Where was God?

[Cicero]

Here is an excellent video that I completely agree with:

"Where was God?" (http://video.foxnews.com/v/2038135300001/huckabee-where-was-god/)

[Sir Suomi]

Exactly how I feel about our world today. Good post.

[Lost in the Echo]

Yeah, I agree with you.
Shit like this just happens, yes it's sad, but to say "Where was go when this happened?" just makes someone seem like an asshole.
I'm not entirely sure if I believe in god, but blaming god for tradgedies like mass murders is wrong.
All of the blame should be on this person who commits these crimes.
And saying something like "Where was god when this happened?" just starts arguments amongst people.

So yeah, I agree with what you said, completely.

[Mortal Coil]

I wouldn't say it's mocking Christians or any religious people at all. Also, do you honestly believe that we're trying to "get God out of America" when people still use the religious arguments against gay rights and abortion? The question, "where was god" is a perfectly legitimate one. And I know that personally, I'm still waiting on an answer.

[Danny_boi 16]

Mr. Huckabee I agree with this whole video. Thank you for posting this.

[Gigablue]

I couldn't disagree more with the video. Most of what he says is wrong or irrelevant. I took several quotes from his speech. The ones that bothered me the most.

And I said it for fifty years we've sent systematically attempted to have got removed from our schools.

Our public activities but then as the moment we have a calamity we wonder where he was.

He acts as though christians are somehow entitled to special privileges. They aren't. Christianity has had an unfair special status in the US for years, and when people try to get equality for everyone, he acts persecuted.

It's the fact that people sue a city so we are confronted with a Manger scene her Christmas Carol.

That lawsuits are filed to remove a cross that's a memorial to fallen soldiers.

Churches and Christian owned businesses are told to surrender their values under the edict of government orders.

Government money shouldn't be spent on religion, and especially not on only one religion. Getting rid of these ridiculous and unconstitutional uses of tax dollars is a good thing.

To provide tax funded abortion pills.

We carefully and intentionally stop saying things are sinful.

We call them disorders.

Sometimes we even say they're normal.

Here he debates abortion and homosexuality as though they are some attack on christianity. Why is he so threatened by giving equal rights to women and homosexuals?

And that we have to abandon bedrock moral truths.

You don't need religion for morality. I wonder if he has ever even read the bible. It's so filled with hatred.

As soon as the tragedy unfolded.

I think god did show up.

He showed up in the lives of teachers who put their lives between and their students.

He showed up and policeman who rushed into the school.

Not knowing if they would be met with a barrage of bullets.

He showed up in the form of hugs and tears for children parents and teachers would live through the slaughter.

I think this is incredibly offensive to the teachers and police officers that risked their lives to help others. To say that they are incapable of doing good without help from god is awful. He discredits ordinary people and the goodness and bravery within them.

I want to point out that we don't have to pass a new law there's one that's been around a while that works if we teach it and observe it.

Thou shalt not kill.

Well there about nine others.

Once again, he is saying that you need god to be moral. This is incredibly insulting. You can't extrapolate from the actions of one crazy individual to conclude that all of society is bad, and that they need god's help.


I think that the question of where god was is incredibly relevant. Why wouldn't an all powerful, all loving god stop this atrocity before it happened. Is he so bitter that he takes out his anger on innocent children?

[Sugaree]

Huckabee is just so full of himself. He's giving Christians a bad name by playing the pied piper for the right-wing fundies.

[Cicero]

I couldn't disagree more with the video. Most of what he says is wrong or irrelevant. I took several quotes from his speech. The ones that bothered me the most.



He acts as though christians are somehow entitled to special privileges. They aren't. Christianity has had an unfair special status in the US for years, and when people try to get equality for everyone, he acts persecuted.



Government money shouldn't be spent on religion, and especially not on only one religion. Getting rid of these ridiculous and unconstitutional uses of tax dollars is a good thing.



Here he debates abortion and homosexuality as though they are some attack on christianity. Why is he so threatened by giving equal rights to women and homosexuals?



You don't need religion for morality. I wonder if he has ever even read the bible. It's so filled with hatred.



I think this is incredibly offensive to the teachers and police officers that risked their lives to help others. To say that they are incapable of doing good without help from god is awful. He discredits ordinary people and the goodness and bravery within them.



Once again, he is saying that you need god to be moral. This is incredibly insulting. You can't extrapolate from the actions of one crazy individual to conclude that all of society is bad, and that they need god's help.


I think that the question of where god was is incredibly relevant. Why wouldn't an all powerful, all loving god stop this atrocity before it happened. Is he so bitter that he takes out his anger on innocent children?

It's not God who's taking his anger out on innocent children. It's a person. God does say that he gives everyone choices, there is also evil in this world. The majority of what YOU said is incorrect, he said specifically that he believes religion wouldn't have prevented this. And he never attacked homosexuality in that quote, he attacked government funded abortions. You're pulling stuff out of thin air. All he was saying, is that because America is trying to pull god out of everything, we shouldn't be asking "Where's God". We're the ones pulling god out of school, were the ones pulling god out of anything related to the government (even the pledge for gods sake). So obviously this could be a clear sign (that so many Christians have been saying) that god is now stepping away from America. We do remove him from anything and everything else, yet why blame him for not being there during a huge calamity? It's not Gods fault, it's that kid who did the shootings fault. God didn't whisper in that kids ear and say "Hey, you, yeah you, go to a school, and ruthlessly murder 20 kids and 6 teachers. Alright?" It was that one kids doing, not gods. And God has been slowly removed from America since the early 1900s, not just a few years.

[Gigablue]

It's not God who's taking his anger out on innocent children. It's a person. God does say that he gives everyone choices, there is also evil in this world.

If god is omnipotent, he could have stopped the attack. By not doing so, he is as guilty as the perpetrator.

And he never attacked homosexuality in that quote, he attacked government funded abortions. You're pulling stuff out of thin air.

We carefully and intentionally stop saying things are sinful.

We call them disorders.

Sometimes we even say they're normal.

How is that not about homosexuality?

All he was saying, is that because America is trying to pull god out of everything, we shouldn't be asking "Where's God". We're the ones pulling god out of school, were the ones pulling god out of anything related to the government (even the pledge for gods sake). So obviously this could be a clear sign (that so many Christians have been saying) that god is now stepping away from America. We do remove him from anything and everything else, yet why blame him for not being there during a huge calamity?

Why should christianity get special privilege in schools? Why is it mentioned in the pledge (On a side note, under god was only added in the 50s, before then, it wasn't there.) Why is this a sign from the christian god? Couldn't it just as easily be a sign from another god who is just as angry? Also, isn't god supposed to love everyone, despite our deeds? If he is all loving and all powerful, he shouldn't be so petty as to be bothered by politics? Even if he is, why take it out on children?

[Cicero]

If god is omnipotent, he could have stopped the attack. By not doing so, he is as guilty as the perpetrator.





How is that not about homosexuality?



Why should christianity get special privilege in schools? Why is it mentioned in the pledge (On a side note, under god was only added in the 50s, before then, it wasn't there.) Why is this a sign from the christian god? Couldn't it just as easily be a sign from another god who is just as angry? Also, isn't god supposed to love everyone, despite our deeds? If he is all loving and all powerful, he shouldn't be so petty as to be bothered by politics? Even if he is, why take it out on children?

He gives everyone choices. Huckabee never said homosexuality, your making untrue, false assumptions. If America as a. Whole acts like they're so against God, then God will do exactly what America wants and leave them be.

[TigerBoy]

Mr. Huckabee, as we share a common Christian and denominational heritage, l am stunned by the small view of God you have embraced. To speak of kicking God out of our classrooms or prohibiting the presence of God in our schools strikes me as blasphemy. The God I meet in Scripture, the God I saw revealed in the life of Jesus, cannot any more be kicked out of a classroom than a genuine prayer of the heart can be banned by any authority in any setting.

In my work, I also have come to understand that questioning God, or, yes, even rejecting God, is not an indicator of one's moral character. Frankly, I would find myself in a questioning or denying situation spiritually if someone tried to force me to believe in a God as inept as the God you describe.

Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dr-c-welton-gaddy/an-open-letter-to-mike-huckabee_b_2323040.htm)

[Gigablue]

He gives everyone choices. Huckabee never said homosexuality, your making untrue, false assumptions. If America as a. Whole acts like they're so against God, then God will do exactly what America wants and leave them be.

Why would he give people the choice to kill children? Shouldn't he protect them?

Also, it was implied that he was talking about homosexuality. Saying that "we stop saying some things are sinful" is talking about people accepting homosexuality. It was originally called a "disorder" and now people say its "normal".

How do you know it's the Christian god who is angry. Maybe Zeus is angry about not being recognized in the US. You can't conclude that the Christian god is angry, since it hasn't even been proven that he exists.

[Jean Poutine]

Aren't God's ways impenetrable and closed to human scrutiny anyway? Funny how that works both ways. Christians try to explain but when they can't it's "I DONT KNOW HIS DIVINE WILL IS BEYOND US HUMANS"

Maybe He's happy that we're kicking him out of our lives. Less work for Him to listen to all this bullshit and I'm sure, as any good father does, He wishes we could leave home already and stop depending on Him for moral support so much.

But God doesn't really exist so He can't exactly be...anywhere. Or think anything.

[Apollo.]

This is utterly ridiculous! Even if god did exist I would think he was a bit of a bell end for waiting until somebody's shot a load of innocent kids to "show up". It's just more crap made up by the church/religious nutters to try and force their beliefs on the rest of society. The fact that they use disasters like this to try and suck other people into their fairy tale is disgusting!

[Lights]

He gives everyone choices. Huckabee never said homosexuality, your making untrue, false assumptions. If America as a. Whole acts like they're so against God, then God will do exactly what America wants and leave them be.

I think that he indirectly mentioned homosexuality. It's not as if you really can call anything abortion related a disorder, is it? The difference is, like Gigablue said, for a very long time homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder.

Some Christians still maintain that view to this day, especially in African countries like Uganda where they are currently trying to pass the 'Kill the Gays' bill. Many homophobic Ugandans justify their discrimination by arguing things like how 'Gays target other people’s children because they don’t have their own to enlist.' and 'Homosexuality destroys man’s capacity for procreation, the taste of human life and eventually life itself.' I'm not saying Christians in the Western world are like this at all, but I think they do share the view that homosexuality is wrong for reasons such as 'destroying man's capacity for procreation'.

Anyway, I may have digressed a little. I think the first quote I have about 'gays targeting other people's children...' reflects the view some hold that homosexuality is a mental disorder because it suggests they are possessed or something alike.

Lastly, is it not said that God is love and that his love is unconditional and based off agape? If this is so, why would God abandon America if they hypothetically turned their backs on him? You make God sound like a child throwing its toys out of its pram. If the people aren't nice to God then God won't be nice to the people and he'll turn his back on them. That doesn't sound very loving to me. It sounds petty - but maybe that's just what I've interpreted from the way you've expressed your views.

[Cicero]

I think that he indirectly mentioned homosexuality. It's not as if you really can call anything abortion related a disorder, is it? The difference is, like Gigablue said, for a very long time homosexuality was considered to be a mental disorder.

Some Christians still maintain that view to this day, especially in African countries like Uganda where they are currently trying to pass the 'Kill the Gays' bill. Many homophobic Ugandans justify their discrimination by arguing things like how 'Gays target other people’s children because they don’t have their own to enlist.' and 'Homosexuality destroys man’s capacity for procreation, the taste of human life and eventually life itself.' I'm not saying Christians in the Western world are like this at all, but I think they do share the view that homosexuality is wrong for reasons such as 'destroying man's capacity for procreation'.

Anyway, I may have digressed a little. I think the first quote I have about 'gays targeting other people's children...' reflects the view some hold that homosexuality is a mental disorder because it suggests they are possessed or something alike.

Lastly, is it not said that God is love and that his love is unconditional and based off agape? If this is so, why would God abandon America if they hypothetically turned their backs on him? You make God sound like a child throwing its toys out of its pram. If the people aren't nice to God then God won't be nice to the people and he'll turn his back on them. That doesn't sound very loving to me. It sounds petty - but maybe that's just what I've interpreted from the way you've expressed your views.

Well, I'm not really that religious. Yes I am apart of a Christian branch. But I'm not someone like a hardcore Christian or a priest.

But maybe God would turn his back on America because he knows that they're trying to remove him from everything. Ever heard of the proticle son story (or however it's spelled)? Maybe were the son, and God is just releasing us to our own demise. Think about it like this, why did the Roman Empire fall if God is love? As you know, they were Israel's enemy, and they turned their back on God. So God let them do what they want without him. Think about all those people killed in Ancient Greece or Rome, they didn't want God. So god left them to their own.

Everyone seems to mentions Gods love, but what about an all fearing, powerful, and loving God? Back in Jesus' time, people feared disobeying God. Yes, actually feared. Yes, God is powerful, loving, all fearing, and he even is just. America is removing God from anything and everything, and America is turning into a God hating culture that mocks him. So he's probably like, "Alright, if you don't want me then I will leave you to your own". Lets face it, the way culture is heading, it's automatically teaching people to hate God. Is that good? I don't know you decide.
God does say that murderers, thieves, homosexuals, liars, adulterers, etc will not go to heaven. Does that sound loving to you? Or is it because God is so perfect he cannot accept sin into heaven, God is too holy for that. For someone to be holy, sin cannot be present, if sin was present. Wouldn't that mean that god isn't holy and perfect? What God wants of people, is to repent from sin. If they stumble, they get up and try again, the best they can. And to accept Jesus into our lives.

When I say God is all fearing, what I mean by that is that you should fear sinning. God doesn't want people to take sin lightly, God wants people to fear using his name in vain. And today's culture glorifies sin, is that bad? According to humanity, it isn't, according to God, it is. Is sinning fun? He'll yeah.

I do tend to take religion very lightly FYI. Most of what I said is in the bible, some of it doesn't express my personal views. But I do agree with huckabee. We're turning on God and trying to systematically remove him from everything, yet during something bad, we ask for God. God isn't a genie that comes from a lamp. God isn't going to try to chase after an entire nation saying "Hey, can you please worship me, pretty please" God isn't going to do that. God will wait for us, but he will allow us to stray away from him, and either completely remove him, or go back to him.

When you think bout it. We're using God when it's good on OUR terms. But God doesn't work like that. God doesn't work on humanities terms. If he did, humanity would be even more fucked up. How so? Imagine Nazi Germany, if God was a genie, where would we be if Nazi Germany got their ways? God doesn't work on anyone's terms, but his. If God wanted, we would all be robots. We would have no free will, but, we wouldn't even realize we didn't have free will. But God made satan knowing that people would want to control their own lives.

There are two results of these types of catastrophes. People either turn to God and pray (like New Town is doing, asking for prayers) or they blame God for these catastrophes (which seems more popular on here).

To wrap up all I said in less detail...
God isn't like a child. If America wants him out. Then he will get out of America way, and leave America to its own. Don't think of this like a child, think of it like this, if you were to say Fuck you, I don't need you , to your parents (assuming your 18+), they would always be their for you. But they would probably allow you to go off and do what you wanted to do. But when you realize you do actually need them. They're arms (for most parents) would be wide open for you. That's like God. America is the 18+ year old child saying "Fuck you God, we don't need or want you", so God will allow America to go off and do what they want. But if we stumble, and if we can't do it on our own. We can go back to our father (God) and he will have open arms for us. That's the all loving God the bible shows us. He accepts us. But it's not like a game, he will know if we're sincere or if we're just using him. I were sincere, he'll accept, if we're not, he won't. That's a hypothetical of the situation.

God is also supposed to be holy. If he were to allow sin into heaven, then that would make him unholy and not perfect. For someone to be holy and perfect, they must be without sin. (To fix this that's why Jesus exists, and that's why we repent. It's alright to make mistakes, but we have to keep trying). Anyone can go to heaven if they repent and if they sincerely allow Jesus into their lives. That's another example of Gods love.

God wants people to fear sinning. That's also how he's all fearing. Back in Jesus' time. People feared to sin.

[TheBigUnit]

he said it well, is he still a senator/rep?

[Cicero]

he said it well, is he still a senator/rep?

Nope. I'm surprised you agree with what he said lol

[Gigablue]

My biggest problem with the whole argument is that it assumes the existence of the Christian god, something which is far from prove. If someone can prove the Christian god exists, then the argument has some merit, but until then, it is irrelevant. You could just as easily say that Thor is angry about not being recognized in the US and is exacting his revenge. You can't speculate about the motives of supernatural beings without first proving their existence.

But maybe God would turn his back on America because he knows that they're trying to remove him from everything. Ever heard of the proticle son story (or however it's spelled)? Maybe were the son, and God is just releasing us to our own demise. Think about it like this, why did the Roman Empire fall if God is love? As you know, they were Israel's enemy, and they turned their back on God. So God let them do what they want without him. Think about all those people killed in Ancient Greece or Rome, they didn't want God. So god left them to their own.

It's called the parable of the prodigal son. I don't think the analogy to Rome applies. The Roman Empire fell for other reasons, saying that it fell because they weren't Christian is simply wrong.

Everyone seems to mentions Gods love, but what about an all fearing, powerful, and loving God? Back in Jesus' time, people feared disobeying God. Yes, actually feared. Yes, God is powerful, loving, all fearing, and he even is just. America is removing God from anything and everything, and America is turning into a God hating culture that mocks him. So he's probably like, "Alright, if you don't want me then I will leave you to your own". Lets face it, the way culture is heading, it's automatically teaching people to hate God. Is that good? I don't know you decide.

Letting a lunatic kill children is not justice. If he was angry but just, he would punish the politicians and atheist activists. There is no way in which killing children, or letting them die through inaction, just to make a point, is okay.

God does say that murderers, thieves, homosexuals, liars, adulterers, etc will not go to heaven. Does that sound loving to you? Or is it because God is so perfect he cannot accept sin into heaven, God is too holy for that. For someone to be holy, sin cannot be present, if sin was present. Wouldn't that mean that god isn't holy and perfect? What God wants of people, is to repent from sin. If they stumble, they get up and try again, the best they can. And to accept Jesus into our lives.

What's wrong with homosexuality? Don't tell me the bible says its wrong, that's not a good reason. I doesn't hurt anyone, so why punish it?

If god made us, why not make us so that we don't sin? Why would a perfect being create such flawed beings, then punish them for being imperfect?

When I say God is all fearing, what I mean by that is that you should fear sinning. God doesn't want people to take sin lightly, God wants people to fear using his name in vain. And today's culture glorifies sin, is that bad? According to humanity, it isn't, according to God, it is. Is sinning fun? He'll yeah.

Why is an all powerful being offended because some person misuses his name? It just seems trivial. Also, can't god just forgive people for sinning, especially since he created us to be flawed?

When you think bout it. We're using God when it's good on OUR terms. But God doesn't work like that. God doesn't work on humanities terms. If he did, humanity would be even more fucked up. How so? Imagine Nazi Germany, if God was a genie, where would we be if Nazi Germany got their ways? God doesn't work on anyone's terms, but his. If God wanted, we would all be robots. We would have no free will, but, we wouldn't even realize we didn't have free will. But God made satan knowing that people would want to control their own lives.

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make the nazi Germany.

Why wouldn't god make us to be robots. If he gave us free will, he shouldn't punish us for how we use it. He should at the very lease give better guidance on making good choices.

Also, why make satan? If you want everyone to be good, don't make a powerful, evil being capable of influencing others.

There are two results of these types of catastrophes. People either turn to God and pray (like New Town is doing, asking for prayers) or they blame God for these catastrophes (which seems more popular on here).

What good does praying after a disaster do? It's not like it will bring the victims back to life. And I think that if there is a god who let this happen, he is just as guilty as the shooter.

God is also supposed to be holy. If he were to allow sin into heaven, then that would make him unholy and not perfect. For someone to be holy and perfect, they must be without sin. (To fix this that's why Jesus exists, and that's why we repent. It's alright to make mistakes, but we have to keep trying). Anyone can go to heaven if they repent and if they sincerely allow Jesus into their lives. That's another example of Gods love.

Why not just make the people perfect? Why go through the hassle with Jesus? It would be more loving to forgive everyone and make them perfect than to only forgive some people.

[CharlieHorse]

Just to throw my fruit in the pile, I'm an atheist, and I completely disregard a worship-oriented religion. It's not an excuse, or a reason for anything. They only exist to comfort some people.

[CharlieHorse]

Why not just make the people perfect? Why go through the hassle with Jesus? It would be more loving to forgive everyone and make them perfect than to only forgive some people.

Because! It makes great movie plots :p
Plus, there wouldn't be those episodes of south park if it weren't for J-dawg. Lol

[TheBigUnit]

Nope. I'm surprised you agree with what he said lol

Well there's a first for everything ha, he is right though because we completely reject the existence of God until disaster strikes then we all hold vigils and pray together, we rejects anything about God and declare this country free of God until we are hurt then come together reading Bibles proclaiming that we are a christian nation

[Cicero]

My biggest problem with the whole argument is that it assumes the existence of the Christian god, something which is far from prove. If someone can prove the Christian god exists, then the argument has some merit, but until then, it is irrelevant. You could just as easily say that Thor is angry about not being recognized in the US and is exacting his revenge. You can't speculate about the motives of supernatural beings without first proving their existence.



It's called the parable of the prodigal son. I don't think the analogy to Rome applies. The Roman Empire fell for other reasons, saying that it fell because they weren't Christian is simply wrong.



Letting a lunatic kill children is not justice. If he was angry but just, he would punish the politicians and atheist activists. There is no way in which killing children, or letting them die through inaction, just to make a point, is okay.



What's wrong with homosexuality? Don't tell me the bible says its wrong, that's not a good reason. I doesn't hurt anyone, so why punish it?

If god made us, why not make us so that we don't sin? Why would a perfect being create such flawed beings, then punish them for being imperfect?



Why is an all powerful being offended because some person misuses his name? It just seems trivial. Also, can't god just forgive people for sinning, especially since he created us to be flawed?



I really don't understand the point you are trying to make the nazi Germany.

Why wouldn't god make us to be robots. If he gave us free will, he shouldn't punish us for how we use it. He should at the very lease give better guidance on making good choices.

Also, why make satan? If you want everyone to be good, don't make a powerful, evil being capable of influencing others.



What good does praying after a disaster do? It's not like it will bring the victims back to life. And I think that if there is a god who let this happen, he is just as guilty as the shooter.



Why not just make the people perfect? Why go through the hassle with Jesus? It would be more loving to forgive everyone and make them perfect than to only forgive some people.

I never said that it was justice letting a killer do that. I just said that God is just. I never said homosexuality was wrong, I just said according to the bible it was. I don't know why god made us. As I've said before I'm not a priest or super religious guy. God made satan to allow us to have choices. If he didn't allow us choices we would be robots to god. But god didn't want that. God did create a way of forgiving, that way is allowing Jesus in your life. He gave Adam and Eve a choice, by creating satan, he allowed 2 choices, listen to god or listen to satan. Praying helps give peace to the soul, figuratively. For Christians it provides peace and ease of mind. Overall Christianity is a faith, there is science to both prove Christianity or disprove it. I'm done debating with you, because this will go on forever and it will never end. We have opposite views, you can keep providing your side of arguments whil I can with my side of arguments and replies. Alright. You believe that god is guilty, good for you. I've replied to all this before, and I've done it yet again in this post. Is this me giving up? Yes. Why? Because this could be neverending and I'm to lazy to reply with posts this long to someone who would never, ever agree with Christianity or what the bible says. Christianity will always be able to defend itself, while the secular world will always find ways to attack it. One thing that cannot be proven or disproven, is whether or not God exists. Jesus can even be proven (Shroud of Turin). The Ark can be proven. Historical places in the bible can be proven. But this isn't a debate about that. Also, according to the bible, God did provide ways to follow him and a way to understand his will, it's called the bible.
God didn't make us flawed. Satan and sin made us flawed. He made lucifer, lucifer decided to try to be better than god, god sent him and his angels to a place called hell, a place he created. God created Adam and Eve, then lucifer who is now satan tried to tempt them. They had a choice, they fell victim to sin. The punishment was a life of hardship and even pain (like the pain of giving birth, and death itself. Before all that ever happened, god created them perfect and even holy. Until sin corrupted them. God took lucifer out of heaven because he sinned, because god cannot allow sin, lucifer and his angels were cast to hell. Their mission is to try to tempt everyone on earth to sin and not follow god, so that they too, may burn in hell with satan. Because satan is the root of all evil, and one of those is selfishness, which is thought of to be evil In the bible.

I answered all your questions. Bt of course your gonna find something else wrong, because, frankly, it relates to the bible and your views are completely opposite of it. And if your views are opposite of the bible, your going to find what I said incorrect somehow.

[Jean Poutine]

The Roman Empire fell for other reasons, saying that it fell because they weren't Christian is simply wrong.


And wrong, because near the end of its reign, the WRE was very much Christian.

[Cicero]

And wrong, because near the end of its reign, the WRE was very much Christian.

Yep. Toward the end of its reign they became Christian.

[Apollo.]

Yep. Toward the end of its reign.

So when the Roman Empire became Christian that's when it fell? Great argument to be Christian!

[Jean Poutine]

Yep. Toward the end of its reign.

You dug your own grave. I am impressed.

[Cicero]

So when the Roman Empire became Christian that's when it fell? Great argument to be Christian!

I'm not saying it fell because it was Christian or because it wasn't. The bible actually says that "Nations will hate you for saying my name". Which means that any Christian will be hated by nations that pronounce Jesus' name. The bible actually says that being a Christian is very hard in the secular world. But the Roman Empire was only influenced by Christianity toward its end, but the 75%+ of the time they mocked and denounced God. Which doesn't go unseen or unpunished.

[Apollo.]

I'm not saying it fell because it was Christian.

That's what it looks like to me, I'm pretty sure it looks like that to other people reading that as well.

Even with your edit basically the empire was fine until they became Christian and then it fell. To me that screams don't believe in god otherwise he will fuck you up.

[Jean Poutine]

I'm not saying it fell because it was Christian or because it wasn't. The bible actually says that "Nations will hate you for saying my name". Which means that any Christian will be hated by nations that pronounce Jesus' name. The bible actually says that being a Christian is very hard in the secular world. But the Roman Empire was only influenced by Christianity toward its end, but the 75%+ of the time they mocked and denounced God. Which doesn't go unseen or unpunished.

And the just punishment for that is the obliteration of the WRE?

What happened to God will forgive you if you repent? Converting the whole (not just the Western part) Empire to Christianity surely is a sign of repentance?

For hundreds of years, my people have been subjugated by the Catholic Church. Our destiny was in the hands of what the archbishop said, and local parish priests were considered a bit of everything and had enormous sway over the population. Churches were full and so were its coffers. Priests had so much power over family units that they would actually decide when a given couple had enough children, leading to families with 15-20 children. For hundreds of years, my people gave everything to the Catholic Church, we bunched together against the English Protestants and the whole province was fervent to a point where Saudi Arabia would die of jealousy. We were one, Catholic and French under God and we counted on His protection to survive.

Economic prosperity and intellectual enlightenment, along with all the values we now hold dear, which define an advanced, democratic, peaceful country came along after we kicked the Church out of our lives. Today, my people are among the least religious in North America, on par with certain European countries.

We gave, we gave, we recieved naught but oppression, corruption, injustice. We were told God's vision for us was to remain an agrarian, closed off community, and to that end we toiled, because being educated is being a subversive risk. We were farmers - education was for the clergy.

Then came what we call the Quiet Revolution where we threw God and the Church out of the picture. Afterwards, we were able to follow our own destiny. We thrived, and still thrive in a sea of 350 million English speakers, us, a tiny community of about 10 million.

We called on God to protect our community when it was imperiled and it made our lives suck. We told God to sod off and we are now rich, educated, liberal, open, fighting for equality and justice not only on our land, but internationally. And we are definitely not calling upon God when times are hard. Our hardships are over and were directly caused by the worship of God.

Where is God? Anywhere but in my motherland, and I like it so. We have forsaken God as a nation and we have thrived, and we know what calling on God in times of hardship does. By the way, we call that period of time where God was everything in our lives "la grande noirceur", or in English, "the great darkness".

Makes you think, don't it? Americans don't know what it's like to be a God-fearing nation, as much as their Constitution and money proclaims the name. I do. We do. It sucks.

[Cicero]

And the just punishment for that is the obliteration of the WRE?

What happened to God will forgive you if you repent? Converting the whole (not just the Western part) Empire to Christianity surely is a sign of repentance?

For hundreds of years, my people have been subjugated by the Catholic Church. Our destiny was in the hands of what the archbishop said, and local parish priests were considered a bit of everything and had enormous sway over the population. Churches were full and so were its coffers. Priests had so much power over family units that they would actually decide when a given couple had enough children, leading to families with 15-20 children. For hundreds of years, my people gave everything to the Catholic Church, we bunched together against the English Protestants and the whole province was fervent to a point where Saudi Arabia would die of jealousy. We were one, Catholic and French under God and we counted on His protection to survive.

Economic prosperity and intellectual enlightenment, along with all the values we now hold dear, which define an advanced, democratic, peaceful country came along after we kicked the Church out of our lives. Today, my people are among the least religious in North America, on par with certain European countries.

We gave, we gave, we recieved naught but oppression, corruption, injustice. We were told God's vision for us was to remain an agrarian, closed off community, and to that end we toiled, because being educated is being a subversive risk. We were farmers - education was for the clergy.

Then came what we call the Quiet Revolution where we threw God and the Church out of the picture. Afterwards, we were able to follow our own destiny. We thrived, and still thrive in a sea of 350 million English speakers, us, a tiny community of about 10 million.

We called on God to protect our community when it was imperiled and it made our lives suck. We told God to sod off and we are now rich, educated, liberal, open, fighting for equality and justice not only on our land, but internationally. And we are definitely not calling upon God when times are hard. Our hardships are over and were directly caused by the worship of God.

Where is God? Anywhere but in my motherland, and I like it so. We have forsaken God as a nation and we have thrived, and we know what calling on God in times of hardship does. By the way, we call that period of time where God was everything in our lives "la grande noirceur", or in English, "the great darkness".

Makes you think, don't it? Americans don't know what it's like to be a God-fearing nation, as much as their Constitution and money proclaims the name. I do. We do. It sucks.

Was this a quote from somewhere or is this like a poem? Who is "my people"?
And actually, Christianity says to question your faith, so that it may be stronger. Christianity never said not to get an education, some Christian priests/pastors actually say God wants us to be wealthy and successful in life. God will not bless those who sit on their asses all day. If you ask him to help you become a doctor, yet you put in no effort. You won't become a doctor, you can't expect God to help you if you won't help yourself. So I'm kinda confused, what you said sounds like those people asked God for something yet didn't do anything to help themselves. I do not know of a single Christian who has ever said not to get an education. Is this an Amish community you're speaking of?

[Sir Suomi]

That's what it looks like to me, I'm pretty sure it looks like that to other people reading that as well.

Even with your edit basically the empire was fine until they became Christian and then it fell. To me that screams don't believe in god otherwise he will fuck you up.

Actually, the true fall of the Roman Empire came in 1453 A.D, as the Byzantine Empire(Which was basically the medieval version of Rome) lost Contantinople to the Turks. Christianity was fully accepted in 325 A.D in the Romen Empire. So you cannot say "As soon as Rome believed in God they were fucked". If you try to state this, you obviously do not know your history, and therefore, are making yourself look stupid. Also, England, who traditionally have been Christian, was founded in 927 A.D, and still currently in 2012 is still around, even though they were mainly Christians(For majority of their history, although other religions are now present in the U.K).

So in summary of all that, know your damn history before you make assumptions like that. Good day sir.

[Jean Poutine]

If you try to state this, you obviously do not know your history, and therefore, are making yourself look stupid.

You're cute. You do know what the acronym WRE stands for, right?

Western Roman Empire, which we were talking about as if we wanted to talk about the ERE we would have simply said the Byzantine Empire. As is the convention, you know, everywhere.

Actually, the true fall of the Roman Empire came in 1453 A.D, as the Byzantine Empire(Which was basically the medieval version of Rome) lost Contantinople to the Turks. Christianity was fully accepted in 325 A.D in the Romen Empire. So you cannot say "As soon as Rome believed in God they were fucked".

Yeah you can say that, because Rome was lost to the barbarians when Odoacer deposed the last WR emperor, still a child, just 100 years after adopting Christianity. It is also intellectually dishonest to speak of a Roman Empire after this date because Rome will not be under Byzantine control until Justinian II and his general, Belisarius, go on a romp conquering together, and they will lose the city very soon after anyway. After the barbarian conquest, talking about the east like the Roman Empire, no matter what they viewed themselves as, makes as much sense as talking about a French Empire without metropolitan France. That is to say, none. After Odoacer gets his ass reamed there is Byzantium then there is dumbfuck barbarian land.

In resume, nobody cares. You split hairs in an attempt to make yourself look good, blatantly, at the expense of another. That is what makes one look stupid.

[TigerBoy]

Was this a quote from somewhere or is this like a poem?
It was quite eloquent, wasn't it?


Who is "my people"?

I thought there were enough clues there to work that out myself. Look at where Forseti lives, look at the history of that country, look at minority language groups within that country. Not too hard to work out, surely?

And actually, Christianity says to question your faith, so that it may be stronger. Christianity never said not to get an education, some Christian priests/pastors actually say God wants us to be wealthy and successful in life. God will not bless those who sit on their asses all day. If you ask him to help you become a doctor, yet you put in no effort. You won't become a doctor, you can't expect God to help you if you won't help yourself.
The Catholics have a long and well documented history of controlling access and content of education and many academics have documented it as a key part of their strategies for social control (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2541523?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101463453383). It is noteworthy what happens when they clash with others who wish to do the same, such as in the case of Mussolini for example. The degree of control that religions have wielded through control of education throughout history is a significant part of the reason for separation of Church and State in the US.


So I'm kinda confused, what you said sounds like those people asked God for something yet didn't do anything to help themselves.
Where does it state or imply that those people didn't try to help themselves? Seems to me you are attempting to generate a strawman argument here.

So in summary of all that, know your damn history before you make assumptions like that. Good day sir.
Irrespective of the actual dates involved, Nick has made no assertions as to what those dates are. He was simply commenting on the relative sequence of the two events as claimed by Tacitus (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2060428&postcount=26). If you have a problem with the technicalities of history as related in this thread, you need to take it up with Tacitus, not Nick.

[ImCoolBeans]

OP request :locked: