Are all vigilantes bad?

[WaffleSingSong]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilante for definition.

Are all vigilantes bad just because they do not follow the law? Or do some do the right thing by executing it quicker? What is your idea on this?

[Professional Russian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilante for definition.

Are all vigilantes bad just because they do not follow the law? Or do some do the right thing by executing it quicker? What is your idea on this?

They are good. The average response time of a cop is 10 min. the average time of me shoveing a mag in the mag well of my 1911 and and taking slide lock and begin fireing is just under 3 secondds. you tell me whos faster and tell me which is more useful.

[FreeFall]

In the era where my pizza comes faster than cops, I'll be standing by the vigilantes.

So what, they occasionally slip up and get the wrong guy. Law enforcements do it too, and it's worse because it's their job to protect the innocent but they'd rather protect the glamorous and wealthy. They will either neglect the evidence, abuse their power, or trample all over the evidence. Just recently a dad in Texas killed the man that he caught sexually assaulting his 5 year old daughter. We bet that had he let the law handle it, the man would've claim illness or insanity, got "help", get out in the world, and harm yet another child and repeat the cycle. The dad was not arrested thanks to Texan laws but he is a hero in a place where there may have been none.
Vigilantes serve justice where it is due.

[sammy1996]

You cant use such a blanket statement, sure some are good and do the right thing but some will use force and potentally kill people who might well be innocent where a trained enforcer would otherwise have made the right decision or even made the wrong decision but not use life threatening force such as many vigilantes would.

Its impossible to label them good or bad as circumstances vary beyond belief and good is different in the eyes of many people to good which others perceive.

The main problem i think with vigilantes are without doubt some of them are just so trigger-happy and itching to shoot someones they'll take any opportunity they can get, even over something as trivial as a minor crime like stealing something from the garden, sure it might be a crime but is it worth ending a life over it?

[WaffleSingSong]

Personally, I like the idea of vigilantes, but some might just do so because of power. I think we should just have a re-frontier justice policy and call it a day :P

[Mortal Coil]

No, all vigilantes are not bad. In fact, I think that vigilantes are a good thing. We live in an era where OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony walked free, despite them both being obviously guilty (imo) so the legal system is kind of... fucked. Plus, vigilantes gave birth to the whole idea of superhero movies. I mean, come on... superhero movies!

[Anyone51]

they have their pros and cons like anything - what qualifies someone to be a vigilante and how can they always be sure they are right unless they catch someone in the act... if no checks and balances a person wielding such power could go out of control.

they aren't all intelligent, trained and moral as The Punisher

[Iris]

It really depends on each individual vigilante. I'd say the greatest issue with them is that they tend to have their own version of justice. Police officers and such abide by the laws that society has deemed fair and just; vigilantes go by whatever they feel is right, and what they believe is the right thing to do is too often not what our society may consider just. If someone is so desperate to protect their community, there are other ways to do so other than wielding whatever form of justice he/she thinks is right.

[MisterSix]

Well it depends... I don't think its bad if a shop owner uses a taser, they keep under the counter, on a thief.
And I don't see a lynch mob ever been good

[Sugaree]

They are good. The average response time of a cop is 10 min. the average time of me shoveing a mag in the mag well of my 1911 and and taking slide lock and begin fireing is just under 3 secondds. you tell me whos faster and tell me which is more useful.

I trust a cop more than I trust a 15 year old with a 1911.

[Professional Russian]

I trust a cop more than I trust a 15 year old with a 1911.

yeah i do to but the fact is im faster than that cop. if someone i know is in danger ui can get there faster than a cop.

[WaffleSingSong]

yeah i do to but the fact is im faster than that cop. if someone i know is in danger ui can get there faster than a cop.

So? I still believe in vigilantes, but when there are people actually TRAINED for protecting citizens, I still trust them a whole lot more as they know the proper way to deal with the situation rather than just killing the offender.

[Professional Russian]

So? I still believe in vigilantes, but when there are people actually TRAINED for protecting citizens, I still trust them a whole lot more as they know the proper way to deal with the situation rather than just killing the offender.

If someones pointing a gun at you would you rather A. wait for the police to get there and talk him out of it take him to jail and have him get out in a few years or B. Shoot him to the ground and make sure he wont do it to anyone else.

Im gonna take B. because we all the justice system in the US is corrupt

[PinkFloyd]

Lets say someone is mugging me on the street.

I have a beretta 92 on me..
I have a phone on me...
Do I wait for the police to either scrape up my dead body or get money back in 11 1/2 minutes?

NO, I knock his weapon away, and shoot him once in the biggest target.. you do the math

Probability * accuracy devided by 7,956... xD

[Professional Russian]

Lets say someone is mugging me on the street.

I have a beretta 92 on me..
I have a phone on me...
Do I wait for the police to either scrape up my dead body or get money back in 11 1/2 minutes?

NO, I knock his weapon away, and shoot him once in the biggest target.. you do the math

Probability * accuracy devided by 7,956... xD

your chances of hitting him in the right spot while getting mugged are slim to none and the 92 sucks. get a 1911 .45 ACP is much better than 9MM. If it were me id carry a .44. best round in the world

Actually your chances of hitting your target get smaller with each step you take back because most carry guns have sights set for 25 meters and are barely accurate to that.

[WaffleSingSong]

If someones pointing a gun at you would you rather A. wait for the police to get there and talk him out of it take him to jail and have him get out in a few years or B. Shoot him to the ground and make sure he wont do it to anyone else.

Im gonna take B. because we all the justice system in the US is corrupt

About A, A lot of killers do not get out very easy. And besides, even If they did do so, and then got out early, it was for good behavior and they have most likely changed, and police are very good at catching fakes, im sure.

And B, again, If he is punished, he will not do any of those things again. Ether he rots in prison, or he gets rehabilitated. Simple as that. Why throw away someone who could have a possibly good life? And even if they do not
have it, he is locked in a cell with guards everywhere in a fortress of steel and stone.

And, take a look at this interactive map http://www.transparency.org/country#AUT And you will see that we are not as corrupt as most people think.

In fact, the only thing that seems corrupted is your sense of grammar.

[Professional Russian]

About A, A lot of killers do not get out very easy. And besides, even If they did do so, and then got out early, it was for good behavior and they have most likely changed, and police are very good at catching fakes, im sure.

And B, again, If he is punished, he will not do any of those things again. Ether he rots in prison, or he gets rehabilitated. Simple as that. Why throw away someone who could have a possibly good life? And even if they do not
have it, he is locked in a cell with guards everywhere in a fortress of steel and stone.

And, take a look at this interactive map http://www.transparency.org/country#AUT And you will see that we are not as corrupt as most people think.

In fact, the only thing that seems corrupted is your sense of grammar.

If hes dead i know for a fact it wont happen again

[WaffleSingSong]

If hes dead i know for a fact it wont happen again

How can you break though steel and stone and not get alerted by guards? Even if they do escape, which is unlikely, there life would be a living hell running and running from the law, and have you ever heard of the songs "I Fought the Law, and the Law won" by the Clash and "Authority Song" by John Mellencamp? They exist for a good reason. They always get caught.

I believe in frontier justice, but there should be some sense of special authority behind it. A hybrid of the two makes for almost perfect security :)

[Human]

No they aren't all bad, but some have a bad idea of justice and want to torture them haha.
And yeah there's literally no police in my village, and the nearest station is the village next to us in our parish.
I haven't seen a policeman patrolling here for years ahah

[Korashk]

PR, acting in (arguable) self-defense isn't vigilantism.

[Jean Poutine]

No, fuck vigilantes.

People who take the law into their own hands are idiots. People can scream and moan about a victim's rights, how police is corrupt and so on but it still stands that criminals are people just like you and me and deserve the same rights.

If you start to condone groups of idiots going around and interpreting the law any way they want, soon enough you'll have radical Islamist vigilante groups submitting everyone to shari'a on pain of getting shot. That's what vigilantes are. "Man that woman has her collarbones wide open to the eyes of everyone. Infidel slut. Guilty of violating hadith #426. Stone her." Or hey, even better, radical Jewish vigilante groups. "This goy's eating a cheeseburger. He's mixing dairy and meat. Guilty of violating mitzvah #234. Shoot him."

On a scholarly point of view, vigilantes are bad because they make the law of a country very unstable, as it is prone to personal interpretation on the part of those who hold power into their hands and becomes increasingly arbitrary. Citizens do not know what not to do and the consequences for doing something forbidden, which is a hallmark of all modern criminal systems (read : penal codes). Justice becomes chaotic and any standardized system becomes increasingly unenforceable, as different vigilante groups soon hold different interpretations, and ultimately, different sets of laws entirely. That's without taking into account corruption or the whims of vigilante leaders. How exactly do you enforce such basics as innocent until proven guilty, Miranda rights and so on when small bands of people have the law (and your rights) in their hands and can twist it when they see fit?

Endnote, making a single group of people judge, jury and executioner is always a terrible idea. It cheapens the rights of the many for the satisfaction of a few.

If you start regulating vigilantes, well...you know how one calls regulated vigilantes? Policemen.

[FreeFall]

Corruption is everywhere in any organization of any kind.

Also, not every law breaker is caught. Most infamous are the Zodiac Killer, The LaCrosse Serial Killer, The Tylenol Terrorist. To this day, there's nothing on them and it has been decades for two.
Jails are not escape proof. Frank Morris and like 4 others got out of Alcatraz and were never caught but also never seen of even though there have been reports of sightings. Edward Salas is still at large, I think he escaped from prison about 4 years ago. Some people are repeat escapees.

I'm not saying replace the police force with the neighborhood watch, we know they can be worse than the cops some days. But we shouldn't wipe out the vigilantes that can protect us better than the ones with a badge on some days.

[randomnessqueen]

their intentions are good so i wouldnt call them solely bad, unless they kill, then i can call them bad. it doesnt matter if the victim was a criminal, its no justification. the victims crimes regardless dont change that theyve just killed. theyre sinking to the level of a criminal. a second wrong only makes for two wrongs

[Puma_concolor]

your chances of hitting him in the right spot while getting mugged are slim to none and the 92 sucks. get a 1911 .45 ACP is much better than 9MM. If it were me id carry a .44. best round in the world

Actually your chances of hitting your target get smaller with each step you take back because most carry guns have sights set for 25 meters and are barely accurate to that.

God dammit here we go. The good ol' 45 ACP vs 9mm. The 9mm and the .45 ACP are almost the exact same balistically speaking you nimrod. And remember the M9 you love so much? That's identical to the 92F, but with military specifications. And the .44 is not the best caliber in the world, there's no such thing. An individual bullet is a round, meaning a .44 is not a round, it's a caliber.

You change the subject to guns just so you can sound like you know something, don't you?

I forgot to mention, 1911's aren't made to be concealed, they're fuck-all huge.

[Professional Russian]

God dammit here we go. The good ol' 45 ACP vs 9mm. The 9mm and the .45 ACP are almost the exact same balistically speaking you nimrod.

that is wrong. the .45 ACP is bigger than the 9MM with more knock down power. the 9MM sucks horrible because it has over penetration

And remember the M9 you love so much? That's identical to the 92F, but with military specifications.

I hate M9s because i hate 9MM now if Beretta put one out in .45 ACP id be happy

And the .44 is not the best caliber in the world, there's no such thing. An individual bullet is a round, meaning a .44 is not a round, it's a caliber.

sorry the best round in the world is the .357 because it travels slow with a heavy projectile so when it enters the body it stops and the more moveing you do does more damage.

You change the subject to guns just so you can sound like you know something, don't you?

Dude i study guns i like guns they are my hobby i enjoy them. i probably know alot more about them unless your like 34 and a registered gunsmith

I forgot to mention, 1911's aren't made to be concealed, they're fuck-all huge.

The 1911 is not that bad to carry. But thats because i prefer a full sized pistol to a compact one.

[Cicero]

I believe they can be good, especially if they do stuff to make the country better. As long as they have good intentions and goals, it sure doesn't hurt, if it fails, then at least others eyes have been open to that issue.

[Puma_concolor]

that is wrong. the .45 ACP is bigger than the 9MM with more knock down power. the 9MM sucks horrible because it has over penetration



I hate M9s because i hate 9MM now if Beretta put one out in .45 ACP id be happy



sorry the best round in the world is the .357 because it travels slow with a heavy projectile so when it enters the body it stops and the more moveing you do does more damage.



Dude i study guns i like guns they are my hobby i enjoy them. i probably know alot more about them unless your like 34 and a registered gunsmith



The 1911 is not that bad to carry. But thats because i prefer a full sized pistol to a compact one.


You once again are displaying your ignorance. The 9mm is one of the best cartridges ever conceived, and if you doubt whether it'll perform or not, you have never fired it before in your life. You are 15 years old, you're not allowed to carry, so quit pretending you carry a handgun around with you. This isn't a competition, so quit branding yourself as a gun expert, you very clearly aren't. You can study guns all you want, that doesn't make you credible.

Anybody who says the 9mm isn't a good cartridge instantly loses all credibility with somebody who knows anything. If you knew as much as you claim, you would know the Luger was a revolutionary firearm that inspired some of the best guns ever made, just like the cartridge created for it, the 9mm Parabellum.

Read Wikipedia all you want, that's not studying guns nor does it make you some sort of gun "expert", especially not at your age.

[havingfun]

.............

[Christine.]

Well their intentions are good. but the results arent always good for society

[triggerperson]

I don't believe all vigilantes are bad just based on the fact that they break the law. It's not holy, you know. It's just shit people came up with to try to keep some sort of order in society.

[ImCoolBeans]

I believe they can be good, especially if they do stuff to make the country better. As long as they have good intentions and goals, it sure doesn't hurt, if it fails, then at least others eyes have been open to that issue.

Any type of support to back yourself up at all?

They are good in concept, but I can see where things can go wrong-especially if they are not properly trained to handle certain situations, and I can see their egos getting in the way.

I disagree that they are good in concept - I think it is a horrible idea in concept - although I do agree with your second statement.

Do we really want untrained civilians roaming the streets waiting for a crime to be committed so they can take matters into their own hands? I don't think so. Police might not be perfect; but I do not like the idea of somebody who might not know how to properly use a weapon trying to keep order in society by using means of violence. It's just idiotic.

Not only is it totally unsafe, but it creates an image that using violence to solve our problems is okay. Promoting vigilante justice will have violence on the rise and will send a message to all other modern heroes saying: "Hey if he can do it then why can't I?" This state of mind creates more vigilantes, who continue to pass on the message to others. It starts a never ending chain of violence and unsafe circumstances.

Vigilante justice works out just fine in movies, comic books and TV shows; but this isn't the movies, things don't work that way in real life. In the Batman movies they even show how Batman, being the vigilante, negatively effects society. He destroys public property on a whim and also sends that message saying "vigilante justice is a-okay!" In The Dark Knight, other civilians catch on to the fact that Batman is just one of them, who just happens to keep the city safe. So what do they do? They dress up like batman and try to fend off crime by themselves. They get their asses kicked along the way and even killed. Yes, I know this is a fictional example, and please keep that in mind; but I think it's a very good one at that and shows the chain of events that will follow actual vigilante justice when it steps off of the TV screen.

Promotion of violence, endangerment of civilians, destruction of public and private property along with the safety of the vigilantes being compromised is enough for me to say that vigilante justice is a terrible, stupid and childish idea.

[Puma_concolor]

Dude i study guns i like guns they are my hobby i enjoy them. i probably know alot more about them unless your like 34 and a registered gunsmith


You should really try studying the English language.

[Cicero]

Any type of support to back yourself up at all?



I disagree that they are good in concept - I think it is a horrible idea in concept - although I do agree with your second statement.

Do we really want untrained civilians roaming the streets waiting for a crime to be committed so they can take matters into their own hands? I don't think so. Police might not be perfect; but I do not like the idea of somebody who might not know how to properly use a weapon trying to keep order in society by using means of violence. It's just idiotic.

Not only is it totally unsafe, but it creates an image that using violence to solve our problems is okay. Promoting vigilante justice will have violence on the rise and will send a message to all other modern heroes saying: "Hey if he can do it then why can't I?" This state of mind creates more vigilantes, who continue to pass on the message to others. It starts a never ending chain of violence and unsafe circumstances.

Vigilante justice works out just fine in movies, comic books and TV shows; but this isn't the movies, things don't work that way in real life. In the Batman movies they even show how Batman, being the vigilante, negatively effects society. He destroys public property on a whim and also sends that message saying "vigilante justice is a-okay!" In The Dark Knight, other civilians catch on to the fact that Batman is just one of them, who just happens to keep the city safe. So what do they do? They dress up like batman and try to fend off crime by themselves. They get their asses kicked along the way and even killed. Yes, I know this is a fictional example, and please keep that in mind; but I think it's a very good one at that and shows the chain of events that will follow actual vigilante justice when it steps off of the TV screen.

Promotion of violence, endangerment of civilians, destruction of public and private property along with the safety of the vigilantes being compromised is enough for me to say that vigilante justice is a terrible, stupid and childish idea.

The Boston Tea Party

[WaffleSingSong]

The Boston Tea Party

That might haved worked, but there were still better ways than just dumping tea into a river. For example, waiting until the revolution REALLY starts. That was just an act, no actual harm.

[StoppingTime]

The Boston Tea Party

That was when we were in the middle of a war, and has nothing to do with vigilantes today.

[ImCoolBeans]

The Boston Tea Party

Something a little more current? That was 250 years ago, bud. Society is nothing like that today; the two are not comparable in any sense.

[Professional Russian]

You once again are displaying your ignorance. The 9mm is one of the best cartridges ever conceived, and if you doubt whether it'll perform or not, you have never fired it before in your life. You are 15 years old, you're not allowed to carry, so quit pretending you carry a handgun around with you. This isn't a competition, so quit branding yourself as a gun expert, you very clearly aren't. You can study guns all you want, that doesn't make you credible.

Anybody who says the 9mm isn't a good cartridge instantly loses all credibility with somebody who knows anything. If you knew as much as you claim, you would know the Luger was a revolutionary firearm that inspired some of the best guns ever made, just like the cartridge created for it, the 9mm Parabellum.

Read Wikipedia all you want, that's not studying guns nor does it make you some sort of gun "expert", especially not at your age.

The 9mm sucks because it has small bullet behind a big powder load giving it over penetration. I have shot many 9MM from berettas to rugers to glocks and even a luger oce. i knoe what they are like. .45 ACP is the best caliber because it has a 9MM powder load with a heavy bullet so when it hits a human body or what the hell your shooting it stops right there and wont over pentrate like the 9MM. now syop argueing with me over something ive studied. i dont read wikipedia i get the guns i take the guns apart and i put them back together. no im not a gun expert because there is no such thing as a gun expert. there are advances in firearms each year it is extremely hard to all that i very little of what actually exists but i know enough to know what im talking about.if you would like to argue with me some more go my diary and argue with me in the gun debate thread. i dont want mods to get all pissed off at me for argueing about this here because its not on topic