Worldviews, Creationism, and Stubborn People

[MattHolyman41]

Hi

Over the latest years I settled my worldviews explicitly a few times. I was always non-religious and I found it hard to understand how other people who seek faith could think. In the beginning I was a militant atheist who wanted to debate religious people and deconvert them with my arguments (as you can see in some of my old posts). I was often irrationally explicit and intolerant, which I tried to fix. Yet over time, I found out that this kind of debate is useless. No side will ever learn something new. Instead I was focusing on a debate between preferrably rational thinkers, skeptics and creationists, as well as proponents of various pseudosciences. I have gathered a lot of information on scientific subjects.
Nowadays I adopted various philosophies, having a foundation in science and nature, such as: pantheism, biocentrism, panentheism, agnosticism, universalism, solipsism, etc. All the time I take the most rational and scientifically convincing statements and opinions and fuse them together in my own worldview. Right now, I would say, that pure atheism is no longer my worldview.

Creationism and pseudosciences still grind my gears. Often I find myself in internet or real-life debates with these people, and each time I do this, I get mad because the other side is just so stubborn and irrational, despite the fact that I do not try to shatter their faith, but only try to convince them of the validity of evolution, big bang, or abiogenesis and bring them into the scientific picture, they constantly use bad logic, lies, half-truisms, quote mining and other stupid arguments.
In these debates, I even try to look like a rational Christian (even though I'm not), arguing in favor of theistic evolution, deistic arguments, and support these arguments with the basic principles of for example; the holographic universe theory. But all this is in vain.

I know that I shouldn't be so depressed because of this, but one side of me really wants to teach these stubborn people the scientific facts and modify their version of truth without having to sacrifice the scientific discoveries. The other side of me is disappointed, angry and really confused about what I should do.

I'm constantly thinking to myself: "I don't want to live in this civilization anymore" when I encounter such ignorance. What should I do? Should I waste my time in my wasteful crusade to teach people the face of reality? Or should I perhaps isolate myself from such debates and not stress myself with this?

In case some of you are in favor of creationist (young Earth, Old Earth), intelligent design and other pseudosciences, how do you justify your position? Why do you refuse to consider the arguments of the opposition and rethink your views, learn something new like: what evolution actually means (since a vast majority creationists don't understand it at all)?

[WaffleSingSong]

Hi

Over the latest years I settled my worldviews explicitly a few times. I was always non-religious and I found it hard to understand how other people who seek faith could think. In the beginning I was a militant atheist who wanted to debate religious people and deconvert them with my arguments (as you can see in some of my old posts). I was often irrationally explicit and intolerant, which I tried to fix. Yet over time, I found out that this kind of debate is useless. No side will ever learn something new. Instead I was focusing on a debate between preferrably rational thinkers, skeptics and creationists, as well as proponents of various pseudosciences. I have gathered a lot of information on scientific subjects.
Nowadays I adopted various philosophies, having a foundation in science and nature, such as: pantheism, biocentrism, panentheism, agnosticism, universalism, solipsism, etc. All the time I take the most rational and scientifically convincing statements and opinions and fuse them together in my own worldview. Right now, I would say, that pure atheism is no longer my worldview.

Creationism and pseudosciences still grind my gears. Often I find myself in internet or real-life debates with these people, and each time I do this, I get mad because the other side is just so stubborn and irrational, despite the fact that I do not try to shatter their faith, but only try to convince them of the validity of evolution, big bang, or abiogenesis and bring them into the scientific picture, they constantly use bad logic, lies, half-truisms, quote mining and other stupid arguments.
In these debates, I even try to look like a rational Christian (even though I'm not), arguing in favor of theistic evolution, deistic arguments, and support these arguments with the basic principles of for example; the holographic universe theory. But all this is in vain.

I know that I shouldn't be so depressed because of this, but one side of me really wants to teach these stubborn people the scientific facts and modify their version of truth without having to sacrifice the scientific discoveries. The other side of me is disappointed, angry and really confused about what I should do.

I'm constantly thinking to myself: "I don't want to live in this civilization anymore" when I encounter such ignorance. What should I do? Should I waste my time in my wasteful crusade to teach people the face of reality? Or should I perhaps isolate myself from such debates and not stress myself with this?

In case some of you are in favor of creationist (young Earth, Old Earth), intelligent design and other pseudosciences, how do you justify your position? Why do you refuse to consider the arguments of the opposition and rethink your views, learn something new like: what evolution actually means (since a vast majority creationists don't understand it at all)?

Im actually believe God made a big bang, picked a decent planet to put life on after it, made evolution happen there and just said "Fuck It" and rarely comes back to Earth after that. Like a really old Minecraft server.

[LouBerry]

I don't really know "how" everything came to be. But I don't really need to. I believe that however it happened, God did it. That's just not one of the things I care to figure out.

[havingfun]

The reason I Believe that God did it all is this:
Think of the statistical odds of everything evolving from pretty much nothing. The first piece of life living long enough to reproduce, and continuing to reproduce long enough to get to where we are today. Then look at the odds of all of the checks and balances in nature just happening. Things like bacteria decomposing old animals so that the landscape isn't littered with dead stuff, The weather of the earth maintaining itself in such a way to sustain life for eons. The existence of food so that the other living things can be nourished. And conscienciousness (however you spell that) and intelligence. I can keep going on, but I am sure you get my point.

What are the odds of all that happening on it's own?

[huginnmuninn]

If a god did design humans as they are now he/she/it did a shitty job..

[Cicero]

If a god did design humans as they are now he/she/it did a shitty job..

Well, he did create it. But everyone got a decision. I'm not in the mood to aruge about this, especially when their have been other debates about this subject.


I'm guessing young earth theory, is during the 7 days, it literally took 7 days for God to create it. Instead of thousands of years = 1 day in God time.

[huginnmuninn]

Well, he did create it. But everyone got a decision. I'm not in the mood to aruge about this, especially when their have been other debates about this subject.


I'm guessing young earth theory, is during the 7 days, it literally took 7 days for God to create it. Instead of thousands of years = 1 day in God time.

I was referring to actual human anatomy which is very inefficient. for example we have our spines pretty much supporting our entire bodies which leads to many back problems such as scoliosis.

[WaffleSingSong]

I was referring to actual human anatomy which is very inefficient. for example we have our spines pretty much supporting our entire bodies which leads to many back problems such as scoliosis.

Eh, Gods a dick. Then again, we all would be if we had his awesome, raw power and magic like he does.

[Thanatos]

If a god did design humans as they are now he/she/it did a shitty job..

I don't believe that God created humans, however I will disagree with you on this point. Humans have gone from small nomadic tribes living in fear of being hunted, to the dominant species inhabiting the globe. We have learned to overcome gravity as well as many other forces of nature. The human race is one of, if not the, most adaptable species to ever exist.


Now as for my views on how it came to be, etc. I don't much care. I think that science is wasting its time on trying to figure out the universe and how it came to be. Instead of wondering how we exist, be glad that we do, and instead of figuring out how the universe was formed, worry more about how it now works and how to work that to benefit the human race.

[Puma_concolor]

One thing you have to understand is not everybody is as adamant about the topic as you. Don't look at people any differently based on their philosophies, chances are they know a whole lot more about some things than you. One is able to benefit from everybody, the key is to discover where that knowledge they contain is located. One thing so many people are bad at is so simple yet taken for granted by so many: Listening. I have picked up many things spanning a broad variety of topics from the most unexpected of people. It's so easy to do, there is literally nothing to it; saying nothing and absorbing what others say; no effort except focusing.

Bringing up touchy subjects such as this will make a person feel uncomfortable no matter how it is presented, unless they specifically bring it up. When one is uncomfortable, they turn defensive, easily mistaken for arrogance. It is hard to get someone out of that state, therefore it's best not to dwell into such topics in the first place.

[MattHolyman41]

The reason I Believe that God did it all is this:
Think of the statistical odds of everything evolving from pretty much nothing. The first piece of life living long enough to reproduce, and continuing to reproduce long enough to get to where we are today. Then look at the odds of all of the checks and balances in nature just happening. Things like bacteria decomposing old animals so that the landscape isn't littered with dead stuff, The weather of the earth maintaining itself in such a way to sustain life for eons. The existence of food so that the other living things can be nourished. And conscienciousness (however you spell that) and intelligence. I can keep going on, but I am sure you get my point.

What are the odds of all that happening on it's own?

The probability doesn't matter. Chance certainly plays a role in these processes, but eventually some kind of life, regardless of what form, must have formed in this universe for its laws of physics allow it. The fine tuning of Earth is pretty much an axiom. If at least one planet like that exists in this universe, life must form there, even though it can't form anywhere else. Remember, life adapts to the planet, not the other way around.
In many cases life on Earth had it pretty bad. It was nearly wiped out 600 mya in the snowball-Earth ice age, the permian mass extinction eradicated 95% of all species. Sometimes life gets a strike in the gut from nature. I would say its partially luck, partially adaptability and partially the fact that the mentioned natural catastrophes were not so severe (imagine a supernova exploding a few tens of light years to us - no chance of survival).

One thing you have to understand is not everybody is as adamant about the topic as you. Don't look at people any differently based on their philosophies, chances are they know a whole lot more about some things than you. One is able to benefit from everybody, the key is to discover where that knowledge they contain is located. One thing so many people are bad at is so simple yet taken for granted by so many: Listening. I have picked up many things spanning a broad variety of topics from the most unexpected of people. It's so easy to do, there is literally nothing to it; saying nothing and absorbing what others say; no effort except focusing.

Bringing up touchy subjects such as this will make a person feel uncomfortable no matter how it is presented, unless they specifically bring it up. When one is uncomfortable, they turn defensive, easily mistaken for arrogance. It is hard to get someone out of that state, therefore it's best not to dwell into such topics in the first place.

So, I should just deal with the fact that some people don't want to accept the best available objective explanation? And for such people, the only thing they are good at is quote mining, even from their own Bible. Of course many of them possess various degrees of education on scientific subjects, yet all of them take it from an entirely bad perspective when they only accept some parts of science and not other.

Im actually believe God made a big bang, picked a decent planet to put life on after it, made evolution happen there and just said "Fuck It" and rarely comes back to Earth after that. Like a really old Minecraft server.

Sounds cool :D

Edit(Thor): Triple posts merged. Please use the 'Multi-Quote' button next time.

[Cicero]

I was referring to actual human anatomy which is very inefficient. for example we have our spines pretty much supporting our entire bodies which leads to many back problems such as scoliosis.

I have a spine condition called Lordosis (APT). It's not Gods fault I have this, it's because I've lived a pretty sedentary life. So some conduit ions are self inflicted, sometimes intentionally

[Gigablue]

The reason I Believe that God did it all is this:
Think of the statistical odds of everything evolving from pretty much nothing.

I assume you are talking about life "evolving" from nothing. This isn't evolution, but it is true that the first life did come from non living material. It's not very unlikely though. The environment on earth billions of years ago was very different. There were many more chemical reactions going on at the same time, some of these produced molecules necessary for life i.e. self replicating strands of RNA, amino acids, phospholipids for cell membranes, etc. All of these would have arisen all over the earth and when they combined in the right way, could have formed a primitive cell. This probably happened many times, and nearly all of them died. You only need one cell that can reproduce to provide the origin of all life on earth. Given the environment on earth, the long time for this to happen and the size of the earth, it would be very unlikely for it not to happen.

The first piece of life living long enough to reproduce, and continuing to reproduce long enough to get to where we are today.

Life could have arisen many times and died many times. All it takes is one cell that survives and reproduces into many cells, the more cells there are, the less likely they all are to die.

Then look at the odds of all of the checks and balances in nature just happening. Things like bacteria decomposing old animals so that the landscape isn't littered with dead stuff, The weather of the earth maintaining itself in such a way to sustain life for eons. The existence of food so that the other living things can be nourished.

This isn't unlikely at all. When there is an empty ecological niche, something will evolve to fill it. Any organism that doesn't have a food source will die out, so only the ones with food survive. The weather of the earth has to do with the environment on earth and where it is in relation to the sun. Given the number of planets in the universe, it's likely that there was at least one with a proper climate.

And conscienciousness (however you spell that) and intelligence. I can keep going on, but I am sure you get my point.

Intelligence and consciousness are just a product of advanced brain development. Having a large, efficient brain is highly advantageous and was selected for by natural selection. Intelligence and consciousness are inevitable byproducts.

What are the odds of all that happening on it's own?

Very high.

[shadrack44]

If a god did design humans as they are now he/she/it did a shitty job..

actualy we have free choice so we did a shitty job and the worst of humamity have some sort of disorder but they seem to lose every time in the end.

and life is way to complex to be created by chance math and logic are against early spontaneous generation.

If a god did design humans as they are now he/she/it did a shitty job..

actualy we have free choice so we did a shitty job and the worst of humamity have some sort of disorder but they seem to lose every time in the end.

and life is way to complex to be created by chance math and logic are against early spontaneous generation.

Please use the "edit" button instead of double posting. ~Bath/Bethany

[huginnmuninn]

actualy we have free choice so we did a shitty job and the worst of humamity have some sort of disorder but they seem to lose every time in the end.

and life is way to complex to be created by chance math and logic are against early spontaneous generation.

if you had read the other post you would know i was talking about human anatomy not our mindset. Unless you're implying that we all chose to have our body look like it does.