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WalkingOnDisaster
March 20th, 2013, 02:57 PM
DO YOU find the question, “Is God cruel?” shocking? Some do, but a lot of people today wonder whether God is cruel—or they assume that he is. Why?

Some who survive natural disasters ask: “Why does God allow these things to happen? Is he indifferent? Or is he cruel?”

Others are similarly troubled when reading the Bible. They come upon such accounts as the one about Noah and the Flood, and they wonder, ‘Why would a loving God put all those people to death? Is he cruel?’

Do such questions occur to you at times? Or do you find yourself unable to give an answer to those who wonder if God is cruel? In either case, consider a different question that may help.

WHY DO WE HATE CRUELTY?

Simply put, we hate cruelty because we have a sense of right and wrong. We differ greatly from animals in that respect. Our Creator made us “in his image.” (Genesis 1:27) What does that mean? He gave us the capacity to reflect his qualities and moral standards, his sense of right and wrong. Consider this: If we received our sense of right and wrong from God and we tend to hate cruelty, does that not suggest that God hates it too?

The Bible confirms such logic, for in the Bible, God assures us: “My ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:9) If we were to judge God to be cruel, would we not be stating the opposite—in effect saying that our ways are higher than his? It would surely be wise to gather more facts before taking such a stand. Perhaps we should ask, not whether God is cruel, but why some of his actions may appear to be cruel. To help us, let us consider what “cruel” really means.

When we call someone cruel, we judge his motives. A cruel person is one who enjoys seeing others suffer or who is indifferent to their distress. Thus, a father who disciplines his son because he enjoys hurting his son’s feelings is cruel. But a father who disciplines his son to instruct or protect him is good. Motives are easily misunderstood, as you well know if anyone has ever misjudged you.

Let us consider two of the reasons why some think of God as cruel—the natural disasters we see today and the divine judgments we read about in the Bible. Do the facts really show that God is cruel?


WHAT YOU MAY HEAR: “God rules the world, so he causes natural disasters; therefore, he must be cruel.”

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) Who is “the wicked one”? The Bible identifies him as Satan. (Matthew 13:19; Mark 4:15) Is that far-fetched? Think of this: If Satan has power over the world, then he influences humans to be as selfish, greedy, and shortsighted as he is. Would that not help to explain why man so badly mismanages his own environment on the earth? Many experts warn that mismanagement of the environment may play a role in natural disasters, whether by causing them, worsening them, or making human society more vulnerable to them.

Then why does God allow Satan to have so much influence? The answer goes back to the dawn of human history, when our first parents rebelled against God as Ruler. Most of mankind has followed the same course ever since. That choice—the rejection of the rule of God—has placed the world of mankind in the hands of God’s enemy, Satan. Jesus thus called Satan “the ruler of the world.” (John 14:30) Will Satan rule forever? No!

Jehovah * is not callously indifferent to the suffering that Satan causes. In fact, God is deeply moved by human suffering. For example, concerning the hard times that befell the nation of Israel, the Bible says of God: “During all their distress it was distressing to him.” (Isaiah 63:9) Mercifully, God has arranged to bring the cruel rule of Satan to an end—soon! He has appointed his Son, Jesus Christ, to be a just and righteous King forever.

HOW YOU ARE INVOLVED: Although Satan’s rule has failed to protect people from natural disasters, Jesus’ rule will do so. Jesus once acted to protect his disciples during a violent storm. The Bible account says: “He . . . rebuked the wind and said to the sea: ‘Hush! Be quiet!’ And the wind abated, and a great calm set in.” The disciples said: “Who really is this, because even the wind and the sea obey him?” (Mark 4:37-41) That incident gives us confidence that Jesus will protect all obedient mankind during his rule as King.—Daniel 7:13, 14.



^ par. 5 Jehovah is the name of God as revealed in the Bible.

TO ADDRESS this question, let us briefly focus on two examples of divine judgment in the Bible—the Flood of Noah’s day and the extermination of the Canaanites.


THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY


WHAT YOU MAY HEAR: “God was cruel when he unleashed a flood that destroyed all mankind except for Noah and his family.”

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS: God said: “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living.” (Ezekiel 33:11) So the destruction of the wicked in Noah’s day brought God no pleasure at all. Then why did he do it?

The Bible answers that when God brought such judgments against ungodly people in times past, he was “setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come.” (2 Peter 2:5, 6) What pattern did God set?

First, God established that even though it pains him to destroy people, he does take note of cruel people who cause suffering and holds them accountable for their actions. In time, he will end all injustice and suffering.

Second, the pattern of God’s past actions establishes that God lovingly warns people before executing judgment. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, but most people ignored him. The Bible says: “They took no note until the flood came and swept them all away.”—Matthew 24:39.

Has God held to that pattern? Yes. For example, he warned his people Israel that if they turned to wickedness as the nations around them had, he would allow enemies to invade their land; destroy their capital, Jerusalem; and carry them off into exile. Israel did turn to wickedness—even carrying out child sacrifice. Did Jehovah act? Yes, but only after sending prophets to warn his people, again and again, to change their ways before it was too late. He even said: “The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”—Amos 3:7.

HOW YOU ARE INVOLVED: The pattern we see in Jehovah’s past judgments gives us hope. We can confidently look forward to God’s judgment of those who cruelly cause suffering. The Bible says: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off . . . But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalm 37:9-11) What do you think about a judgment that relieves mankind of suffering? Is it cruel, or is it merciful?


THE EXTERMINATION OF THE CANAANITES


WHAT YOU MAY HEAR: “The destruction of the Canaanites was a cruel war crime comparable to modern-day genocides.”

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS: “All [God’s] ways are justice. [He is] a God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) An act of divine justice is not comparable to a human war. Why? Because unlike humans, God is able to read hearts—that is, what humans are on the inside.

For example, when God judged the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and determined to bring them to ruin, the faithful man Abraham was concerned about the justice of the matter. He could not imagine that his just God would “sweep away the righteous with the wicked.” Patiently, God reassured him that if there were even ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare the city on their account. (Genesis 18:20-33) Clearly, God searched through the hearts of those people and saw the depth of their wickedness.—1 Chronicles 28:9.

Similarly, God judged the Canaanites and rightly ordered their destruction. The Canaanites were notorious for their cruelty, which included burning children alive in sacrificial fires. * (2 Kings 16:3) The Canaanites knew that Jehovah had commanded Israel to take possession of all the land. Those who chose to remain and wage war were taking a deliberate stand against not only the Israelites but also Jehovah, who had given powerful evidence that he was with his people.

Moreover, God extended mercy to Canaanites who abandoned their wickedness and accepted Jehovah’s high moral standards. For example, the Canaanite prostitute Rahab was saved, along with her family. Also, when the inhabitants of the Canaanite city of Gibeon sought mercy, they and all their children were preserved alive.—Joshua 6:25; 9:3, 24-26.

HOW YOU ARE INVOLVED: We can learn a vital lesson from the judgment of the Canaanites. We are rapidly approaching the foretold “day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.” (2 Peter 3:7) If we love Jehovah, we will benefit when he eliminates human suffering by ridding the earth of those who reject his just rule.


The Canaanites were notoriously cruel, and they deliberately opposed God and his people

Jehovah lovingly reminds us that the choices parents make affect their children. God’s Word says: “You must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him.” (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Are those the words of a cruel God or the words of a God who loves people and wants them to make the right choice?




Will You Trust God?

PLAY





IMAGINE that you have a friend whom you admire greatly, but he does something that you cannot understand. Others criticize his action and judge his motives, saying that your friend is cruel. Would you be quick to agree with them, or would you wait to hear your friend’s side of the story? If he was not there to explain himself, would you be patient, giving him the benefit of the doubt?

Before answering, you might want to know more. You might ask, ‘How well do I really know this friend, and what basis do I have for admiring him?’ Fair enough. But consider: Can we not apply the same principles to this question of whether God is cruel?

You may find it hard to understand some of what God has done, or you might be puzzled by what he has allowed to happen. There are plenty of people who will tell you that God is cruel and who will urge you to judge his motives as they have. Will you extend him the benefit of the doubt until you know more? The answer may depend on how well you know God. Ask yourself, ‘What kind of a friend has God been to me?’

If your life has been difficult, you might be tempted to say that God has not been a friend at all. But think for a moment. Has God been responsible for the hardships in your life—or for the blessings? As we have seen, Satan is “the ruler of this world,” not Jehovah. (John 12:31) It is thus Satan who is behind much of the misery and injustice of this world. And would you not agree that our own imperfections and unpredictable circumstances cause many of our problems?


Has God been responsible for the hardships in your life—or for the blessings?

On the other hand, what has God been responsible for? Consider what the Bible says: that God is “the Maker of heaven and earth”; that his works include our physical bodies, which are “wonderfully made”; and that Jehovah is “the God in whose hand your breath is.” (Psalm 124:8; 139:14; Daniel 5:23) What does all of that mean?

It means that we owe our every breath, our very existence, to our Creator. (Acts 17:28) It means that the gift of life, the beauty of the world around us, the pleasures of love and friendship, the joys of taste, touch, sound, and smell—all of these are gifts from God. (James 1:17) Would you not agree that those blessings make him a Friend who is worthy of our esteem and trust?

Granted, you may find it hard to trust God. Perhaps you feel that you do not yet know him well enough to trust him. And that is understandable. In these brief articles, we cannot address all the reasons why some judge God as cruel. But would it not be worth the effort to get to know God better? * We are confident that as you do, you will come to know the truth about God. Is he cruel? Quite the opposite: “God is love.”—1 John 4:8.

Nellerin
March 20th, 2013, 03:50 PM
DO YOU find the question, “Is God cruel?” shocking? Some do, but a lot of people today wonder whether God is cruel—or they assume that he is. Why?



According to the Bible, God has killed thousands upon thousands of people just to prove a point. Is that cruel in modern society? Yes

Therefore God is cruel. Fact :yes:

WalkingOnDisaster
March 20th, 2013, 09:00 PM
According to the Bible, God has killed thousands upon thousands of people just to prove a point. Is that cruel in modern society? Yes

Therefore God is cruel. Fact :yes:

God does not kill people. The Devil kills people.

Taurus
March 20th, 2013, 09:33 PM
God does not kill people. The Devil kills people.

According to the bible, Satan has only killed 10 people

If everything happens according to your god's will, then your god is responsible for every single death that has ever occurred. If your god is not responsible for every single death that has ever occurred, then your god is not all powerful and is a pretty poor excuse for a supreme being.
On a side note, Lucifer (Satan) was the seal of perfection and of perfect beauty. Ezekiel 28:12-14


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

CharlieHorse
March 20th, 2013, 09:33 PM
I don't think that there is a god...
Cruelty is created by stubborn people, nothing more nothing less.
But yeah, cruelty sucks.

WalkingOnDisaster
March 20th, 2013, 09:37 PM
If everything happens according to your god's will, then your god is responsible for every single death that has ever occurred. If your god is not responsible for every single death that has ever occurred, then your god is not all powerful and is a pretty poor excuse for a supreme being.
On a side note, Lucifer (Satan) was the seal of perfection and of perfect beauty. Ezekiel 28:12-14

Ah I see where you're going with this... I do not feel comfortable pursuing this with you. I habe a sort of newfound belief in the bible and am not really ready to discuss this with you.

I'm sorry.

Cicero
March 20th, 2013, 09:39 PM
According to the Bible, God has killed thousands upon thousands of people just to prove a point. Is that cruel in modern society? Yes

Therefore God is cruel. Fact :yes:

God is not cruel. Cruel means willfully causing pain with no concern. God simply tests us.

Therefore God is not cruel. Fact :yes:

Taurus
March 20th, 2013, 09:41 PM
Ah I see where you're going with this... I do not feel comfortable pursuing this with you. I habe a sort of newfound belief in the bible and am not really ready to discuss this with you.

I'm sorry.

Ok. I'm not sure where you think I was going.

CharlieHorse
March 20th, 2013, 09:50 PM
Therefore God is not cruel. Fact

Fact is quite an odd term to use in this sort of situation...

Nellerin
March 20th, 2013, 10:01 PM
God does not kill people. The Devil kills people.

lolwut. You legit right now, I'm not religious at all yet know more than you. God explicitly kills tons and tons of people, even religious people agree.

Seriously, please learn a little about your religion and beliefs. Unless you came up with your own God?

Taurus
March 20th, 2013, 10:08 PM
God is not cruel. Cruel means willfully causing pain with no concern. God simply tests us.

Therefore God is not cruel. Fact :yes:

God witnesses atrocities and then chooses to do nothing either because of "humanity's free will" or because God is "testing us".
God knows that s/he could do something about it. S/he chooses not to. God is as guilty as the perpetrator of the crime.

As Martin Luther King, Jr. said: "The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people."

As Einstein said: "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

Cicero
March 20th, 2013, 10:22 PM
God witnesses atrocities and then chooses to do nothing either because of "humanity's free will" or because God is "testing us".
God knows that s/he could do something about it. S/he chooses not to. God is as guilty as the perpetrator of the crime.

As Martin Luther King, Jr. said: "The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people."

As Einstein said: "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."

Funny you quote King, cause he believed in God. King wasn't talking about God.

Taurus
March 21st, 2013, 12:53 AM
Funny you quote King, cause he believed in God. King wasn't talking about God.

I know MLK Jr. believed in God. I know he wasn't referring to God. But why should I pass up this wonderful opportunity to apply his words? Are you saying that because God is God, s/he is exempt from morality?
I also find it interesting that you couldn't find anything else in my argument to target.

Cicero
March 21st, 2013, 12:58 AM
I know MLK Jr. believed in God. I know he wasn't referring to God. But why should I pass up this wonderful opportunity to apply his words? Are you saying that because God is God, s/he is exempt from morality?
I also find it interesting that you couldn't find anything else in my argument to target.

Yeah, but MLK I'm sure wouldn't agree with you using his words to go against God, considering he was a pastor.

Taurus
March 21st, 2013, 01:08 AM
Yeah, but MLK I'm sure wouldn't agree with you using his words to go against God, considering he was a pastor.

And? Even if MLK Jr. didn't agree with me, the point isn't about who said it, the point is about what was said. The principle of standing up for your fellow human in the face of injustice is basic moral conduct. If humans have the capability for that simple moral guideline, then shouldn't your supreme god also have basic morals?

MrMundane
March 21st, 2013, 01:11 AM
If we were made in gods image then why do we protest cruelty? Cruelty is everywhere and in everything. I would consider it cruel that no one does anything about the rampid child molestation involved with the vatican. I would consider it cruel to demand faith and never hear a word back in return, just a bunch of bullshit messages people see in the world around them and then take it for god answering them. Modern society thinks it is better than our history of blood, war and cruelty that is ingrained into every story there is. Even fairytales, the original versions have been fluffed up for american children. Just take a look at some german "fairytales". Personal I believe God is vengeful and cruel beyond imagination. The way people die you'd think we were just a failed experiment.

Cicero
March 21st, 2013, 01:21 AM
And? Even if MLK Jr. didn't agree with me, the point isn't about who said it, the point is about what was said. The principle of standing up for your fellow human in the face of injustice is basic moral conduct. If humans have the capability for that simple moral guideline, then shouldn't your supreme god also have basic morals?

It's about free will, if you don't listen to him, and you do what you want. He will allow that. He didnt create us to be zombies or robots. He gave us the free will to do what we want. The devil basically owns the world, until Christ returns (Revelations), then that will mark Satans final days (figuratively speaking, it's actually years; Revelations).

In Christianity, Christ is the Shepard for his followers, if one strays, then he will bring them back to him. In Christianity (the faith, not religion like Catholicism), its a faith, you've either been a Christian since you accepted him, or you were never a Christian. For many Christians, there's no such thing as "I used to be a Christian" because The Holy Ghost was either in your heart the whole time (and still is) or The Holy Ghost was never in your heart, meaning, you never really had God.

God allows people to live their life how they want, if they make bad decisions that's life threatening, he'll either allow you to live through some miraculous way (like the show I Survived) or he will allow you to die. Disease and illness came into the world because of sin, Adam and Eve. I myself have a very terminal disease, so I especially have a right to speak about this (nothing like Type 2 Diabetes, because that's preventable with exercise and healthy eating, or nothing like Type 1 Diabetes or Asthma, because those are preventable, and when they are deadly, those situations can be avoided completely, whereas my disease is unavoidable and uncurable, you can only slow it for a small time).

Once Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple, they cursed the world with sin. Which caused death, disease/illness, painful birth (how it is now, whereas before it might've not been painful), etc.

Taurus
March 21st, 2013, 01:43 AM
It's about free will, if you don't listen to him, and you do what you want. He will allow that. He didnt create us to be zombies or robots. He gave us the free will to do what we want. The devil basically owns the world, until Christ returns (Revelations), then that will mark Satans final days (figuratively speaking, it's actually years; Revelations).

In Christianity, Christ is the Shepard for his followers, if one strays, then he will bring them back to him. In Christianity (the faith, not religion like Catholicism), its a faith, you've either been a Christian since you accepted him, or you were never a Christian. For many Christians, there's no such thing as "I used to be a Christian" because The Holy Ghost was either in your heart the whole time (and still is) or The Holy Ghost was never in your heart, meaning, you never really had God.

God allows people to live their life how they want, if they make bad decisions that's life threatening, he'll either allow you to live through some miraculous way (like the show I Survived) or he will allow you to die. Disease and illness came into the world because of sin, Adam and Eve. I myself have a very terminal disease, so I especially have a right to speak about this (nothing like Type 2 Diabetes, because that's preventable with exercise and healthy eating, or nothing like Type 1 Diabetes or Asthma, because those are preventable, and when they are deadly, those situations can be avoided completely, whereas my disease is unavoidable and uncurable, you can only slow it for a small time).

Once Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple, they cursed the world with sin. Which caused death, disease/illness, painful birth (how it is now, whereas before it might've not been painful), etc.

God could do somthing about all of that though. Instead s/he sits idly by while the world dies.
Given that God apparently put humanity on Earth, Godis like Jigsaw from the Saw movies, but with over seven billion victims.

Cicero
March 21st, 2013, 01:46 AM
God could do somthing about all of that though. Instead s/he sits idly by while the world dies.
Given that God apparently put humanity on Earth, Godis like Jigsaw from the Saw movies, but with over seven billion victims.

Great movie.

That's your opinion.

Taurus
March 21st, 2013, 02:08 AM
Great movie.

That's your opinion.

It is a reasonable comparison

MrMundane
March 21st, 2013, 04:52 PM
I was raised in a christian home and all I was ever told was I was never going to be good enough so try my hardest and ask for forgiveness. My entire life was limited by my faith simple because it defeated my will to live when everyone was just waiting to go to a better place. This world is fallen because we believe that this world doesn't really matter.
Do you really believe that there was no death and disease before the apple? Satan was the first angel, animals came before man. How did they live? Or was the world just frozen in time until adam and eve were cast out? Satan was corrupted apparently before man was made so how did one little apple change everything? Maybe we were just unaware of death before that point. Ever have times when you never notice events until someone else points them out? Then you realize how often that one event happens, you see it everywhere like a plague that spreads.

Cygnus
March 21st, 2013, 10:55 PM
I have a more darker view of the world, I believe that when times are desperate things like cruelty created by the right people are acceptable. No god can take decisions about punishment or rewards, that is decided either by nature (which is not controlled by any outside force) or by humans which are the most powerful things existent.

Korashk
March 21st, 2013, 11:27 PM
I was going to respond to the OP point-by-point, but then I realized that it was shamelessly copy/pasted (http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130501/why-people-say-god-is-cruel/), so instead I'll just address the gist.

First off it the author defines cruelty in a way that ONLY takes into account motive, which is simply a faulty way to gague what is and isn't cruel. Or rather, gage whether or not an action, as opposed to a person or entity is cruel. Is god cruel, maybe not. However, one cannot deny that god's actions, especially those in the old testament, were exceptionally cruel.

The author first mentions natural disasters, so meh. That isn't an interesting point so I'm gonna skip it. Although it is worth mentioning that punishing the entirety of humanity because of the actions of the very first one is cruel.

The second point mentioned is the flood during Noah's time, which is really when things start getting good. it is estimated that around the time the flood occurred the population of the earth was around 5,000,000 according to biblical scholars (I have no clue how they got that number, but whatever). Logically some of those 5,000,000 had to be children/infants.

So god just killed all these people for what? Being ungodly? God, if you wanted to force people to be godly maybe you shouldn't have given them "free will". What's the point in giving people "free will" if you're just going to kill them all for exercising it? That my friends is a prime example of cruelty in deed. It's undeniable.

The third thing he mentions is the Canaanites. Honestly, that was probably just a war. Not really cruel, but still a bit fucked up on God's part.

Then there are all the other despicable things that the god of the old testament did, like murdering all of the Egyptian firstborn children. That, in my eyes is the DEFINITION of cruelty. God sent plagues to Egypt in order to get the Pharaoh to free the Hebrew slaves, and when he tries to free them, God uses his power to force the Pharaoh to change his mind and proceeds to murder children.

Pretty awesome person your god claims to be, eh? According to numbers in the Bible god has killed around 2.5 people (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html)and that isn't even counting times when numbers aren't mentioned. If you tally all those up the number rises to ALMOST 25,000,000 dead by god's hand alone.

Someone earlier mentioned Satan killing 10 people. Yup, he did do that. But he only did it because god told him he could.

God is the most prolific mass murderer in history according to the very book that praises him. Note that I say murderer, because many of the people god killed were justifiably innocent of any wrongdoing.

CharlieHorse
March 22nd, 2013, 12:27 AM
What about Hindu gods?

Korashk
March 22nd, 2013, 07:53 AM
What about Hindu gods?
I'm sure some of them are assholes too.

StoppingTime
March 22nd, 2013, 03:03 PM
Just so everyone knows, the OP was copypasta'd (http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130501/why-people-say-god-is-cruel/)

Korashk
March 22nd, 2013, 03:12 PM
Just so everyone knows, the OP was copypasta'd (http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20130501/why-people-say-god-is-cruel/)
Beat ya to it.

Jah_Rastafari_
March 27th, 2013, 10:22 AM
God is not cruel. Cruel means willfully causing pain with no concern. God simply tests us.

Therefore God is not cruel. Fact :yes:
So let's say I put you and your family in a room with one exit. This exit is blocked by a single hungry bear.I tell you that it is your duty to escape from this room. So you attempt to escape, only to be mauled by this bear. Since I did not intend for this bear to hurt you, does this not make me cruel? I mean, after all, it was only a test.

MrMundane
March 28th, 2013, 03:30 AM
A test implies that there is a way to get out of the room

randomnessqueen
April 17th, 2013, 05:23 PM
i think the idea of a 'cruel' god kinda silly, and certainly egocentric.
because every aspect a 'cruelty' is based on society and individuals subjective ideals.
and further, in most religions its agreed that god is beyond the physical world, and wants for us to grow spiritually. why would he be bothered with our worldy pleasures?