Connecticut 'gunman dead' after US school shooting

[TigerBoy]

Live updates. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267) at the BBC.

Twenty children and six adults have been killed in a shooting attack at a primary school in the US state of Connecticut, police say.

Police Lt Paul Vance said the gunman was also dead, but gave no cause.

US media said the gunman at Sandy Hook Elementary School, Newtown, as Ryan Lanza, 24, said to be from New Jersey, but police gave no confirmation.

The killings make Newtown the second-worst US shooting, after 32 died at Virginia Tech in 2007.

Friday's shooting is the third major gun attack in the US in 2012.

In July an attacker killed 12 people at a premiere of a Batman film in Aurora, Colorado. In August six people died at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.

Just this week two people died in a shooting at a shopping mall in the state of Oregon.

At the White House, an emotional President Barack Obama cited those incidents as he called for "meaningful action... regardless of politics".

"Our hearts are broken today, for the parents, grandparents, sisters and brothers of these children, and for the families of the adults who were lost."

Mr Obama offered condolences to the families of survivors too, saying "their children's innocence has been torn away from them too early, and there are no words that will ease their pain".

He wiped tears from his eyes as he spoke of the "overwhelming grief" at the loss of life.

The American flags on Capitol Hill in Washington DC have been lowered to half-mast in the wake of the attack.

Sandy Hook School - described by correspondents as a highly rated school has more than 600 students in classes from Kindergarten to 4th Grade - spanning the ages five to 10.

Lt Vance said 18 children were pronounced dead at the school, and two died after they were taken to hospital. Six adults were also killed. The gunman died at the scene.

The attack took place in two rooms within a single section of the school, he said.

One person was also injured in the attack, Lt Vance added.

Police said there was another victim at a second crime scene, but did not provide details.

Police arrived at the school soon after 09:40 local time (14:40 GMT), answering reports that a gunman was in the school's main office and one person had "numerous gunshot wounds".

Scores of officers at the scene carried out a full search of the site. Classes were cancelled as the situation developed.

Schools across the district were immediately on lock-down as a preventive measure, officials said.

According to US reports, the gunman's mother was a teacher found among the dead at the school. The Associated Press said his brother was being held by police.

The attacker was dressed in black and wearing a bullet-proof vest during the attack, and reportedly used a .223-calibre rifle. Other weapons are also said to have been recovered.

With the death toll rising, it emerged that one entire classroom of students may remain unaccounted for, local sources reported.

Three other people were taken to hospital and are reported to be in "very serious condition", Danbury Mayor Mark Boughton told CNN.

One witness speaking to CNN said that shots were heard coming from the hall. There "must have been 100 rounds" fired, she told the channel.

Local media have reported that firefighters instructed children to close their eyes and run past the school's office as they exited the building.

Other sources suggest that some of the shots were fired in a school classroom.

There were early unconfirmed reports of two shooters, but no further details of a second gunman mentioned by police.
Map

With the children now evacuated, aerial images of the school show emergency vehicles still at the scene and scores of cars surrounding the area.

Parents and children were seen weeping and comforting friends and family at the school as the scale of the shooting gradually became clear. Officials say they are trying to unite children with their parents.


Source BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20730717)


I've updated this based on the breaking news updates. Olly.

[FreeFall]

I had to turn off the news when the came on.
Breaks my heart.

Only the wicked and evil have enough sense to go into a place, where children, babies! are all together collectively and terrify them, shoot at them, kill them.
Those little kids had no business being scared for their lives, no right to be terrified like that. Their screaming and wailing, fucking gonna have nightmares about that.

It's good the monsters that terrified them are dead. They don't even get a chance at the insanity plea. Which you know, being good old America in the north no less, they would've been tapped on the head, re-evaluated for mental health and get off for not being in their right mind. Yet they've enough sense to grab a gun and rip a part that community. There's a special place in hell. Satan's creating a new one for them though.

[Emerald Dream]

Now reporting that at least 27 are dead, some of which are children. "Monster" isn't strong enough to describe a person who would do this.

Whatever bullshit reason you THINK you might have in your mind for going into an elementary school and shooting...your "problem" pales in comparison to the lives and families you have destroyed. You deserve to be in hell forever, asshole. In fact, you got lucky for dying yourself.

[Lost in the Echo]

This is sad and awful.
I hope there is a hell, so that whoever did this burns in it.

[StoppingTime]

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-police-responding-to-incident-in-newtown-20121214,0,3969911.story

That's a more up-to-date article, and now they have confirmed that 20 children were killed.

I live not too far from here, which really makes this disturbing for me.

[Thanatos]

As someone currently studying in order to become a Middle School-High School teahcer, and who's mother works in an elementary school, this absolutely shook me to the core. I have been sitting with my floormates in my dorm watching as more and more announcements and revelations are made. This is horrifying that anyone could do this.

[Noirtier]

The man who did this is one sick individual. Even things like Columbine, or the Virginia Tech shootings, those were at least older people. Shootings in public places are with older people. But to intentionally go into an elementary school, with the sole intention of shooting and killing young kids? That's just fucked up. Heartbreaking was a good word that FreeFall used to describe it, I was in utter shock when I heard about it on the radio. Then it turned to panic, because I know someone close to me who lives in Connecticut, then once that passed and I knew he was alright, it was total just, rage. It seems the people who do this always turn the gun on themselves. It just leaves one question unanswered: Why?

[World Eater]

This is very sad. However, this is life and anything can happen. There really are some twisted people out there, but what can you do?

[TigerBoy]

This is very sad. However, this is life and anything can happen. There really are some twisted people out there, but what can you do?

Apathy in the face of horror won't improve the world for the better.

When we know more facts in this case it may be possible to answer your question more precisely. If you want an example of what can come out of such things, the Norwegian shootings report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gj%C3%B8rv_Report_%282012%29)found that much more could have been done to respond faster to the incident and to monitor and investigate the perpetrator based on knowledge of him in relation to the car bombing.

In this case there were questions about how their security failed to stop the gunman, that seems quite an important place to start looking for improvements to me.

[World Eater]

Apathy in the face of horror won't improve the world for the better.

When we know more facts in this case it may be possible to answer your question more precisely. If you want an example of what can come out of such things, the Norwegian shootings report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gj%C3%B8rv_Report_%282012%29)found that much more could have been done to respond faster to the incident and to monitor and investigate the perpetrator based on knowledge of him in relation to the car bombing.

In this case there were questions about how their security failed to stop the gunman, that seems quite an important place to start looking for improvements to me.

I do not live to make the world a better place. I live to live. I don't wake up every morning with optimism. I just can't. But I do know there are people out there who can, and I'll respect that. I've lost a lot energy and hope and I'll probably just make things worse.

I was just about to edit my post to ask about security as well.

And thanks for the link.

[TigerBoy]

I do not live to make the world a better place. I live to live. I don't wake up every morning with optimism. I just can't. But I do know there are people out there who can, and I'll respect that. I've lost a lot energy and hope and I'll probably just make things worse.

I totally understand where you're coming from there. I think a large number of people are feeling pretty knocked back by this. To be honest I'm feeling anger over the fact it could even happen right now, and so my view is that if we (society) are smart we'll make sure our leaders learn whatever lessons we can to reduce the chances of it happening again.

[The Flash]

Not to sound like an ass but...
This is due to Gun Control. All those places were "Gun Free Zones".
If you were to arm the law abiding citizens, the shooters wouldnt have had the chances to fire off as many shots as they did.

May The Students and Teachers of Sandy Hook R.I.P

[Foamy]

It's goddamn motherfuckers like this douchebag that make me want to cry inside. I'm glad he's dead. Dirtbags like that do not ever deserve to live. I live somewhat near that and it's breaking my heart to have to hear that 20 kids are dead every two seconds. My prayers are with te families of the victims.

[deadpie]

IZeEM_Pqqgw is2x7QTZ8AI

Less than 12 hours and it already becomes someone elses political coin. That's what it all turns into. You know what really makes me sick? Is that people like Huckabee and Fisher get a HARD ON for school shootings. They love it, because they can fucking use it for their sick bullshit screwed religious and political beliefs on television. If this isn't proof these people are heartless pieces of shit then I don't know what is. 20 kids die today and this guy gets to breathe fresh air tomorrow. Fuck this stupid planet.

[Empty Spaces]

What's wrong with this world. I don't even know what to say, it's tragic, unimaginable. I'm speechless.

[World Eater]

IZeEM_Pqqgw

Less than 12 hours and it already becomes someone elses political coin. That's what it all turns into. You know what really makes me sick? Is that people like Huckabee get a HARD ON for school shootings. They love it, because they can fucking use it for their bullshit cause and beliefs. If this isn't proof these people are heartless pieces of shit then I don't know what is. 20 kids die today and this guy gets to breathe fresh air tomorrow. Fuck this stupid planet.

What else is new?

[Foamy]

people that had to watch the news instead of ellen and justin "suckadick" bieber are tweeting about how the shooting is "stupid". this whole thing is sickening. they obviously are so full of themselves to not care about the children but about some singer that can't make good enough music to score a grammy nomination.

[The Flash]

people that had to watch the news instead of ellen and justin "suckadick" bieber are tweeting about how the shooting is "stupid". this whole thing is sickening. they obviously are so full of themselves to not care about the children but about some singer that can't make good enough music to score a grammy nomination.

Well he was almost assassinated. but those people are ignorant. once they get on facebook. and see their friends posting all the statuses, they'll be posting "RIP"

[dontfiguremeout]

May all the innocent kids who died today, run innocently in Heaven forever!

[CharlieHorse]

I had to turn off the news when the came on.
Breaks my heart.

Only the wicked and evil have enough sense to go into a place, where children, babies! are all together collectively and terrify them, shoot at them, kill them.
Those little kids had no business being scared for their lives, no right to be terrified like that. Their screaming and wailing, fucking gonna have nightmares about that.

It's good the monsters that terrified them are dead. They don't even get a chance at the insanity plea. Which you know, being good old America in the north no less, they would've been tapped on the head, re-evaluated for mental health and get off for not being in their right mind. Yet they've enough sense to grab a gun and rip a part that community. There's a special place in hell. Satan's creating a new one for them though.

I'm not defending the guy, but you seem to think that if a person IS actually insane with a brain disorder, that they deserve no chance of innocence. What if he was fighting against himself, doing everything he could to stop himself from doing this, does he deserve any help then?

[UnknownError]

Not to sound like an ass but...
This is due to Gun Control. All those places were "Gun Free Zones".
If you were to arm the law abiding citizens, the shooters wouldnt have had the chances to fire off as many shots as they did.

May The Students and Teachers of Sandy Hook R.I.P

if guns were illegal all over the US then the shooter wouldnt have had the chance to fire any shots at all.

[The Flash]

if guns were illegal all over the US then the shooter wouldnt have had the chance to fire any shots at all.

Not true. The shooter was under 21 years old. which means he couldnt have aqcuired a Legal firearm. the Firearm he used would have been an Illegal Firearms.
Weed is illegal right? but people still get a hold of that.
Same would go with guns.

[UnknownError]

Not true. The shooter was under 21 years old. which means he couldnt have aqcuired a Legal firearm. the Firearm he used would have been an Illegal Firearms.
Weed is illegal right? but people still get a hold of that.
Same would go with guns.

You can grow weed in your house. You cant sit and grow a gun under your bed.

[The Flash]

You can grow weed in your house. You cant sit and grow a gun under your bed.

Blackmarket.
and someone could go on a driving rampage and run over a bunch of people. so should be ban cars too? there are more automobile accidents, then there are gun related deaths.
And saying We should ban guns because stupid people kill others, is like saying we should ban cars because drunk people drive them and kill people.

[UnknownError]

blackmarket.
And someone could go on a driving rampage and run over a bunch of people. So should be ban cars too? There are more automobile accidents, then there are gun related deaths.
And saying we should ban guns because stupid people kill others, is like saying we should ban cars because drunk people drive them and kill people.

HREFDUIVHVFGSUHIUDHBiBUEFYGV ITS NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING

[The Flash]

HREFDUIVHVFGSUHIUDHBiBUEFYGV ITS NOT THE SAME FUCKING THING

lol, well, its the same concept. Stupid people are like drunk drivers. Stupid people kill people with guns. Drunk Drivers with cars.
And once guns are banned, people are going to be going on Knife Sprees! like in China, Today, 22 kids died. China is a Gun free place. they banned guns a while back.

[Professional Russian]

if guns were illegal all over the US then the shooter wouldnt have had the chance to fire any shots at all.

No bullshit. YOu cant ban guns. it would make it worse. there is illegal gun in the US you do know that right? well criminals are called criminals for a reason the dont listen to the law he would have still gottne that gun and still would have shot that school up. you cant ban guns if anything more people need to carry guns. i encourage everybody to sign this petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/gun-every-classroom-arm-every-teacher-and-principal-defend-themselves-and-their-students-during/BR1Wj8cc

If that petition was a law this would have never happend and could have been ended faster with a better outcome.

[UnknownError]

guns were made with one purpose - to kill.

cars were made with one purpose - to transport.

im sorry u are both making me so angry i cant okay goodbye.

[The Flash]

guns were made with one purpose - to kill.

cars were made with one purpose - to transport.

im sorry u are both making me so angry i cant okay goodbye.

Guns dont kill people. Inanimate objects dont kill.
Gun were made to Protect. Protect loved ones.
A gun wont shoot people. People will shoot people.

[Professional Russian]

guns were made with one purpose - to kill.

cars were made with one purpose - to transport.

im sorry u are both making me so angry i cant okay goodbye.

They were also made for self protection. Guns don't kill people, people Kill people

[deadpie]

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

[UnknownError]

Guns dont kill people. Inanimate objects dont kill.
Gun were made to Protect. Protect loved ones.
A gun wont shoot people. People will shoot people.

WITH A GUN. guns can protect................. BY KILLING. you protect one person by killing another. or you just go shoot up an elementary school.

[Professional Russian]

WITH A GUN. guns can protect................. BY KILLING. you protect one person by killing another. or you just go shoot up an elementary school.

Shooting up schools can be prevented. Arm the teachers.

[The Flash]

WITH A GUN. guns can protect................. BY KILLING. you protect one person by killing another. or you just go shoot up an elementary school.

But the shooter could have been dispatched earlier, if one of the Teachers were a CCW permit holder.

[speeddemon021]

RIP all the victims.
my heart goes out to all the families who lost a son or daughter today. (and a mother or a father as well)

[Professional Russian]

But the shooter could have been dispatched earlier, if one of the Teachers were a CCW permit holder.

Actually that's against the law. Even if you have a ccw you can't carry in a school

[The Flash]

Actually that's against the law. Even if you have a ccw you can't carry in a school

i was gunna put in that schools are gun free zones. but i didnt feel like typing alot. but now im done arguing with them.
And that law should be changed

[UnknownError]

Shooting up schools can be prevented. Arm the teachers.

But the shooter could have been dispatched earlier, if one of the Teachers were a CCW permit holder.

what if they stole the gun from the teacher. what if the teacher is against guns.

[deadpie]

Shooting up schools can be prevented. Arm the teachers.

YES PUT MORE GUNS INSIDE OF A SCHOOL GREAT IDEA THAT WILL TOTALLY FIX THE ISSUE

hahahhhhahhahahahahahahhahhahahaha

HA HA HAHA

stop

[UnknownError]

YES PUT MORE GUNS INSIDE OF A SCHOOL GREAT IDEA THAT WILL TOTALLY FIX THE ISSUE

hahahhhhahhahahahahahahhahhahahaha

HA HA HAHA

stop

Im so angry with them??????

[Professional Russian]

what if they stole the gun from the teacher. what if the teacher is against guns.

One does not steal a gun from someone's hip. And another teacher won't be a pussy and step up and do the job.

[deadpie]

One does not steal a gun from someone's hip. And another teacher won't be a pussy and step up and do the job.

WHAT

Teachers don't need to know how to use a gun to learn how to teach a class. Then every time a student looks suspicious they think "do i need to kill this guy". Do you know how many teachers would end up killing unarmed students then? Also, I've gotta say students are going to be stronger than old women with guns. Easy to grab a gun from an old woman, blast her away and blast everyone away.

[UnknownError]

One does not steal a gun from someone's hip. And another teacher won't be a pussy and step up and do the job.

I doubt they would carry it 24/7 if they did have guns. They would leave them in their bags or locked in a safe. Also what if... wait for it... the TEACHER went on a rampage and killed the entire class before another teacher got in to stop them. Answer that one.

[The Flash]

YES PUT MORE GUNS INSIDE OF A SCHOOL GREAT IDEA THAT WILL TOTALLY FIX THE ISSUE

hahahhhhahhahahahahahahhahhahahaha

HA HA HAHA

stop

Would you rather have the police take 10 minutes to get there, or would you want the shooter to be stopped, before they even start?

[Professional Russian]

WHAT

Teachers don't need to know how to use a gun to learn how to teach a class. Then every time a student looks suspicious they think "do i need to kill this guy". Do you know how many teachers would end up killing unarmed students then? Also, I've gotta say students are going to be stronger than old women with guns. Easy to grab a gun from an old woman, blast her away and blast everyone away.

No you have ROE in place to prevent shooting like that. Unless they pose a legitimate threat you can not engage. Second not all teachers are old. Most of the teachers at my school are 30-50

[UnknownError]

Would you rather have the police take 10 minutes to get there, or would you want the shooter to be stopped, before they even start?

OR WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE NO GUNS AT ALL I SWEAR 2 GOD.

ok this blackmarket theory of yours, how many 15 year olds know where to go to secretly buy guns, that the police dont know of. Probably around 0.4% of them

[Professional Russian]

I doubt they would carry it 24/7 if they did have guns. They would leave them in their bags or locked in a safe. Also what if... wait for it... the TEACHER went on a rampage and killed the entire class before another teacher got in to stop them. Answer that one.

It would be known the teacher was insane and they'd be fired before hand at least that's how my school works

[deadpie]

No you have ROE in place to prevent shooting like that. Unless they pose a legitimate threat you can not engage.

How many times has the law prevent people from killing other people? You really think all teachers aren't going to make mistakes? You know how many times a teacher probably would have put a bullet in my face by now? Also, most high school students seem to be much stronger than their teachers.

[The Flash]

OR WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE NO GUNS AT ALL I SWEAR 2 GOD.

ok this blackmarket theory of yours, how many 15 year olds know where to go to secretly buy guns, that the police dont know of. Probably around 0.4% of them

Actually, even in Canada this happens. My teacher told me when he was in highschool (14-18) a friend asked him if he wanted protection. And the friend showed him a bunch of firearms.

[DerBear]

When

When

When will america learn that guns do nothing more than cause...death... devastation....loss...and grief.

There have been so many mass killings. How many more do we need before they'll learn.

[UnknownError]

It would be known the teacher was insane and they'd be fired before hand at least that's how my school works

one day a pupil pushes a teacher that tiny bit too far, she/he just snaps and pulls out their gun and shoots them in the face oops what a terrible accident maybe if the teachers didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened ://///

[Professional Russian]

one day a pupil pushes a teacher that tiny bit too far, she/he just snaps and pulls out their gun and shoots them in the face oops what a terrible accident maybe if the teachers didnt have guns that wouldnt have happened ://///

Has that happened before? No. Your post is invalid

[UnknownError]

Has that happened before? No. Your post is invalid

YOUR FUYDFCKJDS98HGUY8OGTRNHUOGTRHGNYTNRWYBNYB3 its a scenario just like the ones youve been giving us omfg.

[The Flash]

Guns are bad right? then why are "important" people protected by people with guns? hmm? Why are Peace officers allowed firearms if theyre bad? if they were to be made illegal, that would be disarming Law Enforcement Officers. Because Officers are supposed to follow the law, and enforce it.

[Professional Russian]

When

When

When will america learn that guns do nothing more than cause...death... devastation....loss...and grief.

There have been so many mass killings. How many more do we need before they'll learn.

No derri bad guys will always get guns. Banning guns will disarm the law abiding citizen and leave them with no protection.

[Sugaree]

Has that happened before? No. Your post is invalid

It could though. You're not considering the "what ifs" and are only focusing on what's already happened.

[Professional Russian]

YOUR FUYDFCKJDS98HGUY8OGTRNHUOGTRHGNYTNRWYBNYB3 its a scenario just like the ones youve been giving us omfg.

Except if you look what I've said you'd see I took them real fro real events and added a gun to the hands of a teacher that could have stopped it

[The Flash]

YOUR FUYDFCKJDS98HGUY8OGTRNHUOGTRHGNYTNRWYBNYB3 its a scenario just like the ones youve been giving us omfg.

Heres a Real story, happened infront of a school.
An Angry parent pulled a knife on another parent, but luckily there was a person who carried a firearm in the area, and the guy stopped the parent with a knife, and held him there till the police came.

[Professional Russian]

It could though. You're not considering the "what ifs" and are only focusing on what's already happened.

If is the biggest word in the dictionary

[deadpie]

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

If your first response to seeing this article was "omg obama gonna take my guns gotta talk about gun rights and shit now" you are a heartless piece of fucking garbage

look what the thread has now become

fuck this is so fucking stupid

i'm leaving VT for a few days and going to /a/, this forum can be so fucking derp sometimes

[UnknownError]

Heres a Real story, happened infront of a school.
An Angry parent pulled a knife on another parent, but luckily there was a person who carried a firearm in the area, and the guy stopped the parent with a knife, and held him there till the police came.

you dont need a gun to stop someone with a knife, s/he could have gone up from behind, knocked him/her on the ground and held them down. that is if they really wanted to.

[The Flash]

look what the thread has now become

fuck this is so fucking stupid

i'm leaving VT for a few days and going to /a/, this forum can be so fucking derp sometimes

Wanting to Ban guns is Derp... All the time.

[deadpie]

Wanting to Ban guns is Derp... All the time.

I NEVER SAID BAN GUNS FOR EVERYONE


All I said was that giving teachers guns was a dumb fucking idea

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
FUCKIGN RAGE RAGE RAGE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

FUCK FUCK FUCK

[The Flash]

you dont need a gun to stop someone with a knife, s/he could have gone up from behind, knocked him/her on the ground and held them down. that is if they really wanted to.

and if i didnt want to knock him her to the ground cuz i didnt want to get cut? then there would be a kid, without a mother, and peopel like you, wanting to ban knives.

[UnknownError]

and if i didnt want to knock him her to the ground cuz i didnt want to get cut? then there would be a kid, without a mother, and peopel like you, wanting to ban knives.

you cant ban fucking knives that would be idiotic. and i doubt the person would have killed the other, it was most likely a threat if anything.

[The Flash]

I NEVER SAID BAN GUNS FOR EVERYONE


All I said was that giving teachers guns was a dumb fucking idea

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
FUCKIGN RAGE RAGE RAGE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

FUCK FUCK FUCK

o okay, but they would obviously do a psych evaluation first. make sure they arent Psychoo

[The Flash]

you cant ban fucking knives that would be idiotic. and i doubt the person would have killed the other, it was most likely a threat if anything.

My point proven. you just said everything i was trying to say, but instead of Firearm, you said Knife.

[UnknownError]

o okay, but they would obviously do a psych evaluation first. make sure they arent Psychoo

you're making me go psycho.

[The Flash]

you cant ban fucking knives that would be idiotic. and i doubt the person would have killed the other, it was most likely a threat if anything.

but it could have escalated to the point, where the person was pumped on adrenaline, Didnt think, and jabbed/slashed.

[UnknownError]

My point proven. you just said everything i was trying to say, but instead of Firearm, you said Knife.

knives #1 use is for food. guns #1 use is for killing.

[The Flash]

knives #1 use is for food. guns #1 use is for killing.

Guns are used for Hunting.

[Professional Russian]

you cant ban fucking knives that would be idiotic. and i doubt the person would have killed the other, it was most likely a threat if anything.

Banning guns is idiotic

[UnknownError]

Guns are used for Hunting.

HUNTIGN IS ALSO KILLING IT IS KILLING OF ANIMALS ITS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT IT IS STILL KILLING. omrg

Banning guns is idiotic

banning guns would be the smartest thing that the US could do for itself.

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[The Flash]

HUNTIGN IS ALSO KILLING IT IS KILLING OF ANIMALS ITS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT IT IS STILL KILLING. omrg

Are you Vegan? how do u think we get our food... we kill the animal. Meat just doesnt plop on you plate.

banning guns would be the smartest thing that the US could do for itself.

Actually, it would be paying off their Debt.

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[Professional Russian]

banning guns would be the smartest thing that the US could do for itself.

Oh holy fuck. You can't do that. THE BAD GUYS WILL ALWAYS FUCKING GET GUNS is it that hard for you too understand unarming the law abiding citizen is the worst thing for the US

[UnknownError]

Are you Vegan? how do u think we get our food... we kill the animal. Meat just doesnt plop on you plate.

no, but there is a difference between an animal farm and hunting in the forest.

Actually, it would be paying off their Debt.

less guns, less crime, less money spent, more money saved.

[Sugaree]

If is the biggest word in the dictionary

You still shouldn't exclude the possibility.

[The Flash]

no, but there is a difference between an animal farm and hunting in the forest.



less guns, less crime, less money spent, more money saved.

the difference is, Hunting is more Humane. Hunters dont cram animals into small spaces, then slaughter them. Hunters shoot, quick kill, then process the meat.

[Jess]

Some sick person you have to be, to go to a school (after killing your mom), an elementary school at that, and kill children. Good thing he's freaking dead. My thoughts are with the families.

[Sugaree]

HUNTIGN IS ALSO KILLING IT IS KILLING OF ANIMALS ITS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT IT IS STILL KILLING. omrg

Ok let's get hypothetical here. If you had a gun with a bullet (just one bullet) and you were stuck in the wilderness with no food for almost a week. You have basic supplies to cook with flint and some dry wood, but no meat. You see a deer. You have the ability to kill it for its meat. But you don't kill it because it's an animal and killing an animal is apparently wrong? I don't support hunting for sport; that's just fucked up. But hunting for food isn't a bad thing.

[UnknownError]

Ok let's get hypothetical here. If you had a gun with a bullet (just one bullet) and you were stuck in the wilderness with no food for almost a week. You have basic supplies to cook with flint and some dry wood, but no meat. You see a deer. You have the ability to kill it for its meat. But you don't kill it because it's an animal and killing an animal is apparently wrong? I don't support hunting for sport; that's just fucked up. But hunting for food isn't a bad thing.

In that situation then yes, but that isnt the case for these people. But anyway this thread was done so yeah.

[Sugaree]

In that situation then yes, but that isnt the case for these people. But anyway this thread was done so yeah.

Oh no no no, it's not done because you say it is.

[Professional Russian]

In that situation then yes, but that isnt the case for these people. But anyway this thread was done so yeah.

I hunt every year and everyone of them go to my freezer for food. Do you have a problem with that too?

[ackmedsgirl666]

R.I.P to all those parents who lost their loved children who will no longer see them grow up and grow old... and to all those children who are now without parents

such a sad day.. what is this world coming to.. even president obama shed a tear
it just goes to show how much power 1 person with a gun can do and how much devastation can be caused... personally i am glad that the shooter is dead.... hes sick and obviously wasnt thinking upon his actions
what has this world come to....

gun violence needs to somehow be ended in the world
but no matter how hard authorities try they still havent been able to put a stop to gun smuggling in the world...

"dear god, watch over those poor children who lost their loved ones... and for the parents who lost their little children. may u grant them peace and keep them safe... and help them heal..

i am sorry if prayer offends anyone in this forum but it something i do when their are times and peoples in needs. no disrespect.
but may those families be remembered

[nino51300]

Ive been inside that school, a family friend went there as a kid. Scary thought

RIP to all who died. Sad and tragic story..

[Agteen]

This is so sad. I got to school very close to Sandy Hook so we went into a lock down. I feel terrible for the parents!!! It is SO close to Christmas, and now they have to keep this memory forever, that their child was taken from them days before Christmas. I feel bad for the innocent children caught between family problems. They will never have another Christmas. However, they are with God now, and he will protect them. My heart goes out to all of the victims and families. This is truly a sad day.

[PinkFloyd]

I heard about this and just forced it out of my mind. I couldn't bare to even think about it. I was just on my way back from dinner and saw all the lowered American flags... I cried like a baby. :(

[Danny_boi 16]

This is all so depressing. People are just sick in the head. And i think they need help, no mater if they want it or not. But please remember everyone has the right to bare arms; but this isn't baring arms this was a full on massacre! People like that should be able to get guns; however, he did steal them. Let those innocent people rest in perfect peace.

[FreeFall]

I'm not defending the guy, but you seem to think that if a person IS actually insane with a brain disorder, that they deserve no chance of innocence. What if he was fighting against himself, doing everything he could to stop himself from doing this, does he deserve any help then?
Huh! Wow. I don't appreciate your assumption. Kinda ticks me off.

Children are my hot button. You do not harm the babies and children if you want any compassion or rationality from me.

I do not give a fuck about him. I do not care what he was dealing with. I do not give a damn how much or how little help he had. I do not care what demons he was fighting before he became one.
In my eyes he took down little angels on his way to hell.

I do not enjoy having the image of the video of the little children screaming and crying and clinging to their parents. I do not enjoy parents being terrified of sending their children out of the house anymore. I do not enjoy the pain on the faces of parents who lost children way before their time, in a place where they were meant to be safe. Where a few hours ago the kid was excited to see their friends and come home to tell Mommy and Daddy all about their day. Fuck. Not the children, never the children. Never. Not this chaos and pain he caused.

My double standard is apparent.
It almost sickens me how clear it is and how the reaction is becoming "oh, another shooting, what's for dinner?"
But I can say those who need help, should get help. But if they touch the children, scare the children and intentionally harm the children, I won't have it. I want it so they can never have a chance to hurt children again. No chance of relapse, no chance of them being "stable" enough to decide to hurt the children. I want death or for life, whichever will keep them away.

[LouBerry]

I'm praying for all the families, friends, teachers, and communities that were torn apart this morning. That being said, I also feel an overwhelming sense of sadness for the shooter. I always wonder when something like this happens, What drove him to this? What pain was that man carrying around that made him snap like that. It's sad. terribly sad.

[Inventor2]

WITH A GUN. guns can protect................. BY KILLING. you protect one person by killing another. or you just go shoot up an elementary school.

I hate to brake it to you, but guns arnt illegal. There will ALWAYS be guns, there will ALWAYS be crime. The more armed citizens we have, the safer we will be. No shooter would make five seconds. It would have taken one teacher in that school that was carrying a firearm to save 27 peoples lives. ONE PERSON. And so you know what, you are wrong, gun control will make it worse and more people will die because of ignorent people that dont know what they are causing. Cun control in exactly what we dont need right now, now we need to have people that can defend and protect them selfes. So yeh maybe guns were made to kill people. But i can tell you what, i would rather that killer dead then 20 innocent children and 7 adults dead. Now because of stupid laws that say people cant protect themselfs, there are failys that have lost lovedones and there will be no christmas this year or years coming for them. If you are to ignorent to see that then you have knowone to blame but yourself for this mess. You are part of the reason criminals can harm people. Because thy know that they cant defend themselfes. if you think gun control is the answer, then you are dead wrong. And making the problem worse.

[Inventor2]

In that situation then yes, but that isnt the case for these people. But anyway this thread was done so yeah.

Remember this so far is only bean THREE people. Yes they were bad incodents but 150,000,000 people in the U.S own firearms. Why ruin it for them? Norway has the most gun control and they had a massacure of 77 people. Gun control dosnt work. It makes it worse

[World Eater]

To the douche that gave me neg rep: I was referring on how to deal with gunmen. I am very sorry that those kids died and their going to miss out on many things. Think next time before you assume that I don't care, because I do.

[Emerald Dream]

Over the course of the day this thread has gone from a news report of an individual with still unknown "issues" and the tragedy of a dead mother, 20 or so elementary school students, and other slain adults....and turned into a lot of peoples' personal platform on politics and gun control issues.

I think the real issue and point of this story is the crazed actions of the shooter and the people who are dead because of it. I came here to this thread to read about facts on this story, and other people's understandable reactions. Most are horrified, and a few are rather apathetic. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But for crying out loud, if you want to banter on and on about gun control issues (both pro and con) then start a thread about it in the Ramblings forum. Arguing about it on this thread seems rather callous and insensitive to the victims today.

[lukey1994]

my condolences to all the victims' families.

[World Eater]

I totally understand where you're coming from there. I think a large number of people are feeling pretty knocked back by this. To be honest I'm feeling anger over the fact it could even happen right now, and so my view is that if we (society) are smart we'll make sure our leaders learn whatever lessons we can to reduce the chances of it happening again.

Thank you for understanding. I just don't much hope around me anymore. Although somewhere in my heart I hope everyone will have good leaders to protect them But I fear in my mind that there will always be those that harm others regardless of who they are.

Man is inherently evil.

[Drew5]

Over the course of the day this thread has gone from a news report of an individual with still unknown "issues" and the tragedy of a dead mother, 20 or so elementary school students, and other slain adults....and turned into a lot of peoples' personal platform on politics and gun control issues.

I think the real issue and point of this story is the crazed actions of the shooter and the people who are dead because of it. I came here to this thread to read about facts on this story, and other people's understandable reactions. Most are horrified, and a few are rather apathetic. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But for crying out loud, if you want to banter on and on about gun control issues (both pro and con) then start a thread about it in the Ramblings forum. Arguing about it on this thread seems rather callous and insensitive to the victims today.

There is one good thing. The killer won't be doing it again. Dude kills his mom, then drives a bit, clearly has some thinking time while driving and thinks shooting up a elementary school is a good idea.

How do you get to that thinking?
Also, the guns were his moms. That's one well armed mom.

[Aajj333]

GOD BLESS THE VICTIMS OF THE SCHOOL MASSACRE

with the recent shooting where 30 kids were murdered and 6 teachers were murdered, should we revise gun ownership laws?

[ProudConservative]

Sanity/mental background checks plus criminal record checks. You've also got to remember, theses guns belonged to the mother.

[FreeFall]

Background checks for everyone in the family/lives in the home. The gun owner must have a cabinet with a lock built in that requires a code provided for them, not one they can make up. If the code is lost, the one who owns the gun can be the only one to go to the dealership in person with identification forms.

Honestly, nothing is fool proof. Get rid of guns. Someone will create another boom stick and sell them on the black market. Make the laws harsher, just takes more effort to break them. Get a tighter hold on ownership, we get to enjoy the many petitions from the gun toting folk. The only thing I think we personally need to focus on is how to protect yourself from guns. Granted, that's really freaking hard to do, and if everyone had a gun to protect themselves from guns, it'd turn into an awful western film. We definitely need tighter security in school. My old elementary school now has electronically and magnetically locked doors, for if the power fails or whatever. Those doors are shut and can only be opened by the principal. No one else. You have to press an intercom, wait to be paged to him and he'll come and personally open the door if you're cleared to be there. Even if you're the parent though, and he thinks you're acting funny, he'll turn you away. He turned away some mom who just had NyQuil and was loopy. Granted, that isn't fail proof either, but it would at least reduce the chance of an attack.

Those poor children, those poor poor things.

[Taryn98]

First I'll say that what happened was extremely terrible.

Trying to control guns will do nothing. Drugs are illegal, how difficult is it for anyone to get and use drugs. I live in the middle of Wisconsin, not near a major city at all, but I could get any drug within an hour. Control guns and it will be the same thing. Here in Wisconsin, almost every family has guns, some for hunting, some for sport, but kids around here are taught to fear and respect them.

People forget that there are something like 100 million gun owners in America, why aren't there 100 million school shootings if guns were the problem? More people are killed in car accidents in the US each year than by guns, why don't people talk about regulating or banning cars?

Look where a lot of these tragedies take place (schools, the mall, the movies), all places where you're less likely to encounter someone who will shoot back and try to stop you.

Just this week 22 people were stabbed in China in a school. They don't allow guns, so what happened, people got stabbed in stead.

The problem is the people. There are 311 million people in the US. That's a lot of people. More people will win the lottery this year than will participate in mass murder with a gun.

As long as there are people, there will be crazy/angry people that will hurt others. And they will use whatever is available to do it.

[Human]

First I'll say that what happened was extremely terrible.

Trying to control guns will do nothing. Drugs are illegal, how difficult is it for anyone to get and use drugs. I live in the middle of Wisconsin, not near a major city at all, but I could get any drug within an hour. Control guns and it will be the same thing. Here in Wisconsin, almost every family has guns, some for hunting, some for sport, but kids around here are taught to fear and respect them.

People forget that there are something like 100 million gun owners in America, why aren't there 100 million school shootings if guns were the problem? More people are killed in car accidents in the US each year than by guns, why don't people talk about regulating or banning cars?

Look where a lot of these tragedies take place (schools, the mall, the movies), all places where you're less likely to encounter someone who will shoot back and try to stop you.

Just this week 22 people were stabbed in China in a school. They don't allow guns, so what happened, people got stabbed in stead.

The problem is the people. There are 311 million people in the US. That's a lot of people. More people will win the lottery this year than will participate in mass murder with a gun.

As long as there are people, there will be crazy/angry people that will hurt others. And they will use whatever is available to do it.
Well in England there are gun control laws, and I've never seen a gun in my life not on TV

[Taryn98]

Well in England there are gun control laws, and I've never seen a gun in my life not on TV

That's fine. I don't live there so I can't speak for what things are like there. England can do whatever it wants for the people there. I can only say what I think is right for my country. I accept that other countries can do things differently.

[Gigablue]

Well in England there are gun control laws, and I've never seen a gun in my life not on TV

Same with Canada. I've only ever seen a gun on TV because so few people have then.

I don't see why people in the US want guns so much. Normal citizens don't need them. The only people who need them are hunters, police officers and soldiers.

By making it harder for ordinary people to get guns, you also make it harder for criminals to get them. Here in Canada, we have much tighter gun control laws, and we have far less gun crime. There is some, but it's nothing like the US.

I am completely baffled by the people who think more guns make people safer. It just doesn't make sense. If you want to get rid of gun crime, get rid of guns.

[Green Arrow]

The American gun laws need to change, anyone and their grandma can own a weapon that could kill someone. In my opinion the only people that should have guns are those who need them, the army and armed police. And of course people who compete in shooting competitions.

Background checks for everyone in the family/lives in the home. The gun owner must have a cabinet with a lock built in that requires a code provided for them, not one they can make up. If the code is lost, the one who owns the gun can be the only one to go to the dealership in person with identification forms.

As if the US government doesn't have enough things to do, nevermind doing background checks into people to see if they can own a AK-47.

Well in England there are gun control laws, and I've never seen a gun in my life not on TV

Same as this.

[Professional Russian]

Not another one of these. ok here we go.

I dont want the England and canada banned guns and dont have any problems bullshit. The US is different. We Guns to protect us and get us food....atleast i do. Banning guns from the US will make it worse because you would be taking guns from the law abiding citizens that use them to protect them selves. now how is that logical someone please explain? The Bad guys will always get guns too. there is illegal gun trade. making guns illegal will be like drugs. if someone wants they will go and get it. Banning would also cause a civil war in this country and trust me the goverment wont win. Ultimately its illogic, fucking stupid, and not even possible to ban guns from the US

[Gigablue]

Not another one of these. ok here we go.

I dont want the England and canada banned guns and dont have any problems bullshit. The US is different. We Guns to protect us and get us food....atleast i do. Banning guns from the US will make it worse because you would be taking guns from the law abiding citizens that use them to protect them selves. now how is that logical someone please explain? The Bad guys will always get guns too. there is illegal gun trade. making guns illegal will be like drugs. if someone wants they will go and get it. Banning would also cause a civil war in this country and trust me the goverment wont win. Ultimately its illogic, fucking stupid, and not even possible to ban guns from the US

We don't need guns to protect ourselves, why do you in the US need them?

Tighter gun laws reduce the number of guns out there, making it harder for criminals to get them. They still can, but it's much harder. Decreasing the number of guns decreases gun crime. It's that simple.

[Professional Russian]

We don't need guns to protect ourselves, why do you in the US need them?

Tighter gun laws reduce the number of guns out there, making it harder for criminals to get them. They still can, but it's much harder. Decreasing the number of guns decreases gun crime. It's that simple.

We Need them to protect our selves from the people that have slipped through the cracks and are insane that have gotten guns. If guns were banned and someone breaks in my house and has a gun that they got illegally how am i supposed to protect my self? i aint useing a knife i want to shoot that fucker. Canada and England arguments are invalid to the US gun laws. And reduceing guns wont reduce crime rates it will make them sky rocket. now someone answer me this. have any of you ever noticed that mass shootings happen in gun free zones? Schools: Gun Free. Colorado Theatre: Gun Free Zone. Will someone please use a brain and thin for once

[ProudConservative]

The murder rate in England is actually up since the gun control laws. Gun control doesn't work. The black market will boom if they become illegal. Making it easier to get guns. Hell, I could go I into Baltimore right now and get myself a gun if I truly wanted to get one that way. Yes, policies for getting them needs to be a bit tighter. just a background check on the person buying them. Just the person.

[FreeFall]

As if the US government doesn't have enough things to do, nevermind doing background checks into people to see if they can own a AK-47.
Yes, they're busy, that's why they have a separate section specifically made to do it. The NICS, is the section that focuses on gun control and background check. So, my government's pretty capable of what your sarcasm points at.

You can say what you please. That "Normal" citizens deserve no protection, despite how our police force and court systems are flawed that victims are horribly victim shamed and traumatized three times over. That in your country you never see a gun and all is rainbows and sparkles and everyone's in love with each other. That's fine, stay there then because that's not how America will ever be no matte what happens. Once we've had something, we want it, we want to keep it. And we will find a way. Again, nothing is fool proof. Take the guns away, more claims of deranged cops, more cases of people stealing their cop parent's guns. More people creating guns, some potentially more powerful. Make the checks harder, people get lazy and turn to the black market or actually go through the effort of either breaking the law.

I'm not arguing everyone sleep with a gun. I'm more disappointed that our guns have been so abused and misused, that those who really do need them for self protection are pushed around. I would love to see the crime rates involving guns go down. I'd love that people didn't go around shooting each other with no reason except to kill them, steal or scare a community. Until someone can figure out how to do this and seal all loopholes and prevent creation of others, we'll flounder around grasping for the perfect solution.

[Lights]

How many more shootings is it going to take before America finally take action on their gun control? In recent times, first it was the Batman shooting in Aurora, then it was the temple shooting in Wisconsin, and now it's the devastating, heartbreaking shooting in Connecticut.

This was a terrible incident and it is simply horrendous to think about the trauma that went on and has meant that not only have so many innocent lives been taken, including 20 children's, but families are going to be grieving for the rest of their lives. They're going to find it hard to ever trust again. If a gunman can kill so many in an infant school, then where else could they strike? I think the events have made us all feel quite sick.

My thoughts are truly with the grieving families who must be experiencing the worst feelings of their entire lives. To all those who were cruelly taken, I sincerely hope that you all rest in peace.

[Professional Russian]

How many more shootings is it going to take before America finally take action on their gun control? In recent times, first it was the Batman shooting in Aurora, then it was the temple shooting in Wisconsin, and now it's the devastating, heartbreaking shooting in Connecticut.

This was a terrible incident and it is simply horrendous to think about the trauma that went on and has meant that not only have so many innocent lives been taken, including 20 children's, but families are going to be grieving for the rest of their lives. They're going to find it hard to ever trust again. If a gunman can kill so many in an infant school, then where else could they strike? I think the events have made us all feel quite sick.

My thoughts are truly with the grieving families who must be experiencing the worst feelings of their entire lives. To all those who were cruelly taken, I sincerely hope that you all rest in peace.

Ok Before i loose my mind. we need guns to protect ourselves from things like this. if you take away guns this will still hapen except the law abiding citizen will not have a way to defend themsleves. you have to think things through before screaming gun control.

[Lights]

Ok Before i loose my mind. we need guns to protect ourselves from things like this. if you take away guns this will still hapen except the law abiding citizen will not have a way to defend themsleves. you have to think things through before screaming gun control.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The whole concept of teachers having guns in schools is beyond contemplation. Yes, it is inevitable that violence of this kind will happen despite any law, but that's out of anyone's control. Would you feel comfortable in a classroom with a teacher who was armed with a gun? Would you not feel extremely scared if they were starting to lose their patience or get angry? You can't solve gun problems with more guns. At least if guns are criminalised, they will be much harder to get a hold of.

Guns are far too accessible to the average American.

[Professional Russian]

Two wrongs don't make a right. The whole concept of teachers having guns in schools is beyond contemplation. Yes, it is inevitable that violence of this kind will happen despite any law, but that's out of anyone's control. Would you feel comfortable in a classroom with a teacher who was armed with a gun? Would you not feel extremely scared if they were starting to lose their patience or get angry? You can't solve gun problems with more guns. At least if guns are criminalised, they will be much harder to get a hold of.

Guns are far too accessible to the average American.

Actually yes i would feel comfortable with my teachers having guns. not hey arent too accesable. and you said your self his will always happen. you just made a contradiction. so there for as you said if we ban gins this will still happen. so basically theres no point in banning them also let me quote another user: Yes, they're busy, that's why they have a separate section specifically made to do it. The NICS, is the section that focuses on gun control and background check. So, my government's pretty capable of what your sarcasm points at.

You can say what you please. That "Normal" citizens deserve no protection, despite how our police force and court systems are flawed that victims are horribly victim shamed and traumatized three times over. That in your country you never see a gun and all is rainbows and sparkles and everyone's in love with each other. That's fine, stay there then because that's not how America will ever be no matte what happens. Once we've had something, we want it, we want to keep it. And we will find a way. Again, nothing is fool proof. Take the guns away, more claims of deranged cops, more cases of people stealing their cop parent's guns. More people creating guns, some potentially more powerful. Make the checks harder, people get lazy and turn to the black market or actually go through the effort of either breaking the law.

I'm not arguing everyone sleep with a gun. I'm more disappointed that our guns have been so abused and misused, that those who really do need them for self protection are pushed around. I would love to see the crime rates involving guns go down. I'd love that people didn't go around shooting each other with no reason except to kill them, steal or scare a community. Until someone can figure out how to do this and seal all loopholes and prevent creation of others, we'll flounder around grasping for the perfect solution.

[Lights]

Actually yes i would feel comfortable with my teachers having guns. not hey arent too accesable. and you said your self his will always happen. you just made a contradiction. so there for as you said if we ban gins this will still happen. so basically theres no point in banning them also let me quote another user:

Look at a country like the UK where possessing firearms is illegal for most people and guns are very tightly controlled. Then look at America.

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.22 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants compared to the United States' 3.0.

When I said these things will still happen, I meant it to a very small degree. You may view it as a contradiction on my part, but I only feel that I'm being realistic. The only reason it would be able to happen is because of the black market. There's always people breaking laws - we are never going to be able to police every little thing, which sadly means events like this occur. The more guns are controlled, the less likely these things are to happen. I reiterate the point that two wrongs don't make a right. By your logic everyone should have guns. Don't you realise how easy it is to misuse firearms and cause fatalities? You cannot expect to prevent gun abuse by encouraging more people to own guns. If anything that will just increase gun abuse.

[Professional Russian]

Look at a country like the UK where possessing firearms is illegal for most people and guns are very tightly controlled. Then look at America.

DO i really have to explain the difference between the US and the UK again?



When I said these things will still happen, I meant it to a very small degree. You may view it as a contradiction on my part, but I only feel that I'm being realistic. The only reason it would be able to happen is because of the black market. There's always people breaking laws - we are never going to be able to police every little thing, which sadly means events like this occur. The more guns are controlled, the less likely these things are to happen. I reiterate the point that two wrongs don't make a right. By your logic everyone should have guns. Don't you realise how easy it is to misuse firearms and cause fatalities? You cannot expect to prevent gun abuse by encouraging more people to own guns. If anything that will just increase gun abuse.

No The Law abiding citizens that have guns and carry guns will make it better. if a criminal knows htat alot of people carry guns on them they will be less likely to commit that crime because they know the will get shot and killed. unless its a suicide mission.

[Cicero]

I think there must be more detailed back ground checks. It'd be unconstitutional to take away that right away. Bit there can be preventative measures. At my school it seemed like all the teachers were grieving for those students, There was definitely a silence in my school I haven't seen before.

[Lights]

DO i really have to explain the difference between the US and the UK again?

No The Law abiding citizens that have guns and carry guns will make it better. if a criminal knows htat alot of people carry guns on them they will be less likely to commit that crime because they know the will get shot and killed. unless its a suicide mission.

I guess you do.

How do you separate law abiding from non law abiding citizens when many criminals haven't even committed their crimes yet?
If your logic there was true then crime rates would be much lower than they are right now in the US. The deterrence argument simply isn't supported by the US crime rates.

[Professional Russian]

I guess you do.

How do you separate law abiding from non law abiding citizens when many criminals haven't even committed their crimes yet?
If your logic there was true then crime rates would be much lower than they are right now in the US. The deterrence argument simply isn't supported by the US crime rates.

Wells start with differences. since you liberals have no brains. The US is alot more different than the UK. there is shittons of illegal gun trade in The US. The UK has about none. also the law abiding citizens would be the ones that can pass a psych exam and a training course.

[Gigablue]

We Need them to protect our selves from the people that have slipped through the cracks and are insane that have gotten guns. If guns were banned and someone breaks in my house and has a gun that they got illegally how am i supposed to protect my self? i aint useing a knife i want to shoot that fucker. Canada and England arguments are invalid to the US gun laws. And reduceing guns wont reduce crime rates it will make them sky rocket. now someone answer me this. have any of you ever noticed that mass shootings happen in gun free zones? Schools: Gun Free. Colorado Theatre: Gun Free Zone. Will someone please use a brain and thin for once

If guns were banned, the number of guns would go down, and fewer criminals would have access to guns, thus reducing gun crime. It might go up temporarily, but will go down eventually.

Having guns in society leads to gun crime. That is a fact. Fewer guns means less gun crime. The way to fight gun crime is to reduce the total number of guns, not be increasing it.

[Professional Russian]

If guns were banned, the number of guns would go down, and fewer criminals would have access to guns, thus reducing gun crime. It might go up temporarily, but will go down eventually.

Having guns in society leads to gun crime. That is a fact. Fewer guns means less gun crime. The way to fight gun crime is to reduce the total number of guns, not be increasing it.

no it doesnt. why cant people understand bad guys will always get guns? you probably live in world with no guns which has never had guns correct? the US has always had guns and we arent willing to give them up. If you were to take away guns the rate would go up becasue BAD GUYS WILL ALWAYS GET GUNS and people wont have a way to defend themselves

[ImCoolBeans]

This has become a debate.
The VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: Ramblings of the Wise

DO i really have to explain the difference between the US and the UK again?

Don't take the time to explain it again because your reasoning is absurd. Every time anybody mentions gun laws you get all fired up and charge into the debate with that reasoning and it drives everybody mad to the point where they grind their teeth because you won't listen to anybody's point of view besides your own -- not a good way to try and win a debate.

The US and UK are comparable and it's probably the best example to be used. The UK has stricter gun laws and guess what? They don't have multiple high profile shootings every week in the news! I understand that you have a thing for guns; but mass shootings are not rare in the United states. Since 1982 there have been 61 mass shootings and in 50 of those shootings the gunmen have purchased their guns legally. They were purchased following every rule in the book and look at the result. I would call that a flawed system and I think that the general consensus is in agreement right now.

In the UK where they have stricter gun control they don't have this problem -- in fact it isn't a problem -- at least nothing like ours is. If we modeled our gun laws to be more like theirs I would venture to say that we would not be hearing about stories like this as often as we are.

No The Law abiding citizens that have guns and carry guns will make it better. if a criminal knows htat alot of people carry guns on them they will be less likely to commit that crime because they know the will get shot and killed. unless its a suicide mission.

No, the law abiding citizens who carry guns on their person will NOT make it better. They will NOT be the ones to fix the problem and they will NOT be encouraged to do so under any circumstance. Vigilante justice is a terrible idea and throws any order that has been established out of the window. When vigilante's take matters into their own hands they endanger themselves and the lives of innocent bystanders. A poorly trained vigilante cannot do the job that professionals do and will only lead to a more dangerous situation for everybody.

I don't think you really understand the severity of the situation because all you seem to care about are your guns and them not being taken away. I'm sorry but that really doesn't and shouldn't matter when it comes down to it. If innocent lives are being taken on a weekly basis now because our gun laws aren't protecting us like they should be then a change needs to happen and I hope it does.

I've merged these two threads seeing as they have the same topic.

[Professional Russian]

This has become a debate.
The VT Daily Chronicle :arrow: Ramblings of the Wise



Don't take the time to explain it again because your reasoning is absurd. Every time anybody mentions gun laws you get all fired up and charge into the debate with that reasoning and it drives everybody mad to the point where they grind their teeth because you won't listen to anybody's point of view besides your own -- not a good way to try and win a debate.
Oh yes ill just go with the flow and say lets ban guns. thats not how you debate. you stick with your opinion when you debate and thats exactly what i do
The US and UK are comparable and it's probably the best example to be used. The UK has stricter gun laws and guess what? They don't have multiple high profile shootings every week in the news! I understand that you have a thing for guns; but mass shootings are not rare in the United states. Since 1982 there have been 61 mass shootings and in 50 of those shootings the gunmen have purchased their guns legally. They were purchased following every rule in the book and look at the result. I would call that a flawed system and I think that the general consensus is in agreement right now.

The UK have never been allowed to own guns have they? no so they havent had a chance to have guns. the US has always been allowed to have and ow guns there for we wont give tehm up

In the UK where they have stricter gun control they don't have this problem -- in fact it isn't a problem -- at least nothing like ours is. If we modeled our gun laws to be more like theirs I would venture to say that we would not be hearing about stories like this as often as we are.

look above

No, the law abiding citizens who carry guns on their person will NOT make it better. They will NOT be the ones to fix the problem and they will NOT be encouraged to do so under any circumstance. Vigilante justice is a terrible idea and throws any order that has been established out of the window. When vigilante's take matters into their own hands they endanger themselves and the lives of innocent bystanders. A poorly trained vigilante cannot do the job that professionals do and will only lead to a more dangerous situation for everybody.

Ok so let the police officers take care of it? it takes them an average of 10 minutes to respond. you could slaughter a whole building by then if you wanted plus the police wont shoot unless shot at first. a law abiding citizen carrying a gun takes 10 seconds to take out a gun and the have no ROE they can shoot to kill

I don't think you really understand the severity of the situation because all you seem to care about are your guns and them not being taken away. I'm sorry but that really doesn't and shouldn't matter when it comes down to it. If innocent lives are being taken on a weekly basis now because our gun laws aren't protecting us like they should be then a change needs to happen and I hope it does.

I understand it and banning guns isnt the solution. ok we can ban semi automatic rifles i agree but no handguns and manual rifles.

[ImCoolBeans]

Oh yes ill just go with the flow and say lets ban guns. thats not how you debate. you stick with your opinion when you debate and thats exactly what i do

Going with the flow and letting go of beliefs is not how to debate. However, keeping the same, unreasonable and radical beliefs is not how you fix something when there is clearly an issue with that system of beliefs.

The UK have never been allowed to own guns have they? no so they havent had a chance to have guns. the US has always been allowed to have and ow guns there for we wont give tehm up

You clearly don't know what you're talking about because firearms are not banned in the UK, bert. They just have a stricter control on them. In 1997 the ownership of pistols was almost completely banned; but there are exceptions. You can still buy/own pistols manufactured before 1917 and you may still purchase pistols of historical interest and value.

Since it appears that you have not looked into their laws regarding gun control before stepping into the debate I'll quote an article from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974). The excerpt describes the process one must go through in the UK to attain a gun legally:
Getting a licence is a long and complicated business. Every stage of the process is designed to reduce the likelihood of a gun falling into the wrong hands. It starts with an application form which asks specific questions about why the individual wants a gun, telling them they need to show "good reason".

The criteria are tougher for firearms than shotguns because weapons that fire bullets must only be used for specific purposes in specific places. These would include deer stalking or sports shooting on an approved range.

In contrast, shotguns tend to be used in more general rural circumstances, such as by farmers who are protecting livestock from foxes - and police recognise that landowners need guns for pest control.

Independent referees provide confidential character statements in which they are expected to answer in detail about the applicant's mental state, home life and attitude towards guns.

Officers check the Police National Computer for a criminal record and they speak to the applicant's GP for evidence of alcoholism, drug abuse or signs of personality disorder. Social services can also be asked for reasons to turn down an applicant.

Finally, senior officers must be sure that prospective shotgun holders have a secure location for the weapon, typically a dedicated gun cabinet. Each certificate is valid for five years.

A much more thorough process similar to this one would help the US a lot. If somebody claims to be such a law abiding citizen and they want to use the gun for legal purposes then why would he or she have an issue completing a process like that one? (hint: they shouldn't.)

Ok so let the police officers take care of it? it takes them an average of 10 minutes to respond. you could slaughter a whole building by then if you wanted plus the police wont shoot unless shot at first. a law abiding citizen carrying a gun takes 10 seconds to take out a gun and the have no ROE they can shoot to kill

Despite the fact, it is still extremely dangerous to allow vigilante justice. If we had stricter gun control then we would not have ever had a need for that in the first place.

I understand it and banning guns isnt the solution. ok we can ban semi automatic rifles i agree but no handguns and manual rifles.

You clearly don't understand it because not once in my reply did I use the word "ban" or the words "get rid of". I said make the laws stricter -- not make having a gun illegal.

[Professional Russian]

Going with the flow and letting go of beliefs is not how to debate. However, keeping the same, unreasonable and radical beliefs is not how you fix something when there is clearly an issue with that system of beliefs.

The UK have never been allowed to own guns have they? no so they havent had a chance to have guns. the US has always been allowed to have and ow guns there for we wont give tehm up

You clearly don't know what you're talking about because firearms are not banned in the UK, bert. They just have a stricter control on them. In 1997 the ownership of pistols was almost completely banned; but there are exceptions. You can still buy/own pistols manufactured before 1917 and you may still purchase pistols of historical interest and value.

Since it appears that you have not looked into their laws regarding gun control before stepping into the debate I'll quote an article from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974). The excerpt describes the process one must go through in the UK to attain a gun legally:


A much more thorough process similar to this one would help the US a lot. If somebody claims to be such a law abiding citizen and they want to use the gun for legal purposes then why would he or she have an issue completing a process like that one? (hint: they shouldn't.)





You clearly don't understand it because not once in my reply did I use the word "ban" or the words "get rid of". I said make the laws stricter -- not make having a gun illegal.

I doesnt matter people will still fall through the cracks and get guns legally. Nothing is fool Proof. I agree with highly regulateing guns like AR-15s AK-47 Clones and so on. But regulateing Hunting rifles,which i usually relie on for food, is absurd so is regualteing handguns. i mean there are some handguns i dont agree with i mean who needs a revolver in 30-30 or a 500 S&W those are almost impossible to control and ill logical but handguns like 9mms and 45s shouldnt be regulated thats what most people carry and some even hunt with

[ImCoolBeans]

I doesnt matter people will still fall through the cracks and get guns legally. Nothing is fool Proof. I agree with highly regulateing guns like AR-15s AK-47 Clones and so on. But regulateing Hunting rifles,which i usually relie on for food, is absurd so is regualteing handguns. i mean there are some handguns i dont agree with i mean who needs a revolver in 30-30 or a 500 S&W those are almost impossible to control and ill logical but handguns like 9mms and 45s shouldnt be regulated thats what most people carry and some even hunt with

People will fall through the cracks in any given situation, Bert; but that doesn't mean you ignore the fact completely. You cannot make progress until you take the first step -- and increasing gun control is that first step in this scenario.

Why should a hunting rifle not be regulated? That is utterly absurd and you have not backed that opinion up once successfully throughout any of your debates.

Whether or not you use the rifle for hunting, protection or just because you collect guns you should fall under the same restrictions and regulations. I'm not sure if you actually read the quote from the article I provided because if you had read it you would have seen that you would still be able to purchase hunting rifles, you would just need to take a few extra steps to get there. Considering the severity of the issue concerning gun control in the US I don't think that taking a few extra steps is such a huge deal. I think you're too unwilling to change or listen to any opposing points of view to realize that.

[Professional Russian]

People will fall through the cracks in any given situation, Bert; but that doesn't mean you ignore the fact completely. You cannot make progress until you take the first step -- and increasing gun control is that first step in this scenario.

Why should a hunting rifle not be regulated? That is utterly absurd and you have not backed that opinion up once successfully throughout any of your debates.

Whether or not you use the rifle for hunting, protection or just because you collect guns you should fall under the same restrictions and regulations. I'm not sure if you actually read the quote from the article I provided because if you had read it you would have seen that you would still be able to purchase hunting rifles, you would just need to take a few extra steps to get there. Considering the severity of the issue concerning gun control in the US I don't think that taking a few extra steps is such a huge deal. I think you're too unwilling to change or listen to any opposing points of view to realize that.

ok so lets say that we do regulate guns more. The criminals find the illegal gun trade. they get guns with more capabilitys then they could have gotten legally. automatics, grenade launchers. you name they have it. the massacres will get worse.

[Erasmus]

First I'll say that what happened was extremely terrible.

Trying to control guns will do nothing. Drugs are illegal, how difficult is it for anyone to get and use drugs. I live in the middle of Wisconsin, not near a major city at all, but I could get any drug within an hour. Control guns and it will be the same thing. Here in Wisconsin, almost every family has guns, some for hunting, some for sport, but kids around here are taught to fear and respect them.

People forget that there are something like 100 million gun owners in America, why aren't there 100 million school shootings if guns were the problem? More people are killed in car accidents in the US each year than by guns, why don't people talk about regulating or banning cars?

Look where a lot of these tragedies take place (schools, the mall, the movies), all places where you're less likely to encounter someone who will shoot back and try to stop you.

Just this week 22 people were stabbed in China in a school. They don't allow guns, so what happened, people got stabbed in stead.

The problem is the people. There are 311 million people in the US. That's a lot of people. More people will win the lottery this year than will participate in mass murder with a gun.

As long as there are people, there will be crazy/angry people that will hurt others. And they will use whatever is available to do it.

The amount of people has NOTHING to do with the number of gun deaths. Here in Canada, the is proportionally 4x less gun-related deaths than the USA. And like other people have said, because of our gun-control laws, I've never seen a gun in real life.

[ImCoolBeans]

ok so lets say that we do regulate guns more. The criminals find the illegal gun trade. they get guns with more capabilitys then they could have gotten legally. automatics, grenade launchers. you name they have it. the massacres will get worse.

Bert, don't be ridiculous. Please.

The same gun trade is around right now, nothing is stopping them from using it, but you don't just walk out your front door and take a stroll on down to the black market. It isn't THAT difficult to illegally obtain guns but it is much more expensive, dangerous and not everybody knows where to get one, which is why I'm pretty confident in saying that not everybody is going to go to those lengths.

Here is a quote from my reply three replies ago:
Since 1982 there have been 61 mass shootings and in 50 of those shootings the gunmen have purchased their guns legally. They were purchased following every rule in the book and look at the result. I would call that a flawed system and I think that the general consensus is in agreement right now.

That statistic shows that 81% of mass public shootings have been carried out with legally obtained guns, therefore disproving your previous statement. Eliminating that factor will drastically reduce this crime rate.

[Professional Russian]

Bert, don't be ridiculous. Please.

The same gun trade is around right now, nothing is stopping them from using it, but you don't just walk out your front door and take a stroll on down to the black market. It isn't THAT difficult to illegally obtain guns but it is much more expensive, dangerous and not everybody knows where to get one, which is why I'm pretty confident in saying that not everybody is going to go to those lengths.

Here is a quote from my reply three replies ago:


That statistic shows that 81% of mass public shootings have been carried out with legally obtained guns, therefore disproving your previous statement. Eliminating that factor will drastically reduce this crime rate.

Oh Christ trust me its fucking expensive i know that story. yes i now. bbut 19% were not legal that shows since they are legally obtainable they get them legally. but if wer to ban them that 19% would go up because they have no other way. as i always say
Bad Guys Will Always Get Guns.

[ImCoolBeans]

Oh Christ trust me its fucking expensive i know that story. yes i now. bbut 19% were not legal that shows since they are legally obtainable they get them legally. but if wer to ban them that 19% would go up because they have no other way. as i always say
Bad Guys Will Always Get Guns.

So you're telling me that every one of those people are going to go out and illegally obtain a gun? That sounds like a bit of a stretch, Bert. Sure some will but I highly doubt that every single person is going to go through those lengths.

The objective here would be to lower the crime rate, there is no way to eliminate it completely. By making gun laws stricter I would say that the crime rate would be successfully lowered.

[Professional Russian]

So you're telling me that every one of those people are going to go out and illegally obtain a gun? That sounds like a bit of a stretch, Bert. Sure some will but I highly doubt that every single person is going to go through those lengths.

The objective here would be to lower the crime rate, there is no way to eliminate it completely. By making gun laws stricter I would say that the crime rate would be successfully lowered.

not all of them but if they really want commit the crime they will go do it. It would lower but probably not more than 1-2%

[ProudConservative]

The murder rate in England is actually up since the gun control laws. Gun control doesn't work. The black market will boom if they become illegal. Making it easier to get guns. Hell, I could go I into Baltimore right now and get myself a gun if I truly wanted to get one that way. Yes, policies for getting them needs to be a bit tighter. just a background check on the person buying them. Just the person.

Do I really have to quote myself. It's just as easy now for criminals to get guns in the US as in the UK. It's called the black market. Gun control will never work, the murder rate in the UK is up. And to answer PRussian, I would feel comfortable with my teachers having guns in the classroom. Keep it in a locked drawer, with the key in another locked drawer that you have the key to. Israeli teachers have AK's in the classroom. I'm not saying to go that far, just a handgun, a glock.

[Professional Russian]

Do I really have to quote myself. It's just as easy now for criminals to get guns in the US as in the UK. It's called the black market. Gun control will never work, the murder rate in the UK is up. And to answer PRussian, I would feel comfortable with my teachers having guns in the classroom. Keep it in a locked drawer, with the key in another locked drawer that you have the key to. Israeli teachers have AK's in the classroom. I'm not saying to go that far, just a handgun, a glock.

1. I never asked the question 2. Glocks suck....unless its a 21 then its ok but it still sucks

[DerBear]

Do I really have to quote myself. It's just as easy now for criminals to get guns in the US as in the UK. It's called the black market. Gun control will never work, the murder rate in the UK is up. And to answer PRussian, I would feel comfortable with my teachers having guns in the classroom. Keep it in a locked drawer, with the key in another locked drawer that you have the key to. Israeli teachers have AK's in the classroom. I'm not saying to go that far, just a handgun, a glock.

The black market isn't a justifiable statement. It is possible for anybody to get anything if they have the money and the time and resources. The Murder Rate, this year and last year has fallen in the UK. You would feel comfortable with a teacher having a gun in class? Really? I wouldn't feel comfortable with my teacher having a weapon in her desk and I think many here and elsewhere in the world would agree. Also your comparison to Israeli and the UK and USA is such a wide spectrum. You can't compare the two countries with Israeli as they have a completely different ideology and history.

[ImCoolBeans]

not all of them but if they really want commit the crime they will go do it. It would lower but probably not more than 1-2%

Do I really have to quote myself. It's just as easy now for criminals to get guns in the US as in the UK. It's called the black market. Gun control will never work, the murder rate in the UK is up.

The rate has been drastically declined over the last 8 years. It is now currently lower than it was in 1997 when the laws had began to change. I would call that a success.

Here are some statistics to consider:
There were 7,024 offences in England and Wales in which non-air weapon firearms were reportedly used, a 13% decrease on the previous year, continuing the general decline since 2005/06.

There were 4,203 recorded crimes in which air weapons were reportedly used during 2010/11, a fall of 15% compared with the previous year and 70% below the peak recorded in 2002/03.

Chart 1 shows the trend in total firearm offences recorded by the police since 1969. The number of offences generally rose from the late 1990s to a peak of 24,094 offences in 2003/04. The number of firearm offences has fallen in each year since then with 11,227 offences recorded in 2010/11, 13% lower than the previous year and 53% below the peak of
2003/04.

Chart 1: http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p494/ImCoolBeans1/Picture1.png?t=1355598885

This information, along with the chart, was taken from a PDF released by Parliament on January 30th, 2012. If you would like to download and view this PDF click here (www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf).

[Professional Russian]

The rate has been drastically declined over the last 8 years. It is now currently lower than it was in 1997 when the laws had began to change. I would call that a success.

Here are some statistics to consider:


Chart 1: image (http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p494/ImCoolBeans1/Picture1.png?t=1355598885)

This information, along with the chart, was taken from a PDF released by Parliament on January 30th, 2012. If you would like to download and view this PDF click here (www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01940.pdf).

Yes it will fall but massacres will still happen you cant prevent that. Then the next thing hear after they restrict guns youll republicans bitching and moaning about it.

[ImCoolBeans]

Yes it will fall but massacres will still happen you cant prevent that. Then the next thing hear after they restrict guns youll republicans bitching and moaning about it.

So we should ignore the issue because once in a while a massacre may still occur? We should ignore the issue because republicans who are too stuck in their ways to change something for the better will bitch and moan about it?

No. We shouldn't ignore it for either of those reasons and doing so would be idiotic. If you cannot accept change then society will never make any progress and people will still be fighting over the same thing years down the line. The issue needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed now -- waiting for reasons like "republicans will complain" or "yeah but they might still happen" is only going to let the current situation run on even longer, taking more lives than needed.

[Professional Russian]

So we should ignore the issue because once in a while a massacre may still occur? We should ignore the issue because republicans who are too stuck in their ways to change something for the better will bitch and moan about it?

No. We shouldn't ignore it for either of those reasons and doing so would be idiotic. If you cannot accept change then society will never make any progress and people will still be fighting over the same thing years down the line. The issue needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed now -- waiting for reasons like "republicans will complain" or "yeah but they might still happen" is only going to let the current situation run on even longer, taking more lives than needed.

I never said ignore it. in part i agree with you. but anything we do will not completely solve the problem. I just want to know after we restrict all that stuff how much will it cost just o be able to carry? :P

[FreeFall]

If guns were banned, the number of guns would go down, and fewer criminals would have access to guns,
The number of guns we know of would go down. The number of illegally owned and illegally obtained guns would sky rocket. Criminals that really wanted guns, would get them. They'd find a buddy who saved some, they'd make some, they'd go to friends in different lands and get guns from them. There'd be organizations, there already are anyways, looking to sell weapons to idiot Americans. The drug cartel would get more profit in gun dealing from those that want both.

thus reducing gun crime. It might go up temporarily, but will go down eventually.
How do you figure? People would be more shifty in hiding their gun and not use it as openly?

Having guns in society leads to gun crime. That is a fact. Fewer guns means less gun crime. The way to fight gun crime is to reduce the total number of guns, not be increasing it.
This makes sense, but is it applicable to real life? Especially to American society? Where if I go to Philly I could bet myself to be shot the closer I go in the alley ways?

I'm just curious. I'm not defending gun laws but I'm not supporting the right to bare arms.

[Inventor2]

The ass that gave me bad rep for me saying giving people guns will stop crime, think about this. If there is a mall and you know at least 100 out of the 500 people in the building where carrying a firearm, WOULD YOU ROB IT?!?! Dont think so. So get to reality b4 making stupid statements

[Human]

We Need them to protect our selves from the people that have slipped through the cracks and are insane that have gotten guns. If guns were banned and someone breaks in my house and has a gun that they got illegally how am i supposed to protect my self? i aint useing a knife i want to shoot that fucker. Canada and England arguments are invalid to the US gun laws. And reduceing guns wont reduce crime rates it will make them sky rocket. now someone answer me this. have any of you ever noticed that mass shootings happen in gun free zones? Schools: Gun Free. Colorado Theatre: Gun Free Zone. Will someone please use a brain and thin for once
People have broken into my house and I have never shot them or stabbed them, I called the police and they handled it even when I have been by myself and I live in a small village
(because i left the door unlocked)
In 2007 there were 12,632 gun homicides in the USA, in England it remains below 100 a year usually. In 11 years, 2000-11 there were 3 police officer murders in the UK. Gun control clearly works.

The ass that gave me bad rep for me saying giving people guns will stop crime, think about this. If there is a mall and you know at least 100 out of the 500 people in the building where carrying a firearm, WOULD YOU ROB IT?!?! Dont think so. So get to reality b4 making stupid statements

Well it clearly doesn't stop people in America, does it? Because if everyone has a gun, like it appears to be in America, why are there 10,000 more gun related murders than most other places?

Double post merged ~ ImCoolBeans

[Neptune]

The ass that gave me bad rep for me saying giving people guns will stop crime, think about this. If there is a mall and you know at least 100 out of the 500 people in the building where carrying a firearm, WOULD YOU ROB IT?!?! Dont think so. So get to reality b4 making stupid statements

In a mass gunman situation, the goal usually is death. Do you really think that a gunman cares if you have a gun? He likely thinks he is going to die anyways. In a situation where so many people have guns, can you imagine how much people will be injured or killed because of cross fire? Trained police officers injured 11 people earlier this year when they had a shoot out in front of the Empire State Building, do you think your shooting skills or those around you are better then trained police officers?

[Sugaree]

Background checks for everyone in the family/lives in the home. The gun owner must have a cabinet with a lock built in that requires a code provided for them, not one they can make up. If the code is lost, the one who owns the gun can be the only one to go to the dealership in person with identification forms.

Which is exactly what should be called for, not making guns completely illegal.

I dont want the England and canada banned guns and dont have any problems bullshit. The US is different. We Guns to protect us and get us food....atleast i do. Banning guns from the US will make it worse because you would be taking guns from the law abiding citizens that use them to protect them selves. now how is that logical someone please explain? The Bad guys will always get guns too. there is illegal gun trade. making guns illegal will be like drugs. if someone wants they will go and get it. Banning would also cause a civil war in this country and trust me the goverment wont win. Ultimately its illogic, fucking stupid, and not even possible to ban guns from the US

Most citizens don't even own guns. The 4.3 million members of the NRA only constitutes for a small percentage of people who DO own guns, and that's just the majority of the people who own guns. There's about 300 million guns that the government knows are in the United States and are legally owned. Don't you think that's a little excessive? I'm not calling for an outright ban, but I think we need to tone down our attitudes towards guns in general.

Yes, criminals will always be able to get guns. They'll also be able to get knives, bombs, grenades, or whatever other weapon they want. Guns, however, are much more accessible than anything else. No, it's not right to take away the firearms of people who legally obtained them, but it's also not right to allow someone to own semi-automatic assault rifles.

How many more shootings is it going to take before America finally take action on their gun control? In recent times, first it was the Batman shooting in Aurora, then it was the temple shooting in Wisconsin, and now it's the devastating, heartbreaking shooting in Connecticut.

It's not gun control for many people, it's more like gun awareness. Being aware that guns should be used only as a last resort when it comes to life threatening situations is not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing either to be aware that guns can also be a healthy hobby for many people in their downtime.

But looking at these isolated incidents and saying "WE NEED STRICTER GUN LAWS" isn't what we need to do. The majority of gun crimes are directly linked to domestic or urban crimes. Yes, 20 children died in this incident, but what about the other kids who are killed by other similar acts? What about the 16 year old in Chicago being gunned down on Friday and being buried by his mother on Wednesday? What about the wife who was shot after an argument with her abusive husband? There's plenty of local murders in my area that involve the victim being shot. And where are they shot? Street corners, homes, alleys, and behind buildings. They aren't shot with other people in an office building, theater, or school; but places where hundreds of people pass by during the day.

(I was going to write something else after this quote, but it's at the end of this post.)

Wells start with differences. since you liberals have no brains. The US is alot more different than the UK. there is shittons of illegal gun trade in The US. The UK has about none. also the law abiding citizens would be the ones that can pass a psych exam and a training course.

You know how easy it is to pass a psych exam, right? I've been able to bypass three mental hospital stays because I knew what they wanted to hear. They didn't note my reactions or body language, just my answers. Instead of giving someone a passing mark for what they answer, how about for HOW they answer? Psych exams are a joke in the United States.

If guns were banned, the number of guns would go down, and fewer criminals would have access to guns, thus reducing gun crime. It might go up temporarily, but will go down eventually.

See, this is what I don't totally get about liberals who think they can wave a magic wand over this issue. Now I'm not bashing liberals here, but this is my point: why do you think banning guns will solve the problem? I agree with Bert here, there's other ways of obtaining a weapon, and that's not just guns alone. Granted it's not easy to find a black market dealer, but it's not hard to find a drug dealer. What will stop someone from finding a black market dealer if they can already find a drug dealer?

You know, instead of dividing crime into different categories (gun crime, etc.), let's talk about crime as a whole. Everyone would love for the crime rate to be down in total, I'm assuming? Well, what about crimes committed with knives? Should we ban knives then? Yesterday, 20 children in China were stabbed while in school, yet China isn't considering a ban on knives. Hey, what about baseball bats, shovels, or any other type of sharp/blunt object? Should we ban those too because some lunatic starts batting heads down the street or smashing brains with a spade? Guns are not the only tool used to commit a crime, so banning one thing isn't going to solve the issue as a whole. Focus on the entire picture, not one brushstroke.

The ass that gave me bad rep for me saying giving people guns will stop crime, think about this. If there is a mall and you know at least 100 out of the 500 people in the building where carrying a firearm, WOULD YOU ROB IT?!?! Dont think so. So get to reality b4 making stupid statements

Yeah, but that's a big assumption on your part. If you're going to assume that 1/5th of the people in that mall have a firearm, which is a pretty astronomically high chance, then no one would rob a crowded mall. But if there's just a small number of people in the mall, maybe 100 total, that gives the would be criminal a slightly higher chance of being successful for whatever they're planning. I would find it more concerning, however, that people feel the need to conceal carry a firearm in public.

It's been a day or so since I last checked this thread, and there's a lot of bullshit from both sides being spewed. I mean, seriously, if you want to see sewer debates on VT next to abortion, this is your thread. But I just want to say something that needs to be said.

While everyone is debating guns for a few more days, talking about more regulations, why someone would do this, just remember that some bad shit went on today. There were 20 children who left for school Friday morning and didn't come back home. There were 6 adults who left for their job and didn't come back home. There are parents who must now bury their children. There are children who must now bury their parents.

There is no excuse for a debate. There's not even a debate to be found here. All that's left now is bullet casings and empty beds. It wouldn't have mattered if someone had a gun and was able to shoot this bastard when he started. Someone was going to die. Unfortunately more people died than needed, and no one had to die. Right now is not the time to debate about guns, gun control, or anything relating to guns. Right now is a time for us to gather around those who have lost their children, their brothers, their sisters, their mothers, and their fathers. We can debate later, but now is a time for solidarity.

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to get a gun in this country. Even for someone who has severe mental problems, you just need the money and you can get a gun. It's ok to own a gun, for protection or even for a hobby, but being lax about handing a semi-automatic rifle to a mentally unstable person is defying any moral obligation to your fellow human beings. If you think someone is going off the deep end, talk to them. Get them the help they need. Don't wait for something like this to happen to care.

People will only care when this happens. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people die in drive by shootings, domestic shootings, and the like; where's their breaking news story? Where's their three day straight coverage? It's nowhere to be found because people don't care unless it's a mass shooting. One kid dead in Chicago obviously isn't enough to warrant national attention for twenty kids dead in Newtown. And that's where the sad part of this story is. Everyone cares for the people in Aurora for two weeks and then forgets about them for the next massacre to occur. I don't get it, and frankly, I don't WANT to get it. By the end of January, everyone will forget about this and then another mass shooting will happen, probably in a high school or maybe another movie theater. Then the cycle repeats itself until the end of time.

My point in this short rant is that you shouldn't care when this shit is done in mass amounts. You should care just as much for a single life being taken just as much as twenty lives taken. I say this mostly because of the parents. I hope none of you have to go through the pain of burying your children at any point in your adult life. I wouldn't wish that even on my worst enemy. But I've seen it happen a few times, and knowing it happens every day hurts my heart. Yet this is how life happens. It's morbid, but it's the reality we must live with if we want to continue living. Good night, thread.

[Inventor2]

In a mass gunman situation, the goal usually is death. Do you really think that a gunman cares if you have a gun? He likely thinks he is going to die anyways. In a situation where so many people have guns, can you imagine how much people will be injured or killed because of cross fire? Trained police officers injured 11 people earlier this year when they had a shoot out in front of the Empire State Building, do you think your shooting skills or those around you are better then trained police officers?

Yes he still might do it, but someone might shoot him befor hes done. And even if thats just one person saved, thats one person that can go home to see there familys once again. It dosnt matter what there training is, because it only takes one person to make a difference and i know God will be looking down on that person so they take that one shot to save a life. We as Americans, need to defend ourselves from the evil and sick being out there. We need to stand up for ourselves and our country, not surrender to the cold blooded. They want us scared and deffensles. I wont let it happen, i will not be a victim, and neither should you or any other rightful being. We need to defend ourselves and take action. If everyone can defend themselfs, knowone will be hurt except for the bad.


O and btw, one of my reletives is in the service, and my grandfather died for our country. Also my cousin is a police officer in the state of NY. I Have been trained to use firearms and fight for my self when needed. Im also in a archery leauge and training for the junior olympics and then headed to the world olympics when im ol enough. So next time you better watch it and not insult me, our police forces, country, or citezens and their right to stand their ground. You have no idea what our police and armed forces do for us and what they are capable of. And you certainly dont know me.

[Inventor2]

Which is exactly what should be called for, not making guns completely illegal.



Most citizens don't even own guns. The 4.3 million members of the NRA only constitutes for a small percentage of people who DO own guns, and that's just the majority of the people who own guns. There's about 300 million guns that the government knows are in the United States and are legally owned. Don't you think that's a little excessive? I'm not calling for an outright ban, but I think we need to tone down our attitudes towards guns in general.

Yes, criminals will always be able to get guns. They'll also be able to get knives, bombs, grenades, or whatever other weapon they want. Guns, however, are much more accessible than anything else. No, it's not right to take away the firearms of people who legally obtained them, but it's also not right to allow someone to own semi-automatic assault rifles.



It's not gun control for many people, it's more like gun awareness. Being aware that guns should be used only as a last resort when it comes to life threatening situations is not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing either to be aware that guns can also be a healthy hobby for many people in their downtime.

But looking at these isolated incidents and saying "WE NEED STRICTER GUN LAWS" isn't what we need to do. The majority of gun crimes are directly linked to domestic or urban crimes. Yes, 20 children died in this incident, but what about the other kids who are killed by other similar acts? What about the 16 year old in Chicago being gunned down on Friday and being buried by his mother on Wednesday? What about the wife who was shot after an argument with her abusive husband? There's plenty of local murders in my area that involve the victim being shot. And where are they shot? Street corners, homes, alleys, and behind buildings. They aren't shot with other people in an office building, theater, or school; but places where hundreds of people pass by during the day.

(I was going to write something else after this quote, but it's at the end of this post.)



You know how easy it is to pass a psych exam, right? I've been able to bypass three mental hospital stays because I knew what they wanted to hear. They didn't note my reactions or body language, just my answers. Instead of giving someone a passing mark for what they answer, how about for HOW they answer? Psych exams are a joke in the United States.



See, this is what I don't totally get about liberals who think they can wave a magic wand over this issue. Now I'm not bashing liberals here, but this is my point: why do you think banning guns will solve the problem? I agree with Bert here, there's other ways of obtaining a weapon, and that's not just guns alone. Granted it's not easy to find a black market dealer, but it's not hard to find a drug dealer. What will stop someone from finding a black market dealer if they can already find a drug dealer?

You know, instead of dividing crime into different categories (gun crime, etc.), let's talk about crime as a whole. Everyone would love for the crime rate to be down in total, I'm assuming? Well, what about crimes committeud with knives? Should we ban knives then? Yesterday, 20 children in China were stabbed while in school, yet China isn't considering a ban on knives. Hey, what about baseball bats, shovels, or any other type of sharp/blunt object? Should we ban those too because some lunatic starts batting heads down the street or smashing brains with a spade? Guns are not the only tool used to commit a crime, so banning one thing isn't going to solve the issue as a whole. Focus on the entire picture, not one brushstroke.



Yeah, but that's a big assumption on your part. If you're going to assume that 1/5th of the people in that mall have a firearm, which is a pretty astronomically high chance, then no one would rob a crowded mall. But if there's just a small number of people in the mall, maybe 100 total, that gives the would be criminal a slightly higher chance of being successful for whatever they're planning. I would find it more concerning, however, that people feel the need to conceal carry a firearm in public.

Just to get this strait, 1/5 of the people in the mall isnt that big of a number. Actualy its probably not high enough. In the state of vermont 87% of their people own and carry firearms. Nothing ever happens there because of it. I dont wanna come off as a jerk or anything but its what the statistics are. And last i dont think it really is that easy. Because that guy in Connecticut tried to buy a rifle and was actualy denide. He then stole his mothers. I guarenty you also if his mother didnt have then he would have still gotten his hands on firearms through an illegal market

[chrisawesome]

Certain lethal weapons should be banned in this country. Extremely dangerous weapons should only be in the hands of rightful authority. I am not saying that we have to abandon our second amendment, but if a law created that only effects certain people will make the whole country safer, then it should be illegal to carry a dangerous weapon like the one in this case. Those people who call having certain guns as their hobby need to get over it, they shouldnt have dangerous weapons like that at their disposal. All Americans have to right to own a gun for protection, but there needs to be limits !!!

In fact what really pisses me off i this case is that the gunmann shot himself. He needs to go to court and see the grieving, sorrowful, mourning, disturbed parents and families in the eye. Then be tied up in the streets for everyone to see. Get raped and ROT in jail. And finally be shot in the head, like many of those innocent children had to go through. Screw the 8th amendment. He should have been punished EVEN MORE.

I can imagine him going to HELL and feeling the hate, sorrow and loveless emotion in HELL. I bet Satain cant even stand him.

[Inventor2]

If guns were banned, the number of guns would go down, and fewer criminals would have access to guns, thus reducing gun crime. It might go up temporarily, but will go down eventually.

Having guns in society leads to gun crime. That is a fact. Fewer guns means less gun crime. The way to fight gun crime is to reduce the total number of guns, not be increasing it.

Actualy no the number wouldnt go down. There are 270 million firearms in the U.S. if you think they are going anywhere then your insane. People need to defend them selfs. Not give up

[Inventor2]

Certain lethal weapons should be banned in this country. Extremely dangerous weapons should only be in the hands of rightful authority. I am not saying that we have to abandon our second amendment, but if a law created that only effects certain people will make the whole country safer, then it should be illegal to carry a dangerous weapon like the one in this case. Those people who call having certain guns as their hobby need to get over it, they shouldnt have dangerous weapons like that at their disposal. All Americans have to right to own a gun for protection, but there needs to be limits !!!

In fact what really pisses me off i this case is that the gunmann shot himself. He needs to go to court and see the grieving, sorrowful, mourning, disturbed parents and families in the eye. Then be tied up in the streets for everyone to see. Get raped and ROT in jail. And finally be shot in the head, like many of those innocent children had to go through. Screw the 8th amendment. He should have been punished EVEN MORE.

I can imagine him going to HELL and feeling the hate, sorrow and loveless emotion in HELL. I bet Satain cant even stand him.


I am an American. I am a free citizen. I should be able to own any firearm i want reguardless. I should not have to have someone be in my way and not let me have it.

[Sugaree]

Just to get this strait, 1/5 of the people in the mall isnt that big of a number. Actualy its probably not high enough. In the state of vermont 87% of their people own and carry firearms. Nothing ever happens there because of it. I dont wanna come off as a jerk or anything but its what the statistics are. And last i dont think it really is that easy. Because that guy in Connecticut tried to buy a rifle and was actualy denide. He then stole his mothers. I guarenty you also if his mother didnt have then he would have still gotten his hands on firearms through an illegal market

Actually, the report saying that Adam went to buy a rifle and was denied was found out to be false. Security footage from the store he supposedly went to confirms this.

I am an American. I am a free citizen. I should be able to own any firearm i want reguardless. I should not have to have someone be in my way and not let me have it.

Stay entitled.

[Wesl3y]

If is a shame that this had turned into politics. May the twenty children who had had their lives unwillingly cut short, and seven adults who died doing what they love, all rest in peace. The families and friends of the victims are in my thoughts and prayers.

[FreeFall]

I am an American. I am a free citizen. I should be able to own any firearm i want reguardless. I should not have to have someone be in my way and not let me have it.
You sound like a child whining about ice-cream.
At least give reasons. It stands for a better argument than just gimme what I want because I can have it.
It's a hobby. You're interested in the mechanics of guns. You like seeing the evolution of guns. You live where there's frequent break ins and need a way to hold off the intruder until police come. You've got a stalker that can't be put on an RO because your RO laws suck in your favor. You're a victim of domestic violence and fear waking up to your abuser sitting on the edge of your bed. Your great-great-great war veteran grandfather used to own a gun/gun like what you want and there's strong sentiment and pride attached to it. It's a family heirloom. Something, anything?

[Inventor2]

You sound like a child whining about ice-cream.
At least give reasons. It stands for a better argument than just gimme what I want because I can have it.
It's a hobby. You're interested in the mechanics of guns. You like seeing the evolution of guns. You live where there's frequent break ins and need a way to hold off the intruder until police come. You've got a stalker that can't be put on an RO because your RO laws suck in your favor. You're a victim of domestic violence and fear waking up to your abuser sitting on the edge of your bed. Your great-great-great war veteran grandfather used to own a gun/gun like what you want and there's strong sentiment and pride attached to it. It's a family heirloom. Something, anything?

Yes actualy i do have somethings but i would rather not discuss them. But what i will tell you is i have a hobby with the makings and mechanisms of guns. And i also like it for the sport (skeet and trap shooting, pistol matches, spending time with my dad ect.) but tuhe other reason is i dont want our country to have our rights stripped from us. And hes not my "great-great-great" grandfather.

If is a shame that this had turned into politics. May the twenty children who had had their lives unwillingly cut short, and seven adults who died doing what they love, all rest in peace. The families and friends of the victims are in my thoughts and prayers.

Read my last post, i feel the same way. I just have a problem with giving up.

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[Erasmus]

Actualy no the number wouldnt go down. There are 270 million firearms in the U.S. if you think they are going anywhere then your insane. People need to defend them selfs. Not give up

But if there weren't any guns, they wouldn't have to defend themselves!

[Inventor2]

But if there weren't any guns, they wouldn't have to defend themselves!

But there will always be guns! You people are so iggnorent too because there are more weapons then guns like knifes, daggers, ect.

[Professional Russian]

But if there weren't any guns, they wouldn't have to defend themselves!

Why don't you people learn . The bad guys will always get guns.

[ProudConservative]

Why don't you people learn . The bad guys will always get guns.

I've known this for a while now.

[User Deleted]

In the paraphrased words of Morgan Freeman

It's not because people have guns that this happens, it's because people want to be remembered. It's because of the news coverage making a big deal out of it. They will be remembered as a horrible monster rather than forgotten as a sad average person. It's because they want people to know them. Why work so hard to become well known when it's just as easy to get all the popularity of a life's work with a gun.

[TigerBoy]

I'm ambivalent about this to be honest, but I'm seeing more facts and persuasive arguments from the 'control' lobby in this thread.

In the UK we are only just getting laws to support home owners in using force to defend their homes, a fact that I find ridiculous. I'm far from being a violent person, but if someone breaks into my house I have no problem in using whatever force or threat of force I need in order to make myself and my home safe. I'm not a big guy or some kind of ninja, that doesn't leave me a lot of options, so I have sympathy with the idea of guns for home defence.

But there will always be guns! You people are so iggnorent too because there are more weapons then guns like knifes, daggers, ect.
Very true (the 'other weapons' part, not the 'ignorant' part). The issue with 'other weapons' is that knives don't kill people so easily or with so little risk to the user: the stabbings in china (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910) resulted in 22 woundings, not killings. Its not great, but those kids will (hopefully) all make it.

On the 'ignorant' part: you aren't going to win agreement or credibility in a debate by calling people ignorant (especially when your spelling isn't so great).

Why don't you people learn . The bad guys will always get guns.
Sure the bad guys will get guns, but why make it easy for them? You seemed to agree with Mike's points on this earlier? Its not that you can make guns go away any more than bad people. I think the issue needs to be about to arrive at more effective and acceptable gun control not gun elimination (since I agree with you that the latter is impossible). As a self-confessed gun nut, do you have any thoughts yourself about what sorts of measures you would be happy with or would not be happy about?

[Professional Russian]

Sure the bad guys will get guns, but why make it easy for them? You seemed to agree with Mike's points on this earlier? Its not that you can make guns go away any more than bad people. I think the issue needs to be about to arrive at more effective and acceptable gun control not gun elimination (since I agree with you that the latter is impossible). As a self-confessed gun nut, do you have any thoughts yourself about what sorts of measures you would be happy with or would not be happy about?

I mean we don't need to have AR-15s and AK-47 clones and we don't 33 round Glock magazines. We really don't need semi automatic rifles. They are no use to hunt with. If you want hunt and have fast follow up shots use a Remington 7600 its pump action and delivers fast accurate follow up shots. Most semi automatic rifles aren't big enough to hunt with anyways.

[TigerBoy]

I mean we don't need to have AR-15s and AK-47 clones and we don't 33 round Glock magazines. We really don't need semi automatic rifles. They are no use to hunt with. If you want hunt and have fast follow up shots use a Remington 7600 its pump action and delivers fast accurate follow up shots. Most semi automatic rifles aren't big enough to hunt with anyways.

Ok I'm not up on guns but it sounds like you look at them as tools, so you'd be ok with banning the more military style stuff rather than the hunting weapons?

I guess if you took that line, you'd look at some way to limit it to people who were legitimately using rifles in that context?

[Professional Russian]

Ok I'm not up on guns but it sounds like you look at them as tools, so you'd be ok with banning the more military style stuff rather than the hunting weapons?

I guess if you took that line, you'd look at some way to limit it to people who were legitimately using rifles in that context?

Semi automatics are fun to shoot if you have the money and they are good for competition but in reality there is no good use for them other than military applications

[The Flash]

People have broken into my house and I have never shot them or stabbed them, I called the police and they handled it even when I have been by myself and I live in a small village
(because i left the door unlocked)
In 2007 there were 12,632 gun homicides in the USA, in England it remains below 100 a year usually. In 11 years, 2000-11 there were 3 police officer murders in the UK. Gun control clearly works.



Well it clearly doesn't stop people in America, does it? Because if everyone has a gun, like it appears to be in America, why are there 10,000 more gun related murders than most other places?

Double post merged ~ ImCoolBeans

Im guessing they've broken in several times before. If i were to own a firearm, i dont think anyone would want to break into my home. The police can only do so much.
What if you're in your house when they break in? and they try to harm your family?
It's better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it.
Look at other statistics. Drunk Drivers kill more people than firearms do. should we ban cars/alochol?

Actually, the report saying that Adam went to buy a rifle and was denied was found out to be false. Security footage from the store he supposedly went to confirms this.



Stay entitled.

The Glock, Sig Sauer, and the .223 Rifle were registered to his mother.

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[Human]

Im guessing they've broken in several times before. If i were to own a firearm, i dont think anyone would want to break into my home. The police can only do so much.
What if you're in your house when they break in? and they try to harm your family?
It's better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it.
Look at other statistics. Drunk Drivers kill more people than firearms do. should we ban cars/alochol?

if they break in my house and try to harm my family i own a knife, and at least here in england i wouldn't want to hurt him because he could probably still seek charges against me, yes it's happened before.
how would the thieves know you have a firearm? it'd be too late when you've shot them in the face and it wasn't the same thieves, they wouldn't go back to their burglar friends and inform them i have a gun.
i'd say it's better to realise you do not need one and should not have it

[Sugaree]

The Glock, Sig Sauer, and the .223 Rifle were registered to his mother.

Yes, I know that. What did that piece of information have to do with my post? Inventor said that the guy tried to buy a rifle at a sporting goods store, but that information was false.

[The Flash]

if they break in my house and try to harm my family i own a knife, and at least here in england i wouldn't want to hurt him because he could probably still seek charges against me, yes it's happened before.
how would the thieves know you have a firearm? it'd be too late when you've shot them in the face and it wasn't the same thieves, they wouldn't go back to their burglar friends and inform them i have a gun.
i'd say it's better to realise you do not need one and should not have it

A lot of gun owners put up signs making people aware that they support the second amendment, and will do whatever they can to protect their family. Also word spreads fast! If someone broke in, and i shot them, other "robbers" would hear about it (through media), and wouldnt want to mess with me.

What if the guy who breaks in has a gun? a knife wouldnt do. if you were to call the police, it would take them an average on 20 minutes to respond, and considering the UK doesnt arm officers, they would have to get a firearms team in, brief them of the situation, then send them. That would result in a longer response time.

Yes, I know that. What did that piece of information have to do with my post? Inventor said that the guy tried to buy a rifle at a sporting goods store, but that information was false.

oh, i thought u were saying something else. whoops, misunderstood you.

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[Inventor2]

Very true (the 'other weapons' part, not the 'ignorant' part). The issue with 'other weapons' is that knives don't kill people so easily or with so little risk to the user: the stabbings in china (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910) resulted in 22 woundings, not killings. Its not great, but those kids will (hopefully) all make it.

On the 'ignorant' part: you aren't going to win agreement or credibility in a debate by calling people ignorant (especially when your spelling isn't so great).


Sure the bad guys will get guns, but why make it easy for them? You seemed to agree with Mike's points on this earlier? Its not that you can make guns go away any more than bad people. I think the issue needs to be about to arrive at more effective and acceptable gun control not gun elimination (since I agree with you that the latter is impossible). As a self-confessed gun nut, do you have any thoughts yourself about what sorts of measures you would be happy with or would not be happy about?

Measures i would be comfortable with? Yes. First off in massachusettes you can be denide the right to carry wich i feel is wrong. But for stricter laws i would like to see backround checks on all people buying firearms at gun shows, stores ect. I want guns regulated on a federal level instead of state to state. It makes it way to confusing and causes problems. I do believe anyone should be fingerprinted the first time buying a firearm and it should be recorded. Also three signed references from doctor, family member, and friend saying you are sane. I do not think banning certain guns is the answer. I beleive anyone should be able to own any firearm.


Second part to this is it dosnt have to be a knife. People could make homemade bombs. Thats way more deadly then any firearm. And the problem with that is its way to easy to make a bomb.

Btw im sorry about spelling. Im doing this on my iphone and the keys are really small. Ill try and do better. And just to be a jerk, you spelled defense wrong:P also i didnt mean ignorant really as harsh, i know it sounded it.

if they break in my house and try to harm my family i own a knife, and at least here in england i wouldn't want to hurt him because he could probably still seek charges against me, yes it's happened before.
how would the thieves know you have a firearm? it'd be too late when you've shot them in the face and it wasn't the same thieves, they wouldn't go back to their burglar friends and inform them i have a gun.
i'd say it's better to realise you do not need one and should not have it

Im a little confused by this. But what i can say is we have the news on TV, magazines, and internet. Also when the police investigate they would need to tell the family he belonged to he was killed while trying to harm another citizen. Also if a neibor hood is known that all the houses can defend themselfs and rightly own firearms, knowone would rob it. Sorta like someone would never rob a police station.

Inventor said that the guy tried to buy a rifle at a sporting goods store, but that information was false.


Yes i am sorry about that. I was watching the news at the time and they said that. Either way it was allready illegal for him to posses the firearms. No law could have stopped him.

Merged triple post. -Gigablue

[TigerBoy]

Measures i would be comfortable with? Yes. First off in massachusettes you can be denide the right to carry wich i feel is wrong. But for stricter laws i would like to see backround checks on all people buying firearms at gun shows, stores ect. I want guns regulated on a federal level instead of state to state. It makes it way to confusing and causes problems. I do believe anyone should be fingerprinted the first time buying a firearm and it should be recorded. Also three signed references from doctor, family member, and friend saying you are sane. I do not think banning certain guns is the answer. I beleive anyone should be able to own any firearm.
Ok thanks for sharing, that was all genuinely interesting. I think many of those ideas could help, however all of this does still rely on the licensed gun owner having good security to prevent someone else accessing their weapon as has been mentioned previously.

Second part to this is it dosnt have to be a knife. People could make homemade bombs. Thats way more deadly then any firearm. And the problem with that is its way to easy to make a bomb.

Sure, although you're getting into major premeditated stuff with a lot more chance of getting picked up for doing that. Someone who loses their temper and grabs a handy rifle is in a position to do a lot of damage with very little effort. Any reduction in availability will help that, of course.

And just to be a jerk, you spelled defense wrong:P
Not in England, I didn't :P

[UnknownError]

Bert are you even old enough to own a gun.

[Professional Russian]

Bert are you even old enough to own a gun.

no does that matter though?

[Erasmus]

no does that matter though?

Yeah, yeah it kinda does...

[Professional Russian]

Yeah, yeah it kinda does...

How?

[Erasmus]

How?

Well, I dunno, you seem to always be talking about how you want this new gun, but you're too young to own one?

[Professional Russian]

Well, I dunno, you seem to always be talking about how you want this new gun, but you're too young to own one?

I get the money and my dad signs for it. we have a good system going.

[Erasmus]

I get the money and my dad signs for it. we have a good system going.

Wait, so you're saying that even though you're too young to own guns, you can still shoot them? That seems kinda stupid...

[Professional Russian]

Wait, so you're saying that even though you're too young to own guns, you can still shoot them? That seems kinda stupid...

yeah. it doesnt matter how old you are. its legal to shoot a gun at any age. buying is restricted but shooting isnt

[UnknownError]

Well that just proves a point though doesn't it. You're legally not allowed to have a gun yet you have so many. It shows how they obviously don't check into these things well enough.

[Inventor2]

Ok thanks for sharing, that was all genuinely interesting. I think many of those ideas could help, however all of this does still rely on the licensed gun owner having good security to prevent someone else accessing their weapon as has been mentioned previously.

^yes i do agree with the last statement. In Massachusetts we have a law that says all firearms must be locked when not in use. Although i do belive when everyone in your house is home, and you feel that everyone in your house is responsable with guns, you can leave them out. But not when your gone so they could be stolen.

Not in England, I didn't :P

^and what ever:P i tried!

[Anselmo]

A portuguese comedian said for the first time something without a sarcastic tone, like he usualy does, it was something like: "18 children dead in a shooting in a school in USA. And those motherfuckers still think everyone should have guns." I think there should be more strict gun control for those who want a gun with no hunting purposes

[Inventor2]

Well that just proves a point though doesn't it. You're legally not allowed to have a gun yet you have so many. It shows how they obviously don't check into these things well enough.

But thats wrong information. He dosnt own any firearms at all, his parents do. And his parents are responsable, law obeying citizens. Absolutly nothing needs to be checked in about at all.

A portuguese comedian said for the first time something without a sarcastic tone, like he usualy does, it was something like: "18 children dead in a shooting in a school in USA. And those motherfuckers still think everyone should have guns." I think there should be more strict gun control for those who want a gun with no hunting purposes

I dont think you understand why more people need guns because of this. I think you should check into it more. People need to protect themselves and stand their ground. Not fall to be a victim. Said by the governor of texas on live FOX News "i had only prayed that princible had had a rifle locked up in her office. So when she heard gunfie she could have blown his head off before he did the same to 20 innocent children"

[Professional Russian]

Well that just proves a point though doesn't it. You're legally not allowed to have a gun yet you have so many. It shows how they obviously don't check into these things well enough.

No its because its my dad buying it I just give him the money and he has a clean record so legally he can have those.

[Anselmo]

I dont think you understand why more people need guns because of this. I think you should check into it more. People need to protect themselves and stand their ground. Not fall to be a victim. Said by the governor of texas on live FOX News "i had only prayed that princible had had a rifle locked up in her office. So when she heard gunfie she could have blown his head off before he did the same to 20 innocent children"

Those were his words on live national television, man i don't think he plays with the full deck.
Idk if you noticed, but for most europeans USA is like " so advanced in some stuff....so retarded on others"...those same others are things like your gun laws, this is the image we get, because we have strict laws for guns, and so far there weren't that many mass shootings...

[Inventor2]

Those were his words on live national television, man i don't think he plays with the full deck.
Idk if you noticed, but for most europeans USA is like " so advanced in some stuff....so retarded on others"...those same others are things like your gun laws, this is the image we get, because we have strict laws for guns, and so far there weren't that many mass shootings...

What? That made no sense at all.

So are you pro-guns? Or pro-gun laws?

[Neptune]

Yes he still might do it, but someone might shoot him befor hes done. And even if thats just one person saved, thats one person that can go home to see there familys once again. It dosnt matter what there training is, because it only takes one person to make a difference and i know God will be looking down on that person so they take that one shot to save a life. We as Americans, need to defend ourselves from the evil and sick being out there. We need to stand up for ourselves and our country, not surrender to the cold blooded. They want us scared and deffensles. I wont let it happen, i will not be a victim, and neither should you or any other rightful being. We need to defend ourselves and take action. If everyone can defend themselfs, knowone will be hurt except for the bad.


O and btw, one of my reletives is in the service, and my grandfather died for our country. Also my cousin is a police officer in the state of NY. I Have been trained to use firearms and fight for my self when needed. Im also in a archery leauge and training for the junior olympics and then headed to the world olympics when im ol enough. So next time you better watch it and not insult me, our police forces, country, or citezens and their right to stand their ground. You have no idea what our police and armed forces do for us and what they are capable of. And you certainly dont know me.

No offense was meant. I was not trying to offend our police service or you with that comment; I was simply stating a fact. My father and mother both work in the law enforcement field, one as a sergeant and the other as a police officer. My brother was in the service too. Don’t go off acting like your better than me because I do understand what our police and armed force do for us every day and I didn't saying anything about our armed forces, why bring them up?

[Inventor2]

No offense was meant. I was not trying to offend our police service or you with that comment; I was simply stating a fact. My father and mother both work in the law enforcement field, one as a sergeant and the other as a police officer. My brother was in the service too. Don’t go off acting like your better than me because I do understand what our police and armed force do for us every day and I didn't saying anything about our armed forces, why bring them up?

I wasnt trying to act like im better then you. Just from what you said about the police hitting 11 people it implide you whee saying they suck and dont know what they were doing. Then when u basicaly said i dont know anything. But i was kinda stressed at the moment and said somethings that whent a little too far. Youve had time like that right? We all have. Sorry

And to your parents and brother, i respect

[Erasmus]

yeah. it doesnt matter how old you are. its legal to shoot a gun at any age. buying is restricted but shooting isnt

That seems really stupid to me, it's like saying only people above 19 can buy alcohol, but anyone can drink it. It seems idiotic...

[Professional Russian]

That seems really stupid to me, it's like saying only people above 19 can buy alcohol, but anyone can drink it. It seems idiotic...

Wait so your saying that you have be old enough to buy a gun to shoot?

[Jakejjj]

That really is sad and they were just kids I hope he suffers rip kids

[Erasmus]

Wait so your saying that you have be old enough to buy a gun to shoot?

I have no clue about the gun laws here, and they may very well be like the States, but if they are, they seem really stupid to me.

[Professional Russian]

I have no clue about the gun laws here, and they may very well be like the States, but if they are, they seem really stupid to me.

Why? Are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to shoot s gun because I'm not 18 or 21?

[workingatperfect]

There have been SO many statements in this thread that have amazed me at certain people's ignorance, I can't possibly address them all..

First of all, giving teachers guns is not the answer, that's the worst idea possibly ever. What they need to do is have better security in the schools. My old school only let parents and students in and they weren't allowed anywhere but the office unless they had an appointment set up or something. We had cameras everywhere, and there was always an armed cop on duty. We're not allowed to have backpacks in class and not allowed to have purses at our desks during class. The only way there could possibly be a shooting in my old school was staff or in the hallway where they'd be stopped almost immediately, as the teachers are typically watching the halls. So no, you don't need to give teacher guns, you just need to up security.

Second, yes, there is a black market in the US for guns. But, do you know where the guns come from in the first place? Probably one of the most popular is people who buy guns legally and then sell them. No, that is not the only way, but it's a big way, trust me, I know. You take away that market, you've greatly decreased the amount of gun owners. Then, consider this: How many people are really going to go through all that trouble to get a gun? It's just like when you ask people if they'd smoke pot if it was legal. They just don't want to deal with the fact that it's illegal. So yeah, tighter gun control would help in some way. At the very least, there should be better control somehow. Background checks, psychological evaluations not only when you first get your gun license, but every couple years that you renew it, whatever it may be. Banning them may not be the best idea, I'll give you that, but better control definitely needs to happen.

Also, someone brought up the whole insanity innocence thing. Whether someone is insane or not, they're still a dangerous killer, it changes absolutely nothing. They deserve to get help, sure, but they can get help from jail or high security mental facility, where they can't kill anyone else.

[Erasmus]

Why? Are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to shoot s gun because I'm not 18 or 21?

Yeah, pretty much.

[Professional Russian]

Yeah, pretty much.

What. The. Fuck. Why Would you say that? thats just fucking stupid. see having people not being able to drink underage is illegal because it damages your body. Shooting doesnt

[kyler]

What a coward he was. Why can't they just do away with themselves and leave the planet for the rest of us

[Erasmus]

What. The. Fuck. Why Would you say that? thats just fucking stupid. see having people not being able to drink underage is illegal because it damages your body. Shooting doesnt

But don't you think that you might not be able to practice proper judgement at such a young age? I mean, I guess 15 or 16 is okay, but a 10-year old shooting a gun? That's just ridiculous.

[ProudConservative]

Yeah, pretty much.

Wait, so are we not responsible enough? Did you know that gun homicide has the least amount of deaths. More people for from accidental falls and car accidents a day than gun homicide.

[Professional Russian]

But don't you think that you might not be able to practice proper judgement at such a young age? I mean, I guess 15 or 16 is okay, but a 10-year old shooting a gun? That's just ridiculous.

Its called. wait for this its gonna blow your mind. Adult Supervision

[Erasmus]

Wait, so are we not responsible enough? Did you know that gun homicide has the least amount of deaths. More people for from accidental falls and car accidents a day than gun homicide.

Yes, but those things, for the most part, are accidents. Gun massacres are not. They can be prevented.

[Gordo]

Seems like we need to do something more for the mentally unstable people. Evil will find a way. I read the dead killer was smart, so he could have made a bomb.

How messed up do you need to be to shoot your mom in the face? IDK what she was thinking anyway having guns around when she has a kid who she's afraid of.

Then you have his brother who is a few years older, but hasn't spoken to him for two years. That's says something about the shooter or the home where he was raised. Plus kids that went to school with him said he was pretty odd and that he wore a shirt and tie and carried a brief case instead of a book bag, didn't have any friends or make any eye contact and some guy who baby sat for him years ago said that the mom told him to never turn you back on him. Not even for a second. wow.

So way back the mom knew the kid was a messed up.

[ProudConservative]

Yes, but those things, for the most part, are accidents. Gun massacres are not. They can be prevented.

Why take away the guns from the 99% of law abiding citizens because the 1% kills people with other people for no reason. Why should the 1% make the other 99% to suffer and not be able to protect themselves. Also, don't give me that "police will come" crap, because the po-po wouldn't be notified in time to stop the gunman. Guns are a right, and a privilege. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/top-15-causes-of-death

Here's a link to back it up.