Explain

[likemike]

Why dont we take north korea seriously but countries without a strong government, powerful allies or nuclear weapons(all of which north korea has ) like iran and other middle eastern countries are huge threats.
Share your thoughts:yes:

[JoeHillsTSD]

We go and take out places that cause an actual threat. North Korea really doesn't cause a threat for the the US. Plus, NK has been stalling for a bit now. If it was going to launch nuclear weapons, it would have done so

[gamerdudeW]

those crazy dictators usually are power hungry, and at one time or another, usually once to take on the big countries such as ours. What history has proven is that the more attention you give to a crazy maniac, the more they like to roar and make noise. But Im sure he will get taken out like the rest....all in due time.

[Korashk]

Those countries aren't huge threats. Idiots just think they are, and they have oil.

[Jay1]

Why dont we take north korea seriously but countries without a strong government, powerful allies or nuclear weapons like iran and other middle eastern countries are huge threats.
Share your thoughts:yes:

I'm guessing because North Korea don't have any money - even though their leaders are madmen without money there's a limit to the harm they can do.

Iran/Iraq etc could be a much more serious threat as they have oil revenue which they could use to develop very serious weapons.

[kayleethegray]

North Korea has NO allies. Also, we aren't in the middle east because they have nuclear warheads, alot of countries do. We are there to help fight Al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

[xmojox]

North Korea has NO allies. Also, we aren't in the middle east because they have nuclear warheads, alot of countries do. We are there to help fight Al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

I'm pretty sure that America and allies invaded Iraq this last time just because the Bush Administration falsified intelligence and lied to the American people and our allies saying that there were WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction) in Iraq. This was subsequently proven to have been false, as none whatsoever were found.

China is North Korea's ally, even though they don't appear to be supportive of this latest round of saber-rattling.

[Jay1]

China is North Korea's ally, even though they don't appear to be supportive of this latest round of saber-rattling.

What possible train of thought would lead you to believe China is North Korea's ally?

And before you say "you remind me of somebody" - you remind me of somebody too ;)

[xmojox]

What possible train of thought would lead you to believe China is North Korea's ally?

And before you say "you remind me of somebody" - you remind me of somebody too ;)

Possibly because China is North Korea's ally?

[Jay1]

Possibly because China is North Korea's ally?

What has China done to make you think that?

This might be a difficult question for you but if North Korea and USA declared war who's side do you think China would be on?

[xmojox]

So in Jonathan World China isn't North Korea's ally?

[Emerald Dream]

This might be a difficult question for you
So in Jonathan World

Let's debate without the personal attacks, please.

[Jess]

Possibly because China is North Korea's ally?

I'm pretty sure you are correct. China is North Korea's ally.

[xmojox]

Let's debate without the personal attacks, please.

It wasn't intended as a personal attack. In this world, China is North Korea's ally.

[Emerald Dream]

It wasn't intended as a personal attack. In this world, China is North Korea's ally.

It's unnecessarily sarcastic.

[Jay1]

So in Jonathan World China isn't North Korea's ally?

Jonathan world is the rest of the world outside midwest USA in this case

1/ North Korea has been making very threatening noises recently - have you heard China (their ally) back them up?

2/ As my earlier question - if North Korea attacked the USA who's side do you think China would be on?

China is absolutely not North Korea's ally.

[xmojox]

It's unnecessarily sarcastic.

Sorry I didn't realize sarcasm was agsinst the rules.

[Jay1]

Sorry I didn't realize sarcasm was agsinst the rules.

Don't worry I'm not going to be offended by sarcasm. Hopefully you won't be either.

So what's your answers to the 2 questions above?

[Emerald Dream]

Sorry I didn't realize sarcasm was agsinst the rules.

Speaking to other members in which you infer their opinions mean less than yours, or that you are superior to them...is against the rules.

If you believe someone is wrong then that's fine to tell them you disagree. But we don't take little shots at them, even if they are just a few little words. It's insulting. Make your point without getting personal.

Eta: and I don't care if the other person is ok with it. I'm not, and others reading this may not be as well.

[xmojox]

I withdraw

[Jay1]

Speaking to other members in which you infer their opinions mean less than yours, or that you are superior to them...is against the rules.



Be fair to the guy - he's a liberal 14 year old guy with an IQ the rest of us can only dream about. His mindset is anyone who disagrees with him is by definition stupid.

I personally think better to let him try and debate and show himself up with statements such as China is North Korea's ally.

Leave the guy alone Allison please :)

[Emerald Dream]

Let's move along.

It sure seems that in the past China has been allied with North Korea, but it's hard to say nowadays. They are keeping pretty quiet about what NK is doing right now and don't seem to be supporting them. So yeah, I think there is doubt there.

[Jay1]

They are keeping pretty quiet about what NK is doing right now and don't seem to be supporting them. So yeah, I think there is doubt there.

I think that's a very astute observation :)

Still would be interesting to hear why anybody thinks China and North Korea are allies

[Stronk Serb]

If a war will happen, I support NK, no offence but the US imperialism should be stopped. It tore my country apart, it tore Iraq apart, Afghanistan etc. The fact that the majority of thr Americans voted for imperialist assholes who are trying to fill their pockets is pretty sad. They are saying that they are "helping" other people. If they did care about humanity, they would not let their own people starve and suffer first, and then try to ACTUALLY fix other countries problems, not worsen them. North Koreans are not starving. Kim is a bit crazy, but intelligent, North Koreans did not poke their nose around asking for trouble, they have been to themselvesand no one hates them, while the US has been in more armed conflicts in the past 100 years then North Korea in let's say 300-400 years, IDK maybe a century less and almost one third of the world hates tthe US for poking where they should not. Your government have been essentialy pissing on him, trying to piss him off so that he attacks first, and then the US moves and bombs North Korea and says they brought more peace by war, yet again.

[Stronk Serb]

I think that's a very astute observation :)

Still would be interesting to hear why anybody thinks China and North Korea are allies

Since they are pro-communist countries? Even during the Soviet Union, communist countries (with the exception of Yugoslavia) were banded together forming the Eastern Bloc. Why not still continue co-operating just like they were during the time of the USSR?

[Jay1]

Since they are pro-communist countries? Even during the Soviet Union, communist countries (with the exception of Yugoslavia) were banded together forming the Eastern Bloc. Why not still continue co-operating just like they were during the time of the USSR?

Are you serious?

China has moved on somewhat, they're not very communist now. Whatever you think of China they're not exactly backing North Korea now :)

[Bethany]

China wouldn't ally with North Korea. China has been telling NK to back off, and if China sided with NK, it would be China and NK against the world, which could be devastating for China

[xmojox]

Be fair to the guy - he's a liberal 14 year old guy with an IQ the rest of us can only dream about. His mindset is anyone who disagrees with him is by definition stupid.

I personally think better to let him try and debate and show himself up with statements such as China is North Korea's ally.

Leave the guy alone Allison please :)

Perform this google search "China North Korea allies" and just scroll down the first page of results.

And I thought we weren't supposed to make personal attacks.

Where were you on this one Emerald Dream?

[Jay1]

Perform this google search "China North Korea allies" and just scroll down the first page of results.

And I thought we weren't supposed to make personal attacks.

Where were you on this one Emerald Dream?

Do you read/watch the news? If so you will have heard North Korea have been causing a bit of trouble recently - do you hear their ally China backing them up?

Don't worry about personal attacks, if I make any I'm sure you're big enough to handle them without hiding behind Allison.

[xmojox]

Do you read/watch the news? If so you will have heard North Korea have been causing a bit of trouble recently - do you hear their ally China backing them up?

Don't worry about personal attacks, if I make any I'm sure you're big enough to handle them without hiding behind Allison.

Don't believe I said China was in accord with North Korea's actions the past few weeks. As recently as February, they were. All I said is that they're allies, and they have been since Chairman Mao.

[Jay1]

Don't believe I said China was in accord with North Korea's actions the past few weeks. As recently as February, they were. All I said is that they're allies, and they have been since Chairman Mao.

OK so when you said China and North Korea are allies (present tense) you actually meant they were allies - past tense

Do you think China and North Korea are allies now/today?

[xmojox]

OK so when you said China and North Korea are allies (present tense) you actually meant they were allies - past tense

Do you think China and North Korea are allies now/today?

I'm not sure we're using the same definition of ally. It's possible for two nations to be allied without one automatically jumping onto the saber-rattling bandwagon of the other. China and North Korea have been and continue to be allies.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Why dont we take north korea seriously but countries without a strong government, powerful allies or nuclear weapons like iran and other middle eastern countries are huge threats.
Share your thoughts:yes:

North Korea won't harm us because we have a more massive army (still even if they brainwash their citizens into service) also, more special operations forces than any other country in the WORLD. Even China might have some trouble, if they actually gave any fucks. We also might be helped by countries like Japan, Canada, and MAYBE even the UK.

[Jay1]

I'm not sure we're using the same definition of ally. It's possible for two nations to be allied without one automatically jumping onto the saber-rattling bandwagon of the other. China and North Korea have been and continue to be allies.

Totally different definitions it seems - I wouldn't like an ally by your definition.

Point being China and North Korea did share some common goals but China has moved on, North Korea has not moved on thus they have no friends left.

Maybe we can put it down to language differences but I would not describe China and North Korea as allies by any stretch of the imagination today.

[xmojox]

Totally different definitions it seems - I wouldn't like an ally by your definition.

Point being China and North Korea did share some common goals but China has moved on, North Korea has not moved on thus they have no friends left.

Maybe we can put it down to language differences but I would not describe China and North Korea as allies by any stretch of the imagination today.

No, I don't think it's a language difference. I just think there's a tendency to automatically assume a military alliance when someone uses the word "ally". I'm allied with friends, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna jump into a fight one of them starts by being stupid.

Actually now, China has committed to helping bring about nuclear disarmament in North Korea. That doesn't mean they aren't still North Korea's friend, only that they have good sense.

[Andy daMuzak mAn]

Maybe they are allies but China doesn't want us destroyed or they lose over a billion dollars that they loaned us plus a lot of other products we buy by the millions. I think China is playing both sides of the field.

[kayleethegray]

Guys, North Korea has no allies. They've made a name for the country as being the most isolated in the world. They have only kept diplomatic relations with Russia and China. China will not become allies with North Korea. The US owes China billions of dollars, if they fight against us, there's almost no way in hell they would ever get that money back. Also, their economy would plummet without the US importing all the stuff China sells. Thus, I only see a potential problem if Russia decides to ally with North Korea, because they have the man power and fire power to bring the world into World War 3, which would be either nuclear or possibly even biological. We know that Russia has the power to take out major US cities, sea to shining sea, while North Korea has nothing to really back up their threats. That's the only way I see these desperate cries for attention from North Korea become dangerous to anyone.

Also, if North Korea somehow has the power to attack US soil, without being stopped, I hardly think US would fight back with nuclear warheads, we would bomb them and have heavy military presence, we're too deep into it with Japan and South Korea to have the radiation potentially cause harm to our allies.


To OP: I am lead to believe the US is more freaked out over the Middle East because we like oil, and don't like people attacking because we're capitalist swine. The Middle East has terrorists and crude oil.

[Sugaree]

Why dont we take north korea seriously but countries without a strong government, powerful allies or nuclear weapons like iran and other middle eastern countries are huge threats.
Share your thoughts:yes:

I think it's mostly racial stereotypes. Asians are usually cast out as timid while Middle Eastern folk are often thought of as radical. It can also be the fact that Iran has a shit ton of oil and North Korea has...nothing.

[likemike]

North Korea has NO allies. Also, we aren't in the middle east because they have nuclear warheads, alot of countries do. We are there to help fight Al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

What about china, they backed north korea in the korean war

[kayleethegray]

What about china, they backed north korea in the korean war

That was in the past, China no longer is officially allied, they just have some strong diplomatic relations. However, those may be broken because China is pretty unimpressed with North Korea as far as I've read into it.

[xmojox]

That was in the past, China no longer is officially allied, they just have some strong diplomatic relations. However, those may be broken because China is pretty unimpressed with North Korea as far as I've read into it.

China and North Korea have a treaty that was renewed in the early 2000s and doesn't expire until the early 2020s. They are allies. Whether China would back North Korea if it came to a war is another matter entirely, they are, however, bound by treaty to do so.

[kayleethegray]

China and North Korea have a treaty that was renewed in the early 2000s and doesn't expire until the early 2020s. They are allies. Whether China would back North Korea if it came to a war is another matter entirely, they are, however, bound by treaty to do so.

I've been taught that a treaty is a promise not to attack each other, and an alliance is if you get attacked, we'll help you fight back. (If that's wrong, please explain what they are), so China and North Korea have a treaty, which means they aren't supposed to attack North Korea. They do not have an alliance, so they also wouldn't attack the US alongside North Korea.

[xmojox]

I've been taught that a treaty is a promise not to attack each other, and an alliance is if you get attacked, we'll help you fight back. (If that's wrong, please explain what they are), so China and North Korea have a treaty, which means they aren't supposed to attack North Korea. They do not have an alliance, so they also wouldn't attack the US alongside North Korea.

A treaty is just a formal agreement between two or more governments. It can be a non-aggression treaty, a mutual defense treaty, a trading treaty, or anything else the parties wish. China and North Korea do, in fact, have a mutual defense treaty. I'm not sure of the name of the treaty, but I'm fairly certain the treaty addresses mutual defense, trade, and non-aggression. A google search should prove helpful. If you can't the information, I'd be more than willing to help.

Edit: In fact, here ( http://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/china_dprk.htm) is the treaty.

[Jay1]

No, I don't think it's a language difference. I just think there's a tendency to automatically assume a military alliance when someone uses the word "ally". I'm allied with friends, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna jump into a fight one of them starts by being stupid.

Actually now, China has committed to helping bring about nuclear disarmament in North Korea. That doesn't mean they aren't still North Korea's friend, only that they have good sense.

Sorry for late response.

Different interpretations I suppose. I would take the word to mean ally to mean military alliance, especially at the moment when the only reason anyone cares about NK is because they're being threatening in a military sense.

Being cynical I think China would be happy to have a military alliance with North Korea if it was purely against South Korea but China certainly doesnt want trouble with the USA :)

[xmojox]

Sorry for late response.

Different interpretations I suppose. I would take the word to mean ally to mean military alliance, especially at the moment when the only reason anyone cares about NK is because they're being threatening in a military sense.

Being cynical I think China would be happy to have a military alliance with North Korea if it was purely against South Korea but China certainly doesnt want trouble with the USA :)

No, I'm sure they don't. It'd financial suicide for them. Frankly, I don't believe that China would back them militarily, even though they have a valid treaty saying they will.

[Jay1]

No, I'm sure they don't. It'd financial suicide for them. Frankly, I don't believe that China would back them militarily, even though they have a valid treaty saying they will.

well I wouldn't trust the word of the Chinese.

So are we agreed North Korea and China are not actually allies in any sense that matters to the rest of the world?

[xmojox]

well I wouldn't trust the word of the Chinese.

So are we agreed North Korea and China are not actually allies in any sense that matters to the rest of the world?

There is that treaty...it all depends on how China would decide to react, honestly. Should Bejing feel bound by the letter of the treaty, they would become militarily involved. We really can't predict the stance China would take should North Korea actually do something, and I seriously doubt that North Korea will.

Edit: I posted a link to the treaty in post #43 of this thread.

[Jay1]

There is that treaty...it all depends on how China would decide to react, honestly. Should Bejing feel bound by the letter of the treaty, they would become militarily involved. We really can't predict the stance China would take should North Korea actually do something, and I seriously doubt that North Korea will.

I think we can predict the Chinese stance - North Korea were a friend but they're not any more. The Chinese don't care what's written on a treaty their interest is looking after themselves.

I would worry about NK doing "something" cos they have nothing to lose at this point. Question would be how much of a "something" could they do.

[xmojox]

I think we can predict the Chinese stance - North Korea were a friend but they're not any more. The Chinese don't care what's written on a treaty their interest is looking after themselves.

I would worry about NK doing "something" cos they have nothing to lose at this point. Question would be how much of a "something" could they do.

My understanding is that among China's chief concerns is destabilization of their border with North Korea and a massive influx of North Korean refugees into northeastern China should the current regime be umm...changed. If they're worried enough about that, they may possibly choose to honor the standing treaty. Also in their own better interest.

[Jay1]

My understanding is that among China's chief concerns is destabilization of their border with North Korea and a massive influx of North Korean refugees into northeastern China should the current regime be umm...changed. If they're worried enough about that, they may possibly choose to honor the standing treaty. Also in their own better interest.

I'd disagree with you on that point - the Chinese would have "ways" of dealing with an influx of people. Of course they might not admit to those ways in polite circles.

Whatever we think of the Chinese they are a very astute people - they'd love North Korea to weaken South Korea because SK is doing very well. For all their strengths the Chinese have never been able to equal say Samsung.

Now/today the Chinese are distancing themselves from NK because NK are an embarrassment. Like you or I might distance ourself from a friend who got drunk at a party and made a total fool of themself. At some stage friendship has to end.

[xmojox]

There's a ton of interesting stuff about Chinese-North Korean relations and about northeast Asia in general here ( http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north-korea-relationship/p11097).

[Jay1]

There's a ton of interesting stuff about Chinese-North Korean relations and about northeast Asia in general here ( http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north-korea-relationship/p11097).

Look at the first line of that
"China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner, "

No argument there. Is North Korea China's biggest trading partner? Obviously not. Difference in the word partner.

I'd assume at some stage China would look to take over North Korea - obviously via diplomatic rather than military means

[xmojox]

Look at the first line of that
"China is North Korea's most important ally, biggest trading partner, "

No argument there. Is North Korea China's biggest trading partner? Obviously not. Difference in the word partner.

I'd assume at some stage China would look to take over North Korea - obviously via diplomatic rather than military means

Keep reading....

[Jay1]

Did you have a point ^

[Hunter_Steel]

China and North Korea are allies.

America and Russia are also allies, via trade. Unlike Israel and America are military allies.

Since America and Russia are trade allies, Russia won't stand up to help America if a war happened and America won't stand up to help Russia if a war broke out.

China has by far the world's largest army, look at these stats:

Military age 18–49
Conscription None enforced
Available for
military service 385,821,101 males, age 16–49 (2010 est),
363,789,674 females, age 16–49 (2010 est)
Fit for
military service 318,265,016 males, age 16–49 (2010 est),
300,323,611 females, age 16–49 (2010 est)
Reaching military
age annually 10,406,544 males (2010 est),
9,131,990 females (2010 est)
Active personnel approximately 2,285,000 (ranked 1st)
Reserve personnel 800,000
Deployed personnel Overseas: ~300 anti-pirate personnel in Somalia
Paramilitary: approximately 1,500,000
Total: 4,585,000~ (ranked 6th)

Here's their budget:

Budget US$114.2 billion (2013) (ranked 2nd)
Percent of GDP 1.46% (2012 est.)

Compared to America:

Military age 17 with parental permission, 18 for voluntary service. Maximum age for enlistment is 42 for the Army, 28 for the Marines, 34 for the Navy and 27 for the Air Force.[1]
Available for
military service 73,270,043 males, age 18–49 (2010 est.),
71,941,969 females, age 18–49 (2010 est.)
Fit for
military service 60,620,143 males, age 18–49 (2010 est.),
59,401,941 females, age 18–49 (2010 est.)
Reaching military
age annually 2,161,727 males (2010 est.),
2,055,685 females (2010 est.)
Active personnel 1,429,995 (ranked 2nd)
Reserve personnel 850,880 (ranked 10th)

Who's Budget is:
udget $554.2 billion + $88.5 billion(FY13) (1st by total expenditure, 11th as percent of GDP)
Percent of GDP 4.9% (2011 est.)

Compared to North Korea:
Conscription 17 years of age
Available for
military service 6,515,279 males, age 11-104 (2010 est.),
6,418,693 females, age 11-104 (2010 est.)
Fit for
military service 4,836,567 males, age 11-104 (2010 est.),
5,230,137 females, age 11-104 (2010 est.)
Reaching military
age annually 207,737 males (2010 est.),
204,553 females (2010 est.)
Active personnel 1,106,000 (ranked 5th) (2010)
Reserve personnel 8,200,000 (2010) (ranked 1st)

And their Budget:
Budget ~$10 billion[3][4][5]
Percent of GDP ~25.0%

Currently, China and Korea make up two VERY large militaries vs the US. In the current state of the US. Both of those countries could just walk over America. This is why the world should take North Korea seriously. If NK and China turn out to be military allies that made a secretive alliance (this has happened with military powerhouses in the past). The US would be in very big trouble indeed if NK makes the first strike.

~Hunter

[Jay1]

Currently, China and Korea make up two VERY large militaries vs the US. In the current state of the US. Both of those countries could just walk over America. This is why the world should take North Korea seriously. If NK and China turn out to be military allies that made a secretive alliance (this has happened with military powerhouses in the past). The US would be in very big trouble indeed if NK makes the first strike.

~Hunter

Several things wrong with that analysis
1/ China have no interest in a military alliance with NK today
2/ NK can't make a first strike against the USA
3/ The size of army is irrelevant. Even if China and NK team up how do you think they'd get all their troops to the USA?

Reasons above are why NK is not being taken seriously :)