A Change of Sex

[PerpetualImperfexion]

Assuming you have a significant other (we can pretend if you don't) that you've been going out with for a long period of time, let's say 2 years, how would you react if they magically turned into the opposite sex. I'm not just talking organ wise. I mean it would be like they'd been that gender since they were born. They for the most part still have the same personality, same memories, and they feel the same way about you. Would you still consider this person to be your significant other, or would you ditch them?

I think it's really hard to answer this question because none of us (I assume) have been in this situation. It's especially hard for someone like me, who has never been in relationship for that long. I think I would have to say that I would leave that person. To me looks are definitely not the most important part of a person, but I simply don't find men attractive. I think I could still enjoy hanging out with this person, talking to them, etc, but sex would probably never happen, even if it's happened in the past. Again, this is really tough for me to answer, but based on what I feel right now (with no experience) I don't see how the relationship would work out.

[Human]

no idea what you mean really... it would probably be better to say they admitted having a sex change when they were young

i'd probably leave though

[ackmedsgirl666]

i completely and totally understand
although at the time me and my ex werent dating anymore... i went away for a few years and came back and my SHE friend was going by HE and well it kind of hurt.,. and was hard to accept but once i wrapped my finger around it i soon realized he was still the same person with the same personality.... same memories.. same everything justa different name.... i suport all transgendered couples... and singles

[Lost in the Echo]

Yeah, I feel the same way you do. I'm straight, so I the sex part would be weird for me.
Talking and hanging out with the person wouldn't be a problem though, I have several friends on here who are gay, and they're really cool, but I just couldn't be in an intimate relationship with someone of the same gender though, that would feel weird to me.

[project_icarus]

Firstly I have to say this.
There is a difference between sex and gender. One's sex is their physical characteristics (id est penis - had to be said), one's gender is their emotional identity as male or female.
Alright.
I can somewhat understand why somebody wouldn't want to remain in that relationship, but me personally, I would. If that's all that's different about them, I can see why I'd still be attracted to them and feel the same way. I don't see that changing.

[TigerBoy]

Yeah I couldn't enjoy the sexual side of the relationship if my boyfriend turned into a girl. I wouldn't stop loving him (her) but I don't get turned on by female sexual attributes. If he was already transgender F2M that wouldn't bother me in the least. Unlike this guy (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/belgian-ends-19-year-marriage-after-wife-comes-out-trans261112)

[CharlieFinley]

Ditch.

[Abyssal Echo]

Yeah I couldn't enjoy the sexual side of the relationship if my boyfriend turned into a girl. I wouldn't stop loving him (her) but I don't get turned on by female sexual attributes. If he was already transgender F2M that wouldn't bother me in the least. Unlike this guy (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/belgian-ends-19-year-marriage-after-wife-comes-out-trans261112)

I agree with ya Tigerboy

[Jess]

If that was the case, I would not see him/her as a different person, but I will not remain in a romantic relationship. I will still love him/her as a friend but as I have no attractions to females I wouldn't really want to be in such a relationship but I will still remain best of friends...

[FreeFall]

I'd still love him if he became female in all aspects, but I'd have to end the relationship. Females and what comes with them, let's just say I have no appreciation for the female body. The breasts, the vagina, the hips, the clit.. I love my own body but any other female body...no. There's a huge turn away for me. The menstural cycle, it's bad enough for me to go through it but I couldn't watch or deal with boyfrend turned female's cycle. I can barely stand my female friends on their cycles. I love the sexual relations with my boyfriend, I love his mannerisms. I love teasing him about how most males can't touch their elbows while girls can. In a girl's body, some of those mannerisms are liable to change. I love when he has stubble on his face and I can rub it. I love his deep voice. Girl's usually do not have deep voices, and most don't have stuble.

I'm probably sounding so shallow in this post. They're the same person just in another body, but it's not a body that I want to hold or be with. Their mind, personality, emotions and values, I cherish it all but as he is. And if he's a she all of a sudden, he's no longer as he is, he's as he was as a girl.

[MichaelJ]

of course you will still love them..but I fundamentally disagree with sex changes as its completely unnatural and one should be given guidance if they feel this way. Sorry if that offends anyone

[kenoloor]

of course you will still love them..but I fundamentally disagree with sex changes as its completely unnatural and one should be given guidance if they feel this way. Sorry if that offends anyone

Know what's not natural? An incorrect body. You clearly fail to understand the idea of being transgender. So until you have credibility on the subject, I would suggest that you piss off.

[project_icarus]

of course you will still love them..but I fundamentally disagree with sex changes as its completely unnatural and one should be given guidance if they feel this way. Sorry if that offends anyone

its completely unnatural and one should be given guidance if they feel this way. Sorry if that offends anyone

its completely unnatural and one should be given guidance if they feel this way. Sorry if that offends anyone

one should be given guidance if they feel this way.

No. Just no.
The only 'guidance' a trans-person will need is support. It's much like the theory that with respective 'therapy' can 'revert' a homosexual person to heterosexuality. You can't change that person. Besides, what Bradi has said is right. what's not natural? An incorrect body.

Eh, this probably won't change anything, but here. (http://www.glcs.org.au/pdf/Simply_Trans.pdf)

[Mortal Coil]

Since I'm a panromantic ace, I wouldn't care. They would still be the same person, in almost every way. And there's no sex life for that change to ruin.

[MichaelJ]

No. Just no.
The only 'guidance' a trans-person will need is support. It's much like the theory that with respective 'therapy' can 'revert' a homosexual person to heterosexuality. You can't change that person. Besides, what Bradi has said is right.

Eh, this probably won't change anything, but here. (http://www.glcs.org.au/pdf/Simply_Trans.pdf)

I disagree, homosexuality is natural while having a operation to make yourself something that your not, is not
im not quite sure of all the terms, but im talking about changing your sex

[MichaelJ]

Know what's not natural? An incorrect body. You clearly fail to understand the idea of being transgender. So until you have credibility on the subject, I would suggest that you piss off.

I do understand what it is. There are two possibilities that you actually are born into the wrong body e.g. incorrect hormones ect or you feel that your born that way but I think the person should accept who they are. I recently saw a program of a 6 year old saying they want a sex change, what kind of society is that? he probably doesn't even know what sex is.

Of course if a person is born with both reproductive organs one should od what's best for themselves but purely just changing it when your body is normal, I disagree with

[Harley Quinn]

I disagree, homosexuality is natural while having a operation to make yourself something that your not, is not
im not quite sure of all the terms, but im talking about changing your sex

So you think that it's okay to be gay, but not okay to want to be happy in your own body whether that requires you to change? Uhm. You're kind of contradicting yourself because at the end of the day, people are people no matter what they feel inside. If you aren't sure of what the terms are, how can you fully from a 'morally' correct opinion, you can't. You can't really say homosexuality is natural but say being trans-gendered isn't because technically they all fall under the same category. Some people are born into the wrong body, you can't say it's not natural unless you're actually going through it.

[kenoloor]

I disagree, homosexuality is natural while having a operation to make yourself something that your not, is not
im not quite sure of all the terms, but im talking about changing your sex

You might want to peruse this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128283) thread. It contains many of the stupid points you're making, all of which I have successfully (and extensively) refuted.

If that thread is tl;dr, here's some highlights

OP:
http://s10.postimage.org/s8803fo2h/Screen_Shot_2012_12_13_at_12_35_17_PM.png

My reply to OP:
http://s10.postimage.org/mrtxmsk2h/Screen_Shot_2012_12_13_at_12_36_45_PM.png

That should clear up your idiocy.

I do understand what it is. There are two possibilities that you actually are born into the wrong body e.g. incorrect hormones ect or you feel that your born that way but I think the person should accept who they are. I recently saw a program of a 6 year old saying they want a sex change, what kind of society is that? he probably doesn't even know what sex is.

Of course if a person is born with both reproductive organs one should od what's best for themselves but purely just changing it when your body is normal, I disagree with

Your use of incorrect language is a blatant display of your stupidity and ignorance regarding this topic.

[MichaelJ]

So you think that it's okay to be gay, but not okay to want to be happy in your own body whether that requires you to change? Uhm. You're kind of contradicting yourself because at the end of the day, people are people no matter what they feel inside. If you aren't sure of what the terms are, how can you fully from a 'morally' correct opinion, you can't. You can't really say homosexuality is natural but say being trans-gendered isn't because technically they all fall under the same category. Some people are born into the wrong body, you can't say it's not natural unless you're actually going through it.

of course all should be happy with their body, everyone should lead a happy life. I do know the details of different terms but confuse them sometimes. Science dictates who a person is to me, if they have the correct hormones and correct reproductive organs that is what gender they are. If they feel a different way there is nothing scientific behind it, its just what they believe so changing from what you scientifically are to something you are not (scientifically) cannot be seen as natural

now of course their are other circumstances but that is a completely different scenario

[MichaelJ]

You might want to peruse this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128283) thread. It contains many of the stupid points you're making, all of which I have successfully (and extensively) refuted.

If that thread is tl;dr, here's some highlights

OP:
image (http://s10.postimage.org/s8803fo2h/Screen_Shot_2012_12_13_at_12_35_17_PM.png)

My reply to OP:
image (http://s10.postimage.org/mrtxmsk2h/Screen_Shot_2012_12_13_at_12_36_45_PM.png)

That should clear up your idiocy.



Your use of incorrect language is a blatant display of your stupidity and ignorance regarding this topic.

thank you for the terms, so if I was being disrespectful. please read my reply to the other person as that shows what I believe. Reply if you disagree

[TigerBoy]

of course all should be happy with their body, everyone should lead a happy life. I do know the details of different terms but confuse them sometimes. Science dictates who a person is to me, if they have the correct hormones and correct reproductive organs that is what gender they are. If they feel a different way there is nothing scientific behind it, its just what they believe so changing from what you scientifically are to something you are not (scientifically) cannot be seen as natural

now of course their are other circumstances but that is a completely different scenario

Clearly you've never heard of the aphorism "never judge a book by its cover" .

Science shows that the psychology and biology behind gender dysphoria or GID supports the perception of the individual, i.e. that their physical gender doesn't represent their identity.

Thus if you genuinely are guided by science, you need to take heed of the facts you are being told.

[kenoloor]

of course all should be happy with their body, everyone should lead a happy life. I do know the details of different terms but confuse them sometimes. Science dictates who a person is to me, if they have the correct hormones and correct reproductive organs that is what gender they are. If they feel a different way there is nothing scientific behind it, its just what they believe so changing from what you scientifically are to something you are not (scientifically) cannot be seen as natural

now of course their are other circumstances but that is a completely different scenario

This (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html) is an article saying that there has been scientific evidence that, in the case of transgender individuals, their brain actually resembles that of the opposite sex.

Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751389)
Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803)
Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961)

If I have to, I will write VT's longest post ever explaining why you're an idiot for thinking such as you do. You purport to think only in scientific terms. I have just posted three scientific studies from a reliable source saying that being transgender is not a disorder and that it is actually a natural treatment for transgender individuals to be treated with cross-sex hormones and surgery (if chosen).

The more you respond in this thread, the more you are promoting your belligerence and ignorance. You are not thinking in scientific terms if you can't even correctly identify any correct terms.

[MichaelJ]

This (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html) is an article saying that there has been scientific evidence that, in the case of transgender individuals, their brain actually resembles that of the opposite sex.

Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751389)
Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803)
Click. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961)

If I have to, I will write VT's longest post ever explaining why you're an idiot for thinking such as you do. You purport to think only in scientific terms. I have just posted three scientific studies from a reliable source saying that being transgender is not a disorder and that it is actually a natural treatment for transgender individuals to be treated with cross-sex hormones and surgery (if chosen).

The more you respond in this thread, the more you are promoting your belligerence and ignorance. You are not thinking in scientific terms if you can't even correctly identify any correct terms.

No, I find that responding to this post increases my intelligence and provides a debate within a democracy, I might even change my view if I fully believe in what you are saying.

If their brain resembles one of their supposed to be sex then there is something scientific behind that sex change. Are you saying that all people who wish to have sex changes are like this or some, if so I still believe that those with NO scientific evidence behind it are wrong as I originally stated

[MichaelJ]

Clearly you've never heard of the aphorism "never judge a book by its cover" .

Science shows that the psychology and biology behind gender dysphoria or GID supports the perception of the individual, i.e. that their physical gender doesn't represent their identity.

Thus if you genuinely are guided by science, you need to take heed of the facts you are being told.

Yes
if there is scientific evidence proving a person to be 'born into the wrong body' then that person needs to make choices appropriate for them. What I am stating is that in circumstances their is no evidence pointing to this then it is wrong and they are misguided

[TigerBoy]

Yes
if there is scientific evidence proving a person to be 'born into the wrong body' then that person needs to make choices appropriate for them. What I am stating is that in circumstances their is no evidence pointing to this then it is wrong and they are misguided

I am not aware of ANY cases where people have been allowed to transition without a medical determination that this is the case. Are you?

Per your earlier point there is indeed evidence of pre-treatment brain differences in both physiology and function that is consistent with the expressed identity. Source 1 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html) Source 2 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)

I trust that settles your confusion.

[kenoloor]

No, I find that responding to this post increases my intelligence and provides a debate within a democracy, I might even change my view if I fully believe in what you are saying.

If their brain resembles one of their supposed to be sex then there is something scientific behind that sex change. Are you saying that all people who wish to have sex changes are like this or some, if so I still believe that those with NO scientific evidence behind it are wrong as I originally stated

It is impossible to speak for everyone within the transgender community, seeing as I am only one person within that community. However, in the studies I have cited (and many more besides), the majority of transgender folks have had their identities (as differing from their anatomical sex) scientifically validated.

[MichaelJ]

I am not aware of ANY cases where people have been allowed to transition without a medical determination that this is the case. Are you?

Per your earlier point there is indeed evidence of pre-treatment brain differences in both physiology and function that is consistent with the expressed identity. Source 1 (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html) Source 2 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)

I trust that settles your confusion.

Hi
there was no confusion in the first place, my stance has always been if there is no scientific evidence then its wrong , if there is its up to the individual.
Hm, im sure it happens in countries with no regulation, also I heard of a TV program of a 6 year old asking for one and I doubt there was any evidence into that

[MichaelJ]

It is impossible to speak for everyone within the transgender community, seeing as I am only one person within that community. However, in the studies I have cited (and many more besides), the majority of transgender folks have had their identities (as differing from their anatomical sex) scientifically validated.

Hi, I understand of course
Well I agree with you that they should be allowed a sex change or what ever suites them but I believe some sort of analysis into each patient should be conducted to verify the findings from the research and to assist the individual
Thanks for all the information and sorry if I've upset you with my initial impression

[Zenos]

If you really love them then you'll accept them and stay with them! So if my significant other turenbd in to a girl i'd still date them!

[kenoloor]

Hi
there was no confusion in the first place, my stance has always been if there is no scientific evidence then its wrong , if there is its up to the individual.
Hm, im sure it happens in countries with no regulation, also I heard of a TV program of a 6 year old asking for one and I doubt there was any evidence into that

There actually is evidence that children will vocalize their identities at early ages and that allowing them to continue through what is considered the "wrong puberty" can be very damaging. Here (http://www.ementalhealth.ca/Ottawa-Carleton/Transgendered-Children-and-Youth-Information-for-Parents-and-Caregivers/index.php?m=article&ID=8888) is another source talking about transgender individuals who are younger.

Hi, I understand of course
Well I agree with you that they should be allowed a sex change or what ever suites them but I believe some sort of analysis into each patient should be conducted to verify the findings from the research and to assist the individual
Thanks for all the information and sorry if I've upset you with my initial impression

There are extensive requirement that one must meet before going through with any surgery or hormones. Perusing this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery#Standards_of_care) might shed some light upon the requirements that must be met before surgery will be performed.

[TigerBoy]

Hi
there was no confusion in the first place, my stance has always been if there is no scientific evidence then its wrong , if there is its up to the individual.
Hm, im sure it happens in countries with no regulation, also I heard of a TV program of a 6 year old asking for one and I doubt there was any evidence into that

A child self-identifying as being trans at any age is quite reasonable, and they should be supported in that identity. While the imposition of even gender roles is questioned by a great many, imposition of gender identity feels like a human rights violation to me.

I agree there are some concerns with transitioning while the brain is still immature and the mechanisms behind gender and sexuality are not fully understood. If the science is at the point where we can make that determination with confidence, I don't see a problem, and in fact it would be desirable from a medical and psychological point of view that any surgeries happen at a young age.

Also, thank you for ultimately listening to people with an open mind.

[MichaelJ]

A child self-identifying as being trans at any age is quite reasonable, and they should be supported in that identity. While the imposition of even gender roles is questioned by a great many, imposition of gender identity feels like a human rights violation to me.

I agree there are some concerns with transitioning while the brain is still immature and the mechanisms behind gender and sexuality are not fully understood. If the science is at the point where we can make that determination with confidence, I don't see a problem, and in fact it would be desirable from a medical and psychological point of view that any surgeries happen at a young age.

Also, thank you for ultimately listening to people with an open mind.

you make a good point that i have not considered before, if it does result in damage of the child being born into the wrong gender and one is 100% sure I suppose something should be done

There actually is evidence that children will vocalize their identities at early ages and that allowing them to continue through what is considered the "wrong puberty" can be very damaging. Here (http://www.ementalhealth.ca/Ottawa-Carleton/Transgendered-Children-and-Youth-Information-for-Parents-and-Caregivers/index.php?m=article&ID=8888) is another source talking about transgender individuals who are younger.



There are extensive requirement that one must meet before going through with any surgery or hormones. Perusing this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery#Standards_of_care) might shed some light upon the requirements that must be met before surgery will be performed.

Hi, yes you also make a persuading point. I elive that if such can be verified for a child and they are certain a change can be done if the parent/child thinks its best to save them the trauma of having a wrong puberty. But you cannot simply just trust the child as their are certain psychological issues at that age

Merged double post. -Gigablue

[kenoloor]

Hi, yes you also make a persuading point. I elive that if such can be verified for a child and they are certain a change can be done if the parent/child thinks its best to save them the trauma of having a wrong puberty. But you cannot simply just trust the child as their are certain psychological issues at that age

Regarding identity, the child knows better than anyone else.

[MichaelJ]

Regarding identity, the child knows better than anyone else.

To me that's debatable. They are just discovering puberty and are learning an awful lot, lots of things can make them come to that decision. Although this may sound stupid it can come down to jealousy or simply not understanding life. Of course though their are genuine circumstances

[TigerBoy]

To me that's debatable. They are just discovering puberty and are learning an awful lot, lots of things can make them come to that decision. Although this may sound stupid it can come down to jealousy or simply not understanding life. Of course though their are genuine circumstances

I can see your point. If there was a way to determine they had key indicators of being genuinely trans, you'd presumably be happy for surgery (if medically appropriate) to proceed?

I'm thinking of things like brain differences that could be revealed by MRI scans etc.

[kenoloor]

To me that's debatable. They are just discovering puberty and are learning an awful lot, lots of things can make them come to that decision. Although this may sound stupid it can come down to jealousy or simply not understanding life. Of course though their are genuine circumstances

When you were six, was there any question in your mind that you were male?

[MichaelJ]

I can see your point. If there was a way to determine they had key indicators of being genuinely trans, you'd presumably be happy for surgery (if medically appropriate) to proceed?

I'm thinking of things like brain differences that could be revealed by MRI scans etc.

Yes, of course

When you were six, was there any question in your mind that you were male?

NO, but then one does not know entirely what 'male' and 'female' is. Questions always arise, like 'mummy, why don't I have ...., I want a ....'
as silly as this sounds every adult knows that at that age there are many questions and many I wants

Please don't double post. Use the multiquote button instead.-Gigablue

[TigerBoy]

Yes, of course

Right so your remaining objection is really around our certainty over the case of a very young child, which seems reasonable to me.

Now if the science of psychology is capable of reliably determining genuine gender dysphoria, I would argue we could still be confident that we were doing the right thing for that child's well being if we used that as a test to determine if surgery were ultimately appropriate.

[MichaelJ]

Right so your remaining objection is really around our certainty over the case of a very young child, which seems reasonable to me.

Now if the science of psychology is capable of reliably determining genuine gender dysphoria, I would argue we could still be confident that we were doing the right thing for that child's well being if we used that as a test to determine if surgery were ultimately appropriate.

Yes, or any individual for that matter. But as we've discussed before there are indications showing differences

[TigerBoy]

Yes, or any individual for that matter. But as we've discussed before there are indications showing differences

Cool. So I think we agree that there isn't any case where we should just be taking a child's word at face value in a knee-jerk reaction, and go pushing them into surgery. The sensible approach is to medically determine if they have GID (via psychology or physiology) before proceeding with any sort of treatment.

At the same time parents need to respect any child's expression of gender (be it gender roles or identity).

[kenoloor]

NO, but then one does not know entirely what 'male' and 'female' is. Questions always arise, like 'mummy, why don't I have ...., I want a ....'
as silly as this sounds every adult knows that at that age there are many questions and many I wants

There is a difference between saying "I want a vagina," and "I'm a girl." Being transgender is not characterized by a want of something (although there are many wants included in being transgender). Despite what many say, being transgender is characterized by the identity conflicting with the anatomy. Identities are established from a very young age, says common knowledge. That six-year-old may not have a vocabulary to say something along the lines of, "dearest mother, I am transgender because my identity is in misalignment with my anatomy." However, they are capable of expressing their identity (i.e: "I am a girl").

That being said, there are still many requirements which must be met before any individual can be treated with hormones or surgery. The individual is usually (almost always) interviewed by a psychologist or some other professional in the field to confirm legitimacy of the child's statements before any treatment is started.

The sensible approach is to medically determine if they have GID (via psychology or physiology) before proceeding with any sort of treatment.

"Gender Identity Disorder" is soon to be an obsolete term. It is being removed from the DSM-V as a psychological disorder, per the passage of it through the American Psychological Association.

[MichaelJ]

There is a difference between saying "I want a vagina," and "I'm a girl." Being transgender is not characterized by a want of something (although there are many wants included in being transgender). Despite what many say, being transgender is characterized by the identity conflicting with the anatomy. Identities are established from a very young age, says common knowledge. That six-year-old may not have a vocabulary to say something along the lines of, "dearest mother, I am transgender because my identity is in misalignment with my anatomy." However, they are capable of expressing their identity (i.e: "I am a girl").

That being said, there are still many requirements which must be met before any individual can be treated with hormones or surgery. The individual is usually (almost always) interviewed by a psychologist or some other professional in the field to confirm legitimacy of the child's statements before any treatment is started.
Hi
yes I agree, of course certain things said by a child must be investigated and try to find out if such things are true

[Ryhanna]

This is a hard question to answer honestly under hypothetical circumstances. I'd like to think that I would stay in the relationship, and I think that I probably would, seeing as I'm attracted more to personality than a person's physical features.

I'd feel horrible for leaving them, if I were to leave.