Thoughts equal justice.

[anyone50]

Was watching the news this eveing and saw a story about two teen boys being sentenced in the rape of a 16 yearold girl in Ohio that was played out on the social media. The rape happened at a party and the 16 year old girl got drunk and from what i understand was so blitzed that she didn't remember anything the next morning except she woke up with no clothes on. The evidence that lead to the conviction was primarily from social media and posting of videos during the party. This really caught my attention because when i was 13 i expereinced something close to this. Part of me was glad to see that these guys were caught and and punished and another much smaller part made me think were these guys soley responsible for what happen. This is a question i still wrestle to this day and how much of what happen to me was my responsibility for getting drunk and letting this happen. I'm convinced that if she like me had not gotten blotto this tradgedy would never have happen. I have read a few post on here that bring up debate on this type of situation and just curious how others feel about this. Does the girl in a situation like this share in any of the responsibility of what happen that night. Part of me says yes and i guess thats the reason i never told anyone when it happened. Of a couple friends I confided in a few years later said it wasn't my fault and the put the blame on the guy. Any thoughts on this?

[xmojox]

Being blotto prevents you from being able to give informed consent, and, sex with anyone without his or her consent is rape. I do think you have the responsibility to yourself to avoid situations like that, though. If you must drink, do so responsibly and in moderation. I'm sorry that happened to you.

I didn't follow this case...are you saying that there were videos of these boys raping this girl?

[Human]

And to think everything would of been alright if they would of been more responsible with the drink...
Alcohol really changes people and I'm sure these two teenagers will regret what they did drunk for the rest of their lives

[anyone50]

And to think everything would of been alright if they would of been more responsible with the drink...
Alcohol really changes people and I'm sure these two teenagers will regret what they did drunk for the rest of their lives

I agree and hind sight is always 20/20 but i did learn a valuable lesson and it's always a reminder to me when I'm at a party where there is alcohol. I can't speak for the victim of this recent event in Ohio but i'm betting she is dealing with her own demons over this incedent and her desision to drink. It seems that the town has divided on this and the final count on the number of people that this one event will have an impact on has yet to be written. Besides the victim and the two teenagers convicted already two more girls were arrested today with the police promising many more arrest and prosections to come over this. Is this still justice when the end result is further pain for the victim and being ostracized by others?

[Prodigy17]

Does the girl in a situation like this share in any of the responsibility of what happen that night. Part of me says yes and i guess thats the reason i never told anyone when it happened.

Probably 2 answers to this

1/ you should never blame yourself in that situation. So you did something a bit silly but you obviously didn't want anything bad to happen to you. Once you blame yourself the guys get away with what they did because you don't tell anyone. That is wrong

2/ Hopefully you'd learn a lesson and next time you would be a bit more sensible. It would be nice if a woman could go out and get totally drunk and still be safe but we all know that isn't going to happen - guys being what they are.

[Jean Poutine]

It's not fair to put blame on a rape victim because she was drunk.

Everybody knows (or should know) drunk girls can't give consent. A smart/decent guy would never have sex with somebody who's not quite there. It's like forcing yourself on somebody who's passed out or asleep.

A shopkeeper isn't responsible if the item he held in full view of the customer was stolen. People can enjoy themselves - binge drinking probably isn't a good idea, though, just like people can sell shit, and it gives no one the right to take it without the expected repartee.

I would sooner hire an independent, regulated call-girl (so no pimp) for sex than to crawl bars to get a drunk girl to follow me. At least that way I conserve the moral high ground and avoid legal trouble.

[Prodigy17]

Everybody knows (or should know) drunk girls can't give consent. A smart/decent guy would never have sex with somebody who's not quite there.

But everyone also knows a drunk smart/decent guy does things he wouldn't do while sober.

If a drunk girl and a drunk guy are in the same room together who's going to come off worse?

[workingatperfect]

Maybe if it's like her first time having that much to drink or something, then it's not her fault, but if it were someone who had been that drunk before and knew that they didn't handle it well or didn't have much conrol when they drank that much, then yeah, I think they hold some of the blame, because they knowingly put themselves in an easily avoidable position where anything could happen. It was still rape and the guy still shouldn't have taken advantage of her, but she could have possibly avoided it if she was more responsible.

I don't know, if it was me, I'd probably just take responsibility for my own actions and say "Well, drunk-me clearly wanted to have sex, if I said yes and went with him." I'm not gonna blame him for that unless he was clearly taking advantage of me.

But everyone also knows a drunk smart/decent guy does things he wouldn't do while sober.

If a drunk girl and a drunk guy are in the same room together who's going to come off worse?

I kind of agree with what this guy is saying too. Say the guy was equally as drunk, whose fault is it then? She could just as easily been the one to take advantage of him, or maybe neither took advantage of the other.

Or like, what if she was on drugs, but not in an obvious way. This friend of a friend of a friend, etc. that I met once had sex with a guy while she was on some kind of pills. She had no clue what was going on apparently, but no one could tell she was under the influence of anything, she was acting totally normal. The guy that "raped" her had no idea that she wasn't sober. So, is this still rape? He thought he was having sex with a perfectly sober, consenting girl. It's not his fault in my eyes.

[Jean Poutine]

But everyone also knows a drunk smart/decent guy does things he wouldn't do while sober.

If a drunk girl and a drunk guy are in the same room together who's going to come off worse?

In the case at hand the boys weren't drunk and I dislike playing what if so I won't bother to answer if only to say that judicially, neither would get charged.

[Jess]

It's not her fault. If the boys were smart, they would never have taken advantage of a drunk girl. Maybe she should have been more responsible, but it's definitely not her fault.

[Prodigy17]

In the case at hand the boys weren't drunk and I dislike playing what if so I won't bother to answer if only to say that judicially, neither would get charged.

I thought you'd been to law school?

If you had you would know that drunk girl + drunk guy + sex happened would mean drunk guy would be charged with rape if the girl chose to report. No what ifs :)

[TheBassoonist]

Going to the first party? That was on the girl. Getting the first drink? That was on her, as well. But when she was passed out, raped, carried around and brought to other parties, still passed out? That wasn't the girl's fault.

[Prodigy17]

If the boys were smart, they would never have taken advantage of a drunk girl.

If the girl was smart she wouldn't have got drunk - what did she think would happen?

[Jean Poutine]

I thought you'd been to law school?

If you had you would know that drunk girl + drunk guy + sex happened would mean drunk guy would be charged with rape if the girl chose to report. No what ifs :)

There is a great difference between what the law says and how the law is actually applied. If you went to law school you'd know that too. It's lesson #2. The first one is "law and justice are two completely different things".

Why would any crown attorney waste his time with a case like that when there's no way at all the guy, or in fact, anybody at all is going to get convicted? If it were a typical party setting where both parties willingly consumed and nothing else happened, there would be no charge. The victim would be dissuaded. It'd be a waste of taxpayer money.

[Jess]

If the girl was smart she wouldn't have got drunk - what did she think would happen?

True, but it's still not her fault she was raped. It's never the victim's fault.

[Jean Poutine]

True, but it's still not her fault she was raped. It's never the victim's fault.

No, that sort of thinking is what gets us with all these false rape charges in the first place.

[xmojox]

Being drunk or high or whatever is no defense for breaking the law. Sex without consent is rape. Rape is against the law.

[Prodigy17]

Why would any crown attorney waste his time with a case like that when there's no way at all the guy, or in fact, anybody at all is going to get convicted? If it were a typical party setting where both parties willingly consumed and nothing else happened, there would be no charge. The victim would be dissuaded. It'd be a waste of taxpayer money.

In the UK if a drunk girl and a drunk guy had sex and the girl reported a rape the next day the guy would certainly be charged. As far as police/prosecutors are concerned it would be a viable case.

Are you saying that were you live a guy could get a girl drunk and then "rape" her with no danger of conviction? If you think that you have a serious misunderstanding of why the law exists.

True, but it's still not her fault she was raped. It's never the victim's fault.

Unfortunately that's true. As far as the law's concerned
a guy is always responsible for putting his **** into a girls ****
a girl is not responsible for allowing a guy to put his **** into her ****

As a girl does that sound fair to you?

[Jean Poutine]

Are you saying that were you live a guy could get a girl drunk and then "rape" her with no danger of conviction? If you think that you have a serious misunderstanding of why the law exists.

That took such a huge twisting of my words to get to that, I'm not even certain how to answer because I'm dumbfounded and baked at the same time.

[Prodigy17]

That took such a huge twisting of my words to get to that, I'm not even certain how to answer because I'm dumbfounded and baked at the same time.

When you said this
Why would any crown attorney waste his time with a case like that when there's no way at all the guy, or in fact, anybody at all is going to get convicted? .

Was your point that
a/ drunk girl + drunk guy + sex = rape
or
b/ drunk girl + drunk guy + sex = nothing will happen

Sounded like you were saying b/ - meaning any guy is free to get a girl drunk and have sex with her.

[anyone50]

Probably 2 answers to this

1/ you should never blame yourself in that situation. So you did something a bit silly but you obviously didn't want anything bad to happen to you. Once you blame yourself the guys get away with what they did because you don't tell anyone. That is wrong

2/ Hopefully you'd learn a lesson and next time you would be a bit more sensible. It would be nice if a woman could go out and get totally drunk and still be safe but we all know that isn't going to happen - guys being what they are.

I don't place the blame on myself well not totally but there is this element of being responsible for ones self and iI think thats where I have the most trouble in reconciling what happen to me. As for not telling anyone maybe i'm a coward i don't know but I just wanted to forget it ever happened and if i had told or reported the incident this would have been harder on me than what actually happened that night becuse everyone would have done the same thing thats happening in this case. People take sides. The guy in question in my case wasn't a bad guy but like me had too much to drink and did apolagize about a week later but at the time I felt it was too little too late and we never really spoke after that. Shortly later he started going out with a girl I knew and I thought about telling her of the incident but now I'm glad I didn't becuse it would have served no purpose and they have been together for about 3 years now and plan on getting married. Like I said before I did learn a valuable lesson from this and I'm more aware of my surroundings whereever I go because of it.

But everyone also knows a drunk smart/decent guy does things he wouldn't do while sober.

If a drunk girl and a drunk guy are in the same room together who's going to come off worse?

I would proably say the girl in most cases but every situation has to be judged on it's own circumstances.

If the girl was smart she wouldn't have got drunk - what did she think would happen?

I can't speak for anyone but myself but i'm sure this applies to most girls, when I went to that party and started drinking it wasn't as if i had a game plan that went like this:
Go to party
Get drunk
Pass out
Hope some guy will take advantage of me while passed out

I went to have a good time and in my wildest dreams couldn't have seen what happened mostly because I was too young and nieve about what some guys are like.


-merged multiple posts. -Emerald Dream

[Prodigy17]

I don't place the blame on myself well not totally but there is this element of being responsible for ones self and iI think thats where I have the most trouble in reconciling what happen to me.

I understand wanting to forget it happened - but the fact you're posting about it probably means it's still on your mind so hard to forget. I'm guessing you haven't told anyone else about this? And yes if you'd reported it people would have taken sides and you'd have lost friends as a result.

Probably hard for me to understand as a guy but do you think the guy should have been punished in some way?

Please do talk to somebody you trust about this, you don't have to name names. Just saying how you feel I think would be helpful, if you feel angry then say so. Not the perfect solution but sometimes just saying how you feel can really help.

Sorry you went through this - please don't blame yourself

And - don't listen to anyone who says girls sort of deserve it, they should know better etc.

[anyone50]

I understand wanting to forget it happened - but the fact you're posting about it probably means it's still on your mind so hard to forget. I'm guessing you haven't told anyone else about this? And yes if you'd reported it people would have taken sides and you'd have lost friends as a result.

Probably hard for me to understand as a guy but do you think the guy should have been punished in some way?

Please do talk to somebody you trust about this, you don't have to name names. Just saying how you feel I think would be helpful, if you feel angry then say so. Not the perfect solution but sometimes just saying how you feel can really help.

Sorry you went through this - please don't blame yourself

And - don't listen to anyone who says girls sort of deserve it, they should know better etc.

Your right about not being able to forget even after three years all it takes is something like what recently happened in Ohio to bring it all back and I suspect it will always be this way when I hear of something like this happening. Rationally i know it wasn't my fault and i'm not sure a guy could ever understand the irrational thoughts that went through my mind afterwards and from what i have read i'm not alone and that other victims have had similar thoughts. Did this happened to me because of my choices "Why did I go to that party?" "Why did I get drunk?" I guess i can second-guess all day long, but the bottom line is that I would not have been victimized had he chosen to respect my right to be be at this party and not take advantage of the situation like he did. The mind is a funny thing and while every logical thought tells you one thing there's always this little voice that says what if. As for does he deserve to be punished, maybe. He got a free pass on his mistake and i don't know if he ever thinks about it or not and I'm sure he's not alone. I guess i would have felt worst if i let him get away with it and he continued his same behavior. Maybe we both learned something from this expereince becuse after that night I heard he stopped drinking at parties and started seeing this girl that i still occationally talk to. Sometimes the only way to move foward is to forgive the past

[Prodigy17]

I understand not being able to forget. Yea I am a guy so I don't understand everything but I do understand this is still in your mind, which is why i said talking about it is maybe a help?

You don't have to try and rationalise it to yourself - you went to a party hoping to have some fun and some bastard took advantage of you. Sorry to sound harsh but I'm trying to convey to you it wasn't your fault. 99% of guys would have respected your right to just have fun and not taken advantage of you. We can all say what if - what if you hadn't been there etc - but you didnt go there asking to be abused right?

On the good side it sounds like he's an OK guy now and hasn't done the same to another girl? So maybe it did teach him a lesson. He realised what he did - after he sobered up - and swore he'd never do the same thing again?

I hope you are a bit more careful in the future and won't put yourself in the position were this might happen. Obviously there's a lot of nice guys in the world but there's some shits too.

Sounds to me like you're trying to work this through in your mind which is natural. I just hope you don't blame yourself and you see this for what it was - a bad situation from a bad person. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Do you have somebody close you can talk about this with - friend, sister, mother etc? I think that would help, probably more than I can :)

[Jean Poutine]

When you said this


Was your point that
a/ drunk girl + drunk guy + sex = rape
or
b/ drunk girl + drunk guy + sex = nothing will happen

Sounded like you were saying b/ - meaning any guy is free to get a girl drunk and have sex with her.

Technically a), in most cases b) but only if the guy was completely hammered and not just tipsy because serious drunkenness is a defense (just consuming alcohol isn't).

It actually depends on a lot of aggravating factors. My point was based on consensual, equal drinking then "consensual" sex. If the girl was more hammered than the guy or if she actively opposed it there will definitely be a charge.

There is a case where a man brutally killed his female roommate because he was so hammered that he should actually have fallen into an ethyl coma and died, but didn't because the guy was a massive, raging alcoholic with the tolerance to boot. Instead, he took a knife and butchered her. He got out because of that defense.

[xmojox]

Technically a), in most cases b) but only if the guy was completely hammered and not just tipsy because serious drunkenness is a defense (just consuming alcohol isn't).

It actually depends on a lot of aggravating factors. My point was based on consensual, equal drinking then "consensual" sex. If the girl was more hammered than the guy or if she actively opposed it there will definitely be a charge.

There is a case where a man brutally killed his female roommate because he was so hammered that he should actually have fallen into an ethyl coma and died, but didn't because the guy was a massive, raging alcoholic with the tolerance to boot. Instead, he took a knife and butchered her. He got out because of that defense.

So by being drunk a person could beat a drunk driving charge. That's like seven kinds of fucked up.

[Jean Poutine]

So by being drunk a person could beat a drunk driving charge. That's like seven kinds of fucked up.

Obviously the defense doesn't apply when the crime requires you to be drunk in the first place.

[xmojox]

Obviously the defense doesn't apply when the crime requires you to be drunk in the first place.

I don't see how it can apply to anything. You're talking about in Canada, right?

[Southside]

No such thing as equal justice in America..

White guy shoots Black guy, White Guy is labeled racist and Jesse Jackson gets involved
Black guy shoots white guy, its self defense

[Jean Poutine]

I don't see how it can apply to anything. You're talking about in Canada, right?

The example of the murder.

[xmojox]

The example of the murder.

Yeah, I understand that. What I meant my question to be was: where did that case happen? Apologies for having been unclear.

[MrMundane]

You are the master of your fate to a degree, the girl should take some blame for putting herself in a situation that could turn sour. Not to take away from the fact that the 2 boys did rape her.

[Jean Poutine]

Yeah, I understand that. What I meant my question to be was: where did that case happen? Apologies for having been unclear.

Canada. Would you like a link?

[xmojox]

Canada. Would you like a link?

Please. I don't disbelieve you at all, I'm just curious as to their reasoning. I don't think that's a defense here. I could be really wrong about that, though.

Edit: Interestingly, there is a defense called settled insanity. I read about that here ( http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/2/172.long), if you're interested.

[Jean Poutine]

Please. I don't disbelieve you at all, I'm just curious as to their reasoning. I don't think that's a defense here. I could be really wrong about that, though.

Edit: Interestingly, there is a defense called settled insanity. I read about that here ( http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/2/172.long), if you're interested.

There you go good sir : http://canlii.ca/t/1frr7

Intoxication as a defense is closer to automatism : ie sleepwalking.

[xmojox]

There you go good sir : http://canlii.ca/t/1frr7

Intoxication as a defense is closer to automatism : ie sleepwalking.

That was a long read. I understand a bit better now. It's not simply drunkenness, it's alcoholic blackout. I can see merits on both sides of that.

Commonwealth Law is complicated, isn't it?

[Jean Poutine]

That was a long read. I understand a bit better now. It's not simply drunkenness, it's alcoholic blackout. I can see merits on both sides of that.

Commonwealth Law is complicated, isn't it?

It would have been too easy if it were simply drunkenness.

And actually it is pretty simple. You just have to be used to reading this kind of shit.

[xmojox]

It would have been too easy if it were simply drunkenness.

And actually it is pretty simple. You just have to be used to reading this kind of shit.

I read it quite a bit. It's the best way to find out why they make the decisions they do. I was thinking it's more complicated because you have the courts of all the Commonwealth Nation's to consider, but, I guess that's really no different from here where they have the courts of all the various states to consider. The language is slightly different in Commonwealth law and US law, but not too much. It was a good read. Again, thanks for the link.

[Jean Poutine]

I read it quite a bit. It's the best way to find out why they make the decisions they do. I was thinking it's more complicated because you have the courts of all the Commonwealth Nation's to consider, but, I guess that's really no different from here where they have the courts of all the various states to consider. The language is slightly different in Commonwealth law and US law, but not too much. It was a good read. Again, thanks for the link.

Hold on, are you saying that you think that the decisions in one Commonwealth country apply to all of them?

[xmojox]

Hold on, are you saying that you think that the decisions in one Commonwealth country apply to all of them?

No not at all. Am I mistaken to think that they do consider the decisions from other Commonwealth countries? Not saying that it's binding...only that it seems to be taken into consideration.

[theUnprofessional]

I think criminals should be sentenced either way.

[Jean Poutine]

No not at all. Am I mistaken to think that they do consider the decisions from other Commonwealth countries? Not saying that it's binding...only that it seems to be taken into consideration.

Taken into consideration just the same as American, French etc decisions are. There is really nothing special about "Commonwealth law", the term itself being kind of a misnomer because there are countries with a common law (ie British) tradition that aren't part of the Commonwealth...like the United States.

I'd say that recently I've seen many many more American decisions cited as an influence than British ones.

[xmojox]

Taken into consideration just the same as American, French etc decisions are. There is really nothing special about "Commonwealth law", the term itself being kind of a misnomer because there are countries with a common law (ie British) tradition that aren't part of the Commonwealth...like the United States.

I'd say that recently I've seen many many more American decisions cited as an influence than British ones.

Cool. Thanks. :)