US Gun Laws

[Ajmichael]

Now, before I begin, this thread is open to EVERYONE on VT, regardless of country of origin. Comments that are abusive or negative are NOT WELCOME. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Now, the US has had a lot of incidents recently involving firearms, including several mass shooting in recent months. So what do people think should happen in the US with regards gun laws? Any facts and figures used as part of an argument will be greatly appreciated.

[PinkFloyd]

I am a big gun person, so taking them would be horrible... I think security should be raised up. Like metal detectors in ALL highschools in the United States. There would also be armed guards with Sub Machine guns like the MP5 to protect against people from breaking in through a glass door or window and terrorizing -- like what happend on Friday, December 14th, 2012.

[Ajmichael]

It's interesting to see that you think essentially militarising schools will help, however what do you do about public shootings? Like at the cinema a few months prior to the school shooting?

Not that I don't disagree with your solution, but personally I believe it is a way of addressing one part of the problem rather than the problem as a whole. A bit like changing the headlight bulb on a car who's engine won't turn over, yes, you have a lovely working light, but the car still doesn't work. (An awful analogy, but I hope you see my point.

[Professional Russian]

It's interesting to see that you think essentially militarising schools will help, however what do you do about public shootings? Like at the cinema a few months prior to the school shooting?

the only to make less gun violence it arm more law abiding citizens. GUN BANS DONT WORK when will people learn that. they are so fucking easy to get illegally...... come to think about i have a debate about the second amendment tomorrow in government class......i shall watch this thread closely....very closely

I am a big gun person, so taking them would be horrible... I think security should be raised up. Like metal detectors in ALL highschools in the United States. There would also be armed guards with Sub Machine guns like the MP5 to protect against people from breaking in through a glass door or window and terrorizing -- like what happend on Friday, December 14th, 2012.

Ok now i think your insane. your worse than me. I would never say to give people in school an MP5 jesus christ. what if said cop gets shot? then the criminal shooting up the school has the full auto MP5 what do you do now? sit back while the whole school gets massacred?

[Ajmichael]

GUN BANS DONT WORK

Actually, a mass shooting in Australia in 1996 resulted in a ban on certain firearms unless they were specifically for sport or hunting (quite a large part of Australian culture, especially in rural areas). As a result of this ban, there has been no mass shooting in Australia since, compared to several in America. (I'm sorry, I don't know the exact number, but there have been several in the last few months alone). And overall, the amount of gun crime has dropped significantly.

[Professional Russian]

Actually, a mass shooting in Australia in 1996 resulted in a ban on certain firearms unless they were specifically for sport or hunting (quite a large part of Australian culture, especially in rural areas). As a result of this ban, there has been no mass shooting in Australia since, compared to several in America. (I'm sorry, I don't know the exact number, but there have been several in the last few months alone). And overall, the amount of gun crime has dropped significantly.

You cant get them as easily in Australia as you can in the US. Its is extremely easy to get illegal weapons. even fucking cops sell illegal weapons. so its extremely easy

[Ajmichael]

I'd like to refer you to this source, and actually, it is very difficult to get illegal firearms in Australia, and they are certainly not sold by Police.

http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/assets/pdfs/Other-Research/2006InjuryPrevent.pdf

I recommend you read it thoroughly before posting again, as the language you're using is not beneficial and you are so far failing to add much to the debate.

[Professional Russian]

I'd like to refer you to this source, and actually, it is very difficult to get illegal firearms in Australia, and they are certainly not sold by Police.

http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/assets/pdfs/Other-Research/2006InjuryPrevent.pdf

I recommend you read it thoroughly before posting again, as the language you're using is not beneficial and you are so far failing to add much to the debate.

Thats what i said. i was talking about in the US..... Read my sentence before you say something. it says it is not as easy to get illegal weapons in Australia as it is in the US

[Ajmichael]

Sorry, yes, I misread your insightful comment. Perhaps you'd like to offer a solution rather than argue against what others have suggested?

[Professional Russian]

Sorry, yes, I misread your insightful comment. Perhaps you'd like to offer a solution rather than argue against what others have suggested?

Force of habit

[xmojox]

I posted this to another similar thread, and it is still my stance on this issue. Please read it here ( http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2187308&postcount=36).

[Ajmichael]

That is an interesting point, but is it not true that most Americans are killed by their own firearm in their own home? Personally, I see no reason to carry a firearm in public, and no reason to possess one beyond using it for sport or hunting. But should there not be restrictions on who can own firearms, for instance, people with criminal records or mental health problems?

[Erasmus]

One of the biggest problems I have with this issue is why does anyone need an automatic or semi-automatic, machine gun, like an AR-15? There's no possible justifiable reason for anyone except the police or military to own one!

Also, the fact that so many guns are able to be bought without any background checks at all is ridiculous. Nothing is stopping someone who has been convicted of murder, or someone who is mentally unstable, from buying a gun.

Also, what is more important: the right to own guns, or the rights of people not to be shot? I mean, the American fixation with guns is absolutely ridiculous.

[Harry Smith]

A very interesting point that I saw raised by a Michael Moore documentary called Bowling for Columbine which states that the problem could be the actual social fabric of america. For example it raised the point that Canada has a very large amounts of guns yet they have a much lower murder rates relating to firearms. That's why the most important thing to do in the Gun Control debate is to make sure that these social needs are met to stop the crimes that are committed by criminals using firearms. Saying that I still believe that there is a need for some sort of Legislation to help control the types gun but I know that there is very strong opposition to this.

As to the Point of armed guards in schools I really think it's to far. Firstly it shows our children that they have to be raised in a closed society where even a sanctuary for education isn't safe. We are trying to educate children saying how they should respect each other yet when they walk through the gates they see an armed guards. Also having armed guards will not be full proof and they will require state or Federal Funding, which means cutting Funding from other sectors or taking away funding from areas of education.

Also look at Britain, we had Dunblane. A 43 with legally owned Pistols killed 12 school children, under British Law he was able to purchase both the guns and ammunition. Yet after this massacre we didn't place armed guards in school or arm teachers. We banned all handguns apart from Historical and Breach loading pistols. There hasn't been another firearms attack since- it worked for us

[Professional Russian]

A very interesting point that I saw raised by a Michael Moore documentary called Bowling for Columbine which states that the problem could be the actual social fabric of america. For example it raised the point that Canada has a very large amounts of guns yet they have a much lower murder rates relating to firearms. That's why the most important thing to do in the Gun Control debate is to make sure that these social needs are met to stop the crimes that are committed by criminals using firearms. Saying that I still believe that there is a need for some sort of Legislation to help control the types gun but I know that there is very strong opposition to this.
I still need to see that i havent gotten around to it yet
As to the Point of armed guards in schools I really think it's to far. Firstly it shows our children that they have to be raised in a closed society where even a sanctuary for education isn't safe. We are trying to educate children saying how they should respect each other yet when they walk through the gates they see an armed guards. Also having armed guards will not be full proof and they will require state or Federal Funding, which means cutting Funding from other sectors or taking away funding from areas of education.
I like the idea. We protect our president with guns, our congressmen with guns, every other political figure with guns but our children get a sign that doesnt mean shit to most people
Also look at Britain, we had Dunblane. A 43 with legally owned Pistols killed 12 school children, under British Law he was able to purchase both the guns and ammunition. Yet after this massacre we didn't place armed guards in school or arm teachers. We banned all handguns apart from Historical and Breach loading pistols. There hasn't been another firearms attack since- it worked for us
You dont have millions upon millions of guns floating around. If you ban handguns people would still get them through private sales and illegally obtaining them.

[Taryn98]

I've stated my opinion on this many times here so it's no secret about my thoughts. I didn't post in this thread to really be involved in the discussion because it never changes anyone's mind. Nobody here has an open mind on this issue.
What bothers me in general is that we all hear about these horrible crimes when they happen and everyone wants new gun laws but when someone stops a crime or saves a life using a gun it is never reported and you seem to hear nothing.
Tell the people in these links that guns should be taken away:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/06/travis-trenard-harris-shot_n_3028034.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/16/charlie-blackmore-marine-veteran-draws-gun_n_2891176.html

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/

http://rense.com/general76/univ.htm

[Ajmichael]

You dont have millions upon millions of guns floating around. If you ban handguns people would still get them through private sales and illegally obtaining them.

But a ban on handguns would mean that private sales became illegal? Much like a no-longer issued currency, the now illegal weapons would filtre out of the system, and with the proper enforcement, this could be sped up.

[Southside]

Not every gun owner is going to shoot up a school or mall, thats what the media makes it seem like every gun owner is a mass murdered. When I think about the average gun owner, I think about a 70 year old man who lives alone who has a gun for protection. Come on, if a person is in your house, your not gonna shoot them?

[Southside]

One of the biggest problems I have with this issue is why does anyone need an automatic or semi-automatic, machine gun, like an AR-15? There's no possible justifiable reason for anyone except the police or military to own one!

Also, the fact that so many guns are able to be bought without any background checks at all is ridiculous. Nothing is stopping someone who has been convicted of murder, or someone who is mentally unstable, from buying a gun.

Also, what is more important: the right to own guns, or the rights of people not to be shot? I mean, the American fixation with guns is absolutely ridiculous.

Ok...Average handgun carries 5-10 bullets, what if the intruders in your house are also armed? Do you know how long it takes for a person to reload a handgun? In those few seconds it takes for someone to reload their small handgun, they could well be dead by then. While a AR-15 on the other hand packs 20-30 bullets on average, and you dont have to worry about reloading.

[Professional Russian]

But a ban on handguns would mean that private sales became illegal? Much like a no-longer issued currency, the now illegal weapons would filtre out of the system, and with the proper enforcement, this could be sped up.

Yeah i just made an "Illegal sale" I just bought a taurus PT-101 off of one of my dads friends. Im not arrested yet why do you think they'll enforce it if they become illegal? hell i know cops that sell illegal guns.

Ok...Average handgun carries 5-10 bullets, what if the intruders in your house are also armed? Do you know how long it takes for a person to reload a handgun? In those few seconds it takes for someone to reload their small handgun, they could well be dead by then. While a AR-15 on the other hand packs 20-30 bullets on average, and you dont have to worry about reloading.

Depending on what handgun it has more rounds. such as the ever so popular Glock 19, 9MM, 15 Rd. Magazine 33 Rd. extended, 50 Rd. drum magazines aswell. most popular handguns hold just as much if not more than an AR-15

[Ajmichael]

Not every gun owner is going to shoot up a school or mall, thats what the media makes it seem like every gun owner is a mass murdered. When I think about the average gun owner, I think about a 70 year old man who lives alone who has a gun for protection. Come on, if a person is in your house, your not gonna shoot them?

Nope, I would avoid shooting them at all costs. If you threaten them with a gun, the chances are they'll leave. If you don't have a gun and they do? Let them take what they want and call the police. Everything should be covered by insurance.

[Harry Smith]

I still need to see that i havent gotten around to it yet

It's really good, I can't remember all the facts of it but it's also quite of a satire in parts

I like the idea. We protect our president with guns, our congressmen with guns, every other political figure with guns but our children get a sign that doesnt mean shit to most people

Who is going to pay for the Armed Guards? Education funding is also low enough as it is. Also yes you need to guard the President but your argument is a bit like saying if we have armed Guards ( and Military) for Fort Knox then we should have armed guards for the School dinner money. Almost none of these Guards has encountered or directly prevented a tragic school shooting. In fact, as the Secret Service found in 1999 after the Columbine High School shooting, most school shootings were ended by means other than law enforcement intervention. A school is supposed to be a place of learning and education, it's laughable that the US have to protect there schools with armed police, doesn't that show you something about the very fabric of your society?

You dont have millions upon millions of guns floating around. If you ban handguns people would still get them through private sales and illegally obtaining them.

haha the classic contraband argument, there's so much of it why should we ban it? Yes it's not a perfect system but it still requires a law so that you can live a society where it is safe to go to school. We managed to fix our gun problem by doing what 95% of the western world have - Limiting it

[Professional Russian]

Nope, I would avoid shooting them at all costs. If you threaten them with a gun, the chances are they'll leave. If you don't have a gun and they do? Let them take what they want and call the police. Everything should be covered by insurance.
Shoot First ask questions later



Who is going to pay for the Armed Guards? Education funding is also low enough as it is. Also yes you need to guard the President but your argument is a bit like saying if we have armed Guards ( and Military) for Fort Knox then we should have armed guards for the School dinner money. Almost none of these Guards has encountered or directly prevented a tragic school shooting. In fact, as the Secret Service found in 1999 after the Columbine High School shooting, most school shootings were ended by means other than law enforcement intervention. A school is supposed to be a place of learning and education, it's laughable that the US have to protect there schools with armed police, doesn't that show you something about the very fabric of your society?

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161601

haha the classic contraband argument, there's so much of it why should we ban it? Yes it's not a perfect system but it still requires a law so that you can live a society where it is safe to go to school. We managed to fix our gun problem by doing what 95% of the western world have - Limiting it
YOu cant take what we already have. the citizens will rebel you have realised that right?

[Ajmichael]

Of course people won't like it! But you, through what you have said, have demonstrated what is shared throughout humanity, a blindness to the benefits of a decision you don't like. Eventually, crime will drop, mass shootings will reduce and people won't think twice about having lost their right to certain firearms.

And that attitude of 'shoot first, ask questions later' is exactly what has given America a bad name throughout many countries in the world. It is exactly why many civilians are killed by American soldiers at war. Come to think of it, it is exactly the reason America has been behind several friendly-fire incidents in Afghanistan recently.

[Professional Russian]

Of course people won't like it! But you, through what you have said, have demonstrated what is shared throughout humanity, a blindness to the benefits of a decision you don't like. Eventually, crime will drop, mass shootings will reduce and people won't think twice about having lost their right to certain firearms.

And that attitude of 'shoot first, ask questions later' is exactly what has given America a bad name throughout many countries in the world. It is exactly why many civilians are killed by American soldiers at war. Come to think of it, it is exactly the reason America has been behind several friendly-fire incidents in Afghanistan recently.

But wait. Its in the constitution it cant be taken away....

[Ajmichael]

Ah, of course! Back to the 200 year old constitution argument... The constitution can be changed, and many countries do change their constitutions, as times change and the ideas of the world alter. I don't hear of people in Britain citing the Magna Carta every time someone tries to change it, in fact, all but three of the clauses within the Magna Carta have been repealed.

The Magna Carta of course being part of the UKs constitution...

[Professional Russian]

Ah, of course! Back to the 200 year old constitution argument... The constitution can be changed, and many countries do change their constitutions, as times change and the ideas of the world alter. I don't hear of people in Britain citing the Magna Carta every time someone tries to change it, in fact, all but three of the clauses within the Magna Carta have been repealed.

The Magna Carta of course being part of the UKs constitution...

Thats because you guys et the government control you. we left britian for a reason. and also a quote if another thread talking ab out the Bill Of Rights: It is guaranteed though. It's just up to us to make sure we keep our rights, and when we go picking and choosing which rights it's ok to lose and which ones It ok to get rid of, we're just making it easier for us to lose the ones we want. Suppose they start cutting off fingers and then next take the Second Amendment and decide to cut the fingers off the gun hands of chronic gun owners.

The Second Amendment is there to give us a way to deal with our own government taking away any of the rest of our rights. To surrender those rights willingly just means there's less reason for the Second Amendment.

[Ajmichael]

Yes, once again you have completely ignored what has been said and continued with pointless rhetoric... Perhaps you'd like to conceive a well established argument, or perhaps express an opinion how how the gun laws need to be changed?

If you were bothered to look anything up, you would find that Magna Carta is the document that essentially creates democracy and freedom from persecution, produced by the Barons who rose against the King on behalf of the people. Completely the opposite to what you claim it is.

[Professional Russian]

Yes, once again you have completely ignored what has been said and continued with pointless rhetoric... Perhaps you'd like to conceive a well established argument, or perhaps express an opinion how how the gun laws need to be changed?

They dont need changed. they need enforced.

[Cygnus]

I personally think that to change the gun laws you first have to change the mentality of the people, the chamber of .... something... is filled with war-addicted republicans, those need to be replaced. At least make SMGs and assault rifles not available to public, those are for military purposes. Guns do not make peace people, you do not need them.

[Professional Russian]

I personally think that to change the gun laws you first have to change the mentality of the people, the chamber of .... something... is filled with war-addicted republicans, those need to be replaced. At least make SMGs and assault rifles not available to public, those are for military purposes. Guns do not make peace people, you do not need them.

Very Very Very VERY few people have SMGs and Assualt Rifles. They are expensive and extremely rare and regulated by the BATFE (Bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms and explosives) they have major background checks to. they have it all.

[Ajmichael]

I would just like to point out to you, and hopefully close the argument, that Magna Carta is in-fact the antecedent of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

- Quod Erat Demonstrandum = they can be changed and repealed.

[Professional Russian]

I would just like to point out to you, and hopefully close the argument, that Magna Carta is infect the antecedent of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

- Quod Erat Demonstrandum = they can be changed and repealed.

>Makes Thread About Gun Laws
>Talks About How The Constitution Can Be Changed Instead

[Ajmichael]

Very Very Very VERY few people have SMGs and Assualt Rifles. They are expensive and extremely rare and regulated by the BATFE (Bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms and explosives) they have major background checks to. they have it all.

Actually, the ban on assault rifles expired in 2004. It has in some cases been found that it is easier to buy an automatic weapon in the US than a piece of French cheese.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/automatic-weapon-french-cheese-gun-control_n_1696200.html

[Professional Russian]

Actually, the ban on assault rifles expired in 2004. It has in some cases been found that it is easier to buy an automatic weapon in the US than a piece of French cheese.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/automatic-weapon-french-cheese-gun-control_n_1696200.html

Let me ask one question. Do you know the true definition of an assault rifle? and quickly to point how stupid that link is. They use a picture of guns in Call Of Duty. It was the Modern Warfare 2 list. Some of them dont even exist

[Ajmichael]

>Makes Thread About Gun Laws
>Talks About How The Constitution Can Be Changed Instead

Only because you did what a lot of Americans do when confronted with the truth, and that is essentially hide behind a sheet of paper...

[Ajmichael]

Let me ask one question. Do you know the true definition of an assault rifle? and quickly to point how stupid that link is. They use a picture of guns in Call Of Duty. It was the Modern Warfare 2 list. Some of them dont even exist

Yes, and it was the ban on assault rifles that expired in 2004, and the automatic weapons that are easier to get hold of than French cheese.

[DerBear]

Let me ask one question. Do you know the true definition of an assault rifle?

I don't think that has much to do with it.

Any automatic weapon can do considerable damage and has considerable range. I think the fact that people can pick up these weapons with some relative ease and use the for mass killings like we've seen in the USA just last year alone tells me that police and other military personal should be the only ones to have access to fire arms.

Plenty of countries don't allow citizens fire arms and they do just fine.

[Professional Russian]

Only because you did what a lot of Americans do when confronted with the truth, and that is essentially hide behind a sheet of paper...

Do you know why? That constitution guarantees our freedoms. That piece of paper lets us rebel against the government if they try to take over. it allows to defend ourselves. it allows to speak against the government. It allows us our natural freedoms which the government can not infringe on. You don't like that piece of paper? too bad its here to stay

Yes, and it was the ban on assault rifles that expired in 2004, and the automatic weapons that are easier to get hold of than French cheese.
Semi Automatic*
I don't think that has much to do with it.

Any automatic weapon can do considerable damage and has considerable range. I think the fact that people can pick up these weapons with some relative ease and use the for mass killings like we've seen in the USA just last year alone tells me that police and other military personal should be the only ones to have access to fire arms.

Plenty of countries don't allow citizens fire arms and they do just fine.
SO i cant have my 308, 300, 7mm, 243, 22, 22 hornet, 12 gauge, 20 gauge, 300 savage, and 44 to hunt with?


-double post merged. -Emerald Dream

[Ajmichael]

Do you know why? That constitution guarantees our freedoms. That piece of paper lets us rebel against the government if they try to take over. it allows to defend ourselves. it allows to speak against the government. It allows us our natural freedoms which the government can not infringe on. You don't like that piece of paper? too bad its here to stay

Did you actually look up Magna Carta? It essentially created democracy and guaranteed the people of England their freedom, but it still changed. Look it up, then comment on how the constitution is different,

[Professional Russian]

Did you actually look up Magna Carta? It essentially created democracy and guaranteed the people of England their freedom, but it still changed. Look it up, then comment on how the constitution is different,

The constitution was made 200 hundred years ago. it was meant to be a living document to be interpreted as we go. I dont think your Magna Carta is like that

[Ajmichael]

The constitution was made 200 hundred years ago. it was meant to be a living document to be interpreted as we go. I dont think your Magna Carta is like that

Still not looked it up have you?

[MrMundane]

the gun laws are a joke, i live in colorado so it is very common to have school shootings. No, people should not have assualt rifles and high capacity magazines. If the country clamped down on weapons of war or even pistols the police would just be carrying pistols or tazers.

I fucking hate these 1776 nuts that complain about the goverment taking over, you should be more worried about our economy and the declining eduction.

[Erasmus]

the gun laws are a joke, i live in colorado so it is very common to have school shootings. No, people should not have assualt rifles and high capacity magazines. If the country clamped down on weapons of war or even pistols the police would just be carrying pistols or tazers.

I fucking hate these 1776 nuts that complain about the goverment taking over, you should be more worried about our economy and the declining eduction.

Thank you. When people keep using this excuse that they need guns for when the government goes tyrannical is just plain stupid.

[Hunter_Steel]

You aint gonna change them, just like the American Constitution is Iron Clad, their mindset it Iron Clad. America is a free country as it was made nearly 200 years ago. The people who live there would rebel against their military and government if that freedom was taken away. That is why the American government hasn't changed the constitution, that is why Obama can never change it, they'll just assassinate him like the others.

America is a powerful nation because of its laws. Take them away, and you'll bring the country to its knees. I personally, am not an American, but I would hate to see that country brought to its knees. The people love firearms, let them have them. Just watch them closely, decide who can and cannot have firearms based on background checks.

But then again, the black market is also apparent. So yeah.

~Hunter

[Ryhanna]

I do think we need to at least attempt some sort of gun-control law. As Bert has stated, it's easy to get firearms through the black market, but it would be almost neglectful of the US government not to at least try such a law. Even if it doesn't end up working out, we need to see that they've made an effort, and then we can move on to finding a different possible solution.

Any conscious effort is better than sitting around making coffee. If we give the most obvious one a chance, and it doesn't work out, people will soon move on to finding a different solution.

[Professional Russian]

I do think we need to at least attempt some sort of gun-control law. As Bert has stated, it's easy to get firearms through the black market, but it would be almost neglectful of the US government not to at least try such a law. Even if it doesn't end up working out, we need to see that they've made an effort, and then we can move on to finding a different possible solution.

Any conscious effort is better than sitting around making coffee. If we give the most obvious one a chance, and it doesn't work out, people will soon move on to finding a different solution.

Presidents have tried. Clinton Tried and he passed his bill. Obama is trying but we got that crazy bitch Feinstein that wants "Mr. and Mrs. America to turn in their guns"

[Emerald Dream]

I have deleted the posts where it has gotten a little too personal.

Please debate the topic, and not take personal shots at another member.


Thread is now locked at OP request. :locked: