Religion

[tovaris]

Why do people believe that there are man in the sky frowing down lighttning?
A bit of an odd question but stil why do people beliewe all these strange ideas?

And also what are your thaughts on religious institutions?

What do you think about the new religions like the happy-happy, Churche of the fliing spagety monster, scieltalists,...

[Origami]

That's not an easy question to answer because it varies from person to person. And as far as magical men throwing lightning down from the sky, I'm pretty sure those religions have dwindled in popularity. Those being the Greek, Roman, and Norse gods.

To some people what you find to be a "strange" idea isn't all that strange to them. Personally, I find homosexuality to be "strange." It doesn't make sense to me and never will. All that means is that the LGBT community are a group of people with differing views than me. That's all it means. Nothing less, nothing more.

As far as religious institutions, I've answered this in the other thread. I do not attend institutions because I believe the majority are corrupt. Even my church was more of a hate group using the Bible as a weapon than anything else. But again, that's because of a leader gone astray, not the people.

[tovaris]

I can feel glass, I can smash glass. I can eat glass, I can make glass. I can heat glass. I can't do any of them for god, your only evidence for god is that you can sense him.

Do you have any evidence that this god does exist?
Interestng thaughts, care to expand them?

[Harry Smith]

Because they're gulliable

[LouBerry]

Well for me, God, Jesus, church, I grew up with that. It's something I understand, and it's a part of me. But, it's much more then just something that I was brainwashed into believing. I've had my doubts, I mean, who hasn't? Some of our beliefs do seem quite strange. But during those times, when I would doubt, I felt empty. Hopeless. I was afraid of the future, or dying. It was bleak. But now, I'm happy. I'll live my life without fear of the future, because I know that this life isn't the end. I mean, why the Hell wouldn't I want to believe?

Also, my mother died when I was still a youngster, and I believe with all my heart that she's waiting on me up in Heaven, and there is not a word you can say that will make me believe otherwise.

And it's cruel of you to pick at and make fun of me, or my relationship with my Father, because I mean, what is this site for? Recover, Learn, Grow Together? My "religion" is what kept me from committing suicide. It's part of who I am.

[Origami]

Because they're gulliable

As is most of humankind. We all are to an extent. I doubt gullibility has much to do with it.

[Harry Smith]

As is most of humankind. We all are to an extent. I doubt gullibility has much to do with it.

If it's not gullibility then it's down to fear, fear of the unknown.

[LouBerry]

If it's not gullibility then it's down to fear, fear of the unknown.

And? If we're happy with our God and our future, why do you care?

Can't you be happy not believing in God, and I be happy because I do believe is God, and we exist harmoniously because it's fucking okay to disagree?

[tovaris]

And? If we're happy with our God and our future, why do you care?

Can't you be happy not believing in God, and I be happy because I do believe is God, and we exist harmoniously because it's fucking okay to disagree?

I like that you dont blindly agre with what your pretcher sais. At lest you seem to believe at lest bartly on your own (bot i cant rile out nurture)
Wery interesting

[Origami]

If it's not gullibility then it's down to fear, fear of the unknown.

Fear of the unknown is completely rational. Tons of people, religious and not are afraid of the unknown. Not everyone actively wants to know the answers to the universe and the ultimate truth of what happens in death. Really.

[tovaris]

Fear of the unknown is completely rational. Tons of people, religious and not are afraid of the unknown. Not everyone actively wants to know the answers to the universe and the ultimate truth of what happens in death. Really.

But why in this day and age make up a story about a man in the sky or a spagety monster for that mather?

[Stronk Serb]

I am atheist I think. I believe that we, as humankind can achieve everything without divine help. I do not believe in any divine entities. While I was Christian, I realised that all the time the Bible has been used as a weapon, that's when I became atheist. It took me a long time to figure that out, now I am free from religious boundaries and way more tolerant to other religions since I am no longer taught to hate by my former church.

[LouBerry]

I like that you dont blindly agre with what your pretcher sais. At lest you seem to believe at lest bartly on your own (bot i cant rile out nurture)
Wery interesting

I am a human being and capable of my own thoughts and beliefs. My preacher, is just a man, he can make mistakes.

And exactly do you mean by, can't rule out nature? Because, can you prove, absolutely, without a doubt that there is no possible way there could be a God?

Sure, there is more visual, and I guess Chemical or whatever evidence supporting the no God theory, but there really is only one way to find out for sure, right?

[tovaris]

I am a human being and capable of my own thoughts and beliefs. My preacher, is just a man, he can make mistakes.

And exactly do you mean by, can't rule out nature? Because, can you prove, absolutely, without a doubt that there is no possible way there could be a God?

Sure, there is more visual, and I guess Chemical or whatever evidence supporting the no God theory, but there really is only one way to find out for sure, right?

Thats nurture, how you vere raised

[Origami]

But why in this day and age make up a story about a man in the sky or a spagety monster for that mather?

Most religions weren't made "in this day and age."

For you latter point, I won't debate Pastafarians. I don't know their religion nor do I practice it.

[LouBerry]

Thats nurture, how you vere raised

That...makes no sense. But if you mean that I'm not credible because I was raised in a Christian home, what about the MILLIONS of Christians that were not raised in Christian homes, and still came to know God?

[Harry Smith]

And? If we're happy with our God and our future, why do you care?

Can't you be happy not believing in God, and I be happy because I do believe is God, and we exist harmoniously because it's fucking okay to disagree?

Its when people use this deity to justify stopping my basic civil rights

[LouBerry]

Its when people use this deity to justify stopping my basic civil rights

Well, what the Hell, dude?

If you knew me, you'd know this:

I am pro-rights. ALL OF THEM.

I think people who get abortions are murders, but I believe abortion should be legal.

I think that homosexuality is a sin, but I think that they have the right to get married if they want to.

So, I'm not that bad of a guy am I? I'll stick up for your damn rights, even if I don't believe in what you're doing.

[Origami]

Its when people use this deity to justify stopping my basic civil rights

Some people do. Some don't.

I use my religion simply to say I don't have to support the LGBT community. But when asked I always say, yes, they deserve equal rights. It's stupid people that do it. I mean really, even non-religious people make up excuses to not support the LGBT community.

[Gigablue]

Well for me, God, Jesus, church, I grew up with that. It's something I understand, and it's a part of me. But, it's much more then just something that I was brainwashed into believing. I've had my doubts, I mean, who hasn't? Some of our beliefs do seem quite strange. But during those times, when I would doubt, I felt empty. Hopeless. I was afraid of the future, or dying. It was bleak. But now, I'm happy. I'll live my life without fear of the future, because I know that this life isn't the end. I mean, why the Hell wouldn't I want to believe?

I understand your reasons for believing, but what makes you happy or unhappy and what is true isn't always the same thing. I think it would be great if there were some sort to eternal justice, some way to see lived ones again. I don't really like the idea of dying and that being it.

That being said, I can't believe in any higher power due to the complete lack of evidence. I think it would be nice, but I value the truth, and so far I am unconvinced. If anyone has good quality evidence, I would gladly chance my mind, but until then, I don't believe in any sort of god.

And it's cruel of you to pick at and make fun of me, or my relationship with my Father, because I mean, what is this site for? Recover, Learn, Grow Together? My "religion" is what kept me from committing suicide. It's part of who I am.

I agree that making fun of people is mean, and I don't condone it, but making fun of beliefs is very different. If I think a belief is stupid, I think I should be able to criticize it appropriately.

As for the purpose of the site, seeing as this is a debate section, I think debate is appropriate, as long as it doesn't cross over into cruelty.

And? If we're happy with our God and our future, why do you care?

Can't you be happy not believing in God, and I be happy because I do believe is God, and we exist harmoniously because it's fucking okay to disagree?

I care about the truth, and I hope as many people as possible can apply proper logic in order to come to the best possible understanding of the world we live in. The reason I disagree with you is that I think your interpretation of the facts is incorrect.

That being said, your being religious really has no bearing on my life. Believe whatever you want, I really don't care. As long as you don't use it to oppress others. I think you're wrong, but really, in my opinion, there are way bigger problems in the world for me to care about what you believe.

Because, can you prove, absolutely, without a doubt that there is no possible way there could be a God?

Sure, there is more visual, and I guess Chemical or whatever evidence supporting the no God theory, but there really is only one way to find out for sure, right?

Very few atheists claim that there is no possible way there could be a god. That's an impossible position to take, seeing as proving that something doesn't exist is very hard to do.

That being said, I don't believe in a god. Positing one provides no predictive power into natural phenomena, and is just unnecessary. Shortly put, explaining the world using a god is just more convoluted and gets us nowhere.

That...makes no sense. But if you mean that I'm not credible because I was raised in a Christian home, what about the MILLIONS of Christians that were not raised in Christian homes, and still came to know God?

Have you ever wondered why one of the biggest factors in determining someone's religion is the religion of their parents? If you're raised in a Christian family, you will likely be Christian. If you're raised in a Muslim family, you will likely be Muslim, etc. if there were some sort of deity, shouldn't it be possible to discover them independently. The fact the most people take on the religion of their parents seems to indicate a lack of critical thinking.

[saea97]

And exactly do you mean by, can't rule out nature? Because, can you prove, absolutely, without a doubt that there is no possible way there could be a God?


This is not how a burden of proof works.


[...] what about the MILLIONS of Christians that were not raised in Christian homes, and still came to know God?

How can you use the word "know" here? To know something it has to be demonstrably true. By your own admission, the God hypothesis isn't.

[Origami]

How can you use the word "know" here? To know something it has to be demonstrably true. By your own admission, the God hypothesis isn't.

Coming to "know" God is a general term used for those who have come from worldy lives and found salvation through Christ. It is not used in the same sense as knowing God as I know my best friend. That is how the word know is used there.

[Camazotz]

My opinion on the matter is nearly identical to Gigablue, so see his post for my beliefs.

To add to the discussion, I will just state that Pastafarianism (Flying Spaghetti Monster) is not a real religion; it's a satire on how religion interferes with the American public education system. To put it simply, the state of Kansas wanted their public education system to teach Creationism alongside the Theory of Evolution. People who thought it was stupid (that science classes should teach religious beliefs against scientific research) invented "Pastafarianism" to show that just because you believe something and there are followers, does not make it scientifically credible, and thus should not be taught in public schools.

[saea97]

Coming to "know" God is a general term used for those who have come from worldy lives and found salvation through Christ. It is not used in the same sense as knowing God as I know my best friend. That is how the word know is used there.

I know that's how you view it, but how do you know you've found salvation through Christ and aren't, in fact, just praying to nothing? And how do you know that following the teachings of Christ leads to salvation? And is there any evidence that "salvation" exists?

It seems to me that "finding salvation through Christ" equates to following the teachings of the Bible on blind faith.

[Origami]

I know that's how you view it, but how do you know you've found salvation through Christ and aren't, in fact, just praying to nothing? And how do you know that following the teachings of Christ leads to salvation? And is there any evidence that "salvation" exists?

It seems to me that "finding salvation through Christ" equates to following the teachings of the Bible on blind faith.

The problem with almost every debate on religion is that each side likes to throw up the "how do you know" and "how do you not know" arguments. There is as much evidence to prove God's existence as there is to disprove it. It's pointless way to go about these debates and gets no one anywhere. If religious people would quit worrying about converting everyone and non-religious folk would quit trying to scream about "blind faith" then we'd honestly all be a lot happier.

Even if it is all non-existent, some people would prefer to find solace in something.

[LouBerry]

I understand your reasons for believing, but what makes you happy or unhappy and what is true isn't always the same thing. I think it would be great if there were some sort to eternal justice, some way to see lived ones again. I don't really like the idea of dying and that being it.


Exactly, so what's your point? So what if it isn't true. If it is I'll be happy, if it isn't I had a great life.

That being said, I can't believe in any higher power due to the complete lack of evidence. I think it would be nice, but I value the truth, and so far I am unconvinced. If anyone has good quality evidence, I would gladly chance my mind, but until then, I don't believe in any sort of god.

Well, the thing is, it takes Faith. You to open up your heart to God like he was a lover. Sure, some people will say that it isn't real, that you're imagining it, but it doesn't matter, 'cause you know. You can't....make up the peace you feel. Sorry.


I agree that making fun of people is mean, and I don't condone it, but making fun of beliefs is very different. If I think a belief is stupid, I think I should be able to criticize it appropriately.

As for the purpose of the site, seeing as this is a debate section, I think debate is appropriate, as long as it doesn't cross over into cruelty.



I care about the truth, and I hope as many people as possible can apply proper logic in order to come to the best possible understanding of the world we live in. The reason I disagree with you is that I think your interpretation of the facts is incorrect.


Okay, so you think that saying that my GOD, my FATHER, something that means more to me than anything, is stupid and making fun of it, is okay. Even though it's like you're shooting me in the face? That's great.

And what is logic? And fact? Unexplainable things happen! Whether by God or Nature or some unseen force, you can't explain everything, and why couldn't there be a God? Why couldn't an unseen deity have created laws of science, and nature. All that. Why is it that having a unique way of seeing the world okay, unless your a Christian. I don't get it.

That being said, your being religious really has no bearing on my life. Believe whatever you want, I really don't care. As long as you don't use it to oppress others. I think you're wrong, but really, in my opinion, there are way bigger problems in the world for me to care about what you believe.

Great. Is that not what I've been preachin'. I mean, I think that you're completely ignorant, but I respect that you can't believe what I do, and that's okay. I could still like you just as much.


Very few atheists claim that there is no possible way there could be a god. That's an impossible position to take, seeing as proving that something doesn't exist is very hard to do.

That being said, I don't believe in a god. Positing one provides no predictive power into natural phenomena, and is just unnecessary. Shortly put, explaining the world using a god is just more convoluted and gets us nowhere..

Well, I don't agree. Again, you know, hope, happiness, people not committing suicide, big deal, but hey, maybe you're right.

Have you ever wondered why one of the biggest factors in determining someone's religion is the religion of their parents? If you're raised in a Christian family, you will likely be Christian. If you're raised in a Muslim family, you will likely be Muslim, etc. if there were some sort of deity, shouldn't it be possible to discover them independently. The fact the most people take on the religion of their parents seems to indicate a lack of critical thinking.

Of course I have. But, you're over looking the fact that there are millions of Christians, all over the world who grew up as atheists or Muslims, Buddhists, you name it.

And do I not seem like an individual that can think for herself? Make my own decisions? Yes, my mother and father were/are both Christians, but my Dad has never really shared his faith with me, and my mom died when I was six. I made my choice because it was something real. Something that I loved, that I understood. I'm not ignorant. I know theories and laws and why people say there isn't a God. It's a convincing argument. But, it's a lost cause.

Thank you for having a little debate with me. Exciting. (:

[saea97]

The problem with almost every debate on religion is that each side likes to throw up the "how do you know" and "how do you not know" arguments. There is as much evidence to prove God's existence as there is to disprove it.

While this statement is negotiably true, it does not mean that there's a 50/50 shot of either side being correct. Given all that's asserted about God, there should be at least some evidence, however on the other side it's nigh impossible to prove a negative. So the theist's lack of evidence is a lot more telling than the atheist's.

It's pointless way to go about these debates and gets no one anywhere. If religious people would quit worrying about converting everyone and non-religious folk would quit trying to scream about "blind faith" then we'd honestly all be a lot happier.

I partly agree again in a sense that the chances of anyone changing their mind from an internet debate is slim. However, I view religion as corrosive to society and I am grateful for my right to voice this opinion just as I am grateful for the right you and others have to defend your faith. I'm not unhappy having this debate, and I hope you're not so easily offended either.

Even if it is all non-existent, some people would prefer to find solace in something.

If people willingly delude themselves, they are beyond reason. (which is why surely there must be evidence somewhere, or are the majority of the world's people willingly deluding themselves? I'm yet to see it though.) I understand that religion is comforting, but the Universe doesn't owe people any solace. Every day I'm grateful that I exist against the incredible odds that I shouldn't. That is more than enough solace for me. There's far less to fear from death with an atheistic worldview than a theistic one.

[Origami]

While this statement is negotiably true, it does not mean that there's a 50/50 shot of either side being correct. Given all that's asserted about God, there should be at least some evidence, however on the other side it's nigh impossible to prove a negative. So the theist's lack of evidence is a lot more telling than the atheist's.

The way I see it, and they I believe most should, is simply as was stated earlier in this thread. Someone said if you prove God, then they'll believe. If someone legitimately disproves God, I'll stop believing. But I do believe it is a 50/50 toss-up.

The Father; The Bible does not have God showing himself, physically, except to Adam and Eve. Others saw him through dreams and other means. So proving something that has only physically walked the Earth once is next to impossible to do so. Period.

The Son; Well, Jesus was a real man. Some believe him to be the son of God, others believe him to be a profit. This would boil down to, if religion is correct, what he actually was. Nothing more. So if Jesus is the Son of God (and God through the trinity) then religion is already actually proven and the book of Revelations will come to pass. It's a waiting game.

That's just how I see it.

I partly agree again in a sense that the chances of anyone changing their mind from an internet debate is slim. However, I view religion as corrosive to society and I am grateful for my right to voice this opinion just as I am grateful for the right you and others have to defend your faith. I'm not unhappy having this debate, and I hope you're not so easily offended either.

It depends. It's true that religion has some views that people believe to be outdated at best. But I don't think it is necessarily corrosive unless used poorly. Religion, at it's core, is not a bad thing. The people who practice these faiths are not always perfect role models to the religion either. For example, the only reason I'm open minded to things is because I see the Bible as a book of teachings, fundamentally on love. Yes, I do acknowledge the bloody history in the Bible as well though. For some reason people like to, for example, use the Bible and scream God hates gays. Well, yes he does. But you're suppose to love your neighbor. Just not give into worldly ways. Not hate them. Obviously some concepts like stoning, slavery, and such have all become outdated.

I see it as people who corrode society using religion.

If people willingly delude themselves, they are beyond reason. (which is why surely there must be evidence somewhere, or are the majority of the world's people willingly deluding themselves? I'm yet to see it though.) I understand that religion is comforting, but the Universe doesn't owe people any solace. Every day I'm grateful that I exist against the incredible odds that I shouldn't. That is more than enough solace for me. There's far less to fear from death with an atheistic worldview than a theistic one.

For some people it just isn't that simple. If God is disproved I won't be budged. I'll go about my life as I would if God were real. Other people need some form of solace to get by due to situations they may currently be in.

And really? I'd imagine fearing death more knowing nothing comes after. At least through religion you have the promise of eternal life.

[LouBerry]

This is not how a burden of proof works.



How can you use the word "know" here? To know something it has to be demonstrably true. By your own admission, the God hypothesis isn't.

It's has been demonstrated to me, and it has been for many people. I do know God, he's my best friend. I talk to him all the time. Like, five seconds ago, I told him a joke. It is normal, no.

And please do not criticize me on this, because telling me that God doesn't speak to me and He's just an imaginary thing in my mind is literally like telling me and my best friend, Cody or my Boyfriend are just made up concepts.

[Origami]

It's has been demonstrated to me, and it has been for many people. I do know God, he's my best friend. I talk to him all the time. Like, five seconds ago, I told him a joke. It is normal, no.

And please do not criticize me on this, because telling me that God doesn't speak to me and He's just an imaginary thing in my mind is literally like telling me and my best friend, Cody or my Boyfriend are just made up concepts.

You tell jokes to God? That's interesting.

[LouBerry]

You tell jokes to God? That's interesting.

We have a complicated relationship, lol.

He really is my best friend. I mean, I don't have to hide things, and I can tell him anything. And again this is something I am not going to elaborate on, because you can't really understand it unless you do have a relationship with Him, but God has a kick-ass sense of humor. (: So, yeah, I tell him jokes sometimes.

I call him my Father for a reason, my dad is great, he loves me, but he wasn't there when I was a kid and he doesn't really know how to be a dad. Especially to a girl. So God really always has been my Father. It's...difficult to explain.

[Origami]

We have a complicated relationship, lol.

He really is my best friend. I mean, I don't have to hide things, and I can tell him anything. And again this is something I am not going to elaborate on, because you can't really understand it unless you do have a relationship with Him, but God has a kick-ass sense of humor. (: So, yeah, I tell him jokes sometimes.

I call him my Father for a reason, my dad is great, he loves me, but he wasn't there when I was a kid and he doesn't really know how to be a dad. Especially to a girl. So God really always has been my Father. It's...difficult to explain.

My relationship with God isn't perfect. But I've never known of anyone to tell jokes to God.

[LouBerry]

My relationship with God isn't perfect. But I've never known of anyone to tell jokes to God.

Well, my relationship is no where near perfect, but I guess I just see it a little differently.

[Harry Smith]

Well, what the Hell, dude?

If you knew me, you'd know this:

I am pro-rights. ALL OF THEM.

I think people who get abortions are murders, but I believe abortion should be legal.

I think that homosexuality is a sin, but I think that they have the right to get married if they want to.

So, I'm not that bad of a guy am I? I'll stick up for your damn rights, even if I don't believe in what you're doing.

I appreciate that very much and I know it must be hard to comprise your belief, but you've got the head of every Major religion in my country opposing gay marriage. I'm fine for you to base your own life on some unseen man in the sky but it's when the COFE and the Catholic church try and limit what I can do.

I also find it funny that you say it's a sin, so basically you think that I'm going be sent to an underground chamber ruled by an evil overlord because I'm gay, and a book written over 2000 years told you to believe this

[saea97]

For some people it just isn't that simple. If God is disproved I won't be budged. I'll go about my life as I would if God were real. Other people need some form of solace to get by due to situations they may currently be in.

And really? I'd imagine fearing death more knowing nothing comes after. At least through religion you have the promise of eternal life.

We've sort of stalemated on the other points but this interests me. The first paragraph shows that by your own admission you don't need God to be good. Neither do I, nor does anybody else. So what would be the problem with discarding God given the evidence? I feel like the evidence on the side of the atheist gets underappreciated in these debates: All the scientific factors, from the fossil record and the brutal, unforgiving nature of evolution to the overwhelming inhospitability towards life of the vast majority of celestial bodies, to the great size of the Universe - hell, even heliocentrism - are factors that show that this Universe certainly wasn't "built" with human life - or life at all - in mind.

And actually, I think a great number of the religious live in absolute terror of Hell. It's outright cruel to teach children that Hell exists and that they will go there if they sin against God, and the descriptions of Hell in the Bible are no less vivid than frequent. On an atheistic viewpoint, death is simply ceasing to exist. And again, the theist's lack of evidence points to this being true.

telling me that God doesn't speak to me and He's just an imaginary thing in my mind is literally like telling me and my best friend, Cody or my Boyfriend are just made up concepts.

No it's not; presumably you could provide evidence that Cody and your boyfriend exist, so I wouldn't be able to make that assertion. I get that you take this very personally, but that doesn't make your God beyond question.

[tovaris]

My opinion on the matter is nearly identical to Gigablue, so see his post for my beliefs.

To add to the discussion, I will just state that Pastafarianism (Flying Spaghetti Monster) is not a real religion; it's a satire on how religion interferes with the American public education system. To put it simply, the state of Kansas wanted their public education system to teach Creationism alongside the Theory of Evolution. People who thought it was stupid (that science classes should teach religious beliefs against scientific research) invented "Pastafarianism" to show that just because you believe something and there are followers, does not make it scientifically credible, and thus should not be taught in public schools.

Yes but they can stil wear a stray on their drivers licence so said the courts.

The problem with almost every debate on religion is that each side likes to throw up the "how do you know" and "how do you not know" arguments. There is as much evidence to prove God's existence as there is to disprove it. It's pointless way to go about these debates and gets no one anywhere. If religious people would quit worrying about converting everyone and non-religious folk would quit trying to scream about "blind faith" then we'd honestly all be a lot happier.

Even if it is all non-existent, some people would prefer to find solace in something.

Just to ad modern science is not jet at a stage where we can prove or disprove existance of some supernational being, althow the evidance gaderd till now and our understandind of the worlds macanics is pointing us to a conslusion.

[Gigablue]

The problem with almost every debate on religion is that each side likes to throw up the "how do you know" and "how do you not know" arguments. There is as much evidence to prove God's existence as there is to disprove it. It's pointless way to go about these debates and gets no one anywhere. If religious people would quit worrying about converting everyone and non-religious folk would quit trying to scream about "blind faith" then we'd honestly all be a lot happier.

Your mistake is to treat the two positions as though they are making claims about existence. The theist claim has the burden of proof, since they are actively making a claim, while the atheist is just rejecting that claim.

I don't claim that there is no god, very few atheists actually make that claim. If I were to claim that, I would have the burden of proof. However, if I say that I reject the claim that there is a god due to insufficient evidence, the one making the claim has to provide evidence to support it.

Even if it is all non-existent, some people would prefer to find solace in something.

Exactly, so what's your point? So what if it isn't true. If it is I'll be happy, if it isn't I had a great life.

Good for you. I would rather know the truth than find happiness in a lie. If you don't care about what's true, fine by me. I'm just saying that I do.

Well, the thing is, it takes Faith. You to open up your heart to God like he was a lover. Sure, some people will say that it isn't real, that you're imagining it, but it doesn't matter, 'cause you know. You can't....make up the peace you feel. Sorry.

I don't think faith is a valid way of knowing things. How does believing things without proof get you anywhere? How can you tell fact from fiction? The only way to reliably come to the truth is through science.

Okay, so you think that saying that my GOD, my FATHER, something that means more to me than anything, is stupid and making fun of it, is okay. Even though it's like you're shooting me in the face? That's great.

Yes. I should be able to make fun of religion. It's up to you whether you take offence. If someone chooses to make fun of atheism, I don't really care. I wouldn't be offended. You have the choice whether or not to be offended.

And what is logic? And fact?

Logic, and more specifically science, is the process of gathering data about the world using a rigorous, fair, consistent methodology, then analyzing it using proven statistics and coming to the conclusion that is best supported by the data. If you disagree with science, what part do you disagree with? Do you think we don't need to be consistent and fair? Do you think we don't need to analyze data properly? I don't see how you can disagree with science, or say it isn't the way to find out truth about the world.

Unexplainable things happen! Whether by God or Nature or some unseen force, you can't explain everything, and why couldn't there be a God?

Many thing have happened that we currently can't explain, but if history is any guide, we will figure them out soon. As science progresses, we learn more and more about the world. There is no reason that that can't continue.

Even if there were something that we couldn't explain, you can't just way that god did it. You need to prove using evidence that it was a god.

Why couldn't an unseen deity have created laws of science, and nature. All that.

One could have, but it could also easily be self emergent. Seeing as there is no evidence for a god, I don't feel the need to use one to explain phenomena that could have taken place without one.

Why is it that having a unique way of seeing the world okay, unless your a Christian. I don't get it.

Having your own opinions is a good thing. Having your own facts is not. If there is some mapper of opinion, I value diversity. However, for anything with an objective answer, such as if there is a god, some people are right, and some are wrong. I want to get to the bottom of it, not just say that everyone is right.

Great. Is that not what I've been preachin'. I mean, I think that you're completely ignorant, but I respect that you can't believe what I do, and that's okay. I could still like you just as much.

That's good. In that case, I don't really have a problem with you. I think you're wrong, but I can respect you. My problem lies with the people who use their religion to oppress others.

Well, I don't agree. Again, you know, hope, happiness, people not committing suicide, big deal, but hey, maybe you're right.

I agree that religion can give people happiness, but you don't need it to be happy. I am perfectly happy without religion.

Also, religion can help people is desperate situations, such as helping people not commit suicide, but again, it isn't necessary. About a year or two ago, I was severely depressed, to the point of suicide. Do you know what saved me. Science, in the form of modern medicine. If religion helped you, great. But I was helped by science.

Of course I have. But, you're over looking the fact that there are millions of Christians, all over the world who grew up as atheists or Muslims, Buddhists, you name it.

Yes, people can be convinced by religions that they weren't raised in, but its not that common, for every Christian who grew up an atheist, there are a hundred Christians who grew up Christian.

And do I not seem like an individual that can think for herself? Make my own decisions? Yes, my mother and father were/are both Christians, but my Dad has never really shared his faith with me, and my mom died when I was six. I made my choice because it was something real. Something that I loved, that I understood. I'm not ignorant. I know theories and laws and why people say there isn't a God. It's a convincing argument. But, it's a lost cause.

If you acknowledge it's a convincing argument, why aren't you convinced? I trust the process of science, since it has worked in the past, and I see no reason it can't continue to work.

I suppose I'm just not swayed by feelings to the same extent. There have been plenty of times where I was sure something was right, but I don't like to just stop there. If something is true, you can find evidence to support it, if not, it may not be true. In my opinion, if you have a good reason to believe in a god, that reason should be explainable to others, and others should be convinced, otherwise I don't think it's a very good reason.

[LouBerry]

If you acknowledge it's a convincing argument, why aren't you convinced? .

I'm not going to comment on anything else except this.

I'm not convinced because I know better. You believe in coincidence, right? I don't. I believe in fate. That everything happens for a reason.

Today is Fathers Day in the U.S. so I was out with my Daddy going through antique stores that he likes and all that, and I was really down. I'm really missing my papa, who died a few years ago. Well, we're in the little store, and my dad walks up to me with a yearbook. From the school my grandparents went to. Strange since they lived in Florida, no where near me. It was my papa's Senior year, and my granny's Freshman year. How odd to find something like that, on a day that I was missing him so badly.

Or the day of my Mommas funeral. I had a dream the night before about her going to Heaven and telling me she loved me and that she was so happy and all that jazz, and she this huge butterfly landed on her hand and she was giggling and smiling about it. So anyway, we're done with her funeral and at the graveyard and I'm about to go, and this little girl walks up to me, (one of my Mommas students from school) and she had drawn me a picture. Of a butterfly. A very pretty butterfly, very much like the one from my dream.

So, sure one could say it's just coincidence or mind tricks, but I know that it's not.

[Harry Smith]

I'm not going to comment on anything else except this.

I'm not convinced because I know better. You believe in coincidence, right? I don't. I believe in fate. That everything happens for a reason.

Today is Fathers Day in the U.S. so I was out with my Daddy going through antique stores that he likes and all that, and I was really down. I'm really missing my papa, who died a few years ago. Well, we're in the little store, and my dad walks up to me with a yearbook. From the school my grandparents went to. Strange since they lived in Florida, no where near me. It was my papa's Senior year, and my granny's Freshman year. How odd to find something like that, on a day that I was missing him so badly.

Or the day of my Mommas funeral. I had a dream the night before about her going to Heaven and telling me she loved me and that she was so happy and all that jazz, and she this huge butterfly landed on her hand and she was giggling and smiling about it. So anyway, we're done with her funeral and at the graveyard and I'm about to go, and this little girl walks up to me, (one of my Mommas students from school) and she had drawn me a picture. Of a butterfly. A very pretty butterfly, very much like the one from my dream.

So, sure one could say it's just coincidence or mind tricks, but I know that it's not.

I'm sorry to tell you this is just you putting two and two together, it's your mind trying to give your reassurance. If there is some form of life form that is higher than us with great power he wouldn't be interested in each individual struggle. We're just Carbon in the universe

[LouBerry]

No, I'm not. I think it's sad that there are people like you out there that can't have the peace I have.






Oh, and Harry, I do NOT think that. I think that if you don't believe in God, sure, you're going to go to Hell , and that sucks. But I do not think that homosexuals or adulterers or thieves or anyone else is going to Hell because of what they do.

[saea97]

Oh, and Harry, I do NOT think that. I think that if you don't believe in God, sure, you're going to go to Hell , and that sucks. But I do not think that homosexuals or adulterers or thieves or anyone else is going to Hell because of what they do.

So according to what you just said, as long as a person believes in God, they're fine? An atheist who lives a moral life is doomed by their atheism, but an adulterer or thief who does believe in God is going to Heaven?

I think it's an odd opinion to have, and probably not one that your fellow Christians will have, but if this is the case, your God is petty, vindictive and morally corrupt, and I am all the more glad that there is no evidence of his existence.

[crepesuzette]

Its when people use this deity to justify stopping my basic civil rights

You do realize that being gay and religious are not mutually exclusive right? And from what I can gather, you probably have had a lot of bad experiences with religious people. Are you from the midwest?

From where I live, people could care less.

So according to what you just said, as long as a person believes in God, they're fine? An atheist who lives a moral life is doomed by their atheism, but an adulterer or thief who does believe in God is going to Heaven?

I think it's an odd opinion to have, and probably not one that your fellow Christians will have, but if this is the case, your God is petty, vindictive and morally corrupt, and I am all the more glad that there is no evidence of his existence.

why all of a sudden are people getting all upset about religion? Gosh, did you guys grow up with this kind of hateful religion?

Merged Double Post. -StoppingTime

[Harry Smith]

You do realize that being gay and religious are not mutually exclusive right? And from what I can gather, you probably have had a lot of bad experiences with religious people. Are you from the midwest?

From where I live, people could care less.

I'm not a Yank, I'm British. Every major church here opposes gay marriage on the basis that the man in the sky wrote in a book that they shouldn't do it

[crepesuzette]

I'm not a Yank, I'm British. Every major church here opposes gay marriage on the basis that the man in the sky wrote in a book that they shouldn't do it

Well I think that the reason they oppose it is because they think that all gay men are involved in anal sex, which of course can't be true. First of all, there's no such thing as "All this...does that or all that is..." You get my point, don't you?

[Harry Smith]

Well I think that the reason they oppose it is because they think that all gay men are involved in anal sex, which of course can't be true. First of all, there's no such thing as "All this...does that or all that is..." You get my point, don't you?

They oppose it because they want to hold onto power, simple as that. If it was to do with anal sex they would allow lesbian weddings would they not?

[Gigablue]

why all of a sudden are people getting all upset about religion? Gosh, did you guys grow up with this kind of hateful religion?

I'm opposed to religion because I think it's illogical, not because of how I was raised.

[Jess]

No, I'm not. I think it's sad that there are people like you out there that can't have the peace I have.






Oh, and Harry, I do NOT think that. I think that if you don't believe in God, sure, you're going to go to Hell , and that sucks. But I do not think that homosexuals or adulterers or thieves or anyone else is going to Hell because of what they do.

Wait what? You're saying homosexuals and adulterers and thieves are not going to hell...but an atheist will because s/he doesn't believe in God.....even if s/he is a good person and lives a moral life...makes no sense :/

[crepesuzette]

I'm opposed to religion because I think it's illogical, not because of how I was raised.

I always think that it had to do with some bad experiences with religious leaders or some fundamentalist kids at school. guess I was wrong.

[Southside]

I dont believe in church anymore, just the teachings of the Bible and Jesus.I'll give my take on a view issues.

Homosexuality: From a personal standpoint I have nothing against it, and alot of Christians(Except those hardcore Southern Christians) dont have anything against.

Abortion: Should be illegal except in case of rape, harm to mothers health, or incest. You shouldnt be able to just kill off a potential human being inside the womb, that thought is just disgusting to me. Why kill off a baby when you have options such as adoption? Its sickening. It's a statistic, a lot of abortions are due to fears of "lifestyle changes".

[crepesuzette]

They oppose it because they want to hold onto power, simple as that. If it was to do with anal sex they would allow lesbian weddings would they not?

I don't know. I mean society has always been more lenient with lesbians than it had with gay men so i'm assuming that my point was correct, am i not?

Power...nah? What about the common folk who's against it? You think the common folk opposes it because of power? I doubt it.

[LouBerry]

Wait what? You're saying homosexuals and adulterers and thieves are not going to hell...but an atheist will because s/he doesn't believe in God.....even if s/he is a good person and lives a moral life...makes no sense :/

Well, I grew up in a Baptist church. So, basically, I believe that you can't buy your way to Heaven. Good works aren't enough.

I didn't say that I think that's great, you think that I don't have family and friends that don't believe in God? But that is what I believe, yes.




**Okay, since there are a few people asking about this.

Supposedly, When you say the "Sinners prayer" and you are "saved" the Holy Spirit comes into your heart. A little tiny piece of God, chillin' out in there. That gives you a direct line of communication to God. If you do not know God, the Bible is quite clear. He'll turn you away and say, "Depart from me, I never knew you". And yes, it is harsh. But all He wants us to do is acknowledge that we believe in Him. Why would he want people that mocked Him and never believed in Him to live with Him forever?

[saea97]

Well, I grew up in a Baptist church. So, basically, I believe that you can't buy your way to Heaven. Good works aren't enough.

I didn't say that I think that's great, you think that I don't have family and friends that don't believe in God? But that is what I believe, yes.

This God sounds monstrous and I wouldn't want a thing to do with him.

[Harry Smith]

I don't know. I mean society has always been more lenient with lesbians than it had with gay men so i'm assuming that my point was correct, am i not?

Power...nah? What about the common folk who's against it? You think the common folk opposes it because of power? I doubt it.

That's wrong, your point is incorrect. Gay and Lesbians rights are mutual, that's why countries bring in gay marriage for men and women not simply for one gender.

The leadership oppose it because it threatens there power,

I always think that it had to do with some bad experiences with religious leaders or some fundamentalist kids at school. guess I was wrong.

Why do you keep saying this? I've been raised in a secular household, the large majority of Atheists don't follow religion because it's as said illogical and makes no sense. We disagree with the whole idea


Well, I grew up in a Baptist church. So, basically, I believe that you can't buy your way to Heaven. Good works aren't enough.

I didn't say that I think that's great, you think that I don't have family and friends that don't believe in God? But that is what I believe, yes.

**Okay, since there are a few people asking about this.

Supposedly, When you say the "Sinners prayer" and you are "saved" the Holy Spirit comes into your heart. A little tiny piece of God, chillin' out in there. That gives you a direct line of communication to God. If you do not know God, the Bible is quite clear. He'll turn you away and say, "Depart from me, I never knew you". And yes, it is harsh. But all He wants us to do is acknowledge that we believe in Him. Why would he want people that mocked Him and never believed in Him to live with Him forever?

This is stupid, there is absolutely no evidence to support any of this. This might as well be something said by someone after they've been down to the pub and had 10 pints. It just a way to scare you into following a set of rules set by a cult. Which is what it is.

Prime indicator of a cult, if you don't do X then you can't Y.

If you don't believe in god you won't live forever

[Harry Smith]

Double post

[saea97]

And yes, it is harsh. But all He wants us to do is acknowledge that we believe in Him. Why would he want people that mocked Him and never believed in Him to live with Him forever?

It's not mocking, it's a statement of disbelief on reasoned grounds. And it seems to me that reasoned disbelief is much less of a crime than adultery or thievery, but yet God chooses the criminals? It's petty and, notably, very human, which helps to illustrate that humans invented God and transposed their own characteristics to him.

[Stronk Serb]

Well, while I was in Christian studies, they taught me to hate gay people, abortion, cheatimg in all cases, Islam. A few months later, I sat own and thought about it, what have gay people as a whole done to me? Did all of them rape me or harass me? No. What about Muslims, Christians started the Crusades, and were very barbaric, while the Musliks were far more civilised. Did Muslims do anything wrong to me? No. I realised then that Christianity is a way of controlling people. I have my freedom, I have my choice, no gods, no kings, only Man.

[britishboy]

Well, while I was in Christian studies, they taught me to hate gay people, abortion, cheatimg in all cases, Islam. A few months later, I sat own and thought about it, what have gay people as a whole done to me? Did all of them rape me or harass me? No. What about Muslims, Christians started the Crusades, and were very barbaric, while the Musliks were far more civilised. Did Muslims do anything wrong to me? No. I realised then that Christianity is a way of controlling people. I have my freedom, I have my choice, no gods, no kings, only Man.

DID THEY ACTUALLY TEACH YOU THAT IS SCHOOL?!?! :o and why only Christian studies? we have RE and study all religions

[Stronk Serb]

DID THEY ACTUALLY TEACH YOU THAT IS SCHOOL?!?! :o and why only Christian studies? we have RE and study all religions


Yes, not directly, but they said it was wrong and that people like that should not be with God since he rejects them or some bull like that. It is Christian studies since there were no other students who were not Christian, only atheists who went to civic education. Well, I am free now, so no hating on any basis. Call me a commie, a heretic, an infidel, I don't care :P

[britishboy]

Yes, not directly, but they said it was wrong and that people like that should not be with God since he rejects them or some bull like that. It is Christian studies since there were no other students who were not Christian, only atheists who went to civic education. Well, I am free now, so no hating on any basis. Call me a commie, a heretic, an infidel, I don't care :P

how the fuck is that legal?:o not multicultural and encourages people to hate! is serbia a christian country? or was it a christian school? or was the teacher just a dick?

[Stronk Serb]

how the fuck is that legal?:o not multicultural and encourages people to hate! is serbia a christian country? or was it a christian school? or was the teacher just a dick?



Loool, nobody gives half a dick about things when the "All-Praised Serbian Orthodox Church" is involved. What sickens me the most is that many bishops and priests are gay, but say "kill the faggot!" (no offence intended). To all gay people, do not coke here if you wish to remain alive, even straight guys are getting beat up if they dress more lavishly and wear pink, orange, yellow high quality clothes. Anything which is worn by stereotipical gay people is like putting a 'kill me' sign on yourself. I got nothing against gay people, but some people are just plain homophobic and ignorant. That's why I started to dislike Christianity, too much pointless hatred. Yes, I will burn in Hell if a God exists, I do not belong in Heaven, I cannot live with one who treats people unequally, if these were the Middle Ages, I would be labeled as a heretic and executed. At least I would die free.

[badthoughts]

so basically you think that I'm going be sent to an underground chamber ruled by an evil overlord
Nope. Actually, you'll be thrown into a fiery lake of burning sulphur. Sounds very unpleasant. As for Satan, he won't be ruling anything; when the days of this world come to an end, Satan will be captured and bound with chains and sealed in an abyss for a thousand years. Afterwards, he'll be freed for a short period of time, then he will be recaptured and thrown into the fiery lake with all who have previously been thrown in including the anti-christ.

but an adulterer or thief who does believe in God is going to Heaven?
If somebody genuinely believes and confesses their belief, then they won't be doing any adultering or thieving. But, so that you know, we will all be judged on what we have done. The adulterer-who-believes might be going to heaven, but he/she will certainly be judged on his/her wicked ways and punished accordingly.

I view religion as corrosive to society
Religion...perhaps. But faith, hope and love? Not only are they non-corrosive, but they are reparative and restorative for humanity.

[Harry Smith]

Nope. Actually, you'll be thrown into a fiery lake of burning sulphur. Sounds very unpleasant. As for Satan, he won't be ruling anything; when the days of this world come to an end, Satan will be captured and bound with chains and sealed in an abyss for a thousand years. Afterwards, he'll be freed for a short period of time, then he will be recaptured and thrown into the fiery lake with all who have previously been thrown in including the anti-christ.

So your only evidence for this is a book written in the middle east 2000 years ago by a couple of men?

[Stronk Serb]

So your only evidence for this is a book written in the middle east 2000 years ago by a couple of men?


After applying common sense, I realised that also.

[Harry Smith]

After applying common sense, I realised that also.

They develop these massive theories and assume that because they can imagine it then it must be true. Just because you say that there is a devil doesn't mean that there is one

[saea97]

Religion...perhaps. But faith, hope and love? Not only are they non-corrosive, but they are reparative and restorative for humanity.

Faith - believing in something without evidence and often obstinately in the face of counterevidence - is not reparative or restorative, but is an insult to the sophistication of the human mind.

Hope is the most interesting one; it's nice to have hope but hope doesn't give any indication of the truth, and the truth of the Universe doesn't owe you any hope. It seems greedy to hope for life after death when the odds against ever existing are so incredibly small. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac33dOAgqus&feature=g-vrec

Love, of course is beneficial to humanity, but religion does not have the monopoly on love (and it's staggering that you imply it) and in fact creates much hatred and war between faiths. Atheists have never killed each other in vast numbers over who believes in God less.

[Chelsea716]

Here's what I think about religion:
It's all man made. It's a excuse for what we don't understand. For what we don't want to understand and a way to blow off reality.

[badthoughts]

So your only evidence for this
I have no evidence whatsoever.

is a book written in the middle east 2000 years ago by a couple of men?
The assertions made here are both vague and incorrect. If by "book" you mean the bible in its entirety, then there were more than just "a couple of men" who had a hand in writing it. However, if your use of "book" refers to the Book of Revelation from which I took the fiery lake reference, then "just a couple of men" is wrong again as it was authored by a single man traditionally believed to be John the beloved disciple of Jesus, but more recently believed to be a completely different John.

Also, the part of the bible commonly referred to as the "old testament" is much older than 2000 years. It is comprised of Hebrew scripture that has been around long before the start of the common era (denoted as either 1 A.D. or 1 C.E.) with the oldest existing manuscript being about 4000 years old, and much of the Hebrew scriptures are believed to be upwards of ten-thousand years old.

[Harry Smith]

I have no evidence whatsoever.


The assertions made here are both vague and incorrect. If by "book" you mean the bible in its entirety, then there were more than just "a couple of men" who had a hand in writing it. However, if your use of "book" refers to the Book of Revelation from which I took the fiery lake reference, then "just a couple of men" is wrong again as it was authored by a single man traditionally believed to be John the beloved disciple of Jesus, but more recently believed to be a completely different John.

Also, the part of the bible commonly referred to as the "old testament" is much older than 2000 years. It is comprised of Hebrew scripture that has been around long before the start of the common era (denoted as either 1 A.D. or 1 C.E.) with the oldest existing manuscript being about 4000 years old, and much of the Hebrew scriptures are believed to be upwards of ten-thousand years old.

I know, much of the old testament has been denounced by modern Christians on the basis that's it is just plain wrong.

Just because it's written in a book doesn't mean its true, you have absolutely no evidence that any of its true. So by extension you follow something that might as well be false, the idea of a God, let alone one which takes interest in us is absurb

[randomnessqueen]

there are plenty of religious institutions with problems, but even more that are just fine.
however, i tend away from the concept of a religious institution. i dont think religion should be a defined group you join, but something personally descript to you

[badthoughts]

edit

[saea97]

As an aside, you have the same name as Shmu'el (English: Samuel), last of the great Judges of Israel and first of the revered prophets, present not only in Judeo-Christian scripture but in Islamic scripture also. Interpretation is shem = "name," but when used in this regard means son, El = God, therefore Samuel is "son of God." Unlike most others, Samuel didn't have to approach the tabernacle to speak with God, rather he communicated directly with God wherever and whenever, which only a handful of men before him had done. Also, he was said to have been extremely intelligent, which seems to be a trait shared by both of you. Additionally, God blessed him with great wealth, and he was known to be sympathetic to the Israelites, taking his entire household with him when he traveled so that he would not have to impose on the hospitality of others. One of the more interesting things, if not ironic and humorous, about Samuel is that, after his death, his spirit was summoned back into this world by a witch! Of all the people, it was a witch, a spiritual medium, who by all accounts is in cahoots with the devil, and she used her dark arts to summon the soul of a very holy man. Ironic.

I've always found the etymology of my name amusingly ironic too! :D


seemingly no faith


I don't regard that as a bad thing.


and little hope,


I'm content with my limited earthly existence. There's no point hoping for the laws of biology to be altered in my favour. All the evidence points to the conclusion that, quite simply, after you die you're dead. This is no reason to be unhappy - "little hope" is true in the sense you mean it with regards to me, but in my opinion carries no negative connotations.

and I don't know what it's like to be devoid of those two things. It seems like it would keep me contained, trapped in a box of logic that I've created for myself, whereas a little bit of faith is very freeing.

I don't agree with your choice of the word "trapped" - I choose logical reasoning over faith because a logical and scientific/evidencial approach to thought is more conducive to success than believing without evidence - a.k.a "faith".

If you want to tell me that you love me and promise to never betray me, then okay, I believe you. I trust you even without a big logical breakdown. It's that simple, and I can do that because I have faith in you, regardless of what our sophisticated human mind might say otherwise.

This reflects very positively on your character but I'm not sure it's really relevant either way.

And that's all God wants for humanity, for us to just say "okay. I trust you," but we are so inept that we can't even do that.

All I ask of God in return is that he demonstrate his existence. There are so many atheists because there isn't any evidence for God. Nobody doesn't "believe in" gravity, because there's lots of evidence for gravity.

[TheSocialInspector]

What Religion can bring, is a rational explanation to how the Universe came to be. It started with a massive burst of energy, resulting in the cosmical expansion. That, as far as it goes, most of us can agree on without attempting to wring each others necks. Then the factual basis after that, is what I am going to use in my argument. You look at the Universe around us, the galactic evolution, the fact there even is intelligibility in this massive world - could this be by chance? Probably one in a billion or more, or a more logical view would be to consider that this Universe was created by a spiritual being of premature being. There is this intriguing complexity to the world we live in that couldn't have just occurred due to the transpiration of pure chance that our Universe just somehow cosmically expanded into.

[whatsgoinon53]

Interestng thaughts, care to expand them?

Tell me Harry Smith...Can you see your brain? Can you feel your brain? Can you smell it? Hear it? Taste it? Well by what you're saying, that means your brain mus not exist! I can't see, feel, smell, hear or taste my God. But I can believe in him!

[Origami]

Tell me Harry Smith...Can you see your brain? Can you feel your brain? Can you smell it? Hear it? Taste it? Well by what you're saying, that means your brain mus not exist! I can't see, feel, smell, hear or taste my God. But I can believe in him!

This excuse is old and wrong.
You can see your brain thanks to medical imaging hardware.
You can't smell/taste/feel your own brain, but others can.

Also, you quoted the wrong person, that's not even Harry. Oh boy, kid.

[whatsgoinon53]

Don't tell me my beliefs are wrong and don't call me kid. Who knows, they might me wrong they might not. Only medical technology can let you see your brain. I was referring to using you bear hands and your naked eye.

[Origami]

Don't tell me my beliefs are wrong and don't call me kid. Who knows, they might me wrong they might not. Only medical technology can let you see your brain. I was referring to using you bear hands and your naked eye.

I didn't say your beliefs were wrong, I said your argument was wrong. There is a difference. After all, a Christian saying God isn't real wouldn't make much since, now would it?

And it doesn't matter if you can't see your own brain. People can see yours. You could witness a brain being removed from a corpse. That is more than enough proof that yours is there. So again, your argument is wrong. So please, don't try to argue with Harry using such a faulted argument - he will win.

[Capto]

Don't tell me my beliefs are wrong and don't call me kid. Who knows, they might me wrong they might not. Only medical technology can let you see your brain. I was referring to using you bear hands and your naked eye.

If I wanted to, I could cut a portion of my brain out, see it, feel it, smell it, and taste it.

It would be hella disgusting, but I theoretically could.

The point is that we have direct access to our brains.

What direct access do you have to God?

[darthearth]

I'm opposed to religion because I think it's illogical, not because of how I was raised.


This God sounds monstrous and I wouldn't want a thing to do with him.

You may get your wish.

I've always wondered why atheists reject people's spiritual experiences by coming up with every excuse they can think of, then say their is no "evidence". What of my experience hearing a loud playground outside my window at 4:30am when I had to be up early for a band trip?

I prayed to the Lord to help me not fall back asleep again when I had to be up at 4:30am for a band trip (and I only half jokingly prayed, not half-joking there was a Lord but half-joking about me wanting to go back to sleep). Upon waking the next morning, I rose up in my bed. After raising up I figured I could maybe lay back down for a few minutes and take more time getting out of bed. As I laid my head back down, as my head neared the pillow, I began to hear a loud playground outside my bedroom window. It was the sound of a lot of children playing with what sounded like adults moaning in the midst of them. There it was, children laughing and having fun, with moaning in the midst.

I rose up immediately. "What in the world was that?" I thought, scared me. When I rose up the sounds immediately stopped. I was like "What the.....?" Everything was silent. So out of curiosity (I was WIDE awake now for sure after that jolt) I began to lay my head back down again. As soon as my head neared the pillow, the same sounds started back up again just as before! I was like "What?!". The sounds stopped again after I raised back up. Then I proceeded to lay my head back down and raise it up a total of nine times (I purposely kept count), and sure enough, the playground and moans started back up every time my head would near the pillow. I then got up out of bed and looked outside - completely dark and silent except the street lights as would be expected for 4:30am. After this astonishment I all of a sudden remembered my "half joking" prayer. The prayer was answered in the strongest terms! I understand now that I received this as a for all future lynchpin, in acknowledgement for my faith.

Explain that one.

(I'm a Christian by the way, I Love God and I know God loves us.)

[saea97]

You may get your wish.

I'm terrified.

I've always wondered why atheists reject people's spiritual experiences by coming up with every excuse they can think of, then say their is no "evidence". What of my experience hearing a loud playground outside my window at 4:30am when I had to be up early for a band trip?

I prayed to the Lord to help me not fall back asleep again when I had to be up at 4:30am for a band trip (and I only half jokingly prayed, not half-joking there was a Lord but half-joking about me wanting to go back to sleep). Upon waking the next morning, I rose up in my bed. After raising up I figured I could maybe lay back down for a few minutes and take more time getting out of bed. As I laid my head back down, as my head neared the pillow, I began to hear a loud playground outside my bedroom window. It was the sound of a lot of children playing with what sounded like adults moaning in the midst of them. There it was, children laughing and having fun, with moaning in the midst.

I rose up immediately. "What in the world was that?" I thought, scared me. When I rose up the sounds immediately stopped. I was like "What the.....?" Everything was silent. So out of curiosity (I was WIDE awake now for sure after that jolt) I began to lay my head back down again. As soon as my head neared the pillow, the same sounds started back up again just as before! I was like "What?!". The sounds stopped again after I raised back up. Then I proceeded to lay my head back down and raise it up a total of nine times (I purposely kept count), and sure enough, the playground and moans started back up every time my head would near the pillow. I then got up out of bed and looked outside - completely dark and silent except the street lights as would be expected for 4:30am. After this astonishment I all of a sudden remembered my "half joking" prayer. The prayer was answered in the strongest terms! I understand now that I received this as a for all future lynchpin, in acknowledgement for my faith.

Explain that one.

This is a charming story, and I'm very glad that you managed to make it to your band trip, but obviously I think you're hallucinating. I wasn't there to hear it - presumably other people also didn't hear it when you questioned them. Therefore it amounts to no evidence. The mind is a powerful thing - especially when sleep-deprived; things can seem very real when they aren't. For example, given your conscious desire to be awake very early, your brain could have created the stimuli internally, as it is very much capable of.

The other morning I woke up at what I thought to be nine o'clock, and experienced abject panic, pulled on my school uniform and raced out of the front door, only to find it still dark outside. Befuddled, I checked the time on my phone, to discover it was three o'clock, not nine, and my confused brain had misread the hour hand on the clock in my bedroom, while also being too tired to make the connection that it could not possibly still be dark outside my window at 9am.

So why my story? Two reasons: One, we seem to be engaging in "pointless storytime", so I thought it'd be polite to reply in kind, and two, to illustrate how the brain is not infallible and we can't always trust it, and therefore personal experiences which may be very powerful to the one experiencing them actually amount to zero explanatory power.

Finally, I have to wonder how this one apparent miracle convinces you that following a particular religion is correct. You haven't actually said it, but I'll just assume you're a Christian (since you charmingly implied I'll be off to Hell in your opening line) (never mind, this has now been edited in) for the purposes of this line of thought. Even if your brain had actually been right and the noises had come from an external stimulus, why would this amount to evidence of anything else ever attested to by Christianity? To the resurrection of Jesus, for example?

(I'm a Christian by the way, I Love God and I know God loves us.)

Allegation without evidence. How do you know God loves us? Because it says so in the Bible? How do you know the Bible is true or reliable?

[Gigablue]

I've always wondered why atheists reject people's spiritual experiences by coming up with every excuse they can think of, then say their is no "evidence". What of my experience hearing a loud playground outside my window at 4:30am when I had to be up early for a band trip?

I prayed to the Lord to help me not fall back asleep again when I had to be up at 4:30am for a band trip (and I only half jokingly prayed, not half-joking there was a Lord but half-joking about me wanting to go back to sleep). Upon waking the next morning, I rose up in my bed. After raising up I figured I could maybe lay back down for a few minutes and take more time getting out of bed. As I laid my head back down, as my head neared the pillow, I began to hear a loud playground outside my bedroom window. It was the sound of a lot of children playing with what sounded like adults moaning in the midst of them. There it was, children laughing and having fun, with moaning in the midst.

I rose up immediately. "What in the world was that?" I thought, scared me. When I rose up the sounds immediately stopped. I was like "What the.....?" Everything was silent. So out of curiosity (I was WIDE awake now for sure after that jolt) I began to lay my head back down again. As soon as my head neared the pillow, the same sounds started back up again just as before! I was like "What?!". The sounds stopped again after I raised back up. Then I proceeded to lay my head back down and raise it up a total of nine times (I purposely kept count), and sure enough, the playground and moans started back up every time my head would near the pillow. I then got up out of bed and looked outside - completely dark and silent except the street lights as would be expected for 4:30am. After this astonishment I all of a sudden remembered my "half joking" prayer. The prayer was answered in the strongest terms! I understand now that I received this as a for all future lynchpin, in acknowledgement for my faith.

Explain that one.

I wasn't there, so I can't obviously say exactly what happened, but that sounds like a hypnagogic hallucination to me. Basically, in the transition between sleep and waking, many people begin to hallucinate. The hallucinations can be visual, auditory, or rarely, involving other modalities. The fact that you heard the noise of a playground, which tends to be scattered, and not coherent speech, is further evidence of a hallucination. Which I can't absolutely prove that that's what happened, your experience has all the hallmarks of a hypnagogic hallucination.

Also, even if that were unexplainable, that would in no way prove your god. When you make a claim as extraordinary as the Christian god, you had better have more convincing existence than that. Good quality evidence must be verifiable (documented by multiple people), consistent (observed many times) and genuinely unexplainable by all scientific means. If it doesn't meet those criteria, it doesn't really prove anything.

[Troy35216]

changed my mind about getting involved in this discussion. there's no way to resolve it

[whatsgoinon53]

If I wanted to, I could cut a portion of my brain out, see it, feel it, smell it, and taste it.

It would be hella disgusting, but I theoretically could.

The point is that we have direct access to our brains.

What direct access do you have to God?

Prayer. I can talk to God and he will answer my prayers with a yes, no or a maybe.

[Nellerin]

Prayer. I can talk to God and he will answer my prayers with a yes, no or a maybe.

Prayer is very Psychological though and is simply causing a release of DMT in the brain, likely from the Pineal Gland. So if you are talking to God, realize that it is because you are basically high on a drug...

Here's what I think about religion:
It's all man made. It's a excuse for what we don't understand. For what we don't want to understand and a way to blow off reality.

The question is...what is Reality? Now, DMT trips or MDMA/Shroom trips appear to reveal more reality than what we normally see.

And these same things which cause Spirituality are what make us Human. If we do not have Spirituality we literally are not human in any way and we would not have evolved past animals which are distantly related to Apes/Chimps.

I do not go by any current real religion, but since believing that there is more than what we just see is literally the core thing that makes us Human, I'm fairly certain that it is true.

The more you know.... :yeah:

Merged. -StoppingTime

[darthearth]

obviously I think you're hallucinating

sounds like a hypnagogic hallucination to me

What is the most straightforward interpretation without materialism bias? I assure you I was wide awake when placing my head down those 9 times (11 times in all) and nothing like it has happened before or since. I was in a state of adrenaline pumped alertness, wide awake, consciously and intelligently thinking in the clearest manner to lay may head down those 9 times just to see if the sounds would continue to start and stop in exactly the same way every time. I actually said to myself "I am going to lay my head down and bring it back up again a total of 9 times and see if these sounds begin and stop every single time." Further, the fact the sounds started and stopped in such a specific way as to satisfy a very specific prayer the night before clearly implies that they were purposefully meant to achieve the end of the prayer. Only materialism bias would suggest otherwise.

This was no hallucination.

Many people have died and come back with wonderful stories to tell (some with specific instructions to spread the word), but the poor atheists are forced to claim "hallucination" or deceit for money (yes, go ahead and mention correlations with carbon dioxide or whatever, how much does that really contribute). I would hate to be forced into such closed mindedness. If Jesus Christ Himself had appeared to me in my room that morning and personally talked to me no doubt atheists would still claim "hallucination" or deceit. It's all they have. In fact, if these things really did happen and if there is a God that would just like us to have faith in Him with the reason to do so being creation itself and the fact that we are conscious beings observing a world where no physical system by itself can reasonably be p-conscious, they would have no hope of discovering this. (I independently studied the hard problem of consciousness this past semester and I think this is just common sense, but I know you will attempt to object to this claim, but I will just stand on common sense, I think it's pretty safe here.)

My experience does not directly support any specific "God" of any specific religion. I realized that when I had it. However, given that I was treated to such a remarkable experience suggests that my Christianity is at least not enmity to the higher powers that are. I actually used to think the gospel stories were largely mythical but I've been studying the Shroud of Turin this summer and now realize that it looks to be the true burial shroud of Christ complete with evidence of His resurrection. I've spent a lot of time the past week or two studying both sides and for now at least it certainly looks like it may be legit. And please do not bring up the carbon dating or McCrone until you've spent time studying both sides in-depth.

Pointless storytime? I think not. And I have no knowledge of you going to Hell, that is up to God to judge. I was just sayin.

[Nellerin]

What is the most straightforward interpretation without materialism bias? I assure you I was wide awake when placing my head down those 9 times (11 times in all) and nothing like it has happened before or since. I was in a state of adrenaline pumped alertness, wide awake, consciously and intelligently thinking in the clearest manner to lay may head down those 9 times just to see if the sounds would continue to start and stop in exactly the same way every time. I actually said to myself "I am going to lay my head down and bring it back up again a total of 9 times and see if these sounds begin and stop every single time." Further, the fact the sounds started and stopped in such a specific way as to satisfy a very specific prayer the night before clearly implies that they were purposefully meant to achieve the end of the prayer. Only materialism bias would suggest otherwise.

This was no hallucination.

Many people have died and come back with wonderful stories to tell (some with specific instructions to spread the word), but the poor atheists are forced to claim "hallucination" or deceit for money (yes, go ahead and mention correlations with carbon dioxide or whatever, how much does that really contribute). I would hate to be forced into such closed mindedness. If Jesus Christ Himself had appeared to me in my room that morning and personally talked to me no doubt atheists would still claim "hallucination" or deceit. It's all they have. In fact, if these things really did happen and if there is a God that would just like us to have faith in Him with the reason to do so being creation itself and the fact that we are conscious beings observing a world where no physical system by itself can reasonably be p-conscious, they would have no hope of discovering this. (I independently studied the hard problem of consciousness this past semester and I think this is just common sense, but I know you will attempt to object to this claim, but I will just stand on common sense, I think it's pretty safe here.)

My experience does not directly support any specific "God" of any specific religion. I realized that when I had it. However, given that I was treated to such a remarkable experience suggests that my Christianity is at least not enmity to the higher powers that are. I actually used to think the gospel stories were largely mythical but I've been studying the Shroud of Turin this summer and now realize that it looks to be the true burial shroud of Christ complete with evidence of His resurrection. I've spent a lot of time the past week or two studying both sides and for now at least it certainly looks like it may be legit. And please do not bring up the carbon dating or McCrone until you've spent time studying both sides in-depth.

Pointless storytime? I think not. And I have no knowledge of you going to Hell, that is up to God to judge. I was just sayin.

Sorry man but you were high..... I will let that sink in for a moment....


Experiences like that, or the near-death ones that you referred to are caused directly by a huge release of DMT in the brain which causes those thoughts/visuals.

[StoppingTime]

I'm not saying anyone has or has not ever 'experienced' God personally or impersonally in their lifetime, but consider the following:

Do you think that people, currently, (or ever, really) can explain everything using science? We haven't been able to as of yet, so maybe some things can't be rationalized. Just a thought.

[saea97]

What is the most straightforward interpretation without materialism bias?

What is the only explanation without religious bias? "God must have done it because I prayed" offers no explanatory power.

I assure you I was wide awake when placing my head down those 9 times (11 times in all)

I thought I was wide awake too while running about getting ready for school in a panic, but it still turned out to be 3 o'clock.

Further, the fact the sounds started and stopped in such a specific way as to satisfy a very specific prayer the night before clearly implies that they were purposefully meant to achieve the end of the prayer. Only materialism bias would suggest otherwise.

How extraordinary that the all-powerful God (/Zeus/Odin/Apollo etc) chose to intervene with your comparatively measly problem in such a comprehensive way. How unbelievable that he chose your prayer to attend band camp over the prayers he must receive at an unending rate from people who are starving, whose lives are in danger or who are stricken by poverty and disease. How remarkable that he chose such an ambiguous and questionable way in which to do it. As David Hume said: Which is more likely - that God suspended and violated the laws of nature in your favour or that you are mistaken? (The quote can be personalised to fit any miraculous claim, for example: "Which is more likely, that God revealed himself to you in the form of indistinct playground noises, or that you were hallucinating?")



If Jesus Christ Himself had appeared to me in my room that morning and personally talked to me no doubt atheists would still claim "hallucination" or deceit.

And even more rightly so, given that Jesus died millenia ago and despite the best efforts of religious pseudoscience there is no evidence that he was ever resurrected.


It's all they have. In fact, if these things really did happen and if there is a God that would just like us to have faith in Him with the reason to do so being creation itself

"Creation itself" being explainable by natural processes, with the God hypothesis being a postulation offering no explanatory power at all? Occam's Razor.

I actually used to think the gospel stories were largely mythical but I've been studying the Shroud of Turin this summer and now realize that it looks to be the true burial shroud of Christ complete with evidence of His resurrection. I've spent a lot of time the past week or two studying both sides and for now at least it certainly looks like it may be legit.

Carbon dating at the University of Oxford predicted with a reasonable degree of certainty that the shroud dated to the 13th century.

And please do not bring up the carbon dating

You'd like that, wouldn't you? Damn those scientists disproving my a priori assumptions!

until you've spent time studying both sides in-depth.

What does the other side possibly have to offer to this debate? The Holy See spent years resisting submitting the shroud for dating, presumably because the face looks a bit like Jesus but that's where their evidence ends.

[Gigablue]

What is the most straightforward interpretation without materialism bias? I assure you I was wide awake when placing my head down those 9 times (11 times in all) and nothing like it has happened before or since. I was in a state of adrenaline pumped alertness, wide awake, consciously and intelligently thinking in the clearest manner to lay may head down those 9 times just to see if the sounds would continue to start and stop in exactly the same way every time. I actually said to myself "I am going to lay my head down and bring it back up again a total of 9 times and see if these sounds begin and stop every single time."

You may think you were awake, but the brain doesn't function well in the hypnagogic or hypnopompic states. The feeling of awareness is likely a result of that brain state.

Also, you speak of materialism bias. All the evidence suggests a materialist universe. There is no good evidence for dualism, whereas virtually every prediction made by materialism has been proven correct. It's not bias, it's following the evidence.

Further, the fact the sounds started and stopped in such a specific way as to satisfy a very specific prayer the night before clearly implies that they were purposefully meant to achieve the end of the prayer. Only materialism bias would suggest otherwise.

This sounds like confirmation bias to me. You forget every instance where you prayed and nothing happened, and cling to the one instance where something happened to match your prayer.

It's not unlikely for some prayers to be fulfilled, given enough time and open-ended criteria. If you remember the hits and forget the misses, it'll seem like prayer always works, even though the evidence shows the opposite.

This was no hallucination.

The certainty that you have of a belief says nothing about the accuracy of that belief.

Many people have died and come back with wonderful stories to tell (some with specific instructions to spread the word), but the poor atheists are forced to claim "hallucination" or deceit for money (yes, go ahead and mention correlations with carbon dioxide or whatever, how much does that really contribute).

Near death experiences are easily explained as a result of cerebral hypoxia. When the brain is deprived of oxygen, it stops working properly, causing NDEs. There is no need to invoke the supernatural when biology offers a convincing and more parsimonious explanation.

I would hate to be forced into such closed mindedness.
Atheist aren't closed-minded, theists are. I can tell you what it would take to change my mind. If I were to see many, well documented, unexplainable, reliable miracles, I would consider a deity possible. After that, more study would be necessary to narrow down our understanding of that deity. As long as a deity interacts with the world, science can study it, and science could convince me of its existence. That's open-mindedness. I would change my belief given evidence.

Answer me this: what would change your mind? If you say nothing, you're the closed-minded one.

If Jesus Christ Himself had appeared to me in my room that morning and personally talked to me no doubt atheists would still claim "hallucination" or deceit. It's all they have.

Jesus appearing to you means nothing, because it would very likely be a hallucination. What would be compelling is if jesus appeared to a very large number of people several times. Personal anecdote is worthless, only well controlled, well documented data is useful in finding the truth.

In fact, if these things really did happen and if there is a God that would just like us to have faith in Him with the reason to do so being creation itself and the fact that we are conscious beings observing a world where no physical system by itself can reasonably be p-conscious, they would have no hope of discovering this. (I independently studied the hard problem of consciousness this past semester and I think this is just common sense, but I know you will attempt to object to this claim, but I will just stand on common sense, I think it's pretty safe here.)

The brain creates consciousness. When the brain is damaged, consciousness suffers. When the brain is destroyed, consciousness ends. When it's altered, consciousness is altered. There is no evidence for some sort of soul responsible for consciousness. The brain explains it well enough on its own.

My experience does not directly support any specific "God" of any specific religion. I realized that when I had it. However, given that I was treated to such a remarkable experience suggests that my Christianity is at least not enmity to the higher powers that are. I actually used to think the gospel stories were largely mythical but I've been studying the Shroud of Turin this summer and now realize that it looks to be the true burial shroud of Christ complete with evidence of His resurrection. I've spent a lot of time the past week or two studying both sides and for now at least it certainly looks like it may be legit. And please do not bring up the carbon dating or McCrone until you've spent time studying both sides in-depth.

I hate to break this to you, but the shroud is a mediaeval forgery. We know this be radiocarbon dating, which, by the way, you can't just ignore. The dating proves that the shroud is from about the 13th century. Unless you can prove that the dating is invalid, you can't use the shroud as evidence for your claim.

[Nellerin]

I'm not saying anyone has or has not ever 'experienced' God personally or impersonally in their lifetime, but consider the following:

Do you think that people, currently, (or ever, really) can explain everything using science? We haven't been able to as of yet, so maybe some things can't be rationalized. Just a thought.

Finally, something that we do agree upon. Science will never be able to truly provide an answer for every question because there is an entire "Realm" of non-Physical things that we cannot really go into and study.

However, anything Spiritual does have to be rooted in a Physical thing from what I believe, and our current understanding as to how people have things like near-death experiences, meetings with Aliens, or Talks with God, is that the Pineal Gland is releasing DMT into the body.

So while we might understand the "cause" of these experiences through Science, what happens on the other side or determining if these DMT experiences are "real" or not is basically impossible with Science.

Of course there are other things that Science cannot really explain such as the true creation of the Universe because the Big Bang theory does make sense and it does work, however, there is a wall (when looking back in space [back in time]) that you cannot look through to see the Big Bang actually occurring.

[Gigablue]

I'm not saying anyone has or has not ever 'experienced' God personally or impersonally in their lifetime, but consider the following:

Do you think that people, currently, (or ever, really) can explain everything using science? We haven't been able to as of yet, so maybe some things can't be rationalized. Just a thought.

Science can't explain everything yet, but I see no reason why it couldn't someday. The basic process of science, making hypotheses and collecting data, then analyzing the data and making conclusions, is sound, and has no theoretical limit. I see no reason to assume that the unexplained is forever unexplainable.

Finally, something that we do agree upon. Science will never be able to truly provide an answer for every question because there is an entire "Realm" of non-Physical things that we cannot really go into and study.

What exactly is non-physical? Everything we know of is physical, and we have no reason to assume that anything non-physical exists.

However, anything Spiritual does have to be rooted in a Physical thing from what I believe, and our current understanding as to how people have things like near-death experiences, meetings with Aliens, or Talks with God, is that the Pineal Gland is releasing DMT into the body.

Firstly, define spiritual.

Many supposed spiritual or otherwise supernatural experiences can be explained by neurology. For example, meetings with aliens or gods are often hypnagogic hallucinations, NDEs are caused by cerebral hypoxia, etc.

So while we might understand the "cause" of these experiences through Science, what happens on the other side or determining if these DMT experiences are "real" or not is basically impossible with Science. [/QUOTE]

What exactly do you mean by real? The experiences do occur, in that the person subjectively feels something. However, the correlate in objective reality is not what they think it is. For example, a person might think their NDE was caused by a deity, when it was really caused by brain malfunction. Is that 'real'?

Of course there are other things that Science cannot really explain such as the true creation of the Universe because the Big Bang theory does make sense and it does work, however, there is a wall (when looking back in space [back in time]) that you cannot look through to see the Big Bang actually occurring.

We can't see the exact moment of the Big Bang, because spacetime didn't exist in the same way it does now. We can only see what happened very shortly after. However, we can still model it mathematically and deduce what happened at that moment.

[Nellerin]

Firstly, define spiritual.

Many supposed spiritual or otherwise supernatural experiences can be explained by neurology. For example, meetings with aliens or gods are often hypnagogic hallucinations, NDEs are caused by cerebral hypoxia, etc.

So while we might understand the "cause" of these experiences through Science, what happens on the other side or determining if these DMT experiences are "real" or not is basically impossible with Science.

What exactly do you mean by real? The experiences do occur, in that the person subjectively feels something. However, the correlate in objective reality is not what they think it is. For example, a person might think their NDE was caused by a deity, when it was really caused by brain malfunction. Is that 'real'?
[/QUOTE]


Well you are actually wrong about what causes those experiences, it is indeed DMT based off of the current research.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278

Your statement is a common misconception but we are now finding out that DMT is the core of life.

They are not caused by "brain malfunctions" like you talk about, the brain is supposed to release Dimethyltryptamine.

[Gigablue]

Well you are actually wrong about what causes those experiences, it is indeed DMT based off of the current research.

DMT is not the sole cause. It plays a role, but it is only part of a series of complex pathways that causes NDEs. Also, I don't know what 'current research' you are talking about. I did a PUBMED search looking at DMT and couldn't find anything mentioning supernatural experiences, NDEs, or anything similar. I did find many studies that talk about the relationship between different neurotransmitters and how they cause NDEs in hypoxia conditions.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278

That isn't a reliable source. Firstly, I'm not going to buy the book, so I don't even know what's in it. Secondly, it isn't a study, systematic review, etc. In order for something to be good science, it has to be peer reviewed and accepted by the scientific community.

Your statement is a common misconception but we are now finding out that DMT is the core of life.

Source?

To assume that one substance is that important is overly simplistic. The fact is consciousness is a result of many interactions. There is no single substance at its core. DMT may play a big role, but you exaggerate it's importance.

They are not caused by "brain malfunctions" like you talk about, the brain is supposed to release Dimethyltryptamine.

The brain does naturally release DMT, but the fact is that NDEs are brain malfunctions. They don't happen under normal circumstances. As stated before, DMT is not the sole cause of NDEs. Hypoxia, which is necessary for NDEs, is an abnormal brain state.

[Nellerin]

DMT is not the sole cause. It plays a role, but it is only part of a series of complex pathways that causes NDEs. Also, I don't know what 'current research' you are talking about. I did a PUBMED search looking at DMT and couldn't find anything mentioning supernatural experiences, NDEs, or anything similar. I did find many studies that talk about the relationship between different neurotransmitters and how they cause NDEs in hypoxia conditions.



That isn't a reliable source. Firstly, I'm not going to buy the book, so I don't even know what's in it. Secondly, it isn't a study, systematic review, etc. In order for something to be good science, it has to be peer reviewed and accepted by the scientific community.



Source?

To assume that one substance is that important is overly simplistic. The fact is consciousness is a result of many interactions. There is no single substance at its core. DMT may play a big role, but you exaggerate it's importance.



The brain does naturally release DMT, but the fact is that NDEs are brain malfunctions. They don't happen under normal circumstances. As stated before, DMT is not the sole cause of NDEs. Hypoxia, which is necessary for NDEs, is an abnormal brain state.

Well you did not actually look into the book then. It is about a STUDY performed by DOCTORS at a UNIVERSITY with GOVERNMENT APPROVAL and PEER REVIEW.

It is also a documentary movie on YouTube and Netflix.

[Capto]

Here's a source for papers by Strassman that's not a book [thank god].

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auid:633715

[Nellerin]

Here's a source for papers by Strassman that's not a book [thank god].

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auid:633715

Thanks for sharing that link, should be helpful to some people. The documentary is free on YouTube as well, so people can always check that out for some info.

[darthearth]

Sorry man but you were high..... I will let that sink in for a moment....

How courteous of you.


Experiences like that, or the near-death ones that you referred to are caused directly by a huge release of DMT in the brain which causes those thoughts/visuals.

Why do you claim "caused" and "causes" as opposed to "enabled" and "enables". I have no objection to chemicals enabling spiritual experiences while our body is alive as I believe our body largely prevents us from seeing ourselves as we truly are, that is, as immortal spirits. (As Saint Paul states: We will put off this old tent and take on a new one, our tents are not us.) Given the obvious cause and effect physics design of this "realm" it makes some sense. In fact I believe "enabled" is more reasonable given the diversity of experience with the same molecular structure. After reading wikipedia it seems DMT might also be responsible for our consciousness while awake. Perfectly sensible in my spiritual view.

If you would still like to use the term "cause", then tell me how the molecules of DMT organize and administer something like a life review.


The brain creates consciousness. When the brain is damaged, consciousness suffers. When the brain is destroyed, consciousness ends. When it's altered, consciousness is altered. There is no evidence for some sort of soul responsible for consciousness. The brain explains it well enough on its own.


I was talking about phenomenal consciousness (p-consciousness), this is the "hard problem" of consciousness. Physical systems cannot perceive things, they are just particles and forces. Disagree? Then tell me how a group of particles and forces can become sentient, how is our subjective experience not just information recorded in neural processes that an immortal spirit, capable of p-consciousness, "reads out".


You'd like that, wouldn't you? Damn those scientists disproving my a priori assumptions!

I hate to break this to you, but the shroud is a mediaeval forgery. We know this be radiocarbon dating, which, by the way, you can't just ignore. The dating proves that the shroud is from about the 13th century. Unless you can prove that the dating is invalid, you can't use the shroud as evidence for your claim.

I suggested that you both study the topic before making a comment. Since you did not, ignorant statements result. The material that was dated has been shown to be from a medieval patch that is not representative of the original shroud. See Ray Rogers 2005 paper, the team at Los Alamos back up this result.



What does the other side possibly have to offer to this debate? The Holy See spent years resisting submitting the shroud for dating, presumably because the face looks a bit like Jesus but that's where their evidence ends.


Why don't you look into it, you might learn something. It took me about a couple of weeks to review pertinent information and to reach a knowledgeable opinion. The skeptics no longer have a case. The best current hypothesis that matches all the presently known facts is that the body of Jesus transformed into some type of radiant energy that the shroud subsequently fell through. However, of course, this hasn't been proven yet. Also I will point out that physicist Frank Tipler saw evidence for a virgin birth in the DNA data from shroud blood. This also, however, has not been confirmed yet. Studies continue and more information is revealed on an ongoing basis.

As for the rest of what you two wrote:

I basically see materialists attempting to preserve their belief system. Also, the problem of evil and evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as well as all other issues mentioned are frankly "old", need we rehash it? Let's save some time.


Side note: I wasn't getting up early for band camp but a trip to Florida, we had to leave at 6am since we were driving "straight through". And honestly I don't see an appropriate comparison between misreading a clock and the experience I described. But thanks anyway for the thought.

[saea97]

I suggested that you both study the topic before making a comment. Since you did not, ignorant statements result. The material that was dated has been shown to be from a medieval patch that is not representative of the original shroud. See Ray Rogers 2005 paper, the team at Los Alamos back up this result.


I actually did do some research (because that's how people with a materialistic worldview proceed) before replying the first time, and I was looking forward to this answer. This so-called argument is so rubbish that I don't even feel guilty about using copypasta to address it. Bolded some pertinent parts.

The official report of the dating process, written by the people who performed the sampling, states that the sample "came from a single site on the main body of the shroud away from any patches or charred areas."

Mechthild Flury-Lemberg is an expert in the restoration of textiles, who headed the restoration and conservation of the Turin Shroud in 2002. She has written that it’s possible to repair a coarsely woven fabric in such a way as to be invisible, if the damage was not too severe and the original warp threads are still present, but that it is never possible to repair a fine fabric in a way which would be truly invisible, as the repair will always be "unequivocally visible on the reverse of the fabric." She criticized the theory that the C14 tests were done on an invisible patch as "wishful thinking"

Wishful thinking characterizes your entire experience and the arguments of so many religious people.

The best current hypothesis that matches all the presently known facts is that the body of Jesus transformed into some type of radiant energy that the shroud subsequently fell through.

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA%2C_OH_WOW.jpg

You absolutely must be trolling.

As for the rest of what you two wrote:

I basically see materialists attempting to preserve their belief system. Also, the problem of evil and evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as well as all other issues mentioned are frankly "old", need we rehash it? Let's save some time.

Never, even once, has an atheistic theory (i.e. a scientific theory that does not presuppose a God or any supernaturality) been disproved by theistic means. The only way forward for human understanding and endeavour is science, not your unsubstantiated stone/bronze age mythology. Moreover, atheism isn't a belief system; it has no tenets, no assembly places, no willing subservience. It's simply a rejection, on reasoned grounds, of the claims of theism.

I am in no way surprised that you want to skip hurriedly over the problem of evil; that doesn't make it any less of a problem.


And honestly I don't see an appropriate comparison between misreading a clock and the experience I described. But thanks anyway for the thought.

It was both a parody of your ridiculous story and a point that the brain is easily susceptible to hallucinations or misinformation when in a hypnagogic state.

Finally, forgive me for requoting, but I feel it needs to be said again for emphasis:

How extraordinary that the all-powerful God (/Zeus/Odin/Apollo etc) chose to intervene with your comparatively measly problem in such a comprehensive way. How unbelievable that he chose your prayer to wake upin time to go to Florida (fixed that, since apparently it's so pertinent) over the prayers he must receive at an unending rate from people who are starving, whose lives are in danger or who are stricken by poverty and disease. How remarkable that he chose such an ambiguous and questionable way in which to do it. As David Hume said: Which is more likely - that God suspended and violated the laws of nature in your favour or that you are mistaken?

[darthearth]

Wishful thinking characterizes your entire experience and the arguments of so many religious people.

I find Flury-Lemberg's textile argument unconvincing in response to Rogers, important evidence wasn't even addressed, such as the fiber chemistry for example. Also see the 2013 paper by Fanti, in which the patch was confirmed yet again. Consider extending your research efforts beyond wikipedia.


I don't need the shroud to be legitimate for my spiritual view, I felt perfectly fine when I saw things in a more mythical fashion, it is just that an objective look without materialism bias indicates at the present time legitimacy (of course this could change with further research).


To characterize "everything" as wishful thinking is a ludicrous cop out.


One can lead dogged materialists to life giving water, but one cannot make them drink.

[saea97]

I find Flury-Lemberg's textile argument unconvincing in response to Rogers,

Of course you do, you have an a priori investment in the Church's account of the Shroud.

Also see the 2013 paper by Fanti, in which the patch was confirmed yet again.

"Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research."

You share this vested interest with Fanti, apparently. But sure, it's the materialists who are biased! :rolleyes:

What about other arguments, though? C-14 dating done by three independent laboratories is more than enough for me, but you can also consider that the methods necessary to fake the shroud were available around the 13th century, or that the image on the cloth looks more like a European than a Semite (Add in Flury-Lemberg, who seems to be a reliable source in a position to know, even though you clearly don't like what you hear). The C-14 results are telling, there is more testimony in favour of the sample not being taken from a patch than in favour of your side, and, almost highest in importance, the explanation that the Shroud was a medieval forgery does not require any supernaturality (of course, there has never been a shred of evidence for anything supernatural). So even if Fanti was right and the Shroud dated from 300BC-400AD, even if you were to convince me (you have not) that the Shroud was from the time of Jesus, I fear there would be no studies you could possibly regurgitate that would prove the supposed "best current hypothesis" that "the body of Jesus transformed into some type of radiant energy that the shroud subsequently fell through." (My sides are still aching, by the way.) You would still be left with just a bit of cloth, trying to prove the existence of God, which your side is fatally incapable of doing.


it is just that an objective look without materialism bias indicates at the present time legitimacy

Once again, I question that you are capable of an "objective look" in this regard. Meanwhile, objectivity is what materialism is all about. Science and religion are hostile magisteria not because Science is "out to disprove" religion, but because all the evidence leads firmly away from religion, which is understandably quite annoying for those of faith.

To characterize "everything" as wishful thinking is a ludicrous cop out.

And misrepresentation is a dangerous way to argue. I said YOUR entire experience was wishful thinking, as well as "so many religious people's [arguments from miracles]", which I stand by. I appreciate there may be some arguments for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator that require more than "you are hallucinating and are simply wish-thinking" from a skeptic. Your experience is not one of them.

One can lead dogged materialists to life giving water, but one cannot make them drink.

I could show you where the Sun was, but you'd still have the arrogance to believe you are the centre of the Solar System, of such chief importance that the almighty Creator chooses to intervene in your life.

[darthearth]

Of course you do, you have an a priori investment in the Church's account of the Shroud.



"Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research."

You share this vested interest with Fanti, apparently. But sure, it's the materialists who are biased! :rolleyes:

What about other arguments, though? C-14 dating done by three independent laboratories is more than enough for me, but you can also consider that the methods necessary to fake the shroud were available around the 13th century, or that the image on the cloth looks more like a European than a Semite (Add in Flury-Lemberg, who seems to be a reliable source in a position to know, even though you clearly don't like what you hear). The C-14 results are telling, there is more testimony in favour of the sample not being taken from a patch than in favour of your side, and, almost highest in importance, the explanation that the Shroud was a medieval forgery does not require any supernaturality (of course, there has never been a shred of evidence for anything supernatural). So even if Fanti was right and the Shroud dated from 300BC-400AD, even if you were to convince me (you have not) that the Shroud was from the time of Jesus, I fear there would be no studies you could possibly regurgitate that would prove the supposed "best current hypothesis" that "the body of Jesus transformed into some type of radiant energy that the shroud subsequently fell through." (My sides are still aching, by the way.) You would still be left with just a bit of cloth, trying to prove the existence of God, which your side is fatally incapable of doing.




Once again, I question that you are capable of an "objective look" in this regard. Meanwhile, objectivity is what materialism is all about. Science and religion are hostile magisteria not because Science is "out to disprove" religion, but because all the evidence leads firmly away from religion, which is understandably quite annoying for those of faith.



And misrepresentation is a dangerous way to argue. I said YOUR entire experience was wishful thinking, as well as "so many religious people's [arguments from miracles]", which I stand by. I appreciate there may be some arguments for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator that require more than "you are hallucinating and are simply wish-thinking" from a skeptic. Your experience is not one of them.



I could show you where the Sun was, but you'd still have the arrogance to believe you are the centre of the Solar System, of such chief importance that the almighty Creator chooses to intervene in your life.


Yes. Of course. :yawn:

[tovaris]

Tell me Harry Smith...Can you see your brain? Can you feel your brain? Can you smell it? Hear it? Taste it? Well by what you're saying, that means your brain mus not exist! I can't see, feel, smell, hear or taste my God. But I can believe in him!

what????

[darthearth]

I am atheist I think. I believe that we, as humankind can achieve everything without divine help. I do not believe in any divine entities. While I was Christian, I realised that all the time the Bible has been used as a weapon, that's when I became atheist. It took me a long time to figure that out, now I am free from religious boundaries and way more tolerant to other religions since I am no longer taught to hate by my former church.

Just to let you know, I'm a Christian who does not believe in the infallibility of the Bible, I am homosexual in orientation and practice (and God is fine with that, He created me that way), I believe Saint Paul and any other new testament biblical authors can be ignorant on non-theological issues, and believe science is God's will for us to pursue. I do not believe in the Old Testament God and the genocides that god ordered, I believe most of the Old Testament law (with its hideous laws and penalties) was created by ignorant man. I do not literally believe in the Great Flood or the Genesis creation myth as written in the Bible. I believe in everything science has to offer. I don't believe God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Just wanted to clarify some people can be Christian and not advocate hate or support insanity.


And to my materialist friends: I'm still waiting on how mere particles and forces can become phenomenally conscious (sentient). Why is an immortal spirit, capable of p-consciousness, not necessary for this?

[Nellerin]

Just to let you know, I'm a Christian who does not believe in the infallibility of the Bible, I am homosexual in orientation and practice (and God is fine with that, He created me that way), I believe Saint Paul and any other new testament biblical authors can be ignorant on non-theological issues, and believe science is God's will for us to pursue. I do not believe in the Old Testament God and the genocides that god ordered, I believe most of the Old Testament law (with its hideous laws and penalties) was created by ignorant man. I do not literally believe in the Great Flood or the Genesis creation myth as written in the Bible. I believe in everything science has to offer. I don't believe God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Just wanted to clarify some people can be Christian and not advocate hate or support insanity.


And to my materialist friends: I'm still waiting on how mere particles and forces can become phenomenally conscious (sentient). Why is an immortal spirit, capable of p-consciousness, not necessary for this?

So the only thing that makes you Christian is that you believe in a God? Did he create the World in 6 days or was that false as well.

The issue with God, is that by believing in him, you believe that he was around before Time was even a thing. Time only actually started (physically it was not possible prior to) the Universe being created by the Big Bang.

Even if you say that God lives outside of Time, and chose to use that cop-out excuse. You are inserting a supremely complex being at the beginning of everything, so where did God come from?

God is a projection of the Human Spiritual Mind but not some dude that rules over everything and hangs out in Heaven.

[darthearth]

What Religion can bring, is a rational explanation to how the Universe came to be. It started with a massive burst of energy, resulting in the cosmical expansion. That, as far as it goes, most of us can agree on without attempting to wring each others necks. Then the factual basis after that, is what I am going to use in my argument. You look at the Universe around us, the galactic evolution, the fact there even is intelligibility in this massive world - could this be by chance? Probably one in a billion or more, or a more logical view would be to consider that this Universe was created by a spiritual being of premature being. There is this intriguing complexity to the world we live in that couldn't have just occurred due to the transpiration of pure chance that our Universe just somehow cosmically expanded into.

This.


So the only thing that makes you Christian is that you believe in a God? Did he create the World in 6 days or was that false as well.

The issue with God, is that by believing in him, you believe that he was around before Time was even a thing. Time only actually started (physically it was not possible prior to) the Universe being created by the Big Bang.

Even if you say that God lives outside of Time, and chose to use that cop-out excuse. You are inserting a supremely complex being at the beginning of everything, so where did God come from?

God is a projection of the Human Spiritual Mind but not some dude that rules over everything and hangs out in Heaven.

I say I am Christian because I believe in Christ as our Savior. I don't believe in the 6 24 hour day creation, I believe one of the reasons we are here is to do science and figure how this reality is organized through that.

I looked up "spiritualist" on wikipedia and it left me questioning what you mean when you say spiritualist. I don't think it would be off topic if you could explain a bit more about your beliefs, could you? I would like to understand you better, but am confused. You've talked about DMT doing so much, but wikipedia says spiritualists are into mediums, bringing back spirits of the dead and all that kind of stuff. Wikipedia says spiritualists believe in an apparent separate deity, you say projection of the human spiritual mind. Clarify?

And responding to the "causes" and "enables" question I had may help to. Thanks.

[Harry Smith]

Tell me Harry Smith...Can you see your brain? Can you feel your brain? Can you smell it? Hear it? Taste it? Well by what you're saying, that means your brain mus not exist! I can't see, feel, smell, hear or taste my God. But I can believe in him!

You can see your brain, get a CT scan and it will show up.