Yet another sponsor withdraws from homophobic Boy Scouts of America

[TigerBoy]

Following Synagogues (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2019430&postcount=1), and other major sponsors such as Intel and UPS, another one of BSA's few remaining sponsors withdraws their support due to the Scout's homophobic policies.

Merck Foundation stops giving donations to the Boy Scouts, cites Scouts' anti-gay policy

Associated Press
11:17 a.m. EST, December 10, 2012
WHITEHOUSE STATION, N.J. (AP) — Merck's charitable foundation has stopped giving money to the Boy Scouts of America.

The Merck Foundation says the Boy Scouts' exclusion of gays from its ranks and leadership positions conflicts with giving guidelines and the company's nondiscrimination policy.

The foundation says it will reconsider giving money to the Boy Scouts if they change their policy on sexual orientation.

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Merck CEO Kenneth C. Frazier was a scout in his youth. He received the "Good Scout" Award from the Philadelphia Cradle of Liberty Boy Scout Council in June.

Records show the foundation gave $30,000 to The Boy Scouts of America in 2011 and $10,000 to the Cradle of Liberty Council.

Merck is a pharmaceutical and health company based in Whitehouse Station, N.J.


The group Scouts for Equality founded by Zach Wahls have a petition to ask Verizon to follow suit (http://www.change.org/petitions/verizon-pull-your-donations-until-the-boy-scouts-pull-their-anti-gay-policy).

[Sir Suomi]

Ugh, I hate this. On one side, I support the Boy Scouts for standing up to their traditions, and following the rules. But on the other hand, I know our world today is fast changing. Is it for the better? I've yet to decide. But I will admit, maybe tweaking the rules would benefit everyone, and then all this drama can be over with.

[Jess]

Good. The world's changing and the Boy Scouts of America (at least the people who are homophobic) needs to accept people for who they are

[FreeFall]

Love it. Wonder if they will ever change, or learn to accept that not everyone is straight.

[Sugaree]

Ugh, I hate this. On one side, I support the Boy Scouts for standing up to their traditions, and following the rules. But on the other hand, I know our world today is fast changing. Is it for the better? I've yet to decide. But I will admit, maybe tweaking the rules would benefit everyone, and then all this drama can be over with.

Organizations which tend to believe in traditional values need to realize that change happens quickly. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the BSA actually standing up for their beliefs (though I, and many other people, find them abhorrent); but they can't be that way forever. More than anything, the BSA should be willing to accept gay members if they meet the same requirements as straight members. A Boy Scout is a Boy Scout, there's no difference between a gay one and a straight one.

Rules also have to be changed once in a while. Perhaps now is the time for them to change their rules regarding homosexuality and the LGBT in general.

[ReginaGeorge]

All I can say is good. I can see the bad side and the consequences for the innocent Scouts, but homophobia should not be tolerated, it's discrimination. This is helping enforce that message. Enough is enough.

[TigerBoy]

standing up to their traditions, and following the rules.
Traditions and Rules, what an excellent justification for, I don't know, hanging two boys of 17 and 18 for being gay...

--photo removed-- ~ ImCoolBeans


But on the other hand, I know our world today is fast changing. Is it for the better? I've yet to decide. But I will admit, maybe tweaking the rules would benefit everyone, and then all this drama can be over with.
Yeah maybe hating on people could be a teensy bit bad.

[Sir Suomi]

Traditions and Rules, what an excellent justification for, I don't know, hanging two boys of 17 and 18 for being gay...



Yeah maybe hating on people could be a teensy bit bad.

Okay, now when did I say that traditions like hanging people was alright? I was stating that they were founded upon a non-homosexual standard, and it's been like that since their founding. So yes, they may be homophobic, but that's just how it's been. It's a shame that boys who turned out to be homosexual get expelled from the BSA, but it's their rules. It's not like they are lining them up and shooting them. They are simply removing them from the organization.

And you don't have to be a smart ass about it. Yes, hating on people is bad, but so what? As long as no bodily harm is inflicted, who gives a shit? Seriously, personally, I hate it when people get abortions(When the reason behind it is, "Oh I don't want a baby it's too much of a responsibility, ruin my life, I'm not ready, etc.), but do you see me going on a killing rampage? No. I let them do what they choose, and I choose to leave them alone.

[DerBear]

I am happy to see that organisations who are sponsoring boy scouts are pulling out and trying to make them change. This isn't the 20th century this is the 21st century. Organisations like this need to open their eyes and see that we are not living in the dark ages and that times have changed.

We have ever growing more discussion on gay marriage.
We have more equality among, gender, race, sexuality.
We have more freedom as people than we did 60 years ago

Its time organisations like the boy scouts who don't allow gays to join get pulled into the equality society.

[TigerBoy]

Okay, now when did I say that traditions like hanging people was alright? I was stating that they were founded upon a non-homosexual standard, and it's been like that since their founding.
You are justifying their divisive and bigoted actions based on habit and tradition. I just illustrated how fucking stupid that piece of rationalisation is.


And you don't have to be a smart ass about it. Yes, hating on people is bad, but so what? As long as no bodily harm is inflicted, who gives a shit?

Disagreeing, providing evidence and being better informed than you are isn't being a "smart ass". You clearly have no idea about many gay people have been assaulted, killed, or bullied into suicide because of anti-gay hate in the USA alone. You have an entire campaign named after one such killing, the Matthew Shepard Foundation (http://www.matthewshepard.org/). I suggest you go educate yourself. So yes, bodily harm results. And yes, I give a shit about that.


Seriously, personally, I hate it when people get abortions(When the reason behind it is, "Oh I don't want a baby it's too much of a responsibility, ruin my life, I'm not ready, etc.), but do you see me going on a killing rampage? No. I let them do what they choose, and I choose to leave them alone.
This is a complete red-herring argument. Conflating your views on a separate issue that you admit yourself doesn't lead to a comparable effect is irrelevant hyperbole.

Either bigotry is acceptable or it is not. There is no middle ground here. You start with accepting that discrimination based on some difference is ok and it ends up with killing people for that same difference.

[Mortal Coil]

AIRHedfm,ceopuAJRIHTOSG I am so damn tired of the stupid BSA and other homophobes thinking that who someone falls in love with/what gender they are attracted to is any justification for treating them as subhuman. The world changes and the people have to change with it. I mean, really while they're at it, they might as well have 100% kosher food on their camping trips (book of Leviticus, same as the part about homosexuality) and not allow anyone to shave.

[Iron Man]

AIRHedfm,ceopuAJRIHTOSG I am so damn tired of the stupid BSA and other homophobes thinking that who someone falls in love with/what gender they are attracted to is any justification for treating them as subhuman. The world changes and the people have to change with it. I mean, really while they're at it, they might as well have 100% kosher food on their camping trips (book of Leviticus, same as the part about homosexuality) and not allow anyone to shave.

Don't forget the part about wearing mixed fabrics. Apparently, that was supposed to be a big no-no, up there with homosexuality.

[Jupiter]

AIRHedfm,ceopuAJRIHTOSG I am so damn tired of the stupid BSA

*ahem* i happen to be a 6 year member of the boyscouts of america. i also happen to not be homophobic. stop classifying. not just you alex.. but everyone.

[TigerBoy]

*ahem* i happen to be a 6 year member of the boyscouts of america. i also happen to not be homophobic. stop classifying. not just you alex.. but everyone.

Point taken, and apologies for my part if I gave that impression. Given that loads of scouts and scout leaders backed the gay scouts who were kicked out (Tim Griffin and Ryan Andresen, and leader Jennifer Tyrrell) to the extent of returning their badges etc, its clear that there is plenty of grassroots support within the BSA for gay members.
(https://www.facebook.com/ScoutsForEquality)
The criticism I am levelling is very specifically at the senior leadership and those who support them in their homophobia.

[Sir Suomi]

You are justifying their divisive and bigoted actions based on habit and tradition. I just illustrated how fucking stupid that piece of rationalisation is.


Disagreeing, providing evidence and being better informed than you are isn't being a "smart ass". You clearly have no idea about many gay people have been assaulted, killed, or bullied into suicide because of anti-gay hate in the USA alone. You have an entire campaign named after one such killing, the Matthew Shepard Foundation (http://www.matthewshepard.org/). I suggest you go educate yourself. So yes, bodily harm results. And yes, I give a shit about that.


This is a complete red-herring argument. Conflating your views on a separate issue that you admit yourself doesn't lead to a comparable effect is irrelevant hyperbole.

Either bigotry is acceptable or it is not. There is no middle ground here. You start with accepting that discrimination based on some difference is ok and it ends up with killing people for that same difference.

Okay, I'm going to try and be calm here, as I am tempted to do the mother of all facepalms here. Did I say that I hate the homosexual community? No.

I have no problem with them. I did state that they should tweak the rules, due to the fact that most members join very young, before they realize they are homosexual. And you are being unreasonable: I suggested that they tweak their rules slightly, but they have the right to follow their traditions. You started off comparing this to hanging homosexuals, which I DO NOT agree with, for your information.

I compared the subject of abortion here to this to use an example. It was my best way to put out my views, which I have come to realize about 95% of this community does not agree with, and I'm okay with that.

Yes, I know, the LGBT community has taken many losses due to bullying. It's a sad fact. But bullying happens regardless, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual. It's just our human nature, that hopefully one day we can change. But the fact that I don't support the LGBT community does not mean I am a person who thinks "Yes, the Gays must die!", instead, I just don't agree with it.

So maybe next time you question my rationality, take a second to think that just because I don't LGBT community, Abortion, Atheism, whatever the hell it is, doesn't mean I'm "Stupid".

[TigerBoy]

Okay, I'm going to try and be calm here, as I am tempted to do the mother of all facepalms here. Did I say that I hate the homosexual community? No.
Nor did I say that you did. So this is irrelevant.

. And you are being unreasonable:
Incorrect, I am using reason, you just don't appear to understand it. I'll try again.


I suggested that they tweak their rules slightly, but they have the right to follow their traditions.
Do you wear a top hat? That was traditional once too. There are plenty of bizarre traditions still out there (ThaiPusam (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Thaipusam8.jpg)). Burning witches (and gays) was a tradition once. Some traditions think chucking babies out of windows (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204699/Pictured-Horrific-baby-dropping-ritual-India-sees-toddlers-thrown-roof-good-prosperity.html) is a great idea. Bullfighting for entertainment. "Beauty" traditions of foot bending (china), neck stretching(Burma), force feeding (Mauritania) . Honour killings (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-12-08/kolkata/35688159_1_police-station-headless-body-duty-officer). All traditions. Yay, that's ok then.

Just because something is 'traditional' doesn't make it sensible or right. At some point someone has to say "guys, we're running out of witches and gays, but we've got plenty of firewood left here and its much easier to get a fire going with it."

Repeating something with no rational basis soley because it is a habit or tradition is utterly stupid. Doing so when it causes harm is downright malicious.

You started off comparing this to hanging homosexuals,
Yep. Problem? Bigotry is bigotry. It starts with seeing gays as different and nasty so we exclude them, and its ok to treat them as second class citizens with things like unequal marriage rights, or perhaps you make gay sex acts illegal. Why stop there? Make them illegal, and imprison them, and kill them. These things have happened in the UK, in the States, currently happen around the world, and countries like Uganda are making new laws as we speak to make them happen.


which I DO NOT agree with, for your information.
Why not? Where does your personal bigotry stop? Segregation and apartheid is ok apparently, but where do you stand on the legality of gay sex, or imprisonment for gay people?


I compared the subject of abortion here to this to use an example. It was my best way to put out my views, which I have come to realize about 95% of this community does not agree with, and I'm okay with that.
As an example of what? What have your views on abortion got to do with the boy scouts?


Yes, I know, the LGBT community has taken many losses due to bullying. It's a sad fact. But bullying happens regardless,
No, bullying happens because of apathy. Because 'its only words'. Bullying happens because of bullies. Bullying happens because people like you think its ok to be 'a little bit bigoted' but that it doesn't really cause harm.


So maybe next time you question my rationality, take a second to think that just because I don't LGBT community, Abortion, Atheism, whatever the hell it is, doesn't mean I'm "Stupid".
Can I borrow your facepalm?

[Mortal Coil]

*ahem* i happen to be a 6 year member of the boyscouts of america. i also happen to not be homophobic. stop classifying. not just you alex.. but everyone.

I didn't mean all of the members; I was talking about the rules that the leaders are enforcing. Sorry.

[Drew5]

I doubt the BSA cares if all their sponsors pull out. More will show up and it's not like the latest one contributed much. The BSA is a club, not an organization that has to accept everyone like a school. I don't know why gays care so much abt BSA. If you view them as backwards, then why do you care? Why would you join?

The gay kids turning in their badges? Good for them. They figured it out that the BSA isn't for them. They can go find another club to join, or not. I find it odd that the BSA is more of minority than gays are and gays are intolerant of their values. The world can change, but values don't have to and in this case, they aren't going to change.

The world isn't a place where everyone has access to everything whenever they want it.

Maybe the gay community could have Gay Scouts of America if there are so many gay Americans out there. You don't hear straights complaining that the LBGT doesn't include straights because the core group doesn't interest them.

[Sir Suomi]

Can I borrow your facepalm?

Sorry, after this argument, I've run out of them sadly. But you know, I'm not going to try and argue on this site. It's pointless. Besides, what do I know, right? Just my personal opinion on things! :P

Edit: To whoever put a negative rep and asked why I oppose homosexuals, here's my answer:
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with homosexuals. Yes, it does slightly creep me out when I think about it, but I've came to realize that our world is changing. Do I think the LGBT community should have rights such as marriage? Possibly, in the future. But at our current time, at least in some parts of the country(Such as my home state), it would end up causing uproar, so as for now, maybe not as a national thing, but if states decide to have homosexual marriages and other things, I have no problem. They're human, and they deserve that right if they wish. It's just that in parts of the United States, too many people would not allow it. For what reasons is beyond me.

So there's that. By the way, next time you negative rep, leave me a name why don't you! :P

[FreeFall]

You don't hear straights complaining that the LBGT doesn't include straights because the core group doesn't interest them.
Straights complaining that the LGBT discriminates them because they are excluded on the basis of not being lesbian, gay, bi-sexual or transgendered, would be akin to the "heterophobia" term. A neologism, used to de-legitimatize the movement and concern.
Besides, we are included, but not as full force members. A few LGBT members include me because I am their ally. I have walked with them and waved their flag, as have a few other heterosexuals.

Also, on a different topic, when I said they in reference to the BSA, they meant them. The members who see nothing wrong with the code and kicking out the gay members. Not those who accept homosexuals and atheists and whatever else the BSA bans. It's a habit to say they instead of putting a little tagline of except for those who don't. It's rude of me though, I apologize.

[TigerBoy]

I doubt the BSA cares if all their sponsors pull out. More will show up and it's not like the latest one contributed much. The BSA is a club, not an organization that has to accept everyone like a school. I don't know why gays care so much abt BSA. If you view them as backwards, then why do you care? Why would you join?
This argument is just the same as the one used to have white bars and black bars, white dances and black dances. Arbitrary discrimination is not allowed on the basis of skin colour, and society has woken up to the fact that it shouldn't be allowed for sexuality either. And before you say "its not the same thing as black civil rights", be aware that black rights organisations such as the NAACP and other leaders say that it is.

The gay kids turning in their badges? Good for them.
Nope, it was straight adults ashamed by the organisations behaviour for the most part.

I find it odd that the BSA is more of minority than gays are and gays are intolerant of their values.
Yeah, intolerance of intolerance is really difficult for you to grasp, I can see.

The world can change, but values don't have to and in this case, they aren't going to change.
Incorrect - read history.


The world isn't a place where everyone has access to everything whenever they want it.

When there are reasons for that such as gender, disability or earned merit that is acceptable. When it is just because some idiot has a prejudice about something, that isn't acceptable.


You don't hear straights complaining that the LBGT doesn't include straights because the core group doesn't interest them.
Are you serious? Oh right, being Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Trans is now a CLUB. ok. If a straight person wants to "join" are you proposing they fake one of the first three, or just go for gender reassignment?

Besides, what do I know, right? Just my personal opinion on things! :P
You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.


Edit: To whoever put a negative rep and asked why I oppose homosexuals, here's my answer:
Not me, for the record. Just someone else you've offended, I'm guessing.

[Sugaree]

No, bullying happens because of apathy. Because 'its only words'. Bullying happens because of bullies. Bullying happens because people like you think its ok to be 'a little bit bigoted' but that it doesn't really cause harm.

Dude...you've got bullying way off the mark here. It's not because the bully thinks it's ok to be "a little bigoted", it's because bullies often have their own personal problems as well. Most bullies come from neglected roots, abusive homes, and a variety of things. It's not because they hate a certain group of people. By your logic, bullies ONLY target gay kids. What about black kids? What about white kids? Hell, what about kids that are short, tall, fat, skinny, nerdy...? Gay kids don't need to be up on the pedestal you like to put them on, because they aren't the only victims of bullying.

You know, if a straight kid committed suicide from being bullied, no one would give a rat's ass. But if a gay kid does it, everyone jumps on that bandwagon without ANY hesitation! Seriously, bullying isn't THAT narrow. It's not just bullying of gay kids that needs to stop, it's bullying all people that needs to stop. Bullying does not recognize racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other type of bigotry like you say it does.

It's attitudes like this that make me almost ashamed to be part of the LGBT, and it's part of the reason why I'm hesitant to call myself part of the group. So let's get off our high horse, take our heads out of the clouds, and fight bullying against all groups, not just our own.

[TigerBoy]

Dude...you've got bullying way off the mark here. It's not because the bully thinks it's ok to be "a little bigoted", it's because bullies often have their own personal problems as well. Most bullies come from neglected roots, abusive homes, and a variety of things. It's not because they hate a certain group of people.

Way off the mark huh? Which of my statements are way off the mark and why? If it wasn't clear to you, my point was that bullying is not limited to the big and obvious forms, it covers a spectrum and is enabled by people who stand by and do nothing (hence the apathy comment). I'm well aware about the causes of bullying, aside from my own research we recently had a week long campaign about it in UK schools and it is part of the PHSE curriculum. And while you cite some motivations for bullies, that is by no means a complete explanation of the psychology of bullying, nor does it contradict anything I've said.


By your logic, bullies ONLY target gay kids.
Absolute rubbish, I didn't say anything of the sort, nor did I imply that any other forms of bullying were less offensive to me. This is a complete strawman argument you have created yourself.

Your entire post is fallaciously attacking me for things I neither said nor implied.

[deadpie]

Okay, now when did I say that traditions like hanging people was alright? I was stating that they were founded upon a non-homosexual standard, and it's been like that since their founding. So yes, they may be homophobic, but that's just how it's been. It's a shame that boys who turned out to be homosexual get expelled from the BSA, but it's their rules. It's not like they are lining them up and shooting them. They are simply removing them from the organization

THIS IS SO DUMB! AHHHHHHHHHHHH! You're expelled because of something YOU CAN'T CONTROL! You cannot stop being gay. I don't give a shit what the rules are. That is discrimination. Your response to discrimination against gay people is "so what, at least you're not being shot at". Do you know how STUPID that is?

If the Boy Scouts said being african american is against the rules, which is something you can't control, would you just say, "get over it at least you're not being shot"? NO! But because it's gays it's ok? NO! You simply don't understand.

If someone that follows all of the rules, loves being a boyscout and is dedicated to it, but turns out to be gay, does that mean they should have that thing they love taken away from them because of something they cannot control about themselves? You don't think that hurts him? Some people REALLY find the boyscouts to be life changing and helpful. Just like music is very helpful to me. Taking away something that someone loves just because you think it's wrong is fucking dumb.

And you don't simply just "get over it" when something you love is taken away from you.

I did state that they should tweak the rules, due to the fact that most members join very young, before they realize they are homosexual.

See, I don't think straight people understand what it's like to be gay, probably because they're straight. Many gay people I know always knew they were different and interested in men. You can realize your sexuality at a young age.

So maybe next time you question my rationality, take a second to think that just because I don't LGBT community, Abortion, Atheism, whatever the hell it is, doesn't mean I'm "Stupid".

LGBT Community, Abortion, and Atheism are all very different things. There's many conservatives I know that are for gay marriage (My Grandma). I know atheist conservatives also (My Mom). There's also conservatives that have had abortions before. Also, I really don't get your "slightly against gay marriage thing". It really makes no sense to me. Why are you actually against it? You don't think it's wrong and you say that gay people are humans just like everyone else, so why are you against it? You said because some people wouldn't like it. Is that really your reason? Do you know how stupid that sounds? Because some people don't like it, even though you think it's ok, you think it 'kind of shouldn't' be legal? You're either for it or against it.

Also, when you say you don't support, what do you mean then? You say you don't hate gay people, but you just don't think they deserve any rights. That's pretty shitty. I think you don't like gay people at all, but are too scared to admit it publicly.

Another thing that bothers me is people thinking that religion determines political status. People think if you don't believe in a higher power you must be a leftist and if you do you must be on the right side. You can believe in religion and be for gay rights, abortion, and not have a problem with atheists. There's also gay religious people out there. Gay preachers and gay rabbi's DO exist. Political status does not have to determine religious status. I hate that idea so much it makes my blood boil.

You know, if a straight kid committed suicide from being bullied, no one would give a rat's ass. But if a gay kid does it, everyone jumps on that bandwagon without ANY hesitation!

Complete bullshit. Sure it's been seen on CNN a few times, but no matter what sexuality they are or anything else, anyone that I've known or where I've lived, when someone has committed suicide someone makes a facebook group for them and there's big ceremonies. In fact, none of the people I've heard about killing themselves where I lived before were gay from what anyone knows.

Also, the character in The Bully Project movie isn't gay and he's a pretty big story.

It's attitudes like this that make me almost ashamed to be part of the LGBT, and it's part of the reason why I'm hesitant to call myself part of the group.

Yeah because everyone in the LGBT thinks exactly like this. No. Also all because you're lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender doesn't mean you magically become part of this "community" people talk about. I don't really get where that comes from. I'm gay but I'm not part of any 'community' and I'm the only one that speaks for me.

[TigerBoy]

Complete bullshit. Sure it's been seen on CNN a few times, but no matter what sexuality they are or anything else, anyone that I've known or where I've lived, when someone has committed suicide someone makes a facebook group for them and there's big ceremonies. In fact, none of the people I've heard about killing themselves where I lived before were gay from what anyone knows.

Also, the character in The Bully Project movie isn't gay and he's a pretty big story.


Exactly. I was just making this point in a PM but I might as well put this out there too.

Anyone who wants to fight racisim or anti-Semitism or anything else like that is free to post relevant factual articles to VT Chronicle and will find me a supporter. I am against ALL forms of bullying. Gay bullying / rights is dear to my heart for two reasons 1) I am gay and 2) there is a LOT of it out there.

As far as the wider media, if you think the media is biased towards gays then there is an awful lot of evidence (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/media-unfairly-use-too-many-anti-gay-faith-voices120412)that even in the UK to show the opposite is (http://my.pinknews.co.uk/groups/profile/1006)true.

One reason the gay bullying thing crops up a lot is that there is substantial research (http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/lgbt-middle-school-students-and-national-bullying-prevention-month/)to show gay teens experience much more abuse than their straight counterparts. The second highest reported hate crime in the general US population is against gays, the first being racism, while even the authorities acknowledge the figures are low because of the stigma of reporting anti-LGBT crime.

As far as the notoriety of gay suicides, the issue is more 'out there' simply because the incidence of suicide Gay teens are considerably more likely to attempt suicide - figures released in the summer show that Israli gay teens are 112 times more likely (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/09/07/israel-high-rates-of-suicide-among-countrys-lgbt-youth/) to attempt suicide than their peers for example. Gay youth in the US are five times more likely to suicide (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/study-gay-teens-five-times-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/).

[CharlieFinley]

Traditions and Rules, what an excellent justification for, I don't know, hanging two boys of 17 and 18 for being gay...


You're right. That's definitely what they did. The difference between those two situations is the difference between my having a sip of wine and 30 seconds with your daughter and a bottle of rye and a night with her.

[TigerBoy]

You're right. That's definitely what they did. The difference between those two situations is the difference between my having a sip of wine and 30 seconds with your daughter and a bottle of rye and a night with her.

Yep there is a difference: your analogy is horribly flawed.

Sometimes drinking too much alcohol makes people do terrible things. On the other hand entire nations or religions don't make drinking too much alcohol law, policy or desirable. Nor do they make it mandatory to do terrible things as a direct consequence of drinking too much alcohol.

Substitute 'drinking too much alcohol' with 'homophobia'.

[CharlieFinley]

Yep there is a difference: your analogy is horribly flawed.

Sometimes drinking too much alcohol makes people do terrible things. On the other hand entire nations or religions don't make drinking too much alcohol law, policy or desirable. Nor do they make it mandatory to do terrible things as a direct consequence of drinking too much alcohol.

Substitute 'drinking too much alcohol' with 'homophobia'.

Your post at one point flirted with coherence, but I think it may have been accidental.

[TigerBoy]

Your post at one point flirted with coherence, but I think it may have been accidental.

Snide remarks don't constitute an argument, nor does a flawed analogy. If there is a point you are trying to make here perhaps you'd care to state it so we can debate it sensibly.

[Gordo]

homophobia? I don't think there are that many people afraid of gays.
It seems like people jump to thinking straights are bullying gays, but i don't think so. I think its:
1. guys questioning their sexuality, but trying to act straight, so they bully.
2. Guys who have their sexuality questioned, so to act straight, they bully.
3. A small portion of straights might bully because why would they care? It's one less dude that's gonna be after a girl they might be interested in.

[Sir Suomi]

You know what? I'm not even going to try and argue since Deadpie got here.....

[Drew5]

Exactly. I was just making this point in a PM but I might as well put this out there too.

Anyone who wants to fight racisim or anti-Semitism or anything else like that is free to post relevant factual articles to VT Chronicle and will find me a supporter. I am against ALL forms of bullying. Gay bullying / rights is dear to my heart for two reasons 1) I am gay and 2) there is a LOT of it out there.

As far as the wider media, if you think the media is biased towards gays then there is an awful lot of evidence (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/media-unfairly-use-too-many-anti-gay-faith-voices120412)that even in the UK to show the opposite is (http://my.pinknews.co.uk/groups/profile/1006)true.

One reason the gay bullying thing crops up a lot is that there is substantial research (http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/lgbt-middle-school-students-and-national-bullying-prevention-month/)to show gay teens experience much more abuse than their straight counterparts. The second highest reported hate crime in the general US population is against gays, the first being racism, while even the authorities acknowledge the figures are low because of the stigma of reporting anti-LGBT crime.

As far as the notoriety of gay suicides, the issue is more 'out there' simply because the incidence of suicide Gay teens are considerably more likely to attempt suicide - figures released in the summer show that Israli gay teens are 112 times more likely (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/09/07/israel-high-rates-of-suicide-among-countrys-lgbt-youth/) to attempt suicide than their peers for example. Gay youth in the US are five times more likely to suicide (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/study-gay-teens-five-times-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/).


Suicide is a choice. I doubt that getting picked on is the reason there is a suicide. More likely, bad parents or parent, mental issues, depressed, impulsive etc. A whole bunch of stuff. If gay kids kill themselves it's completely their choice and have a lot of issues. Maybe, but only maybe one of them is bullying, but more reasonable is they have mental issues. Basically, when someone commits suicide, it's not anyone's fault but their own. A conscious choice.

I think it's time to stop the culture of "things suck, but it's not my fault, so who can we blame that isn't me". And that so does not work for suicide, because, the person doing it, is the person to blame. Not anyone else.

It's one of the few things where the person is completely accountable and gets all the credit.

How many times are gay kids bullied by gay kids that are in the closet? Seems like the gay community has a lot of in house stuff to address before they start pointing fingers at other people.

[CharlieFinley]

Snide remarks don't constitute an argument, nor does a flawed analogy. If there is a point you are trying to make here perhaps you'd care to state it so we can debate it sensibly.

What I was trying to say is that the difference between barring someone from an organization based on sexual orientation (a policy which, by the way, I am emphatically against) and killing people based on that same orientation is, in fact, comparable to the difference between me making small talk with your daughter and me making the beast with two backs with her.

[TigerBoy]

Suicide is a choice. I doubt that getting picked on is the reason there is a suicide. ... Maybe, but only maybe one of them is bullying
Well is it a factor or isn't it? On what evidence do you base your assumption that it is a trivial factor, when all the experts involved in each particular case are content to attribute it as being the major cause of such deaths? For you to refute the expert verdicts, you need to convince us that a) your expertise and experience exceeds theirs and b) you have examined a statistically significant sample of those cases or c) provide some authoritative sources to back your claims.

I think it's time to stop the culture of "things suck, but it's not my fault, so who can we blame that isn't me". And that so does not work for suicide, because, the person doing it, is the person to blame. Not anyone else.
In general I agree, people need to take responsibility. I would argue this applies to bullies too. Seeking to pass or deflect the blame for their actions is as disingenuous as pulling the trigger and blaming the victim for not ducking in time.

How many times are gay kids bullied by gay kids that are in the closet? Seems like the gay community has a lot of in house stuff to address before they start pointing fingers at other people.
Self-evidently the closeted are not out in the "community", so how is any community to police those they don't even know exists? I propose the wider community should deal with the problem by making closets unnecessary.

What I was trying to say is that the difference between barring someone from an organization based on sexual orientation (a policy which, by the way, I am emphatically against) and killing people based on that same orientation is, in fact, comparable to the difference between me making small talk with your daughter and me making the beast with two backs with her.
Yes, it is a question of scale. That is entirely my point: these things need only start with innocuous changes, yet history shows us that the larger actions can and frequently will arise from the smaller.

Again you have made an analogy for us to interpret (which could lead the reader to do so incorrectly) and not actually stating the argument in plain terms.

[nino51300]

You can be a frickin' child molester but you can't be gay. How messed up is that?!?!?

[Drew5]

there isn't one, not one expert that will say, the reason for the suicide is bullying. The mind is complex, so one event or aspect of your life being bad isn't what breaks us. If you read about it, people who choose suicide don't sleep well, aren't eating right, don't feel safe, have a messed up family life or social life or both.

It's never one thing, so suiciders killing themselves just because they are bullied is hubris. What about self hatred? Hmmm ya think just maybe self hatred is a part of it?

Also if you want to see a judgmental catty, unaccepting group, just look at the one we're discussing. Gays ooze judgement and snide remarks but can't take it. Heck, there's discrimination within the LBGT group! If someone walks around saying there bi for long enough, the gays call him gay or say he's gay, but he just doesn't know it yet. AND they say this right to their face. Talk about not accepting someone!

The whole glass houses and rock thing comes to mind. straight acting gays talk junk about flaming gays, flaming gays talk crap abt straight looking guys and say they aren't true to themselves or they're living a lie or tryin' to pass. Do ya really think trannies feel included in LBGT? Or accepted at another gay place? The problems that people have aren't all caused by straights. Plenty of blame to go around. i.e. would you date a trannie?

[TigerBoy]

there isn't one, not one expert that will say, the reason for the suicide is bullying.

Totally incorrect. Here is a US study (http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/Cyberbullying-Only-Rarely-the-Sole-Factor-Identified-in-Teen-Suicides.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token)that is only 2 months old from the American Association of Paediatrics that shows that 78% of the teen suicides they looked at were attributed to bullying.

As for your other points, I am not disputing that other factors are at play in some cases, merely asking you to provide some facts for your assertions that they are more significant than the impact of bullying. However I can save you the bother since it isn't as significant as you seem to think: in the above study not even half of the group had mood disorders or depression.

Also if you want to see a judgmental catty, unaccepting group, just look at the one we're discussing. Gays ooze judgement and snide remarks but can't take it.
The only person making offensive remarks here is you, by making such generalisations.

Even assuming the LGBT community excluded the 'T' part, how does that alleged discrimination justify another group's?