Is a fetus a 'human'?

[xXJust Jump ItXx]

Now really this subject comes up when you talk about abortion. Im a pro-choice person on it, Imma very strong womens rights supporter about it. And people always have different opinions on this. But in your mind, in science and biology... Do you believe a fetus, as a zygote and past that stage as a fetus is a literal human being? Or a baby should we say. Or would it not be, being it is still developing and not born and inside the uterus. I personally see a fetus, at a stage where it has a beating heart and organs developed to where they can do some work, it would be a human. But prior to a beating heart and all... Its a embryo, so would that be a actual human or could you consider it as such. Its not with defined features and organs arent developed to a stage where they can function. If youre at 15 weeks I recall it as when they can tell the gender of the fetus... You could in all truth say its your sister or brother. Its a fetus, it has sexual organs at that point and you know what it is! But really what would you consider the state if any where it turns into a human. Or would you, yourself call a fetus a human at all till birth.

[ackmedsgirl666]

yup a fetus is a human
doesnt matter if it looks like a half formed martian and doesnt have a heartbeat
its still a human being that in my opinion deserves a shot at life...

im against abortion and in my opinion i think in canada it should be made illegal because think of it this way there are several couples out there who would die to have kids of their own and would be more than willing to raise someone elses...
aborting babies digusts me and seems to be a big trend now a days
heres a though..

IF YOUR GONNA FUCKING HAVE SEX AND DONT WANT BABIES USE A GODDAMN CONDOM!!!!!

[workingatperfect]

I consider it a human once it goes from a zygote to an embryo (which is when it attaches itself to the uterine wall and begins growing). It may not have a beating heart and all that stuff yet, but if I was pregnant, I would consider it my child from that point on, not just some thing inside me.

[Lost in the Echo]

Yeah, I consider anything with a pulse/hearbeat to be living, and anything that doesn't is dead, simple as that :)

[xXJust Jump ItXx]

I consider it a human once it goes from a zygote to an embryo (which is when it attaches itself to the uterine wall and begins growing). It may not have a beating heart and all that stuff yet, but if I was pregnant, I would consider it my child from that point on, not just some thing inside me.

Its always when someone says something else! :P But yeah I get what youre saying actually... The zygote thing, I say that because its a well mass of cells quickly dividing. Im still dealing with the idea of tumors right now and Im not to happy bout them but I mean when you find out you are pregnant, which is a few weeks after you conceive, once the sperm reaches the egg well the process starts of either a girl or boy forming. I really wanna change what I said there being yeah if you go molecular and all it IS a child even as a zygote!

[Mortal Coil]

I think that it becomes a human once it's born. It doesn't breathe on its own until then. The heart is the first organ to form in an unborn child, so by that definition a fetus without kidneys, intestines, fingers, eyes etc., would be considered a person. I don't think that's right.

[Taryn98]

I believe that a fetus is a human. That being said, I think abortion is morally wrong, but still should be perfectly legal. I don't think my morality on the subject should affect someone else's legal and personal beliefs and abilities to make the best decision for their body and set of circumstances.

[FreeFall]

I think once it's born, it's human. In my own personal opinion, when it's in the womb, it's just a parasite. It reqiures me to function, grow, and develop. It's attached to me, needs to me to live. Take me away, if it's not able to sustain itself without being attached to me, it will fail and die. My blood, nutrients, oxygen, I have to share it with the offspring.

If someone were to show me an ultrasound and ask what species that growing baby is, I'd say human. But to me, in my own personal view, it'll be a parasite until it no longer needs to be attached to me via cord.

[Mikedamaniak]

See, if they had condoms and abortions back in the caveman days, none of us would be here right now, so I go with pro life

[Abyssal Echo]

yes the fetus is human and in most courts is considered a living human being.

[ackmedsgirl666]

i was just stating my honest opinion by saying if you dont want a kid use a condom
and if you have a kid and dont wanna keep it give it up for adoption and someone negative repped me.. im tired of peuple giving negative rep for stupid reasons..so whoever did it just..... wow

[FreeFall]

See, if they had condoms and abortions back in the caveman days, none of us would be here right now, so I go with pro life
Jumping in here to state that abortion has been around since women discovered they could abort so pretty much the caveman days. It just killed a whole lot of them back then. Standing over fires, standing nude in ice, shoving specialized wooden blocks into the uterus and flinging themselves from tall heights not only aborted the fetus, but it often killed the woman.

[ArsenicCatNip]

A fetus is considered a "human" 6 months into pregnancy. This is why abortions are restricted 6 months and after, and I think this is because a fetus cannot survive on its own without the mother until like I said 6 months and later which if it were born would be considered early but could still live.

[CharlieFinley]

i was just stating my honest opinion by saying if you dont want a kid use a condom
and if you have a kid and dont wanna keep it give it up for adoption and someone negative repped me.. im tired of peuple giving negative rep for stupid reasons..so whoever did it just..... wow

Right, because condoms are infallible, right?

This from someone who is morally anti-abortion.

[Hypers]

Yes. It has human organs, is alive, therefore is a human.

[Mortal Coil]

Yes. It has human organs, is alive, therefore is a human.

But what about before the organs have begun forming?

[Hypers]

But what about before the organs have begun forming?
the fetus already has organs..... the embryo doesnt though.(at least wikipedia says so...)

[Mortal Coil]

(at least wikipedia says so...)


Oh, you :3

[kenoloor]

We just can't have enough of these damn threads, can we?

[Magus]

the fetus already has organs..... the embryo doesnt though.(at least wikipedia says so...)
Underdeveloped organs.

We just can't have enough of these damn threads, can we?It's part of the starter kit.

See, if they had condoms and abortions back in the caveman days, none of us would be here right now, so I go with pro life
Hey Grugug(the male)!

Mugamuga(the female)!

Let's Have sex, Grugug!

Yes! But animals skin first!

Yes, Grugug!

Yes, Grugug and Mugamuga Hate Ugly Kids!

Hey, Mugamuga! Let us tell everyone to not have ugly kids!

Okay Grugug! Good idea!

[Professional Russian]

We just can't have enough of these damn threads, can we?

Its VT Bradi think about it. Every thread is repetitive of another

[Jules97]

Of course it's a human...anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

[Human]

I wouldn't consider it a human until about two months along

[CharlieFinley]

Of course it's a human...anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

Would you care to, y'know, explain your reasoning?

[xXJust Jump ItXx]

I think once it's born, it's human. In my own personal opinion, when it's in the womb, it's just a parasite. It reqiures me to function, grow, and develop. It's attached to me, needs to me to live. Take me away, if it's not able to sustain itself without being attached to me, it will fail and die. My blood, nutrients, oxygen, I have to share it with the offspring.

If someone were to show me an ultrasound and ask what species that growing baby is, I'd say human. But to me, in my own personal view, it'll be a parasite until it no longer needs to be attached to me via cord.

Ive heard people say that before. Its really not a parasite, unless well you didnt plan for it but if you want it, again we change it here. But if you planned a pregnancy, or if you got pregnant suddenly and didnt plan it but kept the child... Its not a parasite being YOU, or you eventually decided to have it and let it be there. A parasite without the hosts consent feeds off it. But if you planned a baby, you decided you wanted it there so its not a parasite. Ticks, for example... No one wants em, they want you for your blood and they do you no good in any form. They are parasites in anyway you look at it.

[Gigablue]

It really isn't a person. It has no brain activity for most of the pregnancy, and very limited brain activity later on. It can't feel anything until at least 24 weeks, and possibly much later. Most importantly, the fetus can't live on its own; it's completely dependant on the mother. A fetus becomes a person to birth, in my opinion.

[Jules97]

Nope, it's pretty self explanatory.

[kenoloor]

Nope, it's pretty self explanatory.

translation: "I'm lazy."

[Gigablue]

Nope, it's pretty self explanatory.

Stating that your point is self explanatory isn't really useful in a debate. The whole point is to provide arguments as to why you are right.

[ackmedsgirl666]

Right, because condoms are infallible, right?

This from someone who is morally anti-abortion.

condoms are better used for unwanted pregnancies
and i am anti abortion

[Jess]

I consider it human after it becomes an embryo. But it's not a person till after it's born...

condoms are better used for unwanted pregnancies
and i am anti abortion

They aren't 100% effective.

[ackmedsgirl666]

well theyre better than just letting a guy blow inside you

[Sudds3]

Well technically life starts when the haploid sperm cell fertilizes the haploid egg and they create a diploid zygote, which means it has 2 sets of the 23 chromosomes. So yes i do believe that babies are humans and abortion is wrong.

[Twilly F. Sniper]

I am pro abortion however I do say it is a DEVELOPING human if it was from two humans.

[CharlieFinley]

well theyre better than just letting a guy blow inside you

You're right. I bet no-one EVER has used a condom and then wanted an abortion because she got pregnant anyway. I'm glad you think that you're smarter than all of the 1.5 million women who had abortions last year. Good for you.

[FreeFall]

Ive heard people say that before. Its really not a parasite, unless well you didnt plan for it but if you want it, again we change it here. But if you planned a pregnancy, or if you got pregnant suddenly and didnt plan it but kept the child... Its not a parasite being YOU, or you eventually decided to have it and let it be there. A parasite without the hosts consent feeds off it. But if you planned a baby, you decided you wanted it there so its not a parasite. Ticks, for example... No one wants em, they want you for your blood and they do you no good in any form. They are parasites in anyway you look at it.
I know that. I'm not speaking for everyone, simply myself. I already know I will not be able to maternally bond with my future children until they're in my arms and latched to my breast. In my personal feelings, I'll love it when it's here and I'll love it as it grows inside of me, growing from me. In my mind, as a parasite until they come out and no longer need to be attached to me like in the womb. I'm just going to be one of those women that can't connect until after the pregnancy, so how I'm seeing things is sadly skewed.

[jason123]

IS IT LIVING: YES (It has HUMAN cells)

Life is from the time of conception.

[Gigablue]

IS IT LIVING: YES (It has HUMAN cells)

Life is from the time of conception.

I hunk everyone can agree that a fetus is living, in that it has living cells, and that it has human cells, but that doesn't make it a person. It doesn't have the same abilities and thoughts as a person.

[CharlieFinley]

IS IT LIVING: YES (It has HUMAN cells)

Life is from the time of conception.

From a religious standpoint, I agree with you, and I certainly don't approve of abortion. I also don't believe in forcible conversion, though, and that means I also don't believe in forcible imposition of my religious beliefs on others.

Also, my toenails have human cells. Does that make living?

[Sugaree]

IS IT LIVING: YES (It has HUMAN cells)

Life is from the time of conception.

Human does not always mean person. The term "person" is pretty broad.

[Aajj333]

I do believe that a fetus is a human but I think there are positives and negatives to abortion

Positives: if someone is raped, they wouldn't have to be a parent
If a teen has a baby, it wouldn't have to live in a bad, unstable household
Negatives: that baby could grow up to be the president or the first man to walk on mars

[CharlieFinley]

I do believe that a fetus is a human but I think there are positives and negatives to abortion

Positives: if someone is raped, they wouldn't have to be a parent
If a teen has a baby, it wouldn't have to live in a bad, unstable household
Negatives: that baby could grow up to be the president or the first man to walk on mars

+1

Note that I think you should have the right to have an abortion. Note that I don't think you'd be right to do so.

[Jess]

I do believe that a fetus is a human but I think there are positives and negatives to abortion

Positives: if someone is raped, they wouldn't have to be a parent
If a teen has a baby, it wouldn't have to live in a bad, unstable household
Negatives: that baby could grow up to be the president or the first man to walk on mars

That's not a really good negative...the baby could grow up to do something really bad too.

[Aajj333]

Good point I never thought of it as that

[CharlieFinley]

Good point I never thought of it as that

Are you religious?

[TheBigUnit]

No, is an egg a chicken?

[Jess]

No, is an egg a chicken?

Thumbs up for this.

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=18797

[West Coast Sheriff]

Hell yeah!

[kenoloor]

Hell yeah!

Good job explaining your reasoning.

[Magus]

Good job explaining your reasoning.
Quite verbose, too. It took me a while perusing his reply.

[CharlieFinley]

I can't even tell what he's saying "hell yeah" to. Is he referring to the "is this a chicken" post, or is he saying hell yeah fetuses are human?

As a side note, I have that Molly Hatchet song stuck in my head. You know, the one that starts, "HELLLLLLLLL YEAH!"

Thanks! :)

[xXJust Jump ItXx]

Hell yeah!

Quite strait forward... No disputing your response haha.

[Sugaree]

Hell yeah!

Please, continue to grace us with your intellectual superiority.

[Alexwellace]

I think people should have the right to an abotition and moraly i think it isn't a person till it has a heartbeat. No scientific reason why, i just think thats a defining point where it begins to do stuff itself.

[Aajj333]

Are you religious?

I am not that religious

[Gigablue]

I think people should have the right to an abotition and moraly i think it isn't a person till it has a heartbeat. No scientific reason why, i just think thats a defining point where it begins to do stuff itself.

I've never really understood why the heartbeat is so special to people. It isn't really that important, since the heart has nothing to do with conscienceness. Also, the heart develops very early in pregnancy, often before people eleven know they're pregnant.

[GuillaumeBordeaux]

By definition it is a parasite on the mother. It feeds from her, breathes the oxygen she takes in, takes her nutrients and puts a strain on her system. I am pro-choice simply for the fact that no one should be able to tell a man or a woman what they can and cannot do with their bodies. Also, until the fetus is late in the 3rd trimester, it relies solely on the mother and cannot survive outside the womb. One thing I will say I do not agree with, however, is using abortion as birth control. You can get condoms at any health center in any city, for free. :L Use them yo.

[PrimedPenguin]

In my opinion once it turns in to a Embryo its a human. It doesn't need a heartbeat to be a human.

[FreeFall]

I've never really understood why the heartbeat is so special to people. It isn't really that important, since the heart has nothing to do with conscienceness. Also, the heart develops very early in pregnancy, often before people eleven know they're pregnant.
This also confuses me. I'm thinking about the brain dead who can have a heartbeat, usually when hooked up to a machine, but in the aspect of it, they're dead and won't be coming back.

[Silicate Wielder]

yup a fetus is a human
doesnt matter if it looks like a half formed martian and doesnt have a heartbeat
its still a human being that in my opinion deserves a shot at life...

im against abortion and in my opinion i think in canada it should be made illegal because think of it this way there are several couples out there who would die to have kids of their own and would be more than willing to raise someone elses...
aborting babies digusts me and seems to be a big trend now a days
heres a though..

IF YOUR GONNA FUCKING HAVE SEX AND DONT WANT BABIES USE A GODDAMN CONDOM!!!!!

Condoms don't always work you know.

[ProudConservative]

Scientifically speaking, a fetus is a parasite. Religiously speaking, a fetus is a human. I believe that once there is a heartbeat, the fetus is a human. Also, it's true that people would give a lot for a child because they can't physically conceive. Put the child up for adoption once you fund out you're pregnant and know you don't want the child. There is no reason in the world to take away possible potential. You never know what the fetus will be, either for the good or for the bad. It can go either way, but every time there is an abortion, potential is lost. Also, this is the Doctor Who in me coming out, it'll interrupt the time space continuum.

[randomnessqueen]

i dont like the term prolife, but im not for abortion on demand
i dont think its a human until its first breath, but i dont think that justifies abortion

[Backflipboy]

People aren't going to like my opinion, but I feel that it becomes a human at birth. I am pro-choice and I fully support abortion.

For a start, I feel that the life of the mother is above the life of the child during pregnancy. If there is a danger of the double effect then I feel that abortion is absolutely necessary.
If the child was to be severely disabled and unable to enjoy life then I feel it is more humane to have an abortion, rather than to have a child who lives in great pain.
If the child wouldn't have a good life, then I feel that abortion is acceptable. If the parents don't have enough money or ability to support the baby or if the baby wouldn't be loved then sadly I think abortion is acceptable.
If the mother was a rape victim, then I feel it is appropriate here too.

Of course, if I was a pregnant woman I would probably feel very different. It is an emotionally damaging experience, and all women who decide to go through with it should be supported.

[MichaelJ]

According to Judaism it isn't a child surprisingly until it is born. On the other hand all should be done to protect the child and give the CHILD choice and opportunity to succeed in life (unless of course it is threating the life of the mother)

[Texas warrior]

In my opinion it is not a human until it has a soul, I don't know when that is. and sense modern science can't figure it out ether we will know when it is human.

[ProudConservative]

In my opinion it is not a human until it has a soul, I don't know when that is. and sense modern science can't figure it out ether.

LOL, this one is funny, possibly the best post to this debate.

[deadpie]

In my opinion it is not a human until it has a soul, I don't know when that is. and sense modern science can't figure it out ether we will know when it is human.

hahahahhhahahha

Fetuses are uniquely different from born human beings in major ways, which casts doubt on the claim that they can be classified as human beings. The most fundamental difference is that a fetus is totally dependent on a woman's body to survive. Another key difference is that a fetus doesn't just depend on a woman's body for survival, it actually resides inside her body. Human beings must, by definition, be separate individuals. They do not gain the status of human being by virtue of living inside the body of another human being—the very thought is inherently ridiculous, even offensive.

Declaring fetuses to be legal persons with rights would generate countless legal and social dilemmas. Fetuses would have to become dependents for tax and estate purposes, be counted in official census-taking, and be subject to many other laws affecting persons. Wouldn't every zygote have to have a Social Security Number, as well as a Certificate of Conception? The sheer absurdity of this proposal reveals that society does not think of fetuses as persons in the normal sense at all, and would have great difficulty trying to treat them as such.

The biggest challenge in giving legal rights to embryos arises when trying to decide whose rights would take precedence when they conflict—the woman's or her zygote's. The idea that a grown woman's value and status can be equated with, or overridden by, a cluster of undifferentiated cells the size of the period at the end of this sentence is not only bizarre, it's insulting. We are treading on dangerous moral and legal grounds when we exchange a woman’s actual rights in favour of an embryo's theoretical rights.

[abp1999]

A fetus isn't a human, but it is a living organism. Though the argument is dumb since is a fetus worth more than a deer which my parents and I hunt.

[joeyjorulz]

Abortion is a subject that is dear to all of us. It is good to see the boys answering. I knew of girl who had aborted 5 times before she was 18...it was her birth control method

[Sephtyan]

Well, in order to decide whether a fetus can be considered a human or not, we have to decide what constitutes a human, or the worth of one.

We should be able to more or less firmly grasp the concept that it is human no matter what stage: IT has human DNA, it goes through the pre-birth developmental steps just like everyone else, and it's more or less determined to be a human when it gets out, preferably before the cognitive functions wake up and make the fetus wonder why it wants to be a human so badly, and why it wouldn't rather be a fish.

Now that we have figured out what a human is, I suppose that we'd need to determine the worth of a human. I think we can accept that different people have different worths; Martin Luther King Jr. was probably worth more than that punk kid in your class that always only talks about how good girls are in bed and seems to be benightedly ignorant of the general consensus around him that he's going nowhere in life. Some would say that this point is bunk since a fetus has, quite truthfully, not yet done anything like talk derogatorily of women or free an entire race of oppressed people, or that a fetus has the potential to be the greatest person who ever lived. I say this latter argument is equally bunk, since any fetus could have the potential to become the worst person in the history of the world; the next Hitler, if you would. I'd imagine that the potential to either save an entire race or slaughter another seems to even out to a man that does nothing in life (and possibly is a punk kid that talks derogatorily about women in class).

So that leaves us to deduce when a life actually starts to acquire some worth, since all they have is potential to be great or terrible, but no actual worth garnered from their contribution to society.

From here on out, this is my view alone.

I believe that a person's worth can be measured through how strongly he/she loves anyone or anything, how strongly he/she is loved by others, how much positive impact and/or negative impact they've had in life, how much they'd be missed if they disappeared, and finally, the sum of their memories.

A fetus, lacking any sort of capacity to think intelligently, or indeed do much beyond sit there quietly and try not to inhale, can't love anything as of yet. So far, 0 out of 5 points possible. If the mother loves the unborn child, then that's one thing; if neither she nor the father loves this particular infestation? Still 0 out of 5 possible points. If the fetus, being a surprising complication in the lives of those involved, say they aren't financially ready for another child, or their sanity is not yet ready for testing, and the news of the pregnancy has caused nothing but grief, then still 0/5. In hand with this last point, if all those involved would not be inconvenienced much by it's absence, then once again: 0/5. And lastly, an unborn doesn't physically have the ability to record any meaningful memories while still being in the fetal stage.

THUS, we now have all of the points to constitute a human with no worth. It may have all the potential in the world to become someone who has good memories and bad, people who love him, and who loves people himself, and has caused a strong impact in either direction of the moral scale, but as of yet they have no worth.

This is why I'm completely pro-choice, and I believe abortion should be a completely okay decision all the way along the pregnancy, until an abortion becomes a health risk for the mother.

TL;DR: Everyone deserves to have their voice heard. Go back three spaces.

[NORTH.KN16HT]

My belief is this:
A single cell is the smallest unit of life. Emphasis on th LIFE part!
So I believe it's alive and a human/fetus/zygote (whatever you refer to it as) is just as alive as we are. This may be drastic but I think abourtion is murder. And being that it was planned- premeditated murder.

Going back to the part about the cells:
You are made of trillions of living cells operating and functioning together. Same as a sperm and egg coming together.

Final point: the moment of conception is when a baby is alive and if you didn't want to have a child then don't have sex.

[Jess]

My belief is this:
A single cell is the smallest unit of life. Emphasis on th LIFE part!
So I believe it's alive and a human/fetus/zygote (whatever you refer to it as) is just as alive as we are. This may be drastic but I think abourtion is murder. And being that it was planned- premeditated murder.

What if the woman was raped? What if her life was in danger? What if it's a young girl? Is it murder THEN?

[havingfun]

A fetus is a human, and nothing less.

[NORTH.KN16HT]

What if the woman was raped? What if her life was in danger? What if it's a young girl? Is it murder THEN?

I think it's obvious that to murder means to kill.
So I've supplied the definition of kill : to deprive of life -cause the death of. And an abortion would be to DEPRIVE a child the right to live and becuase it was LIVE an abortion CAUSED THE DEATH OF IT...

Yes rape is a very unfortunate thing- and illegal... So yes let pretend a woman did get raped... But in this case she had no clue who the man was. He gets her pregnant.
Now guys who get raped (yes it can happen just less likely) dont have this amazing thing to catch the criminal(rapist) whereas women do. DNA. Think of the child as living proof. Think if the child as the being that brought you justice! Becuase the other half of this precious baby is the rapists DNA. Using it will be able to but behind bars and save another women from being raped. If your raped dont abort... Save another girl.

[Jess]

I think it's obvious that to murder means to kill.
So I've supplied the definition of kill : to deprive of life -cause the death of. And an abortion would be to DEPRIVE a child the right to live and becuase it was LIVE an abortion CAUSED THE DEATH OF IT...

Yes rape is a very unfortunate thing- and illegal... So yes let pretend a woman did get raped... But in this case she had no clue who the man was. He gets her pregnant.
Now guys who get raped (yes it can happen just less likely) dont have this amazing thing to catch the criminal(rapist) whereas women do. DNA. Think of the child as living proof. Think if the child as the being that brought you justice! Becuase the other half of this precious baby is the rapists DNA. Using it will be able to but behind bars and save another women from being raped. If your raped dont abort... Save another girl.

1. Abortion is not murder. Murder is killing a person, depriving the life of a person...a fetus is not yet a person. In any case, if you think it's murder, do you think we should bring every woman who has had an abortion to jail and be charged with murder?
2. A woman has every right to an abortion if she's raped. You don't make the decision to go on with the pregnancy; no one but the woman does. If I'm in that situation, I would most definitely abort. Why should I keep the baby? Even if you have a good point that maybe the child will bring a woman justice, it doesn't mean a woman should not be able to abort if she wants to. It's her decision to make.

You also didn't say whether or not it's murder if abortion is done to save the woman's life. Or if it's an innocent girl who's 13. Abortion most definitely should be legal in those cases -- and the woman or girl who aborts should not be seen as a MURDERER.

[Kriss41]

Asking that is like asking if an Eagle's egg is a bird or if it's just an egg.
Yes, a fetus, an embryo is a human. Once it's begun developing, it's a human. It may not have it's organs yet, it may just be developing a heartbeat, but that doesn't make the fetus any less human than you or me.

1. Abortion is not murder. Murder is killing a person, depriving the life of a person...a fetus is not yet a person. In any case, if you think it's murder, do you think we should bring every woman who has had an abortion to jail and be charged with murder?
2. A woman has every right to an abortion if she's raped. You don't make the decision to go on with the pregnancy; no one but the woman does. If I'm in that situation, I would most definitely abort. Why should I keep the baby? Even if you have a good point that maybe the child will bring a woman justice, it doesn't mean a woman should not be able to abort if she wants to. It's her decision to make.

You also didn't say whether or not it's murder if abortion is done to save the woman's life. Or if it's an innocent girl who's 13. Abortion most definitely should be legal in those cases -- and the woman or girl who aborts should not be seen as a MURDERER.

I am curious. Do you have a heartbeat? Once you have answered that in your head, does a fetus have a heartbeat? Once you've answered that, think about this.
Scientists did an ultrasound of a woman while she was getting an abortion. They watched as the little baby tried to get away from the tube tearing it apart. They watched the little child let out a silent scream. 'It was the most tramatic thing I've ever seen.' one scientist proclaimed.
Now let me ask you- would you try to hide if something like a giant vacuum were trying to tear you apart? But if it suceeded, would you feel it?
A fetus already has developed the sense of touch. It can feel this intruder trying to trying to hurt it. Like all people, it gets scared.
I personally have never liked abortion. My boyfriend's mother tried to abort him when she was pregnant with him, but when the docters refused her abortion (I think she was too far along or something like that) she tried to kill (yes-- KILL) him with drugs and alcohol. She didn't suceed, and he's not hurt in any way, but still. Do you think that's right?
When you say a fetus is not a person, what do you mean? Someone who can sustain their own life, or someone outside of a womb? Because there are many people who cannot sustain life, they are on various machines in order to live.
I agree, though, that a woman or young child who was raped or cannot support the child in their bodies should have the right. But if someone is just being lazy, someone who does not want to take care of a child and is not willing to deal with the repurcussions of their actions, do you think they deserve the ability to have an abortion? Like my boyfriend's mother. She aborted 3 (yes-- 3) other children before him, due to the fact that she just liked the thought of killing young children. Did she deserve the right to have them?
I understand if your beliefs differ from mine. Everyone has their own beliefs. But before you go saying that a fetus is not a human and abortion is not murder (Unless, again, rape or cannot be sustained), please look at the facts first.
Please don't double post. --Lyra

[Jess]

I am curious. Do you have a heartbeat? Once you have answered that in your head, does a fetus have a heartbeat? Once you've answered that, think about this.
Scientists did an ultrasound of a woman while she was getting an abortion. They watched as the little baby tried to get away from the tube tearing it apart. They watched the little child let out a silent scream. 'It was the most tramatic thing I've ever seen.' one scientist proclaimed.
Now let me ask you- would you try to hide if something like a giant vacuum were trying to tear you apart? But if it suceeded, would you feel it?
A fetus already has developed the sense of touch. It can feel this intruder trying to trying to hurt it. Like all people, it gets scared.
I personally have never liked abortion. My boyfriend's mother tried to abort him when she was pregnant with him, but when the docters refused her abortion (I think she was too far along or something like that) she tried to kill (yes-- KILL) him with drugs and alcohol. She didn't suceed, and he's not hurt in any way, but still. Do you think that's right?
When you say a fetus is not a person, what do you mean? Someone who can sustain their own life, or someone outside of a womb? Because there are many people who cannot sustain life, they are on various machines in order to live.
I agree, though, that a woman or young child who was raped or cannot support the child in their bodies should have the right. But if someone is just being lazy, someone who does not want to take care of a child and is not willing to deal with the repurcussions of their actions, do you think they deserve the ability to have an abortion? Like my boyfriend's mother. She aborted 3 (yes-- 3) other children before him, due to the fact that she just liked the thought of killing young children. Did she deserve the right to have them?
I understand if your beliefs differ from mine. Everyone has their own beliefs. But before you go saying that a fetus is not a human and abortion is not murder (Unless, again, rape or cannot be sustained), please look at the facts first.

Yes, I understand all your points. But the thing is, I'm not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice. I think the woman should make the choice - no one else - not the government, not some random stranger etc. I know how you dislike abortion because of what your boyfriend's mother did. But it's still a woman's choice.

What I mean when it's not a person -- it can't live outside the womb, it depends entirely on the mother, and it's not fully developed. The people who need to sustain on machines are still people because they're fully developed.

And think about it - it's better to keep have abortion legal and SAFE - instead of making it illegal and forcing desperate women to resort to dangerous methods.

[Kriss41]

Yes, I understand all your points. But the thing is, I'm not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice. I think the woman should make the choice - no one else - not the government, not some random stranger etc. I know how you dislike abortion because of what your boyfriend's mother did. But it's still a woman's choice.

What I mean when it's not a person -- it can't live outside the womb, it depends entirely on the mother, and it's not fully developed. The people who need to sustain on machines are still people because they're fully developed.

And think about it - it's better to keep have abortion legal and SAFE - instead of making it illegal and forcing desperate women to resort to dangerous methods.
I understand. I am pro-life. when I think of abortion, I think of what she did. I don't think they deserve a choice if they're being lazy like she was. But if they're in trouble or were hurt, they do deserve a choice, I agree.

How is it not a person? Two weeks in, the fetus has a heartbeat. A fetus has eyes and a mouth and everything by the time it's 3 months along. It just can't exactly live outside-- and really it could, just not safely-- because it's lungs, kidneys and things like that are not developed fully. When I was born, I had a condition that made it so one lung was not developed. Was I a person? I have both lungs now, they figured out what was wrong and I'm all fixed up. But then, was I a person? I could hardly sustain my own life.

I guess so. But killing a person, no matter were they live or how big or developed they are, is still not safe or right to me.

[Zenos]

I think once it's born, it's human. In my own personal opinion, when it's in the womb, it's just a parasite. It reqiures me to function, grow, and develop. It's attached to me, needs to me to live. Take me away, if it's not able to sustain itself without being attached to me, it will fail and die. My blood, nutrients, oxygen, I have to share it with the offspring.

If someone were to show me an ultrasound and ask what species that growing baby is, I'd say human. But to me, in my own personal view, it'll be a parasite until it no longer needs to be attached to me via cord.



Um so your saying that it can be fully formed and have all the signs of life,but until it posts out and makes it's grand entrances into thsi big old world it's not human??

[NORTH.KN16HT]

Yes, I understand all your points. But the thing is, I'm not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice. I think the woman should make the choice - no one else - not the government, not some random stranger etc. I know how you dislike abortion because of what your boyfriend's mother did. But it's still a woman's choice.

What I mean when it's not a person -- it can't live outside the womb, it depends entirely on the mother, and it's not fully developed. The people who need to sustain on machines are still people because they're fully developed.

And think about it - it's better to keep have abortion legal and SAFE - instead of making it illegal and forcing desperate women to resort to dangerous methods.

Ok so "pro-choice" so the chioces are to have and keep the baby or to have an give the baby up for adoption if you know that you can not give it the best possible life(or just don't want to) there are countless couples who can't have a child. Think about that... A woman desperately wanting a child but can physically have one on her own. How devistated one must feel every time she hears screaming in a restaurant or sees any infant or pregnant woman around town. Adoption solve 2 problems.
And yes the feats is a human it's in it's genetic code just as its in ours. And addressing your criteria of being "human" : cant survive out side the womb and is dependent on the mother makes it not a human then I gues every child under the age of 18 isn't a human either. Sure we're not in a womb but were in our parent's house, and we can't survive out of that- you can't do anything till your 18. And a 1 day old healthy, planned, and delivered baby still depends on its mother. It can't make its meals or groom his/herself... So I guess you and I are some other creature.... ( I wonder if we can fly too!! )

Ok and yes I did not address if the child could be cuasing harm on the pregnant mother. So the solution would be to allow the baby to develope as far as possible untill becoming a threat to the mother and then have a C - section. There is technology today that can greatly improve the life expectancy of premature babies. At least give the child a chance! How would you feel if you were never even give a chance.

So yes Pro-Chioce : 1) keep or 2) put up for adoption where the child can have a better shot at life if the mother isn't able to.

And abortion is safe now just because it becomes illigal doesn't make it any less safe. Drugs are just as dangerous before passing a law as they are afterward. Now abortion can be dangerous today if preformed by an uncertified dr. After a law is passed only the uncertified dr. Would continue to conduct abortions ( if isnt arrested ). The uncertified abortion is just as dangerous as before. A piece of paper isn't going to change That. And I'd like to also state that abortion may have low risks but every hospital operation has risked and there's always a bit of danger involved.

[Dooby the potato god]

Two things:

1) A fetus is a human.

2) This thread isn't about abortion! Jeeeez.

[Jess]

Ok so "pro-choice" so the chioces are to have and keep the baby or to have an give the baby up for adoption if you know that you can not give it the best possible life(or just don't want to) there are countless couples who can't have a child. Think about that... A woman desperately wanting a child but can physically have one on her own. How devistated one must feel every time she hears screaming in a restaurant or sees any infant or pregnant woman around town. Adoption solve 2 problems.
And yes the feats is a human it's in it's genetic code just as its in ours. And addressing your criteria of being "human" : cant survive out side the womb and is dependent on the mother makes it not a human then I gues every child under the age of 18 isn't a human either. Sure we're not in a womb but were in our parent's house, and we can't survive out of that- you can't do anything till your 18. And a 1 day old healthy, planned, and delivered baby still depends on its mother. It can't make its meals or groom his/herself... So I guess you and I are some other creature.... ( I wonder if we can fly too!! )

Ok and yes I did not address if the child could be cuasing harm on the pregnant mother. So the solution would be to allow the baby to develope as far as possible untill becoming a threat to the mother and then have a C - section. There is technology today that can greatly improve the life expectancy of premature babies. At least give the child a chance! How would you feel if you were never even give a chance.

So yes Pro-Chioce : 1) keep or 2) put up for adoption where the child can have a better shot at life if the mother isn't able to.

No. Pro-choice as in the WOMAN MAKES THE CHOICE. The woman should have the choice. She makes the choice - not you, not the government, not a strange.

It's better to have safe, legal abortion, than unsafe, illegal ones in a dark alley.

There is technology today that can greatly improve the life expectancy of premature babies. At least give the child a chance!

The 'rights' of the fetus does not trump the rights of the woman. If the baby has no chance of surviving anyways, there's no point in denying the woman abortion if it's slowly killing her.

Ok and yes I did not address if the child could be cuasing harm on the pregnant mother. So the solution would be to allow the baby to develope as far as possible untill becoming a threat to the mother and then have a C - section. There is technology today that can greatly improve the life expectancy of premature babies. At least give the child a chance! How would you feel if you were never even give a chance.

How would I feel if I were never give the chance? Nothing. I wouldn't even exist.

EDIT: Anyways, I'm done here. This thread isn't for debating about abortion after all...so I'll stop here. Sorry, mods.

[NORTH.KN16HT]

A note to Jess:
Only 1or2 out of 1000 rapes result in a pregnancy... So it's HIGHLY unlikely to say : what if she was raped as got pregnant!! Yes 2/1000 what is that 1%??

So in your argument we should allow abortion for those cases... So 1% of the time is it truly needed??

http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/rape-pregnancies-are-rare-461

And the 1% are the lucky ones who can catch and make a conviction on the rapist. ( as I've said in earlier posts about DNA technology.

And yes THE WOMAN WOULD HAVE THE CHIOCE OF PUTTING THE CHILD UP FOR ADOPTION!

Please do not double post. --Lyra

[Gigablue]

I understand. I am pro-life. when I think of abortion, I think of what she did. I don't think they deserve a choice if they're being lazy like she was. But if they're in trouble or were hurt, they do deserve a choice, I agree.

So basically a fetus created as a result of rape or other traumatic circumstances is less of a person than one created normally. Either that or the sole point of making the woman carry the fetus to term is to punish her. If you think all fetuses are human, why make any exceptions?

How is it not a person? Two weeks in, the fetus has a heartbeat. A fetus has eyes and a mouth and everything by the time it's 3 months along. It just can't exactly live outside-- and really it could, just not safely-- because it's lungs, kidneys and things like that are not developed fully. When I was born, I had a condition that made it so one lung was not developed. Was I a person? I have both lungs now, they figured out what was wrong and I'm all fixed up. But then, was I a person? I could hardly sustain my own life.

Two weeks in the fetus doesn't have a heartbeat. In fact, the heart hasn't even started to develop. It is still an embryo, only just divided into the germ layers. A two week old embryo is smaller than a kidney bean, and has no recognizable human features.

At three months, the fetus has more recognizable features, but that is irrelevant. Does a person suddenly become less human if they lose their facial features?

The fetus doesn't have a chance of being able to live on its own until week 24, and even then, it has a high risk of death.

If a child is born with some underdeveloped organs, they are still a person. The main difference is that the child isn't dependant on the body of another person to live, while the fetus is. Therefore the mother's rights trump those of the fetus, while for a child, their rights are paramount.

[Green Arrow]

I'm not too sure if I'm honest. It is a human because it was made by two humans and it is going to live as a human. But it could be said that it's like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. I just don't know to be honest.

[IAMWILL]

Yes, a fetus is a human. Why?

A) It is a genetically unique human being. It has a gender (just because the sex organs haven't developed yet, doesn't mean it doesn't already have a gender). Fetuses don't develop into anything other than a human being, so calling it a parasite or "blob of tissue" is incorrect.
B) It is alive. Fetus' metabolize nutrients and grow. It will continue to do so its whole life, and will be able to reproduce in about 13 years.

People use development and dependency a lot as reasons why its is okay to kill a human being. A common argument is "It cannot survive outside the mothers womb, therefore it is not human." Yes, the the fetus is entirely dependent on its mother. But so is a newborn. Even at 17, I'm dependent on others. Dependency lessens with age (well until you're too old to take care of yourself), but it does not change the value of a life, or make a fetus or baby "less human". Same goes for development. I was no less of a human at age 12 than I am now, just because I couldn't reproduce and I was smaller in stature. Same goes for when I was a newborn, and when I was an unborn. I have been me since conception, I was never something other than a human being. There wasn't a day when I suddenly turned from blob of tissue to human.

[Kriss41]

So basically a fetus created as a result of rape or other traumatic circumstances is less of a person than one created normally. Either that or the sole point of making the woman carry the fetus to term is to punish her. If you think all fetuses are human, why make any exceptions?



Two weeks in the fetus doesn't have a heartbeat. In fact, the heart hasn't even started to develop. It is still an embryo, only just divided into the germ layers. A two week old embryo is smaller than a kidney bean, and has no recognizable human features.

At three months, the fetus has more recognizable features, but that is irrelevant. Does a person suddenly become less human if they lose their facial features?

The fetus doesn't have a chance of being able to live on its own until week 24, and even then, it has a high risk of death.

If a child is born with some underdeveloped organs, they are still a person. The main difference is that the child isn't dependant on the body of another person to live, while the fetus is. Therefore the mother's rights trump those of the fetus, while for a child, their rights are paramount.

I am sorry you do not agree. I do not wish to pursue this anymore. It's not that I'm 'chickening' out, as it where, but rather that you are making me veel very uncomfortable. I was born very much premature and almost died. I've had friends (more than just my boyfriend) who's parents felt they just shouldn't have to have the responcibility, and tried to abort them, when they couldn't do so.
If you feel abortion is fine, good and dandy for you. Personally, unless they seriously CANNOT take care of the child, they shouldn't be able to. You can pursue me all you want, but I do have the right to ignore you.

Good day.

Yes, a fetus is a human. Why?

A) It is a genetically unique human being. It has a gender (just because the sex organs haven't developed yet, doesn't mean it doesn't already have a gender). Fetuses don't develop into anything other than a human being, so calling it a parasite or "blob of tissue" is incorrect.
B) It is alive. Fetus' metabolize nutrients and grow. It will continue to do so its whole life, and will be able to reproduce in about 13 years.

People use development and dependency a lot as reasons why its is okay to kill a human being. A common argument is "It cannot survive outside the mothers womb, therefore it is not human." Yes, the the fetus is entirely dependent on its mother. But so is a newborn. Even at 17, I'm dependent on others. Dependency lessens with age (well until you're too old to take care of yourself), but it does not change the value of a life, or make a fetus or baby "less human". Same goes for development. I was no less of a human at age 12 than I am now, just because I couldn't reproduce and I was smaller in stature. Same goes for when I was a newborn, and when I was an unborn. I have been me since conception, I was never something other than a human being. There wasn't a day when I suddenly turned from blob of tissue to human.

Will, I agree with you. You have your mind set right, and I like that.
I agree 100%


Please use the edit or multi quote buttons instead of double posting. -StoppingTime.

[Macman11]

yes it is it does eat its own food and have its own heart beat

[kayleethegray]

A fetus changes to a human baby in my mind when the pregnancy goes into the second trimester.

[HumbleMuffin]

I do not think a fetus is human. It doesn't matter that it's alive or has our DNA- it doesn't think, and can't survive on it's own. The most key point of being human is that it can think.
If you've read Orson Scott Card's "Speaker for the Dead", babies are basically Djur (http://ansible.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness).

[irishguy123]

I view a fetus as being human but this thread is not for discussing abortion and pro life or pro choice as that was not what was asked so for that reason we should not be discussing it. If anyone wants to, you should make a thread on abortion and then we can talk about it!

[IAMWILL]

I do not think a fetus is human. It doesn't matter that it's alive or has our DNA- it doesn't think, and can't survive on it's own. The most key point of being human is that it can think.
If you've read Orson Scott Card's "Speaker for the Dead", babies are basically Djur (http://ansible.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness).

I will repost my previous post in this thread to argue your points.

People use development and dependency a lot as reasons why its is okay to kill a human being. A common argument is "It cannot survive outside the mothers womb, therefore it is not human." Yes, the the fetus is entirely dependent on its mother. But so is a newborn. Even at 17, I'm dependent on others. Dependency lessens with age (well until you're too old to take care of yourself), but it does not change the value of a life, or make a fetus or baby "less human". Same goes for development. I was no less of a human at age 12 than I am now, just because I couldn't reproduce and I was smaller in stature. Same goes for when I was a newborn, and when I was an unborn. I have been me since conception, I was never something other than a human being. There wasn't a day when I suddenly turned from blob of tissue to human.

[HumbleMuffin]

I will repost my previous post in this thread to argue your points.

People use development and dependency a lot as reasons why its is okay to kill a human being. A common argument is "It cannot survive outside the mothers womb, therefore it is not human." Yes, the the fetus is entirely dependent on its mother. But so is a newborn. Even at 17, I'm dependent on others. Dependency lessens with age (well until you're too old to take care of yourself), but it does not change the value of a life, or make a fetus or baby "less human". Same goes for development. I was no less of a human at age 12 than I am now, just because I couldn't reproduce and I was smaller in stature. Same goes for when I was a newborn, and when I was an unborn. I have been me since conception, I was never something other than a human being. There wasn't a day when I suddenly turned from blob of tissue to human.

My views hinge less on the development of the child and the ability to be sustain itself, and more on the ability to think.
At seventeen, you can obviously think. At twelve, you can obviously think. Same goes for everything until about the age of one. This area's a bit of a grey-zone, really, as well as the third trimester. I can't claim enough medical knowledge to know when it thought begins to form, however.

I would say that I have not been me since conception. A blob of tissue used in a lab is the same amount of human as I was- That is, not at all.

[Gigablue]

People use development and dependency a lot as reasons why its is okay to kill a human being. A common argument is "It cannot survive outside the mothers womb, therefore it is not human." Yes, the the fetus is entirely dependent on its mother. But so is a newborn. Even at 17, I'm dependent on others. Dependency lessens with age (well until you're too old to take care of yourself), but it does not change the value of a life, or make a fetus or baby "less human".

The key difference is that while a newborn is dependant on someone to care for it, the fetus is solely dependant on the mother. No one else can take over for the mother, while a baby can be cared for by anyone.

A fetus should have some rights, and has many human attributes, but is, crucially, less human that the mother, as it lacks the ability to think and feel. A newborn also lacks many of these characteristics, but there is no one whose rights overrule its rights, therefore has the same rights as a human.

Same goes for development. I was no less of a human at age 12 than I am now, just because I couldn't reproduce and I was smaller in stature. Same goes for when I was a newborn, and when I was an unborn. I have been me since conception, I was never something other than a human being. There wasn't a day when I suddenly turned from blob of tissue to human.

You started out as a single cell. I don't see how you can call that a human. Think about everything it means to be human, and ask yourself if a zygote has any of those traits.

There wasn't a day when you suddenly became human, it was a gradual process. You started as a zygote, and gradually transformed into a person.

[Sugaree]

Looking back on this thread, I think what we all seem to forget is what the definition of a "human" really is. It's a subjective thing, but here's something interesting. The heart is one of the very first organs to develop in the fetus, and sonograms have proven that one can hear the heart audibly "beat" at six to eight weeks into term.

The one organ we need to live in the first place is what? The heart. Now, looking at how early the heart develops and how sonograms can enable us to hear it beating early in pregnancy, is that not a human life? Animals have hearts that beat, so are they also not liable to be under this definition as well? No, because humans have a basic understanding of right and wrong (again, a subjective thing), so you can't call a dog or cat "human" because it has a beating heart.

What I'm conveying is simple: before you say yes or no to this thread's question, ask yourself first what the definition of a human is. Don't look it up in a dictionary, think about it for a while. Is a fetus human when it has a heart beat? When the brain develops? When its been taken to term? For me, it's simple enough to see that a human is any creature with a basic understanding of right and wrong which has a heart beat and functional mind. You can still call a fetus a parasitic presence in the womb, but the heart beat is an independent thing from the woman's nourishment.

[Horizon]

I honestly feel it has the potential to be a human, just like a chicken's egg, has the potential to be a Chicken.

Because we all know there is the chance of a miscarriage.

[CharlieFinley]

So basically a fetus created as a result of rape or other traumatic circumstances is less of a person than one created normally. Either that or the sole point of making the woman carry the fetus to term is to punish her. If you think all fetuses are human, why make any exceptions?


That's a common argument held up by pro-choicers to allow them to level the accusations of slut-shaming, but it just doesn't hold water.

Actions have consequences, even unintentional actions. This is a fact of the world, and it is a fact of the law. Your level of responsibility towards a person is less, legally speaking, if he breaks into your house than if you lock him in your bedroom.

The concession for rape made by some pro-lifers is not some some super-secret conspiracy to punish sluts, and it's ridiculous of you to pretend that it is. It is, instead, a concession made in an attempt to save as many fetuses as possible in the knowledge that a law that doesn't have a rape exception will not be passed.

Stop it with the red herring. I don't even like fish.

[WalkingOnDisaster]

Yeah, I believe a fetus is a human. But that's only due to this long, extensive movie I watched a long time ago and saw the fetus form. Even when it doesn't have arms or legs, it has a little beating heart...
I don't know how many people agree, but I do believe it's a person.

[Jess]

http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=18797

[georgiamay]

Just by looking at the title it was clear this would turn into an abortion debate, even though that wasn't what was being asked.

A fetus is a life, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "human," with the same rights as newborns/people. Whether or not something can be considered human is completely subjective. The only reason we consider ourselves to be human is because of a concept that has been put in place by other humans (I'm not saying this makes the idea of species invalid, I'm just saying that even something as basic as this was put in place by someone's perception).

If we assume a fetus is a human because of objective scientific fact, we are making a huge leap. Neither medicine or law have a consensus on this issue, and they probably never will because it's so subjective and unscientific. We can have our own opinions on whether or not it can be considered human, but we can't universalise this opinion because there's absolutely no way of proving it.

[CharlieFinley]

image (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=3005&pictureid=18797)

Your oh-so-clever image fails miserably, because that's a picture of a zygote, not a fetus.

[Jess]

I know that, I'm just posting it because some people believe the zygote is a person (or has rights like a human/person)

[CharlieFinley]

I know that, I'm just posting it because some people believe the zygote is a person (or has rights like a human/person)

... why? A shit-ton of zygotes are aborted naturally. If those are people, then God had one fucked-up plan. Not that I'm even of the opinion that the one Biblical passage used against abortion holds water, but whatever.

[Jess]

I don't know. But I've seen some pro-life people who believe that. That's all...