Abortion

[Walter Powers]

What do you think about abortion? When should it be legal, and when should it be against the law (in cases of rape, after the second trimester, if it could kill the mother, etc.)? Why?

I think it should never be legal in the third trimester, in the second semester it should be legal if a doctor determines it to be threatening the mothers life (10% or more chance the mother could die), and in the first semester it should also be legal in cases of rape/incest. But I'm not totally decided on this, so I wanted to hear other viewpoints and the reasoning behind them.

[Harry Smith]

It should be legal up to 24 weeks, that gives the mother enough time to make a decision, it doesn't matter who the father is or whether she could die, she has a right to abort the fetus is she wants to

[Gigablue]

I would say it should be legal until birth, since until then, the fetus still depends on the mother's body. However, in practice, very few abortions would be done in the later stages of pregnancy. Mothers wanting abortions would get them early on instead of waiting a long time, and very few, if any, doctors would preform abortions past the point of viability.

In short, abortion should be legal at any point in the pregnancy, regardless the circumstances that caused it.

[Nomdeplume]

she has a right to abort the fetus is she wants to

Girl has a "right" to buy a dress online then send it back if she doesn't want to keep it
Girl has a "right" to let herself get pregnant then decide if she wants to keep it

Do you not think treating pregnancy as casually as this is a little bit wrong?

[Jess]

It should always be legal, no matter what. It's not up to us to decide for a woman; it's her choice and hers alone. No one else has the right to tell her what to do, just because they believe it to be wrong. Better to keep it safe and legal.

[Harry Smith]

Girl has a "right" to buy a dress online then send it back if she doesn't want to keep it
Girl has a "right" to let herself get pregnant then decide if she wants to keep it

Do you not think treating pregnancy as casually as this is a little bit wrong?

Actually your first one is incorrect, many online shops don't allow returns unless the product is faulty.

No, I'm not treating it casually, I'm saying she has a legal right to abort, just like she has a right to vote or a right to work

[Walter Powers]

I would say it should be legal until birth, since until then, the fetus still depends on the mother's body. However, in practice, very few abortions would be done in the later stages of pregnancy. Mothers wanting abortions would get them early on instead of waiting a long time, and very few, if any, doctors would preform abortions past the point of viability.

In short, abortion should be legal at any point in the pregnancy, regardless the circumstances that caused it.

If so few of these late term abortions are done, why are you against outlawing them?

[Gigablue]

If so few of these late term abortions are done, why are you against outlawing them?

I still think that the mother's rights outweigh those of the fetus until birth. By outlawing them, you would be taking away rights for no reason.

[Nomdeplume]

Actually your first one is incorrect, many online shops don't allow returns unless the product is faulty.

No, I'm not treating it casually, I'm saying she has a legal right to abort, just like she has a right to vote or a right to work

She certainly does. My point was instead of telling her about her rights maybe it's better to tell her to think before she gets pregnant in the first place.

And how does a woman (or man) have a right to work? If that was true there'd be no unemployment.

[Gigablue]

She certainly does. My point was instead of telling her about her rights maybe it's better to tell her to think before she gets pregnant in the first place.

And how does a woman (or man) have a right to work? If that was true there'd be no unemployment.

Of course it's better to prevent unwanted pregnancies, but unfortunately they happen. She should still have the right to get an abortion.

[Walter Powers]

I still think that the mother's rights outweigh those of the fetus until birth. By outlawing them, you would be taking away rights for no reason.

other then protecting the rights of the child! I don't see why it should be legal to kill a baby 2 days before it would be born, and yet it's considered murder if it happened an hour afterwords.

It should always be legal, no matter what. It's not up to us to decide for a woman; it's her choice and hers alone. No one else has the right to tell her what to do, just because they believe it to be wrong. Better to keep it safe and legal.

See the problem is that then that's interfering with the rights of the baby. An inconvinence for the mother is life or death for the child. They'res overwealming evidence that a baby can feel it after 24 weeks. Why would you support it after that point?

Please edit your message instead of double posting. -Steven

[Gigablue]

other then protecting the rights of the child! I don't see why it should be legal to kill a baby 2 days before it would be born, and yet it's considered murder if it happened an hour afterwords.

As long as the fetus depends on the mother, she has the choice as to whether she wants to carry it.

In real life, no doctor would ever do an abortion a few days before birth. They would either refuse or perform a Caesarian and then the baby could be put up for adoption.

[Walter Powers]

As long as the fetus depends on the mother, she has the choice as to whether she wants to carry it.

In real life, no doctor would ever do an abortion a few days before birth. They would either refuse or perform a Caesarian and then the baby could be put up for adoption.

So how about we outlaw abortions for the last trimester, then? If the mother for whatever reason doesn't want to have the baby, she can do it before it reaches that stage in the pregnancy.

After 24 weeks the fetus can live outside the mother's body. I don't see how you can justify aborting the baby after then; they shouldn't be punished for your mistake. I would argue that after that point abortion should be no only illegal, but also regarded as murder. The mother should make that decision before that point.

[Nomdeplume]

Of course it's better to prevent unwanted pregnancies, but unfortunately they happen.

For sure. But if a woman has a right to have an abortion surely she also has a responsibility to prevent herself getting pregnant when she isn't willing/able to raise a child?

I'd agree with abortion if only to prevent a kid being born to a bad mother

[kenoloor]

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i379/Hypnotize310/oh-look-its-this-thread-again.jpg

Feel free to browse this comprehensive list that I've provided you of virtually every single solitary relevant motherfucking abortion thread posted in this damn forum.

click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178200&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171047&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149530&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142274&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113747&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=132875&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127658&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120916&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109116&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104209&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95386&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66288&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68734&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71092&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4314&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50919&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45654&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39355&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2927&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3146&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2053&highlight=abortion)

Now can every newfag self-labelled "intellectual" PLEASE stop posting this same fucking thread. Thanks.

[Walter Powers]

image (http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i379/Hypnotize310/oh-look-its-this-thread-again.jpg)

Feel free to browse this comprehensive list that I've provided you of virtually every single solitary relevant motherfucking abortion thread posted in this damn forum.

click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178200&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171047&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149530&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142274&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113747&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=132875&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127658&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120916&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109116&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104209&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95386&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66288&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68734&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71092&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4314&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=50919&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45654&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39355&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2927&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3146&highlight=abortion)
click (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2053&highlight=abortion)

Now can every newfag self-labelled "intellectual" PLEASE stop posting this same fucking thread. Thanks.

Some of us don't like scrolling through forty seven million responses, thanks. And a lot of those are locked.

[Bougainvillea]

I think it should never be legal in the third trimester, in the second semester it should be legal if a doctor determines it to be threatening the mothers life (10% or more chance the mother could die), and in the first semester it should also be legal in cases of rape/incest.

This is always a half-assed cop out, and I fucking hate it.

There are no circumstances. There can be, but no matter what it should always be her decision. You have no right telling someone when and why it should be okay, because you will never understand what it's like to have an abortion, or to even consider and abortion, because obviously you will never have one.

Who the fuck cares if its not incest or rape. Why is it not okay otherwise? Accidents can happen, or you might not be able to take care of it, or you don't want to deal with the pressure of knowing you have a child out there.

There are no circumstances. It's a choice, and its a right. Not one to be determined by someone who thinks its only okay if you go through the worst of situations, even though just having an abortion is hard enough.

[Cygnus]

I agree with population control and think the pro-choice things are a good start. Seriously there are a bunch of unwanted babies who are miserable in their lives. Also, god doesn't exist so he will punish no one for that. Long live population control.

[Walter Powers]

This is always a half-assed cop out, and I fucking hate it.

There are no circumstances. There can be, but no matter what it should always be her decision. You have no right telling someone when and why it should be okay, because you will never understand what it's like to have an abortion, or to even consider and abortion, because obviously you will never have one.

Who the fuck cares if its not incest or rape. Why is it not okay otherwise? Accidents can happen, or you might not be able to take care of it, or you don't want to deal with the pressure of knowing you have a child out there.

There are no circumstances. It's a choice, and its a right. Not one to be determined by someone who thinks its only okay if you go through the worst of situations, even though just having an abortion is hard enough.

I just don't understand what's wrong with prohibiting abortions in the third trimester. I'm not taking away the mother's right to choose; simply shortenning the decision period. We just have to mindful that after a certain point the child can feel and think. We may not see the pain they go through in an abortion, but it's there. If the mother made a mistake, fine, but she should own up and have it the fetus terminated early before things really start developing. Why are you opposed to this common sense regulation?

[Bougainvillea]

Egh I actually agree with that, I meant to delete the first part of the sentence.

[confusedteen33]

If it was from rape, or could kill the mother it should be legal, if not that, illegal

[Southside]

It should always be legal, no matter what. It's not up to us to decide for a woman; it's her choice and hers alone. No one else has the right to tell her what to do, just because they believe it to be wrong. Better to keep it safe and legal.

I've always wanted to ask you this question..

Why abort a potential human being when its options such as adoption that are avaliable? It's sickening that most abortions take place due to fears of "lifestyle changes"..... Im not Anti-Abortion due me being Christian, Im Anti-Abortion because of the other options.

Source on reasons women have abortions:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

[Walter Powers]

I've always wanted to ask you this question..

Why abort a potential human being when its options such as adoption that are avaliable? It's sickening that most abortions take place due to fears of "lifestyle changes".....

Wow in the Israel Iran debate I was thinking I'd never agree with you on anything. But what do you know :)

[Gigablue]

I've always wanted to ask you this question..

Why abort a potential human being when its options such as adoption that are avaliable? It's sickening that most abortions take place due to fears of "lifestyle changes"..... Im not Anti-Abortion due me being Christian, Im Anti-Abortion because of the other options.

Source on reasons women have abortions:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

The fetus doesn't have the same rights as the mother. The mother is unarguably a human being, while the fetus can't think or feel, and crucially, can't live on its own. It depends entirely on the mother. Because of this, the mother has the choice as to whether she wants to lend her body to the fetus for nine months. I she, for any reason, doesn't want to, she shouldn't have to.

[Samual]

I am not for abortion at all. If a woman has a baby, then its her fault for not using a condom, unless the condom didn't work, I still don't think they should just kill it.

[Jess]

I am not for abortion at all. If a woman has a baby, then its her fault for not using a condom, unless the condom didn't work, I still don't think they should just kill it.

It's not your decision to make

I've always wanted to ask you this question..

Why abort a potential human being when its options such as adoption that are avaliable? It's sickening that most abortions take place due to fears of "lifestyle changes"..... Im not Anti-Abortion due me being Christian, Im Anti-Abortion because of the other options.

Source on reasons women have abortions:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Same reply as above. It's not your place to make the decision. And I believe the adoption system is a bit corrupted? Aren't there already so many children in need of a home already?

Abortion should always remain an option.

I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-ABORTION. The woman should have the CHOICE, it's HERS to make alone.

[kenoloor]

Some of us don't like scrolling through forty seven million responses, thanks. And a lot of those are locked.

Well then what the fuck is the point of this thread if you don't like reading responses? The responses in the threads I posted are all going to be exactly the fucking same as the responses in this thread.

[Walter Powers]

It's not your decision to make



Same reply as above. It's not your place to make the decision. And I believe the adoption system is a bit corrupted? Aren't there already so many children in need of a home already?

Abortion should always remain an option.

I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-ABORTION. The woman should have the CHOICE, it's HERS to make alone.

Why? Unless it is a threat to her life, the abortion is going to have a much much larger impact on the child's life then her's.

And I really don't see the logic in saying "the adoption system sucks, so you should kill the baby instead of putting it up for adoption"!

I reiterate: What's wrong with just outlawing third trimester abortions? It lets the women make a choice; just shortens the time she has to do it. If she really cares enough about the child not to want to put them in our "bad" adoption system", she should want to have it done before the child would feel anything.

[Gigablue]

I am not for abortion at all. If a woman has a baby, then its her fault for not using a condom, unless the condom didn't work, I still don't think they should just kill it.

Why blame only the mother? Isn't the father also equally responsible? Also, if the mother doesn't want a child, but has one anyway, it will likely have a very bad life. Why force a child to be born to parents who don't want it?

Why? Unless it is a threat to her life, the abortion is going to have a much much larger impact on the child's life then her's.

What child? It's a fetus, not a child. The fetus is completely dependant on the mother, therefore her rights overrule those of the fetus. It's her decision to make.

And I really don't see the logic in saying "the adoption system sucks, so you should kill the baby instead of putting it up for adoption"!

Adoption should always be an option, and I think it's preferable, but abortion needs to be an option as well. Why should the mother be forced to carry a fetus she doesn't want, only to put it up for adoption. If she wants to, she should be able to, but if she doesn't, she shouldn't be blamed for her choice.

I reiterate: What's wrong with just outlawing third trimester abortions? It lets the women make a choice; just shortens the time she has to do it. If she really cares enough about the child not to want to put them in our "bad" adoption system", she should want to have it done before the child would feel anything.

The main reason for late term abortions is that the woman didn't know she was pregnant, so she couldn't have made the decision earlier. Also, the fetus can't feel anything before about 26-28 weeks, and even after that, it probably doesn't feel pain in the same way that we do.

[LouBerry]

Constitutionally abortion should be up to the State legislate. So it would turn out looking a lot like gay rights. You'd have states like Cali. that would legalize it, and states like Ark. that wouldn't. That's the reason we have State governments.

Now, morally, I think abortion is murder and it makes me sick that it's okay.

If I walked up to a woman that was pregnant, and going to keep her baby, and punched her, causing her to lose the child, I'd be charged with manslaughter.
But if I want to get rid of my baby because I'm irresponsible and I'm not ready to be a parent, it's not only legal, but I'm applauded for my support of woman's rights. Logic?

[Harry Smith]

Constitutionally abortion should be up to the State legislate. So it would turn out looking a lot like gay rights. You'd have states like Cali. that would legalize it, and states like Ark. that wouldn't. That's the reason we have State governments.

Now, morally, I think abortion is murder and it makes me sick that it's okay.

If I walked up to a woman that was pregnant, and going to keep her baby, and punched her, causing her to lose the child, I'd be charged with manslaughter.
But if I want to get rid of my baby because I'm irresponsible and I'm not ready to be a parent, it's not only legal, but I'm applauded for my support of woman's rights. Logic?

So do you want it to be made illegal, and then women will still have backstreet abortions, banning abortions will not stop them from happening, it's like saying if you ban drinking Alcohol that no-one will drink anymore

[Rayquaza]

I'm for it and against it.

I'm for it in the way that a woman should have her own decision, but I'm against it in the way that people shouldn't have sex and create life without knowing the repercussions, and that the procedure of it is incredibly unethical.

[Gigablue]

Constitutionally abortion should be up to the State legislate. So it would turn out looking a lot like gay rights. You'd have states like Cali. that would legalize it, and states like Ark. that wouldn't. That's the reason we have State governments.

I will never understand the American idea of giving so much power to the states. Abortion is a basic human rights issue. Why should states be given the power to take away rights? Human rights should be universal.

If I walked up to a woman that was pregnant, and going to keep her baby, and punched her, causing her to lose the child, I'd be charged with manslaughter.
But if I want to get rid of my baby because I'm irresponsible and I'm not ready to be a parent, it's not only legal, but I'm applauded for my support of woman's rights. Logic?

Only the mother can make the decision to get an abortion. No one else can make it for her. Since the mother is the one who has to carry the fetus, she can choose to keep it or not. If you cause a mother to lose the pregnancy, you are making the choice for her. The two situations are not analogous.

[Walter Powers]

So do you want it to be made illegal, and then women will still have backstreet abortions, banning abortions will not stop them from happening, it's like saying if you ban drinking Alcohol that no-one will drink anymore

So? Just because some people run red lights doesn't mean we should make it legal.

Why blame only the mother? Isn't the father also equally responsible? Also, if the mother doesn't want a child, but has one anyway, it will likely have a very bad life. Why force a child to be born to parents who don't want it?


What child? It's a fetus, not a child. The fetus is completely dependant on the mother, therefore her rights overrule those of the fetus. It's her decision to make.



Adoption should always be an option, and I think it's preferable, but abortion needs to be an option as well. Why should the mother be forced to carry a fetus she doesn't want, only to put it up for adoption. If she wants to, she should be able to, but if she doesn't, she shouldn't be blamed for her choice.



The main reason for late term abortions is that the woman didn't know she was pregnant, so she couldn't have made the decision earlier. Also, the fetus can't feel anything before about 26-28 weeks, and even after that, it probably doesn't feel pain in the same way that we do.


Where did you get that "fact"? I've seen abortion doctors talk about the procdure, and they say they can tell the baby is in pain.

And just because something is dependant on somebody doesn't mean if you are that somebody you should be allowed to kill it. By that logic, it's morally okay to kill your toddler that needs you to provide for them! That argument, frankly, is disgusting. The job of the government is to protect the weakl from the powerful. In this case, the mother is the powerful; and the child is the weak.

[Harry Smith]

So? Just because some people run red lights doesn't mean we should make it legal.




Where did you get that "fact"? I've seen abortion doctors talk about the procdure, and they say they can tell the baby is in pain.

And just because something is dependant on somebody doesn't mean if you are that somebody you should be allowed to kill it. By that logic, it's morally okay to kill your toddler that needs you to provide for them! That argument, frankly, is disgusting. The job of the government is to protect the weakl from the powerful. In this case, the mother is the powerful; and the child is the weak.

it's not a child, it's just a cell.

1) If abortion is made illegal what would you do about the women having backstreet abortions? You do many more would die as a result of them.

2)A tolder isn't reliant in the same way a fetus is, the fetus is just a zygote cell before 24 weeks. It's part of the mother, it's just the same as a skin cell on your body or a sperm cell

[KimuraWannabe116]

It should be legal up to 24 weeks, that gives the mother enough time to make a decision, it doesn't matter who the father is or whether she could die, she has a right to abort the fetus is she wants to


I completely agree with Harry on this one. That should give the mother enough time to decide.

[Walter Powers]

it's not a child, it's just a cell.

1) If abortion is made illegal what would you do about the women having backstreet abortions? You do many more would die as a result of them.

2)A tolder isn't reliant in the same way a fetus is, the fetus is just a zygote cell before 24 weeks. It's part of the mother, it's just the same as a skin cell on your body or a sperm cell

Did I start arguing with you. IDK. I actually think we are pretty close to agreement on this; 24 weeks is a good cutoff :)

[Rina]

I'm pro-choice. Honestly, while I do not think it's right that people who were not safe get to abort the baby, it's their choice, and if they can live with the fact then you should let them do it. Especially in extreme cases of rape and incest.

I think 12 weeks should be the deciding period, since during the 12th week, I believe is when they begin to feel pain.

[britishboy]

I'm pro-choice. Honestly, while I do not think it's right that people who were not safe get to abort the baby, it's their choice, and if they can live with the fact then you should let them do it. Especially in extreme cases of rape and incest.

I think 12 weeks should be the deciding period, since during the 12th week, I believe is when they begin to feel pain.

yeah if u poke them and 12 weeks isnt alot to decide and the foetus only knows the inside of the belly so I dont think its that bad and the pregnancy is humanly terminated so yeah 24 weeks is fine but I agree I would never like my wife or gf to abort a baby

[Walter Powers]

it's not a child, it's just a cell.

1) If abortion is made illegal what would you do about the women having backstreet abortions? You do many more would die as a result of them.

2)A tolder isn't reliant in the same way a fetus is, the fetus is just a zygote cell before 24 weeks. It's part of the mother, it's just the same as a skin cell on your body or a sperm cell

Haha I'm not sure how I started arguing with you, but I realize that we actually are relatively close to agreement. :)

24 weeks is agood cutoff.

[Gigablue]

Where did you get that "fact"? I've seen abortion doctors talk about the procdure, and they say they can tell the baby is in pain.

Here. (http://anes-som.ucsd.edu/vp%20articles/topic%20c.%20anand.pdf) That report says that the cortical structures needed for pain perception don't form until 24 weeks, though I've seen others that say 26. Also, many higher level structures responsible for the emotional aspect of pain don't form until 29-30 weeks.

And just because something is dependant on somebody doesn't mean if you are that somebody you should be allowed to kill it. By that logic, it's morally okay to kill your toddler that needs you to provide for them! That argument, frankly, is disgusting. The job of the government is to protect the weakl from the powerful. In this case, the mother is the powerful; and the child is the weak.

A toddler isn't dependant in the same way that a fetus is. The toddler depends on the parents for care, but not for its physical processes. It is biologically separate, while a fetus depends biologically on the mother. Another important difference is that the parents of a toddler are able to transfer the responsibility to care for it to someone else, whereas a pregnant woman cannot.

Basically, a woman should have the right to her own body. Se can choose to let a fetus use it for nine months if she wants to, but she shouldn't be obligated to. With the toddler scenario, the parents don't have to loan it their bodies; the toddler is independent from them.

I'm pro-choice. Honestly, while I do not think it's right that people who were not safe get to abort the baby, it's their choice, and if they can live with the fact then you should let them do it. Especially in extreme cases of rape and incest.

I think 12 weeks should be the deciding period, since during the 12th week, I believe is when they begin to feel pain.

Do you have any evidence that they can feel pain at 12 weeks? At that point, brain has barely developed. Something as complicated as pain is impossible. Also, it's possible for women to not know that they're pregnant until after 12 weeks. Setting the limit that early would punish these women for no reason.

[Walter Powers]

Here. (http://anes-som.ucsd.edu/vp%20articles/topic%20c.%20anand.pdf) That report says that the cortical structures needed for pain perception don't form until 24 weeks, though I've seen others that say 26. Also, many higher level structures responsible for the emotional aspect of pain don't form until 29-30 weeks.



A toddler isn't dependant in the same way that a fetus is. The toddler depends on the parents for care, but not for its physical processes. It is biologically separate, while a fetus depends biologically on the mother. Another important difference is that the parents of a toddler are able to transfer the responsibility to care for it to someone else, whereas a pregnant woman cannot.

Basically, a woman should have the right to her own body. Se can choose to let a fetus use it for nine months if she wants to, but she shouldn't be obligated to. With the toddler scenario, the parents don't have to loan it their bodies; the toddler is independent from them.



Do you have any evidence that they can feel pain at 12 weeks? At that point, brain has barely developed. Something as complicated as pain is impossible. Also, it's possible for women to not know that they're pregnant until after 12 weeks. Setting the limit that early would punish these women for no reason.

So would you support making abortion illegal only after 24 weeks, then?

[Southside]

It's not your decision to make



Same reply as above. It's not your place to make the decision. And I believe the adoption system is a bit corrupted? Aren't there already so many children in need of a home already?

Abortion should always remain an option.

I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-ABORTION. The woman should have the CHOICE, it's HERS to make alone.

If I was a father and my wife was thinking about having a abortion, shouldnt I have a say? Its thousands of homes willing to take in children, no excuse. Why kill when its non-lethal options avaliable? Thats my biggest argument against abortions

[LouBerry]

So do you want it to be made illegal, and then women will still have backstreet abortions, banning abortions will not stop them from happening, it's like saying if you ban drinking Alcohol that no-one will drink anymore

Apparently, you can't read. It should be legal. In fact, we have already had this discussion.

[kenoloor]

If I was a father and my wife was thinking about having a abortion, shouldnt I have a say?

Are you carrying a living being inside of you that leeches off of your biological resources for nine and a half months? No? Then no, you don't get a fucking say.

[Walter Powers]

Are you carrying a living being inside of you that leeches off of your biological resources for nine and a half months? No? Then no, you don't get a fucking say.

Well, the fetus can't advocate for itself. Somebody has to advocate for it :)

[kenoloor]

Well, the fetus can't advocate for itself. Somebody has to advocate for it :)

You're implying that it has the same rights as a fully developed human being, which we've already established earlier in this shithole of a thread that it does not. Besides, what the hell does the bio-dad have to endure? Nothing. Bringing us back to my post which you quoted.

[Walter Powers]

You're implying that it has the same rights as a fully developed human being, which we've already established earlier in this shithole of a thread that it does not. Besides, what the hell does the bio-dad have to endure? Nothing. Bringing us back to my post which you quoted.

We established that after 24 for weeks it should have it's own rights, because at that point it's more human then cell.

[yviedarling]

I am very adamant about this. I went through a pretty eye opening experience with my own child's birth. I believe NO CHILD should ever be killed. We are all human at the point of conception.
In the cases of rape, I think adoption is the right answer. Yes, I get it, something terrible happened to you, it wasn't your fault. But you somehow think that somebody forcing you to do something disgusting is grounds for you to force a defenseless baby to die? How does that even make sense? If you don't want to have the baby in your life, do the right thing, put it up for adoption. Let it be loved and cared for. Just because you don't want to have a baby in your life doesn't mean you should just kill it.

When I was pregnant, they asked me if I still wanted to have my child because it could kill me if I tried to give birth naturally (that being without a c-section) and you know what? I said I did. I love my child and I would have died for him like any true mother would. And I still would.

That's just my opinion, though. There are many.

Are you carrying a living being inside of you that leeches off of your biological resources for nine and a half months? No? Then no, you don't get a fucking say.

I let the father of my children have a say, and we were already broken up. It took two to make the babies, so it's not just my say.

And a child is not a leech. Stop making such a gift sound like a monster. The babies don't ask to be here.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[kenoloor]

I let the father of my children have a say, and we were already broken up. It took two to make the babies, so it's not just my say.

And a child is not a leech. Stop making such a gift sound like a monster. The babies don't ask to be here.

I didn't say it was a leech, I said it was leeching, which is exactly what it does. If it didn't leech from the carrier, it wouldn't survive. Just because you let the bio-father have a choice doesn't mean that it should be mandatory. The carrier should make an entirely independent decision because the carrier is the one that has to go through nine and a half months of pregnancy, not the bio-father.

EDIT: Also, may I add that not all carriers view the fetus as a "gift" like you do. If the fetus was a result of rape I think it is very easy and understandable for the carrier to view the fetus as a monster and they shouldn't be blamed for that. If the carrier doesn't want to carry the fetus that is a result of someone forcing their way into your body without your permission for nine and a half months they shouldn't have to.

[Jess]

I am very adamant about this. I went through a pretty eye opening experience with my own child's birth. I believe NO CHILD should ever be killed. We are all human at the point of conception.
In the cases of rape, I think adoption is the right answer. Yes, I get it, something terrible happened to you, it wasn't your fault. But you somehow think that somebody forcing you to do something disgusting is grounds for you to force a defenseless baby to die? How does that even make sense? If you don't want to have the baby in your life, do the right thing, put it up for adoption. Let it be loved and cared for. Just because you don't want to have a baby in your life doesn't mean you should just kill it.

When I was pregnant, they asked me if I still wanted to have my child because it could kill me if I tried to give birth naturally (that being without a c-section) and you know what? I said I did. I love my child and I would have died for him like any true mother would. And I still would.

That's just my opinion, though. There are many.

That's your choice. You wouldn't go for abortion, I understand.

But it's not yours, or anyone's, place to make the decision for other women and girls because you're against it. If a woman was raped and got pregnant, and now wants an abortion, she should have the right to one. Just because other people believe she should give it up for adoption doesn't mean she should be forced into it.

I certainly am not carrying something that was the result of something horrible for 9 months. I personally would get an abortion if I got pregnant as a result of rape, but that's me.

[justinglives]

Should be legal ANY TIME and totally up to the.mother. I DO NOT believe the sperm donor.(ooops......guy who accidentally dumped.a hot load, or bc failed) should.have any veto rights.
Totaaly and .entirely up to the birl.

[yviedarling]

That's your choice. You wouldn't go for abortion, I understand.

But it's not yours, or anyone's, place to make the decision for other women and girls because you're against it. If a woman was raped and got pregnant, and now wants an abortion, she should have the right to one. Just because other people believe she should give it up for adoption doesn't mean she should be forced into it.

I certainly am not carrying something that was the result of something horrible for 9 months. I personally would get an abortion if I got pregnant as a result of rape, but that's me.

What about a child's rights? Once you're pregnant, willingly or unwillingly, I don't think it's just about you anymore.

It's not like I don't get why women would want to get an abortion, I just don't see how people can't see the baby's point of view. Think about the person you love more than anything else in the world. What if they never existed because of an abortion? I don't think anyone would agree with abortion if it was thought of that way.

I don't know. Maybe my experience biased me.

[Jess]

What about a child's rights? Once you're pregnant, willingly or unwillingly, I don't think it's just about you anymore.

It's not like I don't get why women would want to get an abortion, I just don't see how people can't see the baby's point of view. Think about the person you love more than anything else in the world. What if they never existed because of an abortion? I don't think anyone would agree with abortion if it was thought of that way.

I don't know. Maybe my experience biased me.

I see the "baby" as just a clump of cells in the early stages, not yet a real human being. So therefore, it has no "rights", or at least, it shouldn't trump a woman's

I'm just for letting the woman make her own choice, not have anyone choose for her. I don't necessarily agree with abortion...

[yviedarling]

I see the "baby" as just a clump of cells in the early stages, not yet a real human being. So therefore, it has no "rights", or at least, it shouldn't trump a woman's

I'm just for letting the woman make her own choice, not have anyone choose for her. I don't necessarily agree with abortion...

Oh, okay, then we just see the baby differently. I think that's what it all comes down to, really.

[chrisawesome]

Hmmm, should abortion be legal?

Well, should murder be legal? if so then NO

[Walter Powers]

I am very adamant about this. I went through a pretty eye opening experience with my own child's birth. I believe NO CHILD should ever be killed. We are all human at the point of conception.
In the cases of rape, I think adoption is the right answer. Yes, I get it, something terrible happened to you, it wasn't your fault. But you somehow think that somebody forcing you to do something disgusting is grounds for you to force a defenseless baby to die? How does that even make sense? If you don't want to have the baby in your life, do the right thing, put it up for adoption. Let it be loved and cared for. Just because you don't want to have a baby in your life doesn't mean you should just kill it.

When I was pregnant, they asked me if I still wanted to have my child because it could kill me if I tried to give birth naturally (that being without a c-section) and you know what? I said I did. I love my child and I would have died for him like any true mother would. And I still would.

That's just my opinion, though. There are many.



I let the father of my children have a say, and we were already broken up. It took two to make the babies, so it's not just my say.

And a child is not a leech. Stop making such a gift sound like a monster. The babies don't ask to be here.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

This post is very moving. It takes a truly humble and decent person to be willing to make such a sacrafice. Thanks for sharing your opinion!

[yviedarling]

This post is very moving. It takes a truly humble and decent person to be willing to make such a sacrafice. Thanks for sharing your opinion!

No problem. I love putting my two cents in, anyway, ha.

[Walter Powers]

Should be legal ANY TIME and totally up to the.mother. I DO NOT believe the sperm donor.(ooops......guy who accidentally dumped.a hot load, or bc failed) should.have any veto rights.
Totaaly and .entirely up to the birl.

What's wrong withlimiting it to before 24 weeks pregnancy? That's plenty of time to make a decision, and after that it's putting the baby through tremendous pain. I don't know where you live, but here in the US the first of our natural rights is LIFE.

[chrisawesome]

This post is very moving. It takes a truly humble and decent person to be willing to make such a sacrafice. Thanks for sharing your opinion!

I never thought about that in the case of rape, if rate at which children are adopted werent so low that would be a great idea!!!

[Walter Powers]

I never thought about that in the case of rape, if rate at which children are adopted werent so low that would be a great idea!!!

Where did you get that idea? There are thousands of da couples who can't have children for whatever reason who want to adopt but can't; that's why they end up getting kids from China. There's none here!


Hmmm, should abortion be legal?

Well, should murder be legal? if so then NO

Exactly.

[saea97]

I don't know whether the presence of willing adoptive parents has any sway on the argument. Some mothers would choose to carry the child and have it adopted, some mothers would choose regardless to abort the foetus. Both of them should have the right to; nobody should tell a pregnant woman what she can and can't do with her body.
And in my opinion, there shouldn't be a time limit (although I think the more moderate arguments of "abortion up until x weeks" have a lot of clout); as long as the foetus is in there, it is dependent on the mother, so until it comes out, she is more important.

Hmmm, should abortion be legal?

Well, should murder be legal? if so then NO

A totally irrelevant equation. Abortion is in no way the same as murder, and you are in no way qualified to restrict the rights of pregnant women to make a CHOICE based on one emotive but baseless parallel.

[dannym2326]

What do you think about abortion? When should it be legal, and when should it be against the law (in cases of rape, after the second trimester, if it could kill the mother, etc.)? Why?

I think it should never be legal in the third trimester, in the second semester it should be legal if a doctor determines it to be threatening the mothers life (10% or more chance the mother could die), and in the first semester it should also be legal in cases of rape/incest. But I'm not totally decided on this, so I wanted to hear other viewpoints and the reasoning behind them.

So you think it should be illegal in the third trimester even if the woman's life is threatened? :rolleyes:

[Walter Powers]

So you think it should be illegal in the third trimester even if the woman's life is threatened? :rolleyes:

Yes, because at that point the fetus is a person, too. And In general we want to put younger people ahead of older people who've already had a chance at life.

[WickedWeekend]

Just to note, no one is for abortion. I'm for the right to make the decision if the need ever arises. I believe it is the mother's choice whether to abort the child or not, since she is carrying the baby.

Would I want one of my potential children to be aborted? No, I'd put them up for adoption after birth, but it ultimately is the mother's choice, since she is the one carrying the baby.

Pro-abortion =/= pro-choice

[britishboy]

Yes, because at that point the fetus is a person, too. And In general we want to put younger people ahead of older people who've already had a chance at life.

really? the mother is already alive and have family and friends and the opportunity to pro create again but the baby could be a miscarriage and has no one that would prefer its life over the mothers

[Jess]

Just to note, no one is for abortion. I'm for the right to make the decision if the need ever arises. I believe it is the mother's choice whether to abort the child or not, since she is carrying the baby.

Would I want one of my potential children to be aborted? No, I'd put them up for adoption after birth, but it ultimately is the mother's choice, since she is the one carrying the baby.

Pro-abortion =/= pro-choice

This is exactly what I believe.

[Walter Powers]

really? the mother is already alive and have family and friends and the opportunity to pro create again but the baby could be a miscarriage and has no one that would prefer its life over the mothers

Okay, allow me to elaborate. I think that, after 24 weeks, if the doctors deem baby is more likely to live then the mother, she can't get an abortion.

[britishboy]

Okay, allow me to elaborate. I think that, after 24 weeks, if the doctors deem baby is more likely to live then the mother, she can't get an abortion.

really? if your wife that you have loved for years is lying pregnant and extremely ill and the only chance to save her is to kill the child what would you do?

[Walter Powers]

really? if your wife that you have loved for years is lying pregnant and extremely ill and the only chance to save her is to kill the child what would you do?

It depends on the odds.

[britishboy]

It depends on the odds.

but if its illegal the odds wouldn't matter, you cant save her, see what I mean?

[Walter Powers]

but if its illegal the odds wouldn't matter, you cant save her, see what I mean?

No, I mean I'd base the laws off of the odds of survival; if the mother was more likely to survive then the baby, she could have an abortion.

[britishboy]

No, I mean I'd base the laws off of the odds of survival; if the mother was more likely to survive then the baby, she could have an abortion.

ok I see your logic but I will prefer my wifes life to ne favored no matter the odds

[Walter Powers]

ok I see your logic but I will prefer my wifes life to ne favored no matter the odds

So you'd put your wife ahead of your kids?

[britishboy]

So you'd put your wife ahead of your kids?

thats like chosing what gun to shot your self with! I would chose my wife because I will love her and my children are not alive yet

[Harry Smith]

So you'd put your wife ahead of your kids?

As much as you would like to say on a forum that your a humanist, in all likelyhood this would be the women that you live with, who you love and who is pretty much your life. If you had a choice between her and something which has not experienced any life or hasn't gathered a bond then as brutal as it sounds your going to pick your wife

[Walter Powers]

As much as you would like to say on a forum that your a humanist, in all likelyhood this would be the women that you live with, who you love and who is pretty much your life. If you had a choice between her and something which has not experienced any life or hasn't gathered a bond then as brutal as it sounds your going to pick your wife

I guess it depends on how much you love her.

[badthoughts]

edit

[Walter Powers]

Hopefully a man loves his wife more than the English language can express. Statistically, though, I suppose that kind of love and devotion to one's spouse is more rare than it is abundant.

I would hope be also loves his children more then English language can express.

[badthoughts]

edit

[Walter Powers]

Agreed.

So, what do you do? Flip a coin? Play eeny meeny miney moe? Draw straws?

You get a doctors assessment of who is more likely to survive.

[galacticwitch]

abortions should be legal everywhere but with limits on the number each person has

[britishboy]

abortions should be legal everywhere but with limits on the number each person has

why have a limit?

[galacticwitch]

why have a limit?

because the porn industry allows women to have unprotected sex which often leads to semen in the vagina, which obviously impregnates her (if birth control doesn't work). Many female pornstars have abortions in order to keep their career thriving, they'll even have 5, if they have to.

[britishboy]

because the porn industry allows women to have unprotected sex which often leads to semen in the vagina, which obviously impregnates her (if birth control doesn't work). Many female pornstars have abortions in order to keep their career thriving, they'll even have 5, if they have to.

so? if its what they want, as long as its legal I see no problem

[Achillea]

Abortion is a HUGE topic of controversy where I am from. There was case not too long ago that sparked. A couple who were in Ireland (not from Ireland) were brought to hospital. The parents both wanted this child but it was dying in her womb. Then the baby started killing the mother. The mother needed an abortion but the doctors said they couldn't do so because it was a "Catholic Country". Neither of the couple was Catholic and the baby was basically already dead. When my class (All girls)was asked about this (on numerous occasions) it was clear that nobody thought that abortion should be on demand but in certain circumstances such as rape, incest or if the baby or mother will die. Personally, I think that if I were raped, I would get the plan b pill to stop the pregnancy before it begins. If I was partaking in sex regularly and one day realised I was pregnant I would keep the baby and put him/her up for adoption. If I wanted a baby and I was very very far along and something happened and I had a loving husband or partner, I think I would continue with the pregnancy, even if was possible I could die. Then again, I'm sure when it actually happens to you, your thoughts may change. I think the Plan B pill is fine as the pregnancy hasn't begun. And if for some reason you cant do that, in my country you have to travel abroad to the UK or just into Northern Ireland which I think is a terribly easy thing to do that can make such a sad difference.

[britishboy]

Abortion is a HUGE topic of controversy where I am from. There was case not too long ago that sparked. A couple who were in Ireland (not from Ireland) were brought to hospital. The parents both wanted this child but it was dying in her womb. Then the baby started killing the mother. The mother needed an abortion but the doctors said they couldn't do so because it was a "Catholic Country". Neither of the couple was Catholic and the baby was basically already dead. When my class (All girls)was asked about this (on numerous occasions) it was clear that nobody thought that abortion should be on demand but in certain circumstances such as rape, incest or if the baby or mother will die. Personally, I think that if I were raped, I would get the plan b pill to stop the pregnancy before it begins. If I was partaking in sex regularly and one day realised I was pregnant I would keep the baby and put him/her up for adoption. If I wanted a baby and I was very very far along and something happened and I had a loving husband or partner, I think I would continue with the pregnancy, even if was possible I could die. Then again, I'm sure when it actually happens to you, your thoughts may change. I think the Plan B pill is fine as the pregnancy hasn't begun. And if for some reason you cant do that, in my country you have to travel abroad to the UK or just into Northern Ireland which I think is a terribly easy thing to do that can make such a sad difference.

pregnancy begans the second the egg is fertilized, the pill is like an early abortion

[Achillea]

Yes, I agree with you when you say that pregnancy begins at fertilisation but I believe you are misinformed. Fertilisation does not occur immediately. It takes hours, like 10-30 hours for the egg to be broken into and an additional time for the sperm to even get to the egg. This is why you take it the morning after. :)

[britishboy]

Yes, I agree with you when you say that pregnancy begins at fertilisation but I believe you are misinformed. Fertilisation does not occur immediately. It takes hours, like 10-30 hours for the egg to be broken into and an additional time for the sperm to even get to the egg. This is why you take it the morning after. :)

the morning after kills the fertilized egg, this is early abortion

[Achillea]

No, the egg ISN'T FERTILISED. As I said earlier, it takes HOURS for an egg to be fertilised after intercourse. If the pill is taken within this window, then all it does is trap the sperm or egg using a mucus making it impossible for fertilisation to occur. I think in most research the plan B pill does not work if it is already fertilised. So just to be clear, if you believe pregnancy begins at fertilisation, which you and I have both stated we do, taking this would not be considered an abortion.:whoops:

Actually a YouTube video explains this all very clearly and simply, check it outhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vozr9vHeMo Hope it explains it better than I can:)

[GigglyAbby]

I think it should be illegal unless it's medically [rape or mother and/or baby's lives are in danger] necessary. Though -- I suspect in the slim chance it'd be overturned -- there'd be tons of legal issues and illegal abortions.

[BrandonA]

I don't support abortion. Killing an innocent being just isn't right. but that's just me :p

[Melodic]

I think in some extreme cases, you should be able to, But if it's your fault, it's your baby.

[Capto]

The problem with the 'rape argument', I believe, is not demarcating the legal boundaries and definitions of rape, but rather determining the circumstances logically and efficiently enough to be certain of the conditions whilst still doing so in a quick manner.

[Gigablue]

Unless its rape I don't support abortion. Her fault she got pregnant and doesn't want the baby. Killing an innocent being just isn't right. but that's just me :p

I think in some extreme cases, you should be able to, But if it's your fault, it's your baby.

I don't understand the why people against abortion support it in cases or rape. If the fetus is a person, killing them for any reason other than self defence is wrong. Are fetuses resulting from rape less human than those resulting from sex with consent?

Also, why punish the mother? Sure she made a mistake, but punishing her with a pregnancy she doesn't want is just cruel. Furthermore, why not punish the father? He played an equal role is conception, therefore he is equally guilty. Singling out the mother is simply sexist.

[Capto]

I don't understand the why people against abortion support it in cases or rape. If the fetus is a person, killing them for any reason other than self defence is wrong. Are fetuses resulting from rape less human than those resulting from sex with consent?


Ah, but IS the fetus a person?

[Melodic]

Extreme cases is all I believe. Well if people don't want the baby, they have two choices abortion or adoption. I don't believe adoption is a bad thing if they give it to the right person. I've heard of some horrible foster families out there. Not saying all of them are bad, but the baby should be held to someone trustworthy. The mother shouldn't be punished if they choose to keep the baby. The father also needs to take care of the kid. I grew up with a half ass father most of my life anyways, and I wish my dad could be there for me when I needed him to.

[Gigablue]

Ah, but IS the fetus a person?

No. Think of the traits that you associate with people. Thought, emotion, feeling, etc. The fetus has none of them.

That wasn't really the point I was making, though. My point was that there are only two internally consistent opinions. The first being that abortion is acceptable since the mother rights trump those of the fetus, and the second being that abortion is never acceptable since the fetus is equal to the mother. To make exceptions in cases of rape is internally inconsistent.

That being said, I think the second possibility is inconsistent with the facts. Due to all the traits that the fetus lacks, it cannot be called a person. Therefore the mother, who is undeniably a person, is more important, and her rights prevail.

[Capto]

No. Think of the traits that you associate with people. Thought, emotion, feeling, etc. The fetus has none of them.


Then what would you legally qualify a fetus as?

[Gigablue]

Then what would you legally qualify a fetus as?

Something other than a person. The fetus should have most of the rights of a person, but it should never be more important than the woman.

[Capto]

Something other than a person. The fetus should have most of the rights of a person, but it should never be more important than the woman.

So you'd create a special legal classification only for fetuses?

[BrandonA]

No. Think of the traits that you associate with people. Thought, emotion, feeling, etc. The fetus has none of them.

That wasn't really the point I was making, though. My point was that there are only two internally consistent opinions. The first being that abortion is acceptable since the mother rights trump those of the fetus, and the second being that abortion is never acceptable since the fetus is equal to the mother. To make exceptions in cases of rape is internally inconsistent.

That being said, I think the second possibility is inconsistent with the facts. Due to all the traits that the fetus lacks, it cannot be called a person. Therefore the mother, who is undeniably a person, is more important, and her rights prevail.


Latin root for fetus is "Little one". A person would say "She is with child" rather than "She is with fetus"

I see some people accepting a fetus as human or Other than but thinking it is not worth of a life or not "viable" is wrong. So is this how it goes? Do we have the right to murder human beings simply because they are "unable to work successfully?"

I'll end it with:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." That goes for the fetus or what YOU call 'something other than a human'.

[Life's Like This]

I only have one thing to say about this:
If I have the right to kill a fetus, where are the bounds that will stop me from killing from killing any of you? Oh wait a minute, there are none!
Killing a living creature is wrong. A fetus is a living creature. Killing a fetus is wrong.
Pro-Life

[Extreme586]

My best friend had an abortion. She was sort of the star of the basketball team and she got drunk and had sex with a guy who already had another baby on the way elsewhere. While I care about her and am glad she's doing ok now, I don't really agree with how she handled things. It's not like she was raped or forced into having sex with him, she just did it because of the alcohol and whatever was happening at that time that convinced her it was somehow a good idea.

Probably just a heat of the moment thing.

I don't think abortion is right. Although I know we need it. With her financial situation and what not, she wouldn't have been able to give that baby a fulfilled life. Yes I think abortion is wrong but at the same time I'm glad it's in place so that baby's don't have to grow up and live in environments where they aren't well taken care of.

I am totally against it and feel people in the world should just be responsible enough to not make the baby in the first place. But that's in a perfect world which we clearly will never live in.

[Gigablue]

Latin root for fetus is "Little one". A person would say "She is with child" rather than "She is with fetus"

And I should care why? You can't argue for the personhood of a fetus using semantics. Sure people say that, but language is imprecise. What people commonly say is irrelevant.

I see some people accepting a fetus as human or Other than but thinking it is not worth of a life or not "viable" is wrong. So is this how it goes? Do we have the right to murder human beings simply because they are "unable to work successfully?"

You have yet to make a case for a fetus being a human being. It doesn't think, it can't feel, it has no emotions, no desires, nothing. It certainly can become a human, but during gestation, it isn't. If a fetus were a human being, I would agree with you, but unless you can prove that, I'll err on the side of women's rights.

I'll end it with:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." That goes for the fetus or what YOU call 'something other than a human'.

The quote refers to 'all men'. By that I'll assume it means all people. However, that doesn't automatically extend to fetuses. You have to make a case for fetuses being people.

[Jess]

I only have one thing to say about this:
If I have the right to kill a fetus, where are the bounds that will stop me from killing from killing any of you? Oh wait a minute, there are none!
Killing a living creature is wrong. A fetus is a living creature. Killing a fetus is wrong.
Pro-Life

And you have no right to make decisions for me or any other woman, because YOU think it's wrong. Abortion should remain safe and legal; better than nothing. Better than back alley abortions.

[BrandonA]

http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

http://abortionmedicalethics.weebly.com/when-is-a-fetus-considered-alive.html

Fetuses or pre-borns are like humans: eat, move, hear, listen, mature, etc.

[StoppingTime]

http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

http://abortionmedicalethics.weebly.com/when-is-a-fetus-considered-alive.html

Fetuses or pre-borns are like humans: eat, move, hear, listen, mature, etc.

First link is a Weebly (meaning anyone can make the page, so nothing's confirmed) and I can't even click the second one, so..

It's not really a difficult concept to understand that "life" isn't present from the second fertilization occurs. Now different people will define a "human" or "person" (yes, there's a difference), in different ways. However a fetus in the early weeks of pregnancy cannot and does not eat on its own, and it cannot even "move" noticeably until anywhere between the 11-14th week. (http://umm.edu/health/medical/ency/articles/fetal-development)*

I'm guessing you just made up that list, seeing as "mature" is meaningless - of course it can mature, but it's not doing that by choice.

*I'm not saying an abortion is or is not appropriate at this time, simply stating the changes.

[teen.jpg]

A woman should have the choice of whether or not she wants to keep the baby. A father should have a choice whether or not to financially support both the mother and the baby.

That's about as equal as we can get, folks.

[whatsgoinon53]

You've introduced a difficult topic here. There's so many things to process and consider. I think that in the case of rape (especially of a teenager) than it could possibly be okay.

I'm a Christian. In the bible it says that we are born sinners. It even goes so far as to say that we are born children of wrath and followers of Satan. From the time that we are BORN. So if you abort a baby while it is still in the womb, it might me okay but we can't know for sure.

There was doctor who recently got arrested for aborting babies after they had exited the womb. His name escapes me.

I'm not much of a deep thinker but my gut and my belief tell me that it's wrong, in most cases.

[Walter Powers]

You've introduced a difficult topic here. There's so many things to process and consider. I think that in the case of rape (especially of a teenager) than it could possibly be okay.

I'm a Christian. In the bible it says that we are born sinners. It even goes so far as to say that we are born children of wrath and followers of Satan. From the time that we are BORN. So if you abort a baby while it is still in the womb, it might me okay but we can't know for sure.

There was doctor who recently got arrested for aborting babies after they had exited the womb. His name escapes me.

I'm not much of a deep thinker but my gut and my belief tell me that it's wrong, in most cases.

I think that doctor was Kermit Gosnell. Yeah, the left really wanted to seperate themselves from him!

[saea97]

Yeah, the left really wanted to seperate themselves from him!

This is one of the most incendiary and ludicrous things I've ever read. He murdered babies by snipping their spinal cords, which is in no way analogous to abortion. There's no need for "the left" (implying democrats are the only ones to have abortions or who are in favour of abortions...) to "separate" lawful and humane abortion from him, he did that himself.

[Walter Powers]

This is one of the most incendiary and ludicrous things I've ever read. He murdered babies by snipping their spinal cords, which is in no way analogous to abortion. There's no need for "the left" (implying democrats are the only ones to have abortions or who are in favour of abortions...) to "separate" lawful and humane abortion from him, he did that himself.

Dude, you say that about just about everything I think.

The Democrats tried to distance themselves from him, because the reality is that's how many third trimester abortions (which they supposibly think should be legal) go on.

[saea97]

Dude, you say that about just about everything I think.

I disagree. Most of the other posts I've seen you make have an ounce of credibility or a shred of reasoned thought about them. This, on the other hand, was tripe on a new level.

The Democrats tried to distance themselves from him, because the reality is that's how many third trimester abortions (which they supposibly think should be legal) go on.

Have you actually read the details of Gosnell's clinic? Do you think that a legal third-trimester abortion clinic would also feature cupboards full of corpses, beds covered in blood and a waste disposal so clogged with limbs that a baby's arm popped out when it was plunged? Many of the women at the clinic contracted venereal diseases and one (possibly more, I'm not sure) died.

The fact that you're even trying to parallel this man with the left's view of abortion is highly defamatory and shows a deep-seated prejudice. Indeed, one of the major reasons (cited multiple times in this thread) that some people on the left are in favour of legal (and more accessible, since there's technically no time limit in many states) third-trimester abortion is so that monsters like Gosnell can't do their shady business so easily.

[DerBear]

Its the women's choice at the end of the day. I am pro choice, although under certain circumstances I do feel the father should be notified (if possible) before it is carried out.

[kenoloor]

http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

http://abortionmedicalethics.weebly.com/when-is-a-fetus-considered-alive.html

Fetuses or pre-borns are like humans: eat, move, hear, listen, mature, etc.

Let's talk about what a biased source is.

...

Oh wait, no, we shouldn't have to do that, because you should already know what the fuck that is if you're posting here. Stop posting biased sources. Strike one.
Cite reliable sources in the future. It'll help any credibility you hope to obtain. Better luck next time, hunny bunch.

[Southside]

Its the women's choice at the end of the day. I am pro choice, although under certain circumstances I do feel the father should be notified (if possible) before it is carried out.

I agree, everyone is always touting "Mother's choice", what about the dad?
Fuck him right? Come on...

[johnc15]

I think abortion is never ok, because it takes an innocent human life without giving them a choice.
If you really don't want the baby, there's thousands of people looking to adopt

[britishboy]

I think abortion is never ok, because it takes an innocent human life without giving them a choice.
If you really don't want the baby, there's thousands of people looking to adopt

what about if the mother is at risk or victim of rape?

[Gigablue]

I agree, everyone is always touting "Mother's choice", what about the dad?
Fuck him right? Come on...

The father doesn't have to carry around a fetus for nine months. He doesn't have to risk any complications from the pregnancy. The father doesn't have to endure hours of pain giving birth. The fact is that the mother has a much bigger role than the father. Ideally, both the parents would agree, but if they don't, the mother should have the final say.

[Southside]

The father doesn't have to carry around a fetus for nine months. He doesn't have to risk any complications from the pregnancy. The father doesn't have to endure hours of pain giving birth. The fact is that the mother has a much bigger role than the father. Ideally, both the parents would agree, but if they don't, the mother should have the final say.

Father should have the same say as the mother...

[Jess]

I think abortion is never ok, because it takes an innocent human life without giving them a choice.
If you really don't want the baby, there's thousands of people looking to adopt

It's not your decision to make. You can't tell people they can't have an abortion because of what you think.

What if it's a girl who's only 13? It's also possible for a 9 year old girl to get pregnant - from rape. I saw a news article about that. From several years ago but it's still possible.

[Walter Powers]

It's not your decision to make. You can't tell people they can't have an abortion because of what you think.

What if it's a girl who's only 13? It's also possible for a 9 year old girl to get pregnant - from rape. I saw a news article about that. From several years ago but it's still possible.

If she's only 13 she certainly shouldn't be making the decision....it should be her parents or if she has none the state, just as with any decision relating to the health of children.

[Jess]

Okay in that case you're right, wasn't thinking clearly, sorry.

[DerBear]

I agree, everyone is always touting "Mother's choice", what about the dad?
Fuck him right? Come on...

I actually don't agree with the father making the same choice as the mother, he doesn't have to go through the emotional, psychological and physical pain as the mother does. I just feel they should make more of an effort to contact the father and at least let him have his say.

Ultimately it should be the choice of the mother.

[Harley Quinn]

Father should have the same say as the mother...

I didn't realise men get pregnant.

[StoppingTime]

Father should have the same say as the mother...

Oh okay. So the man has to:

Carry the child for nine months
Suffer pre-labor pains
Morning sickness
Constant worry that something may go wrong
Have restrictions on what he can eat, how he can move, sleep, etc.
Birth the child
-Go through all the pain in that
Have the chance of developing Postpartum Depression

Survey says...no! So why should he have the same say? Do tell.

[britishboy]

Oh okay. So the man has to:

Carry the child for nine months
Suffer pre-labor pains
Morning sickness
Constant worry that something may go wrong
Have restrictions on what he can eat, how he can move, sleep, etc.
Birth the child
-Go through all the pain in that
Have the chance of developing Postpartum Depression

Survey says...no! So why should he have the same say? Do tell.

it is the fathers child, and if compensation is agreed in a court of law, I dont think its a problem however the women should still have more rights in my opinion

[Southside]

Oh okay. So the man has to:

Carry the child for nine months
Suffer pre-labor pains
Morning sickness
Constant worry that something may go wrong
Have restrictions on what he can eat, how he can move, sleep, etc.
Birth the child
-Go through all the pain in that
Have the chance of developing Postpartum Depression

Survey says...no! So why should he have the same say? Do tell.

So women have children by themselves? Im not saying the man should make the whole decesion, but he should have a say too.

[Jess]

So women have children by themselves? Im not saying the man should make the whole decesion, but he should have a say too.

I agree he should have a say - unless he abandoned the mother or is a rapist - but he should respect the decision in the end

[Southside]

I agree he should have a say - unless he abandoned the mother or is a rapist - but he should respect the decision in the end

Which is basically what I am saying, I dont know why everyone is making it seem like I'm saying the man should make the whole decision, he should have a bit of say.

[Gigablue]

So women have children by themselves? Im not saying the man should make the whole decesion, but he should have a say too.

Suppose the mother and father disagree. Who's opinion takes precedence?

[Southside]

Suppose the mother and father disagree. Who's opinion takes precedence?

Mothers of course, still, women dont have babies by themselves, therefore the father deserves a say.

[Jean Poutine]

Fathers already have a right to decide, it's called consultation and consensus, which should happen in any stable and mentally sound couple. The fact that the final say resides with the woman as it should does not mean fathers have no role in deciding.

Suppose you give the father the choice. What happens if the couple splits up, the father wants it and the mother doesn't? Are we going to have custody battles for fetuses now, keeping in mind the legal system is overburdened as it is and the case has to be solved before the child's birth, or before the stage of pregnancy where abortion becomes inadvisable/illegal? What about custody battles for syphilis while we're at it?

[Micci]

Abortions are desired for lots of reasons, there are the usual rape/incest, it could hurt the mother and so on. But there are some girls who get pregnant because of their own stupidity and have abortions.

Would it be possible to give the victim mothers a choice but bar the stupid mothers from killing an innocent?

For the mothers vs. fathers debate, what if the father wanted to, and had the resources to raise the child alone, but the mother just didn't want to give birth? Is it still the mother's final choice?

[midnight424]

In my honest opinion i dont think it should be legal because really if it is killing the mother you can try to help it survive later in the pregnancy even though it would be very unlikely it would survive early in the pregnancy i believe in Pro-life unless it will kill both mother and baby.

[britishboy]

In my honest opinion i dont think it should be legal because really if it is killing the mother you can try to help it survive later in the pregnancy even though it would be very unlikely it would survive early in the pregnancy i believe in Pro-life unless it will kill both mother and baby.

you have the right to choose, how would you like it if you was raped tomorrow and have to give birth in 9 months with no choice?

[hyperkid99]

I'm personally against it

[midnight424]

you have the right to choose, how would you like it if you was raped tomorrow and have to give birth in 9 months with no choice?

I would still not want an abortion because it is relying on something yes but it still is living by the time you know about it.

[britishboy]

I would still not want an abortion because it is relying on something yes but it still is living by the time you know about it.

its a cluster of cells

[Walter Powers]

its a cluster of cells

You're a cluster of cells!

[Jess]

I would still not want an abortion because it is relying on something yes but it still is living by the time you know about it.

That is your decision - to keep the baby. However, not every girl or woman would want to keep the baby - I wouldn't - and therefore it should be their right to make that decision ON THEIR OWN, and not have other people make it for them, against abortion or not (they shouldn't be forced to have the baby if they don't want it. They shouldn't be forced to have an abortion if they want to keep it).

You're a cluster of cells!

:rolleyes:

[midnight424]

its a cluster of cells

even though it is just a cluster of cells to you but to the mother it is a baby even if they dont realize it right away.

[irishguy123]

i am against abortion on demand but i believe in certain circumstances abortion is necessary(such as when the life of the mother is in danger.)