Catholic leadership doing some bad things? Your opinion?

[Stronk Serb]

Ok, many of you know that the Middle-ages Catholic church was a total circus. But after some history class where we studied the Yugoslav (Serbian for some extent, including post-capitulation resistance groups) involvement in WWII. A pro-nazi state called the Independent Croatian Country (or something like that, English translation of it is a pain) was formed led by Ante Pavelic. Along with the Jews who were sent to the concentration camp of Jasenovac, many Serbs were also, we were treated and oppressed just like the Jews, the Ustashas (how the Croatian army called themselves) were spending more time murdering civilians then fighting partisans or Chetniks. On many occassions, the Italian occupation forces intervened to stop the mas murders, since it would incite mass rebellion which would cause many unneeded casualties. And after the war was over, the Vatican arranged the whole political and military leadership (pretty much the same people were involved in politics and army leadership) to be shipped to South America and to evade trial. What do you think about this?

I do not hate the Croatians, after the war we built a great country, but 40 years after, both of us got madmen for leaders which made us pointlessly spill blood again. The Americans were involved in widening the gap around us also. After that civil war, there was no point to unite again, since after a couple of decades, we will still be fighting again...


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Harry Smith]

Yep, the Vatican and the Nazis party did have some pretty strong ties. Look at the concordant they signed in the 30's where the Catholics agreed to stay out of Politics if the Nazis stayed out of the Catholic church. Both groups were very anti-communist so they did have some middle ground.

As you mentioned the rat lines ( how war criminals escaped) that was nothing to do with the Vatican as such, it was more down to the local catholic church. That's the problem with bunching it, a catholic priest in America would say very different Rhetoric to a catholic priest in Italy.

[Stronk Serb]

Yep, the Vatican and the Nazis party did have some pretty strong ties. Look at the concordant they signed in the 30's where the Catholics agreed to stay out of Politics if the Nazis stayed out of the Catholic church. Both groups were very anti-communist so they did have some middle ground.

As you mentioned the rat lines ( how war criminals escaped) that was nothing to do with the Vatican as such, it was more down to the local catholic church. That's the problem with bunching it, a catholic priest in America would say very different Rhetoric to a catholic priest in Italy.

By some records, on his way to South America, Ante passed through Italy. There were happy reports from Croatian higher ranking priests (bishops and arch-bishops) that almost 30% of the Serbs have been "forcefully turned over", as part of Ante's policy which sounded: One third of the Serbs should be killed, one third exiled, and one third turned over to Catholicism. Of course, not all priests did now, it would cause a mass scandal. But the pope or some of the cardinals, especially those from countries which were German allies and Germany herself probably knew.

[Helena]

Ok, many of you know that the Middle-ages Catholic church was a total circus. But after some history class where we studied the Yugoslav (Serbian for some extent, including post-capitulation resistance groups) involvement in WWII. A pro-nazi state called the Independent Croatian Country (or something like that, English translation of it is a pain) was formed led by Ante Pavelic. Along with the Jews who were sent to the concentration camp of Jasenovac, many Serbs were also, we were treated and oppressed just like the Jews, the Ustashas (how the Croatian army called themselves) were spending more time murdering civilians then fighting partisans or Chetniks. On many occassions, the Italian occupation forces intervened to stop the mas murders, since it would incite mass rebellion which would cause many unneeded casualties. And after the war was over, the Vatican arranged the whole political and military leadership (pretty much the same people were involved in politics and army leadership) to be shipped to South America and to evade trial. What do you think about this?

I do not hate the Croatians, after the war we built a great country, but 40 years after, both of us got madmen for leaders which made us pointlessly spill blood again. The Americans were involved in widening the gap around us also. After that civil war, there was no point to unite again, since after a couple of decades, we will still be fighting again...


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

Sorry, but what does the church have to do with the Independent Croatian Country? What does this have to do with Catholic leadership?

The Catholic Church has done horrible things throughout history but that is not to say that they have not done any good. It was the Church who often setup hospitals, schools etc for people. It is not fair to judge the Church on only its wrongdoings.

[randomnessqueen]

i really like the current pope, and i think he is going to do some great things. he is really mixing things up and doing what a pope should really do but has never done. i find it funny that catholics are actually mad at him for not acting as high and mighty and living as luxuriously as they think he should, when actually everything he is doing is good and in the image of jesus' teachings.

[Stronk Serb]

Sorry, but what does the church have to do with the Independent Croatian Country? What does this have to do with Catholic leadership?

The Catholic Church has done horrible things throughout history but that is not to say that they have not done any good. It was the Church who often setup hospitals, schools etc for people. It is not fair to judge the Church on only its wrongdoings.

Did I state anywhere that I judge them? Here are the facts: some "employees" in Jasenovac were higher catholic priests who liked to take a knife and butcher a Serb or two from time to time. The pope knew it, but did not do anything about it. He actually supported them that way, by letting psychopath Ustasha scum to butcher Serbs, rape Serbian women and children. He gave them a meams of escaping, some of the Ustashas were caught by the DB (Yugoslavian equivalent of the MOSAD). Some died of old age, on large. What I asked were your OPINIONS. The Catholic church did reform and did good things, made libraries, hospitals etc. But that does not make an excuse to allow butcheries like Jasenovac and other camps.

i really like the current pope, and i think he is going to do some great things. he is really mixing things up and doing what a pope should really do but has never done. i find it funny that catholics are actually mad at him for not acting as high and mighty and living as luxuriously as they think he should, when actually everything he is doing is good and in the image of jesus' teachings.


Amen to that, Jesus taught us to be humble and not to act as if we were above some people.


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream