Religion and this forum

[Sir Suomi]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.

[Horatio Nelson]

Haha, Ranting is fun every now and again.

[Sir Suomi]

Haha, Ranting is fun every now and again.

Haha yeah I know. Had to get it off my chest :yes:

[Hyper]

Uhuh. This is the internet... In general negative opinins seem to prevail on the internet, since its easy to express them online.

Religion, theology in general I think is a topic too advanced for most people. And probably the vast majority of teenagers

[Apollo.]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.

When religion stops inciting hate and getting involved in political matters I will hate, until religion stops all its shit anti gay policies ill hate it. Everyone that preaches to me I will hate, I will hate it cause its a backward thinking organisation incites hate so a lot hate it, it's simple fucking thing. The fact most religions people tell me im going to hell pisses me off and therefore all Religion pisses me off!!

[Guillermo]

Religion, theology in general I think is a topic too advanced for most people. And probably the vast majority of teenagers

Agreed+

Religion is a topic that really isn't just one topic. There is so much more to religion than what we blatantly see or hear. People need to understand that religion isn't this horrible system that needs to be abolished. There are many different positive effects that religion has brought out such as education. And really, religion is a fascinating subject that allows one to take a greater look into cultures all around the word.

But there's no need to get pissed off because:

1. This is the internet.
2. People do, in fact, have the right to criticize anything they deem 'wrong.'

[Southside]

"God is not religion,but a spirtual bond"-IT

[Hyper]

Bear in mind that the more someone believes in something, whatever that may be, the more emotionally involved they are and thus the harder it is to remain intellectually objective and emotionally unattached (as much as such feats are possible for human beings)

Thats why in general conversations about religion or politics turn to ''NO U!!!!'' arguments regardless of the age or education of the participants. But to be frank I think emotional unattachment from an idea or belief is especially hard for teenagers as typically they havent had their beliefs challenged intellectually as often as more older people, of course this isn't some iron clad rule.

[Horatio Nelson]

I really hate conflict unless it's completely unavoidable. I say let people think what they want, we will all pay our dues in the end.

[xmojox]

When religion stops inciting hate and getting involved in political matters I will hate, until religion stops all its shit anti gay policies ill hate it. Everyone that preaches to me I will hate, I will hate it cause its a backward thinking organisation incites hate so a lot hate it, it's simple fucking thing. The fact most religions people tell me im going to hell pisses me off and therefore all Religion pisses me off!!

I can't recall having seen the OP do any of those things. Bigotry and prejudice are ugly things, regardless of their target. You are prejudiced against anyone who follows a religion, and that, sir, is just as bad as religion being prejudiced against you for your sexuality.

[Apollo.]

I can't recall having seen the OP do any of those things. Bigotry and prejudice are ugly things, regardless of their target. You are prejudiced against anyone who follows a religion, and that, sir, is just as bad as religion being prejudiced against you for your sexuality.

The OP follows a religion that preaches hate, the church is bigoted and prejudiced so if the OP follows the religion he must share the views, even in his signature, he says he's slightly against gay marriage. I am against religion because of the hate it preaches, if that is eradicated believe what the hell you want.

[brandon1995]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.
Hey Austin, I don't know exactly what you mean, but I'm against any kind of bashing. I really think you are wrong--atheists get bashed way, way more than Christians. They put up a billboard near where I live for a unbeliever's group and its constantly defaced. I just heard a preacher on tv today say atheists dont belong in America, so I think you need to do some reserach.

[xmojox]

The OP follows a religion that preaches hate, the church is bigoted and prejudiced so if the OP follows the religion he must share the views, even in his signature, he says he's slightly against gay marriage. I am against religion because of the hate it preaches, if that is eradicated believe what the hell you want.

Obviously, since he says that he is slightly against gay marriage, he isn't absolutely opposed to it. Or, at least he wasn't when he wrote his signature. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's a little more opposed to it now. You can't win people to your cause by slamming them and calling them names. It just doesn't work that way. You don't like religion, fine, don't follow it. Nobody says you have to. It's ill-advised to bash the very people you desire to persuade, though.

[Apollo.]

Obviously, since he says that he is slightly against gay marriage, he isn't absolutely opposed to it. Or, at least he wasn't when he wrote his signature. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's a little more opposed to it now. You can't win people to your cause by slamming them and calling them names. It just doesn't work that way. You don't like religion, fine, don't follow it. Nobody says you have to. It's ill-advised to bash the very people you desire to persuade, though.

Still he is against gay marriage, no matter how much he is still opposed to it! I know I don't have to follow the religion I'd rather die than follow the church. The fact is I strongly disagree with the church preaching hate, people are listening to it and it creates a problem for gay people, I will slam religion because it causes problems for others outside of the church.

You seem to think "don't agree then dont follow" is a reasonable argument, it's not! When an organisation discriminates a group of people for something they cannot change then it is wrong! The church considers itself immune from any of these rules simply because they have been a group of small minded, prejudiced bastards from day 1

[Harry Smith]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.


The reason at people don't bash atheists is because we have managed to develop a pretty water tight universal argument, whereas in religion they struggle to even decide the role of Jesus, a jew or muslim will tell you he is a messenger whilst a christian will say he is the son of god.

Christianity refuses to allow Female Bishops, the large part of it are actively against me marrying who I want and an even larger majority believe that even in cases of rape women should keep the baby. We live in a secular society. The church is just a group in my mind, they had there share of world power for about 400 years. Now it's time for a modern secular society where a single group of people won't tell me what the man in sky does and does not want me to do.

Your example of 2+2=5, of course your going to be corrected if you believe in something that lacks evidence or proof. I think that debate is the way to expand young people's minds, so if you tell me that you won't support my marriage because a mysterious fellow it was wrong of course I'm going to argue.

[xmojox]

Still he is against gay marriage, no matter how much he is still opposed to it! I know I don't have to follow the religion I'd rather die than follow the church. The fact is I strongly disagree with the church preaching hate, people are listening to it and it creates a problem for gay people, I will slam religion because it causes problems for others outside of the church.

You seem to think "don't agree then dont follow" is a reasonable argument, it's not! When an organisation discriminates a group of people for something they cannot change then it is wrong! The church considers itself immune from any of these rules simply because they have been a group of small minded, prejudiced bastards from day 1

The way to counter hatred is not with hatred. That becomes a case of "pot, meet kettle," doesn't it?

[IAMWILL]

Wow this thread is hilarious, it turned into exactly what the OP was ranting about.

Anyway, I agree that religion is a topic that just gets constantly attacked on this forum, because a large population of VT for some reason feels the Church hates them. The number 1 thing I see is people not having any idea what they are talking about when they try and argue Church teachings. I've been thinking about making a thread with all the correct Catholic Church's teachings in it, just so people can actually know what they are talking about. I agree as well that religion too advanced of a topic for most teenagers. I'm not saying I'm somehow better than anyone, but I've intensely studied theology for the last 4 years, and know Church teaching very well, much better than most of the members here, yet I still don't think I would be fully ready to debate someone on important matters like gay marriage and such. I have no doubt that a 14 year old who has looked at the Church for 30 minutes is ready to debate either. There is just an incredible amount of hatred on this forum for religion and the Church, I'd hate to think people walk around all day with that same attitude. I am nearly powerless to change things here though, as most people who here something against their beliefs just dismiss it as false, or rush to change their stance as to not be caught as flat out wrong. Its sad. /rant

[Apollo.]

The way to counter hatred is not with hatred. That becomes a case of "pot, meet kettle," doesn't it?

What do you expect me to say? "Ok stop me marrying the guy I love and preach hate on homosexuals but I'm cool with that"? No! The church is outdated, power hungry and deluded. They cannot keep preaching hate and getting away with it. Your statement would mean we should all be accepting of the KKK cause we shouldn't fight hate with hate? Do you think the KKK should be left alone cause its their beliefs and that's ok?

[IAMWILL]

Apollo, the Church doesn't teach hate, you really need to stop with that argument. Go read the Catechism section about homosexuality (2357 and 2358).
To quote it:
They (homosexuals) must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided

[xmojox]

What do you expect me to say? "Ok stop me marrying the guy I love and preach hate on homosexuals but I'm cool with that"? No! The church is outdated, power hungry and deluded. They cannot keep preaching hate and getting away with it. Your statement would mean we should all be accepting of the KKK cause we shouldn't fight hate with hate? Do you think the KKK should be left alone cause its their beliefs and that's ok?

What I'm saying is that if you sincerely want to stand any chance whatsoever of influencing the way people think, you can't come off sounding like a hate-monger. It's counterproductive to your cause and does your cause more harm than good.

And you seriously neg-repped me because I called you sir? Are you so blinded by your hatred that you don't realize when someone is trying to help you? I've not attacked you. I've not patronized you. All I've done is offer what was intended to be helpful criticism. I'm not against your cause, I simply disagree with your methods, because they will never work. you do not win people to your cause by further alienating them.

And what the fuck does the ku Klux Klan have to do with anything?

[Gwen]

This thread turned into another flame war of Religion (Who saw that coming?). Could we just stop fighting, this thread was made I believe to stop people from arguing and it became the exact opposite. Maybe you hate the church and beliefs, but maybe you can stop hating people due to their religion. People can't fathom that the majority of Christians (Not the ones in your neighborhood) are fine with others beliefs, whether it's sexual beliefs or religious. I followed Christianity as it was something to believe in and something to teach good morals and behaviors.

[Harry Smith]

Wow this thread is hilarious, it turned into exactly what the OP was ranting about.

Anyway, I agree that religion is a topic that just gets constantly attacked on this forum, because a large population of VT for some reason feels the Church hates them. The number 1 thing I see is people not having any idea what they are talking about when they try and argue Church teachings. I've been thinking about making a thread with all the correct Catholic Church's teachings in it, just so people can actually know what they are talking about. I agree as well that religion too advanced of a topic for most teenagers. I'm not saying I'm somehow better than anyone, but I've intensely studied theology for the last 4 years, and know Church teaching very well, much better than most of the members here, yet I still don't think I would be fully ready to debate someone on important matters like gay marriage and such. I have no doubt that a 14 year old who has looked at the Church for 30 minutes is ready to debate either. There is just an incredible amount of hatred on this forum for religion and the Church, I'd hate to think people walk around all day with that same attitude. I am nearly powerless to change things here though, as most people who here something against their beliefs just dismiss it as false, or rush to change their stance as to not be caught as flat out wrong. Its sad. /rant

Come to Britain mate, the amount of catholic who were launching TV ads saying gay marriage would bring down the country, Christians saying gay couples adopting is child abuse. When the church attack my way of life, something which will affect my every day I'm going to want to fight back. People view the church as being based on something which has no evidence to support it, Thats why it's unpopular. It is based on the idea that there is a supreme being who is ruling over all us. People believed that stuff in the medieval times but now the human race is modernizing. Look at the most advanced countries - Sweden, Norway, UK, France, Germany. These are all MEDC's and they are all liberal, yet it's the less advanced countries such as Guyana and Uganda are still ruled by the church.

[Apollo.]

What I'm saying is that if you sincerely want to stand any chance whatsoever of influencing the way people think, you can't come off sounding like a hate-monger. It's counterproductive to your cause and does your cause more harm than good.

And you seriously neg-repped me because I called you sir? Are you so blinded by your hatred that you don't realize when someone is trying to help you? I've not attacked you. I've not patronized you. All I've done is offer what was intended to be helpful criticism. I'm not against your cause, I simply disagree with your methods, because they will never work. you do not win people to your cause by further alienating them.

And what the fuck does the ku Klux Klan have to do with anything?

The KKK is an organisation that incites hate upon a group of people because of something they cannot change, largely like the church.

You are not trying to help you are trying to stay neutral so if you want to do that dont comment on the thread. Yes I neg repped you, you were trying.to sound patronizing and I do not appreciate it. You should be greatful I have the balls to sign my rep.

[xmojox]

The KKK is an organisation that incites hate upon a group of people because of something they cannot change, largely like the church.

You are not trying to help you are trying to stay neutral so if you want to do that dont comment on the thread. Yes I neg repped you, you were trying.to sound patronizing and I do not appreciate it. You should be greatful I have the balls to sign my rep.

I'm FAR from neutral on the topic of same-sex marriage, and, no, I was following the rules of polite debate, as they were taught to me. In what way is my having called you sir able to be construed as patronization? If it's a cultural difference I plead ignorance and apologize, otherwise, it's simple politeness.

[Human]

Please stop the flame war and try to get back on topic everyone!

[xmojox]

Please stop the flame war and try to get back on topic everyone!

Apologies. I had no intention of getting into a war of any kind. I withdraw from this discussion.

[Apollo.]

I'm FAR from neutral on the topic of same-sex marriage, and, no, I was following the rules of polite debate, as they were taught to me. In what way is my having called you sir able to be construed as patronization? If it's a cultural difference I plead ignorance and apologize, otherwise, it's simple politeness.

Do enlighten me to your views on same sex marriage then?

[xmojox]

I believe that you, and everyone else, has the right to marry whomever you damn well please. And this is my final post in this thread. I had no intention of becoming involved in a fight with you.

[Sir Suomi]

Ugh, I think I'm just going to get rid of that signature, it's more trouble than it's worth.

To Apollo, not every Christian is a homosexual hating person. You are looking at what can be referred to as "the bad apples". As Will said, Christians arn't supposed to hate homosexuals. But some people decided to abandon that and ruin the face of Christianity. When I say "Slightly against Same-Sex Marriage"(For the 100th time), I mean that I really don't like homosexuality, but I don't hate homosexuals. I won't ever go out and publicly speak out against it, but you will also never see me advocate for it. I'm more neutral, with just leaning an inch to the side. If you got a problem with that, I'm sorry, but it's not going to change.

Harry, you're looking at just a portion of Christianity. Not all Christian organizations are like that. In your example, that's like saying a few people in town A like pie. So everyone in town A must like pie. And just because I don't support you getting married mean I'm an ignorant prick. So seriously, lay off.

By the way, thanks Mojo.

[Sugaree]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.

The majority of the internet hates you, unfortunately. You won't please everyone, so fuck 'em. People here bash religion because they want to be edgy and 2hardcore4u. The atheists of this forum disgust me too, and it seems most of them probably just hate going to a church every few weeks for an hour. Honestly, as a religious person, you learn to deal with it and move on. Nothing you find on the internet that bashes religion, any religion, is worth the time.

[Harry Smith]

Ugh, I think I'm just going to get rid of that signature, it's more trouble than it's worth.

To Apollo, not every Christian is a homosexual hating person. You are looking at what can be referred to as "the bad apples". As Will said, Christians arn't supposed to hate homosexuals. But some people decided to abandon that and ruin the face of Christianity. When I say "Slightly against Same-Sex Marriage"(For the 100th time), I mean that I really don't like homosexuality, but I don't hate homosexuals. I won't ever go out and publicly speak out against it, but you will also never see me advocate for it. I'm more neutral, with just leaning an inch to the side. If you got a problem with that, I'm sorry, but it's not going to change.

Harry, you're looking at just a portion of Christianity. Not all Christian organizations are like that. In your example, that's like saying a few people in town A like pie. So everyone in town A must like pie. And just because I don't support you getting married mean I'm an ignorant prick. So seriously, lay off.

By the way, thanks Mojo.

I've never said you were an ignorant prick, never.

The reason why I'm looking at a portion of Christianity is because there is no universal christian view, there are several different branches, yes they agree on the role of Jesus but they differ on many other issues. Hence why I mentioned both Church of England examples - refusing women bishops and Catholic examples - Refusal of abortions to show that the two main branches in England both have issues.

[WalkingOnDisaster]

I agree. I believe what I want.. Does that mean I deserve being criticized? Nope. Cause its part of me. Part of who I am. Next you're gonna criticize me for being blonde and having hazel eyes. Or for being a girl. Or whatever. Come on... It's just what someone believes.

[Harry Smith]

I agree. I believe what I want.. Does that mean I deserve being criticized? Nope. Cause its part of me. Part of who I am. Next you're gonna criticize me for being blonde and having hazel eyes. Or for being a girl. Or whatever. Come on... It's just what someone believes.

Just because you hold a belief doesn't mean that it's justified, if you can back up your belief with evidence and a well supported argument that's when it becomes a justifiable belief. In holding a belief you accept that others may and will debate your belief and test it. Just like in science how a theory is tested by the community

[WalkingOnDisaster]

Just because you hold a belief doesn't mean that it's justified, if you can back up your belief with evidence and a well supported argument that's when it becomes a justifiable belief. In holding a belief you accept that others may and will debate your belief and test it. Just like in science how a theory is tested by the community

Oh no that's not what I was saying. Just like people who don't believe in God can't be justified, I know that my belief in God in some ways can't be justified. Although I believe that there is scientific proof, I accept that others do not agree. I know what I believe vastly differs from, say, yourself, believes. But in all due honesty it's fine. You are you, I am me. We don't have to share the same thought process to both be humans on this planet.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

When religion stops inciting hate and getting involved in political matters I will hate, until religion stops all its shit anti gay policies ill hate it. Everyone that preaches to me I will hate, I will hate it cause its a backward thinking organisation incites hate so a lot hate it, it's simple fucking thing. The fact most religions people tell me im going to hell pisses me off and therefore all Religion pisses me off!!

From what I can tell... You don't hate religion. You don't even hate people who practice religion. You hate intolerance. This really is a noble thing, but it's even more so disgusting when you pervert it. Hating something or someone simply because they or it has one single differing view is in it's self intolerant and really, it accomplishes nothing. Instead you should calmly say that there is no rational reasoning to what they believe in. You should let them know that as long as they are intolerant you will have nothing to do with them. And lastly you should realize that you do in fact have the moral high ground, as long as you don't abuse it. "Gays deserve equal rights." is a much better argument than "but my religion is against it."

The OP follows a religion that preaches hate, the church is bigoted and prejudiced so if the OP follows the religion he must share the views, even in his signature, he says he's slightly against gay marriage. I am against religion because of the hate it preaches, if that is eradicated believe what the hell you want.

So you are saying that people should not be able to believe what they want if it is hateful? Religion itself does not preach. Pastors and other religious leaders do. I go to a christian school and I can tell you right now that the pastors there have no problem with gays. I don't know what their political beliefs on gay marriage are, but even if they are against it, so what. Like I said, their argument is invalid and they are not the ones who make up the laws.

Still he is against gay marriage, no matter how much he is still opposed to it! I know I don't have to follow the religion I'd rather die than follow the church. The fact is I strongly disagree with the church preaching hate, people are listening to it and it creates a problem for gay people, I will slam religion because it causes problems for others outside of the church.

The fact that you care so much about what people who alledgedly hate you think about you appalls me. You just have to understand that the next generation is just going to that much more tolerant. Most of the kids at my school (a christian school) could care less. Most don't understand why religion overrules logic, though. I personally think there are more important issues. To you on the other hand gay rights are the ONLY thing that matters. It's because of this that YOU are hateful.

You seem to think "don't agree then dont follow" is a reasonable argument, it's not! When an organisation discriminates a group of people for something they cannot change then it is wrong! The church considers itself immune from any of these rules simply because they have been a group of small minded, prejudiced bastards from day 1

The word hypocrisy comes to mind. Also the church is singular, therefore the pronoun they does not fit. The people of the church would fit there, but then it would seem that once again you being prejudiced towards all church goers that they hate gays. Simply not the case.

What do you expect me to say? "Ok stop me marrying the guy I love and preach hate on homosexuals but I'm cool with that"? No! The church is outdated, power hungry and deluded. They cannot keep preaching hate and getting away with it. Your statement would mean we should all be accepting of the KKK cause we shouldn't fight hate with hate? Do you think the KKK should be left alone cause its their beliefs and that's ok?

I don't expect you to do nothing, but assuming every christian is a hateful person because of that one awful christian you met that one time seems like a bit of an over reaction.

The KKK is an organisation that incites hate upon a group of people because of something they cannot change, largely like the church.

Last time I checked the church no longer nails people to crosses and lights them on fire. That is the prime difference between the church and the KKK. The KKK actually infringed on the rights of others. You are accusing the church of simply thinking negative things about you.

[QUOTE=Apollo.;2188121]Do enlighten me to your views on same sex marriage then?

This was not directed at me, but hey. I personally don't have any issues with gays or gay marriage. I do on the other hand have a problem with individuals who care about nothing except one single belief.

[Sir Suomi]

I've never said you were an ignorant prick, never.

The reason why I'm looking at a portion of Christianity is because there is no universal christian view, there are several different branches, yes they agree on the role of Jesus but they differ on many other issues. Hence why I mentioned both Church of England examples - refusing women bishops and Catholic examples - Refusal of abortions to show that the two main branches in England both have issues.

Sorry about the bout that first part. I was quite frustrated by you know who at the time, but I'm over it now.

So as you stated, not all portions of Christianity are like that. Trust me, I'm far from Catholic. Believing in the Big Man's the only thing I can really agree with them about. But yes, some parts of Christianity could use some change, that much I can agree with.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

This thread turned into another flame war of Religion (Who saw that coming?). Could we just stop fighting, this thread was made I believe to stop people from arguing and it became the exact opposite. Maybe you hate the church and beliefs, but maybe you can stop hating people due to their religion. People can't fathom that the majority of Christians (Not the ones in your neighborhood) are fine with others beliefs, whether it's sexual beliefs or religious. I followed Christianity as it was something to believe in and something to teach good morals and behaviors.

Everyone. Thats why these posts shouldn't be posted; all of VT gets involved in a war over views on religion.

[Gwen]

Everyone. Thats why these posts shouldn't be posted; all of VT gets involved in a war over views on religion.

Not just VT, think of almost the entire Internet. Just wait next week for another flame war on Gun Control or another 'Hot' Topic :yawn:

[Jean Poutine]

This looks completely (and in quite the unsubtle way, at that) directed to me, and since I am in a state where it is impossible for me to be angry right now, I will respond.

First, my views :

Do I hate religion?

In 1984, the Party was able to control its population by implementing the act of "doublethink" : the art of believing two radically different, even diametrically opposed, beliefs at the same time. When the Party says "we've always been at war with Eurasia, not Eastasia", even when they've seen the opposite thing 5 minutes earlier because of a sudden change in the world's geopolitics, everyone switches seamlessly. They've been at war with Eurasia forever but 5 minutes ago they've been at war with Eastasia and Eurasia was an ally. This is an example of doublethink.

From the book :

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.

To me, this kind of thing always has characterized religion. Think about the Old Testament. Nobody cares about the Old Testament. We don't "learn" the Old Testament, at least not up here. Christians are very quick to point out that homosexual activity is immoral according to Leviticus, but then they forget the rest of Leviticus which says not to eat cheeseburgers or wear mixed fabrics. Picking and choosing - doublethink. Not only that, the idea of a God itself is an act of doublethink as we are somehow expected to believe that a destructive deity that killed millions loves us. Forgetting the inconvenient facts of all the killings and massacres brought upon the Earth by God according to the Bible to now claim God made an about-face, sent us his only son so we could stab him on a cross to wash away all our sins.

Wash away yours first, Daddy?

Religion, especially Judeo-Christian ones, is all about believing 2+2=5 in that one context, while 2+2=4 everywhere else. It is faith that permits this. Faith is the worst expression of trust a human can give because faith is not conditioned by any objective values. There is no "logical argument" for faith. Faith happens, you believe or you don't, and if you do believe, you are left to apply doublethink to reconcile what you see in front of you, terribly obviously, and what you have faith in, which is not so obvious.

I have seen this horribly backfire. I have seen people broken trying to do this reconciliation, then shunned when they didn't manage to do it. Left on the streets with nothing, or not much. This should remind you of something else...the Party turns into a criminal, an absolute pariah anyone inside the Party that holds seditious beliefs against it...doublethink is meant to prevent that.

The usual argument : "if I want to unfasten my car belt/binge drink/believe 2+2=5 then that's my choice and nobody can stop me!" That's not true. To a level, it isn't your choice, and somebody can and should stop you. It's the State.

If I had my way, the government would eradicate religion, but this is not an objective position as I do carry a great deal of hatred for religious institutions. I would absolutely settle for religion being thrown off its pedestal and regulated. Religious people keep asking for tolerance : where is YOUR tolerance against the homosexual, the apostate or the whore? Every Christian claims they should be accepted and loved as any other, but every time I've spoken to people "in the faith", from many religions, all I've received was smug arrogance and superiority, like how a bunch of cool kids may allow a fat, nerdy dude to hang around once in a while. Why should lay society tolerate a set of beliefs that is intolerant?

First, people have been taught these crazy ideas since childhood and it is very hard to shake these off. It takes a great deal of courage to disavow all that you've been taught for years, especially in American households where religion is still, for some reason, omnipresent. There are numerous not-for-profits who's only purpose is to help people get out of destructive religious settings. These people have been destroyed once during their childhood, then rebuilt according to the religious ideals their parents held, and now they have to destroy themselves again to learn how to live in the lay world. Here's an example : http://www.footstepsorg.org/

Second, religion should be regulated. No separation of Church and State. The State should be over the Church. If a religion is evidently exploitative, hateful or destructive (examples : scientology, WBC, orthodox Judaism, respectively), then it should be outlawed. Freedom of religion should be THROWN THE FUCK OUT. I am not kidding. I am absolutely tired of reading case law about some Jewish dude who wanted to build a shack on his fuckin' patio in a high-rise condo building even when his lease told him that was expressely forbidden for obvious security reasons, and yet STILL got his shack on his patio even when the management was ready to allow him to build one on the yard. In the name of freedom of religion, a validly concluded contract was thrown away. This does NOT pass. Freedom of religion is miles and miles above any other freedom. The freedom to enter contracts in total liberty, the right to the security of your person (described as "the right to make important lifestyle choices) and so on.

Another argument : "people who hate religion don't realize how important it has been in many areas of social welfare".

No, I do. I just care about how important it is in many areas of social welfare now. Which is dismally low. There's a reason education and health care were given over to the State. If religion still ran all the hospitals, do you think much stem cell research would go on? Abortions? What about blood transfusions for a Jehovah's Witnesses hospital?

Let me tell you something. I have the pleasure in living in what was one of the most religiously oppressed societies on the planet just 50 years ago. My mother was among the first divorcees in the province, EVER. I have studied and heard and studied again what giving over these social responsibilities to the Church did. It transformed us into an unintelligent flock of sheep that priests could toy with as they wished. If the parish priest didn't think your family had enough children you were better to start fucking very soon if you wanted to go to Heaven like your neighbor with 14 children. The Roman Catholic Church tried to build something in Quebec, a religious bastion, and to this end, they devalued education and controlled our lives so we would stay a God-fearing, agrarian people with no immediate future, until we took back our destiny and won our freedom, and look where we are now : an open, tolerant place where it is good and fun to live. Cops are lax and people are friendly, the knowledge sector is what drives the economy forward, with a buttload of R&D funding. We are educated and powerful and in many areas it is the hitherto "white niggers of America" that do the breakthrough research. THAT is what throwing religion away almost completely got us.

Another thing. That dichotomy about Heaven and Hell, playing on your fears to win you over, that's called "room 101" in 1984.

Religion, consciously or not, took many a page from 1984, and this is why I hate it so much. I do not want to live like Winston. I want to be truly free, I want to be able to choose which master I serve, if any, and not have to hide behind a five-letter word like "faith" to protect my "choice", because since it isn't "faith" but "logic" that governs my life, I am to be penalized, as things currently are.

You want that faith? Have it, but I will not idle blindly as more and more of MY rights and freedoms are infringed upon by you idiots because somehow, the freedom of religion is the most sacrosanct one there is. Have the State control God is all I'm saying.

For the finale, here's my perfect world :

My perfect world is a world where nobody has to suffer under the yoke of cults and religion. My perfect world is a world where what you have faith in does not give you any advantages compared to people who do not share it. My perfect world is one where people have no right to picket funerals with "God hates fags" signs, mortgage their house a second time to get to that preclear level or indoctrinate their sons and daughters before they have reached an age where they can understand and think for themselves. My ideal world is one where nobody wears a burqa, crucifix, kippah or turban outside their home or do not stop a hundred people's lives to unroll carpets and pray. My ideal world is one where you can make mistakes without entirely ruining your life because a benevolent State looks after you and got your back for another shot if you fuck up. My ideal world is one where no religious lobbyist can strip you of your right to marry, love and be loved, with all the advantages the STATE recognizes to such unions.

Yeah, I'm a total socialist, a dirty liberal, and whereas religion is inherently divisive, either we make it less divisive for the benefit of humankind as a whole compared to the selfish aspirations of a few, or eradicate it altogether. I'm fine with either.

[ayelove100]

Sorry about this, but I'm starting to become really pissed off at some members of this forum. Why does everyone seem to bash on religion(Mainly Christianity)? Jesus, let us believe what we want to believe. If I want to believe that 2+2=5, don't try and tell me that I'm ignorant and stupid for thinking like that. I'll believe whatever the hell I want. Do you see anyone on this site bashing on Atheists? Never, because it apparently is such a terrible thing to do! But bashing on Christianity just because I believe in something more than just plain out living? Perfectly fucking fine! Just because I believe in God doesn't make me ignore real world facts. In fact, I LOVE to learn about science, why stuff does what it does. But apparently not. For Pete's sake, STOP BASHING ON RELIGION!

*Sigh* Rant over.

I have the same problem. People on here piss me the hell off to but the best thing to do is either no answer, or answer in a convincing way. They hate on religion because mainly atheist are here. I seem to be the only muslim debating and i get a lot of hate and my reputation used to be veryy low. All because i speak what i think the same way they do. Its okay tho. In religion we are to preach to let people know about religion and try to save them. Its our duty to do that because in the end when they suffer they will regret that (if you are atheist and are mad that i wrote this don't be i am speaking for religion if you dont believe in heaven or hell then just bear with me) they didn't at least try to give religion a chance. What is wrong to be on the safe side and have a religion just in case. If this world was just created and there is no god, what is the problem if you are part of a religion.

[StoppingTime]

In religion we are to preach to let people know about religion and try to save them.

Did you...... just speak for all religious people? Because I can assure you there are religious people who do not believe in preaching to others nonstop about what is "right" and what is "wrong." Preaching only lowers others' opinions on religion.


Its our duty to do that because in the end when they suffer they will regret that

Stop grouping all religious people to fit what you believe religious people should be doing.


they didn't at least try to give religion a chance.

How do you know? Right, you don't.


What is wrong to be on the safe side and have a religion just in case. If this world was just created and there is no god, what is the problem if you are part of a religion.


For most religions (if not all), you're not supposed to follow them "just in case," or "so you can get in to heaven" or whatever. And that's not really my opinion, it's found in most religious scriptures and accepted interpretations. So to say that you follow a religion "because it might be true" doesn't really seem too convincing an argument to get others to follow that religion, too.

[ayelove100]

Did you...... just speak for all religious people? Because I can assure you there are religious people who do not believe in preaching to others nonstop about what is "right" and what is "wrong." Preaching only lowers others' opinions on religion.
No sorry I was typing too fast. I mean for priests, shaikhs, etc. These are the people that most commonly preach.


Stop grouping all religious people to fit what you believe religious people should be doing.

Okay then what should i call them????? I think you should know which type of people i am talking about. If not then your either slow, or just trying to find any thing to make a big deal about.

How do you know? Right, you don't.

By the way most people are talking on here they have barely a clue about religion, or have the wrong thought. I will give it to you though some people on here are very intelligent and do know.


[QUOTE]For most religions (if not all), you're not supposed to follow them "just in case," or "so you can get in to heaven" or whatever.

I follow islam because i 100% believe it,

[StoppingTime]

Okay then what should i call them????? I think you should know which type of people i am talking about. If not then your either slow, or just trying to find any thing to make a big deal about.

How should I know who you're talking about. You said we. That infers anyone who follows a religion, as that was your subject.


By the way most people are talking on here they have barely a clue about religion, or have the wrong thought. I will give it to you though some people on here are very intelligent and do know.

That's true with anything though. So I'm not really sure why it's an issue?


I follow islam because i 100% believe it,

Okay, great. That doesn't mean it's your duty to say that anyone who doesn't follow Islam is damned eternally or whatever you meant earlier.

[ayelove100]

Okay, great. That doesn't mean it's your duty to say that anyone who doesn't follow Islam is damned eternally or whatever you meant earlier.[/QUOTE]

If you are a kafir and dont beleive in your creator then why would he let you in heaven compared to the muslims that devoted their life to islam? Not all muslims are going to heaven though either. I am not god to tell you were you are going but according to the Quran if you are an unbeliever then you will be damned, but also it does depend if you heard about the religion but who in the world does not hear about relgions these days. Do you get what i mean? So its our duty as muslims to follow our religion and not count others sins. But its also our duty to make a dawa and let you know about islam.

[Nellerin]

Uhuh. This is the internet... In general negative opinins seem to prevail on the internet, since its easy to express them online.

Religion, theology in general I think is a topic too advanced for most people. And probably the vast majority of teenagers

Too advanced? Other way around, religion is for people that are relatively weak and grasp at useless strands of hope and wishful thinking. They ignore facts and the true nature of life.

The OP follows a religion that preaches hate, the church is bigoted and prejudiced so if the OP follows the religion he must share the views, even in his signature, he says he's slightly against gay marriage. I am against religion because of the hate it preaches, if that is eradicated believe what the hell you want.

I agree somewhat, the BIBLE teaches hate but some churches choose to only teach good things from the bible or make up new doctrines of belief exempt from the Bible's hate.


And what the fuck does the ku Klux Klan have to do with anything?

It's an example :yeah:

[drew6]

I think there is confusion between having faith in Christ vs having faith in organized religion and looking to rules and traditions of organized religion to guide us. I think religion fails at that because is focused on power, money and influence more than they are grace and acceptance and in sharing Christs life. Seems odd to me.

[Hyper]

Yes too advanced the topic of religion is mixed with tradition, culture, history, philosophy (the metaphysical kind) and probably something else I forgot

Hope is a part of human nature and debating or arguing people off of their beliefs will never work regardless of the argument being right or wrong. Anyone trying to do so is rather reaffirming their own belief in something rather than trying to 'make the world rignt' notice the word right as my phrasing is aimed towards both religious and non religious people.

[crepesuzette]

When religion stops inciting hate and getting involved in political matters I will hate, until religion stops all its shit anti gay policies ill hate it. Everyone that preaches to me I will hate, I will hate it cause its a backward thinking organisation incites hate so a lot hate it, it's simple fucking thing. The fact most religions people tell me im going to hell pisses me off and therefore all Religion pisses me off!!

well are you getting these comments from students or adults? most kids our age don't care what religion you come from. Plus, it's pretty diverse out here so that's a good thing.

you realize that there are gay religious folks right? how do you think they feel when they're told the same as you?
i don't think you hate religion or people who use religion wrongly, but people who are being oppressive, like when they spew hate speech about different races or religions and all that crap. i cannot stand it either but there's really nothing i can do about it. plus, each generation is changing, so hopefully this hate will dissipate before we even know it.

[NeuroTiger]

If you are a kafir and dont beleive in your creator then why would he let you in heaven compared to the muslims that devoted their life to islam? Not all muslims are going to heaven though either. I am not god to tell you were you are going but according to the Quran if you are an unbeliever then you will be damned, but also it does depend if you heard about the religion but who in the world does not hear about relgions these days. Do you get what i mean? So its our duty as muslims to follow our religion and not count others sins. But its also our duty to make a dawa and let you know about islam.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree :)

[Emerald Dream]

Please do not post in threads with more than two months of inactivity. :locked: