abortion?

[britishboy]

should we have abortions?

[Cygnus]

Of course, it should be legal everywhere. I believe that it is a good measure for population control, and if a mother doesn't want a baby, or to save her own life, then she should do it. We could start a whole new market on portable abortion vacuums.

[Jess]

YES we should. It's a woman's right and there's no way for abortion to ever end; it's better to have legal, safe abortion as an option to women than unsafe ones where the chances of death are higher.

Some people think it's murder; but just because they think it's murder doesn't mean they have the right to make a decision for a woman. Not everyone has the same beliefs. Also, if it was murder than every woman who have had an abortion is a murderer; so does that mean they should be jailed?

[britishboy]

YES we should. It's a woman's right and there's no way for abortion to ever end; it's better to have legal, safe abortion as an option to women than unsafe ones where the chances of death are higher.

I agree but I think it would be mice if the man had some rights

[Jess]

Men should have a say, but they shouldn't make the final decision. It's not their body, even if the "baby" is also theirs. They don't have to carry it around for 9 months. That's my opinion on that.

[britishboy]

Men should have a say, but they shouldn't make the final decision. It's not their body, even if the "baby" is also theirs. They don't have to carry it around for 9 months. That's my opinion on that.

I guess so but if the man signs a contact saying giving him all rights and responsiblilities and pays the woman compensation for carrying the baby I think the judge should have the power to deny the abortion also how would you like it if you were anti aboution, religious, love your kid and have to watch it be terminated

[TheDeepestDepths]

I am personally completely against abortion because I believe it's taking a human life and that the baby inside the womb is a person not just a nuisance that is disrupting your life. If you feel as though you're not ready to be a parent then there's plenty of people who would love to raise a child. However, I also believe abortion should be a choice, because women should absolutely be in charge of their own bodies. If you choose to abort I may disagree with your decision but it's still your life and choice and I'm not going to judge you for it.

Putting aside the case of rape, I blame the two people involved in creating the child for the situation. If they were not fully prepared for a child they should have made damn sure she didn't get pregnant. In this day and age when contraception is so easy to come by you have to be ignorant and careless to have an accidental pregnancy. Take me for example, I'm not ready for kids and in my college (I can't speak for any others but I wouldn't imagine it would be all that different) we have free access to condoms and I make damn sure that when I have sex one, if not two, are being used. I'm also on the pill to help with the pain of my period as well as for protection. If for some reason you aren't protected or can't afford it, then don't have sex.

What I'm trying to some to above is that it's not the child's fault it was conceived and the child should not have it's chance at life stripped away before it began, due to the reckless behavior of it's parents.

[Trenton_]

I guess so but if the man signs a contact saying giving him all rights and responsiblilities and pays the woman compensation for carrying the baby I think the judge should have the power to deny the abortion also how would you like it if you were anti aboution, religious, love your kid and have to watch it be terminated

I don't think there is a good answer to abortion. I don't like seeing what could be a perfectly good person terminated, but I'm a guy and wouldn't want someone telling me what I can or can't do to my body.

[Pure Innocent Nun]

I think it should be up to the woman. I personally only believe that abortions should be used if the pregnancy would kill the mother or if it was caused by rape, but it's not really my say in the matter.

Also, if abortions is illegal it honestly doesn't stop women from getting abortions, it just stops them from getting them safely and legally. Many women died because of illegal abortions.

[randomnessqueen]

i completely disagree with them.
but they would never completely illegalise it.
it would be ok if they had it available only for medically dire cases.

[britishboy]

i completely disagree with them.
but they would never completely illegalise it.
it would be ok if they had it available only for medically dire cases.

people would still have them.but instead illegally putting lives in danger

[randomnessqueen]

people would still have them.but instead illegally putting lives in danger

and they would go into it knowing that risk.
you cant really use that reasoning to legalise something, because it could be applied to anything dangerous.
people will always find hard drugs, they are just in more danger now, so might as well legalise them.

[britishboy]

and they would go into it knowing that risk.
you cant really use that reasoning to legalise something, because it could be applied to anything dangerous.
people will always find hard drugs, they are just in more danger now, so might as well legalise them.

abortion should be a persons choice, im against it but what people do is up to them

[randomnessqueen]

abortion should be a persons choice, im against it but what people do is up to them

if you think its ok for people to do it, then why are you against it?

[britishboy]

if you think its ok for people to do it, then why are you against it?

I couldn't ever kill my future child but people should and can chose what to do

[randomnessqueen]

I couldn't ever kill my future child but people should and can chose what to do

so you think its ok for someone to choose to kill?

[britishboy]

so you think its ok for someone to choose to kill?

it is acceptable to terminate the pregnancy and what if you cant afford it? single parent? rape? stop being so narrow sighted it is legal in most western countries

[Human]

I don't like abortions unless the woman was raped, but I'm fine with it.

[Ace of Spades]

Abortion is a woman's right.
You have the right to personally be against it, but you do not have the right to restrict a woman's right to choose.

[britishboy]

Abortion is a woman's right.
You have the right to personally be against it, but you do not have the right to restrict a woman's right to choose.

exactly

[randomnessqueen]

it is acceptable to terminate the pregnancy and what if you cant afford it? single parent? rape? stop being so narrow sighted it is legal in most western countries

youre the one who said you believe its killing here. im saying if you do, then why do you think its ok for someone to choose that? would you say someone has the choice to kill in any other situation. im not trying to make you be against abortion, im trying to make you be consistent with your own beliefs.
also, any of those problems can be solved with adoption, noone dies, and someones who wants a child gets one.

[britishboy]

youre the one who said you believe its killing here. im saying if you do, then why do you think its ok for someone to choose that? would you say someone has the choice to kill in any other situation. im not trying to make you be against abortion, im trying to make you be consistent with your own beliefs.
also, any of those problems can be solved with adoption, noone dies, and someones who wants a child gets one.

soilders kill all the time and thats actually rewarded so its about the situation I believe people should chose butbi would never about

[randomnessqueen]

soilders kill all the time and thats actually rewarded so its about the situation I believe people should chose butbi would never about

just cause theyre celebrated doesnt mean its ok. killing is killing.if you really think killing is wrong, then you shouldnt hold yourself to different moral standards than others.

[Bethany]

I am absolutely pro-choice. I, first and foremost, don't believe a fetus has the same rights as a person. I think the idea that the rights of a clump of growing cells are more important than the rights of a living, breathing person. Also, I don't think it's any of your business if a woman decides to have an abortion. Making abortion illegal will not end abortions, it'll just increase the numbers of deaths women suffer from receiving unsafe abortions.

I consider abortion to be a responsible choice - better than bringing an unwanted child into the world, to potentially live in absolute poverty with parents or a parent who is/are not ready to have a child.


Also, if abortions is illegal it honestly doesn't stop women from getting abortions, it just stops them from getting them safely and legally. Many women died because of illegal abortions.

This.

Abortion is a woman's right.
You have the right to personally be against it, but you do not have the right to restrict a woman's right to choose.

This too.

[IAMWILL]

I am against abortions. Why?
A) It is murder. Any medical embryology textbook will tell you that an embryo is a human being. It is the only logical thing that can be concluded. Our society also defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being, which clearly fits abortion perfectly.
B) It is not a woman's right to choose. Just because she carries the child doesn't make it a part of her. It is a separate, unique human being. We don't say woman have suddenly grown 2 extra arms or legs or have a second heart when they are pregnant for a reason. Also, men should have an equal say, they contributed half the chromosomes and the child belongs equally to them.

Lets not forget that <1% of abortions are done because of incest/rape. Most of them are done because of the fear of "lifestyle change." Abortion has become such a ridiculously easy procedure to get done today that people have sex believing there will never be any consequences. They take on the mentality that the goal of sex is only pleasure and not reproduction, and if it is found that they accidentally created a new life, they will go to all lengths to end it. The only reason Roe vs Wade hasn't been overturned yet is because of precedent, even though the judges that served on Roe vs Wade admitted their ruling was a mistake because they didn't think the American people would stoop so low as to take advantage of the system. (I'm also not sure why people are opposed to it, overturning it would only make abortion a state decided issue, and each state could get what they want).

It should only be allowed in extreme cases, such as the death penalty is only allowed if the person causes a greater threat alive than dead.

/rant. I will explain my views much more thoroughly if those of you that are pro-abortion would like.

[britishboy]

just cause theyre celebrated doesnt mean its ok. killing is killing.if you really think killing is wrong, then you shouldnt hold yourself to different moral standards than others.

I would never abort mt baby but people should have the right and I agree with soilders killing

[Southside]

I dont support it unless rape,incest, or stuff of that nature.. If you have sex, you should be responsible to use a pill or something, not just kill off a potential human being. I dont think they should be illegal though, I also believe in womens choice but if you have a sex its on you. What about adoption? The thought of killing off a potential Human being inside the womb is just disgusting to me.

[Pure Innocent Nun]

I am against abortions. Why?
A) It is murder. Any medical embryology textbook will tell you that an embryo is a human being. It is the only logical thing that can be concluded. Our society also defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being, which clearly fits abortion perfectly.
B) It is not a woman's right to choose. Just because she carries the child doesn't make it a part of her. It is a separate, unique human being. We don't say woman have suddenly grown 2 extra arms or legs or have a second heart when they are pregnant for a reason. Also, men should have an equal say, they contributed half the chromosomes and the child belongs equally to them.

Lets not forget that <1% of abortions are done because of incest/rape. Most of them are done because of the fear of "lifestyle change." Abortion has become such a ridiculously easy procedure to get done today that people have sex believing there will never be any consequences. .

1%, what about the other 99%?
Yes it has given some the idea that you can have sex without consequences, but of course most people with that mindset can easily buy prevention methods to continue to have sex without becoming pregnant.

What about young girls who get raped? They still had a life ahead of them before they might have wanted to be mothers, saying they wanted to be mothers at all. They got that choice taken from them, now they could have an abortion before the baby actually becomes life, but people like yourself want to stop her and call her a murderer.

[IAMWILL]

1%, what about the other 99%?
Yes it has given some the idea that you can have sex without consequences, but of course most people with that mindset can easily buy prevention methods to continue to have sex without becoming pregnant.

What about young girls who get raped? They still had a life ahead of them before they might have wanted to be mothers, saying they wanted to be mothers at all. They got that choice taken from them, now they could have an abortion before the baby actually becomes life, but people like yourself want to stop her and call her a murderer.
Here's a little chart showing percentages for reasons for abortion. This survey, from Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, actually cites rape/incest as less than .5%
http://www.thenation.com/sites/default/files/user/17/AbortionGRv31000px.corrected.jpg

First off, do you really think I want to convict young women as murderers? Lets make this a respectful discussion and quit with the name calling.
People often say that it is unfair that women who have been raped cannot get abortions. Once a rape is committed though, all fairness in the situation is gone. Getting an abortion will not un-rape the women. First of all, the the baby has already come to life at the moment of conception, as I pointed out in my last post. Secondly, adoption is certainly the best option in this situation, if the women does not want to keep the child, although many women do choose to.
Thirdly, having an abortion will not improve the situation at all. Getting an abortion is already a traumatic experience. Plenty of women who have had one will tell you this, if they admit it at that. In a rape, the trauma is "someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed my child." Explain to me how the second action fixes the first.

[Jess]

I am against abortions. Why?
A) It is murder. Any medical embryology textbook will tell you that an embryo is a human being. It is the only logical thing that can be concluded. Our society also defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being, which clearly fits abortion perfectly.

Sigh, if you think it's murder, then all women and girls who have had abortions are murderers. Do you believe then they should be arrested and sentenced? That's what we do to murderers.

(EDIT: I am just curious as to what your answer to that would be. Since I'm pro-choice [not pro-abortion], I obviously disagree with what you said that abortion isn't a woman's right [and that it's murder, of course, but that's always been my stance, so yeah. As I'm bad at debating, I'm not going to argue with you on those two points...>_<])

[Pure Innocent Nun]

"I hurt and killed my child." Explain to me how the second action fixes the first.

Fetus's that are aborted feel no pain, so there's no "I hurt my unborn child".

[britishboy]

people should always have the right to chose

[Eddie.37]

Before, I didn't really have a stand against abortion, but the book Freakonomics was a real eye-opener that made me pro-abortion.

Turns out, most women who have abortions simply don't want a child for various reasons (poverty, teen pregnancy, etc.), and in the long run, these unwanted children, if born, are very much likely to become the problem of society since they are most likely to become criminals.

The book also showed data that linked the rise in legal abortions to the fall of crime in the US during the 90s

so for those of you who say abortion is right, it is and it helps not only the woman but also the rest of society.

as for those of you who say abortion is wrong, maybe this is proof that two wrongs CAN make a right.

[Sugaree]

Fetus's that are aborted feel no pain, so there's no "I hurt my unborn child".

Week 12 of pregnancy: Neurotransmitters capable of sending pain signals to the brain are present (Anesthesiologist Vincent Collins, M.D., outlined in American Medical News editorial of February 24, 1984)

What you just said is a load of bullshit. Fetus can feel pain, but it can't vocalize or somehow show that it is in pain. Again, if you're going spout bullshit, better check up on what your sources are.

As to the question of whether its the choice of a woman to attain an abortion under safe, clinical conditions: I believe within the first trimester, meaning the first three months, that a woman has every right to terminate the pregnancy. However, if we're talking second or third trimester, anywhere between 4 and 9 months into the pregnancy, then there's a problem.

By the middle of the second trimester, say 5 and 1/2 months, the fetus is recognizably human. It has already developed 80% of its nervous system, major organs are almost done forming, and it already has its eyes and most of its brain matter is beginning to form. It can also move and could survive on its own outside the womb for a short time. At this point, I believe that the government has a vested interest in the protection of this potential life. Should it be considered murder? That's debatable, but I don't think so. Should it be considered a type of moral evil? Yes. Since you can't really call it murder (as the child hasn't been born), you are still making a life and death decision. When a fetus stops developing, it's either come to term or dead. There is no in-between.

Obviously, by the third trimester, an abortion at this time would be pretty close to full murder. The child is almost ready for birth and it's suddenly taken out and has its neck twisted or have its head smashed with tongs. Again, can this be considered murder? In some circles, it is; in others, it's not. Whether or not it IS murder is up to the individual, but, again, I stress that it is a moral evil which should be avoided at all costs.

As for myself, I believe that life begins at the moment of conception. There is no doubt in my mind, with everything I've read on this subject from pro-life physicians and even some pro-choice physicians, that the moment that sperm meets the egg, it is a human life. Is it recognizable human life? No; but it is at least the potential for a human that can survive in the outside world once out of the womb. I do not think that abortion should be classified as evil, nor do I believe in shaming people who DO get an abortion. However, to make the decision to kill an unborn life is morally and ethically reprehensible.

There's no excuse for it. Abortion shouldn't be made easily available, but it shouldn't be completely banned either. If a woman wants an abortion, that's her and her physicians' decision. However, by the time of the second trimester, you're treading very very sensitive moral ground. I believe that abortion in cases of rape and incest is fine; the results of these two acts is horrific for a person, and it's more than understandable for them to want an abortion. But when there are women out there who become pregnant and get abortion after abortion after abortion...that's a problem. Abortion shouldn't be as readily available in some states, but it shouldn't be banned either. Abortion can be done safely and in clean, medical conditions. Otherwise, women would have to revert to using metal coat hangers and sewing needles.

While in general I am opposed to abortion, I have no right to come between a woman's decision with her physician. That is a private relationship and I respect it with utmost dignity. Abortion in the first trimester, rape or incest, or if there's a chance the child may not live outside the womb when it comes to term? This is easily understandable. But once the second and third trimester have been reached, if you don't want the child, give it to an adoption service where it can have a family that actually wants it.

I'm not really pro-life, nor am I pro-choice. I can see how the arguments from both sides makes sense. Pro-choice people usually point out women's rights, but they very rarely point out the scientific research that the unborn fetus can provide us. Unborn fetuses provide us with stem cells which can be used to cure disabilities and even some diseases. Pro-life people always point out that it's against the natural order, and in that view, they're right. Abortion is not part of the natural order, nor has it ever been an acceptable practice in recorded history. One can search up The Twinslayer's Case, Rex v. Bourne, and The Abortionists' Case on google and find a plethora of information regarding just English Common Law cases on abortion.

In conclusion, I think it is the most reasonable approach to label abortion, at least in the second to third trimester, as a moral and ethical dilemma. We must also view abortion in cases of rape/incest, the first trimester, or in case of other medical issues as the choice between a woman and her physician. While the state should technically never be involved between the private relationships of physicians and their patients, when it comes to human life, the state needs to take some action to either offer alternatives to abortion or regulate it for special cases.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Really, I think yes there should be abortions and the man should have a little but of say, but not as much as the woman's say in the decision.


But, it IS true that the fetus is partially "living thing" by Week 10 or 12. But the fetus ISN'T really aware of its surroundings, and doesn't express opinions whether it should live or not. That stuff is after birth.

[britishboy]

People have the right to choose, thats why its legal

[Sugaree]

People have the right to choose, thats why its legal

That's, what, the second or third time you've replied just saying this. Either expand your argument or stop debating.

[britishboy]

That's, what, the second or third time you've replied just saying this. Either expand your argument or stop debating.

who you are to tell me what to do? and use your common sence im against abortion but can understand why its legal and people chose it, they should have the right to

[darthearth]

I believe we are spirits at root ("reading out" the brain) and in my mind there is a clear distinction between a human body and soul. Abortion to me is the destruction of a developing human body and is not the destruction of a self-aware person with a soul. Therefore, I am pro-choice. Not sure where the line should be though. Partial birth seems wrong.

[IAMWILL]

I was camping over the long weekend, sorry for not getting back to you. But here are my responses.

Sigh, if you think it's murder, then all women and girls who have had abortions are murderers. Do you believe then they should be arrested and sentenced? That's what we do to murderers.

(EDIT: I am just curious as to what your answer to that would be. Since I'm pro-choice [not pro-abortion], I obviously disagree with what you said that abortion isn't a woman's right [and that it's murder, of course, but that's always been my stance, so yeah. As I'm bad at debating, I'm not going to argue with you on those two points...>_<])

This is quite an interesting topic to me. I don't think women who have abortions should be treated as murderers - not because I don't think abortion isn't murder - but because the circumstances of abortion are often very different from that of a premeditated murder. In murders that were unplanned or committed out of passion, or accidental, the punishment is always less than those which were planned. Women who have abortions are often in a state of desperation, and are almost always pressured by outside sources - told it was a cure and would fix the "problem." In that I do not think women should be punished the same as someone who committed first degree murder. I certainly think a fine, counseling, and possibly probation is a good solution.

Fetus's that are aborted feel no pain, so there's no "I hurt my unborn child".

I believe Fisk answered you're question well. Also, whether or not the fetus is hurt doesn't change the fact that it is killed.

[Sugaree]

who you are to tell me what to do? and use your common sence im against abortion but can understand why its legal and people chose it, they should have the right to

If all you're gonna do is chant "Choice! Choice! Choice!", then you aren't debating. Seriously, that's all you've done in this thread. And if you're not going to do anything else, then leave the thread so we can continue discussing the topic.

[chargersfan]

Personally for me I have mixed feelings. I can see the argument on both sides of the table. But the thing about abortion is regardless of whether it is Legal or not, they will happen. And back alley abortions won't be as safe for the mother and it will lead to crime and potentially violence. So I think it should be legal.

[Stronk Serb]

While I was Christian, I was ready to bomb abortion clinics. Not anymore. I think it should be pro-choice. A woman should choose, or the couple as a whole since they made the baby, depending on the situation. It is common thing for a boyfriend to dump his girlfriend when he finds out she is pregnant. That guy who did not dump his girlfriend should have a little say in the matter, because the baby is also his work.

[britishboy]

count down of pro choice arguments

10. Laws against abortion do not stop
abortion; they simply make it less
safe. The number of women who get
abortions does not change when it
goes from being legal to illegal, or
vice versa. The only thing that
changes is more women die. Every
year, 78,000 women die from unsafe
abortions.
9. If people want to stop abortion,
they should turn to methods that do
work. These include comprehensive
sex education and safe, affordable
contraceptives. Unfortunately, as
illogical as it sounds, the people who
are most against abortion are also
often most against these preventative
measures. If they truly wanted to
reduce the number of abortions that
occur, they would embrace these
methods.
8. The politicians “pro-lifers” so
ardently support are only after one
thing: self-interest. The majority of
them are not “pro-life” because they
agree with you; they are because
they know you will continue to vote
for them—and they know that making
women remain pregnant not only
takes away their power, but it also
keeps them busy, in line, controlled,
as well as a baking factory for their
failing economy. The more people
they have to rule over, the more they
have to work and buy. Period.
7. Religious ideology is no
foundation for any law. Freedom of
religion is guaranteed to any citizen
in the United States; so why would
the beliefs and values of one religion
mandate actual laws for all citizens?
It would be unfair, unjust and
immoral . We do not have laws against
eating fish, nor do we have laws that
declare it is legal to sell one’s
daughter, rape someone, or keep a
person as a slave—all things that are
promoted in religious text.
6. Reproductive restrictions do not
end with abortion. Many people also
argue that contraception itself is
wrong—another mainly-religious
philosophy—and will deny women the
protection they need based on this
belief. There are legislative acts that
allow actual pharmacists to deny
women their birth control because of
their beliefs; does this not violate the
Hippocratic Oath, especially if
thousands of women are on birth
control because their very lives
depend on it (see #2)? Also, since it
is my belief that men should not rape
women, if I were a pharmacist, would
I have a right to deny a man his
Viagra just in case he uses it to
rape? You never know.
5. Most people who are against
abortion will never even become
pregnant. If a law would never, in any
circumstance, apply to a man, a man
creating that law is preposterous. It is
akin to men creating laws that ban
women from voting, owning property,
or showing skin in public—only much
more deadly.
4. Women who are raped or victims of
incest should not be forced to carry
out a pregnancy. Odds are that 1 in 3
women will be victims of sexual
violence in her lifetime. Does this
mean that 33% of all women should
be forced to carry out a pregnancy
from this violation? Considering how
many people are killed during
childbirth (see #2), should we allow
this further risk to endured on top of
what has already been done?
Many would argue that these women
could endure the pregnancy,
spending nearly a year of her life
simply re-living the rape and its
effects over and over again, to give
up a baby at the end of it for
adoption. However, we all are aware
of the fact that there are millions of
unwanted children awaiting adoption
as we speak who remain unclaimed;
in fact, UNICEF estimates that there
are 210 million orphans in the world
right now. If they have no one willing
to be their parent or guardian, why
would another baby have a better
chance?
My theory is that people who spend
so much time, energy, and money on
anti-abortion campaigns should
instead spend it on the precious
children they say need saving so
much—the ones who are alive and
parentless. Imagine if all the funds
spent on all those billboards and
flyers and campaigns were instead
either spent adopting or donating to
places that are overrun with orphaned
children… perhaps some actual
credibility would be given to these
people who claim to love children so
much.
Also, there is the fact of the matter of
the more than one million homeless
youth in America alone. The number
one factor for a child being homeless
is physical or sexual abuse at home.
Perhaps these “child-lovers” should
step in and care for these already-
born children as well.
3. Reproductive choice can be the
only thing that stands between a
woman and poverty. There is a reason
that the 1 billion poorest people on
the planet are female. In sub-Saharan
Africa and west Asia, women typically
have five to six children, which
leaves them powerless to provide for
not only their own families, but
themselves.
2. Reproductive choice can be the
only thing that stands between a
woman and DEATH. Women who face
deadly consequences of a pregnancy
deserve to choose to live. Teen girls,
whose bodies are not yet ready for
childbirth, are five times more likely
to die. Not only do 70,000 girls ages
15-19 die each year from pregnancy
and childbirth, but the babies that do
survive have a 60% higher chance of
dying as well.
During my own pregnancy—which had
been unexpected though joyful up to
this point—I was horrified to learn
that I had preeclampsia only 25 weeks
in. While they were able to save both
my daughter and me, she was born at
1 pound, three months premature,
and was a medical miracle. Most
babies at that weight do not survive;
and if they do, they suffer severe
complications—as do the mothers,
including myself. I was then informed
that my risk of it happening all over
again was extremely high, and that if
there were a next time I may not be
so lucky. I am fortunate to have
access to birth control, but many
women—especially young ones—do
not. Preeclampsia alone affects 10 to
15% of all women! There are hundreds
of other complications that arise
besides preeclampsia that can, and
will, result in death as well.>
1. Doctors, not governments, should
always be the people to make medical
recommendations and opinions.
Would you allow the government to
tell you if you could have a kidney
transplant or a blood transfusion? Of
course not. The fact that we even
consider , let alone allow,
governments to regulate a medical
procedure is both illogical and
foolish.

[IAMWILL]

@Britishboy - please cite your sources (http://theidentityshift.com/answering-the-top-10-pro-choice-arguements-10/) when you post. Also it would be nice if you explained why you support these things instead of just copying and pasting from a website.

I will address each of these points in a few hours or tomorrow, I don't have the time right now.

[britishboy]

@Britishboy - please cite your sources (http://theidentityshift.com/answering-the-top-10-pro-choice-arguements-10/) when you post. Also it would be nice if you explained why you support these things instead of just copying and pasting from a website.

I will address each of these points in a few hours or tomorrow, I don't have the time right now.

are you against abortion, ie no choice?

[IAMWILL]

are you against abortion, ie no choice?

I suggest you read through the entire thread before asking me any questions - I think you'll find I have answered quite a lot of ones you may have already. -unnecessary comment removed. -Emerald Dream

[britishboy]

I suggest you read through the entire thread before asking me any questions - I think you'll find I have answered quite a lot of ones you may have already. -unnecessary comment removed. -Emerald Dream

your against peoples choice when its none of your business

[Harry Smith]

are you against about ie no choice?

ie isn't a word, so yeah there was a spelling mistake if your wondering

[britishboy]

ie isn't a word, so yeah there was a spelling mistake if your wondering

its just something you say same as etc

[teen.jpg]

It's totally is a woman's right. I don't see how a man can say anything, seeing as though we wouldn't be the one to carry it around for 9 months.

[Trenton_]

not even sure why we need abortions with so many contraception choices and the morning after pill.

Abortion is genetic selection for the stupid and lazy. They're purposely chucking their potential offspring so we don't have to live with the parents traits.

[Jess]

not even sure why we need abortions with so many contraception choices and the morning after pill.

Abortion is genetic selection for the stupid and lazy. They're purposely chucking their potential offspring so we don't have to live with the parents traits.

Abortion should still remain a choice (and legal).

[Trenton_]

Abortion should still remain a choice (and legal).

That's fine. I'll stand by my statement: Abortion is genetic selection for the stupid or lazy.

If someone wants an abortion they're pretty stupid or lazy or both.

[Jess]

So you would call a 13-year old who got raped and became pregnant stupid and/or lazy for getting an abortion? Or a woman who had to get one because of health complications?

[superstarB]

It should be there for the people who want it

[Jess]

It's totally is a woman's right. I don't see how a man can say anything, seeing as though we wouldn't be the one to carry it around for 9 months.

I agree :yes: I wouldn't want to go through 9 months of pain just to give birth when I don't even want to...

[Trenton_]

So you would call a 13-year old who got raped and became pregnant stupid and/or lazy for getting an abortion? Or a woman who had to get one because of health complications?

Not for health complication, so I guess I should add the word "generally" before my statement.

The raped girl? Yup! Stupid or lazy take your pick. If you get raped take the Plan B pill and you won't need an abortion.

[PinkFloyd]

Each person is entitled to their own choice when it comes to their body...

[Emerald Dream]

If this is going to turn into a grammar and spelling class, then I am going to consider it off-topic and I will be locking it.

Grow up a little, please.

[IAMWILL]

Each person is entitled to their own choice when it comes to their body...

If you do not mind answering,

Question A: Do you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is only a part of the mother and not its own separate being?

Question B: If you believe that the embryo/fetus/baby is a separate being, do you believe it is fully a human being?

Question C: If you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is a human being, do you believe it should have the same rights as an adult human being?

[Bethany]

I agree :yes: I wouldn't want to go through 9 months of pain just to give birth when I don't even want to...

Exactly. I don't think a lot of anti-choice men understand the challenge of pregnancy and birth, and how traumatic this can be if the baby is unwanted or a result of rape.

Not for health complication, so I guess I should add the word "generally" before my statement.

The raped girl? Yup! Stupid or lazy take your pick. If you get raped take the Plan B pill and you won't need an abortion.

That is downright ridiculous. Plan B pills are NOT 100% effective.

[Ace of Spades]

If you do not mind answering,

Question A: Do you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is only a part of the mother and not its own separate being?

Question B: If you believe that the embryo/fetus/baby is a separate being, do you believe it is fully a human being?

Question C: If you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is a human being, do you believe it should have the same rights as an adult human being?

By your logic, there should be a law against men masturbating because every sperm has the potential for a life.

[Sugaree]

By your logic, there should be a law against men masturbating because every sperm has the potential for a life.

What the fuck, that's not going by his logic at all. He's talking after fertilization has occurred, not before.

[Ace of Spades]

What the fuck, that's not going by his logic at all. He's talking after fertilization has occurred, not before.

So as soon as an egg is fertilized it becomes a self-sustaining, independent, intelligent life? I don't think it works that way.

[AMGForever]

By your logic, there should be a law against men masturbating because every sperm has the potential for a life.

but he mostly talking about the baby itself

So as soon as an egg is fertilized it becomes a self-sustaining, independent, intelligent life? I don't think it works that way.

you're right but i'm a little curious that it is


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[IAMWILL]

So as soon as an egg is fertilized it becomes a self-sustaining, independent, intelligent life? I don't think it works that way.
You're defining a human being based on their dependence level. By your definition, I am not a human being. I am not self-sustaining or independent, I thoroughly rely on other people for the resources I need to survive and so does pretty much all of humanity. A fertilized egg is more dependent on outside sources for its livelihood than just about any person outside of a patient on life support, but that level of dependence does decide whether or not it is not a human being.

[Ace of Spades]

You're defining a human being based on their dependence level. By your definition, I am not a human being. I am not self-sustaining or independent, I thoroughly rely on other people for the resources I need to survive and so does pretty much all of humanity. A fertilized egg is more dependent on outside sources for its livelihood than just about any person outside of a patient on life support, but that level of dependence does decide whether or not it is not a human being.

You are a human being based on my definition because your body has or had the capability of functioning on its own. i.e. respiration, consumption of energy, consciousness, etc...
A fertilizad egg does cannot respirate and it doesn't have consciousness.

[britishboy]

So you would call a 13-year old who got raped and became pregnant stupid and/or lazy for getting an abortion? Or a woman who had to get one because of health complications?
someone with a brain:)

Not for health complication, so I guess I should add the word "generally" before my statement.

The raped girl? Yup! Stupid or lazy take your pick. If you get raped take the Plan B pill and you won't need an abortion.
so if your wife is ill and the only way to save her is abort your baby you wouldn't? you dont even want the option? and if a girl is raped she might not know shes pregnant, and she might not want to tell her parent and how eles will she get the morning after pill?

[PinkFloyd]

If you do not mind answering,

Question A: Do you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is only a part of the mother and not its own separate being? yes

Question B: If you believe that the embryo/fetus/baby is a separate being, do you believe it is fully a human being? no

Question C: If you believe an embryo/fetus/baby is a human being, do you believe it should have the same rights as an adult human being? Honestly, no.
Let me give you some background info, as those answers sounded pretty bad on my part.
Okay, If I were to get my girlfriend pregnant, I would take responsibility to raise the baby with or without her. Im talking about abortion being okay when a mother gets pregnant that can't afford to support the child. That's my opinion.

[britishboy]

abortion really should be a womens right, I personally hate the idea, but what women do is none of my business, those who are against abortion are horrible and preventing a womans right that has nothing to do with them

[Trenton_]

someone with a brain:)


so if your wife is ill and the only way to save her is abort your baby you wouldn't? you dont even want the option? and if a girl is raped she might not know shes pregnant, and she might not want to tell her parent and how eles will she get the morning after pill?

For medical reason, i've already said that's fine. The girl you describe falls under stupid if you don't know you could be pregnant and won't tell your parents. And HEY! I didn't say I was against it. Never did! Just saying that:

"Generally abortion is for stupid or lazy people self imposing genetic selection of their bad traits".

Weeding out the stupid and lazy people over time is probably a good thing.



Exactly. I don't think a lot of anti-choice men understand the challenge of pregnancy and birth, and how traumatic this can be if the baby is unwanted or a result of rape.



That is downright ridiculous. Plan B pills are NOT 100% effective.

[Gigablue]

You're defining a human being based on their dependence level. By your definition, I am not a human being. I am not self-sustaining or independent, I thoroughly rely on other people for the resources I need to survive and so does pretty much all of humanity. A fertilized egg is more dependent on outside sources for its livelihood than just about any person outside of a patient on life support, but that level of dependence does decide whether or not it is not a human being.

An embryo doesn't have the potential to live on its own in the same way that you do. You depend on others financially and socially, but not biologically. An embryo depends biologically on the mother. Since the personhood of the embryo is debatable at best, while that of the mother is undeniable, the mothers rights trump those of the embryo.

An embryo lacks the characteristics of a human being. It can't think, feel, or have emotions. It isn't even conscious. Yes, it does have the potential to become a human being, but so do egg and sperm cells. Going by your logic, killing eggs or sperm is also murder, since, though they aren't as close to being human as an embryo, they still have the potential to become human.

[IAMWILL]

You are a human being based on my definition because your body has or had the capability of functioning on its own. i.e. respiration, consumption of energy, consciousness, etc...
A fertilizad egg does cannot respirate and it doesn't have consciousness.
Well I'm glad you consider me a human being, but lets not forget that your definition of a human being isnt the definition used by medical professionals.

An embryo doesn't have the potential to live on its own in the same way that you do. You depend on others financially and socially, but not biologically. An embryo depends biologically on the mother. Since the personhood of the embryo is debatable at best, while that of the mother is undeniable, the mothers rights trump those of the embryo.

An embryo lacks the characteristics of a human being. It can't think, feel, or have emotions. It isn't even conscious. Yes, it does have the potential to become a human being, but so do egg and sperm cells. Going by your logic, killing eggs or sperm is also murder, since, though they aren't as close to being human as an embryo, they still have the potential to become human.
The characteristics you use to justify why an embryo is not a human also qualify for patients in consistent vegetative states. Would you say that they also do not have the same rights as a human being that is currently fully functional? Embryos are genetically unique, they metabolize nutrients, grow rapidly, in 9 months will live outside the womb, and in about 13 years will be able to reproduce. Embryos are ceetianly human too - they will never develop into other animals or something else. Just because it has not developed certain functions that you or I possess does not mean it is not human. You're basing whether or not it is human on its development, not on what it actually is.

Please point out in my logic where I said killing sperm and eggs cells is murder. Sperm and eggs cells will never on their own become human beings, the require each other to do that.

[Gigablue]

The characteristics you use to justify why an embryo is not a human also qualify for patients in consistent vegetative states. Would you say that they also do not have the same rights as a human being that is currently fully functional?

Yes. If someone is in a persistent vegetative state they don't have any consciousness, can't feel and can't think. If they have no chance of recovery, than I don't think they should be kept alive.

Embryos are genetically unique, they metabolize nutrients, grow rapidly, in 9 months will live outside the womb, and in about 13 years will be able to reproduce. Embryos are ceetianly human too - they will never develop into other animals or something else. Just because it has not developed certain functions that you or I possess does not mean it is not human. You're basing whether or not it is human on its development, not on what it actually is.

Your basing your definition on potential. An embryo does have the potential to become a human being, but at the time when most abortions are performed, it simply isn't one.

Please point out in my logic where I said killing sperm and eggs cells is murder. Sperm and eggs cells will never on their own become human beings, the require each other to do that.

An embryo doesn't become human on its own either. It depends on the mother for life.

Also, if you have a sperm and an egg, together they have the potential to become a human life. I see little difference between a sperm and egg on their own and an embryo. Both have the potential to become human, but at present aren't.

[IAMWILL]

Clearly this argument has come down to whether or not an embryo is a human being. For the record, I believe/will argue that an embryo is a human being.

Yes. If someone is in a persistent vegetative state they don't have any consciousness, can't feel and can't think. If they have no chance of recovery, than I don't think they should be kept alive.
Okay.

Your basing your definition on potential. An embryo does have the potential to become a human being, but at the time when most abortions are performed, it simply isn't one.

I admit, the part about being born and reproducing were looking too far ahead, based on potential if you must. But the essential bits I mentioned about metabolizing nutrients, being genetically unique, and being only human are what makes the embryo a human being, and those aren't potential events, they begin happening from conception.

An embryo doesn't become human on its own either. It depends on the mother for life.

Also, if you have a sperm and an egg, together they have the potential to become a human life. I see little difference between a sperm and egg on their own and an embryo. Both have the potential to become human, but at present aren't.
I think you misunderstood me. When I said a sperm and egg cell on their own, I meant literally completely separated from each other. A sperm cell will never become a human being on its own (this would be a terrible problem for teenage boys if this was the case), and an egg cell will never become a human being on its own.

Just wondering, since you do not consider an embryo a human being, at what point do you believe the "blob of tissue" or whatever you prefer to refer to it as does become a human being?

[Jevon]

I think that the parents or female who is pregnant should be able to do whatever she wants so yes it should be able to be an option

[HahaWaitWhat]

I'm against abortion. It's not the parents choice once there is an unborn life at stake. If you don't want the baby, there's always adoption. Same with babies conceived through rape, the baby shouldn't be punished for that cruel persons deeds.

[Harry Smith]

I'm against abortion. It's not the parents choice once there is an unborn life at stake. If you don't want the baby, there's always adoption. Same with babies conceived through rape, the baby shouldn't be punished for that cruel persons deeds.

It's not about the logistics, it's about the fact that it is the mothers choice. Why should the mother have to live with the shame for 9 months when carrying a rape baby. What if she doesn't want to have the stigma of it for the rest of her life? What if she's still in school? You have no right to impose your will on someone else just because by your definition it's not the parents choice

[Sugaree]

It's not about the logistics, it's about the fact that it is the mothers choice. Why should the mother have to live with the shame for 9 months when carrying a rape baby. What if she doesn't want to have the stigma of it for the rest of her life? What if she's still in school? You have no right to impose your will on someone else just because by your definition it's not the parents choice

Yet, if she didn't want to "have the stigma of it for the rest of her life", she could give it up for adoption to parents who will be more than happy to take care of it.

[britishboy]

Yet, if she didn't want to "have the stigma of it for the rest of her life", she could give it up for adoption to parents who will be more than happy to take care of it.

what about if the mothers life is in danger, and only can be saved by aborting the foetus

[IAMWILL]

what about if the mothers life is in danger, and only can be saved by aborting the foetus

That situation is morally permissible in the eyes of almost all ethicists (and religions for that matter) because the intention is to save the mother, not kill the baby. The baby's death is a foreseen consequence of the medical procedure, but it is not intended. If nothing was to be done, both would die. This is a very rare case though.

[Gigablue]

I admit, the part about being born and reproducing were looking too far ahead, based on potential if you must. But the essential bits I mentioned about metabolizing nutrients, being genetically unique, and being only human are what makes the embryo a human being, and those aren't potential events, they begin happening from conception.

All living things metabolize and are genetically unique. That doesn't make them human. The only traits I specifically care about are mental ones, since those are what set humans apart from the rest of living things.

I think you misunderstood me. When I said a sperm and egg cell on their own, I meant literally completely separated from each other. A sperm cell will never become a human being on its own (this would be a terrible problem for teenage boys if this was the case), and an egg cell will never become a human being on its own.

Consider the following situation: An egg and a sperm are put in a Petri dish even though they haven't joined yet, they have the potential to. If someone throws out the Petri dish, did they kill a human?

Just wondering, since you do not consider an embryo a human being, at what point do you believe the "blob of tissue" or whatever you prefer to refer to it as does become a human being?

An embryo doesn't have the traits of a human. While we don't know exactly when a fetus gains the ability to feel pain, it is estimated at about 28 weeks. There is no evidence that fetus think in the same way we do.

Even at birth, the baby lacks many of the aforementioned traits. The reason I think a neonate is very different than a fetus is that it no longer needs the mother to survive. With a fetus, the mothers rights trump those of the fetus.

In short, I think the fetus becomes unarguably a human being at birth. In the weeks before birth, I think a case could potentially be made, especially after the fetus has a good chance of surviving outside of the womb. However, the time when nearly all abortions are performed is several months before I would even consider calling the fetus a person.

[General Stark]

No, we should not have abortions in most cases. I think that if the mother's life is at stake then an important decision needs to be made on which life to take and which life to keep, because either way you're practically choosing who to murder. This is, of course, if it is inevitable that the mother will die if the choice is to keep the child.

[Mob Boss]

I, personally, would never have one under any circumstances. Do I think it's right? No. But who am I to tell someone else what they can and can't do? It does, however, get under my skin when people think they can be careless and just go out and get an abortion. It's one thing to truly have an accident or not be financially stable enough or be raped, it's another to be too lazy to use a form of contraceptive and just rely on an abortion later on down the road as if it's a morning-after pill.

[Bethany]

I, personally, would never have one under any circumstances. Do I think it's right? No. But who am I to tell someone else what they can and can't do? It does, however, get under my skin when people think they can be careless and just go out and get an abortion. It's one thing to truly have an accident or not be financially stable enough or be raped, it's another to be too lazy to use a form of contraceptive and just rely on an abortion later on down the road as if it's a morning-after pill.

Why does this bother you?

[Mob Boss]

Why does this bother you?

I never said abortions should be illegal. I understand people make mistakes. I understand some can't afford a child. I understand being raped and wanting one. What I don't understand are people that use abortion as if it's the morning-after pill. Such as:
"You wanna have sex?"
"Yeah."
"Do you have condoms?"
"No."
"It's fine, I'll get an abortion."
That's what I don't understand. That isn't okay - it's irresponsible and careless.

[britishboy]

I never said abortions should be illegal. I understand people make mistakes. I understand some can't afford a child. I understand being raped and wanting one. What I don't understand are people that use abortion as if it's the morning-after pill. Such as:
"You wanna have sex?"
"Yeah."
"Do you have condoms?"
"No."
"It's fine, I'll get an abortion."
That's what I don't understand. That isn't okay - it's irresponsible and careless.

I agree its bad but its not irresponsible as they can get rid of the child and its not careless either and a fetus is not a baby, so its not killing its just terminating the pregnancy so it dosent really matter

[Fanta_Lover44]

It's really a matter of what the woman wants to be fair, if she thinks a abortion is right. Leave it down to her.

[tovaris]

up to a certan age of the fetus

[Unique Physique]

The state - nor any other human being for that matter - has no right to tell me what I do with what is essentially part of my body for 9 months. Yes, I understand the argument that it's another "life", but common sense and morality dictates that the welfare of the mother overrides that of the potential life. The reason behind the pregnancy is actually irrelevant. Whether it was due to a rape or forgetting to use contraception.

Whether it's legal or not, abortion is here to stay. If a girl or woman isn't getting one from a clinic, then she'll be buying dodgy pills off the internet or using a wire hangar.

[LuciferSam]

I can understand it if there is a legit medical reason, like if the mother's life is in danger, but I don't see why it should be legal to have an abortion just because the baby would be an inconvenience. Putting the child up for adoption would fulfil a missing aspect of another's life, and it would not kill anything!

BTW: a foetus IS living. maybe not on the same level as you or I, but anything with functioning biological systems and dividing cells is alive

[Harry Smith]

I can understand it if there is a legit medical reason, like if the mother's life is in danger, but I don't see why it should be legal to have an abortion just because the baby would be an inconvenience. Putting the child up for adoption would fulfil a missing aspect of another's life, and it would not kill anything!

BTW: a foetus IS living. maybe not on the same level as you or I, but anything with functioning biological systems and dividing cells is alive

so when your stomach acid kills bacteria is that murder? When you take a prebiotic which helps probiotic grows which then in turn help fight off infection is that helping murder

[LuciferSam]

so when your stomach acid kills bacteria is that murder? When you take a prebiotic which helps probiotic grows which then in turn help fight off infection is that helping murder

The foetus is not infecting your body with potentially dangerous micro-organisms. And I already made the exception for if the mother's life is in danger.

[Jess]

I can understand it if there is a legit medical reason, like if the mother's life is in danger, but I don't see why it should be legal to have an abortion just because the baby would be an inconvenience. Putting the child up for adoption would fulfil a missing aspect of another's life, and it would not kill anything!

BTW: a foetus IS living. maybe not on the same level as you or I, but anything with functioning biological systems and dividing cells is alive

The woman should always have the choice of an abortion. It needs to remain legal and safe, otherwise desperate women would go back to doing the dangerous methods. And I believe the adoption system isn't the best; aren't there already tons and tons of children waiting to be adopted?

A fetus may be living but it's not a person and its "rights" shouldn't trump over a woman's.

EDIT: Also, just because you (in general, not you you) believe abortion is not right, doesn't give you the right to make the decision for a woman

[LuciferSam]

The woman should always have the choice of an abortion. It needs to remain legal and safe, otherwise desperate women would go back to doing the dangerous methods. And I believe the adoption system isn't the best; aren't there already tons and tons of children waiting to be adopted?

A fetus may be living but it's not a person and its "rights" shouldn't trump over a woman's.

EDIT: Also, just because you (in general, not you you) believe abortion is not right, doesn't give you the right to make the decision for a woman

You make a good point, but I just feel that killing is wrong unless it's to protect another life. I know I can't back this up with facts, but this is just how I feel.

[Gigablue]

You make a good point, but I just feel that killing is wrong unless it's to protect another life. I know I can't back this up with facts, but this is just how I feel.

It's fine to feel that way, as long as you don't try to use that as a justification for any sort of legislation. We need more than vague feeling as a basis for our laws. You can have whatever opinion you want as long as you don't try to encroach on the rights of others.

[TheDeepestDepths]

You make a good point, but I just feel that killing is wrong unless it's to protect another life. I know I can't back this up with facts, but this is just how I feel.

I feel much the same as you. Personally I would never abort a baby unless the pregnancy would end both mine and the baby's life. As a mother, my first responsibility would have to be my children, even children not born yet, and even at the cost of my own life.

I believe that the moment of conception is the moment the two cells become a person, but at the same time I realize that not everyone shares this view. On this grounds legislation against abortion is interfering with a woman's right to have full control over her body.

[Harry Smith]

I feel much the same as you. Personally I would never abort a baby unless the pregnancy would end both mine and the baby's life. As a mother, my first responsibility would have to be my children, even children not born yet, and even at the cost of my own life.

I believe that the moment of conception is the moment the two cells become a person, but at the same time I realize that not everyone shares this view. On this grounds legislation against abortion is interfering with a woman's right to have full control over her body.

So then by your theory when someone ejaculates it's murder because the cell has already gone through the process of Mitosis in order to divide and have specialized roles

[kenoloor]

So then by your theory when someone ejaculates it's murder because the cell has already gone through the process of Mitosis in order to divide and have specialized roles

genocide, actually.

[Harry Smith]

genocide, actually.

sorry yes it is in fact genocide

[TheDeepestDepths]

So then by your theory when someone ejaculates it's murder because the cell has already gone through the process of Mitosis in order to divide and have specialized roles

No, that's not what I was saying at all. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my meaning. In my personal opinion a person's life begins when a sperm joins with an egg and embeds itself into the wall of the uterus. This is when it starts to grow and develop into a human being.

A sperm is just a cell just as an egg is just a cell. If I took the logic that you are a murderer just because you ejaculate then every woman is a murderer for not getting pregnant every time she ovulated. It's a ridiculous stance to take.

[Harry Smith]

No, that's not what I was saying at all. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my meaning. In my personal opinion a person's life begins when a sperm joins with an egg and embeds itself into the wall of the uterus. This is when it starts to grow and develop into a human being.

A sperm is just a cell just as an egg is just a cell. If I took the logic that you are a murderer just because you ejaculate then every woman is a murderer for not getting pregnant every time she ovulated. It's a ridiculous stance to take.

exactly, I was being sarcastic to show how stupid your argument is, at fertilization the cell has even specialized yet, it has no Independent thoughts, it has no needs for food or minerals, it can't survive on it own. It is an extension of the mother, you can think of it as a life all you want but that's not going to change anything is it?

[badthoughts]

what is essentially part of my body for 9 months.
Sounds like a parasite, maybe like a tick or a liver fluke. I suppose that train of thought makes it much easier to pluck out the little blood-sucking devil and deposit it in the trash.

Also, I'm in favor of the wire hanger method. Wire hangers are versatile contraptions and are even reusable. Someone gets prego multiple times a year because she can't keep her legs shut? No problem, just take an overcoat off its hanger, hike up a leg and scrape out everything from the uterus. Problem gets solved, coat gets rehung, and the little jezebel can resume her promiscuous ways. Everybody wins.

[SniperKing]

I feel we should have them, as bad as they are.

[Caldwell]

Of course they should be legal. Outlawing them isn't going to stop them from taking place, it's just going to force women who want them into having extremely dangerous back-alley abortions that might result in their death.

[britishboy]

Of course they should be legal. Outlawing them isn't going to stop them from taking place, it's just going to force women who want them into having extremely dangerous back-alley abortions that might result in their death.

agreed, we all go on about how great it is that we live in free countries so why limit abortions?