Immigrants to the EU

[Guillermo]

So, I'm so sick of only hearing about the United States' Immigration policies all the time and how wrong/right they are. I want to hear about immigration to EU member states and how recently there have been anti-immigration stances from various EU states. It's already a well known fact that all EU countries' fertility and birth rates have plummeted ever since the 1970s. This means that Europe has a huge aging population and a shrinking work force population. In the long run, the economies in each European country will not be thriving due to a diminished work force and the older population will have to be taken care of through the government. Immigration can help to solve this problem by adding more people to the work force and also taking the low wage paying jobs that most native-Europeans do not take.

So, how do you think the EU should react to immigration? Should there be strict laws trying to limit immigration? Should immigration be more open to allow more immigrants to enter the EU? Also, do you believe that immigrants (most notably those from Arab states/Muslim backgrounds) pose a negligible problem in Europe and adjusting to European culture and values? In other words, do you believe that immigrants are 'killing' European culture?

[Hyper]

There are immigration quotas in many EU countries, maybe all of them I havent deeply read about the subject, but in general immigration is the same everywhere the vast majority of immigrants are people with little to no education. Many who immigrate to the EU come from countries with unemployment rates ranging from 25-50+ percent, many of them havent worked a day in their life for a paycheck and many wont in the EU since the welfare system is so strong in many countries, this differs though I know certain countries have different policies...

But think of it this way if you grew up in a country where half the peope are unemployed, where you have never worked a paying job, possibly lived through periods of famine maybe even civil war and the government gave you nothing and then you immigrated to a EU country where the government gets you a rental apartment and gives you 50-80% of the minimum wage maybe even more... Why would you strive to work? Less than minimum wage seems awful to most people born in such EU countries but to such immigrants its paradise.

Point being many of the hordes of immigrants in the EU are just extra strain on the social welfare systems of the country. Also many get invooved in illegal activities due to lack of education, language barriers, possible racial rejection and so on...

Right now immigration is a problem for Europe rather than a solution. You can never really have large scale immigration that provides a qualified work force and stops a population from aging. At least not in my opinion.

While I think in the US immigrants fill many low paying jobs Americans in general wont do in the EU due to the borders being open withing member states there is more of a phenomena where workers from new EU countries, Eastern Europe former USSR member states, go to the older EU countries with more established economies and fill many of the low paying or dirty jobs locals generally dont completely fill.

Though in the end I think the solution has to come from a sound immigration policy and increasing birth rates. A hybrid solution sort of. Right now in the world there is an odd phenomena where many of the countries with the highest birthrates are also some of the poorest 3rld or 2nd world countries... The fact that 1st world countries are struggling birth rates in my mind stems from many different social and religious factors that on their own could form a seperate topic all together if not two or more.

[Guillermo]

There are immigration quotas in many EU countries, maybe all of them I havent deeply read about the subject, but in general immigration is the same everywhere the vast majority of immigrants are people with little to no education. Many who immigrate to the EU come from countries with unemployment rates ranging from 25-50+ percent, many of them havent worked a day in their life for a paycheck and many wont in the EU since the welfare system is so strong in many countries, this differs though I know certain countries have different policies...

I'll agree with you that almost every migrant who comes to the EU does so because of the poor conditions in their home country. And most immigrants do seem to be less educated and take more low skilled jobs. But there's also another sort of different class of immigrants. Have you ever heard of the term brain drain? Brain drain occurs when highly educated and qualified people who live in less developed countries can't find jobs and so they want to obtain citizenship in first world countries to seek better opportunities with their advanced work skills. A majority of these immigrants tend to come from China and India.

But think of it this way if you grew up in a country where half the peope are unemployed, where you have never worked a paying job, possibly lived through periods of famine maybe even civil war and the government gave you nothing and then you immigrated to a EU country where the government gets you a rental apartment and gives you 50-80% of the minimum wage maybe even more... Why would you strive to work? Less than minimum wage seems awful to most people born in such EU countries but to such immigrants its paradise.

Hmm, but I've yet to find any stats on immigrants being unemployed in the EU. I've only seen stats dealing with them mostly likely to be be in poverty - but that's poverty in first world countries. It's not living on $2 a day.

Point being many of the hordes of immigrants in the EU are just extra strain on the social welfare systems of the country.

Yet, at the same time, if birthrates remain low, the older generation will be a strain on social welfare systems.

Also many get invooved in illegal activities due to lack of education, language barriers, possible racial rejection and so on...

Well, some do. But I'm not so sure that many or most of them do. Muslims are typically the group of people that have been targeted as having the most trouble adjusting to life in the EU.

Right now immigration is a problem for Europe rather than a solution. You can never really have large scale immigration that provides a qualified work force and stops a population from aging. At least not in my opinion.

Well, it's seen as a problem for a great many. Obviously you can't stop a population from aging, but you can fill the gaps in the working class. Because that's ideally what needs to happen.

While I think in the US immigrants fill many low paying jobs Americans in general wont do in the EU due to the borders being open withing member states there is more of a phenomena where workers from new EU countries, Eastern Europe former USSR member states, go to the older EU countries with more established economies and fill many of the low paying or dirty jobs locals generally dont completely fill.

But it's still not enough. Hell, Eastern Europe and former USSR states are having even bigger problems with their populations.

Though in the end I think the solution has to come from a sound immigration policy and increasing birth rates. A hybrid solution sort of.

Which is most definitely not as easy as it sounds. Sure, countries have made small efforts, but, it's not enough.

Right now in the world there is an odd phenomena where many of the countries with the highest birthrates are also some of the poorest 3rld or 2nd world countries...

Nah, it's not an odd phenomena - it's called Western medicine. Children aren't dying as much because of medicine from developed countries. People in third world countries think that they need a lot of children so they can help provide for the family.

The fact that 1st world countries are struggling birth rates in my mind stems from many different social and religious factors that on their own could form a seperate topic all together if not two or more.

Well, yeah that's true. Children are perceived as a burden in developed countries and are a drain. And religion definitely plays a role too. There was a study done in Germany that showed Christian families having more children than non-religious families. Education level also plays a huge part.

[Hyper]

Sorry I cant multi quote with my tablet, well I could but it would take a seeming eternity with all the touch screen pressing and annoyances so I'll just try to write a response without quoting...

Brain drain is the lowest part of immigration overall and you could say its more of an economics question than fighting declining birth rates via immigration. Highly qualified immigrants will often return home or simply acquire a citizenship for their careers. Those that do stay are obviously a great human resource asset to any country.

The Eastern Europe example I meant to bring up in the context of work and immigration. A big part of immigration is also between EU member states new states to old states mostly you see people work in the newer states for higher incomes and many end up migrating there in the longer run - that just means that the immigrants coming from outside the EU have a harder time getting into the workforce.

Racism or just xenophobia in general plays a part in it all as well... Personally I find that many Europeans of older member states are distrusting or disapproving of newer member states nationalities, it isnt a huge problem but its visible and I have experienced it slightly myself being from Eastern Europe.

Also I forgot to mention the new, poorer, member states citizens have a great edge on any outside of the EU immigrants: having no visa restrictions, easier integration overall and less difficulties passing the language and cultural barriers.

While declining birthrates will lead to the elderly becoming a further strain on the wellfare system bad immigration and integration will do these things exponentially and it is a problem that could be solved.

Good stats on work rates for immigrants wood be interesting to see a quick search found me this article mostly about Germany

http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-832278.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

In the article Germany is cited as the best country in the EU in terms of job prospects for immigrants but even then it is mentioned that German born nationals have lower unemployment rates than immigrants.

The issue of integration is more cultural and law related than anything else in my opinion... Ohh and indeed found a few things that said Islamic immigrants had higher rates of unemployment than any other immigrants.

But still the question of birthrates requires a solution of raising birth rates and immigration. While I think birth rates should be the main focus a globalist might think that immigration is the right solution as long as the immigrants become a part of the workforce... I just think that if immigration was used as the main fire extinguisher smaller nationalities with their culture and language will in time die out.