Gay Marriage in the U.S.

[Fester Jester]

Since this is kind of more like an opinion thing im not sure if this should go here.. But.. Anyways
I know theres a lot of talk about gay marriage and what not, in the U.S. What do you believe is morally and/or traditionally right or wrong?
Personally, i believe a marriage should be between a man and woman.. Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against gays! I think its wonderful to spend your life with someone you love. But not as a homosexual married couple. I was raised as a Christian, so thats not only what i've been taught but also what i, after giving it great thought and debating what i thought, i do believe a marriage should be kept traditional..

Sorry if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.

[edsheeran]

I believe that if two people love each other they should be together no matter what. (:

[TigerBoy]

Traditions are just things that have been done a long time, and it doesn't make them automatically good or bad things, and certainly not the only way of doing things.

The church has changed its official position on marriage many times already in history, so there is plenty of precedent to change it again ...

The church didn't require that it had any involvement in marriage (priest and witnesses) until 1563 , and that only lasted until an act of law in 1863 in the UK made it clear that the country didn't require the church's involvement.

From http://rationalreasons.blogspot.co.uk/2005/05/brief-history-of-marriage.html I found the following interesting facts:

"...same sex marriage was recognized in ancient Rome and this extended into the Christian period (see Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality by John Boswell, University of Chicago Press, 1980). There is even evidence for Church-sanctioned same sex unions in ancient times, including a liturgy (see Same-sex Unions in Premodern Europe, Villard Press, 1994)"

Christianity also has some terrible reasons for marriage bible law, including that a raped virgin must marry her rapist, a widow who hasn't borne a son has to marry her brother in law ... and more.

Marriage is NOT unique to Christianity, it existed before and in other religions and cultures. It is not up to Christians to impose their personal preference on the rest of society.

If you have "nothing against gays" then you should support any discriminatory treatment against them : not allowing gay people to marry is discriminatory.

[Azunite]

As a citizen of the US, I would want it to be allowed because there are surely a lot of gay people in the US and they shouldn't be lower than anyone.

As a governor of the US, however, I would choose a different approach. What would happen if a president would give Muslims rights? Yes, hardcore Christians wouldn't vote him anymore. The same thing goes for gay marriage. As a president, if you allow gay marriage, you will not achieve extra votes, but you will lose some. If you just leave the topic be, things will be neutral.

[Fester Jester]

The church has changed its official position on marriage many times already in history, so there is plenty of precedent to change it again ...

The church didn't require that it had any involvement in marriage (priest and witnesses) until 1563 , and that only lasted until an act of law in 1863 in the UK made it clear that the country didn't require the church's involvement.

From http://rationalreasons.blogspot.co.uk/2005/05/brief-history-of-marriage.html I found the following interesting facts:

"...same sex marriage was recognized in ancient Rome and this extended into the Christian period (see Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality by John Boswell, University of Chicago Press, 1980). There is even evidence for Church-sanctioned same sex unions in ancient times, including a liturgy (see Same-sex Unions in Premodern Europe, Villard Press, 1994)"

What church is this? Certainly youre not referringing to all Christain churches. Because thats not the case. "the Church" is not specific as to which one. There are countless different christain churches and not all of them feel the same way

Christianity also has some terrible reasons for marriage bible law, including that a raped virgin must marry her rapist, a widow who hasn't borne a son has to marry her brother in law ... and more.

These reasons are not true to most churches in this day in time

Marriage is NOT unique to Christianity, it existed before and in other religions and cultures. It is not up to Christians to impose their personal preference on the rest of society.

Most christains do not "impose" their personal prefreance on society they may state their opinion, but never as an imposition on society

If you have "nothing against gays" then you should support any discriminatory treatment against them : not allowing gay people to marry is discriminatory.

Youre completely correct, i guess i made a false statement

[TigerBoy]

What church is this? Certainly youre not referringing to all Christain churches. Because thats not the case. "the Church" is not specific as to which one. There are countless different christain churches and not all of them feel the same way
Yep, this is very much about the history of organised Christianity . And since you mention it, there are countless different Christian sects and bible versions precisely because interpretations and opinions change all the time.



These reasons are not true to most churches in this day in time

Exactly - opinions and interpretations keep changing.


Most christains do not "impose" their personal prefreance on society they may state their opinion, but never as an imposition on society

Yes they do - Christian groups are on record pouring vast amounts of funds into political campaigns in the US, including to fight equal marriage.

There are many prominent Christians who are in support of equal marriage. One such is Jesse Jackson (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/09/12/us-reverend-jesse-jackson-has-no-problem-with-marrying-same-sex-couples/).

Essentially my point is this : being a Christian is clearly not a reason to be against equal marriage.

[Sleepy Raisin]

I'm Christian(well close enough) and i was also raised in a family that believed in traditional marriages, but i think it's alright for homosexual couple to get married. Also i agree with TigerBoy being a Christian is not a reason to be against equal marriage. I think that if two partners love each other they should have the right to be married and recieve the same benefits. Now im not saying that the federal government should force every state to allow this, because that wouldnt be right. It should be each states choice. But, thats my opinion, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and feelings

[Zarakly]

I am christian as well and I too have been brought up to not agree to the gay marriage. But that isn't necessarily my opinion. I believe that people should be allowed to be with whoever they love. The thing that I don't like is calling it "marriage" as I have that as a man and women. I think that they should call it something else. Not only would that potentially save a lot of fighting, it could also be good because then homophobic people would be able to have their own word. By the way, I heard the create a new word thing from a gay couple. They disagree that it should be called marriage, but agree to it being called something else.

[TigerBoy]

The thing that I don't like is calling it "marriage" as I have that as a man and women. I think that they should call it something else. .

"Equivalent but different" is not the same as "equal".

Rosa Parks had her transport needs met, but she wasn't treated equally.

[Zarakly]

That may be true, but gay marriage will not be accepted for many years. I think calling it something else will relieve some of the problems. In my state, we have had the gay marriage poll thing come up many many times and every time it is denied. They just keep recreating a new bill to approve it with it being denied every single time. Its annoying. If they decide to call it something else, then it might not go against many peoples beliefs and could potentially be more "acceptable".
What you are saying is what it happening right now. There are people getting married, but they still aren't treated equal. Thanks for that analogy as that is how it is now.

[TigerBoy]

In the UK we've had "civil marriage" for a while now, but the point is that again, it isn't quite marriage and it isn't called marriage.

So I think if the US came in with something with a different name, it would be seen as "good enough" and be unlikely to change. It might bring short term gains, but it completely misses the principle of equality and fairness that is at stake here, and would mean that gays would continue to be seen as somehow inferior to other citizens.

[Sir Suomi]

Since I'm from Nebraska, I've been raised with the concpet that gay marriage is wrong. While I do agree, if you truly love someone, you should be able to be happy with him/her, but when it comes to marriage, I just can't support it. Sorry, just what I've been taught.

[Jean Poutine]

Just give homosexual civil unions all the benefits of a marriage and be done with the damn "debate" already. What is there to debate?

The only difference between heterosexual and homosexual couples is the way they screw. Gay people fall in love, break up, laugh, cry, feel emotions in the same way heteros do. Marriage is unfortunately an institution with heavy religious over and undertones - how about we get rid of them?

There is absolutely no justification whatsoever to oppose gay marriage. Tradition? Rape is a tradition dating back to the caveman years when males went ooga booga and smashed females in the noggin with a wooden club then dragged them back to their caves to get some action. Should that be protected too?

Don't wanna see gays marry in your churches? Fine. However, there is NO reason for homosexual couples to 1) be unable to contract a civil marriage with a loved one and 2) have less rights and entitlements than heterosexual couples. Period. Marriage is nothing more than the recognition of a government (or a Church, but who cares) that those two people form a couple. It's okay for gay people to exist and make love and form bonds but it's not ok for them to express these things in a law-bound contract to obtain all the benefits of a couple as recognized by the State and opposable to all? What is this bullshit?

"Wrong because I was taught so"? Time to do a 180 and examine what you were taught, buddies, because it's horseshit. There's nothing morally wrong with marriage between a man and a man. If you think there is, nobody's forcing you to attend, so stop stifling perfectly decent people's happiness for "tradition". Priorities straight, people.

[Straight]

Gay people should be allowed marriage (Not civil partnership) in the US and the UK. Gay people still have an emotional bond between each other, and just because they can't have children from "natural" means doesn't mean they can't love each other

[wildog17]

Im all right with homosexual couples, but letting them get married seems morally wrong to me, it makes me want to puke.

[Noirtier]

I myself am gay, and I see nothing morally wrong with gay marriage or homosexuality in general. As far as the legality of gay marriage goes, yes, I want it to be legalized, but after studying the Constitution I think that it falls under the authority of the states to do so. I'm deriving this from the 10th Amendment, which states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Based on that, seeing as gay marriage was no issue when the Constitution was written and that it is mentioned no where in the Constitution as to who may deal with this issue, it seems that it would be up to the states (and as such the people) to decide whether to legalize it individually or not--as is happening now.

[Professional Russian]

Im not for it and im not against it. simply i dont care. just it to them so they stop complaining about it. i really dont care about. oh 2 men got married. so what they got married why do people have a problem with that.

[Zarakly]

I myself am gay, and I see nothing morally wrong with gay marriage or homosexuality in general. As far as the legality of gay marriage goes, yes, I want it to be legalized, but after studying the Constitution I think that it falls under the authority of the states to do so. I'm deriving this from the 10th Amendment, which states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Based on that, seeing as gay marriage was no issue when the Constitution was written and that it is mentioned no where in the Constitution as to who may deal with this issue, it seems that it would be up to the states (and as such the people) to decide whether to legalize it individually or not--as is happening now.

I would be fine with this if that is how it would stay, sadly, In my state, as soon as we vote and it gets denied, another bill is immediately created and ready to vote again. We have been voting on the same thing for a few years now and everytime it gets denied. I think it should be up to the states now too...

[Stryker125]

Seeing as marriage isn't a strictly religious practice, I don't see why it should be limited for strictly religious reasons. Some people say that it's just them expressing their religious freedom but not allowing someone the same rights as someone else because of a religious view isn't religious freedom, it's religious oppression, and isn't that kind of why the pilgrims left England in the first place? (There's supposed to be this thing called separation of church and state, but I'm no expert on that)

Also, like others said, being Christian isn't a reason to be against gay marriage. If you were taught that way, then that's alright I guess. But just because you were taught something doesn't mean it's morally right (or wrong).

Anyways, I'm not against it. I tend to side with Louis C.K. on this one: http://imgur.com/gallery/wEHkh

[Noirtier]

I would be fine with this if that is how it would stay, sadly, In my state, as soon as we vote and it gets denied, another bill is immediately created and ready to vote again. We have been voting on the same thing for a few years now and everytime it gets denied. I think it should be up to the states now too...

This is due more in part to the affect and lobbying power of the homosexual community on the government, however. I wish lobbyists, regardless of what they were lobbying for, did not have any place in government, but we exist with a flawed system of government, and I'm not sure if such would ever be able to happen. At this point in time, there are more important issues to deal with as well, but our government seems like it would rather ignore them and work on the issue of gay marriage--which honestly, compared to things such as foreign issues and the economy and social security, can wait.

[Zarakly]

This is due more in part to the affect and lobbying power of the homosexual community on the government, however. I wish lobbyists, regardless of what they were lobbying for, did not have any place in government, but we exist with a flawed system of government, and I'm not sure if such would ever be able to happen. At this point in time, there are more important issues to deal with as well, but our government seems like it would rather ignore them and work on the issue of gay marriage--which honestly, compared to things such as foreign issues and the economy and social security, can wait.

Yeah thats a good point, maybe we should just accept the gay marriage or not accept it depending on what the states vote this last time and then leave it at that. After that then perhaps we can start working on the other problems that is in our government. You know something else we could do to stop a lot of problems? Actually use the technology we have. We have technology to turn gasoline into vapors to power your car for 100+mpg...

[ArsenicCatNip]

I'm all for it, apparently it's legal in New York so that's good :) to me it's just a title. It won't strengthen or make a relationship better.

[Syvelocin]

Regardless of the morals and shit and that I myself am biased on the topic, Christians make up roughly a third of the population of the earth. One third. What about the other two thirds of us? You don't get to just claim marriage because it's in your ancient book of stories. Marriage exists in every culture and religion yet, while most cultures also believe it's for a man and a woman, generally speaking Christians seem to claim it for themselves as if it belongs to them and the decision simply should have nothing to do with Christianity, but with the government, as all marriage is about is the legal benefits. Now, if only the government wasn't biased...

[Twilly F. Sniper]

Gay people should be allowed marriage (Not civil partnership) in the US and the UK. Gay people still have an emotional bond between each other, and just because they can't have children from "natural" means doesn't mean they can't love each other
Plus, its a better thing as well, thinking about it. Less forests will be cut down for housing, etc. Gay marriage should be legal, I dont see why it should be different.

[Jess]

I think gay marriage should be legal. Marriage isn't supposed to be religious, and how in the world is two men or women marrying hurting anyone?

This pic defines it perfectly:
http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=4526&pictureid=26615

[Elysium]

Honestly, if you really wanted to keep it "traditional" it wouldn't quite matter because before Rome, and even within Rome, it was normal for men to marry men. In Rome, they started keeping quiet about such things because it was common practice in Greece and the Romans regarded Greek culture rather disdainfully. It originally had nothing to do with religion or the actual act itself being sinful. If you want to remain close to your religion and your ancestry, which I completely relate to, there are other habits you can keep that don't insult or hurt anyone else. I'm Jewish and I don't eat pork, but I don't deny others their right to eat pork in my company or otherwise.

I don't see any difference, at all. I don't see why a homosexual marriage is any different from a heterosexual one. I don't see why sexuality itself is such a big deal; I wish I had answers as to why certain people feel differently about others. If there was some scientific, genetic, definitive reason for it, I'd feel a lot more at ease. Marriage altogether is a little ridiculous to me, but I can definitely see why people would want it, and I can certainly picture myself getting married. It's just a reaffirmation of your love and commitment to someone (and more legal rights). If you wanted to keep "tradition," marriages would be arranged for political and financial benefits alone. Times change, and you can't always maintain tradition at the expense of others.

I don't see why all of this is such a big deal. I think the posts above me word my thoughts perfectly; I don't feel the need to add to any of that.

[MartyG]

I would not want anyone to be able to tell me that I could not marry a particular person; therefore I should not want to control who someone else can marry.

It's a personal choice; the business of the two consenting adults involved..and no one else.

Or; at least that's the way it should be.

[Abigballofdust]

I don't understand what Americans see as marriage. Where I live, you can marry in a church or in the city hall. Church marriages come with all the procedure, the mass before, the teachings on how to be a good husband/wife and all that and in my opinion should stay between a man and a woman because that's how the Church sees it. The church follows Bible beliefs and you cannot change that. It would feel stupid to get married in a church whose ideals go against you. Of course, you're free to ignore what the Bible says about homosexuals, but I prefer not calling myself a Christian than living my life in fear of eternal flames for liking the cock as opposed to the pussay or for shaving my beard or wearing clothes of different fabrics...
On the other hand, getting married in a city hall should be allowed to everyone. If a state rappresentative acknowledges my marriage with a woman, he should be able to do it with a male, because he follows no sacred book, but the law of his country, in my case a secular country.
To the OP: think about it, I grow up in an unsupporting family that does not like me as a homosexual, I find a boyfriend, family of course does not support it, we love each other for a long time but can't marry, can't have the same rights you and your wife have. Now, I get in a car accident and end up in hospital, in coma. My boyfriend is to me NOTHING. My parents can prevent him to see me, plus, if I die, since I have no final will, everything I have goes to my parents, since my boyfriend is legally nothing to me. Does that sound fair?
That is an extreme example, that's true, but it's the fastest way to explain you why you should support gay marriages.

Also, 300th post.

[PurpleReign]

I definitely think gay and lesbian couples should be able to get married. I've never understood why some hetero people really care so much.

Gotta love Stephen Colbert :)

http://cafewitteveen.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/rzmct.jpg

[nice]

I think that if they love each other there is no harm that can come from it they deserve to be happy we justhave to learn to accept change and this is coming from a huge ex homophobe

[Washtie]

If one man loves another man, one woman loves another woman. They should be aloud to get married, have a family ect.. People who are single minded and naive shouldn't make conclusions on gay marriage beccause they haven't been in the same positions as they have. Society should be able to accept what a person wants and respect their decision, I hope never a country should become like what the Ugandans make out gays to be.

[Eliza Snark]

Personally, i believe a marriage should be between a man and woman.. Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against gays! I think its wonderful to spend your life with someone you love. But not as a homosexual married couple. I was raised as a Christian, so thats not only what i've been taught but also what i, after giving it great thought and debating what i thought, i do believe a marriage should be kept traditional..

Question for you, OP. Some churches (Such as the United Church here in Canada, sorry I don't know any examples in the US) have a lot of ministers who are more than willing to wed same-sex couples. What do you say to those churches? Legally speaking, would it not be just as bad to bar them from practicing their religious freedom in accepting same-sex weddings, as it would be to force your church to accepting something against your beliefs?

And that question goes out to everyone who shares OP's opinion, I just won't go through listing every person in the thread.

You can believe whatever you like religiously, and I fully support a church's right to set their own rules and doctrine, but legally speaking, I fail to see any compelling reason to oppose same-sex marriage.

[NeuroTiger]

It could turn the world into a real havoc...

[TigerBoy]

One for all those using religion to justify their bigotry ...

A8JsRx2lois

[Sleepy Raisin]

Christians make up roughly a third of the population of the earth. One third. What about the other two thirds of us? You don't get to just claim marriage because it's in your ancient book of stories.

Okay first off, its not just Christians that believe marriage is for a heterosexual couple. So the other two thirds is made up of mostly other religions that believe the same thing about marriage. Also she was talking about in the US of A not the entire world. Attacking just the Christian faith is wrong. Fester Jester stated she was Christian but that wasnt the main topic.

Secondly, you may be Atheist, but please don't call the bible an "ancient book of stories" you may not believe every word in there but there are some that do(including myself) and its kinda disrespectful of that religon-to be more specific Christianity.

[nice]

I think that if two people in love just because they are two men or to women doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to get married. There are plenty of men and women out there who are married and don't even love each other and I can honestly say I haven't met one gay person who doesn't love their spouse.

[TigerBoy]

Okay first off, its not just Christians that believe marriage is for a heterosexual couple. So the other two thirds is made up of mostly other religions that believe the same thing about marriage. Also she was talking about in the US of A not the entire world.

So if by your own admission the OP is talking about the USA, then Christianity is indeed the main religion that we are concerned with in this discussion in that significant parts of that faith are seeking to influence something that doesn't even affect them. Why? Because Christians did not invent marriage as I already pointed out.

Attacking just the Christian faith is wrong.
Unfairly attacking the Christian faith is wrong. Objecting to its attempts to impose its views on others, and speaking up when you disagree with its views is absolutely the right thing to do.


Secondly, you may be Atheist, but please don't call the bible an "ancient book of stories" you may not believe every word in there but there are some that do(including myself) and its kinda disrespectful of that religon-to be more specific Christianity.
Respect is earned. Some Christians believe that gays should be put to death for example. Apparenty, since you believe every word in the bible then you do too. That doesn't seem terribly respectful of you, in fact I would say that is a very hateful attitude.

The bible is very much a collection of stories. I can only assume that you have not read it, but in the bible they are called "parables" and are an ancient method of passing on teachings. There are also parts that claim to be histories, and parts that claim to be magical visions.

If you believe in the literal word of the bible then perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you can believe all the contradictions it contains?

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)
Which is it, is god merciful, or does he bear a grudge?

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)
Was Jesus here to judge us or not?

There are loads of these by the way. I suspect you'd be better off reading the bible and making up your own mind what you believe.

[Sleepy Raisin]

Respect is earned. Some Christians believe that gays should be put to death for example. Apparenty, since you believe every word in the bible then you do too. That doesn't seem terribly respectful of you, in fact I would say that is a very hateful attitude.

Okay, i never ever said that i believed gays should be "put to death" nor do i believe that many many principals(especially in the Old Testament) in the bible are no longer in practice because times have changed dramatically. I said i believed every thing in the bible, not that i thought everything was morally right for this day and age.

The bible is very much a collection of stories. I can only assume that you have not read it, but in the bible they are called "parables" and are an ancient method of passing on teachings. There are also parts that claim to be histories, and parts that claim to be magical visions.

Its not just a collection of stories, its stories, lessons, teachings, and other things.
Assuming that i havent read the bible without knowing all the facts is unconventional. Many parts are proven by history not just "claimed" to be so.

If you believe in the literal word of the bible then perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you can believe all the contradictions it contains?

Quote:
"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

Which is it, is god merciful, or does he bear a grudge?

Firstly, you cut out a lot of these verses and took them out of context, you should never ever do that.
But, I'm going to try to explain this without being to confusing. God doesn't hold grudges, he is not a cruel God. The rest of Jeremiah 17:4 is:
"And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever. (Jeremiah 17:4 KJV)" verses 1-4 is a figure of speech. But more specifically verse 4 is saying that God is upset that Judah was trusting in flesh and blood(man) instead of God. The word "forever" is only for that age administration, not literally forever.

Quote:
And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)

Was Jesus here to judge us or not?

Again, taken out of context, and an uncompleted verse. I don't feel like explaining the bible to you, especially when, when you read the surrounding verses it answers your question.

There are loads of these by the way. I suspect you'd be better off reading the bible and making up your own mind what you believe.

Um, excuse me? I know exactly where i stand. I've read and studied the bible, I suggest you read the bible. Learn to not misquote, and read surrounding verses. It seems to me you made judgements of me with unsupported verses.

But, for topicality, this doesn't apply to gay marriage in the US, really..

[Jean Poutine]

Secondly, you may be Atheist, but please don't call the bible an "ancient book of stories" you may not believe every word in there but there are some that do(including myself) and its kinda disrespectful of that religon-to be more specific Christianity.

You know what?

A big fat fuck you.

We are as entitled to tell you that you are worshipping the Hebrew equivalent of a Grimm tale than you are believing all the stupid backwards shit you do. Christians, Jews and Muslims - they all refuse a significant part of the inherent rights of belonging in a human society to any class of people that is not a male, heterosexual believer. You may not admit it nor like to hear it but religion is a disgusting, archaic, passé concept that has no place in today's civilization.

Religion does not deserve any intrinsic respect. Beliefs can be attacked and criticized like anything and everyone else. A set of beliefs being classified as a "religion" should not protect it from scrutiny. Abrahamic religions just happen to be androcentric, horrendous, badly written fiction and the fact that a turd is worshipped by flies the world over doesn't make it anything more than a turd.

Earn respect, do not demand it.

You believe every word in the Bible?

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." - I Corinthians 11:8-9

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." - Ephesians 5:22-24

"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." - Ecclesiastes 25:13

"In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." - Romans 1:27

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them." - Leviticus 20:13

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel." - 1 Peter 2:18

Then you are a terrible person.

Okay, i never ever said that i believed gays should be "put to death" nor do i believe that many many principals(especially in the Old Testament) in the bible are no longer in practice because times have changed dramatically. I said i believed every thing in the bible, not that i thought everything was morally right for this day and age.

The great excuse! Don't pick and choose from the book by fuck's sake, either you believe all of it in its literal expression or you believe nothing. Why exactly would they be "outdated"? How can the sacred word of a deity be "outdated" when the whole purpose is to live by the precepts dictated?

The Bible is a law where בתי דין used to enforce it. As a parallel, abortion used to be criminalized the world over, until society changed and the legislator struck the section regarding abortion down. Assuming the Bible contains divine revelations that should ostensibly be followed, then after sweeping changes to society, it is at the very least a divinely inspired leader that should strike down what is outdated. Having the worshippers, the people bending to the law change this very law based on their whims is stupid, and if humans have realize this, God sure has. In the absence of an updated Bible, all the backwards shit still stands, and it's all the more hilarious because you are studying a fairy tale by twisting its words to fit your own purposes.

There is a precept in law saying "the legislator never expresses himself for nothing". There is always a ratio legis, except apparently for the Bible . So basically the whole text as divinely inspired law is fucking useless if there is no driving reason behind it and it can always be modified following society's evolution. Way to go, you're worshipping a text that would not even pass a kangaroo court's scrutiny.

[Brice]

Since this is kind of more like an opinion thing im not sure if this should go here.. But.. Anyways
I know theres a lot of talk about gay marriage and what not, in the U.S. What do you believe is morally and/or traditionally right or wrong?
Personally, i believe a marriage should be between a man and woman.. Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against gays! I think its wonderful to spend your life with someone you love. But not as a homosexual married couple. I was raised as a Christian, so thats not only what i've been taught but also what i, after giving it great thought and debating what i thought, i do believe a marriage should be kept traditional..

Sorry if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.

The Bible itself says judge not and ye shall not be judged. That's basically saying that it's wrong, but people, Christians especially, should accept it and not shove their personal morals down others throat. It also says that man was made in the image of God and women in the image of man, so is it truly wrong to love a man??? Shouldn't that mean that we gays love God more?? I believe, based on the Bible's own words, that everyone should accept it. I would like to see some Christians answer my earlier questions though, because it's perfectly healthy to challenge your beliefs and thoughts. And about the shoving down your throat thing, I did not mean to offend anyone, just telling it as it is because there are people out there who do it.

[Gordo]

The Bible itself says judge not and ye shall not be judged. That's basically saying that it's wrong, but people, Christians especially, should accept it and not shove their personal morals down others throat. It also says that man was made in the image of God and women in the image of man, so is it truly wrong to love a man??? Shouldn't that mean that we gays love God more?? I believe, based on the Bible's own words, that everyone should accept it. I would like to see some Christians answer my earlier questions though, because it's perfectly healthy to challenge your beliefs and thoughts. And about the shoving down your throat thing, I did not mean to offend anyone, just telling it as it is because there are people out there who do it.

I don't see them as shoving their beliefs down your throat. Are you not doing a similar thing with your beliefs by advocating your views over theirs?

Christians shouldn't condemn non-Christians. It's wrong and sad if you've been treated that way.

I'll have to go back and look at what your previous posts were. I read all the posts, but lost track of who was sayin' what.

[Greg1994]

I mean I'm catholic, I'm straight, however I fully support gay marriage. I think its cynical not to..

[TheMatrix]

Okay! Before we get out of hand, I'd like us all to take a deep breath and calm down.
This is not a shit-flinging contest, nor is it a "whose religion(or lack thereof) is better" argument. We can do this, I know it.
The last thing I want to do is lock this thread, because then a very interesting subject will be lost. And I would hate to see that happen.

~~~ And now, for my opinion: ~~~

I say: let them. Let people do what they please. If Joe wants to marry Bob, then whose business is it to stop them? From what I've been taught in my American history classes, this country was set up on tolerant beliefs and yada yada yada, but recent events tend to contradict this.

What can we do about it? Eliminate the church's influence on the state. Set up a Utilitarian-Socialist country, where there would be no need for government intervention. People can hold any opinion they wish, and maybe our economy will get a little better in the process.
Ah, now wouldn't that be nice?

[TigerBoy]

Okay, i never ever said that i believed gays should be "put to death" nor do i believe that many many principals(especially in the Old Testament) in the bible are no longer in practice because times have changed dramatically. I said i believed every thing in the bible, not that i thought everything was morally right for this day and age.
Its quite simple, you either "believe every thing" or you don't. If you pick and choose, then clearly you don't "believe every thing".



Its not just a collection of stories, its stories, lessons, teachings, and other things.
I already stated as much myself.


Assuming that i havent read the bible without knowing all the facts is unconventional. Many parts are proven by history not just "claimed" to be so.

I don't agree with 'many', and "many" more parts are very clearly apocryphal or 'visions'.


Firstly, you cut out a lot of these verses and took them out of context, you should never ever do that.

Either you believe every word or you don't: my entire point was to show that you cannot take the word of the bible as absolute. You have to start interpreting it as you are trying to do now, and as soon as you do that you end up with differences of opinion and churches splitting and forming new sects.


The word "forever" is only for that age administration, not literally forever.
Who says? The bible says "forever" - you have just pulled a new definition of 'forever' out of thin air.


Again, taken out of context, and an uncompleted verse. I don't feel like explaining the bible to you,
Funny, that always happens when I have these conversations like this.

As I said, I was simply illustrating that you cannot take every part literally without "interpreting" and that is exactly where human bigotry and hatred creeps into the gaps.

[Mothership]

I don't even understand why this is such a big deal to people in the first place.
People act like there is a war on traditional marriage, which there is no "war" at all. *ahem Rush Limbaugh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvUTdanfL8) ahem* If anything there is a war on gay marriage mostly led by the conservatives and Christians that believe that God doesn't want gay marriage to be legal in the United States which is just blind thinking. There isn't anyone attacking traditional marriage, but it seems like almost everyone is attacking gay marriage. I thought this country was above oppression these days, but I guess not.

Gay marriage isn't affecting the straight individual in any way, so why should we discriminate towards it? Why should we deny someone of their rights because of something totally natural that people don't like simply because they don't like it?

[Texas warrior]

I think that gay marriage should be legal, the government has no right to enforce the modern Christian tradition of man and woman marriage, even if gay marriage was wrong.

[Brice]

I don't see them as shoving their beliefs down your throat. Are you not doing a similar thing with your beliefs by advocating your views over theirs?

Christians shouldn't condemn non-Christians. It's wrong and sad if you've been treated that way.

I'll have to go back and look at what your previous posts were. I read all the posts, but lost track of who was sayin' what.

I agree with everything you have said aside from the top part. By the shoving down the throat thing, I meant when some Christians, not all, say something along the lines of," _____ is sinning. It's wrong. You're going to Hell." Or," If you don't believe exactly as I do, you're going to Hell." And people have said that a lot to me in my life. Though, some of my best friends are Christian, so I am not prejudiced against Christianity, and I didn't mean the whole population of Christians. Just the stubborn few with narrow minds. And I do not believe I'm forcing my personal beliefs on others. I have not said that anyone has to believe as I do. I was simply stating my beliefs on this subject and backing up my beliefs with words from the basis of Christianity itself. I was also trying to make people question their beliefs, as it is always healthy to look into them.

[Green Arrow]

I know this thread has probably done about a thousand times but what with the US states Maine, Maryland, Minnesota and Washington saying no to the ban on gay marriage I thought I would make it again. What is your view on marriage equality? Should same sex couples be allowed to marry who they love?

This is a subject close to my heart with myself being a half closeted gay teen, I will post my opinion later on as I am still writing it. Play nicely everyone, let the games begin!

[ImCoolBeans]

These threads have been merged seeing as there is no reason to have two open threads covering the same debate.

[TigerBoy]

I know this thread has probably done about a thousand times but what with the US states Maine, Maryland, Minnesota and Washington saying no to the ban on gay marriage

It seems more than just 'no to a ban' in some cases, a but actually that same sex marriage will be legal in three more states...
Washington state will have legal marriage on or around 6th December.
Maryland will have legal marriage on 6th December
Maine got legal marriage in 09 but it was blocked before it came into force, and that block has now been removed so as I understand it Maine will get legal equal marriage too.
Minnesota has voted down a blocking move to define marriage as being m/f only (so no new rights, but it has stopped a major obstacle being thrown in for future changes).


Congratulations USA - what with your choice of President, you are showing that the bigots and religious extremists are not being allowed to ruin your country.

[Lost in the Echo]

Personally I have no problem with it, you can't control who you love, so it's wrong to say that 2 guys or 2 girls can't marry, just because it's not "traditional" or "not right". If 2 people love each other, then they should be able to marry.

[nice]

I think they should be able to get married 2 guys or 2 girls can love each other just as much as a man and a woman.

I hope it doesn't take to long to legalize it over all of the USA.