perceptions of America.

You should check out the above video, too. And a question: What other countries have a "we messed up" holiday of any sort? Russia and Germany have done exponentially worse then anything that's ever gone on here, and they don't have one.

[Southside]

Do you honestly think that they're should be a holiday to honor every person who has ever died? NO! Holidays aren't for mourning!

The bottom line is that we are the fabric holding this world together. Without our strength, this middle eastern conflicts would erupt into much much more then that. Stop demonizing the very people who are ensuring your rights are protected!

And we were attacked by another country on September 11, 2001. You cannot deny that. True, it was Al Qaeda, an organization but they were so closely affiliated with the then Afghan government they might as well have been working for them. That attack killed one of my father's best friends, who worked in the Pentagon.

You say America has done all these horrendous things, but you have no idea how many good things we do. We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake! When we capture an area, we turn it over to it's rightful owners. We also save thousands and thousands of foreigners every year, and bring millions under our wings and into our family.

I think you need to watch this Youtube video on what makes America great. I think the first part that talks about our military sums up the point I'm trying to make:
Do you honestly think that they're should be a holiday to honor every person who has ever died? NO! Holidays aren't for mourning!

The bottom line is that we are the fabric holding this world together. Without our strength, this middle eastern conflicts would erupt into much much more then that. Stop demonizing the very people who are ensuring your rights are protected!

And we were attacked by another country on September 11, 2001. You cannot deny that. True, it was Al Qaeda, an organization but they were so closely affiliated with the then Afghan government they might as well have been working for them. That attack killed one of my father's best friends, who worked in the Pentagon.

You say America has done all these horrendous things, but you have no idea how many good things we do. We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake! When we capture an area, we turn it over to it's rightful owners. We also save thousands and thousands of foreigners every year, and bring millions under our wings and into our family.

I think you need to watch this Youtube video on what makes America great. I think the first part that talks about our military sums up the point I'm trying to make:
nuv0K8H8ILM

If you aren't proud to be an American, you have to be a very pessimistic person. And to say that your birthday is more important then the founding of our country...that's just plain arrogant.

When have my rights been threatened? The gov. and certain political groups are the biggest threat to my rights, not Al-Qaeda or any country. Two of my family members were 9/11 first responders, so dont give me a speech on 9/11Saying Al-Qaeda attacked us because they are "jealous" of our rights and freedom is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life.

Why the fuck do we need to be the world police in every god damn conflict? That's one problem I have with this government, do you think 9/11 would have happened if we didnt build massive US bases over in Saudi Arabia? Tell me, if China or Japan built a air base in your backyard would you be happy? Im not trying to justify any attacks on civilians, but why do you think countries like Canada and Switzerland have never been attacked? BECAUSE THEY KEEP TO THEMSELVES AND FOCUS ON DOMESTIC PROBLEMS.

Yes, we have helped millions in distress, I'm proud to say I've donated to the Salvation Army and Red Cross. Though, going and bombing countries and funding governments that bomb innocent countries is not helping at all, as you say "throwing money at the problem".

We make terrorist when we go bomb these Middle-Eastern countries. An example of this: A Afghan civilian's family member dies due to a US airstrike, hes goes to join the Taliban or other milita groups, because he wants to retaliate, who wouldnt?


All I want is for America to focus on DOMESTIC ISSUES, what if all the money on useless wars(Iraq) was invested into American industry or education? Shit even the space program, we could be on Mars by now! I have more city pride than American pride, ill be honest on that one. I just cant be proud of something that has ravaged millions of life, the bad things we've did outweigh the good ones. Im sorry if this goes against your conservative "AMERICA WE'RE NUMBER 1" type view of the world, we are not perfect, far from it and we will never be. Im proud to be American, im just not proud of our government and its policies.

On the video, the only "4 Unique things about America" that I am proud of are scientifcally, and economically. Im not dissing our military, I have tons of vets and active service members in my family, I actually plan on going to the state guard when im older. The man in the video also says we've responded only to aggression?.. Iraq in 03' was aggression? Panama in 89' was aggression? I somewhat agree with the Afghan War, though we should have been out of there already. On the economic part, China owns us my friend! so GDP doesnt mean much..

I'd like you to take a few minutes out of your morning(As I did) to watch a few videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1dDIrOCbUo What If China collected on US Debt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzRzaTljXI Your proud most of your tax dollars goes to the war and killing?

[Jevon]

Yay they're gonna spend a pointless amount of money in fireworks and hope not as many people get injured this year! The US is gone in a few years so enjoy for now!

Damn that's harsh...but whatever lolol

[James Bond]

Yay they're gonna spend a pointless amount of money in fireworks and hope not as many people get injured this year! The US is gone in a few years so enjoy for now!
That was a very "asshole" comment you made. The US I'm sure will live long just as England has, they just need to cut down their national debt to China.

The money spent on fireworks doesn't even need to be assessed. Fireworks probably cost a few million dollars, which is nothing. If the fire works were to cost $10 million, putting that money toward something else like military or education wouldn't make a single 0.001% difference. That is such small money in comparison.

Also, most businesses are the ones who put up the fireworks, businesses in NY, LA, and LV pay for the fireworks. The government doesn't give Wall Street or casinos money to buy fireworks, they pay for it themselves.

It's sad how misinformed you seem to be.
Well,happy birthday America!I hope you be able to let other countries to live for themselves too like you yourself.

It lets most countries enjoy freedom without being watched, but countries like Iran or Syria are just too dangerous to be left alone and unwatched.

[James Bond]

Much like Camazotz, I think I'll pass on the message after "the greatest country in the world" bit. I think it's a bit self-centered and pompous to declare one's country "the greatest". That only ignores the problems you face. However, as an American myself, I don't find great joy in Independence Day. While yes, it does mark a significant event in the history of the world and the nation, it brings up a lot of old wounds. The slaughter of the Native Americans, slavery, discrimination of ethnic/religious groups (Catholics and Muslims being the two prime examples), and plenty of other things keep me from holding any big amount of pride in this nation.

While I'm aware that all of this was long ago and should be left where it is, I don't think it's as simple as that. For Independence Day, we should just remember all the good and bad our country has done in its 237 years of existence. I don't see a remembrance day for the Battle of Wounded Knee or the lynchings of blacks. But we have remembrance days for soldiers of unjust wars where we were declared "winner". Until the United States fully realizes the pain and anguish it has caused, I don't think I'll ever be "proud" of being an American. I'm grateful to be an American because of the liberty it has given to me as an individual, but I'm not proud of the history of the country, nor am I too fond of what might be in our future.

Many have given their lives for America, and it's sad that you think they did it for nothing. Many people gave their lives even when they didn't agree, they gave their lives so that others can live free, safe, and have freedom and liberty.

I disagree that it's self centred having pride in ones country and saying its the best. Everyone is like that with their country, even people who weren't born in a certain country yet have family/ancestry from another country are like that (hope I got that across good. For example, if I live and was born and raised in England, yet I have family and ancestry from Germany, I could think Germany is the best country in the world).

[Cygnus]

Damn that's harsh...but whatever lolol

The truth is harsh most of the time

[Left Now]

It lets most countries enjoy freedom without being watched, but countries like Iran or Syria are just too dangerous to be left alone and unwatched.

Ah yeah,once again.At last Iran hasn't attacked 5 countries in just 40 years,like a country in western part of the globe,to see how dangerous it is.

[Harry Smith]

Ah yeah,once again.At last Iran hasn't attacked 5 countries in just 40 years,like a country in western part of the globe,to see how dangerous it is.

Iran has called for the genocide of Israel, they've supplied funding and training to Iraqi rebels in Basra, breaking nearly every diplomatic law after you sieged the US embassy and also the multiple war crimes committed against Iraq in the 80's

[Left Now]

Iran has called for the genocide of Israel, they've supplied funding and training to Iraqi rebels in Basra, breaking nearly every diplomatic law after you sieged the US embassy and also the multiple war crimes committed against Iraq in the 80's

Genocide or Destruction?I do not know what will you call the word "نابودی",but in Farsi it means destruction not genocide.Genocide means killing people and nobody in Iran has called for killing people of Israel.

You mean that US and UK didn't break diplomatic law in 1950's by making a coup in Iran and let Shah back,while it was under governing of a democratic government?

It looks like you haven't read about US embassy attack enough.It was not the police or military who attacked embassy,you can even see police even tried to prevent attackers if you take a look on videos about that event.
The attackers were a huge amount of university students and police failed to stop them from attacking the embassy,and after the capturing of the embassy ,those students found evidences which could prove that US embassy was a place for spying and supporting semi-military groups in Kurdistan.After that,the Hostages-crisis happened.

Hehe,your empty words just worth to laugh at them.In 80's Iraq attacked Iran,Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran,Iraq massacred a whole Kurdish village in Kurdistan state(Halabja),Iraq bombed Iranian cities,Iraq broke the first ceasefire and support MEK to enter Iran's borders,Iraq tortured Iranian children because of defending their homes,Iraq destroyed hospitals and medicine centers and also Iraq didn't pay for Iran-Iraq war to Iran because of the destruction which it caused.Can you tell me one of war crimes which Iran did against Iraq?

Iraqi rebels?Do not you know that they are in major Salafits who know killing Iranians deserves admiration and the minority of them are shias?Also,we are training Iraqi rebels?Oh i just saw Iranian army commanders training Iraqi security forces to secure cities like Karbalaa and Najaf from rebels attacks with Iranian security equipments and urban services recently, when i traveled to Iraq.

Also The Great School of Hawze has sent lots of conflict solvers to negotiate with Sunni and Shia groups who are against each other to solve the conflicts.You would better to complain Saudi Arabia because of supporting rebels in Basra because they are much closer to each other.

However this thread is about America and i just congratulated America because of its independence day from British Empire,and i just hoped he let others to be independent too.

[Southside]

Iran has called for the genocide of Israel, they've supplied funding and training to Iraqi rebels in Basra, breaking nearly every diplomatic law after you sieged the US embassy and also the multiple war crimes committed against Iraq in the 80's

US,Israel,NATO are any better?

US is funding Al-Qaeda rebels in Syria..No one whining about that..

US is funding Israel which has comitted MULTIPLE crimes against humanity. Israel is violating UN resolutions by building settlements in the West Bank. That doesnt matter right?

No one crying about the few hundred of my countrymen(Panamanians) killed in the 1989 US invasion. Not one tear shed for the Palestinians being denied access to water and other basic human nesscities.
NATO bombing civilian infrastructure in Libya..

See the thing I dont like about Western thinking is how hypocritical we are, its only OK when we do it. Soon as some other guys do it over in Africa or the Middle-East, it's internationally condemned and everyone calls them terrorist or tyrants. We are the biggest hypocrits in this world.

[Harry Smith]

Genocide or Destruction?I do not know what will you call the word "نابودی",but in Farsi it means destruction not genocide.Genocide means killing people and nobody in Iran has called for killing people of Israel.

You mean that US and UK didn't break diplomatic law in 1950's by making a coup in Iran and let Shah back,while it was under governing of a democratic government?

It looks like you haven't read about US embassy attack enough.It was not the police or military who attacked embassy,you can even see police even tried to prevent attackers if you take a look on videos about that event.
The attackers were a huge amount of university students and police failed to stop them from attacking the embassy,and after the capturing of the embassy ,those students found evidences which could prove that US embassy was a place for spying and supporting semi-military groups in Kurdistan.After that,the Hostages-crisis happened.

Hehe,your empty words just worth to laugh at them.In 80's Iraq attacked Iran,Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran,Iraq massacred a whole Kurdish village in Kurdistan state(Halabja),Iraq bombed Iranian cities,Iraq broke the first ceasefire and support MEK to enter Iran's borders,Iraq tortured Iranian children because of defending their homes,Iraq destroyed hospitals and medicine centers and also Iraq didn't pay for Iran-Iraq war to Iran because of the destruction which it caused.Can you tell me one of war crimes which Iran did against Iraq?

Iraqi rebels?Do not you know that they are in major Salafits who know killing Iranians deserves admiration and the minority of them are shias?Also,we are training Iraqi rebels?Oh i just saw Iranian army commanders training Iraqi security forces to secure cities like Karbalaa and Najaf from rebels attacks with Iranian security equipments and urban services recently, when i traveled to Iraq.

Also The Great School of Hawze has sent lots of conflict solvers to negotiate with Sunni and Shia groups who are against each other to solve the conflicts.You would better to complain Saudi Arabia because of supporting rebels in Basra because they are much closer to each other.

However this thread is about America and i just congratulated America because of its independence day from British Empire,and i just hoped he let others to be independent too.

It's widely know in western intelligence circles that Iran had supported anti-democratic groups in the south of Iran through funding, you've been training the Assad regime for the last two years.

I don't deny that Iraq commited war crimes but that doesn't justify Iranian crimes.

1) You attacked neutral shipping in the gulf region, which is breaking international law.

2) You used child soldiers which is also illegal under international law

3) You laid land mines in international waters

All of the above are war crimes, crimes that you asked to see.

It's not breaking international law to overthrow a government, I'll remind you that it was lead by clerics and the Army of Iran. We didn't break a single rule by funding these groups.

US,Israel,NATO are any better?

US is funding Al-Qaeda rebels in Syria..No one whining about that..

US is funding Israel which has comitted MULTIPLE crimes against humanity. Israel is violating UN resolutions by building settlements in the West Bank. That doesnt matter right?

No one crying about the few hundred of my countrymen(Panamanians) killed in the 1989 US invasion. Not one tear shed for the Palestinians being denied access to water and other basic human nesscities.
NATO bombing civilian infrastructure in Libya..

See the thing I dont like about Western thinking is how hypocritical we are, its only OK when we do it. Soon as some other guys do it over in Africa or the Middle-East, it's internationally condemned and everyone calls them terrorist or tyrants. We are the biggest hypocrits in this world.

1) The US is not funding al Qaeda groups, safe guards have been put in place to ensure that they provide support to the SFA not anti-western groups.
2)I never denied that Israel committed war crimes but that doesn't justify Iran wiping them out does it?
3) The US invasion was legal, your leader was a drug dealing pimp who killed his own people and under the 1979 treaty the US had every legal right to invade.

I just want to make sure you both know, you can't justify Iranian war crimes by saying that Israel did it first, that's not how it works. Iran is a dangerous rouge state

[Left Now]

1) You attacked neutral shipping in the gulf region, which is breaking international law.

2) You used child soldiers which is also illegal under international law

3) You laid land mines in international waters

All of the above are war crimes, crimes that you asked to see.

It's not breaking international law to overthrow a government, I'll remind you that it was lead by clerics and the Army of Iran. We didn't break a single rule by funding these groups.


1.Neutral ships are not neutral ships when they are in Iran's water borders without permission and near military islands.

2.Do you think we forced them?It is illegal if we force them to fight,but when they themselves beg to go and defend their country,we cannot stop them.If a country force children to fight for them in a war it is illegal.

3.Iraq threatened Iran that they would attack ports,Bandar Abbas,Boushehr,and Lenge while Iranian injured civilians were there under the flag of Red Crescent.Iran complained about it to UN but they only pleaded Iraq to reduce their attacks,so we laid mines in the waters of Bandar Abbas and Boushehr.Bandar Abbas and Boushehr are very close to international waters and maybe those mines moved from our water to international water because of not-good and instant engineering.

[Harry Smith]

1.Neutral ships are not neutral ships when they are in Iran's water borders without permission and near military islands.

2.Do you think we forced them?It is illegal if we force them to fight,but when they themselves beg to go and defend their country,we cannot stop them.If a country force children to fight for them in a war it is illegal.

3.Iraq threatened Iran that they would attack ports,Bandar Abbas,Boushehr,and Lenge while Iranian injured civilians were there under the flag of Red Crescent.Iran complained about it to UN but they only pleaded Iraq to reduce their attacks,so we laid mines in the waters of Bandar Abbas and Boushehr.Bandar Abbas and Boushehr are very close to international waters and maybe those mines moved from our water to international water because of not-good and instant engineering.

1) The oil tankers were in international waters, you attacked neutral shipping in international waters, that is illegal.

2) It's still illegal to use child soldiers even if they volunteer.

children who have not attained the age of fifteen years shall neither be recruited in the armed forces or groups nor allowed to take part in hostilities

Taken from the Geneva convention, it's a war crime plain and simple. You can't use children to clear mine fields even if they volunteer

3) You can't blame Iraq for Iranian war crimes, that's not how they work. It doesn't matter what Iraq did, you mined international waters and damaged over 500 commercial ships

[Southside]

It's widely know in western intelligence circles that Iran had supported anti-democratic groups in the south of Iran through funding, you've been training the Assad regime for the last two years.

I don't deny that Iraq commited war crimes but that doesn't justify Iranian crimes.

1) You attacked neutral shipping in the gulf region, which is breaking international law.

2) You used child soldiers which is also illegal under international law

3) You laid land mines in international waters

All of the above are war crimes, crimes that you asked to see.

It's not breaking international law to overthrow a government, I'll remind you that it was lead by clerics and the Army of Iran. We didn't break a single rule by funding these groups.



1) The US is not funding al Qaeda groups, safe guards have been put in place to ensure that they provide support to the SFA not anti-western groups.
2)I never denied that Israel committed war crimes but that doesn't justify Iran wiping them out does it?
3) The US invasion was legal, your leader was a drug dealing pimp who killed his own people and under the 1979 treaty the US had every legal right to invade.

I just want to make sure you both know, you can't justify Iranian war crimes by saying that Israel did it first, that's not how it works. Iran is a dangerous rouge state

How is Iran dangerous when they havent attacked ANYONE in the last few decades?
Let's list all the places Israel has attack shall we?

Sudan
Tunisia
Syria
Lebanon(Violates their airspace on a daily basis)
Gaza/Palestine
Egypt
Iraq
Iran(Going in and killing their nuclear scientist)

Iran never said they want to wipe Israel off the map, Ahmadinejad was quoting Ayatollah Khomeini, saying that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." Thats a threat? Source: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2012/03/israel-iran-rentoul

You know the funny thing about Noreiga is that in the 50's & 60's he was on the CIA payroll(Watch Panama Deception), now hes considered some enemy of the US. It's sick how we are buddy-buddy with someone one minute, then the next minutes they are "tyrants" and "terrorist"..

Most(If not majority) of the rebels in Syria are Al-Qaeda or Islamist linked, its only a few good guys and I doubt the CIA or whoever is running operations over there knows who from which.

[Harry Smith]

How is Iran dangerous when they havent attacked ANYONE in the last few decades?
Let's list all the places Israel has attack shall we?

Sudan
Tunisia
Syria
Lebanon(Violates their airspace on a daily basis)
Gaza/Palestine
Egypt
Iraq


Iran never said they want to wipe Israel off the map, Ahmadinejad was quoting Ayatollah homeini, saying that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." Thats a threat? Source: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2012/03/israel-iran-rentoul

You know the funny thing about Noreiga is that in the 50's & 60's he was on the CIA payroll(Watch Panama Deception), now hes considered some enemy of the US. It's sick how we are buddy-buddy with someone one minute, then the next minutes they are "tyrants" and "terrorist"..

Most(If not majority) of the rebels in Syria are Al-Qaeda or Islamist linked, its only a few good guys and I doubt the CIA or whoever is running operations over there knows who from which.

What? The CIA paid someone who wasn't honest. How could a spy agency do something so bad. You should write a letter of complaint.

Voilating air-space doesn't mean an attack, christ that would mean we attacked the Soviet union about 10,000 times, we use to test their borders, they would test ours.

Please answer this with a nice yes or no

Did the Arab states attack Israel on the day they were formed?

[Southside]

What? The CIA paid someone who wasn't honest. How could a spy agency do something so bad. You should write a letter of complaint.

Voilating air-space doesn't mean an attack, christ that would mean we attacked the Soviet union about 10,000 times, we use to test their borders, they would test ours.

Please answer this with a nice yes or no

Did the Arab states attack Israel on the day they were formed?

So if Iran flew some jets into UK airspace, the RAF would let them fly along happily? Come on...

Yes..Im refering to Israel in the last 20-30 years my friend.

Answer this, who is responsible for Iranian nuclear scientist dying in car bomb blast and being gun downed by people on motorcylces?

Why is Israel allowed to have nuclear weapons(400+ reportedly) but not Iran?

What if Iranian nuclear program is truly peaceful, how would you feel, would you still call for it's destruction?

Israel is the only Middle-Eastern state to have nukes, they are the biggest threat in that part of the world.

[Left Now]

1) The oil tankers were in international waters, you attacked neutral shipping in international waters, that is illegal.

2) It's still illegal to use child soldiers even if they volunteer.



Taken from the Geneva convention, it's a war crime plain and simple. You can't use children to clear mine fields even if they volunteer

3) You can't blame Iraq for Iranian war crimes, that's not how they work. It doesn't matter what Iraq did, you mined international waters and damaged over 500 commercial ships

They weren't children at all.Iranian volunteers for aiding army in battlefields were about 18-17 according to their birth certificates and 10-16 years old boys were just allowed to aid them with helping in back lines and not battlefields.However,some of below 17 years old guys went to battlefields illegally and were wanted by government to back;many of them got back,some of them got imprisoned by Iraq,and others got killed.There is no evidence for accusing Iran because of this.

Oil tankers were near Iran's military points and islands,for example near Ahwaz and Bandar Abbas,it is illegal for a ship to approach another country's naval military points,also about 340 of those commercial ships were carrying weapons;you cannot deny it because my uncle was one of those people who helped crews of damaged ships.

[Harry Smith]

So if Iran flew some jets into UK airspace, the RAF would let them fly along happily? Come on...

Yes..Im refering to Israel in the last 20-30 years my friend.

Answer this, who is responsible for Iranian nuclear scientist dying in car bomb blast and being gun downed by people on motorcylces?

Why is Israel allowed to have nuclear weapons(400+ reportedly) but not Iran?

What if Iranian nuclear program is truly peaceful, how would you feel, would you still call for it's destruction?

Israel is the only Middle-Eastern state to have nukes, they are the biggest threat in that part of the world.

1 Iran don't have the range

2) They would scramble jets to intercept them and escort them out, trust me I know someone who flew Nimrods in the 80's. They would fly it to the Russian border and turn off the electronics, they would then enter the airspace and turn on the electronics. Migs would appear in seconds. Airspace gets violated every day but you don't simply shoot down the plane straight away.

3) God knows who, the CIA, mossad, MI5, Pro monarchist groups, KGB, ISI. You can't just assume it was the Israelis, intelligence doesn't work like that. You need evidence.

4) If it's peaceful then they can keep it under UN regulations

5) 1949, that's all I'm going to say

[Sugaree]

Many have given their lives for America, and it's sad that you think they did it for nothing. Many people gave their lives even when they didn't agree, they gave their lives so that others can live free, safe, and have freedom and liberty.

Yet, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm using the right that was fought for by my ancestors and the right I inherited from them by birth. Nowhere in my post did I outright post that I'm not grateful for the sacrifices this country has made, I simply pointed out that we often ignore our faults - too often in many cases - and shouldn't be so proud of ourselves all the time.

Seriously, what is it with conservative or conservative-minded thinkers that always bash people for not holding up to THEIR standard of patriotism? I'm sorry that I don't piss red, white, and blue and shit the constitution when I get out of bed in the morning. Patriotism doesn't have to be held in such an extremist light. Be proud of your country for the good it has done, but don't turn a blind eye to what you've done that is wrong. It's a simple thing to do.

[Harry Smith]

They weren't children at all.Iranian volunteers for aiding army in battlefields were about 18-17 according to their birth certificates and 10-16 years old boys were just allowed to aid them with helping in back lines and not battlefields.However,some of below 17 years old guys went to battlefields illegally and were wanted by government to back;many of them got back,some of them got imprisoned by Iraq,and others got killed.There is no evidence for accusing Iran because of this.

Oil tankers were near Iran's military points and islands,for example near Ahwaz and Bandar Abbas,it is illegal for a ship to approach another country's naval military points,also about 340 of those commercial ships were carrying weapons;you cannot deny it because my uncle was one of those people who helped crews of damaged ships.

No, children were used to clear land mines. I can accuse Iran because the Iranian Miltary has a duty of care that is outlined in the 1929 Geneva convention and the 1907 hague convention. Iran can be charged because of this. Look at the quote I provided about child soldiers, I also found this extract from a Iranian newspaper called the Ettela'at.

, "Before entering the minefields, the children wrap themselves in blankets and they roll on the ground, so that their body parts stay together after the explosion of the mines and one can carry them to the graves

I can deny it, for all I know you don't have an uncle. You can't just use very biased sources such as that for a war crimes trial, you need documented evidence. Iran attacked Kuwaiti shipping in International water. You can't deny that.

The ships are allowed to carry arms in international waters, under international law a blockade of Iraq would be considered illegal. You also can't simply destroy a neutral ship if it enters your water, that's not how it works at all.

Accept that your country committed war crimes, prove that your not all brainwashed

[Left Now]

No, children were used to clear land mines. I can accuse Iran because the Iranian Miltary has a duty of care that is outlined in the 1929 Geneva convention and the 1907 hague convention. Iran can be charged because of this. Look at the quote I provided about child soldiers, I also found this extract from a Iranian newspaper called the Ettela'at.



I can deny it, for all I know you don't have an uncle. You can't just use very biased sources such as that for a war crimes trial, you need documented evidence. Iran attacked Kuwaiti shipping in International water. You can't deny that.

The ships are allowed to carry arms in international waters, under international law a blockade of Iraq would be considered illegal. You also can't simply destroy a neutral ship if it enters your water, that's not how it works at all.

Accept that your country committed war crimes, prove that your not all brainwashed

First of all,i have an uncle who got killed in Iran-Iraq war and also i have two other uncles who are now alive and one of them was a member of Iran oil company Red Crescent group who aided some of those crews,so do not tell lies about me.

Also,it looks like you didn't read that article completely.

You just have read that part?Then you are really close minded,because if you read the previous articles too in that newspaper,you will recognize that how did those children went to battlefields and how did they escape the military patrols who didn't let them to go and fight.

If you haven't read the other articles,then let me tell you that those children were in many operations with other soldiers,Attacks,defends,surviving and spying,and when there was an emergency operation,then everybody in that situation were soldiers,because there was no time to understand who was legally there or illegally there.

In some of the surviving operations,there were some lands full of mines and the Iranian forces didn't have special forces to refuse them,and so some of the members of their groups sacrificed themselves to make a clear way for others to pass.

Those children were members of those groups too in those emergency situations and they could decide to sacrifice themselves or let others to do this;nobody forced them to do this,but they understood that they can do something in defending their country with this act,so they did it.

Children who went to battlefields were illegally there and they begged the other soldiers to not say the officials that they are there.The government didn't want them to be there but they themselves wanted and did it.

They did an illegal act in past according to the law of volunteering,but they are now our national heroes,because they showed that if their country was under attack,there is no difference between child and adult to defend it.

Yes,we did wrong works too in Iran-Iraq war i do not deny it,but they were lesser than what Iraq did to Iran and what US battleship did to that Airboss full of innocent passengers.Also we paid for them too with heavy sanctions after 1988.But what did your government pay for their war crimes?Have your governments ever paid anything for their crimes in Afghanistan,Iraq and Pakistan and many other countries?

Also why do you think you yourself are not brainwashed?At last everyone will be brainwashed by the beliefs of his or her own country,can you really deny it?

I just see the truths,and the truths say me your governments do not care about democracy;because if they do,they wouldn't overthrow a democratic government in Iran in 53's.Mosaddegh's government was a completely democratic government which UK and US destroyed it and brought Shah to Iran to establish a dictatorship here.


The ships are allowed to carry arms in international waters, under international law a blockade of Iraq would be considered illegal. You also can't simply destroy a neutral ship if it enters your water, that's not how it works at all.


Yes,but not when it is very close to a military port when there is a war in progress.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Harry Smith]

First of all,i have an uncle who got killed in Iran-Iraq war and also i have two other uncles who are now alive and one of them was a member of Iran oil company Red Crescent group who aided some of those crews,so do not tell lies about me.

Also,it looks like you didn't read that article completely.

You just have read that part?Then you are really close minded,because if you read the previous articles too in that newspaper,you will recognize that how did those children went to battlefields and how did they escape the military patrols who didn't let them to go and fight.

If you haven't read the other articles,then let me tell you that those children were in many operations with other soldiers,Attacks,defends,surviving and spying,and when there was an emergency operation,then everybody in that situation were soldiers,because there was no time to understand who was legally there or illegally there.

In some of the surviving operations,there were some lands full of mines and the Iranian forces didn't have special forces to refuse them,and so some of the members of their groups sacrificed themselves to make a clear way for others to pass.

Those children were members of those groups too in those emergency situations and they could decide to sacrifice themselves or let others to do this;nobody forced them to do this,but they understood that they can do something in defending their country with this act,so they did it.

Children who went to battlefields were illegally there and they begged the other soldiers to not say the officials that they are there.The government didn't want them to be there but they themselves wanted and did it.

They did an illegal act in past according to the law of volunteering,but they are now our national heroes,because they showed that if their country was under attack,there is no difference between child and adult to defend it.

Yes,we did wrong works too in Iran-Iraq war i do not deny it,but they were lesser than what Iraq did to Iran and what US battleship did to that Airboss full of innocent passengers.Also we paid for them too with heavy sanctions after 1988.But what did your government pay for their war crimes?Have your governments ever paid anything for their crimes in Afghanistan,Iraq and Pakistan and many other countries?

Also why do you think you yourself are not brainwashed?At last everyone will be brainwashed by the beliefs of his or her own country,can you really deny it?

I just see the truths,and the truths say me your governments do not care about democracy;because if they do,they wouldn't overthrow a democratic government in Iran in 53's.Mosaddegh's government was a completely democratic government which UK and US destroyed it and brought Shah to Iran to establish a dictatorship here.

I'm not saying your lying, I'm saying you can't use family members as a source in a debate because unless its documented the NOP is very unreliable. Your hardly going to mention it unless it benefits your argument.

You can attempt to gloss over it by claiming they wanted to die but under the 1947 convention they fell under the laws of 'combatants' meaning that they were to be treated like that.

[Left Now]

You just can say this?According to this law,according to that law?...The laws won't change the truth in the past that they really wanted to this.

Also,i just said what my uncle told me and i didn't want to use it in an international act,this is enough for me to believe how was the situation.You just want to change my mind,but it is useless when i know what was going on in those times.At last i am here for about 17 years ago,but you are not.You are just in UK and won't see what is happening in Iraq,Iran and other countries of Middle East.At last i have real people who were in that war to ask them about it,but you just be able to read about it and hear about it from your own people.Every time i went to Iraq,many people wanted me to forgive them because of attacking to Iran,and i would forgive them i know that it was not their fault.That war was a complete crime against Iran and you really cannot deny it unless you be an idiot,and I know you are not.You are an educated wise person,but with a bad direction about some subjects.

However,i think we'd better to finish this debate and just get back to the main topic,if you agree.

Okay,i just have a question about the independence of America!?Was it considered as a kind of treason for people in Britain?

[Walter Powers]

When have my rights been threatened? The gov. and certain political groups are the biggest threat to my rights, not Al-Qaeda or any country. Two of my family members were 9/11 first responders, so dont give me a speech on 9/11Saying Al-Qaeda attacked us because they are "jealous" of our rights and freedom is the biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life.

Why the fuck do we need to be the world police in every god damn conflict? That's one problem I have with this government, do you think 9/11 would have happened if we didnt build massive US bases over in Saudi Arabia? Tell me, if China or Japan built a air base in your backyard would you be happy? Im not trying to justify any attacks on civilians, but why do you think countries like Canada and Switzerland have never been attacked? BECAUSE THEY KEEP TO THEMSELVES AND FOCUS ON DOMESTIC PROBLEMS.

Yes, we have helped millions in distress, I'm proud to say I've donated to the Salvation Army and Red Cross. Though, going and bombing countries and funding governments that bomb innocent countries is not helping at all, as you say "throwing money at the problem".

We make terrorist when we go bomb these Middle-Eastern countries. An example of this: A Afghan civilian's family member dies due to a US airstrike, hes goes to join the Taliban or other milita groups, because he wants to retaliate, who wouldnt?


All I want is for America to focus on DOMESTIC ISSUES, what if all the money on useless wars(Iraq) was invested into American industry or education? Shit even the space program, we could be on Mars by now! I have more city pride than American pride, ill be honest on that one. I just cant be proud of something that has ravaged millions of life, the bad things we've did outweigh the good ones. Im sorry if this goes against your conservative "AMERICA WE'RE NUMBER 1" type view of the world, we are not perfect, far from it and we will never be. Im proud to be American, im just not proud of our government and its policies.

On the video, the only "4 Unique things about America" that I am proud of are scientifcally, and economically. Im not dissing our military, I have tons of vets and active service members in my family, I actually plan on going to the state guard when im older. The man in the video also says we've responded only to aggression?.. Iraq in 03' was aggression? Panama in 89' was aggression? I somewhat agree with the Afghan War, though we should have been out of there already. On the economic part, China owns us my friend! so GDP doesnt mean much..

I'd like you to take a few minutes out of your morning(As I did) to watch a few videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1dDIrOCbUo What If China collected on US Debt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzRzaTljXI Your proud most of your tax dollars goes to the war and killing?

Did I say we should police the world? No. I just think that America's influence is a lot better then China's or Russia's, so we need to involve ourselves a lot in world affairs. Also, considering the fact we are a nation of immigrants, it's nice to help out our relatives overseas when they need it :)

Canada has never been attacked because we protect them and Canada is arguably our closest ally, if not second to the UK. It's not because they mind their own business; it's because they have us looking out for them. Switzerland is protected by other nations in the EU. Both these examples you give are ridiculous. If we were to reduce our global influence, as you advocate, both of these countries would find themselves under attack.

Your claim our bombings cause this terrorism is just plain incorrect. These are ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS! They think women should be shunned and homosexuals should be hung. It's part of their religious beliefs. It's not for revenge on us when we are attacked by them. It's because they despise nearly every aspect of western life.

And let me be clear: I don't advocate giving any monetary aid to other governments. I think we should use our own military. You are correct, giving people like the Syrian rebels our money and guns is throwing money at the problem.

And China doesn't own us. GDP doesn't lie. By what measure does China own us? I think we own China, because we are so much more economically powerful then them. True, Obama likes to spend, but the GOP has stopped him from spending THAT much!

[Stronk Serb]

Did I say we should police the world? No. I just think that America's influence is a lot better then China's or Russia's, so we need to involve ourselves a lot in world affairs. Also, considering the fact we are a nation of immigrants, it's nice to help out our relatives overseas when they need it :)

Canada has never been attacked because we protect them and Canada is arguably our closest ally, if not second to the UK. It's not because they mind their own business; it's because they have us looking out for them. Switzerland is protected by other nations in the EU. Both these examples you give are ridiculous. If we were to reduce our global influence, as you advocate, both of these countries would find themselves under attack.

Your claim our bombings cause this terrorism is just plain incorrect. These are ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS! They think women should be shunned and homosexuals should be hung. It's part of their religious beliefs. It's not for revenge on us when we are attacked by them. It's because they despise nearly every aspect of western life.

And let me be clear: I don't advocate giving any monetary aid to other governments. I think we should use our own military. You are correct, giving people like the Syrian rebels our money and guns is throwing money at the problem.

And China doesn't own us. GDP doesn't lie. By what measure does China own us? I think we own China, because we are so much more economically powerful then them. True, Obama likes to spend, but the GOP has stopped him from spending THAT much!

Stop looking at countries through GDP, it is not very accurate. The Al-Qaeda and other Salafit groups hate you because you violated their "holy land" by putting bases in Saudi Arabia. Why would an Afghan farmer care what is some American doing half the globe away? After the death of a family member, he wants to retaliate. Al-Qaeda is against you due to your unwavering support to Israel and you keep building bases accross the Middle East, not bacause of your freedoms. You violated their "holy land" and support the genocidal Israel, the US government supports Israel out of your taxes,, and guess what? The Israeli were kind enough to send only a thank you note, nothing else.. Sweden is not bombing everyone, and they are doing better then you. Sweden does not have much influence, and they have better social and economic standards. Same goes for Norway and Finland, hell, in Finland internet is based as a necessity, just like water and food, so you pay a lot less for basic packages.

[World Eater]

Did I say we should police the world? No. I just think that America's influence is a lot better then China's or Russia's, so we need to involve ourselves a lot in world affairs. Also, considering the fact we are a nation of immigrants, it's nice to help out our relatives overseas when they need it :)

No we don't. You might think so, but really whats the damn point? Because our influence is "better" than China and Russia? The way I see it, most of our "relatives" don't care or want our help.

Canada has never been attacked because we protect them and Canada is arguably our closest ally, if not second to the UK. It's not because they mind their own business; it's because they have us looking out for them. Switzerland is protected by other nations in the EU. Both these examples you give are ridiculous. If we were to reduce our global influence, as you advocate, both of these countries would find themselves under attack.

Switzerland is neutral, that's why they aren't attacked or bothered. They were last invaded by Russia and Austria during the Napoleonic Wars. That's been since...the early 1800's.

And as SouthsidePro said, both Switzerland and Canada focus on domestic issues. Not because they're surrounded by powerful nations.

[Capto]

Non-interventionism forever.

[Walter Powers]

Stop looking at countries through GDP, it is not very accurate. The Al-Qaeda and other Salafit groups hate you because you violated their "holy land" by putting bases in Saudi Arabia. Why would an Afghan farmer care what is some American doing half the globe away? After the death of a family member, he wants to retaliate. Al-Qaeda is against you due to your unwavering support to Israel and you keep building bases accross the Middle East, not bacause of your freedoms. You violated their "holy land" and support the genocidal Israel, the US government supports Israel out of your taxes,, and guess what? The Israeli were kind enough to send only a thank you note, nothing else.. Sweden is not bombing everyone, and they are doing better then you. Sweden does not have much influence, and they have better social and economic standards. Same goes for Norway and Finland, hell, in Finland internet is based as a necessity, just like water and food, so you pay a lot less for basic packages.

These terrorists are not vengeful Afghans. They are on sucicide missions! When have terrorists attacked us that don't justify it by their perverted religion? They believe that our way of life is immoral, so they think they will have a better afterlife if they kill as many of us as possible. What eveidence leads you to believe this isn't part of their twisted religion? The reasons Al Qeda gives for attqcking are relating to the freedoms we give our people, not the way we treat other countries.

And Sweden is another example of a country that doesn't have to protect itself because other nations do it for them. And Finland has sky high taxes, so you actually end up paying a lot more for your necessities.

No we don't. You might think so, but really whats the damn point? Because our influence is "better" than China and Russia? The way I see it, most of our "relatives" don't care or want our help.



Switzerland is neutral, that's why they aren't attacked or bothered. They were last invaded by Russia and Austria during the Napoleonic Wars. That's been since...the early 1800's.

And as SouthsidePro said, both Switzerland and Canada focus on domestic issues. Not because they're surrounded by powerful nations.

Really? I've had multiple canandians on here tell me that if The US wasn't their neighbor they wouldn't exist.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Capto]

These terrorists are not vengeful Afghans. They are on sucicide missions! When have terrorists attacked us that don't justify it by their perverted religion? They believe that our way of life is immoral, so they think they will have a better afterlife if they kill as many of us as possible. What eveidence leads you to believe this isn't part of their twisted religion? The reasons Al Qeda gives for attqcking are relating to the freedoms we give our people, not the way we treat other countries.


Now that sort of anti-Islamism is just wrong. You should feel ashamed of yourself. Al al-Qaeda is is just a militant radical Sunni group who wishes to impose sharia law upon the world for whatever reason. Also, what are you talking about with Sweden? :C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

:)

[World Eater]

Really? I've had multiple canandians on here tell me that if The US wasn't their neighbor they wouldn't exist.

Well, I've been elsewhere on other forums, and several Canadians have told me otherwise. But I guess that just comes down to the opinions of others. Plus, there are other factors to consider, other than just being surrounded by powerful allies/countries.

[Camazotz]

You say America has done all these horrendous things, but you have no idea how many good things we do. We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake!

Eh, by the time we became relevant to the rest of the world, there wasn't much to conquer. We got some Pacific islands while we could (like Guam and Somoa), but imperialism was right before America became a superpower.

If you aren't proud to be an American, you have to be a very pessimistic person.

“Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn't a skill... it's a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn't say I'm proud to be 5'11"; I'm proud to have a pre-disposition for colon cancer.”

-George Carlin

Yet, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm using the right that was fought for by my ancestors and the right I inherited from them by birth. Nowhere in my post did I outright post that I'm not grateful for the sacrifices this country has made, I simply pointed out that we often ignore our faults - too often in many cases - and shouldn't be so proud of ourselves all the time.

Patriotism doesn't have to be held in such an extremist light. Be proud of your country for the good it has done, but don't turn a blind eye to what you've done that is wrong. It's a simple thing to do.

Sums up pretty much everything I think about our modern idea of patriotism and our post 9/11 thinking.

[Capto]

We are the only superpower in the history of the world not to pursue conquest, for Pete's sake! When we capture an area, we turn it over to it's rightful owners.

Seizure of West Florida, Seminole Wars, military annexations of New Mexico, California, Utah, and Nevada from Mexico, annexation of Hawai'i, Spanish-American War.

Those don't count as conquests? Why not? :C

[Walter Powers]

Now that sort of anti-Islamism is just wrong. You should feel ashamed of yourself. Al al-Qaeda is is just a militant radical Sunni group who wishes to impose sharia law upon the world for whatever reason. Also, what are you talking about with Sweden? :C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

:)

I should be ashamed of myself for hating radical Islam? The people who murdered nearly 3000 Americans on one day? Give me a break.

Let me be clear: I don't hate Islam. I hate radical Islam. Just as I hate radical anything.

Someone else mentioned Sweden. They thought the reason why it had no problems was because they didn't in live themselves in world affairs. The real reason is that they are protected by other nations.


Seizure of West Florida, Seminole Wars, military annexations of New Mexico, California, Utah, and Nevada from Mexico, annexation of Hawai'i, Spanish-American War.

Those don't count as conquests? Why not? :C

I'm talking modern history here (like since WWII)

[Capto]

Someone else mentioned Sweden. They thought the reason why it had no problems was because they didn't in live themselves in world affairs. The real reason is that they are protected by other nations.


Swedish non-interventionism? Anyone?

I'm talking modern history here (like since WWII)

You could've mentioned it.

Radical Islam isn't a religion. It's a coalition of political ideologies that took a peaceful religion and molded and disfigured it for its own good.

[teen.jpg]

I'd rather be Canadian >.>

[Walter Powers]

Swedish non-interventionism? Anyone?



You could've mentioned it.

Radical Islam isn't a religion. It's a coalition of political ideologies that took a peaceful religion and molded and disfigured it for its own good.

Here's Google 's dictionary entry:

re·li·gion
/riˈlijən/
Noun
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Synonyms
faith - belief - creed - denomination

Sounds like Islam fits this to me. Just because it's a mixture of other Religion's doesn't invalidate itself as a religion. Is English not a language because it is a mixture of other languages?


I'd rather be Canadian >.>
When you're old enough, move.

[Capto]

Here's Google 's dictionary entry:

re·li·gion
/riˈlijən/
Noun
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Synonyms
faith - belief - creed - denomination

Sounds like Islam fits this to me. Just because it's a mixture of other Religion's doesn't invalidate itself as a religion. Is English not a language because it is a mixture of other languages?


I said Islam was a religion. I also said that radical Islam took Islam and used a flawed and corrupted version of it as a platform for an unrelated political ideology.

EDIT: And how on earth is Islam a 'mixture of other Religions's'?

EDITx2: Oh yey, I'm a member now. Hooray. Posting in a debate section sure does get postcount up fast.

EDITx3: After this post, I'm going to be in bed with an iPad. So I won't be able to respond as quickly and as well as this.

[Walter Powers]

I said Islam was a religion. I also said that radical Islam took Islam and used a flawed and corrupted version of it as a platform for an unrelated political ideology.

EDIT: And how on earth is Islam a 'mixture of other Religions's'?

EDITx2: Oh yey, I'm a member now. Hooray. Posting in a debate section sure does get postcount up fast.

EDITx3: After this post, I'm going to be in bed with an iPad. So I won't be able to respond as quickly and as well as this.

Woops. I meant to say "Radical Islam" is a mixture/evolved from.

[Capto]

Woops. I meant to say "Radical Islam" is a mixture/evolved from.

But Radical Islam along the lines of al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Caucasian Emirate, and others are destroying essential Islam and replacing it with a political ideology ridiculous enough to top North Korea. And I mean North Korea WITH Kim Jong Un.

[Walter Powers]

But Radical Islam along the lines of al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Caucasian Emirate, and others are destroying essential Islam and replacing it with a political ideology ridiculous enough to top North Korea. And I mean North Korea WITH Kim Jong Un.

It's still a set of beliefs, which makes it a religion. And yes, I would say that North Korea does have a religion. I'd call it Kimianity. If you've seen the documentaries, they actually do essentially pray to the statues of Un, Il, and Sung.

[Capto]

It's still a set of beliefs, which makes it a religion. And yes, I would say that North Korea does have a religion. I'd call it Kimianity. If you've seen the documentaries, they actually do essentially pray to the statues of Un, Il, and Sung.

North Korea is specified by themselves as an atheistic state.

[Stronk Serb]

These terrorists are not vengeful Afghans. They are on sucicide missions! When have terrorists attacked us that don't justify it by their perverted religion? They believe that our way of life is immoral, so they think they will have a better afterlife if they kill as many of us as possible. What eveidence leads you to believe this isn't part of their twisted religion? The reasons Al Qeda gives for attqcking are relating to the freedoms we give our people, not the way we treat other countries.

And Sweden is another example of a country that doesn't have to protect itself because other nations do it for them. And Finland has sky high taxes, so you actually end up paying a lot more for your necessities.



Really? I've had multiple canandians on here tell me that if The US wasn't their neighbor they wouldn't exist.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

Can you please explain me how Sweeden remained independent during WWII despite being surrounded by the Nazis and the Soviets? Same goes for Switzerland. Yeah, the Taliban are vengeful Afghans, during the US bombings, how many people lost their relatives? A lot, they did not say "fuck that we will have freedom", they went amd joined the Taliban to retaliate against the US. Now they are like "fuck you we don't need your freedom". The reason for 9/11 you specified sounds and smells like republican BS. They hate you because you support Israeli genocidal campaigns against the Palestinians, build bases accross the Middle East without the support of the people, which you proceeded to bomb the shit out of a few years back. How would you feel if China would build a military base in or near your town? You'd probably want them out, especially if they are misbehaving drunkards. Same goes for the Middle Easern Salafits, but a heck more radical.

[britishboy]

Can you please explain me how Sweeden remained independent during WWII despite being surrounded by the Nazis and the Soviets? Same goes for Switzerland. Yeah, the Taliban are vengeful Afghans, during the US bombings, how many people lost their relatives? A lot, they did not say "fuck that we will have freedom", they went amd joined the Taliban to retaliate against the US. Now they are like "fuck you we don't need your freedom". The reason for 9/11 you specified sounds and smells like republican BS. They hate you because you support Israeli genocidal campaigns against the Palestinians, build bases accross the Middle East without the support of the people, which you proceeded to bomb the shit out of a few years back. How would you feel if China would build a military base in or near your town? You'd probably want them out, especially if they are misbehaving drunkards. Same goes for the Middle Easern Salafits, but a heck more radical.

what your forgetting is that Afghanis HATE the Taliban and there was large protests against the fact the USA, not because of the war but because they are talking with the Taliban, please get your facts right

[Stronk Serb]

what your forgetting is that Afghanis HATE the Taliban and there was large protests against the fact the USA, not because of the war but because they are talking with the Taliban, please get your facts right

What the fuck? That is plain illogical. They hate the US because:
They bombed the shit out of Afghanistan
They killed a lot in the process
They installed an incompetent government
They caused more violence in Afghanistan

About those protests, they were probably government funded since a peasant would not go all the way to Kabul to protest for the US to exterminate the Taliban since the US killed some of his close/distant relatives in their bombing campaign.

[britishboy]

What the fuck? That is plain illogical. They hate the US because:
They bombed the shit out of Afghanistan
They killed a lot in the process
They installed an incompetent government
They caused more violence in Afghanistan

About those protests, they were probably government funded since a peasant would not go all the way to Kabul to protest for the US to exterminate the Taliban since the US killed some of his close/distant relatives in their bombing campaign.

you cant see whats staring you in the face! do you even know how bad the taliban are? I know you hate the west because we help serbia soon enough but they pour acid on women, stone women who show there faces, men who resist are tortured, their nailes pulled out and acid poured down their throats, yes some do turn against the is but the majority of the public blame the taliban for the war, use your common sence, who's worse? nato or the taliban?

[Southside]

I should be ashamed of myself for hating radical Islam? The people who murdered nearly 3000 Americans on one day? Give me a break.

Let me be clear: I don't hate Islam. I hate radical Islam. Just as I hate radical anything.

Someone else mentioned Sweden. They thought the reason why it had no problems was because they didn't in live themselves in world affairs. The real reason is that they are protected by other nations.

As my favorite rapper Immortal Technique says, "We arent at war with radical Islam, because were standing in line to suck dick for some Saudi Arabian businessmen". Saudi Arabia is one of the most radical Islamic countries in the Arab world but were sure getting the oil and business from them!

I'm talking modern history here (like since WWII)

What about the people who murdered 100,000+ Iraqi Civilians? I've never seen you cry about that one....

Did I say we should police the world? No. I just think that America's influence is a lot better then China's or Russia's, so we need to involve ourselves a lot in world affairs. Also, considering the fact we are a nation of immigrants, it's nice to help out our relatives overseas when they need it :)

Canada has never been attacked because we protect them and Canada is arguably our closest ally, if not second to the UK. It's not because they mind their own business; it's because they have us looking out for them. Switzerland is protected by other nations in the EU. Both these examples you give are ridiculous. If we were to reduce our global influence, as you advocate, both of these countries would find themselves under attack.

Your claim our bombings cause this terrorism is just plain incorrect. These are ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS! They think women should be shunned and homosexuals should be hung. It's part of their religious beliefs. It's not for revenge on us when we are attacked by them. It's because they despise nearly every aspect of western life.

And let me be clear: I don't advocate giving any monetary aid to other governments. I think we should use our own military. You are correct, giving people like the Syrian rebels our money and guns is throwing money at the problem.

And China doesn't own us. GDP doesn't lie. By what measure does China own us? I think we own China, because we are so much more economically powerful then them. True, Obama likes to spend, but the GOP has stopped him from spending THAT much!

You didnt watch the video I provided to you? If China cashes on all the debt we owe them, its over. Not even mentioning countries like Japan,Brazil,Taiwan,Hong Kong who also own a lot of US debt.

Answer this one, do you think 9/11 would have happened if we didnt build US bases over in the Middle-East and fund Israeli genocide?

Another question, this is just a scenario, if another country invaded the US and occupied it, wouldnt you want to join some type of resistance group? Some of those guys over in Afghanistan fighting us arent Islamic fundementalist or Taliban, they are simple people who want foreigners off their homeland. Honestly, who wouldnt fight against some foreigners who came over and occupied their homeland? I know if America was occupied/invaded I'd fight in a resistance group.

Now, I am supporting of a FEW things NATO has done in Afghanistan, like agriculture projects and rebuilding, though honestly did this war really need to be over a decade long? It's Republican warhawks like John McCain who are always calling for troop surges, more airstrikes, this dude even wanted to go into Syria as soon as the uprising started. I'm 50/50 on Obama, some things like energy,bailing out the auto industry, attempting to close Gitmo I applaud him on, others like funding Israel and threatening Iran I dont.

Tell me your views on the 2003 Iraq war, I'd love to her them

As my favorite rapper Immortal Technique says, "We arent at war with radical Islam because were standing in line to suck dick for some Saudi businessmen". Saudi Arabia with it's brand of Wahhabism is like the Taliban with millions of dollars. Saudi Arabia is one of the most radical countries in the Middle-East but we are willing to bow down to them because we want that oil.

Double Post Merged. -StoppingTime

[Stronk Serb]

you cant see whats staring you in the face! do you even know how bad the taliban are? I know you hate the west because we help serbia soon enough but they pour acid on women, stone women who show there faces, men who resist are tortured, their nailes pulled out and acid poured down their throats, yes some do turn against the is but the majority of the public blame the taliban for the war, use your common sence, who's worse? nato or the taliban?

NATO and the Taliban are equally bad in my opinion. The Taliban are growing in numbers due to NATO bombing accidents which result in civilian casualties. Simple farmers join the Taliban because their relatives were killed in bombings.

[britishboy]

NATO and the Taliban are equally bad in my opinion. The Taliban are growing in numbers due to NATO bombing accidents which result in civilian casualties. Simple farmers join the Taliban because their relatives were killed in bombings.

I dont recall nato being racist or sexist, targeting civilians torture or warcrimes?

[Capto]

Poor Afghanistan. First the Achaemenids, then the Greeks, then the Mauryans, then various assorted Persian dynasties, then the Palas, then the assorted Arabian dynasties, then the Ghaznavids, then the Ghurids, then the Mongols, then the Timurids, then the Mughals, then the Safavids, then a little bit of time of self-rule with the Durranis, then the British, then the Soviets, and then look where we are now.

[Stronk Serb]

I dont recall nato being racist or sexist, targeting civilians torture or warcrimes?

Not racist or anything, but they commit violence on a larger scale.

[britishboy]

Not racist or anything, but they commit violence on a larger scale.

please for the love of god, dont tell me you actually believe NATO is as bad as the Taliban?!?!

[Stronk Serb]

please for the love of god, dont tell me you actually believe NATO is as bad as the Taliban?!?!

Let's see, hundreds of thousands civilians killed in South America, more then a hundred thousand killed in Iraq and counting, unsolved problems on Kosovo, funding genocidal Israeli campaigns, yeah, it is worse or equally bad.

[Capto]

Let's see, hundreds of thousands civilians killed in South America, more then a hundred thousand killed in Iraq and counting, unsolved problems on Kosovo, funding genocidal Israeli campaigns, yeah, it is worse or equally bad.

Kosovo is a mess.

[Stronk Serb]

Kosovo is a mess.

Yeah. Both our government nor the Kosovo government nor NATO nor the UN are doing anything useful for the people. It suits NATO to put a drug/weapon/organ dealing terrorist warlord as head of state since he can get banged up if he does not play for NATO (US to be more precise), our government is too corrupt and stupid to do anything, and the UN does not want to get involved.

[StoppingTime]

Please remember the topic of this thread and don't stray from it. If you'd like to start other debates, start new threads, or go to PM.

[Southside]

I dont recall nato being racist or sexist, targeting civilians torture or warcrimes?

NATO has targeted civilians by bombing a television station in Libya.

NATO hasnt committed warcrimes? What about the 100,000+ civilians killed in Iraq?

As I've been asking all you Pro-NATO/ISAF people, if your family member was killed by a foreign army in your homeland wouldnt you want to retaliate against the foreign army? Don't say no, because I bet 90% of people would.

[britishboy]

NATO has targeted civilians by bombing a television station in Libya.

NATO hasnt committed warcrimes? What about the 100,000+ civilians killed in Iraq?

As I've been asking all you Pro-NATO/ISAF people, if your family member was killed by a foreign army in your homeland wouldnt you want to retaliate against the foreign army? Don't say no, because I bet 90% of people would.

they never targeted civilians and they are good, and far from the evil taliban
civilians always die in war, was britian bad for bombing the nazis? and when the french were under nazi control, britian was heavily bombing them, but yet they still blamed the nazis, you habe no Idea what you talk about and are ignorant or a troll

[britishboy]

Let's see, hundreds of thousands civilians killed in South America, more then a hundred thousand killed in Iraq and counting, unsolved problems on Kosovo, funding genocidal Israeli campaigns, yeah, it is worse or equally bad.

do they stone women? pour acid on their faces? use child suicide bombers? torture people? no. you know that your talking bullshit and are just another attention seeking communist

[Stronk Serb]

do they stone women? pour acid on their faces? use child suicide bombers? torture people? no. you know that your talking bullshit and are just another attention seeking communist

No, but they bomb bridges while civilians are crossing, bomb TV stations, destroy factories which are meant for comercial production, execute civilians. As I said, they kill more civilians on a wider scale, funding Israeli anti-Palestinian campaigns, not doing a damn thing on Kosovo. They are equally bad. If you wonder why are people joining the Taliban, imagine North Korea invaded the UK to purge it from capitalim and succeeded, they killed half of your family, wouldn't you join a ressistance movement or be against them? Maybe you shouldn't since on the brighter side, they will be training your police force. But who would care about the police force when you have your family killed. That's why peasants join the Taliban. NATO bombings kill their relatives and they want revenge.

[britishboy]

No, but they bomb bridges while civilians are crossing, bomb TV stations, destroy factories which are meant for comercial production, execute civilians. As I said, they kill more civilians on a wider scale, funding Israeli anti-Palestinian campaigns, not doing a damn thing on Kosovo. They are equally bad. If you wonder why are people joining the Taliban, imagine North Korea invaded the UK to purge it from capitalim and succeeded, they killed half of your family, wouldn't you join a ressistance movement or be against them? Maybe you shouldn't since on the brighter side, they will be training your police force. But who would care about the police force when you have your family killed. That's why peasants join the Taliban. NATO bombings kill their relatives and they want revenge.

do you know how much bombs cost? they dont waste them on civilians! and give me proof that they targeted civilians and resistance is understandable but the taliban is not resistance, theyre terrorists, if britian was being led by the taliban, and we had no human rights and nato came in to liberate us, I would help the fight. civilians are killed by both sides, the difference is nato troops are highly trained and dont go out to kill civilians and try there best not to, the taliban have no problem killing civilians, again please show me a order by the US or Royal air force that orders civilian deaths. I know you hate nato because we stopped your genocide but your whole country wants to move on and are actually trying to join the eu! stop being extremely nationalistic as the rest of your country wants to forget the genocide

[Stronk Serb]

do you know how much bombs cost? they dont waste them on civilians! and give me proof that they targeted civilians and resistance is understandable but the taliban is not resistance, theyre terrorists, if britian was being led by the taliban, and we had no human rights and nato came in to liberate us, I would help the fight. civilians are killed by both sides, the difference is nato troops are highly trained and dont go out to kill civilians and try there best not to, the taliban have no problem killing civilians, again please show me a order by the US or Royal air force that orders civilian deaths. I know you hate nato because we stopped your genocide but your whole country wants to move on and are actually trying to join the eu! stop being extremely nationalistic as the rest of your country wants to forget the genocide

Yeah right, I can infiltrate the Pentagon and get the orders. If I would get a copy, it would be pitch black. Call me nationalist? Nobody here is trying to forget genocide. Many worship the men who carried it out, I am disgusted by people like that. Now when someone is criticizing NATO "peace missions" in his country is a nationalist? Bugger off, I am just bringing out facts that your shiny-ass NATO is not a peace bringing organisation.

[britishboy]

Yeah right, I can infiltrate the Pentagon and get the orders. If I would get a copy, it would be pitch black. Call me nationalist? Nobody here is trying to forget genocide. Many worship the men who carried it out, I am disgusted by people like that. Now when someone is criticizing NATO "peace missions" in his country is a nationalist? Bugger off, I am just bringing out facts that your shiny-ass NATO is not a peace bringing organisation.

it was formed to remove the soviet union as a threat but does do peace missions, you have no proof of the orders and the Royal air force do relise mission papers, for god sake the big SAS missions are public!

[Southside]

they never targeted civilians and they are good, and far from the evil taliban
civilians always die in war, was britian bad for bombing the nazis? and when the french were under nazi control, britian was heavily bombing them, but yet they still blamed the nazis, you habe no Idea what you talk about and are ignorant or a troll

Did Britain have lazer guided bombs and satellite in WW2 that were created to reduce civilian deaths? No, so I dont think you can compare WW2 to current day.

Never targeted civilians?

NATO bombs civilian populated area in Tripoli killing two children and seven adults, flattens a two story house. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-06-19/world/35235660_1_military-missile-site-nato-charles-bouchard


NATO bombs a car plant in Yugoslavia http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-07-16/news/9907160117_1_zastava-nato-bombs wounding 130 workers

NATO bombs one of Libya's only sources for fresh water

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/

NATO bombs apartment building killing civilians in Surt http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Now, tell me that im ignorant when i've provided cold hard facts that you seem to deny because your in love with NATO's war machine alliance.

Yes, Taliban has killed civilians also but NATO has done it on a wider,global scale..From Libya to the Balklans to Afghanistan, it's sickening how a person can support them.

[britishboy]

Did Britain have lazer guided bombs and satellite in WW2 that were created to reduce civilian deaths? No, so I dont think you can compare WW2 to current day.

Never targeted civilians?

NATO bombs civilian populated area in Tripoli killing two children and seven adults, flattens a two story house. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-06-19/world/35235660_1_military-missile-site-nato-charles-bouchard


NATO bombs a car plant in Yugoslavia http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1999-07-16/news/9907160117_1_zastava-nato-bombs wounding 130 workers

NATO bombs one of Libya's only sources for fresh water

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/


Now, tell me that im ignorant when i've provided cold hard facts that you seem to deny because your in love with NATO's war machine alliance.

NATO killed LOADS of civilians, but never wanted to kill any

[Southside]

NATO killed LOADS of civilians, but never wanted to kill any

So directly striking a factory that makes pipes to provide water is "not wanting to"? I understand collateral damages but some of these are direct attacks on civilians.

Stop calling NATO a "peace keeping force", that title should only be reserved for the UN(They dont even do a good job half the time).

[britishboy]

So directly striking a factory that makes pipes to provide water is "not wanting to"? I understand collateral damages but some of these are direct attacks on civilians.

Stop calling NATO a "peace keeping force", that title should only be reserved for the UN(They dont even do a good job half the time).

due to the fact I dont command NATO I dont know what the deal with the factory is, maybe it could have been converted? maybe wrong information on the building? and NATO is a military alliance that does peace keeping missions its not a peace keeping force

[Harry Smith]

So directly striking a factory that makes pipes to provide water is "not wanting to"? I understand collateral damages but some of these are direct attacks on civilians.

Stop calling NATO a "peace keeping force", that title should only be reserved for the UN(They dont even do a good job half the time).

Do you have any knowledge of how a Military works, I'm sorry to tell you but it's not like call of duty. Buildings don't have signs on them which say that they're factories making pipes.

Unless you can show me that the Leadership of the NATO issued a signed order to kill civilians you haven't got anything to stand on.

Also what would NATO gain by killing civilians- Nothing

[Southside]

Do you have any knowledge of how a Military works, I'm sorry to tell you but it's not like call of duty. Buildings don't have signs on them which say that they're factories making pipes.

Unless you can show me that the Leadership of the NATO issued a signed order to kill civilians you haven't got anything to stand on.

Also what would NATO gain by killing civilians- Nothing

Common sense... You drop a couple hundred pound bomb over a highly populated area in Tripoli its going to be civilian deaths, doesnt take some Pentagon anaylst to figure that out.

What I am saying is, NATO needs to do more research and satellite photos on targets before they go in and bomb it.

Libya was better off when Ghaddafi was in, thats a fact.

I do have something to stand on, pictures and videos showing bombed out apartment buildings and other civilian housing structures with no military targets around..

Is it right for NATO to bomb one of Libya's only sources for fresh water? That's a military target right?

[britishboy]

Libya was better off when Ghaddafi was in, thats a fact.

stop trolling, the phyco had a private torture chamber next to his office

[Harry Smith]

Common sense... You drop a couple hundred pound bomb over a highly populated area in Tripoli its going to be civilian deaths, doesnt take some Pentagon anaylst to figure that out.

What I am saying is, NATO needs to do more research and satellite photos on targets before they go in and bomb it.

Libya was better off when Ghaddafi was in, thats a fact.

I do have something to stand on, pictures and videos showing bombed out apartment buildings and other civilian housing structures with no military targets around..

Is it right for NATO to bomb one of Libya's only sources for fresh water? That's a military target right?

It's part of the centre of gravity, the fact that you support Gaddafi shows the whole failure of your argument. Your supporting a fascist dictator who killed and tortued millions and then you criticize NATO for what you perceive as War crimes.

You can't support Gaddafi and then highlight human rights, that's like being a vegetarian in a slaughter house

[Capto]

lolololololol @ Gaddafi being fascist.

[Harry Smith]

lolololololol @ Gaddafi being fascist.

Do you disagree?

[Capto]

Do you disagree?

Of course. Gaddafi wasn't a fascist, he was a pan-Africanist.

Also, it's true that Libya as a state was more stable and safe when Gaddafi was in power. Have you ever been there? 'Twas really nice.

[Harry Smith]

Of course. Gaddafi wasn't a fascist, he was a pan-Africanist.

Also, it's true that Libya as a state was more stable and safe when Gaddafi was in power. Have you ever been there? 'Twas really nice.

He shared a lot in common with the ideological teachings of Fascism that originated from both Abdel Nasser and Mussolini. He had the cult leadership as well.


Safe and Stable for who? Sure if you look past the female bodyguards getting raped, diplomats getting shot, passenger jets getting blown up, night clubs getting bombed and the general lovelines I'm sure Libya was lovely.

The argument about stability is a rather weak one, look at Germany in 1946. The country was on the point of ruin with food shortages and unemployment but then it managed to develop quickly. But we didn't say- look at this crisis, at least under the Nazis it was stable we should invite Eichmann back from South America.

[Capto]

He shared a lot in common with the ideological teachings of Fascism that originated from both Abdel Nasser and Mussolini. He had the cult leadership as well.


Safe and Stable for who? Sure if you look past the female bodyguards getting raped, diplomats getting shot, passenger jets getting blown up, night clubs getting bombed and the general lovelines I'm sure Libya was lovely.

The argument about stability is a rather weak one, look at Germany in 1946. The country was on the point of ruin with food shortages and unemployment but then it managed to develop quickly. But we didn't say- look at this crisis, at least under the Nazis it was stable we should invite Eichmann back from South America.

Libya used to be the safest and top tourist location in Africa in the latter days of Gaddafi's reign, even contending with Malawi and Morocco.

And Gaddafi wasn't a fascist. His ideology was similar, but disregarded the nationalist portion of fascism completely.

I also didn't 'argue' about stability in the slightest. I just made a statement.

[britishboy]

Libya used to be the safest and top tourist location in Africa in the latter days of Gaddafi's reign, even contending with Malawi and Morocco.

And Gaddafi wasn't a fascist. His ideology was similar, but disregarded the nationalist portion of fascism completely.

I also didn't 'argue' about stability in the slightest. I just made a statement.

yep he was such a great leader!!! funny how his own people didnt see it like that?

[Capto]

yep he was such a great leader!!! funny how his own people didnt see it like that?

I never said he was a great leader, nor did anything in my dialogue imply such.

[Southside]

It's part of the centre of gravity, the fact that you support Gaddafi shows the whole failure of your argument. Your supporting a fascist dictator who killed and tortued millions and then you criticize NATO for what you perceive as War crimes.

You can't support Gaddafi and then highlight human rights, that's like being a vegetarian in a slaughter house

Libya was more prosperous and safe before the Ghaddafi Regime fell...That's a fact

If I can remember Ghaddafi payed each of the Lockerbie bombings families millions, and Libya was taken off the "state terrorist" list.

Lol they said we bombed Libya for "humanitarian reasons" biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life. Bombing water infrustucture is sure helping the humanitarian crisis.

[britishboy]

Libya was more prosperous and safe before the Ghaddafi Regime fell...That's a fact

tell that to the people in his private torture chamber

[Southside]

tell that to the people in his private torture chamber

How about you tell me about the people killed in a civilian apartment building in Surt & Tripoli?

How about you tell me about those wounded when NATO bombed a car factory injuring 130 workers?

What about those who were without water in the desert due to NATO's bombing of crucial water pipes?

Nowhere am I saying Ghaddafi was a good leader, I'm saying Libya was more stable before NATO came in and bomb it. Do you think the Benghazi attack would have happened if Ghaddafi was in office? FUCK NO..Because he kept all the Islamic Radicals and Al-Qaeda affliates locked up in jail.

[Capto]

tell that to the people in his private torture chamber

Have you been there before the Gaddafi regime collapsed? It was stable and prosperous simply because of the government's private control over all the country's oil resources and their iron rule over the people.

But it was a nice tourist location.

[britishboy]

Have you been there before the Gaddafi regime collapsed? It was stable and prosperous simply because of the government's private control over all the country's oil resources and their iron rule over the people.

But it was a nice tourist location.

a good economy hardly makes up for that dictatorship

[Capto]

a good economy hardly makes up for that dictatorship

How is this related in any form to what I said?

[britishboy]

Libya was more prosperous and safe before the Ghaddafi Regime fell...That's a fact

If I can remember Ghaddafi payed each of the Lockerbie bombings families millions, and Libya was taken off the "state terrorist" list.

Lol they said we bombed Libya for "humanitarian reasons" biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life. Bombing water infrustucture is sure helping the humanitarian crisis.

you appear to be forgetting something, the people started it, and welcomed NATO's help!

How is this related in any form to what I said?

you was saying how much better it was with a dictator

[Southside]

you appear to be forgetting something, the people started it, and welcomed NATO's help!

Still havent answered my question, would the Benghazi attack had taken place under Ghaddafi?

[Capto]

you was saying how much better it was with a dictator

Yeah, and you responded with something completely off-topic. I was touting the higher stability and greater wealth of the nation as a whole.

[Harry Smith]

Libya was more prosperous and safe before the Ghaddafi Regime fell...That's a fact

If I can remember Ghaddafi payed each of the Lockerbie bombings families millions, and Libya was taken off the "state terrorist" list.

Lol they said we bombed Libya for "humanitarian reasons" biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life. Bombing water infrustucture is sure helping the humanitarian crisis.

If I remember he supplied the IRA, if I remembered his own security services authorized Lockiebie. If I member he authorized the bombing of a night club in Germany.

Do you have a source for the water infrastructure? So we can at least not be lead down a dark alley.

We got a democratic government lead by the Libyan people, the fact that you support a dictator sickens me, how can you complain about NATO and then approve Gaddafi. Double standards much?

[britishboy]

Still havent answered my question, would the Benghazi attack had taken place under Ghaddafi?

if 9/11 could happen to the usa im pretty sure that would still have happened!!

[britishboy]

Yeah, and you responded with something completely off-topic. I was touting the higher stability and greater wealth of the nation as a whole.

and I was saying good economy and high amounts of torture isnt good!! and the fact that a mini civil war happened, shows how 'stable' his country was

[Capto]

and I was saying good economy and high amounts of torture isnt good!! and the fact that a mini civil war happened, shows how 'stable' his country was

It was stable. Everyone I met said it was stable there. But it wasn't good.

[britishboy]

It was stable. Everyone I met said it was stable there. But it wasn't good.

whats you definition of stable? because civil war dosent count as stable!

[Southside]

If I remember he supplied the IRA, if I remembered his own security services authorized Lockiebie. If I member he authorized the bombing of a night club in Germany.

Do you have a source for the water infrastructure? So we can at least not be lead down a dark alley.

We got a democratic government lead by the Libyan people, the fact that you support a dictator sickens me, how can you complain about NATO and then approve Gaddafi. Double standards much?

Like I said, I DO NOT support Ghaddafi, Im just saying Libya was more prosperous and safe when he was in power.

Libya is the wild west right now, militas are roaming around and Al-Qaeda/Islamic Radicalist who were kept in jail during the Ghadaffi regime are now out and free.



Source on bombing water infrastructure http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/2011/08/20/nato-bombs-the-great-man-made-river/

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/

[Capto]

whats you definition of stable? because civil war dosent count as stable!

In the early 2000's, Libya was one of the most stable states in Africa at the time. Do you know anything about Libya.

[britishboy]

In the early 2000's, Libya was one of the most stable states in Africa at the time. Do you know anything about Libya.

yep and he kept it stable through fear and terror but wasnt that good at it because again a civil war happened

[Capto]

yep and he kept it stable through fear and terror but wasnt that good at it because again a civil war happened

Irrelevant.

[britishboy]

Libya was more prosperous and safe when he was in power.


are you joking?!?! A CIVIL WAR HAPPENED!! THOUSANDS DEAD hardly safe?! but I agree it was wealthy but I would rather be poor and not have me and my family tortured to death

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/27/article-0-0D979D5600000578-754_468x461.jpg

www.matthewvandyke.com/images/matthew-vandyke-prisoner-of-war-libya.jpg

[britishboy]

Irrelevant.

really? what do you think of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVeSktXxV0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I would show you more such videos, but this is the only one that blured the graphic scenes

[Capto]

really? what do you think of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVeSktXxV0U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I would show you more such videos, but this is the only one that blured the graphic scenes

I'm laughing so hard right now at the fact that you want to show me this. Shows me how much you know about Libya.

[britishboy]

I'm laughing so hard right now at the fact that you want to show me this. Shows me how much you know about Libya.

I know that he was a evil hated dictator, what do you know about Libya?

[Left Now]

I know that,he first was pretending to be a good man,but he was a real dictator.

[britishboy]

I know that,he first was pretending to be a good man,but he was a real dictator.

he had wealth because of oil but he had torture chambers next to his office!

[Capto]

I know that he was a evil hated dictator, what do you know about Libya?

I know that he wasn't hated by all always. Simply because of his contributions to Libya's finances and infrastructure. People are materialist creatures.

Regardless, you should've visited Libya around 2005. It was wonderful. Sirte, Tripoli, Leptis Magna... Libya was wonderful then.

[Harry Smith]

Like I said, I DO NOT support Ghaddafi, Im just saying Libya was more prosperous and safe when he was in power.

Libya is the wild west right now, militas are roaming around and Al-Qaeda/Islamic Radicalist who were kept in jail during the Ghadaffi regime are now out and free.



Source on bombing water infrastructure http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/2011/08/20/nato-bombs-the-great-man-made-river/

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/

That's a suprise, I thought the source would be from a reliable news company rather than a biased pressure group. Both those sources are biased and unreliable.

When he was in power you had a goddam civil war as Jack said. It shows that the oppression provided false pressure until the people rose up. You whole argument is based on libya being better under Gaddafi. Your ignoring the fact that democracy has been brought, the Libyan people have justice. Your whole view point is very mixed, you complain about Al-Qauda militia yet in this and other threads you have condemndedthe west for trying to sort out Islamic radicals. You've got a patchwork argument

[Capto]

Libya as a nation was better under Gaddafi.

[Harry Smith]

Libya as a nation was better under Gaddafi.

Does that justify his human rights abuse? Does that justify female bodyguards getting drugged and raped? Does that justify him ordering a jihad on Switzerland? Does that justify his murderous ways?

You can make flat blank statements like, all it highlights is your lack of vision.

[Capto]

Does that justify his human rights abuse? Does that justify female bodyguards getting drugged and raped? Does that justify him ordering a jihad on Switzerland? Does that justify his murderous ways?

You can make flat blank statements like, all it highlights is your lack of vision.

Of course it doesn't. I didn't deny any of that. You're missing the whole entire point of my statement, and it's not even a 'flat blank statement'.

It's just the truth from my experience and interviewing.

[Harry Smith]

Of course it doesn't. I didn't deny any of that. You're missing the whole entire point of my statement, and it's not even a 'flat blank statement'.

It's just the truth from my experience and interviewing.

What's your view on libya then? Should we of let Gaddafi murder protesting civilians?

[Capto]

What's your view on libya then? Should we of let Gaddafi murder protesting civilians?

Did I ever support that? No. Stop making incorrect assumptions about me. It's honestly quite annoying.

[Harry Smith]

Did I ever support that? No. Stop making incorrect assumptions about me. It's honestly quite annoying.

Well maybe you could express your view on Libya rather than simply stating it was better under Gaddafi. That's all your point has been, you've completely ignored the entire civil war that happened. I never assumed that you supporpoted it, I merely asked you if you agreed with the policy. It's honestly quite annoying if you don't read my posts correctly

So I'll ask again for the 2nd time, do you agree with what NATO did in Libya?

[Capto]

Well maybe you could express your view on Libya rather than simply stating it was better under Gaddafi. That's all your point has been, you've completely ignored the entire civil war that happened.

So I'll ask again for the 2nd time, do you agree with what NATO did in Libya?

I answered all the questions asked of me. What do you want now? I expressed my view on Libya in a concise manner that most people should be able to see. And I never discussed what NATO did in Libya because nobody asked ME that.

Ugh.

[britishboy]

I know that he wasn't hated by all always. Simply because of his contributions to Libya's finances and infrastructure. People are materialist creatures.

Regardless, you should've visited Libya around 2005. It was wonderful. Sirte, Tripoli, Leptis Magna... Libya was wonderful then.

too hot for me, I prefer tropical climates for holidays and he was evil however I agree they had tones oil which gave them money but that hardly forgives an evil dictator

[Capto]

I agree they had tones oil which gave them money but that hardly forgives an evil dictator

I never said it did, so you need to stop saying that.

Also, the Libyan climate in the more 'important' cities is a nice mediterranean climate. :)

[Southside]

are you joking?!?! A CIVIL WAR HAPPENED!! THOUSANDS DEAD hardly safe?! but I agree it was wealthy but I would rather be poor and not have me and my family tortured to death

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/27/article-0-0D979D5600000578-754_468x461.jpg

www.matthewvandyke.com/images/matthew-vandyke-prisoner-of-war-libya.jpg

So you'd rather have a barely stable country with Al-Qaeda militas roaming around in Toyota pick-up trucks with mounted 50 cals than a iron fisted dictator that keeps things in order? You must like having countries like current day Iraq, where people are getting blown to pieces by carbombs and dying in gunfights on a daily basis.

Im talking pre 2011, Libya was the richest country in Africa, had free education for all citizens, doing pretty well for itself. Also, like Capto said it was starting to become a tourist destination.

[Harry Smith]

Of course. Gaddafi wasn't a fascist, he was a pan-Africanist.

Also, it's true that Libya as a state was more stable and safe when Gaddafi was in power. Have you ever been there? 'Twas really nice.

Libya used to be the safest and top tourist location in Africa in the latter days of Gaddafi's reign, even contending with Malawi and Morocco.

And Gaddafi wasn't a fascist. His ideology was similar, but disregarded the nationalist portion of fascism completely.

I also didn't 'argue' about stability in the slightest. I just made a statement.

Have you been there before the Gaddafi regime collapsed? It was stable and prosperous simply because of the government's private control over all the country's oil resources and their iron rule over the people.

But it was a nice tourist location.

Yeah, and you responded with something completely off-topic. I was touting the higher stability and greater wealth of the nation as a whole.

It was stable. Everyone I met said it was stable there. But it wasn't good.

In the early 2000's, Libya was one of the most stable states in Africa at the time. Do you know anything about Libya.

Libya as a nation was better under Gaddafi.

Your only point seems to be that it was stable, maybe you should get in written on a mug?


I answered all the questions asked of me. What do you want now? I expressed my view on Libya in a concise manner that most people should be able to see. And I never discussed what NATO did in Libya because nobody asked ME that.

Ugh.

What's your view on libya then? Should we of let Gaddafi murder protesting civilians

This is what I asked above, so yes you HAVE been asked before, albeit in one post before.

UGH

[Capto]

That it was stable and it was economically more sound IS my point.

What does that question have to do with 'NATO in Libya'?

[Walter Powers]

I think this thread is getting to off topic. So we can talk about Independance Day, or I'll have to have a mod lock this thead. I'd love to debate more about this, but it's not related to the topic.

Thank you.

[Harry Smith]

So you'd rather have a barely stable country with Al-Qaeda militas roaming around in Toyota pick-up trucks with mounted 50 cals than a iron fisted dictator that keeps things in order? You must like having countries like current day Iraq, where people are getting blown to pieces by carbombs and dying in gunfights on a daily basis.

Im talking pre 2011, Libya was the richest country in Africa, had free education for all citizens, doing pretty well for itself. Also, like Capto said it was starting to become a tourist destination.

As I mentioned before Germany, but sure back in '46 rather than bringing freedom and democracy to the land we should of just asked the Nazis to come back because they always knew how to keep law and order didn't they.

Lets just forgot about the human rights, if uncle Gaddafi breaks your knee cap you have free healthcare. The western tourists can enjoy their plane getting shot down and you can proudly put your hand on your heart as you drive past the gold plated palace.

There is a reason that they people rose up, your whole argument is worthless because you claim that libya was so secure beforehand, yet how come civil war broke out?

[Capto]

There is a reason that they people rose up, your whole argument is worthless because you claim that libya was so secure beforehand, yet how come civil war broke out?

Libya was secure only because it was scared. However, it didn't need to be scared, as Gaddafi kept his military deliberately weak whilst still maintaining a police state and ridiculous censorship. It didn't take much more than Tunisia and Egypt next door to break the fear of the Libyan peoples. And it worked out for them.

[britishboy]

I never said it did, so you need to stop saying that.

Also, the Libyan climate in the more 'important' cities is a nice mediterranean climate. :)

I dont think theres a lot left of the cities:P and if I had to visit Africa, I would visit Kenya or Egypt

So you'd rather have a barely stable country with Al-Qaeda militas roaming around in Toyota pick-up trucks with mounted 50 cals than a iron fisted dictator that keeps things in order? You must like having countries like current day Iraq, where people are getting blown to pieces by carbombs and dying in gunfights on a daily basis.

Im talking pre 2011, Libya was the richest country in Africa, had free education for all citizens, doing pretty well for itself. Also, like Capto said it was starting to become a tourist destination.

its funny I like being able to call me leaders fat and keep my limbs! and they have just had a revolution, alot of rebuilding is needed

I think this thread is getting to off topic. So we can talk about Independance Day, or I'll have to have a mod lock this thead. I'd love to debate more about this, but it's not related to the topic.

Thank you.

alright do you think its odd how America is such good friends with Britian? I know it was an old war but you guys celibate independence so much, you would think we wouldn't be allies at all

[Capto]

I dont think theres a lot left of the cities:P and if I had to visit Africa, I would visit Kenya or Egypt


Best places in Africa to visit right now?

Malawi, Morocco, Ethiopia, Nigeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe [only for its natural wonders], and indeed, Kenya. And maybe Egypt later. :)

[Southside]

That's a suprise, I thought the source would be from a reliable news company rather than a biased pressure group. Both those sources are biased and unreliable.

When he was in power you had a goddam civil war as Jack said. It shows that the oppression provided false pressure until the people rose up. You whole argument is based on libya being better under Gaddafi. Your ignoring the fact that democracy has been brought, the Libyan people have justice. Your whole view point is very mixed, you complain about Al-Qauda militia yet in this and other threads you have condemndedthe west for trying to sort out Islamic radicals. You've got a patchwork argument

So a human rights watch group is a biased source? Did you read both articles?

Since you have problems seeing my points, I'll state them and clarify them

1. Libya was more prosperous and safer before the 2011 Civil War

2. NATO bombed civilian infrastructure such as pipe-making factories and apartment complexes, that's not being condemned by anyone.

3. You keep saying "Libya is a democracy" and all that BS when its really a "rogue state" as you call it. Benghazi attack is a prime example of this....They lack a strong government and a strong security force to stop these Islamic radical militas
Sources: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcry2qrcld0


4. I condemned the West for doing that with Syria, Not Libya.

And on that note, I'm done since the OP stated we needed to get back on topic.

Nothing really to celebrate on independence day for me except my birthday. I honor those who died in wars, no doubt, I have the utmost respect and gratitude for our service people. I'm just not into the whole patriotic "AMERICA WE'RE NUMBER 1" type view of things, not after all the BS we've did in the last few decades.

[Capto]

alright do you think its odd how America is such good friends with Britian? I know it was an old war but you guys celibate independence so much, you would think we wouldn't be allies at all

I don't think it's odd in the slightest. I don't really see a reason for us to hate you. :P

[britishboy]

Best places in Africa to visit right now?

Malawi, Morocco, Ethiopia, Nigeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe [only for its natural wonders], and indeed, Kenya. And maybe Egypt later. :)

it doesn't really matter lol im not a fan if Africa:p

I don't think it's odd in the slightest. I don't really see a reason for us to hate you. :P

well every year you have massive celebrations about you beating us, gaining independence and freeing slaves:P I think its because our countries are sooooooo similar its impossible not to be best buddies:D

Please don't double post. ~max

[Walter Powers]

I dont think theres a lot left of the cities:P and if I had to visit Africa, I would visit Kenya or Egypt



its funny I like being able to call me leaders fat and keep my limbs! and they have just had a revolution, alot of rebuilding is needed



alright do you think its odd how America is such good friends with Britian? I know it was an old war but you guys celibate independence so much, you would think we wouldn't be allies at all

Well, Britain has some things wrong, like giving the evil George III"s great-great-great granddaughter the crown, but you are much better then the other alliance options :)

Let me ask you this: Don't you think it's odd how Britain is such good friends with America? YOU attacked US in the revolutionary war, I believe, not the other way around.

[Capto]

Well, Britain has some things wrong, like giving the evil George III"s great-great-great granddaughter the crown, but you are much better then the other alliance options :)

Let me ask you this: Don't you think it's odd how Britain is such good friends with America? YOU attacked US in the revolutionary war, I believe, not the other way around.

Interestingly enough, no one declared war in the Revolution, as the UK didn't recognize the Declaration of Independence nor its signatories as a legitimate state.

[Harry Smith]

Well, Britain has some things wrong, like giving the evil George III"s great-great-great granddaughter the crown, but you are much better then the other alliance options :)

Let me ask you this: Don't you think it's odd how Britain is such good friends with America? YOU attacked US in the revolutionary war, I believe, not the other way around.

1) George III had nothing to do with the WOI, christ he was probably in bed with his mistress. The decisions were made by parliament, every american thinks that George III personally oversaw it. He didn't do anything, he was in Hanover half the time.

2) You shot at our redcoats in Boston, we had every right to fire into that crowd of unarmed protesters

[Capto]

2) You shot at our redcoats in Boston, we had every right to fire into that crowd of unarmed protesters

We had weapons in Boston? Just asking.

[Harry Smith]

We had weapons in Boston? Just asking.

Yeah, well the British claim that someone shot at them hence why they returned fire

[Capto]

Yeah, well the British claim that someone shot at them hence why they returned fire

Typical rednecks. Firing at the British without even saying a word! Oh the nerve!

[britishboy]

Well, Britain has some things wrong, like giving the evil George III"s great-great-great granddaughter the crown, but you are much better then the other alliance options :)

Let me ask you this: Don't you think it's odd how Britain is such good friends with America? YOU attacked US in the revolutionary war, I believe, not the other way around.

why would we declare war on a colony? you declared it on us because of slavery? I think? and us brits are awesome, dont deny it;)

[Harry Smith]

Typical rednecks. Firing at the British without even saying a word! Oh the nerve!

I know, the honorable thing to do is to at least tell us you wish to kill us

why would we declare war on a colony? you
declared it on us because of slavery? I think? and us brits are awesome, dont deny it;)

It wasn't to do with Slavery, in fact slavery was what causes the American civil war in 1860. It was to do with the yanks wanting to have a say in our parliment

[Capto]

why would we declare war on a colony? you declared it on us because of slavery? I think? and us brits are awesome, dont deny it;)

Not related to slavery in the remotest. Because y'all attempted to take improper advantage of us with a bunch of laws. And apparently we wanted proper citizenship in the British Empire as Brits rather than American colonists.

I know, the honorable thing to do is to at least tell us you wish to kill us


"Hey Brits."

"Yeah?"

"Just as an FYI, we're going to revolt in Boston."

"Oh, OK. If you do anything violent to us we're going to shoot you though."

"Ehh, OK. We probably will."

"Alright, thanks for letting us know."

"No problem."


-In your haste to make a joke, please do not double post. -Emerald Dream

[britishboy]

It wasn't to do with Slavery, in fact slavery was what causes the American civil war in 1860. It was to do with the yanks wanting to have a say in our parliment

alright thanks for clearing that up:)

Not related to slavery in the remotest. Because y'all attempted to take improper advantage of us with a bunch of laws. And apparently we wanted proper citizenship in the British Empire as Brits rather than American colonists.

we built america! thats gotta count for something!:p and you were lucky compared to india or south africa and not everyone in the empire could be british with out making a country such as the soviet union


-please do not double post. -Emerald Dream

[Capto]

we built america! thats gotta count for something!:p and you were lucky compared to india or south africa and not everyone in the empire could be british with out making a country such as the soviet union

So? India was Indian. South Africa was African, Dutch, and British. America at the time was primarily inhabited by Brits, with the exception of some French, Swedes, Spanish, and Dutch.

You created America, but we built it. :P

[britishboy]

So? India was Indian. South Africa was African, Dutch, and British. America at the time was primarily inhabited by Brits, with the exception of some French, Swedes, Spanish, and Dutch.

You created America, but we built it. :P

true true :P

[Emerald Dream]

Best places in Africa to visit right now?

Malawi, Morocco, Ethiopia, Nigeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe [only for its natural wonders], and indeed, Kenya. And maybe Egypt later. :)

Let's try to stay on topic, please. If you wish to discuss African tourism, you are more than welcome to start another thread.

[STEALTHy]

“You have to love a nation that celebrates its independence every July 4, not with a parade of guns, tanks, and soldiers who file by the White House in a show of strength and muscle, but with family picnics where kids throw Frisbees, the potato salad gets iffy, and the flies die from happiness. You may think you have overeaten, but it is patriotism.” ~ Erma Bombeck