With all this talk about gun control let me state the following!

[Zenos]

theres lots of peeps on here and off line screaming for gun control and the disarming of Americans(even from people who live in other nations ) so i'd just like to qoute some rather Famous Americans view points started with those of The Father of our Nation George Washington


"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington, 1790



"Any man who thinks he can be happy and Prosperous by letting the US Government Officials take care of him, better take a closer look at the American Indian."
Henry Ford

[tundravortex]

the first one i agree with because we have a right to have an assault rifle in our house just in case if something does happen but i never heard the second one by henry ford

[Harry Smith]

Firstly I know that Old George has near saint status across the pond but that quote was from 200 years ago when the US still relied on a series of state Miltia's for there security. This is why Washington wanted ' the right to bear arms' so that the Miltia's could still have a degree of power in America. Have you heard of someone called Geronimo? the code name for Osama Bin Laden but also a 19th century native american who was armed and rebelled against the Aggresive 'Manifest destiny'.

[Zenos]

Firstly I know that Old George has near saint status across the pond but that quote was from 200 years ago when the US still relied on a series of state Miltia's for there security. This is why Washington wanted ' the right to bear arms' so that the Miltia's could still have a degree of power in America. Have you heard of someone called Geronimo? the code name for Osama Bin Laden but also a 19th century native american who was armed and rebelled against the Aggresive 'Manifest destiny'.

:rolleyes: Please you are from the UK so please don't dictate and try to explain things about US history to people here in the USA.



White House officials have insisted that the Geronimo was used as the name only for the mission, not bin Laden himself.So please keep you explanations to yourself.



The wisdom that He showed when he made that qoute is just as sound today as then!

Do you really think it's just because of our military alone that we have not had to deal with a foriegn army on our own soil since 1812?

No it's also because the populace has the freedom to own firearms,and we could and would fight any invader!

[Harry Smith]

The CIA had been tracking Bin Laden since 1997, it was only when 9/11 occured that they started to turn up the heat. The name of the Mission was Operation neptune's Spear. Osame Bin Laden strategic code-name was geronimo. After the Navy seals killed Bin Laden the platoon commander shouted 'For God and country—Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo' directly through the radio. Just because I'm british dosen't mean that I dont know anything about US History. What about Guam? I believe japan occupied the island from late october 1941 until the US marines re-captured it. Okay so you say you can fight any invader with your ' own firearms'. If you haven't been invaded since 1812 then why do you need to protect against a foreign army. You have local sheriffs, state police, National Guard and US Army units to protect you from every situation possible. Also I believe the US tried to spread the doctrine of ' arming the populace to fight any invader' to a place called Afganistan. They were effective in arming the Mujahideen and helping them repeal the Soviets. However they are now know as the Taliban and seem to be shooting at Nato

[Kyyle]

Do you really think it's just because of our military alone that we have not had to deal with a foriegn army on our own soil since 1812?


no it's because our country is bordered by Canada and Mexico. who aren't exactly our enemies.

edit: haha so this post got me negative rep, which i don't care about, but it's interesting that this is the kind of thing you get punished for.

[Zenos]

no it's because our country is bordered by Canada and Mexico. who aren't exactly our enemies. since this conversation is only going to be about opinions and emotions and not facts i'm not going to bother with it anymore. the rest ofyou can have fun.

WOW you haven't even posterd anything else and you make it seem like you have ben talking in this thread.

You are partly right about being bordered by Canada and mexico,but it also has to do with teh fact we have an armed populace as well!
Even if you don't think thats part of it!

[Harry Smith]

Well tell me how you would stop all these massarces happening. The sikh temple shooting, the Dark Knight shootin in Colorado, the school massarce in Newtown. How would YOU stop this from happening. By continuing to hand out guns?

[Zenos]

Well tell me how you would stop all these massarces happening. The sikh temple shooting, the Dark Knight shootin in Colorado, the school massarce in Newtown. How would YOU stop this from happening. By continuing to hand out guns?

Tell ya what MR.UK come to the states,become a citizen here and then you'll have soem say as to whether we Americans should have guns are not.

Until then you have no say..got? good?

But for your info if people carried guns these idiots would be far less likely to try these things because they'd know they'd quickly end up on the cutting room floor after having been shot by half a dozen of more armed citizens!

But again until YOU become a citizen of These United States...YOU have no say so as to whether the citizens of this nation can own weapons are not.

[World Eater]

Tell ya what MR.UK come to the states,become a citizen here and then you'll have soem say as to whether we Americans should have guns are not.

Until then you have no say..got? good?

But for your info if people carried guns these idiots would be far less likely to try these things because they'd know they'd quickly end up on the cutting room floor after having been shot by half a dozen of more armed citizens!

But again until YOU become a citizen of These United States...YOU have no say so as to whether the citizens of this nation can own weapons are not.

ಠ_ಠ

Seriously?

[Harry Smith]

I think I pissed of Yankie doodle :L In the words of John Major ' (she) gets angry when she is losing'. Also you didn't seem to answer my question before. Tactical retreat eh?

[Kyyle]

Tell ya what MR.UK come to the states,become a citizen here and then you'll have soem say as to whether we Americans should have guns are not.

Until then you have no say..got? good?

But for your info if people carried guns these idiots would be far less likely to try these things because they'd know they'd quickly end up on the cutting room floor after having been shot by half a dozen of more armed citizens!

But again until YOU become a citizen of These United States...YOU have no say so as to whether the citizens of this nation can own weapons are not.
so does everyone understand now? if you don't live here you are not entitled ot an opinion. and never mind that most of these shooters end up killing themselves after taking out as many people as they can, somehow knowing they will get killed will stop them from shooting up schools and malls and shit. but remember, if you don't live here, you aren't allowed to comment or even have an opinion about it. got? good? since i DO live here, I'm allowed to say "stop being a jerk. people are allowed to disagree without getting their heads chopped off. when you're done reading the 2nd amendment take a look at the 1st amendment."

[Zenos]

so does everyone understand now? if you don't live here you are not entitled ot an opinion. and never mind that most of these shooters end up killing themselves after taking out as many people as they can, somehow knowing they will get killed will stop them from shooting up schools and malls and shit. but remember, if you don't live here, you aren't allowed to comment or even have an opinion about it. got? good? since i DO live here, I'm allowed to say "stop being a jerk. people are allowed to disagree without getting their heads chopped off. when you're done reading the 2nd amendment take a look at the 1st amendment."

Shut Up!

Theres nothing wrong with an opinion,but it when they start using their OPINIONS to try to tell us we should start turning in our guns and implying we are wrong for owning guns that pisses me off!

Again if you're not an American citizen,your opinion on Americans owning guns does not count!

Hmm funny those amendments you mentioned are to the to the United States Constitution ,not the british Magna carta,so actually they only apply within the USA!

[Harry Smith]

Thank you very much Kyle, good to have the voice of reason on my side. I've realised that I'm arguing with a right wing tea party member who dosen't like anyone not having an opinion. I'm fine for you to support the right to bear arms but don't tell me how to react. Thats called fascism

[World Eater]

Shut Up!

Theres nothing wrong with an opinion,but it when they start using their OPINIONS to try to tell us we should start turning in our guns and implying we are wrong for owning guns that pisses me off!

Again if you're not an American citizen,your opinion on Americans owning guns does not count!

No one is forcing their opinion on you.

[Zenos]

Thank you very much Kyle, good to have the voice of reason on my side. I've realised that I'm arguing with a right wing tea party member who dosen't like anyone not having an opinion. I'm fine for you to support the right to bear arms but don't tell me how to react. Thats called fascism

first of all this remark is simply an attempt to Pigeon hole me.

second all you are a citizen of another nation trying to take this self-percieved moral high ground and trying to tell us we the citizens of the US should just hand over our guns.

Plus you are saying I said you couldn't have an opinion,when the fact is you act like your opinion should and does matter here in the USA,when in fact it does not because you are not a citizen of the USA!

Your opinion only counts in a nation when you are a CITIZEN of said nation!

Thats what I was saying.

Your opinion doies not count in the USA becauase you are not a citizen,so how about respecting that FACT,and stop trying to tell us we should up and disarm our citizens when it's OUR CONTITUITIONAL RIGHT to own firearms.

No one is forcing their opinion on you.

Um yeh this guy keeps on with this blah blah blah about guns like we should turn our guns in,so yeh yeh that is forcing an opinion!


Merged. -StoppingTime

[Harry Smith]

You started a post about the Gun Control, didn't you think that someone would comment and say something you disagree with. I merely pointed out the flaws in your theory. I at no point told you to follow my belief. Please tell me how I forced my opinion on you?

[Kyyle]

:violin:
i'm still trying to see where you told him he had to turn in his gun. Since there are a tiny fraction of deaths due to guns in UK than there are here I'd think your opinion is definitly valid. part of me wants to log off off since this is just a waste of time but part of me is enjoying making a vein throb in his forehead while he gets redder and redder but I guess that's just mean of me. I don't want to give anyone a stroke even if he is crazy

[Zenos]

You started a post about the Gun Control, didn't you think that someone would comment and say something you disagree with. I merely pointed out the flaws in your theory. I at no point told you to follow my belief. Please tell me how I forced my opinion on you?

You kept on spouting your opinion when it was explained that the ownership of guns is a right,for americans,and you inferred we don't need guns.

and you kept inferring so hows that not pushing your opinion.

You don't want to own guns fine thats your thing over there,how about keeping it over there.

I don't go spouting off people of other nations they should change their legal system etc etc,because I know my Opinion does not count in the nation,but every time one thing tragic happens here people form nations that do not allow gun ownership rush to the forums to start spreading their opinions to americans left and right and center about the dnagers of gun ownership,and we don't need guns,etc etc.

They don't want us telling them how to run their governments and such but BAMM they forget and start trying to do the same thing to us,when it comes to something thats a fundamnetal right of ours!

[World Eater]

Um yeh this guy keeps on with this blah blah blah about guns like we should turn our guns in,so yeh yeh that is forcing an opinion!

ಠ_ಠ

No, he isn't. He's stating his opinion. There is a difference. I don't see how he or anyone else is trying to enforce their beliefs on you.

[Zenos]

ಠ_ಠ

Seriously?

I suppose you think the opinions of a non-citizen should infact carry weight here in the USA,as to whether the American citizen cna and should have the right to own fire arms?

[Harry Smith]

I have never metioned about taking your fucking guns away. Never those words. I said that they need to control the system because of those poor children. I'm not opposed to firearms. I've been shooting with .22 air rifle, I enjoy it but I still that america needs to change. And please tell me how to run our government?

[World Eater]

I suppose you think the opinions of a non-citizen should infact carry weight here in the USA,as to whether the American citizen cna and should have the right to own fire arms?

No. I raise my middle finger to both sides of this debate and to those outside and inside the U.S. I'm tired of hearing about this debate.

[StoppingTime]

People in England (or anywhere) have just as much a right to state and argue their opinions about U.S. government and laws as much as you, and the same goes for the converse. You have just as much a right to state and argue opinions about their laws.
You don't get any special advantage in a debate because you're an American, and you're debating an American issue.
That's senseless and illogical, and the bashing and yelling at members of other countries need to stop. If they don't this thread will be closed, and you will be infracted.

[Harry Smith]

Thanks for coming in Steven. I admit this did get out of hand

[Zenos]

I have never metioned about taking your fucking guns away. Never those words. I said that they need to control the system because of those poor children. I'm not opposed to firearms. I've been shooting with .22 air rifle, I enjoy it but I still that america needs to change. And please tell me how to run our government?

I don't give my opinion on how other nations should be run.

Again you don't seem to understand the American politician,they do not do things in a reasonable manner.

You meantion control of firearms,and democracts damn near have a mental orgasam trying to devise this way and that way to start telling people what kinda guns they can are can not have.

Sigh!! you'll have to do more then read about American politics to understand how things operate here when it comes to the people in Washington,you'd have to live over here for a while.

They'd sooner take our guns then crack down on drugs and drug dealers,again if the they'd stay out of the citizens 2nd amendment rights, a large portion of this kinda crap wouldn't being going on because the criminal element would know they might end up with a bullet or several bullets in them ending their crime spree in a hurry!

[Harry Smith]

Vigilante justice really? so under your logic you could shoot someone if they are a drug dealer? So you seem to be on the right wing opposing the idea of Big goverment yet you want the goverment to crack down on drug dealers. I would like to see you take on a gang on drug dealing criminals. Please go down to the local meth lab and walk in with your 9mm

[Gigablue]

Just a reminder to stay on topic and to stop with the insults. I don't want to have to lock this thread.

[Harry Smith]

Sorry, just hard after I've been called a lover of king george and accused of being rude and of brainwashing. But dearly noted

[Dooby the potato god]

Sorry to jump in here uninvited, but I'm pretty sure the criminals don't really care whether other people have guns or not, seeing as they'd happily shoot someone regardless. Ok, it may add a bit more risk, but they're already taking a massive risk by committing crimes in the first place.

Now I know this isn't my say (seeing as you seem to believe that British people are uninformed as to how other countries are run) but in all truthfulness gun crimes would more than likely go down if they were illegal / stricter. Don't shout at me for saying it, but the ease of purchasing guns in America is one of the reasons these crimes happen.

[Harry Smith]

hey mate, its fine to jump in. Always good to hear another voice. I agree about the criminals, some 40 year old civie with a 9mm isn't going to scare a drug dealer

[Twilly F. Sniper]

This is a dumb argument. Gun control, no, doesn't need to be legalized, it's on a stupid basis less murder will happen. Ban the knives too. They do just as much harm as a gun.

[Dooby the potato god]

The thing about knives is that they're available to practically anyone, due to the fact that they're almost always needed for cooking. Guns aren't.

Inb4 someone mentions needing to shoot animals.

[Zenos]

Vigilante justice really? so under your logic you could shoot someone if they are a drug dealer? So you seem to be on the right wing opposing the idea of Big goverment yet you want the goverment to crack down on drug dealers. I would like to see you take on a gang on drug dealing criminals. Please go down to the local meth lab and walk in with your 9mm



You are not even wanting to discuss this,you are simply wanting to be argumenative,and trying to twist everything.Plus you have proven yourself to not understand America and how it works here!

Did I say anything about Vigilante justice ? No i did not.

But thats another thing you fail to understand,under US law we can defend ourselves and others with no fear of going to jail if that defence is justified.

Also if for our own safety and the safety of other as in the preservation of life we can use deadly force if we are others are in legit danger of losing our or their lives.

Which means in the case of these shootings if people have been carrying guns they could have legally by OUR LEGAL System used deadly force against these shooters to protect the lives of other people!


As to the law and the government cracking down on drug dealers,yes we do view that as with in their job to crack down on them,but if is within OUR rights to own guns and to be able to defend ourselves.

Yeh I realize you grew up in an unarmed society and ahve been conditioned to believe firearms are bad and the average citizen does not need to be arms,that it's the states job to defend you.

I also know form freinds there in the UK that you have no Self-Defence laws,if you so much as fight a criminal barehanded in self defence you are as likely to end up in jail and as they are,and that if you kill a criminal in self-defence you are looking at not jail but outright prision time.


So please look to your own house before you start telling me I need to change mine!

[Skyline]

I don't think that all weapons should be banned but what the fuck do you need an AR-15 or M-16 or any other assault rifle for?

[StoppingTime]

This debate is going nowhere, and all you've done is bash others and argue their opinion is invalid because of their location.

This is over now. :locked: