What's the bigger problem today: Racism or Sexism?

[Erasmus]

In my opinion, sexism is a larger concern than racism today. By and large, racism is gone from today's society, but sexism (mostly against women) is widespread.

For example, of all the Fortune 500 companies, only 4.2% of their CEOs are women (21 of the 500 positions are held by women).

[Lyra Heartstrings]

Sexism and racism?
Fuck that, homophobia.
It's rampant.

[Gigablue]

I really don't know. They are both big problems. I must disagree with the statement that racism is mostly gone in today's society. While we don't have things like segregation anymore, racism is still very real. Visible minorities have significantly higher unemployment rates and much lower incomes, despite being just as capable.

Sexism is very significant as well. Women make lower salaries for most jobs, and have difficulty getting hired to prestigious jobs. Many studies show that simply blinding for sex leads to a huge increase in women getting hired.

I don't think the question is even relevant. The fact that they exist is awful, and we need to fight against both, regardless of which is a bigger problem.

[teen.jpg]

Racism is WAY more widespread then sexism these days. But, like Lyra said, homophobia is a very close third.

[Mob Boss]

Wow, you pose an extremely difficult question that I'm not sure any one person can answer correctly. I think it generally changes based on different perspectives and experiences. Let's all go ahead and agree that discrimination based on physicalities is just plain wrong.

I don't know for sure which is worse -- maybe which is more prevalent, but both are disgusting, societal ills, amongst many other things.


On one hand we have racism. Racism -- contrary to the popular misconception that it's dissipated -- is still going on in many parts of the world today. Racism has been the driving force behind genocides and wars all throughout history. Racism dates back to ancient times; it was believed that breeding within racial constraints promoted human survival. And in some aspects it did (such as requiring darker skin near the equator), humans weren't evolved, so survival, no matter the cost, was prime concern. That was ancient times, we've evolved, the world has developed. Because of that though, I believe people began to think their own race was incoherently more superior than others. That naive thinking has led to hundreds of years of oppression. Racism has decreased, but it still exists. There are still victims of racism today. Of course it's more subtle versions of racism in comparison to that of the past, but it exists. People of all races and backgrounds, use and sell drugs at remarkably similar rates, yet it's a proven fact there are more African-American men behind bars than Caucasian men. Why is that? Bottom line is racism happens everywhere, but many turn a blind eye to it. It still impacts many lives today.

On the other hand we have sexism. Gender discrimination seems much more socially acceptable these days than racism, though. While I'm sure there is proof of occupational racism, sexism seems to be disgustingly acceptable at places of work. Women are still 20% less likely to get a job in comparison to their male counterparts. Women also get paid less. Women are commonly forced into the "proper" gender roles, and I don't believe they are taken as seriously. Though women are in a much better place today than years ago, we still live in a male-dominant world today.

I honestly cannot answer this question, I don't know which is the lesser of two evils. That both still exist today is just sickening, but they do. We have come a long way than the racism and sexism we recognize in the past, though.

[Lost in the Echo]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which of them are a bigger problem, because racism and sexism are both unfair.
I really don't understand why everyone can't be treated equally.
It's bullshit. You should be able to do whatever you want to in life, regardless of your sex, race, etc.
We're all human.

[Jess]

They're both big issues, but I think sexism is a bit bigger, especially in some countries.

[Cicero]

I don't really know. This isn't an issue of which is most important, cause both are equal.

Racism is actually very much prevalent. An example is how people think republicans are rednecks and liberals are hippies. I believe we are starting to address sexism much strongly now, that we have forgotten about racism. Another example of racism is how Latinos get a discount for colleges/unis/etc.

If we want to truly remove racism, we must STOP the special treatment of races. If a university happens to be all white, leave it. If a university happens to be all black, leave it. There should be no requirement of how much of one race could be in a school. Like there has to be a percentage of Latinos, blacks, and Asians.

I also find it personally racist how we celebrate Latino heritage month and black history month, yet there is nothing for Italians, or Germans, or English. Stop with those special months, that's just making more racism and that's just pointing out the color of someone's skin.

[Skyline]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which of them are a bigger problem, because racism and sexism are both unfair.
I really don't understand why everyone can't be treated equally.
It's bullshit. You should be able to do whatever you want to in life, regardless of your sex, race, etc.
We're all human.

I fucking love this one! We all came from a woman's womb... We should all be treated as equals...

[Human]

why would we have to choose between them? they're as bad as each other. everyone should be complete equals.

[Sugaree]

Neither. They're both horrible isms. Besides, sexism and racism aren't as rampant as they were a century ago, why would they present a major problem?

[Bath]

I think identifying which is the "bigger problem" is pointless. I think sexism and racism are both alive and whichever is bigger is subjective, depending on the life of the person, and the importance is also subjective depending on the life and gender/race.

To me, sexism is more relevant because I am a white female. But I do not think it's more important than fighting to end racism because that problem effects just as many people.

[ItsJustJack]

would easily say racism as racism is now used as a joke or a cuss used in many 'cuss fights' which is sickening how something so serious and hurtful has now become something that is used against you. so yes i would say racism

[Sugaree]

would easily say racism as racism is now used as a joke or a cuss used in many 'cuss fights' which is sickening how something so serious and hurtful has now become something that is used against you. so yes i would say racism

What's wrong with a racist joke?

[ImCoolBeans]

What's wrong with a racist joke?

What's wrong with making fun of people with disabilities, then?
It's the same premise. Making fun of something that somebody cannot help and is a part of them. Some people may take offense to it while others do not.

[Dooby the potato god]

Why doesn't everyone just bloody get along?!

[Sugaree]

Why doesn't everyone just bloody get along?!

Because it's too funny NOT to.

[Apollo.]

Because it's too funny NOT to.

I totally agree with this my boyfriend is Chinese and I'm white, the amount of times we have been on the floor laughing because of someone else's reaction when I call him a "slanty eyed yellow boy" or if he tells me I'm "see through" because I'm white is unreal!

It all depends on the context of the joke if you mean it in a bad way then it's not acceptable, if like in my case you know the person you are talking to/about doesn't mind and can take it and give it back then it's fine

[ItsJustJack]

I totally agree with this my boyfriend is Chinese and I'm white, the amount of times we have been on the floor laughing because of someone else's reaction when I call him a "slanty eyed yellow boy" or if he tells me I'm "see through" because I'm white is unreal!

It all depends on the context of the joke if you mean it in a bad way then it's not acceptable, if like in my case you know the person you are talking to/about doesn't mind and can take it and give it back then it's fine

Funny story an also well said about the context, I agree.

[shadymc]

both are big problems, and racism isn't gone from our society, its just ignored, hidden and denied. Even people that say they are against racism, are sometimes racist and they don't even realize it because they have all these stereotypical ideas planted in their heads by people around them.

[azorne]

Sexism is much, much harder to prove.

[JoeHillsTSD]

This is pretty funny because my AP Language & Composition class just started a unit about sexism and gender.

I honestly think for the most part, racism has died. Of course, we still have those idiots out there who are still being racist and havent gotten with the 21st century.

Sexism is a bigger problem, not only is it hard to prove, but it is socially acceptable. Society makes it easier for sexism to happen.

[Desuetude]

It's pretty pointless attempting to decipher which one is 'worse'. Just because one might be a bit more prominent in one place that doesn't mean that's the same everywhere in the world. Both are still happening in today's society but it's fair to say that with traditions changing both are a lot better off than they have been in the past. It's annoying that people are trying to pick apart which is the bigger concern.

OP, you say racism is gone from todays society yet I'm pretty certain you're caucasion (correct me if I'm wrong) and I very much doubt you've been in a situation where you've ever experienced racism. Sure I think sexism is a lot more 'accepted' so to speak because females make up a large portion of the population and I'm pretty sure where ever you go it's likely you'll get 50/50 males to females. The traditions and expectations of females are getting a lot better, a lot of woman work when they have children and aren't necessarily expected to stay home and be a house wife. While everyone knows about sexism e.g. woman go and make me a sandwich, racism is a bit more hidden. They're both equally stupid ways of making fun of someone but it's unlikely we'll ever completely get rid of either. You're always going to get people that think they're better than others and some people will use any difference they can find to make someone else feel like utter shit. That's just how humans are and how society will carry on to be and there's nothing we can do to make a major change.

[toobigforlife]

In my opinion, sexism is a larger concern than racism today. By and large, racism is gone from today's society, but sexism (mostly against women) is widespread.

For example, of all the Fortune 500 companies, only 4.2% of their CEOs are women (21 of the 500 positions are held by women).

Racism is what from today???? you must not know what happens to blacks in everyday life because it is still here and present!! as a black female myself I can tell you that your statement was not thought through, and as ThePretender said if you not of a different race other than white then you don't know what all the minorities go through, just last year a young boy named Trayvon Martin was shot and killed because the man though he had a gun when all he had in his had was some skittles and Arizona Tea, so do your research first because say the wrong thing and people will think your ignorant!!!!!!

[saturnine]

There are always going to be major problems that lie in society. The matter of importance, however, stems from your own personal views. For instance, f you are sexist, sexism is not a problem. But you are not racist, and you find that most people that surround you are. That, for you, is a problem. It is the same for homophobia and more.
The whole feminist move fascinates me but the idea makes me upset because many, even myself prior, have bashed the idea of feminism and harass the idea of women's rights. One thing I do not agree on is social equality for women against men. Fighting for it is a waste of time, simply because of science (just think about Bateman's Principle) and one gender will be viewed as superior toward the other. Social equality will have to go against multiple religions and because religion has to do with faith, it is hard to see how this will change.
Racism will exist for as long as time continues. America has had multiple waves of immigrants and every time this happens, millions become what is defined as "racist" and that will continue and repeat through time. It goes from blacks, Asians, Jewish, Mexicans, and more. It will continue. Again, religion is a major factor and that is hard to change, as stated.
In conclusion, the opinion on which is the bigger problem lies in personal view. If you are racist, it isn't a problem. If you are sexist, it isn't a problem. I am neither, but I find that due to history and the past I can predict that both problems will never cease to exist. Accept this.

[WalkingOnDisaster]

Not sure. I think it depends on where you go.
I know someone who goes to China and (this is not to be taken offensively) he is VERY white. He goes to China for his job a lot. He's frequently called names and such for being white and surrounded by the Chinese.
But in places like... I'm gonna say India, women are abused sexually and looked at as mere tools of reproduction and pleasure, not as humans.
Really, it all depends on where in the world.

[Allbutanillusion]

All I am going to say right at this moment is that a lot of people play the racism /sexism card to get what they want.

[Harry Smith]

All I am going to say right at this moment is that a lot of people play the racism sexism card to get what they want.

This is the typical way to dismiss both racism and sexism. yes there are cases where people cite either for incorrect reasons but simply stating that people to do it to get what they want is a massive overstatement. Both are still real problems in our society

[baseballfan]

Both big issues to this day

Sad but true


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Prodigy17]

All I am going to say right at this moment is that a lot of people play the racism /sexism card to get what they want.

Agree with that. Should be obvious but if racism/sexism is such a problem then how
1/ did a woman become PM in the UK 30 years ago serve for 20 years deal with the (male) heads of the USA and USSR and help to bring about the end of the cold war and the fall of communism
2/ a black guy get to be president of the USA. If anything being black helped him.

Racism/sexism is only a problem if you're a loser - you'll always blame somebody else.

[Harry Smith]

Agree with that. Should be obvious but if racism/sexism is such a problem then how
1/ did a woman become PM in the UK 30 years ago serve for 20 years deal with the (male) heads of the USA and USSR and help to bring about the end of the cold war and the fall of communism
2/ a black guy get to be president of the USA. If anything being black helped him.

Racism/sexism is only a problem if you're a loser - you'll always blame somebody else.

So you think that if you lose you shouldn't play the race card? Look at the whole civil right movements, the suffragettes, the LA race riots, the zoo suit riots. All of those issues revolved around the fact that women and or Black people did not have the same rights. The protested to get equal rights and be on equal grounds. Its not about winning or losing.

I'm not saying there is complete sexism, that's untrue. women may account for only 25 percent of the upper-level managers in large corporations. And although half of the employees in the largest, most prestigious firms around the United States may be women, perhaps as few as 5 percent or less actually hold senior positions. Also look at the issue of female Bishops- an example of Sexism is STILL A PROBLEM

[Prodigy17]

Well I'm a white straight male - if I don't get what I want out of life it's for one simple reason. Because I'm not good enough so I try harder.

If a woman or a black or a gay person doesn't get what they want out of life it's because of racism/sexism/homophobia etc. We've had woman or black leaders in the UK, USA and Germany which proves that racism/sexism isn't a problem.

Maybe the fact that only 5% of senior positions in US companies (din't check but assuming it's true) are held by women is just because the women aren't good enough?

[Harry Smith]

Oh look there's the boy on his bike cycling down the road as the neighbours lift of there hat's- we are not in the fucking 1950's mate. You sound like something from UKIP.

I would love you to tell that to Alan turing-the person who invented the modern computer. I bet he never worked hard at all in his life. Thats sarcasm there mate- he worked hard his whole life, in fact it was as a result of homophobia why he killed himself. Look at all the teens who have killed themself as a result. I'm sure 99% of these forum will disagree with you mate- Racism, sexism and homophbia are all still problems. Wake up

[Prodigy17]

I agree about Turing - tragic story. But times have changed since then. If Turing had lived today don't you think he would be a multi millionaire and very well respected by society?

If racism is still a problem how could a black guy possibly become president of the USA?

If sexism was a problem how could a woman be PM of Britain not even today but 30 fucking years ago?

Maybe you should wake up and recognise that opportunities are there for all

[Harry Smith]

I agree about Turing - tragic story. But times have changed since then. If Turing had lived today don't you think he would be a multi millionaire and very well respected by society?

If racism is still a problem how could a black guy possibly become president of the USA?

If sexism was a problem how could a woman be PM of Britain not even today but 30 fucking years ago?

Maybe you should wake up and recognize that opportunities are there for all

Obama has had very fierce opposition, people say that he isn't american. He had to release his birth certificate to prove he was a US citizen. Some american's think that because he is black that he somehow was born in Africa.

Just because a women becomes prime minister doesn't mean all sexism is gone? That's a fucking stupid argument, a bit like saying once civil rights were introduced racism was gone. It has existed in south Africa for the last 100 year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19636473 Example of Racism in todays world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/20/church-of-england-no-women-bishops

Example of women being denied an OPPORTUNITY in life. I know you'll try and deny these sources but they both show racism and sexism in society

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Honestly, there both so bad i dont know which is worse.
Racism- Oh trust me, when you live in a Texas town, you hear racist remarks ALL THE TIME.
Sexism- Still happens. In fact, society promotes masculinity.

[Prodigy17]

Obama has had very fierce opposition

Of course he did. Clinton had fierce opposition because of his dubious past, Bush because of his background, Reagan because he was old etc.

Romney tried to become president but failed because he happened to be rich - does that mean America is biased agaisnt rich people?

Doesn't every President have very fierce opposition before he gets elected?

Just because a women becomes prime minister doesn't mean all sexism is gone?

so what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was gone - 2 women prime ministers, or 3 or 4 or 20?

[Harry Smith]

Of course he did. Clinton had fierce opposition because of his dubious past, Bush because of his background, Reagan because he was old etc.

Romney tried to become president but failed because he happened to be rich - does that mean America is biased agaisnt rich people?

Doesn't every President have very fierce opposition before he gets elected?



so what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was gone - 2 women prime ministers, or 3 or 4 or 20?

I was pointing out Obama had opposition purely because he was black, I've heard people make racist comments where I live about both Obama and Black people in general, racism still exits mate.

Also Did you not read the fucking source, sexism still exists. Your delusional mate, sexism still exists. A female prime minister shows that general attitudes have changed. Sexism is still present

[PinkFloyd]

I think racism is really bad... not so much towards African Americans, but towards muslims. . . I mean tempers are still pretty high even after 11 years. People need to realize that those extremest groups are very uncommen!

[Prodigy17]

I was pointing out Obama had opposition purely because he was black

Nobody's denying that. Clinton had opposition because he couldn't keep his dick in his trousers, Reagan had opposition because he was old, Bush had opposition because he was a backward Texan and so on.

Everyone who's stood for president has had extreme, hurtful and personal opposition for whatever "failings" there might be in their character. If it's not their race it will be their finances, their sexual preferences, their family background, their age etc

The point is the guys above all won despite that opposition. Are you saying that racism will only end when a black candidate is elected without any opposition?

Sexism is still present

I'll ask again - what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was not still present?

nd just a PS being black actually helped Obama - it didn't hurt him. When being black helps you is that still racism?

[Apollo.]

This is like asking "if someone sticks a double barrel shotgun to yout head which barrel is the bigger problem?" The answer is they are both an equal problem and neither should still be present in modern society sadly they are.

[Harry Smith]

Nobody's denying that. Clinton had opposition because he couldn't keep his dick in his trousers, Reagan had opposition because he was old, Bush had opposition because he was a backward Texan and so on.

Everyone who's stood for president has had extreme, hurtful and personal opposition for whatever "failings" there might be in their character. If it's not their race it will be their finances, their sexual preferences, their family background, their age etc

The point is the guys above all won despite that opposition. Are you saying that racism will only end when a black candidate is elected without any opposition?

I'll ask again - what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was not still present?



This would have to happen in reversal .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/20/church-of-england-no-women-bishops

Women bishops would be a step forward. I ask you do you really think that sexism is gone despite a source above which highlights sexism?

[Prodigy17]

OK, so you're only talking about racism/sexism in religion not in the wide world?

[Harry Smith]

OK, so you're only talking about racism/sexism in religion not in the wide world?

It if is in religon then it is in the wide world, this is evidence of Sexism in our society. Your actually stupid I don't even care anymore. This shows that Sexism exists, you deny that racism exists, you deny that sexism exists and you classed all gays as being aggressive preachers. Wake up mate, you've been drinking too much.

Sexism exists- accept it. It exists in the church and many other places. Just ask women.

In many countries, labour market discrimination – i.e. the unequal treatment of equally productive individuals only because they belong to a specific group – is still a crucial factor inflating disparities in employment and the quality of job opportunities [...] Evidence presented in this edition of the Employment Outlook suggests that about 8% of the variation in gender employment gaps and 30% of the variation in gender wage gaps across OECD countries can be explained by discriminatory practices in the labour market.

Another source for you that I'm sure you'll deny. You just can't handle being wrong can you

[Prodigy17]

It if is in religon then it is in the wide world, this is evidence of Sexism in our society.

OK well I can't discuss religion but I can discuss the wide world.

Lets look at the facts
a woman has become prime minister of the UK yet you say sexism exists
a black man has become president of the usa yet you say racism exists

Quote all the sources you like but these are facts - are you denying either of them?

In simple terms Harry how the fuck did a black guy get to be president of a racist country?

[havingfun]

I think that both still exist but they have evolved into different forms. By that I mean racism and sexism have become a 2 way street. Look at commercials-how many of them are out there where there is a smart woman belittling her dumb boob of a husband? That is just one example.

Racism has also become a 2 way street with affirmative action. My dad told me about how he was unable to get any grants to go to college even though my grandfather was laid off for most of the year before, yet his black friend did even though they had the same income.

But I am seeing more "Religionism" where there is more hate being portrayed against those who follow one faith or another. You even mention that you believe in God and suddenly you are accused of "Shoving it down your throat" and that you hate gay people. People who are true followers of Jesus do not hate anybody regardless of who they are, even if they may disagree about other lifestyles. Not all people fall into the stereotype.

[Apollo.]

OK well I can't discuss religion but I can discuss the wide world.

Lets look at the facts
a woman has become prime minister of the UK yet you say sexism exists
a black man has become president of the usa yet you say racism exists

Quote all the sources you like but these are facts - are you denying either of them?

In simple terms Harry how the fuck did a black guy get to be president of a racist country?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18503972

Above is a link to an example of modern day sexism and that was going on in a government organisation in the UK.

Racism and sexism still exist of course they do, to claim otherwise is moronic. Just because a problem isnt hugely publicised doesn't mean it doesn't exist, although these problems arent as widespread they still exist. You are either very naive if you think.they dont exist or you are just trying to create strawman arguments with Harry

[Prodigy17]

You are either very naive if you think.they dont exist or you are just trying to create strawman arguments with Harry

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point to the fact that the longest serving prime minister in the UK was in fact a woman. Who has the best source?

Bottom line Harry. If you had a daughter would you tell her
a/ the fact you're born with boobs means you won't get what you want because sexism still exists
or
b/ the fact that you're born with boobs is irrelevant to your future success. Go after what you want and if you're good enough you'll get it

I sincerely hope you would tell your daughter b/ - if you don't then in my view you're a crap human being.

[Apollo.]

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point to the fact that the longest serving prime minister in the UK was in fact a woman. Who has the best source?

Bottom line Harry. If you had a daughter would you tell her
a/ the fact you're born with boobs means you won't get what you want because sexism still exists
or
b/ the fact that you're born with boobs is irrelevant to your future success. Go after what you want and if you're good enough you'll get it

I sincerely hope you would tell your daughter b/ - if you don't then in my view you're a crap human being.

You see it wasnt personal until now, but since you continue to stereotype homosexuals and make gay people seem like a group of irritating bastards it is now personal. You are clearly homophobic but would not like to admit it.

The fact that there was a female prime minister does NOT mean sexism no longer exists, if there is one sexist person left in society it still exists! Your "source" is totally unrelated to the argument, just because most people arent doesn't mean sexism doesn't exist, I mean for fuck sake it's like your 5.

By your logic racism doesn't exist because Lincoln freed the slaves, your idiocy baffles me!

[Prodigy17]

By your logic racism doesn't exist because Lincoln freed the slaves, your idiocy baffles me!

By my logic the fact that a black man is president of the USA proves something - doesn't it prove anything to you? Is there not a tiny bit of your brain that says wow we've elected a black guy to the top job in the western world - maybe racism is a bit old now?

As a gay guy you will come up against prejudice in this horrible racist/homophobic/sexist world but are you going to let that limit what you can achieve? I think you probably are which is very sad but it's your life, I just hope you don't drag other people down with your outdated thinking.

I would also like to know - as asked above - what you will tell your daughter (obviously hypothetical daughter) about sexism . Will you tell her sexism will limit what she can achieve?

[Apollo.]

stay on By my logic the fact that a black man is president of the USA proves something - doesn't it prove anything to you? Is there not a tiny bit of your brain that says wow we've elected a black guy to the top job in the western world - maybe racism is a bit old now?

As a gay guy you will come up against prejudice in this horrible racist/homophobic/sexist world but are you going to let that limit what you can achieve? I think you probably are which is very sad but it's your life, I just hope you don't drag other people down with your outdated thinking.

I would also like to know - as asked above - what you will tell your daughter (obviously hypothetical daughter) about sexism . Will you tell her sexism will limit what she can achieve?

It proves many things but nothing relevant to the debate, you are claiming racism doesn't exist when it clearly fucking does! I have a Chinese boyfriend and I have witnessed racism so evidently it fucking exists!!!

You are creating yet another strawman argument which will not work with me! I never said these things affect me but they do exist and you have claimed they dont! You constantly try and avoid the fact that you are wrong!

As for your totally unrelated question of it would be B. You seem to be uable of staying on topic. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Also why would it have to be a "hypothetical daughter" gay people have ways of having.children and a family as well you know. Your simply ignorant

[Prodigy17]

Also why would it have to be a "hypothetical daughter" gay people have ways of having.children and a family as well you know. Your simply ignorant

Hypothetical because I, and I assume you, are way below the age when we would consider having kids. This is the problem with you/Harry - you see insults in everything where none exist.

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other. I wish you all the best :)

[Apollo.]

Hypothetical because I, and I assume you, are way below the age when we would consider having kids. This is the problem with you/Harry - you see insults in everything where none exist.

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other. I wish you all the best :)

What is the point of getting so deep into a debate and then backing out like that. I am losing faith in VT rapidly

[Prodigy17]

I wasn't backing out - you told me it was irrelevant to mention Obama after you brought Lincoln up so I pretty much lost track of what we were supposed to be debating. I thought Obama was very relevant to any debate on racism.

If you want to state exactly what is relevant to this particular debate I'll engage with you/Harry

[Apollo.]

I wasn't backing out - you told me it was irrelevant to mention Obama after you brought Lincoln up so I pretty much lost track of what we were supposed to be debating. I thought Obama was very relevant to any debate on racism.

If you want to state exactly what is relevant to this particular debate I'll engage with you/Harry

As I have stated several times, the fact you claim racism and sexism does.not.exist is the point of the debate but you disregard every point I make and dont acknowledge any of them.

[Harry Smith]

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point to the fact that the longest serving prime minister in the UK was in fact a woman. Who has the best source?

Bottom line Harry. If you had a daughter would you tell her
a/ the fact you're born with boobs means you won't get what you want because sexism still exists
or
b/ the fact that you're born with boobs is irrelevant to your future success. Go after what you want and if you're good enough you'll get it

I sincerely hope you would tell your daughter b/ - if you don't then in my view you're a crap human being.

Gay thinking- are you some sort of Fascist. My thinking isn't direct to my sexuality, me and Apollo don't have the same views just because we are gay. I would tell my daughter that both men and women face problems in life due to there gender, and that she should overcome them.

Racism still exists, Obama becoming elected doesn't end racism. Just like the civil rights act didn't end it. Your Blind

[Prodigy17]

Gay thinking- are you some sort of Fascist. My thinking isn't direct to my sexuality, me and Apollo don't have the same views just because we are gay. I would tell my daughter that both men and women face problems in life due to there gender, and that she should overcome them.

Finally something we can agree on.

So why is it so important to you/apollo to try and prove that racism/sexism still exist? Seems to be that by your definition racism/sexism will never end to your satisfaction in our lifetime?

[Harry Smith]

Finally something we can agree on.

So why is it so important to you/apollo to try and prove that racism/sexism still exist? Seems to be that by your definition racism/sexism will never end to your satisfaction in our lifetime?

we don't agree on this issue, you said all Gay's think the same- that is a homophobic comment- please withdraw it

[Prodigy17]

I said it seemed we agreed on the daughter issue from earlier posts.

What possible offence have you managed to take from that?

[Harry Smith]

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point to the fact that the longest serving prime minister in the UK was in fact a woman. Who has the best source?

Bottom line Harry. If you had a daughter would you tell her
a/ the fact you're born with boobs means you won't get what you want because sexism still exists
or
b/ the fact that you're born with boobs is irrelevant to your future success. Go after what you want and if you're good enough you'll get it

I sincerely hope you would tell your daughter b/ - if you don't then in my view you're a crap human being.

Point A suggests sexism stops women succeeding, where in fact it only hinders them. We disagree on this issue, you think that it dosen't exist- I do.

Also... you said all Gay's think the same- that is a homophobic comment- please withdraw it

[Prodigy17]

My point was exactly that sexism did not stop women succeeding - which is why I mentioned Mrs Thatcher as an example of a woman who had succeeded despite "sexism." If you asked her what had hindered her in life I doubt she would say the fact I was born with boobs.

I said you and Apollo think the same - that's 2 people. You said earlier on that you knew you could count on Apollo to back you up and he does seem to share your views on everything in this thread. It's also fair to assume that you or he would never disagree with each other in this thread and neither of you would agree with anything I said on principle.

So *in the context of this thread* is it not fair to treat you both as the same person?

[Harry Smith]

so what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was gone - 2 women prime ministers, or 3 or 4 or 20?

You imply here that I should believe Sexism is gone, meaning you believe that Sexism is gone because we had a female prime minister

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point

Once again you think sexism dosen't exist, and 'gay thinking' you sound like a fascist. You imply that all Gay's think the same- that is a homophobic comment- please withdraw it.



so what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was gone - 2 women prime ministers, or 3 or 4 or 20?

You imply here that I should believe Sexism is gone, meaning you believe that Sexism is gone because we had a female prime minister

Not just Harry - as you and he both exhibit "gay thinking" I treat you both as the same person.

You post a link to yet another whiney article to "prove" sexism exists - I point

Once again you think sexism dosen't exist, and 'gay thinking' you sound like a fascist. You imply that all Gay's think the same- that is a homophobic comment- please withdraw it.

Please use the multi quote function instead of double posting. -StoppingTime

[Prodigy17]

I said you and Apollo thought the same - which you both do

I also said you both exhbited "gay thinking" which means you think you're victims.

I would never and have never suggested that "gay thinking" is universal among gays - I'm happy to clarify that if it wasn't clear.

Is that clear enough?

[Harry Smith]

I said you and Apollo thought the same - which you both do

I also said you both exhbited "gay thinking" which means you think you're victims.

I would never and have never suggested that "gay thinking" is universal among gays - I'm happy to clarify that if it wasn't clear.

Is that clear enough?

I don't think I'm a victim you arrogant prat. Don't even try and tell me about my personal views or life. You have no fucking idea.

So Gay thinking is not universal among gays- your argument is an oxymoron. Gay thinking doesn't exist at all but in your fucked up mind it exists as some sort of storm front theory

[Apollo.]

I said you and Apollo thought the same - which you both do

I also said you both exhbited "gay thinking" which means you think you're victims.

I would never and have never suggested that "gay thinking" is universal among gays - I'm happy to clarify that if it wasn't clear.

Is that clear enough?

Are you fucking serious?! Gay thinking isn't universal amongst gays? Why the fuck do you call It gay thinking? Seriously I'm pissing myself laughing here at the sheer retardedness of that post!

[Twilly F. Sniper]

I don't think I'm a victim you arrogant prat. Don't even try and tell me about my personal views or life. You have no fucking idea.

So Gay thinking is not universal among gays- your argument is an oxymoron. Gay thinking doesn't exist at all but in your fucked up mind it exists as some sort of storm front theory

Thats exactly right.
The mind that thought that is fucked up.

[Prodigy17]

I don't think I'm a victim you arrogant prat. Don't even try and tell me about my personal views or life. You have no fucking idea.

So Gay thinking is not universal among gays- your argument is an oxymoron

OK, let me try and make it clear.
Some whites exhibit "racist thinking" - agreed?
is "racist thinking" universal amongst whites?

Hopefully from that you can grasp the difference between some and all.

I pretty much know your personal views from your posts on here - they're not hard to decipher. I also know that your need to resort to insults when under pressure means your IQ is quite low and/or you have severe problems with the written word. Obviously you might express yourself better verbally - that I don't know.

[Apollo.]

OK, let me try and make it clear.
Some whites exhibit "racist thinking" - agreed?
is "racist thinking" universal amongst whites?

Hopefully from that you can grasp the difference between some and all.

I pretty much know your personal views from your posts on here - they're not hard to decipher. I also know that your need to resort to insults when under pressure means your IQ is quite low and/or you have severe problems with the written word. Obviously you might express yourself better verbally - that I don't know.

No no, it's universal between racist whites. The way you said it means that white people would have to have "white thinking" for that to be meaningful here.

Also the fact you have just said some whites exhibit racist thinking totally contradicts your earlier argument that racism doesn't exist!

The fact you are calling Harry out on his debating techniques is ironic as they surpass your abilities hugely.

[Harry Smith]

OK, let me try and make it clear.
Some whites exhibit "racist thinking" - agreed?
is "racist thinking" universal amongst whites?

Hopefully from that you can grasp the difference between some and all.

I pretty much know your personal views from your posts on here - they're not hard to decipher. I also know that your need to resort to insults when under pressure means your IQ is quite low and/or you have severe problems with the written word. Obviously you might express yourself better verbally - that I don't know.

Comparing views of a homosexual and racist person is pretty murky water mate. They are completely different.

And when you insult my sexuality of course I'm going to be slightly annoyed and please you arrogant fuck don't comment on my IQ. I don't have a problem with the English word, just did got an high A on my English Language GCSE Exam, I don't have a low IQ. Also once again you have no right to make such degrading comments.

Also please mate .... Withdraw your comments about gay thinking

[Prodigy17]

Comparing views of a homosexual and racist person is pretty murky water mate. They are completely different.

With hindsight I'll concede that was a badly chosen example. Hopefully it did make the point though. Apologies for any offence it may have caused - obviously I wasn't throwing you in with racists.

And when you insult my sexuality of course I'm going to be slightly annoyed and please you arrogant fuck don't comment on my IQ.

If you really had a high IQ/excellent command of the language you wouldn't resort to name calling when I suggested you didn't rather you'd let your arguments speak for themselves. What do you think I'd say if you questioned my IQ/language ability?

I've not insulted your sexuality - totally up to you who you sleep with.

[Harry Smith]

With hindsight I'll concede that was a badly chosen example. Hopefully it did make the point though. Apologies for any offence it may have caused - obviously I wasn't throwing you in with racists.



If you really had a high IQ/excellent command of the language you wouldn't resort to name calling when I suggested you didn't rather you'd let your arguments speak for themselves. What do you think I'd say if you questioned my IQ/language ability?

I've not insulted your sexuality - totally up to you who you sleep with.

1) As Apollo mentioned before, you said racism doesn't exist yet you clearly mention about people holding racist views. Contradiction much?

2) I'm passionate about the subject, you just come across as arrogant.

[Apollo.]

With hindsight I'll concede that was a badly chosen example. Hopefully it did make the point though. Apologies for any offence it may have caused - obviously I wasn't throwing you in with racists.



If you really had a high IQ/excellent command of the language you wouldn't resort to name calling when I suggested you didn't rather you'd let your arguments speak for themselves. What do you think I'd say if you questioned my IQ/language ability?

I've not insulted your sexuality - totally up to you who you sleep with.

Have you totally stopped addressing my statements because you have no replies?

[Prodigy17]

No no, it's universal between racist whites. The way you said it means that white people would have to have "white thinking" for that to be meaningful here.

Also the fact you have just said some whites exhibit racist thinking totally contradicts your earlier argument that racism doesn't exist!.

I'll concede the first point - it was very badly worded.

I don't disagree there are racists in the world - the BNP and your KKK etc. My point was that such people would not prevent a black person from achieving.

[Apollo.]

I'll concede the first point - it was very badly worded.

I don't disagree there are racists in the world - the BNP and your KKK etc. My point was that such people would not prevent a black person from achieving.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'll happily sit back and allow the debate to continue without me for now.

[Prodigy17]

Considering the time and that we all seem to be in the UK probably best we all call it a day :)

[Harry Smith]

I'll concede the first point - it was very badly worded.

I don't disagree there are racists in the world - the BNP and your KKK etc. My point was that such people would not prevent a black person from achieving.

So you admit there are racists yet...



We've had woman or black leaders in the UK, USA and Germany which proves that racism/sexism isn't a problem.

(1) First time you said racism wasn't a problem


In simple terms Harry how the fuck did a black guy get to be president of a racist country?
(2) second time


If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other. I wish you all the best :)
(3) Third time
.

So why is it so important to you/apollo to try and prove that racism/sexism still exist? Seems to be that by your definition racism/sexism will never end to your satisfaction in our lifetime?
(4) fourth time you mention that racism doesn't exist. Your flip flopping on your ideas mate, you just change your opinion when your argument starts to crumble

[xmojox]

I hate all isms equally. Hell, I hate hate. We are a diverse species, and our diversity is what's enabled us to survive and thrive. We should celebrate it!



Racism/sexism is only a problem if you're a loser - you'll always blame somebody else.

Reality check, sir. Racism is only a problem if one happens to be a minority. Sexism is only a problem if one happens to be a woman. Are you saying that all minorities and all women are losers? I think, perhaps, it would do you a world of good to read and re-read what you type before clicking the post button. To suggest that racism and sexism don't exist causes me to wonder in which world you reside, because it certainly isn't this one.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Reality check, sir. Racism is only a problem if one happens to be a minority. Sexism is only a problem if one happens to be a woman. Are you saying that all minorities and all women are losers? I think, perhaps, it would do you a world of good to read and re-read what you type before clicking the post button. To suggest that racism and sexism don't exist causes me to wonder in which world you reside, because it certainly isn't this one.

The problem is; it makes no sense why that is.

[xmojox]

The problem is; it makes no sense why that is.

I agree completely. I was, most likely in vain, attempting to point out to the gentleman that simply because a thing doesn't affect him, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I reject the notion that we are stuck with these attitudes, as well. Eventually, we will have a society in which all people are equal. I believe that it gets better with each generation, but, we still have a long way to go. Society changes slowly, but, it does, and is, changing.

[Prodigy17]

fourth time you mention that racism doesn't exist. Your flip flopping on your ideas mate, you just change your opinion when your argument starts to crumble

Sorry for late reply, busy over the weekend.

Follow along Harry - I've never denied the existince of racists. My whole point was that if you're black or female racism/sexism won't prevent you achieveing what you want. Hence references to Obama and Mrs Thatcher.

Simple analogy
Does mugging exist in the world - yes
is mugging so prevelant in the world that it effects your life - no

See what I'm saying?

[xmojox]

OK, let me try and make it clear.
Some whites exhibit "racist thinking" - agreed?
is "racist thinking" universal amongst whites?

Hopefully from that you can grasp the difference between some and all.

I pretty much know your personal views from your posts on here - they're not hard to decipher. I also know that your need to resort to insults when under pressure means your IQ is quite low and/or you have severe problems with the written word. Obviously you might express yourself better verbally - that I don't know.

Your analogy is flawed. While all gays are gay, not all whites are racist.

[Harry Smith]

Sorry for late reply, busy over the weekend.

Follow along Harry - I've never denied the existince of racists. My whole point was that if you're black or female racism/sexism won't prevent you achieveing what you want. Hence references to Obama and Mrs Thatcher.

Simple analogy
Does mugging exist in the world - yes
is mugging so prevelant in the world that it effects your life - no

See what I'm saying?

Mugging does effect my life, I've been mugged 4 times, my mate's been mugged at knife point, I make a point not to carry my phone around due to the high crime rates where I live, I don't go near the council flats, if I see a gang I'll cross the road. I don't live in an ivory tower,

[jayyy-lmao]

Sexism and racism?
Fuck that, homophobia.
It's rampant.

I agree. Homophobia is more common than racism and sexism combined.

[Harry Smith]

a black man has become president of the usa yet you say racism exists



You imply here that racism does not exist, look at what you said. You accused me of saying racism exists, which in turn means that you think it does not exist



The point is the guys above all won despite that opposition. Are you saying that racism will only end when a black candidate is elected without any opposition?



I'll ask again - what would have to happen for you to believe sexism was not still present?

You imply here that sexism is not present and that racism has already ended. read your post.


Sorry for late reply, busy over the weekend.

Follow along Harry - I've never denied the existince of racists. My whole point was that if you're black or female racism/sexism won't prevent you achieveing what you want. Hence references to Obama and Mrs Thatcher.



Look above, you implied racism was gone and sexism was gone. The majority of the forum will hopefully agree with me that not only does your argument lack knowledge but you keep changing your mind. Please try and deny this because I know you will Justin. Face up to facts. You claimed they were both gone

[Twilly F. Sniper]

I agree. Homophobia is more common than racism and sexism combined.

I agree with that. They both still exist though.
Discrimination is BS.

[Prodigy17]

Look above, you implied racism was gone and sexism was gone. The majority of the forum will hopefully agree with me that not only does your argument lack knowledge but you keep changing your mind. Please try and deny this because I know you will Justin. Face up to facts. You claimed they were both gone

Gone completely no - if u look above somewhere (I think in a reply to Appolo) I stated the BNP very much exists. Presumably we can agree they are racists.

If you just want to "prove" that racism/sexism homophobism(is that the right word?) exist in the world then I'll give you that.

If as a black/female/gay you want to sit around saying how terrible it is and blame racism/sexism for your lack of success you are going to have a very sad life while you watch other gays/blacks/female succeed.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between something existing and something being prevelant enough to effect your life?

Bottom line:
I say racism only exists if it's impossible for a guy to succeed because he happens to be born black - can we agree by that measure racism does not exist?
Obviously same question for sexism.

Mugging does effect my life, I've been mugged 4 times, my mate's been mugged at knife point, I make a point not to carry my phone around due to the high crime rates where I live, I don't go near the council flats, if I see a gang I'll cross the road. I don't live in an ivory tower,

OK but that's because you have the misfortune to live in a crap area - obviously as a teen that's due to your parents.

Presumably as you form your own life one of your motivations would be to live in a nice area so that being mugged isn't a problem for you?

[Harry Smith]

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other.

In this post you say that your think that racism dosen't exist, do you not?

Please answer me- above it is heavily implied by you that racism/sexism dosen't exist.

Also if any other members are reading this I would love to hear whether you think that point above implies that racism is gone?

You keep changing your mind justin

[Prodigy17]

Also if any other members are reading this I would love to hear whether you think that point above implies that racism is gone?

You're playing to the crowd Harry - begging other people to back you up.

If you believe in mob rule then good luck to you as a gay person ;)

[Harry Smith]

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other. I wish you all the best :)

Do you or do you not admit that above you state that racism/ sexism or whatever other ism don't exist. You clearly state you think they are gone


You're playing to the crowd Harry - begging other people to back you up.

If you believe in mob rule then good luck to you as a gay person ;)

Begging? I've had about 5 bouts of rep from people telling me your a nutcase, I've had 3 other members support me on this thread alone. I was purely asking if I was mistaken. Also don't bring my sexuality into it, thats all I'm going to say.

But please adress my first point, you claim that racism/sexism is gone, do you withdraw this?

[Prodigy17]

But please adress my first point, you claim that racism/sexism is gone, do you withdraw this?

I answered that quite clearly earlier on
Bottom line:
I say racism only exists if it's impossible for a guy to succeed because he happens to be born black - can we agree by that measure racism does not exist?
Obviously same question for sexism.

Maybe reading threads before you reply might help your understanding?

[Harry Smith]

I answered that quite clearly earlier on


Maybe reading threads before you reply might help your understanding?

Are you fucking serious, you think racism doesn't exist haha, your blind mate really. Your so out of touch, look at South Africa. A flip side but half my family cannot work out there because on the quota system, hence they cannot succeed in there job out there.

[Prodigy17]

Harry,
I'm going to put this in very simple terms for you
I say racism only exists if it's impossible for a guy to succeed because he happens to be born black - can we agree by that measure racism does not exist?
Obviously same question for sexism.

I've posted the same thing 3 times and you still haven't read it so maybe you wil this time.

[Harry Smith]

Harry,
I'm going to put this in very simple terms for you
I say racism only exists if it's impossible for a guy to succeed because he happens to be born black - can we agree by that measure racism does not exist?
Obviously same question for sexism.

I've posted the same thing 3 times and you still haven't read it so maybe you wil this time.

Racism isn't a one way street, racism can be targeted towards white people as well. please read what I said about south Africa.

the definition of racism is- The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race.
Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-21744766, an example of a supply teacher not being able to succeed in teaching

[Desuetude]

Harry,
I'm going to put this in very simple terms for you
I say racism only exists if it's impossible for a guy to succeed because he happens to be born black - can we agree by that measure racism does not exist?
Obviously same question for sexism.

I've posted the same thing 3 times and you still haven't read it so maybe you wil this time.
Really didn't want to be getting in the middle of this because I don't think anyone here is going to change your views but what the hell eh.

You see racism as only being a problem if it prohibits someone from succeeding? Basically that's bullshit. Racism exists in the world and you would have to be very ignorant to disagree. People are still discriminated against for having different coloured skin whether you see it or not. I know I'm one practically meaningless person but I get bullied based on my skin colour, being Asian. It's racism, it's wrong and it's still happening in the world today.

Practically all of your arguments are based on there being a black president. He is just one person, just because he got the most votes because people liked his ideas, that doesn't mean people don't discriminate him and hate him for his skin colour. There will be people that dislike him even if they're not the majority. Even things like stereotyping can be racist, if you assume that (as mentioned somewhere else in this thread) just because someone's black they do drugs or an Asian is going to be really smart that's effectively racism. To say that there's nothing in the way of racism going on in the world is really ignorant but like I said, don't think anyone's going to be changing your views.

[Prodigy17]

the definition of racism is- The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race.

That is a very poor definition of racism. As an intelligent man you would realise that different characteristics of races is a scientific issue that could be proved/disproved as a fact rather than an opinion.

If/when science proves/disproves that races do have different characteristics will you believe that racism has ended?

[Apollo.]

Really didn't want to be getting in the middle of this because I don't think anyone here is going to change your views but what the hell eh.

You see racism as only being a problem if it prohibits someone from succeeding? Basically that's bullshit. Racism exists in the world and you would have to be very ignorant to disagree. People are still discriminated against for having different coloured skin whether you see it or not. I know I'm one practically meaningless person but I get bullied based on my skin colour, being Asian. It's racism, it's wrong and it's still happening in the world today.

Practically all of your arguments are based on there being a black president. He is just one person, just because he got the most votes because people liked his ideas, that doesn't mean people don't discriminate him and hate him for his skin colour. There will be people that dislike him even if they're not the majority. Even things like stereotyping can be racist, if you assume that (as mentioned somewhere else in this thread) just because someone's black they do drugs or an Asian is going to be really smart that's effectively racism. To say that there's nothing in the way of racism going on in the world is really ignorant but like I said, don't think anyone's going to be changing your views.

Yes! Finally another opinion on this thread. Justin your views on racism/sexuality are pretty much unique to you. The fact that these things dont affect everyone doesn't mean they are not a problem in the world! You need to realise these things are a problem and it will offend people that encounter them when you claim that they don't exist!

[Prodigy17]

Practically all of your arguments are based on there being a black president. He is just one person, just because he got the most votes because people liked his ideas, that doesn't mean people don't discriminate him and hate him for his skin colour.

I'm sure there are people in the USA who hate the fact they have a black president. I'm equally sure that being black helped Obama be elected - people voted for him because he was black not in spite of him being black.

Don't you think it worked both ways for him - some votes lost because he was black and some votes gained because he was black?

[Harry Smith]

I'm sure there are people in the USA who hate the fact they have a black president. I'm equally sure that being black helped Obama be elected - people voted for him because he was black not in spite of him being black.

Don't you think it worked both ways for him - some votes lost because he was black and some votes gained because he was black?

So you admit that people hated him purely because he's black yet you deny the existence of racism.

[Desuetude]

I'm sure there are people in the USA who hate the fact they have a black president. I'm equally sure that being black helped Obama be elected - people voted for him because he was black not in spite of him being black.

Don't you think it worked both ways for him - some votes lost because he was black and some votes gained because he was black?
Sure it might have gained him some popularity, we don't know, but that doesn't completely minimise the fact that some people hated him. The fact that some people hated him because he was black. Which is racist. Just because the majority may not have a problem with him being black that doesn't mean we can completely rule out the proportion of people that do.

[Prodigy17]

So you admit that people hated him purely because he's black yet you deny the existence of racism.

For fuck's sake Harry. My opinion of your intelligence is going down with every post you make

yes some people hated Obama for being black

the fact Obama is black did not prevent him from being president.

[Desuetude]

For fuck's sake Harry. My opinion of your intelligence is going down with every post you make

yes some people hated Obama for being black

the fact Obama is black did not prevent him from being president.
Why are practically all of your posts based on Obama? He's not the chairman for all black people. What about the other minority groups? One man being elected president doesn't decipher whether there is or is not racism in the world.

[Prodigy17]

Why are practically all of your posts based on Obama? He's not the chairman for all black people.

Well maybe he should be - as a black guy who proved you can get what you want.

Funny thing is in the UK most feminists hate Mrs Thatcher even though she was the first female prime minister. They hate her because she proved you could get what you want in spite of being a woman and made feminism look pretty silly.

[Harry Smith]

For fuck's sake Harry. My opinion of your intelligence is going down with every post you make

yes some people hated Obama for being black

the fact Obama is black did not prevent him from being president.

I never thought you were intelligent mate. I know that Obama is black, and yes he became President, but you cannot simply deny that racism isn't present just because one black person succeeded.

No-one on here agrees with you in regards to this issue, you can't deny racism isn't a problem. Cough- South Africa.

Also mate a lot of people dislike Thatcher because she made some dodgy choices but Thats another issue

[Desuetude]

Well maybe he should be - as a black guy who proved you can get what you want.

Funny thing is in the UK most feminists hate Mrs Thatcher even though she was the first female prime minister. They hate her because she proved you could get what you want in spite of being a woman and made feminism look pretty silly.
Okay so sure one person in one country got to the top. That doesn't mean that other people, possibly from other countries are having that same treatment. Lesser people are being discriminated against for their skin colour. This is racism. That's all I'm trying to get at.

To be fair I don't have a strong opinion on sexism so I'm not going to get into an argument with you on that.

[Prodigy17]

I never thought you were intelligent mate. I know that Obama is black, and yes he became President, but you cannot simply deny that racism isn't present just because one black person succeeded.

OK, so your argument is one swallow doesn't make a summer?

How many black presidents would we need for you to accept that being black doesn't limit your chances? 2, 5, 20, more?

[Harry Smith]

OK, so your argument is one swallow doesn't make a summer?

How many black presidents would we need for you to accept that being black doesn't limit your chances? 2, 5, 20, more?

I never said being black limited your chances, I said a black president doesn't prove that racism is gone. Big difference between a change in attitude and a complete end of racism

[Prodigy17]

I never said being black limited your chances,

Thank fuck for that. Damn shame it took 5 pages of crap for you to grasp my 1 simple point.

Please also tell all your "supporters" I was right all along :)

[Harry Smith]

Thank fuck for that. Damn shame it took 5 pages of crap for you to grasp my 1 simple point.

Please also tell all your "supporters" I was right all along :)

You were wrong all along, you denied the existence of racism earlier, you said that both sexism and racism didn't exist today. Do I need to quote you again?

You said that racism doesn't exist in our society

[Desuetude]

Thank fuck for that. Damn shame it took 5 pages of crap for you to grasp my 1 simple point.

Please also tell all your "supporters" I was right all along :)
It's not about limiting chances all of the time though, that's not what racism is. It's discrimination and prejudiced, these things don't always prevent you from succeeding. To me it seems like you're not getting the concept of racism.

[Prodigy17]

You were wrong all along, you denied the existence of racism earlier, you said that both sexism and racism didn't exist today. Do I need to quote you again?

You said that racism doesn't exist in our society

I said that racism wouldn't limit a (black) man's chances in life. That was my point.

I am glad you have finally accepted that.

To me it seems like you're not getting the concept of racism.

Obviously not by your definition.

What would have to happen for you to believe racism is no longer an issue?


Please use the multi quote function instead of double posting. -StoppingTime

[Harry Smith]

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other. I wish you all the best :)

Above you say that Racism doesn't exist, you openly say that in the post above. You deny the existence of racism

[Apollo.]

Obviously not by your definition.

What would have to happen for you to believe racism is no longer an issue?

Dear god! Is it really a win or lose thing for you? As long as there is racism in the world it's an issue. Just because of a black president doesn't mean it's not an issue. There is still violence in the world because of racism so its an issue. When there are no longer any racists in the world that's when I will believe it's not an issue!

My boyfriend is Chinese and still gets problems from some people so it is a massive issue for me.

[Desuetude]

Obviously not by your definition.

What would have to happen for you to believe racism is no longer an issue?
It's not my definition but as you wish.

Definition of racism
noun
[mass noun]

-the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.

No one anywhere in the world would be discriminated because of their race. Which (realistically) is never going to happen. There will always be the difference of skin colour which the less intelligent will use to put others down. It's pathetic but personally I very much doubt it'll ever completely end.

[Prodigy17]

No one anywhere in the world would be discriminated because of their race. Which (realistically) is never going to happen.

Agree it's never going to happen. What is the point of wishing for something you know isn't going to happen?

I would prefer to say that racism now today does not prevent a black guy being president of the USA. If you're a black guy that should be more important than hoping for some fantasy that won't happen.

Dear god! Is it really a win or lose thing for you?

It shouldn't be win/lose. My only point in this thread is to suggest that anyone black/female has opportunities to do what they do - their skin colour/sex is not going to stand in their way.

That should be a positive point.

Unfortunately one person (no names Harry) has made this win/lose by picking over my posts and quoting bits he thinks make me look wrong/stupid/racist etc. So it's become a win/lose thread. Obviously I'm not shy so I can do win/lose with the best of them but it makes the whole thread into a pissing contest which is probably a waste of everyone's time.

Serious question for you - as you seem somewhat more intelligent that your oppo - do you understand the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread?

Please use the multi quote function instead of double posting. -StoppingTime

[Harry Smith]

It shouldn't be win/lose. My only point in this thread is to suggest that anyone black/female has opportunities to do what they do - their skin colour/sex is not going to stand in their way.

That should be a positive point.

Unfortunately one person (no names Harry) has made this win/lose by picking over my posts and quoting bits he thinks make me look wrong/stupid/racist etc. So it's become a win/lose thread. Obviously I'm not shy so I can do win/lose with the best of them but it makes the whole thread into a pissing contest which is probably a waste of everyone's time.

Serious question for you - as you seem somewhat more intelligent that your oppo - do you understand the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread?

I picked up on the fact that you've changed your view multiple times in this post.

1) you've made some pretty strange views about ' gay thinking' earlier in the thread.
2)You've stated that racism doesn't exist earlier on, but now you've decided it does.
3) You've said that Sexism doesn't exist.
4) You seem too be obsessed over my intelligence for some reason as well, I have nothing to worry about my intelligence due to the support I've received.

[Prodigy17]

Tha above post was specific reply to another post so no need for you to pipe up.

Intelligence Harry - it will take you a long way :)

[Twilly F. Sniper]

OK, so your argument is one swallow doesn't make a summer?

How many black presidents would we need for you to accept that being black doesn't limit your chances? 2, 5, 20, more?

You apparently can't read. He said NOTHING of the kind.

[Apollo.]

Agree it's never going to happen. What is the point of wishing for something you know isn't going to happen?

I would prefer to say that racism now today does not prevent a black guy being president of the USA. If you're a black guy that should be more important than hoping for some fantasy that won't happen.



It shouldn't be win/lose. My only point in this thread is to suggest that anyone black/female has opportunities to do what they do - their skin colour/sex is not going to stand in their way.

That should be a positive point.

Unfortunately one person (no names Harry) has made this win/lose by picking over my posts and quoting bits he thinks make me look wrong/stupid/racist etc. So it's become a win/lose thread. Obviously I'm not shy so I can do win/lose with the best of them but it makes the whole thread into a pissing contest which is probably a waste of everyone's time.

Serious question for you - as you seem somewhat more intelligent that your oppo - do you understand the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread?

Please use the multi quote function instead of double posting. -StoppingTime

I understand the point your trying to convey but I disagree with it, race and sex is still a factor that can inhibit people. It's not as prevalent but if a minority applies for a job with a racist boss they aren't going to get it, even this day in age.

I also think you should back off insulting Harry' intelligence, Harry is one of the most intelligent people in this debate at the moment. It's a debate not a personal fight.

[Prodigy17]

I understand the point your trying to convey but I disagree with it, race and sex is still a factor that can inhibit people. It's not as prevalent but if a minority applies for a job with a racist boss they aren't going to get it, even this day in age.

No doubt there are still racist bosses in the world - but they have a pretty short life expectancy. Equally likely the guy hiring will be female or black or gay. The old steroetype of the white middle aged male boss is a thing of the past - just read the business pages to see who's employing these days.

End of the day do what Mrs Thatcher did - her boss (a white male) dismissed her views so she took his job. No whining about sexism - as the saying goes a little less conversation.

[Apollo.]

No doubt there are still racist bosses in the world - but they have a pretty short life expectancy. Equally likely the guy hiring will be female or black or gay. The old steroetype of the white middle aged male boss is a thing of the past - just read the business pages to see who's employing these days.

End of the day do what Mrs Thatcher did - her boss (a white male) dismissed her views so she took his job. No whining about sexism - as the saying goes a little less conversation.

Yes there are racist bosses, which means racism affects some people still, therefore your argument that racism doesn't stop anyone achieving is invalid, would you not agree?

[workingatperfect]

OK, so your argument is one swallow doesn't make a summer?

How many black presidents would we need for you to accept that being black doesn't limit your chances? 2, 5, 20, more?

Just because one black man managed to become president doesn't mean that racism is dead. It's means that a majority didn't care that he was black. I'd be willing to bet nearly half of the people that voted for McCain or Romney did so because they didn't want a black president. I know quite a few people who did that actually. Both my dad and step-dad did not vote for Obama because he was black. Not because he was a democrat or because they didn't like his views, but because he was black. It didn't kill his chances, but it made it even harder. However, he was also benefited by being black because a large part of country is more accepting and a lot of people probably didn't even pay attention to his campaign just said "I'm gonna be a good person and vote for a black man, yay me." But, just because a majority isn't racist, doesn't eliminate the minority.

In my town, there's a black mayor. But, it's a city where there's a large black population, and very large crime rate. People are incredibly racist here, I hear and see it every day. And it's not even all factual. People blame the city's problems on black people, but really, most of the crime is from white drug dealers and users. However, people see a city full of black people, and automatically blame them for the high crime rates. You better believe that that man had a hard time becoming mayor. Being black made it harder for him, and he still gets racist comments and gets called a bad mayor when in reality, he's a very kind man (I've met him) and the city has improved in many ways since he was elected. But people don't want to see that, all they see is a black man.

A lot of racism is even subconscious. You don't even notice you're doing it. I've noticed whenever we're driving, if my mom sees a black guy walking down the street, she locks the car doors. I've mentioned it and she said she does it when she sees anybody, black or white, but that's not true.

[Prodigy17]

Yes there are racist bosses, which means racism affects some people still, therefore your argument that racism doesn't stop anyone achieving is invalid, would you not agree?

OK, there are racist bosses in the world - there are also stupid bosses who's companies go bust. You probably wouldn't want to work for one of them would you?

And yes if you're going to let racist (or I guess homophobic in your case) bosses stop you achieving then you will be a loser all your life and if it makes you feel better you can still blame racist bosses and not everyone will laugh at you.

But if you don't want to be a loser you can still succeed despite your sex/skin colour. Agreed?

I'd be willing to bet nearly half of the people that voted for McCain or Romney did so because they didn't want a black president.

But I bet a lot of people who didn't vote for Romney voted Obama because they didn't want a rich white male president.

Let's be honest - do you really think anyone voted for Obama last time because they thought he did a really good job in his first term?


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Apollo.]

OK, there are racist bosses in the world - there are also stupid bosses who's companies go bust. You probably wouldn't want to work for one of them would you?

And yes if you're going to let racist (or I guess homophobic in your case) bosses stop you achieving then you will be a loser all your life and if it makes you feel better you can still blame racist bosses and not everyone will laugh at you.

But if you don't want to be a loser you can still succeed despite your sex/skin colour. Agreed?

No I don't agree, sometimes people cannot break away from persecution and can't overcome the problems that society presents them with, it doesn't make them a loser at all. You are continually staging down your argument until you have nearly no point left to make. You should stick to your points if yoyr going to stay in the debate.

[workingatperfect]

But I bet a lot of people who didn't vote for Romney voted Obama because they didn't want a rich white male president.

Let's be honest - do you really think anyone voted for Obama last time because they thought he did a really good job in his first term?

I don't even see how that's relevant. It wasn't just because he was a rich, white, male. It was because he was a stereotypical rich, white male. A bigoted asshole. If Obama had the same narrow-minded views, he wouldn't have become freedom. And way to ignore the rest of my argument by the way. Good debating there.


OK, there are racist bosses in the world - there are also stupid bosses who's companies go bust. You probably wouldn't want to work for one of them would you?

And yes if you're going to let racist (or I guess homophobic in your case) bosses stop you achieving then you will be a loser all your life and if it makes you feel better you can still blame racist bosses and not everyone will laugh at you.

But if you don't want to be a loser you can still succeed despite your sex/skin colour. Agreed?

What does being a loser have to do with anything. If I go apply for a job that I have all the credentials for and am perfectly qualified for, and instead of me getting it, a man who has equal or lesser credentials gets it, does that make me a loser? No? You can't blame a gay man for someone else's homophobia.
And don't even say that that would never happen, because it does. In fact, my mom's boss was up for a promotion a year or so ago and she didn't get it, a guy did. Now, she had been with the company for years and had the best team of merchandisers in the state. She had business and management degrees and whatnot, she would have been great for the job. The guy had only been there a few years and his team was so/so. If it was two men, or two women, my mom's boss would have gotten the job. On the other end of the spectrum, the Subway in my old town only hired women. I lived in that town for 12 years and not until a few months ago did I see a single man working there. Men definitely applied, but they never got the job.

[Prodigy17]

No I don't agree, sometimes people cannot break away from persecution and can't overcome the problems that society presents them with, it doesn't make them a loser at all.

So what does it make them? Even Harry said he doesn't see himself as a victim so I hope you won't say a victim.

I don't even see how that's relevant. It wasn't just because he was a rich, white, male. It was because he was a stereotypical rich, white male. A bigoted asshole. If Obama had the same narrow-minded views, he wouldn't have become freedom. And way to ignore the rest of my argument by the way. Good debating there..

My point was do you think anyone voted for Obama because they thought he did a good job first time? Simple yes/no answer is all I wanted.

I saw the rest of your argument. You live in a black town but it's the white drug dealers that cause all the trouble. Yea right because blacks never take drugs do they?

Why doesn't this black major arrest the white drug dealers and have a happy town?


-merged double post. -Emerald Dream

[Apollo.]

So what does it make them? Even Harry said he doesn't see himself as a victim so I hope you won't say a victim.

If someone is refused a chance in life due to something they cannot change they are very much a victim. That question is totally irrelevant to the debate anyway. Does racism affect people in this day in age? If it does its a problem and this debate is over. Please give me a straight answer.

[Prodigy17]

If someone is refused a chance in life due to something they cannot change they are very much a victim. That question is totally irrelevant to the debate anyway. Does racism affect people in this day in age? If it does its a problem and this debate is over. Please give me a straight answer.

It effects you if you let it. Not sure if that's yes or no by your terms?

[Apollo.]

It effects you if you let it. Not sure if that's yes or no by your terms?

It's another roundabout answer I asked for a straight answer, let me put it this way, a racist murder cannot be controlled, does it affect society yes or no

[Prodigy17]

a racist murder cannot be controlled, does it affect society yes or no

Somebody murdering another just because he's black you mean?

It's so rare that I don't think it would effect society. So my answer would be no

[Apollo.]

Somebody murdering another just because he's black you mean?

It's so rare that I don't think it would effect society. So my answer would be no

That view is disgusting, of course it does! What about their families they are part of society? Your clutching at straws now. Also a racist murder wouldn't have to be a black person being killed it could be a white person or some other minority. As far as I'm concerned your insulting your own intelligence trying to continue this debate.

[Prodigy17]

That view is disgusting, of course it does! What about their families they are part of society?

You asked if it effected society. 1 murder doesn't effect society if it did society would have ended by now.

As far as I'm concerned your insulting your own intelligence trying to continue this debate.

So fuck off out of the debate then, I'm not overly concerned what you think. Do us all a favour and don't respond to this post - then the debate will end.

[Apollo.]

You asked if it effected society. 1 murder doesn't effect society if it did society would have ended by now.



So fuck off out of the debate then, I'm not overly concerned what you think. Do us all a favour and don't respond to this post - then the debate will end.

*affects, dear god at least learn to speak.

You views are flawed, the fact you are telling me to "fuck off" just makes you look even more ridiculous. Do yourself a favour admit you were wrong and you may gain some credibility. I love how you have insulted Harry's intelligence and then act like a spoilt child, I pity you.

A murder affects society, it involves the police costing society money, it makes people in the area on edge therefore it affects society.

Please try and stay on topic, I don't appreciate being told to fuck off, learn some manners.

[LoNgPyJaMaS]

I dont think we should try and find out wich problem is bigger but just solve both.

[xmojox]

My point was do you think anyone voted for Obama because they thought he did a good job first time? Simple yes/no answer is all I wanted.

I saw the rest of your argument. You live in a black town but it's the white drug dealers that cause all the trouble. Yea right because blacks never take drugs do they?

Why doesn't this black major arrest the white drug dealers and have a happy town?

This statement is rude and very bad form. And I must say, "Yea right because blacks never take drugs do they?" sounds awfully close to being racist.

[workingatperfect]

My point was do you think anyone voted for Obama because they thought he did a good job first time? Simple yes/no answer is all I wanted.

I saw the rest of your argument. You live in a black town but it's the white drug dealers that cause all the trouble. Yea right because blacks never take drugs do they?

Why doesn't this black major arrest the white drug dealers and have a happy town?

Some did but not all. Some voted because they liked his views and thought with another 4 years he good do a better job.

I know you saw it, I pointed out that you chose to ignore it. People typically do that when they know the other person is right and can't possibly refute what they said. And again, you have no thoughts on sexism anymore. Sounds to me like, as Harry pointed out earlier, you've realized you were wrong and these two issues are very well alive.

Did I say they never take drugs? No, don't put words in my mouth. I said that MOST of the crime comes from white people, but everyone attributes the crime rates to this being a primarily black city.

Because it's not that easy to arrest someone, you have to have a reason. And because you can't just eliminate every single drug dealer, especially not in a city of some 50,000 people where almost every neighborhood is considered bad.

And your comment about murder not affecting society, my god, are you THAT ignorant? People are getting afraid to send their children to school. Why? School shootings are increasing. People in my area are afraid to even let their kids out of the house or let them play in the park down the road because of all the recent shootings in this neighborhood. Those are just two examples, but if you can't even see how society is affected by murder, you really have no place debating about the prevalence of racism and sexism in our society.

[xmojox]

From the US Department of Labor:

Median Weekly Earnings, by sex and race, 2007

White women: $626 Black women: $533
White men: $788 . Black men: $600

Hispanic women: $473. Asian women: $731
Hispanic men: $520 Asian men: $936

Median yearly earnings for full-time year-round workers was $32,515 for women; $42,261 for men and in 2006.

So much for sexism being a thing of the past.

[Prodigy17]

I know you saw it, I pointed out that you chose to ignore it. People typically do that when they know the other person is right and can't possibly refute what they said. And again, you have no thoughts on sexism anymore.

Haha, nice try. I didn't respond because it was a rant about your town - not knowing anything about your town there wasn't much I could say. For all I know you could have made it up to suit your point. If you mention something in a debate best to mention something that others might know about or can check if they're interested.

One little fact for you though - blacks comprise 13% of the US population but 39% of the prison population. So blacks must be committing a hell of a lot of crime outside your town?

Did I say they never take drugs? No, don't put words in my mouth. I said that MOST of the crime comes from white people, but everyone attributes the crime rates to this being a primarily black city.

So everyone is wrong except you? How do you know who commits the crime?

And your comment about murder not affecting society, my god, are you THAT ignorant?

The question was would a (ie one) racist murder affect society - answer no because it wouldn't even make the news where I live so certainly couldn't have an effect on society. 99% of society wouldn't even hear about it.

Would lots of racist murders affect society? Of course.

It was a silly question but I answered what was asked.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

OK, there are racist bosses in the world - there are also stupid bosses who's companies go bust. You probably wouldn't want to work for one of them would you?

And yes if you're going to let racist (or I guess homophobic in your case) bosses stop you achieving then you will be a loser all your life and if it makes you feel better you can still blame racist bosses and not everyone will laugh at you.

But if you don't want to be a loser you can still succeed despite your sex/skin colour. Agreed?


There's such a thing as firing people? I think so. Statement has no validity. The end's good just not your argument.

[Apollo.]

Haha, nice try. I didn't respond because it was a rant about your town - not knowing anything about your town there wasn't much I could say. For all I know you could have made it up to suit your point. If you mention something in a debate best to mention something that others might know about or can check if they're interested.

One little fact for you though - blacks comprise 13% of the US population but 39% of the prison population. So blacks must be committing a hell of a lot of crime outside your town?



So everyone is wrong except you? How do you know who commits the crime?



The question was would a (ie one) racist murder affect society - answer no because it wouldn't even make the news where I live so certainly couldn't have an effect on society. 99% of society wouldn't even hear about it.

Would lots of racist murders affect society? Of course.

It was a silly question but I answered what was asked.

I hardly see it as a silly question. 1% of society is a hell of a lot of people affected. Also "where I live" I thought you had just made a point about using things others will know about in a debate.

[Harry Smith]

My point was do you think anyone voted for Obama because they thought he did a good job first time? Simple yes/no answer is all I wanted.

. Yea right because blacks never take drugs do they?




-merged double post. -Emerald Dream


That comment is racist mate. You need to be careful what you said. Your stereotyping, all I will say it that Obama won due to the fact that Romney kept flip flopping on his view. Also you can't say that people only voted for Obama because he was black and then make racist comments- Thats an oxymoron.

You do seem to be avoiding a lot of statements that both I and others have made. So if your unsure I'll give a summary.
1) You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've restored to Ad hominem
5) You've made some racist comments

To summarize mate you've came across as rude, sexist, racist and homophobic. Not exactly good qualities

[Allbutanillusion]

Well I'm a white straight male - if I don't get what I want out of life it's for one simple reason. Because I'm not good enough so I try harder.

If a woman or a black or a gay person doesn't get what they want out of life it's because of racism/sexism/homophobia etc. We've had woman or black leaders in the UK, USA and Germany which proves that racism/sexism isn't a problem.

Maybe the fact that only 5% of senior positions in US companies (din't check but assuming it's true) are held by women is just because the women aren't good enough?


I agree. I think in this day and age of increasing narcissism people are developing/have an attitude of entitlement to the extent that has never been seen before. Today , there are civil rights groups that exist as enablers, for people to complain and whine about the most trivial things.

Also, I noticed that people here are throwing out number and statistics but neglecting to look at underlying factors. If I may refer to the OP's original statements about more black people being incarcerated....Well.., THAT IS BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIMES! And me saying that isn't racist..., it is fact.

As far has women not holding a lot of senior positions at companies, that may not be due exclusively to sexism. Could it just possibly be...,that they didn't want those positions?? Yes it could.



Let us not forget.., RACISM IS NOT PERPETRATED ONLY BY WHITE PEOPLE JUST AS MEN ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE SEXIST

[Harry Smith]

I agree. I think in this day and age of increasing narcissism people are developing/have an attitude of entitlement to the extent that has never been seen before. Today , there are civil rights groups that exist as enablers, for people to complain and whine about the most trivial things.

Also, I noticed that people here are throwing out number and statistics but neglecting to look at underlying factors. If I may refer to the OP's original statements about more black people being incarcerated....Well.., THAT IS BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIMES! And me saying that isn't racist..., it is fact.

As far has women not holding a lot of senior positions at companies, that may not be due exclusively to sexism. Could it just possibly be...,that they didn't want those positions?? Yes it could.



Let us not forget.., RACISM IS NOT PERPETRATED ONLY BY WHITE PEOPLE JUST AS MEN ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE SEXIST

I've never said that racism is only perpetrated by white people, no one on this thread has. Look at my example of South Africa.

The civil rights group were set up on a extremely honest principle, I admit there are cases of people using the race card but they are ever so rare. You can't use this to dismiss racism.

Also the reason why people are using facts is so that they can support there argument, it's the basics of debating. Also you can't just state black people commit more crimes... you have to back it up with proof and even if you do what does that prove. Have you heard of the phrase tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. It means the way to reduce crime rates is to improve education and infrastructure for youths to break the cycle.

Also you may want to reword your last statement, you seem to be shrugging off sexism with a gross general-ism of ' them not wanting it'. Many women want high up corporate jobs, and remember this is just one part of sexism.

In regards to Racism you should be careful in your wording so as not to come across as bigoted or quite simply racist

[Prodigy17]

Also you can't just state black people commit more crimes...

Do you think black people commit more crimes?

[Harry Smith]

Do you think black people commit more crimes?


In UK Prisons 72% of the inmates are white, arrests during 2009/2010 were at 79.6% for white's, compared to 8% for blacks and 5% for Asians. So no in britain black people do not commit more crimes.

But that's not an issue, it's about the bigger problem of racism, you can't just use crime either way to justify racism.

Also as has been said before, way to skim over my argument mate. You just miss out what you want.

[xmojox]

Also, I noticed that people here are throwing out number and statistics but neglecting to look at underlying factors. If I may refer to the OP's original statements about more black people being incarcerated....Well.., THAT IS BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIMES! And me saying that isn't racist..., it is fact

That doesn't prove that by any means. Maybe the fact that more black folks are incarcerated just means that they can't afford legal representation of the quality that white's can, and are stuck with Public Defenders. Your view is overly simplistic.

Regarding your last statement about women, do you sincerely think that any person doesn't want to advance to the top in his or her chosen field?

[Prodigy17]

In UK Prisons 72% of the inmates are white, arrests during 2009/2010 were at 79.6% for white's, compared to 8% for blacks and 5% for Asians. So no in britain black people do not commit more crimes.

I'm surprised at you for being so ignorant Harry. In the UK
around 74% of the prison population is white - 88% of the population is white.
13% of the prison population is black vs 3% of the UK population.
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04334.pdf

Do you now see that blacks commit many more crimes than whites?

[Desuetude]

Somebody murdering another just because he's black you mean?

It's so rare that I don't think it would effect society. So my answer would be no

Not that you ever read the articles linked to you but here's (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19352974) something you might find interesting. From the article itself:

The judge said the murder was committed "for no other reason than racial hatred."

This was a murder that was solely based on the boys skin colour, committed by 2 white men. The victim was described as being "a totally innocent 18-year-old youth on the threshold of a promising life" he was unable to succeed (as you keep repeating) because of racism. When is it going to occur to you that racism is still a problem.


and then there's a whole article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16438933) about how there have been 96 racist killings since Stephen Lawrence's (the article above) and this is just in the UK. Who's to say there aren't a whole load of killings based on race in the rest of the world which I know there are but really I see no need to back that up now since there's enough evidence here for you to withdraw your comment about these racist murders not affecting society. Killing for no reason other than the colour or someone's skin is obviously going to affect people, it's wrong and there will be some that are going to be worried for their own lives.

[Harry Smith]

I'm surprised at you for being so ignorant Harry. In the UK
around 74% of the prison population is white - 88% of the population is white.
13% of the prison population is black vs 3% of the UK population.
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04334.pdf

Do you now see that blacks commit many more crimes than whites?

My source was from the Ministry Of justice and also from a Home affairs select committee.

But if my source is incorrect your source still shows that there are a higher percentage of whites in jail than blacks, my figures also show that 79.6% is the percentage of white people arrested. So no I don't see that more blacks commit crime, even if I did what does that have to do with racism.

Also way to skim over the fucking argument again. Your really awful.

Just to summarize for everyone

1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments

Nearly everyone has riddled your argument to bits, you've had about 4 different people on this thread alone completely dismiss your case. You just pick up one small detail and then proceed on that. You ignore your own failing's, your own double standards and your own bigoted ultra right wing views.

[Prodigy17]

But if my source is incorrect your source still shows that there are a higher percentage of whites in jail than blacks

I wasn't saying your source was incorrect, give or take a bit it's pretty much in line with mine. Point being Harry blacks make up 3% of the UK population but 13% of the prison population.

What does that figure tell you?

[Desuetude]

I wasn't saying your source was incorrect, give or take a bit it's pretty much in line with mine. Point being Harry blacks make up 3% of the UK population but 13% of the prison population.

What does that figure tell you?
Thanks for completely blanking my post. I'd like to know if there are innocent people being killed solely because of their skin colour then racism isn't a a problem?

[Prodigy17]

You need to be careful what you said. Your stereotyping,

But stereotyping is acceptable Harry - see below

I don't even see how that's relevant. It wasn't just because he was a rich, white, male. It was because he was a stereotypical rich, white male. A bigoted asshole.

If you're going to criticise me for sterotyping then do the same to the person that wrote this. I take it you don't like double standards :)

[Azunite]

Simple:

You are either male or female.

But you can be Asian, Middle Eastern, African, European, American etc. etc. etc.

We should remove racism first.

[Apollo.]

But stereotyping is acceptable Harry - see below



If you're going to criticise me for sterotyping then do the same to the person that wrote this. I take it you don't like double standards :)

Is your personal challenge of "winning" against Harry that important to you that you will make yourself look bigoted and a generally disgusting human being?

Your debating skills are piss poor, you address the points you want to and skim over the rest, you change your argument constantly and then create a strawman argument to distract people. Sort it out and stick to your opinion or you will continue to make yourself look ridiculous.

[Prodigy17]

Is your personal challenge of "winning" against Harry that important

Nothing so profound I just thought it was funny, it's been a long day.

As you've decided to pipe up again here's a question for you - is stereotyping on racial grounds acceptable or not?

[Apollo.]

Nothing so profound I just thought it was funny, it's been a long day.

As you've decided to pipe up again here's a question for you - is stereotyping on racial grounds acceptable or not?


Thats a different debate, create a thread if you want that answered. In the meantime respond to the questions and statements from everyone that you have ignored so far. Please stop with the strawman arguments and finish this debate!

[Prodigy17]

Thats a different debate, create a thread if you want that answered.

I want it answered by you and Harry, not the whole forum. Is stereotyping on race grounds acceptable - simple yes or no?

In the meantime respond to the questions and statements from everyone that you have ignored so far.

If i did that I'd be here all night - you'll concede there has been quite a lot of random bullshit flying about. I've tried to respond to anything semi-sensible but sincere apologies to anyone I've ignored.

[Apollo.]

I want it answered by you and Harry, not the whole forum. Is stereotyping on race grounds acceptable - simple yes or no?



If i did that I'd be here all night - you'll concede there has been quite a lot of random bullshit flying about. I've tried to respond to anything semi-sensible but sincere apologies to anyone I've ignored.
In my eyes no, race means nothing to me! I know where you are going with that question aid like you to point out where I have stereotyped anyone due to race.

Well if you won't answer everyones questions just because they dont suit you then your not going to be seen as credible in any debate.

[xmojox]

I wasn't saying your source was incorrect, give or take a bit it's pretty much in line with mine. Point being Harry blacks make up 3% of the UK population but 13% of the prison population.

What does that figure tell you?

Actually, there's an alternate way that statistic could be interpreted. It's possible that black people simply have a disproportionately high rate of conviction...but you'll deny that possibility because it would indicate racism.

[Prodigy17]

Actually, there's an alternate way that statistic could be interpreted. It's possible that black people simply have a disproportionately high rate of conviction...but you'll deny that possibility because it would indicate racism.

OK. so you realy think whites and blacks commit the same number of crimes it's just that whites don't get caught?

I don't think it's racist to say blacks commit more crimes than whites, it's pretty obvious. Every figure, every stat the world over shows this to be true.

[Prodigy17]

In my eyes no, race means nothing to me! I know where you are going with that question aid like you to point out where I have stereotyped anyone due to race.

You haven't to be fair. But you and Harry have attacked me for stereotyping due to race. Harry has even given me a lot of negative rep for what he considers "racism"

Do you think this language is acceptable?
It wasn't just because he was a rich, white, male. It was because he was a stereotypical rich, white male. A bigoted asshole.

If yes then surely I'm also allowed to stereotype on race grounds
If no then please state publicly that person was wrong for stereotyping

[Harry Smith]

OK. so you realy think whites and blacks commit the same number of crimes it's just that whites don't get caught?

I don't think it's racist to say blacks commit more crimes than whites, it's pretty obvious. Every figure, every stat the world over shows this to be true.

You seem to be obsessed with getting an answer out of me when people have made very long and valid statements which you ignore. Please answer them rather than asking me unrelated questions.

Also I have no idea what point you are making- first you deny racism now you say that black people commit more crimes?

You also ignored by thing about the causes of crime, someone's race shouldn't matter in a crime. You have absolutely no compassion mate. Also I think I should remind you that so far you have...
1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points.

I will be nice and blunt here mate- You will not get far on a teen forum if you ignore people and act like an obsessed Pillock

[xmojox]

OK. so you realy think whites and blacks commit the same number of crimes it's just that whites don't get caught?

I don't think it's racist to say blacks commit more crimes than whites, it's pretty obvious. Every figure, every stat the world over shows this to be true.

No, no, no. I'm saying that maybe...just maybe it's possible that black people have a disproportionately higher rate of conviction because of economic disadvantage and prejudice. I didn't say that white people don't get caught. Only that they aren't convicted as often.

[Prodigy17]

No, no, no. I'm saying that maybe...just maybe it's possible that black people have a disproportionately higher rate of conviction because of economic disadvantage and prejudice.


3% of the population but 13% of the prison population is quite a big gap. Do you think the explanation is simple - blacks commit more crime?

I didn't say that white people don't get caught. Only that they aren't convicted as often.

OK. So white people go to court but they're found not guilty?

[Allbutanillusion]

So..,APOLLO.., would you mind explaining to me what I stated that was so offensive that you felt like giving me negative rep?

I am not a racist nor a sexist, by no means, I have many black /Asian/Hispanic friends, most of whom would agree with what I have stated.

Oh, by the way I was never denying that racism/sexism wasn't a problem.

[Harry Smith]

As far has women not holding a lot of senior positions at companies, that may not be due exclusively to sexism. Could it just possibly be...,that they didn't want those positions?? Yes it could.


Personally I thought that line was a bit of general sweeping statment, trying to dismiss corporate sexism as simply being the women's fault


So..,APOLLO.., would you mind explaining to me what I stated that was so offensive that you felt like giving me negative rep?

I am not a racist nor a sexist, by no means, I have many black /Asian/Hispanic friends, most of whom would agree with what I have stated.

Oh, by the way I was never denying that racism/sexism wasn't a problem.

If you want to talk about Rep, PM Apollo. Don't make this into an even larger flame war.

And it's good that you accept that it is a problem because I think everyone apart from Prodigy17 can accept that it is a big problem in our society

[Prodigy17]

now you say that black people commit more crimes?

I am saying quite clearly that black people commit more crimes. Do you agree with that simple fact?

Yes or no to that question then I'll move on to your other points.

[Harry Smith]

No, In Britain white people commit more crimes. And why does this matter, your can't just ask me random questions to avoid your lack of skill. You've got no plan, no support and no hope Justin.


Just in case you missed this.
1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points

[xmojox]

3% of the population but 13% of the prison population is quite a big gap. Do you think the explanation is simple - blacks commit more crime?

Let's say for the sake of argument that black people commit more crime than white people. What do you suppose is the reason for it?



OK. So white people go to court but they're found not guilty?

In a word, yes. Or at least far more frequently than black people.

[Prodigy17]

In a word, yes. Or at least far more frequently than black people.

OK, 2 questions
1/ why do you think that is?
2/ are you knowledgable about the UK criminal justice system? Only reason I ask is because the figures I quoted are from the UK and you appear to be from the USA. I suspect you may not know how things work in the UK.

[Harry Smith]

OK, 2 questions
1/ why do you think that is?
2/ are you knowledgable about the UK criminal justice system? Only reason I ask is because the figures I quoted are from the UK and you appear to be from the USA. I suspect you may not know how things work in the UK.

Whats with all the questions? Your can't accept your own terrible argument


Just in case you missed this.

No, In Britain white people commit more crimes. And why does this matter, your can't just ask me random questions to avoid your lack of skill. You've got no plan, no support and no hope Justin.



1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points

[Prodigy17]

No, In Britain white people commit more crimes.

Put your best thinking cap on for a moment - do you think that might be because 88% of the UK population is in fact white?

Whites do more of everything in the UK because there are more of them.

But blacks make up 3% of the population yet 13% of the prison population. Does that figure seem a bit out of line to you?

[Harry Smith]

I am saying quite clearly that black people commit more crimes. Do you agree with that simple fact?

.

You state black people commit more crimes, yet below you say they don't because theres a higher white percentage. YOUR WRONG ABOVE- YOU KEEP FLIP FLOPPING. ACCEPT THAT YOU WERE WRONG.


Put your best thinking cap on for a moment - do you think that might be because 88% of the UK population is in fact white?

Whites do more of everything in the UK because there are more of them.

But blacks make up 3% of the population yet 13% of the prison population. Does that figure seem a bit out of line to you?

Stop fucking obessing over prison stats. It's just a stat, what are you trying to prove? You just spit out numbers! Stop picking one sentence and asking a question. This has no relevance at all to the fact that you've....
1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points.

[Prodigy17]

Stop fucking obessing over prison stats. It's just a stat, what are you trying to prove?

Simple Harry - that blacks commit vastly more crimes than whites.

Two ways this can go
1/ admit blacks commit more crimes than whites and I will enter a point by point debate with you. I'll even let you have first "serve"
2/ continue to ignore a very simple clear stat I posted.

Your move mate

[xmojox]

3% of the population but 13% of the prison population is quite a big gap. Do you think the explanation is simple - blacks commit more crime?



OK. So white people go to court but they're found not guilty?

OK, 2 questions
1/ why do you think that is?
2/ are you knowledgable about the UK criminal justice system? Only reason I ask is because the figures I quoted are from the UK and you appear to be from the USA. I suspect you may not know how things work in the UK.

I asked you first :)

The fact that one set of statistics can be interpreted in more than one way holds true regardless of the country of origin of the statistics.

[Prodigy17]

I asked you first :)

The fact that one set of statistics can be interpreted in more than one way holds true regardless of the country of origin of the statistics.

Fair point - you win that one ;)

I don't think those stats can be interpreted in more than one way.
1/ blacks commit more crime
2/ blacks are more pre-disposed to crime

I don't think it's racist to make that observation based on cold hard facts. Do you?

[xmojox]

WholeFair point - you win that one ;)

I don't think those stats can be interpreted in more than one way.
1/ blacks commit more crime
2/ blacks are more pre-disposed to crime

I don't think it's racist to make that observation based on cold hard facts. Do you?

I don't, nor can any rational thinking person in the 21st century, believe that one race is more predisposed toward illegal behavior than any other race. I strongly beg to differ with you, sir, that is a racist statement.

Now, as to your question: When a disproportionately large part of prison population consists of minorities, there is either an inequity somewhere within the justice system that placed them there, or there is a failing somewhere within the society as a whole.

And, despite your steadfast refusal to accept it, there is more than one way to interpret most statistics. If you'd like, I can offer you an unrelated example of multiple interpretations of statistics to which you may be less emotionally committed.

[workingatperfect]

But stereotyping is acceptable Harry - see below



If you're going to criticise me for sterotyping then do the same to the person that wrote this. I take it you don't like double standards :)

I wasn't stereotyping, I was stating that he fits the general stereotype that society has about rich white men. Stereotyping would be if I said he was automatically an asshole because he's rich.

Also, I did the math on your prison stats. It's too much work to type out, so I'm not going to, but basically, about .3% of the black population in the UK is in prison, whereas about .2% of the white population in is prison. So yeah, the percentage is higher, but that doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. Did you ever think that it's higher because it is indeed a very real problem? It doesn't prove anything. All it proves is that you think crime is a justification for being racist.

[Prodigy17]

If you'd like, I can offer you an unrelated example of multiple interpretations of statistics to which you may be less emotionally committed.

I'm not emotionally committed to any stats - they just supply the evidence from which I draw conclusions.

Happy to look at your unrelated stats so do go ahead and post them.

[Prodigy17]

I wasn't stereotyping, I was stating that he fits the general stereotype that society has about rich white men.

OK so if I said Obama sits around all day watching TV, eating fried chicken and smoking weed would that be acceptable as it's the stereotype of a black man?

Also, I did the math on your prison stats. It's too much work to type out, so I'm not going to, but basically, about .3% of the black population in the UK is in prison, whereas about .2% of the white population in is prison. So yeah, the percentage is higher, but that doesn't mean racism doesn't exist.

Good job on the math part - you're correct. Nothing to do with racism it just means blacks commit a lot more crime per head than whites. Obviously the same applies in the USA - albeit with different figures - so it's not UK specific.

That fact might make society more hostile toward blacks, which in turn makes blacks commit more crime. Vicious circle - agreed?

[workingatperfect]

OK so if I said Obama sits around all day watching TV, eating fried chicken and smoking weed would that be acceptable as it's the stereotype of a black man?


If it's true, then yes, it's ok to say it. But to assume that he does because he's black is not ok. Like, ok, I smoke weed. So people used to assume I was stupid and lazy and a bad person, because I was a stoner. They were stereotyping me. But honestly, I was lazy, I ate a lot, and wasn't the best person in the world. Aside from being stupid, I fit the stoner stereotype. It's a fact, not an assumption, that's what makes the difference.


Good job on the math part - you're correct. Nothing to do with racism it just means blacks commit a lot more crime per head than whites. Obviously the same applies in the USA - albeit with different figures - so it's not UK specific.

That fact might make society more hostile toward blacks, which in turn makes blacks commit more crime. Vicious circle - agreed?

It doesn't mean that black commit more crimes though. It means they're convicted more. But you must keep in mind that cops can sometimes be racist in who they arrest or pull over, juries can be racist when coming to decisions, and judges can be races when sentencing.

[Apollo.]

You haven't to be fair. But you and Harry have attacked me for stereotyping due to race. Harry has even given me a lot of negative rep for what he considers "racism"

Do you think this language is acceptable?


If yes then surely I'm also allowed to stereotype on race grounds
If no then please state publicly that person was wrong for stereotyping

I believe it is racism when it is a potentially offensive stereotype. Also its rep nothing important if you have a problem with it then take it up with the person that has given you it and keep the thread on topic.

The stereotype above is not something that bothers me as its a stereotype not based solely on race but on other factors as well. Besides that is off topic please stop creating strawman arguments.

[maxx14]

Round where i live racism is still intact and not gone, sexism isn't shown as much.

[xmojox]

If it's true, then yes, it's ok to say it. But to assume that he does because he's black is not ok. Like, ok, I smoke weed. So people used to assume I was stupid and lazy and a bad person, because I was a stoner. They were stereotyping me. But honestly, I was lazy, I ate a lot, and wasn't the best person in the world. Aside from being stupid, I fit the stoner stereotype. It's a fact, not an assumption, that's what makes the difference.



It doesn't mean that black commit more crimes though. It means they're convicted more. But you must keep in mind that cops can sometimes be racist in who they arrest or pull over, juries can be racist when coming to decisions, and judges can be races when sentencing.


Exactly!!


Prodigy...there was a cereal commercial on tv that stated: " People who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't." This is a statistical statement, albeit a non-numerical one. One way to interpret it would be the way they intended "eating whole grain will make me lose weight." It would be equally valid to arrive at the conclusion that people who eat whole grain are more health conscious and exercise more and so weigh less. One statistic, 2 possible interpretations, both equally valid.

[Harry Smith]

Simple Harry - that blacks commit vastly more crimes than whites.

Two ways this can go
1/ admit blacks commit more crimes than whites and I will enter a point by point debate with you. I'll even let you have first "serve"
2/ continue to ignore a very simple clear stat I posted.

Your move mate

Just because blacks make up a higher prison percentage doesn't mean they commit more crimes. 79.6% of arrests are for white people

White people commit more crimes than black people. End of. A white person commits more crimes, yes there are more white people but the white person still commits more crimes..


You continue to ignore

1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points.

[Harry Smith]

Everyone one this thread- as much as I find prodigy17 and his views annoying and largely out of date I feel that we're not going to change his narrow minded views.

First he said Racism didn't exist, now he is just blanking people and asking random questions. He has virtually no debating skills and he seems to fixate over one question when both I and many other members have posted long counter- arguments.

The bottom line is racism still exists Justin, your either a racist yourself or your just in complete denial. You won't get far in life with this views.

[Prodigy17]

If it's true, then yes, it's ok to say it. But to assume that he does because he's black is not ok. Like, ok, I smoke weed. So people used to assume I was stupid and lazy and a bad person, because I was a stoner. They were stereotyping me.

OK that makes sense Nikki - you're saying you didn't mind being stereotyped because it was true? I think many people would still say wrong to sterotype others even if it is true. To many people just the idea of drawing a stereo type is wrong, even though 99 druggies might be fat/stupid/lazy the 100th might be none of those things.


It doesn't mean that black commit more crimes though.

I thought you'd say that :) If it was something like blacks = 3% of the population but 5% of people in prison then maybe you could explain it away by racist judges/juries/cops etc. But when the discrepancy is so large - 3% vs 13% - and the same pattern is repeated in other countires there is no way it can be explained away by anything other than the obvious - blacks commit more crime.

Question for you - is there any number that would convince you blacks commit more crimes? Say blacks are 3% of the UK but 70% of those in prison would you then say blacks commit more crime or would you still explain it away by other factors?

Liberal thinking is all very nice but at some stage you do have to just use common sense and draw the obvious conclusion :)

[Twilly F. Sniper]

You haven't to be fair. But you and Harry have attacked me for stereotyping due to race. Harry has even given me a lot of negative rep for what he considers "racism"

Do you think this language is acceptable?


If yes then surely I'm also allowed to stereotype on race grounds
If no then please state publicly that person was wrong for stereotyping

Wow really? You seemed to go from a good debater to a kindergartner. Ridiculous. She was not stereotyping. She was just clarifying Romney has a lot of stereotypes. Nobody was, except for you.

[Prodigy17]

Exactly!!


Prodigy...there was a cereal commercial on tv that stated: " People who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't." This is a statistical statement, albeit a non-numerical one. One way to interpret it would be the way they intended "eating whole grain will make me lose weight." It would be equally valid to arrive at the conclusion that people who eat whole grain are more health conscious and exercise more and so weigh less. One statistic, 2 possible interpretations, both equally valid.

OK, I'l give you that one. Problem is it's not a stat anyone could draw any conclusion from because it's so vague as to be useless.

To be able to analyse anything you have to use your brain. Take a random stat - 90% of Ferrari buyers are over 40. Two interpretations
1/ Ferraris appeal mainly to older guys
2/ Ferraris appeal to all guys of all ages but to be able to afford one you need to have worked for a long time.

By your reckoning both would be valid conclusions but if you have any common sense you can probably tell which is correct?

This is the thing any stat is totally useless unless you have the common sense to interpret it. It's actually quite amusing to see the lengths liberals will go to to try and "explain away" crime figures - a bit of common sense would work wonders for the world :)

[Harry Smith]

OK, I'l give you that one. Problem is it's not a stat anyone could draw any conclusion from because it's so vague as to be useless.

To be able to analyse anything you have to use your brain. Take a random stat - 90% of Ferrari buyers are over 40. Two interpretations
1/ Ferraris appeal mainly to older guys
2/ Ferraris appeal to all guys of all ages but to be able to afford one you need to have worked for a long time.

By your reckoning both would be valid conclusions but if you have any common sense you can probably tell which is correct?

This is the thing any stat is totally useless unless you have the common sense to interpret it. It's actually quite amusing to see the lengths liberals will go to to try and "explain away" crime figures - a bit of common sense would work wonders for the world :)

what the fuck does a Ferrari have to do with racism? One again Justin your ignoring the points of the argument which clearly highlight the flaws in your debate

[xmojox]

OK, I'l give you that one. Problem is it's not a stat anyone could draw any conclusion from because it's so vague as to be useless.

To be able to analyse anything you have to use your brain. Take a random stat - 90% of Ferrari buyers are over 40. Two interpretations
1/ Ferraris appeal mainly to older guys
2/ Ferraris appeal to all guys of all ages but to be able to afford one you need to have worked for a long time.

By your reckoning both would be valid conclusions but if you have any common sense you can probably tell which is correct?

This is the thing any stat is totally useless unless you have the common sense to interpret it. It's actually quite amusing to see the lengths liberals will go to to try and "explain away" crime figures - a bit of common sense would work wonders for the world :)

It was just an example. The only conclusion from it that matters (as I said, it was completely unrelated to what we are discussing and only provided for example) is that there can be more than one way to interpret a statistic.

This is from The Statistical Analysis Handbook:


Correlation versus causation - it is extremely easy to assume that because there is a close (perhaps highly significant) relationship between two variables, that one causes the other. This may occur in many ways and can be quite subtle (obvious examples are much easier to spot). Take the following example: "Girls at single sex schools do better than girls in mixed schools, therefore single-sex schools are better for girls". Based on test results in the UK and in a number of other countries the first part of this statement is well documented, but is the second part, which is a conclusion implying causality, actually correct? Without closer examination it is difficult to know. Further research shows that other factors are at work: (i) single-sex girls schools are often fee-paying, and wealthier families tend to have children who achieve higher academic results than less well-off families (there may be several reasons for this observed finding); (ii) single-sex girls schools are often selective, requiring entrance exams and/or interviews, thus filtering out groups who might under-perform or otherwise affect the academic results achieved; (iii) fee-paying schools often have longer days and more intensive teaching than non-fee paying schools. Put more formally, we can say that the fact that X and Y are correlated, or vary together, tells us relatively little about the causal relationship between X and Y. So, if X and Y vary together in some consistent manner, it might be that X causes Y, or Y causes X or that some set of third variables, Z are involved, such that Z causes X and Z causes Y so that the correlation of X and Y is simply due to their relationship to Z. Establishing causal relationships beyond doubt can be extremely difficult, but is often made easier by careful experimental design, thorough analysis of related factors, and repeated, independent, randomized trials. Recent examples of this kind of inadequate cause-effect reasoning include: the observation that breast cancer rates are higher in countries that have a high fat content in their diet, and then suggesting that women who eat more fat in their diet are more likely to suffer from breast cancer; or that crime rates are higher in areas of high unemployment, and then stating that it is the unemployed who are responsible for most crimes. The inferences drawn may be valid, and such observations can provide very useful pointers for research, but the data only provides very tenuous support for the claims made.


This is exactly what you've done by drawing the conclusion that you have. You're saying that "Blacks have a higher rate of incarceration than whites, therefore blacks are more predisposed to commit crimes." Until you show me hard proof from a reputable source that black people as a race are more predisposed to breaking the law than are white people as a race, then I refute your absurd claim for what it is: racist rhetoric.


By your own words, sir, you have disproved your premise that racism no longer exists.

[Prodigy17]

Until you show me hard proof from a reputable source that black people as a race are more predisposed to breaking the law than are white people as a race

Impossible at the moment.

Hard proof cannot come from stats as they're open to interpretation it would have to come from science. Last I read science is at least 10 years away from proving (or disproving) that there are inherent differences between races.

Until then you'll have to draw your own conclusions from stats etc.

[xmojox]

Hard proof cannot come from stats as they're open to interpretation

Thank you. This is what I, and others on this forum, have been saying.

[Harry Smith]

Impossible at the moment.

Hard proof cannot come from stats as they're open to interpretation it would have to come from science. Last I read science is at least 10 years away from proving (or disproving) that there are inherent differences between races.

Until then you'll have to draw your own conclusions from stats etc.

Why have you been obsessing over prison stats then if no hard proof can be drawn from them.

Also please respond to this. Are these statements incorrect?

1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
3) You've denied Sexism and Racism
4) You've made some racist comments
5) You've missed out large sections of debate
6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid points.

[Blueeyes]

Well the newer generations are sort of 'forgetting?' the racism. Sexism I think is a little bigger IMO.

[Prodigy17]

Why have you been obsessing over prison stats then if no hard proof can be drawn from them.

There is a huge difference between proof and opinion.
Proof. The world is flat. This has been proven - it is a fact.
Opinion. Some people believe there's a god some people don't. These are opinions, there's no way to prove one way or the other.

I still can't believe I had to explain the difference between proof and opinion to a 16 year old.

To me the prison stats show blacks commit more crime than whites. This is my OPINION based on my interpretation of the stats. Obviously I believe my opinion is correct but I cannot PROVE it to be correct. As I noted earlier there is absolutely no way to prove this at the present time.

Is that clear to you now?



1)You've said that gay's act as victims.
I said some gays not all. In fact the only self made millionaire I know is 27 years old and openly gay - clearly I do not consider him to be a victim in any way. Same obviously applies to the many other successful gays in all walks of life.

2) you said that their is something called ' Gay thinking.'
Yes, exhibited by some gays. That is my own phrase obviously

3) You've denied Sexism and Racism.
Ive said repeatedly that whether sexism/racism influence your success is up to you. Clearly some people do not let it limit them but some will do.

4) You've made some racist comments.
That is your opinion - see above for definition of opinion. Going forward I would thank you not to give negative rep for expressing my opinion.

5) You've missed out large sections of debate.
I don't have the time to find and address every single post in this thread, there have been rather a lot directed at me. Hopefully I've picked out most of the important ones.

6) you've ignored Nikki's post about Stephen Lawrence which raised valid
points.
As above.

All clear to you now?

[Harry Smith]

If you two really want to convince yourself that racism/sexism whatever ever other ism still exists then go swap Gaurdian links with each other.

I quoted this from you, you state that racism and sexism don't exist

[Sugaree]

I quoted this from you, you state that racism and sexism don't exist

But from what he's also saying is that it doesn't exist to the degree which many people think it still does. Racism and sexism aren't as prevalent in the 21st century as it was in the mid 20th century or even 18th and 19th centuries.

[Anonimi]

just because there are few female CEO's doesn't mean people really think less of women, its just because women have been thought less of for so long, they still don't frequently get the highest jobs.

racism however is done more purposely because some people still think less of other races

so i would say racism is bigger these days

[Prodigy17]

But from what he's also saying is that it doesn't exist to the degree which many people think it still does. Racism and sexism aren't as prevalent in the 21st century as it was in the mid 20th century or even 18th and 19th centuries.

Bingo! Good to see a bit of common sense in this thread :)

[xmojox]

But from what he's also saying is that it doesn't exist to the degree which many people think it still does. Racism and sexism aren't as prevalent in the 21st century as it was in the mid 20th century or even 18th and 19th centuries.

I've not argued that it isn't getting better, simply that we have a long way to go. He has said repeatedly that neither exist any longer, and to state that blacks are predisposed to commit crime is racist, plain and simple.