The subjectivity of sexuality

[canadaski]

What if nobody has a true sexuality and we are all in effect, bisexual(for lack of a more suitable term) from the start? I don't really want to get into the whole traditional nature vs nurture debate though I can't help but wonder some things. I'm willing to bet that if you raised a group of males(or females) and the idea was given to them they should be together and that's the way it was "meant to be," they would be completely happy with it and not know any different.

Now, one could argue that male/female companions are necessary to procreate. Why procreate? Does it really matter if our species lives for another 100 or 1000 years? Do you really believe that life throughout the universe is an endless chasm of species fighting to be on top and outlive the other for no clear reason? That's a completely different discussion though.

So, could sexuality be an entirely different matter? A non-existent one? Instinct seems like such a bogus concept in any situation, especially given that a species of higher intelligence exists, and with such adept learning and observational powers as the homo sapiens.

[Dunce]

Well, in response to the "why procreate" thing you said, I know it seems weird that every living thing is simply alive to keep it's race going. Like it's weird that if we have no other purpose why life would do that, but that's just what life is. It's all about species surviving. Bacteria don't have sex but they split by binary fission, which is how they keep their species going. Sex just happens to be how we do it.

I like the idea that everyone is born bisexual and then is influenced, but unfortunately I don't think it's true. Not in most cases anyway. There's a new study out that strongly suggests sexuality is determined in the womb. It's still fluid though. Sure sexuality is instinct. That's why most men like women and women like men. It's just instinct teamed with chemicals so they won't leave each other (according to biologists anyway) when they have children. But in homosexual people it's just aimed at the same sex for some reason.

I was just thinking about this the other day... If two men were stranded on an island from a young-ish age, not definitely but they might eventually engage in homosexual activity or even have romantic feelings for each other. Were they gay anyway, or was that cave man instincts kicking in to have sex with someone in order to procreate?
And about that "species of higher intelligence" thing, you are so right, I'm not arguing, but instinct does exist. If a child was dumped in a giant forest, had never ever fed itself, it would probably come across food and know it's food and eat it. That's instinct. And why do you think children get the urge to swing out of railings and most other animals don't? Because we're related to apes! It's in our blood. We are still very much animals.

[FreeFall]

Actually, wouldn't we be pansexual then? If one of the females felt they were better off as male, like something is missing, and go trans? She'd still be female until she can properly have herself re-assigned, just identify as male. If the other females are in the natural disregard for gender and sex, they'd still find their trans friend attractive and completely mate material. Same with the males.
Unless you mean the group of genders/sexes you've been raising will never know the opposite sex/gender, then that wouldn't make them bi-sexual, just homosexual by our standards because we have that term.
But they would only know their gender, their sex, so they'd only know love if we're talking about raising them from birth to never know the opposites of who they are.

Yes, they would be completely happy with that, because you'd have had them groomed. Grooming is prepping a person who knows to trust you and what you teach them, for your personal gain and only for your interests, (since this is an experiment of sexuality) they will accept whatever it is you will do. It's how narcissistic parents get such a terrible hold over their children. If you teach a person from birth, that's what they will know, and they will have no choice in the matter because they've had the idea planted in their head since they could remember.
Now if they meet the females and grow up alongside them, they'll end up feeling shame if they begin to wonder if maybe males don't always go with males, that maybe males can be with females. And that's going against what you taught them, what you said is right, they will feel wrong. Them being told since birth that men go with men doesn't mean they'll necessarily feel that way if they meet females. That's how we how asexual folk, the kind that have no interest in any sex or gender, I forget what class they are labeled as.
Now if you you switch half-way in their lives and let the women meet them, they may "explore". New bodies, new people, it's the human thing. You know, poke it with a stick and see if its dead, type of thing. Some males may venture and some women may venture, they may decide they want to be together. They'll be the scenario equivalence of how some people treat homosexual today, unless you're also instilling tolerance and acceptance of other sexualities.

[canadaski]

"If you teach a person from birth, that's what they will know, and they will have no choice in the matter because they've had the idea planted in their head since they could remember"

True, but isn't that the case for society as it is now? There's a cultural bias telling people what is "right," and what is not the norm. This goes far beyond sexuality and has a direct application to nearly everything we do that has no presence in any case with species of lower intelligence. This happens regardless of people accepting other "sexualities." Establish that procreation and furthering the species are the only goals of male/female intercourse and are completely up to instinct. How are all of things we do, contrary to that purpose any value in today's world. Every female would get pregnant at 13 years old and have 25 children before they die. People are constantly learning subconsciously and consciously to go against their instincts, completely invalidating and therefore tossing those same instincts out the window.

I'm not suggesting that homosexuality is more practical given these terms than heterosexuality is. I'm bringing the notion forward that "true" sexuality cannot exist in an environment such as the one we live.


"they'll end up feeling shame if they begin to wonder if maybe males don't always go with males, that maybe males can be with females"


Maybe, but the numbers should be similar to that of "gay" and "straight" people as we know them. Again with procreation aside, how is that any different. We live quite far away from the norm in other aspects of life, why is this the exception. If nature had it's way, women would give birth, leave their partner and find another as soon as the kids go out in a few years.

A big part of peoples' attitude towards "homosexual" acts is disgust. If you asked a "heterosexual" girl(or guy) to give oral sex to another, a fair chunk would refuse by saying "eww, gross" or "that's disgusting." Disgust is a human concept built from the ground up through teachings and experiences.


If you look objectively at male/female intercourse as a prerequisite for life(not even really true anymore), I guess you could say that everybody is heterosexual. However, if you look realistically at the subject then I suppose nobody is.

[Human]

I think sexuality can be born with or picked up in a way. (I hope that didn't come across wrong for some reason). However I think pretty much everyone is slightly bisexual, if they were to find the right person

[FreeFall]

True, but isn't that the case for society as it is now? There's a cultural bias telling people what is "right," and what is not the norm. This goes far beyond sexuality and has a direct application to nearly everything we do that has no presence in any case with species of lower intelligence. This happens regardless of people accepting other "sexualities." Establish that procreation and furthering the species are the only goals of male/female intercourse and are completely up to instinct. How are all of things we do, contrary to that purpose any value in today's world. Every female would get pregnant at 13 years old and have 25 children before they die. People are constantly learning subconsciously and consciously to go against their instincts, completely invalidating and therefore tossing those same instincts out the window.
Not exactly. There's a difference between you actively trying to get a baby to grow up a certain sexuality and trying to influence it, than seeing a bunch of hetero-sexual couples on TV. More son when also on TV is the support for gay rights, don't say gay think before you speak, and the states struggling to make gay marriage legal. Society influences us yes, but you're original pitch was more of a grooming position to me.
I didn't bring up instincts, don't seem to matter in the stance I took, but you're somewhat wrong in the pro-creation stance. Lesbians, gays, and trans can have just as much drive to have children, pro-create. They can have that drive to want to be parents, just like some straights would rather die than ever be a parent. Will they go find a woman/male to mate with to get that? No. They'll find a baby to call their own some other way.
Yes we can over come our instincts, we've proven that many times as a species, but like it or not they're hard-wired into us and will always be there. Fight or flight mode. Finding food when we're hungry and stranded somewhere. A mother with maternal sense doing everything she can for her baby. Stick a baby in water and it will kick and paddle. Stick your finger in a baby's hand and it will grasp your finger. Twitching when something's on us or feels like it is, like a tingle. Blushing. Yawning. A whole ton of things we do.

I'm not suggesting that homosexuality is more practical given these terms than heterosexuality is. I'm bringing the notion forward that "true" sexuality cannot exist in an environment such as the one we live.
Ironically in the experiment you want, there's no true sexuality either because you'd be planting their minds to love both/all sexes and gender. In a way, won't sexuality always be influenced? Whether you grow up in a straight family with mom and dad or a homosexual family with two dads?

Maybe, but the numbers should be similar to that of "gay" and "straight" people as we know them. Again with procreation aside, how is that any different. We live quite far away from the norm in other aspects of life, why is this the exception. If nature had it's way, women would give birth, leave their partner and find another as soon as the kids go out in a few years.
Because most humans, not every single human ever, are mostly a companion species and would like to stick with one mate if possible? Even for the homosexuals and pan-sexuals and some asexuals. The sterile people would probably prefer to stay with their partner too. And if the male can provide and protect, woman won't be going anywhere. Women don't really fit into the "spread your eggs", it's more the males leave to sow their oats.
At least that's what those scientists like to say, of course there are the other scientists that disagree. But that's the fun of it.
Anyways, I don't understand what you're trying to say based on the quote you grabbed.

How about we not make anyone feel ashamed about their questions, even if the majority was reversed, gay to straight?

A big part of peoples' attitude towards "homosexual" acts is disgust. If you asked a "heterosexual" girl(or guy) to give oral sex to another, a fair chunk would refuse by saying "eww, gross" or "that's disgusting." Disgust is a human concept built from the ground up through teachings and experiences.
Yes, we can develop disgust through learning but I feel we can also develop it on our own. Though I suppose it depends on what your focus is, and in this case I'll disagree. I'm slightly offended too. I'm not disgusted but I'm not YEA gung-ho! Not because someone told me "ew icky gays" everyday since birth but because I am a female. I deal with my vagina and breasts because I have to. I deal with my own discharge, menstrual blood and its few clots that drop out, the smells, the hair, and cleaning it. It turns me off, my own vagina. I love my body, love myself but not other people's vaginas. Focusing on another woman's vagina, I can only imagine blood and the clots sliding out. The hair that traps some blood, the odor, the fact I'd be dealing with a cavern of moist flesh. That I'd feel no sexual or emotional attachment.
It's not for me.


If you look objectively at male/female intercourse as a prerequisite for life(not even really true anymore), I guess you could say that everybody is heterosexual. However, if you look realistically at the subject then I suppose nobody is.
That's not how I was looking at it at all, I was coming more form a you're brain washing/grooming stand. But I suppose you're right in some aspects about it.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

What if nobody has a true sexuality and we are all in effect, bisexual(for lack of a more suitable term) from the start? I don't really want to get into the whole traditional nature vs nurture debate though I can't help but wonder some things. I'm willing to bet that if you raised a group of males(or females) and the idea was given to them they should be together and that's the way it was "meant to be," they would be completely happy with it and not know any different.

Now, one could argue that male/female companions are necessary to procreate. Why procreate? Does it really matter if our species lives for another 100 or 1000 years? Do you really believe that life throughout the universe is an endless chasm of species fighting to be on top and outlive the other for no clear reason? That's a completely different discussion though.

So, could sexuality be an entirely different matter? A non-existent one? Instinct seems like such a bogus concept in any situation, especially given that a species of higher intelligence exists, and with such adept learning and observational powers as the homo sapiens.

Yes I do believe the same. Unless the person is completely incapable of showing emotions to a specific gender. Then maybe not everyone.

[Majin Vegeta]

I was born straight some people were born gay or bi
that's it. I just believe we'll eventually get to a point where it's not even something you think this much about like race

[randomnessqueen]

ofcourse sexuality is subjective.
sexuality has been seen differently in alot of ways all throughout the world and history.