Abortion?

[therunaway]

What are your thoughts and views on it? I believe in abortion only if the girl was raped or molested. If you're 16, 17, or what ever age really, I believe if you're old enough to stick it in, you're old enough to raise the baby if the semen makes it to the egg.

[insanity]

My thoughts: abortion should be legal. If you dont agree on abortion, very simple, dont get one.

The idea of it being murder and cruel, yeah sure maybe I really dont know. BUT you cant tell a woman or girl or who ever it is what to do. Especially guys, and especially old smelly men, you cant just say it is wrong because you are not in their situation and you never will be.

If you dont want to have a child and you cant get an abortion, bringing an unwanted child into the world is cruel- more cruel then killing it as a fetus. Sure there are many people who want children and cant have them,fine, but there are also million of kids dying of starvation in slave labour and homeless. The world is overpopulated, having a kid when you dont want one is stupid.

I think the decision is the mothers and maybe the fathers, nothing to do with the rest of the world.


Edit: but then again, if I was pregnant im unsure I would want an abortion.. cause like it would be my baby so I would want to protect it... but hey im not preggers so its irrelevant.

[Taylorxbox]

I think it should be up to the person that is pregnant. If they want to have an abortion, let them. Other people shouldnt be making the decision for them.

People also need to understand that an abortion is not killing an person yet, it's just an egg. Guys blow sperm all the time and they all die. All of those are little kids, so why is getting rid of a little sperm egg inside of someone any different?

I'm not pro abortion, I'm PRO-CHOICE

[Abigballofdust]

I can't understand how can some people be so egocentric to think they can decide whether or not a mother can keep her unwanted child.
First, an unwanted child has big possibilities of growing in a bad environment.
Second, you can always give birth to a baby anonymously, but I'd rather have no child than have a child that I have to give away at birth and condemn him to an orphanage.
Third, the fact that abortion is legal doesn't mean you'll be forced to have one, it will only mean some people in some circumstances will have the chance to say no to their child because they committed a mistake or got raped or the condom broke or whatever might have happened.
I'm pro choice and I think the decision whether to have an abortion or not is completely upon the mother.

[whatevva]

I don't think I would ever have one, but it should always be my right to choose

[SLABBS]

ooooohhh dear. dont even get me started on abortion (hot topic)

Call me old fashioned but i believe abortion is wrong and i would in-fact consider it murder.

but that's just my personal beliefs

[Breakeven]

my believes : abortion only if the girl was raped or molested or keeping the baby puts her health or life in danger, other then that babies are god blessing!
that baby can be the best thing in life ^_^

[StoppingTime]

ooooohhh dear. dont even get me started on abortion (hot topic)

Call me old fashioned but i believe abortion is wrong and i would in-fact consider it murder.

but that's just my personal beliefs

Go read through this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1481901&postcount=135) and this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1453605&postcount=56), and get back to me.



And for everyone who's saying "Only if it was incest/rape etc... No.
Sure, it may not be an incredibly moral thing to do in your eyes, but is it your business? Will it affect you in any way if a woman aborts a child because she feels she can't handle it? You may not approve, but is it wrong? Who are you to rule over their lives?

[nascarman24]

This is completely wrong, I'm pro-life,

[Abigballofdust]

This is completely wrong, I'm pro-life,

Go read through this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1481901&postcount=135) and this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1453605&postcount=56), and get back to me.



And for everyone who's saying "Only if it was incest/rape etc... No.
Sure, it may not be an incredibly moral thing to do in your eyes, but is it your business? Will it affect you in any way if a woman aborts a child because she feels she can't handle it? You may not approve, but is it wrong? Who are you to rule over their lives?

I understand you can be pro life and christian and find it wrong or whatever, but that's YOUR opinion, not the opinion of every woman out there.
If a woman is mentally ready to get her unborn child removed for the sake of making her own life easier, not a problem to me. And it shouldn't be a problem for you either. You, yourself, don't do it, keep every child you may get and do whatever you want, but, for fucks sake, don't put your nose in the business of other people.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

After about a month of hard research and planning, I am ready to state my opinion on this very controversial topic.

I have decided that I am pro-choice.

I see that it is her choice.

While i still do not agree that abortion is right, i see how it is not my job to worry about other people's choices.

I also decided that a way to prevent abortion in un-needed cases, people should know the facts.

A fetus is living; I know how people will react, just let me explain.
In my eyes, life begins at conception, when the sperm cells and egg meet and create the embryo. In the woman's body, the fetus is living tissue, which makes it living, technically and scientifically (according to my high school biology teacher). Whenever you believe life begins is your choice.

Adoption is a great method of "getting rid of" unwanted babies. There are 1.5 million families in America waiting to adopt your little baby.

Abortion can harm the woman's body: it can cause infertility, low birth weight, and possible birth defects. This is because when you abort a baby, it can cause some parts of the reproductive system to be harmed. While this risk is low, it still is there.

There is also emotional stress and regret, but that varies depending on the woman, and her situation.

But overall, it is 100% her choice, and no woman should ever rush into an abortion without proper knowledge and preparation.

Sources:
Many of the information was gained from my high school biology teacher from books that she has in her room.

Most other info was gained from this (http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionArgumen.htm) site.

Thank you.



http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1653557#post1653557

[Jess]

oh this thread again.

I'm obviously pro-choice. It's a woman's choice to make, NO ONE ELSE'S.

[Sogeking]

I'm pro-life in that I think a woman shouldn't go through with an abortion. I think she should consider all other options before going through one. It's not a pretty operation and there are risks involved (as with all other operations). And I think the fetus is worth more than what we give it credit for.

However, I'm pro-choice in that I respect the women's right to seek an abortion for any or no reason at all. I may not like it but that does not give me the right to infringe on your right to do whatever you want to do with your body. You can do whatever you want with your body and you shouldn't care what other people think. Sure, other people's opinions way have an influence your decision, but in the end, It's your choice.

Pro-life (the way I would use it)≠ Anti-choice.
http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1519470&postcount=38

This pretty much sums up my opinion.

[Fuzzyevil]

@Abortion? Should be legal!

@But, the problem (here in my country) is doctor says no to any abortion case to due to women's health and what the mothers do here in my country do they kill the victim by making them drink some acid ! Because they think being rapped is something 'dishonor' definitely it is and the girl can never get married and other misconceptions!

@This is my opinion!

[Neptune]

I think abortion is murder but I understand that sometimes it's needed therefore some laws should limit why someone can get an abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal in the following situations:


Mothers life is in danger
The baby will live a life of pain and misery.
Rape.


I understand a lot of abortions (if not most) are because of those reasons above but I also know that some people use abortions as a form of birth control. I think that should be illegal.

[sammy1996]

ooooohhh dear. dont even get me started on abortion (hot topic)

Call me old fashioned but i believe abortion is wrong and i would in-fact consider it murder.

but that's just my personal beliefs

Murder? if you get it done early its barely even a thing, just a few cells.
"If abortion is murder swallowing is cannibalism"
The loss of a few cells is a lot better than bringing up a child if you dont want it, not only for the mothers sake, but the child also. imagine being bought up by a mother who didnt want you but was forced to keep you. thats why abortion should always be a option.

In the end its the mothers choice.

[StoppingTime]

Abortion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113747&highlight=Abortion)
Abortion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=132875&highlight=Abortion)
Abortion: Do you agree or disagree? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127658&highlight=Abortion)
Male Abortion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120380&highlight=Abortion)
Should Roe v. Wade be repealed? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126725&highlight=Abortion)
Pro life? No, Pro Choice. AHHHH (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120923&highlight=Abortion)
Outlaw abortion? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120916&highlight=Abortion)
Politics and sexuality/abortion (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php? t=120342&highlight=Abortion)
Abortion and Stem Cells (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=118994&highlight=Abortion)
Pro-Life Libertarians (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115729&highlight=Abortion)
Abortion? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=109116&highlight=Abortion)
teen abortion? (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104209&highlight=Abortion)
Abortion.. (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95386&highlight=Abortion)

Idk, this should give you some ideas.

I think abortion is murder but I understand that sometimes it's needed therefore some laws should limit why someone can get an abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal in the following situations:


Mothers life is in danger
The baby will live a life of pain and misery.
Rape.


I understand a lot of abortions (if not most) are because of those reasons above but I also know that some people use abortions as a form of birth control. I think that should be illegal.

Read through these threads, especially the posts written by Ida and Z. And then tell me if it's murder.

[Listed MIA]

my believes : abortion only if the girl was raped or molested or keeping the baby puts her health or life in danger, other then that babies are god blessing!
that baby can be the best thing in life ^_^

tell that to my mother. it really sucks being the kid of a mother that doesn't want you. i wish she'd done me a favour and had me aborted.

my opinion, well my opinion doesn't matter. i'm a guy so why should i have any say over what a woman does with her body. its not like i support abortion, but i do support a womans right to choose.

the king blues (great band but sadly they have split up) have this song, well its more like a poem read with music that pretty much sums up what i think "if you're pro life, i mean, if you're really pro LIFE then become a doctor or foster a kid, make it possible for people who are alive to live." quit concering yourself with the unborn, there are people out there who are already alive that are starving, dying of diseases we can't cure or being abused. go and help them.

[Gigablue]

I personally believe that abortion should be legal and is a basic right that all women should have. It is not an ideal solution and it would be better to prevent unwanted pregnancies or to put babies up for adoption but abortion should be an option and the choice of the woman.

It makes since in cases or rape or if the woman is a risk by continuing the pregnancy, as well as for genetic diseases. If the mother is not ready to raise a child and has an unwanted pregnancy, the baby would probably not have many opportunities in life. It is also likely that the mother will drop out of school and as a result have problems later in life.

I also don't think that abortion is murder since at the time most abortions a preformed, the fetus is a group of cells that would not be able to survive without the mother. I don't believe that life begins at conception but rather at birth or shortly before birith. There is no evidence that the fetus is sentient for most of the pregnancy.

The fetus should have rights but they should not overrule the rights of the woman. She should have the right to her own body and no one should be able to force her to carry a baby for nine months.

Also, in countries where abortion is illegal, women still get abortions but have to get them preformed dangerously and the risk is much higher.

[Jess]

I think abortion is murder but I understand that sometimes it's needed therefore some laws should limit why someone can get an abortion. I believe that abortion should be legal in the following situations:


Mothers life is in danger
The baby will live a life of pain and misery.
Rape.


I understand a lot of abortions (if not most) are because of those reasons above but I also know that some people use abortions as a form of birth control. I think that should be illegal.

a woman should always have the choice to an abortion no matter the situation. it's not your place or anyone else's to make the choice for her. It's her choice alone.

and it's not murder

[Zach_014]

I think that it is your choice.....yes you could be killing the man/woman that cures cancer, BUT you could also be stopping another hitler

[Gordo]

I think those of you who think abortion isn't murder and that it's just a couple of cells need to brush up on your biology. At some point the fetus is moving around an has fingers and toes and can hear and still be aborted.

Oh, let's not gloss over the term abortion and call it what it really is. It's pretty much using suction and sometimes tools to rip the kid to shreds and pull out the pieces. If someone did that to a kitten, they'd be in jail.

Note. idk one way or the other. I'm for it, but if that's what a woman wants to do, the law says she can, but lets call it what it is. I'm sure you could search up a good video of one on some anti-abortion site and it's shouldn't gross out anyone who thinks the fetus isn't yet human.

Again, I'm not for it or against it because I won't ever have to make that decision and I'd guess that anyone who has had one remembers that day well and it's kind of an anti-birthday for them. Right? It's not like anyone wants to have one. It's not like going to 6 flags or something. Probably really traumatic.

And for the people who are really religious, I think it would be more helpful to not condemn these people and be all up in their face. Your cause would be better served with quiet prayer at the same location where many protest. Lead by example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_evacuation

[Neptune]

Read through these threads, especially the posts written by Ida and Z. And then tell me if it's murder.

Nothing can really change my mind. I just see abortion as murder, plain and simple. If you continue the pregnancy, a person will likely be born and if you terminate, a person won't be born. Plain and simple.

[Fuzzyevil]

@Yes, actually it's a murder only in that case when the couples (married) do sex.
And the wife say; You're going to be a dad and if the baby is a girl then the man ask the woman to take step towards abortion. Here, abortion is use as killing a baby a.k.a murder.

[StoppingTime]

Nothing can really change my mind. I just see abortion as murder, plain and simple. If you continue the pregnancy, a person will likely be born and if you terminate, a person won't be born. Plain and simple.

Then please, don't post in a debate forum if you aren't going to be open minded. There's no point.

[Gigablue]

I think those of you who think abortion isn't murder and that it's just a couple of cells need to brush up on your biology. At some point the fetus is moving around an has fingers and toes and can hear and still be aborted.

Oh, let's not gloss over the term abortion and call it what it really is. It's pretty much using suction and sometimes tools to rip the kid to shreds and pull out the pieces. If someone did that to a kitten, they'd be in jail.

Most abortions are preformed by about 12-13 weeks, at which time the fetus is barely developed. It resembles a human but its brain is not yet capable of thought or feeling pain. Just because something looks human does not automatically mean it has the same rights as a person. If it were conscious, abortion would be murder but since it cannot feel, it's not murder.

Not all abortions use suction and rip the fetus apart. Most first trimester abortions are preformed by giving an oral medication that causes a miscarriage. Only later abortions use more drastic methods.

A kitten is very different from a fetus. It is not dependent on another living thing to remain alive. It is also capable of feeling.

[Neptune]

Then please, don't post in a debate forum if you aren't going to be open minded. There's no point.


Please, don't tell me what to do. The OP asked for my ''thoughts and views'' and I gave them.

[Akasuki]

If it's in your body, then I believe you can do anything you want to it.

[Electra Heart]

I'm pro-choice. If you want to, go ahead. I'm not saying that it's appropriate for EVERY situation, but under certain circumstances (including finances, imprisonment, and rape) it should absolutely be offered if the woman pregnant wishes to abort the fetus.

Even regardless of those circumstances if a woman wishes to abort her fetus she should be able to, regardless.

[EvilB]

I am pro-choice. I think it is so wrong to force woman no matter what to ruin there body's and have a child if they don't want to.

[Neverender]

Abortions should absolutely be legal. Imagine the life of a child growing up in a bad environment. Or imagine they're the product of rape.

And who the hell are the people against it to tell women that they don't have control over their own bodies. Until the fetus is able to survive outside of the womb, the woman should have absolute control over it. It's her body and the embryo is little more than a parasite until it becomes self-sustaining.

EDIT: For the people saying it's "Murder", it isn't "Murder". That doesn't make sense, and it's little more than an attempt to used Loaded Statements to try to morally persuade people.

[Bougainvillea]

I don't believe in any circumstances. You either have one, or you don't. Most of us will never even understand the pain a woman must go through when she gets an abortion, and that alone is more of a burden than what attitude society will throw at her later on.

Of course, there will always be women who are flat out irresponsible, but there are problems in every corner of this world, and there is really nothing we can do about it. Let them make their own mistakes. Because the number of people who actually need the procedure out-weighs the number of people who will abuse it.

It should always be her choice. If she can hand over the baby, and make decisions as a mother, then she should be able to take control of what is happening inside her own body. I'm tired of these debates because its always the same fucking response. The same uneducated, typical response that's just flung out there. "Rape babies, and danger babies can be aborted, but I don't car what other story you have and I know I know nothin about you but you are the scum of the earth if you have an abortion if not under those circumstances."

[Neverender]

Also, What kind of life do you expect that child to haveto endure. Maybe they'll grow up dirt poor, or around drugs or(although drugs aren't nearly as bad as) gang violence.

And if they're put up for adoption, maybe they'll spend life hopping from Foster family to foster family. That isn't much of a life either.

[Smeagol]

I believe that if the parents are unable to care for the baby or won't be able to care for it properly at that point in time, if the girl was raped, or if the baby is going to have serious defects then the baby should be aborted.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

If you don't give women the option to do it safely in a clean environment and they really want to have an abortion, they'll end up doing it in back of a dirty van parked in a dark alley way. I prefer not to argue about who's rights are more important, but rather the risk involved in not allowing legal abortions.

[Bath]

If you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Abortions still happen even if you vote for it to be illegal. Making abortions legal is making safe abortions legal.

There have been no studies that prove that abortion is linked to emotional trauma.

If I get pregnant in this time of my life, I would get an abortion because my kid would grow up pretty shitty. I am definitely not mom material and I don't have the money.

The whole "don't have sex if you don't want a kid" thing is so stupid, in my opinion. Sex is natural and we should be able to enjoy it without the consequences of pregnancy. There are times when contraceptives fail. A woman should have the choice to have a safe, clean abortion at a doctor's office, and move on with her life.

[RedViper]

What are your thoughts and views on it? I believe in abortion only if the girl was raped or molested. If you're 16, 17, or what ever age really, I believe if you're old enough to stick it in, you're old enough to raise the baby if the semen makes it to the egg.
That is exactly the same as my view on the subject

[Jess]

That is exactly the same as my view on the subject

what gives you the right to tell a girl she shouldn't have an abortion? Why should I (for example) have the baby when it's MY body and it'll ruin my education?

[Jupiter]

The only reason I am going to go with pro-choice is because I will never have to be faced with the fact that I will never have a living thing inside of me. I'm not a girl, I shouldn't make the decision.

[boonsim]

I am completely for abortion. It should be the mother's choice considering the baby is inside of her.

[Bluebird14]

I'm against abortion unless you've been raped but I'm also against banning abortion because if it's illegal people are just gonna do it themselves (belly flop, hot bath, etc) or go places that are sketchy and put themselves in danger too

[havingfun]

I am "Pro-Child" and feel that the most defenseless of us have the most basic right to live. I said Pro-Child and not pro-life as I still believe in the death penalty for murderers. By killing your unborn child, you are depriving the child the right do to what it wants with it's own body: The simple act of living. Which is why I find it ironic that people talk about the right of a woman to do what she wants with her body, but have no concern about the body inside of her which has it's own DNA.
What I cannot figure out is why liberals are all worried about a polar bear at the north pole living, but are all for killing unborn children.

[xBaskinRobbinsx]

I believe one should not ever have an aborted child; the child should be born, and if the mother doesn't want him, then put the him up for adoption, not kill him.
[He can be a formal way to use s/he.]

[StoppingTime]

I believe one should not ever have an aborted child; the child should be born, and if the mother doesn't want him, then put the him up for adoption, not kill him.
[He can be a formal way to use s/he.]

Except there is no "he" when an abortion takes place. There is an "it" which is not human.

[Gigablue]

By killing your unborn child, you are depriving the child the right do to what it wants with it's own body: The simple act of living.

It doesn't want anything. At the time most abortions are preformed, the brain is not developed enough to have thoughts. In order to want to live, you have to be able to think.

Which is why I find it ironic that people talk about the right of a woman to do what she wants with her body, but have no concern about the body inside of her which has it's own DNA.

Having DNA doesn't give it the same rights as a person. Bacteria have DNA, but they don't have the rights of a person. Also, the rights of the fetus are at best questionable, it can't think or feel pain. The rights of the woman, on the other hand, are definite and shouldn't be overruled.

[laurenspencer]

I don't like abortion but I'm not against it if the girl was raped or there was a medical condition.

[FreeFall]

My body, my right, my choice.
I'm all for abortion regardless of the circumstance. Yes I frown upon it being used as a birth control method, but it's that woman's blood and nutrients she'd have to share with the fetus and she's got every right to decide if she wants to continue that or not.

If you're so concerned with a child's life there are plenty of orphans for you to go and save.

[workingatperfect]

I personally could never, ever get one, and I am against abortion, but at the same time I think it should be legal.

I think the only reason one should get an abortion is if the pregnancy is detrimental to the mother's health. I think rape is a bad reason to kill the baby. You can put it up for adoption. Same with if you can't support it, adoption.

So maybe it should be legal in the case where the mother could die/ have major health complications because of the labor. But I don't know exactly how I feel about that. I guess I think women should have the choice because it IS their body..

[xBaskinRobbinsx]

Except there is no "he" when an abortion takes place. There is an "it" which is not human.

You get what I mean.

[StoppingTime]

You get what I mean.

No I don't. "He/she" and "it" are completely different.

[Jess]

I believe one should not ever have an aborted child; the child should be born, and if the mother doesn't want him, then put the him up for adoption, not kill him.
[He can be a formal way to use s/he.]

it's still the mother's choice. I wouldn't want to go through 9 months of pain just to give birth to a baby I don't want. and what if I have to get one to save my life?

[havingfun]

It doesn't want anything. At the time most abortions are preformed, the brain is not developed enough to have thoughts. In order to want to live, you have to be able to think.

Yet, but once the child is born it will. The child does have needs, even before it is born.



Having DNA doesn't give it the same rights as a person. Bacteria have DNA, but they don't have the rights of a person. Also, the rights of the fetus are at best questionable, it can't think or feel pain. The rights of the woman, on the other hand, are definite and shouldn't be overruled.


Humans and bacteria=Apples and Oranges, so your point there is moot. An unborn child can feel pain and has a heartbeat a lot sooner than you realize-21 days-sooner than most women realize they are pregnant. Using your analogy, a person in a coma cannot think or feel pain. So should we kill them off too?

Everybody has the right to do as they please, but those rights should not trump the rights of others. The woman's right to kill her baby is trumping the right of the baby to live, which is one of the most basic rights.

So what would have happened if you mother aborted you? You wouldn't be here debating this issue.

"Did you ever notice that all of the people that support abortion have already been born?" -Ronald Reagan

[Gigablue]

Yet, but once the child is born it will. The child does have needs, even before it is born.

But it isn't born. It can't feel or think. It may develop the will to live in the future, but at that time, it doesn't have it.

Humans and bacteria=Apples and Oranges, so your point there is moot. An unborn child can feel pain and has a heartbeat a lot sooner than you realize-21 days-sooner than most women realize they are pregnant. Using your analogy, a person in a coma cannot think or feel pain. So should we kill them off too?

The earliest estimates as to when a fetus can feel pain are around 20 weeks, with many doctors saying it could be several weeks later. By this point, the woman is certainly aware she is pregnant. The fact that it has a heartbeat is completely irrelevant.

As for a person in a coma, they aren't dependent on someone else to live, whereas the fetus is. By saying the fetus must be protected, you infringe on the rights of the woman. No one has their rights violated by keeping person in a coma. The specifics of what should happen to a person in a coma are more related to euthanasia than abortion.

Everybody has the right to do as they please, but those rights should not trump the rights of others. The woman's right to kill her baby is trumping the right of the baby to live, which is one of the most basic rights.

The woman is a fully formed, thinking, feeling human being. The fetus is not. As such, it's rights should not trump those of the woman. She isn't killing a baby, she is stopping it form being born. She should have the right to her own body. No one should be able to take that away form her.

So what would have happened if you mother aborted you? You wouldn't be here debating this issue.

If I had been aborted, I wouldn't care about it. The non-existent don't care about their non-existence.

"Did you ever notice that all of the people that support abortion have already been born?" -Ronald Reagan

The only people who do anything are those who are already born. This is totally irrelevant.

[Jess]

Yet, but once the child is born it will. The child does have needs, even before it is born.






Humans and bacteria=Apples and Oranges, so your point there is moot. An unborn child can feel pain and has a heartbeat a lot sooner than you realize-21 days-sooner than most women realize they are pregnant. Using your analogy, a person in a coma cannot think or feel pain. So should we kill them off too?

Everybody has the right to do as they please, but those rights should not trump the rights of others. The woman's right to kill her baby is trumping the right of the baby to live, which is one of the most basic rights.

So what would have happened if you mother aborted you? You wouldn't be here debating this issue.

"Did you ever notice that all of the people that support abortion have already been born?" -Ronald Reagan

it's not a baby. it's a clump of cells (in early pregnancy)

so you would let a woman be denied an abortion when it will save her life??

[havingfun]

it's not a baby. it's a clump of cells (in early pregnancy)

so you would let a woman be denied an abortion when it will save her life??

A fully grown human is also a clump of cells, just a few billion more.


If a woman's life is at stake, then that is a different story. It all depends on the circumstances at that point.

[Gigablue]

A fully grown human is also a clump of cells, just a few billion more.

A fully grown human can do much more than a fetus. The fetus can't think of feel for most to the pregnancy. A fully grown human has a much more developed brain, capable of thought, emotion, feeling, etc.

If a woman's life is at stake, then that is a different story. It all depends on the circumstances at that point.

So a woman should be forced to loan out her body for nine months, unless her life is in danger. She should have the right to her own body. Whether her life is in danger or not, she should be able to end the pregnancy if she wants to.

[havingfun]

But it isn't born. It can't feel or think. It may develop the will to live in the future, but at that time, it doesn't have it.



The earliest estimates as to when a fetus can feel pain are around 20 weeks, with many doctors saying it could be several weeks later. By this point, the woman is certainly aware she is pregnant. The fact that it has a heartbeat is completely irrelevant.

So much for calling it a clump of cells as so many of you do.

As for a person in a coma, they aren't dependent on someone else to live, whereas the fetus is. By saying the fetus must be protected, you infringe on the rights of the woman. No one has their rights violated by keeping person in a coma. The specifics of what should happen to a person in a coma are more related to euthanasia than abortion.

So what happens when you pull the plug on somebody who is in a coma? So much for them not depending on somebody else to live. Hoever, a person in a coma may have stated in advance whether they want to stay alive, so at least they may have had a choice to live.

As for the woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body, nobody stopped her from opening her legs to do what it takes to get pregnant. I don't see a right being violated there.



The woman is a fully formed, thinking, feeling human being. The fetus is not. As such, it's rights should not trump those of the woman. She isn't killing a baby, she is stopping it form being born. She should have the right to her own body. No one should be able to take that away form her.

A newborn baby is not fully formed and thinking either, so that makes no sense.

"She is stopping it from being born" -Um okay, how else do you stop a baby from being born other than killing it? The unborn baby has it's own body too. It is hypocritical to allow one group a set of right yet deny another's.

Are you opposed to seat belt laws because they are controlling what a women does with her body?



If I had been aborted, I wouldn't care about it. The non-existent don't care about their non-existence.

But I am sure you are much happier that you are alive.



The only people who do anything are those who are already born. This is totally irrelevant.

Further proving the need to protect the unborn, therefore it is not irrelevent. "The easiest way for evil to triumph is for good men (and women) to do nothing"

[Stacey.]

I'm totally pro-choice. It's should be entirely the mothers' decision of whether they want to have the baby or not.

[havingfun]

A fully grown human can do much more than a fetus. The fetus can't think of feel for most to the pregnancy. A fully grown human has a much more developed brain, capable of thought, emotion, feeling, etc. [QUOTE]

So a human should just start out as fully developed? Seems like that is what you are getting at



So a woman should be forced to loan out her body for nine months, unless her life is in danger. She should have the right to her own body. Whether her life is in danger or not, she should be able to end the pregnancy if she wants to.

You still don't get it. A person's rights should not be trumped by those who it depends on most. The woman made her choice when she had sex.


I am so glad that our country is going in the right direction and leaning more pro-child than ever before.

Killing your own child who is going to provide you with a lifetime of love is the ultimate act of selfishness. Someday when you have a child of your own (and I cannot wait until I do-just not for awhile), look into it's eyes and then tell me that you would have had the heart to kill it when it was inside of you.

[xXJust Jump ItXx]

Im totally okay with abortion, if the mother cant have the child for what ever the reason may be ... makes sense. If she was raped.... hell yes let her have an abortion! Now the mother choosing to have an abortion examples... teens, complications, etc. Really a 13 -14 that is pregnant.... yeah you shouldn't be pregnant at that age! To me if you cant live on your own and self support, dont have a kid.

[Jess]

Killing your own child who is going to provide you with a lifetime of love is the ultimate act of selfishness. Someday when you have a child of your own (and I cannot wait until I do-just not for awhile), look into it's eyes and then tell me that you would have had the heart to kill it when it was inside of you.

it's NOT killing a child. It's getting rid of a clump of cells! or a fetus that isn't even human yet!

[Mob Boss]

I would never have one, and don't necessarily like the idea of it, but who am I to tell someone she can't do what she wants to her body?

[Cicero]

I'm against abortion. The only exceptions, is if a girl was raped, or there might be a deathly consequence for the mother. But if there might be a condition with the child, I believe that the pregnancy should continue. Just be abuse theirs something wrong with the fetus doesn't mean we should instantly kill it, many people have conditions. But still enjoy life. If that makes sense (easier explanation. Don't kill something, just because it's not perfect)

[StoppingTime]

I'm against abortion. The only exceptions, is if a girl was raped, or there might be a deathly consequence for the mother. But if there might be a condition with the child, I believe that the pregnancy should continue. Just be abuse theirs something wrong with the fetus doesn't mean we should instantly kill it, many people have conditions. But still enjoy life. If that makes sense (easier explanation. Don't kill something, just because it's not perfect)

Why do you have the right to govern over what a woman does with her body?

[WaffleSingSong]

I am sort of pro-life, but I am even more pro-choice. Why do people try to climb into people's brains and try to figure them out and tell them what they can or can not do? It's a different mind-set, so get used to it.

[Cicero]

Why do you have the right to govern over what a woman does with her body?

Why should we allow someone to kill a baby in the making? Which, by the way, is a living human. The conception of life, is the fetus.

Also, if the girl decided to go without protection, she should be responsible for the consequences. As I said in the original post I made, the only accepting I believe is acceptable, is rape and a deathly consequence for the mother. But if the woman is mature enough to open her legs without protection, she's mature enough to raise a child. Everything has a consequence. I also have morals and values, so that's why I believe what I believe :)

So why do you think it's acceptable to kill a living fetus?

[FreeFall]

But if the woman is mature enough to open her legs without protection, she's mature enough to raise a child.
Ugh. This quote makes my skin crawl, I can't stand it. I don't even want to get started on the men, they always seem to get the free sex pass because they're not the fetus incubators. If she was given a conception chance of under 1%, do you think she feels like she even has a chance of becoming pregnant so what's the use of protection? She was essentially told that she was more than likely never going to conceive, she was basically sterile. What then? And no, she does not want the kid just because she was more than likely never going to be a mom. Should she still be forced to go through with something she doesn't want, doesn't need, and doesn't deserve? There's a big difference in being mature enough for sex, protection or not, and maturity to be a parent.

[Gaybaby94]

Abortion should be legal up to birth.

[Jess]

Why should we allow someone to kill a baby in the making? Which, by the way, is a living human. The conception of life, is the fetus.

Also, if the girl decided to go without protection, she should be responsible for the consequences. As I said in the original post I made, the only accepting I believe is acceptable, is rape and a deathly consequence for the mother. But if the woman is mature enough to open her legs without protection, she's mature enough to raise a child. Everything has a consequence. I also have morals and values, so that's why I believe what I believe :)

So why do you think it's acceptable to kill a living fetus?

because it's her body and her choice and no one should force her to have a baby if she doesn't want one!

[Thunduhbuhlt]

because it's her body and her choice and no one should force her to have a baby if she doesn't want one!

This. I don't like abortion, but it's not up to me, as I will never become pregnant and will never have to worry about giving birth and raising a child.

[havingfun]

it's NOT killing a child. It's getting rid of a clump of cells! or a fetus that isn't even human yet!

Just keep thinking that, you are not going to change my opinion. It is a child.

[Gaybaby94]

Just keep thinking that, you are not going to change my opinion. It is a child.

No it is not! If it is not out in the world and breathing, then it is not a human being.

[StoppingTime]

Just keep thinking that, you are not going to change my opinion. It is a child.

Then why do you enter debates if you don't even consider others' opinions, and along with that, evidence. Look back at one of the other thousand abortion threads in this board. Read through some scientific data, it wouldn't hurt, would it?

[Gigablue]

Just keep thinking that, you are not going to change my opinion. It is a child.

What makes it a child. It can't think or feel pain until just before it is born. It isn't really killing it if you stop the pregnancy. You're basically stopping it from becoming a human being.

Also, why debate if you already know that nothing will change your opinion.

[havingfun]

Then why do you enter debates if you don't even consider others' opinions, and along with that, evidence. Look back at one of the other thousand abortion threads in this board. Read through some scientific data, it wouldn't hurt, would it?


I have read through the scientific data, and it has now more than ever proving that life is truly starting closer to conception than what was previously thought. That's science, not religion saying that.


Funny how all of you are telling me not to get into these debate threads because it won't chage my mind, but then why are you all posting here on the subject? Is anything I am saying here going to change you minds? Probably not.

It is still a child even bofore it is born, no matter what you all think. Case closed.


I cannot wait for the day when the killing of unborn children will be looked back on as barbaric. I hope to see it in my lifetime. The trend has been going in life's favor as can be seen in the gallup polls over the last decade, especilly with people our age. We finally have the majority :yeah:

[StoppingTime]

I have read through the scientific data, and it has now more than ever proving that life is truly starting closer to conception than what was previously thought. That's science, not religion saying that.

Give me a link.
Now, here's some science with data, that I can show you [-](mostly because it actually exists)[/-]


Zygocyte: is the initial cell formed when two gamete cells are joined by means of sexual reproduction. In multicellular organisms, it is the earliest developmental stage of the embryo. In single-celled organisms, the zygote divides to produce offspring, usually through meiosis.

This is not life. This is an egg cell joined with a sperm cell. Along with that, it is not a person. It is a human, not a person. Therefore, how is it murder? Murder involves killing something that is alive.


Funny how all of you are telling me not to get into these debate threads because it won't chage my mind, but then why are you all posting here on the subject? Is anything I am saying here going to change you minds? Probably not.

If you provided me with sufficient evidence that there was truly life when the sperm and egg meet, yes. Alas, you cannot, because it isn't when life starts.:e


It is still a child even bofore it is born, no matter what you all think. Case closed.
No. It has the possibility of becoming a child.
Let's look at the definition of "child."
Child: A young human being below the age of full physical development (in this case, there has been -zero-) or below the legal age of majority.
A child is much more than the clump of cells which a zygote is.


I cannot wait for the day when the killing of unborn children

Nope, they aren't children.

will be looked back on as barbaric.

Why do you give a fuck? Honestly. You'll never have to go through pregnancy, or conceiving a child. Is it up to you whether women should have an abortion? If you don't agree with one, don't get one.



The trend has been going in life's favor as can be seen in the gallup polls over the last decade, especilly with people our age. We finally have the majority :yeah:

And the majority is always right, no?


Also, read this (http://www.virtualteen.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1425914&postcount=46), it's a good summary for you.

[Jess]

I cannot wait for the day when the killing of unborn children will be looked back on as barbaric. I hope to see it in my lifetime. The trend has been going in life's favor as can be seen in the gallup polls over the last decade, especilly with people our age. We finally have the majority :yeah:

that won't ever happen. women should and must always have access to safe abortion. it should always be THEIR CHOICE to make (how many times do I have to say that?)

[Cicero]

that won't ever happen. women should and must always have access to safe abortion. it should always be THEIR CHOICE to make (how many times do I have to say that?)

If they use unsafe sex, it's their fault and they should suffer the consequences. Other than if it's rape or a deathly consequence.


Then why do you enter debates if you don't even consider others' opinions
Why not consider his opinions and others about abortion killing a human?


And to others who believe its not killing a baby since it can't breathe, so it's ok to kill a baby who 3 months away from delivery, where you can distinctly tell that the baby has arms and reproduction body parts and a head, and feet?

By saying what you said, your being a hypocrite.

The thing is, is that people who believe abortion is killing a baby, have morals and values that are different from you. You believe killing something that's gonna turn into a living human being is ok, while I think killing something that's gonna turn into a living human being isnt ok.

[StoppingTime]

If they use unsafe sex, it's their fault and they should suffer the consequences. Other than if it's rape or a deathly consequence.

Even though you should have no say in the action's of others.


And stopping time. Your saying that his opinion should be changed, but in debates your opinion will never change.

I said he should keep an open mind. If someone were to come and tell me that a zygote is a child, with evidence, then I'd believe them, but that has yet to happen.

[Jess]

If they use unsafe sex, it's their fault and they should suffer the consequences. Other than if it's rape or a deathly consequence.

And stopping time. You're saying that his opinion should be changed, but in debates your opinion will never change.

you still have no right to tell them they can't have an abortion.

it's THEIR choice to make. THEIR bodies.

[havingfun]

.............

[Cicero]

you still have no right to tell them they can't have an abortion.

it's THEIR choice to make. THEIR bodies.

Their choice it to kill and destroy a life.

[Jess]

You're never going to become pregnant and go through 9 months of pain and sickness

abortion is a woman's right and there should be no interference from anyone


There was a time when the majority thought slavery was okay. Now we see how cruel it was, The majority once throught abortion was okay, and now people are finally coming to their senses. Abortion will be seen the same way someday, and you pro-choicers will be called ignorant and hate filled.

ignorant? how is it IGNORANT? it's about OUR (women's) CHOICES AND RIGHTS

[havingfun]

.............

[Jess]

right, a clump of cells is a child....>_>

[havingfun]

.............

[momo....]

omg abortion is a sin but please dont do it

[Cicero]

We have this thing called the internet, there are plenty of links there for you to find the evidence. Although I doubt you will take the time.




If the cells can split on their own, then it is life.





Swearing is a sign of desperation when losing an argument. I am sure the name calling will be next. If it is my sperm that helped cause conception, then it should also be my responsibility. If my GF/wife is carrying my child should I not be held responsible for it? Half of the genes are mine.





There was a time when the majority thought slavery was okay. Now we see how cruel it was, The majority once throught abortion was okay, and now people are finally coming to their senses. Abortion will be seen the same way someday, and you pro-choicers will be called ignorant and hate filled.

I agree

You're never going to become pregnant and go through 9 months of pain and sickness

abortion is a woman's right and there should be no interference from anyone




ignorant? how is it IGNORANT? it's about OUR (women's) CHOICES AND RIGHTS


As the other guy said, it's also the mans choice. Because it has his genes. The baby has 50 50 genes, the woman doesn't have more genes in the baby than the father. Oh, and the guys are gonna have to deal with the hormones, so in a sense, we are gonna have to go through sickness :P


right, a clump of cells is a child....>_>

Yes. Now your learning.

Why do you keep implying that condoms always work?

Ever heard of birth control? Ever heard of spermicide? There are many ways to prevent pregnancy without abortion.

[StoppingTime]

We have this thing called the internet, there are plenty of links there for you to find the evidence. Although I doubt you will take the time.


Then give me one. I don't need to take the time, you do. It's what you believe.



If the cells can split on their own, then it is life.

No, it isn't. A zygote does not have the same rights as a person. It isn't a person.





Swearing is a sign of desperation when losing an argument. I am sure the name calling will be next.

No, it is a sign that I cannot believe how ignorant you are being. I gave you data, you've given me nothing, and you still say you're right.


If it is my sperm that helped cause conception, then it should also be my responsibility. If my GF/wife is carrying my child should I not be held responsible for it? Half of the genes are mine.

Except for the fact that you aren't giving birth to it.

[Cicero]

Then give me one. I don't need to take the time, you do. It's what you believe.




No, it isn't. A zygote does not have the same rights as a person. It isn't a person.






No, it is a sign that I cannot believe how ignorant you are being. I gave you data, you've given me nothing, and you still say you're right.



Except for the fact that you aren't giving birth to it.

Give me a reason why abortion is good and that it's not killing a human. It's what you believe.

[StoppingTime]

Give me a reason why abortion is good and that it's not killing a human. It's what you believe.

I never said it was "good." I said that a woman should have complete control over her own body.

[Christheman]

My thoughts: abortion should be legal. If you dont agree on abortion, very simple, dont get one.

The idea of it being murder and cruel, yeah sure maybe I really dont know. BUT you cant tell a woman or girl or who ever it is what to do. Especially guys, and especially old smelly men, you cant just say it is wrong because you are not in their situation and you never will be.

If you dont want to have a child and you cant get an abortion, bringing an unwanted child into the world is cruel- more cruel then killing it as a fetus. Sure there are many people who want children and cant have them,fine, but there are also million of kids dying of starvation in slave labour and homeless. The world is overpopulated, having a kid when you dont want one is stupid.

I think the decision is the mothers and maybe the fathers, nothing to do with the rest of the world.


Edit: but then again, if I was pregnant im unsure I would want an abortion.. cause like it would be my baby so I would want to protect it... but hey im not preggers so its irrelevant.

I agree everyone single word

[Jess]

As the other guy said, it's also the mans choice. Because it has his genes. The baby has 50 50 genes, the woman doesn't have more genes in the baby than the father. Oh, and the guys are gonna have to deal with the hormones, so in a sense, we are gonna have to go through sickness :P

they don't have to give birth. what about pain? men don't have to go through 9 months of pain.

Yes. Now you're learning.

I was being sarcastic. A clump of cells is not a freaking child.

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic too.


Ever heard of birth control? Ever heard of spermicide? There are many ways to prevent pregnancy without abortion.

Yes and yes. but birth control is not 100% effective. and when a woman faces an unwanted pregnancy, she should have the right to an abortion. safe, legal abortion. and not have one in a dark alley


I never said it was "good." I said that a woman should have complete control over her own body.


exactly what I would say.

[Cicero]

I never said it was "good." I said that a woman should have complete control over her own body.

Here (http://m.gty.org/resources/Sermons/80-14_The-Biblical-View-of-Abortion-Part-1)
Abortion is murder. Hardcore proof. If you have sensitive eyes. Please dont click on link. (http://godvoter.org/abortion-is-murder.html)
Even more proof (http://ehealthforum.com/health/topic44704.html#b)
Once again. Not for sensitive eyes. But if you wanna see exactly what your defending. Click. (http://pro-lifetube.com/videos/262/abortion-watch-it-if-you-can)
My last proof and evidence (http://www.gospelway.com/morality/abortion.php)

Look at the links I provided. This, is what your defending. I hope you feel proud and happy your defending this. I sure wouldn't, I'd feel disgusted and sickened to even think this is right. But you guys think it's right to do all that. Now I think you all don't have much morals and values, it's pretty evident cause this is what your defending.

[Gaybaby94]

There was a time when the majority thought slavery was okay. Now we see how cruel it was, The majority once throught abortion was okay, and now people are finally coming to their senses. Abortion will be seen the same way someday, and you pro-choicers will be called ignorant and hate filled.

How will I be the ignorant one? You or anybody else have no right to tell a women what to do with her body. Only pro-llifers are the ignorant ones.

@Jess, I completely agree with you on every thing in this thread.

[Jess]

oh, I guess if abortion is murder, we should put all the women who have had abortions in jail for life because they murdered, including rape victims who had abortions and those who had abortions to save their lives.


First link: Sermon. Don't get proof from sermons. Especially hardcore Christian ones.
Second link: God voter.org SKIP!
Third link: By the end of the second week.... So get it done before then.
Fifth link: Gospel. SKIP!
----

Get your facts from unbiased sources, not people's opinion filled websites.

my thoughts exactly.

[StoppingTime]

First link: Sermon. Don't get proof from sermons. Especially hardcore Christian ones.
Second link: God voter.org SKIP!
Third link: By the end of the second week.... So get it done before then.
Fifth link: Gospel. SKIP!
----

Get your facts from unbiased sources, not people's opinion filled websites.

[Gaybaby94]

Dear pro lifers, let's make some logic here. If you say abortion is murder, then that makes masturbation genocide. Based on your logic or lack thereof.

[Cicero]

First link: Sermon. Don't get proof from sermons. Especially hardcore Christian ones.
Second link: God voter.org SKIP!
Third link: By the end of the second week.... So get it done before then.
Fifth link: Gospel. SKIP!
----

Get your facts from unbiased sources, not people's opinion filled websites.

Who gives a fuck what the site says. It has scientific fucking evidence. So your the one who's fucking biased. Those fucking sites arent biased they had fucking evidence. Did you see those pictures? Those are sick, and that's what your defending. So your wrong. You probably didn't even look at any of them. You just looked at the link and said oh fuck this it's Christian. You didn't even look at anything. It has some hardcore fucking evidence in their. What you believe in, is twisted and sick, if you even looked at those pictures. You would probably like it, cause your defending dead babies. You have no conscience apparently.

What evidence you givin? NONE

[StoppingTime]

Who gives a fuck what the site says. It has scientific I fucking evidence. So your the one who's fucking biased. Those fucking sites arent biased they had fucking evidence. Did you see those fucking pictures? Those are sick, and that's what your defending. So your wrong. You probably didn't even look at any of the,. You just looked at the link and said oh fuck this it's Christian. You didn't even look at anything. It has some hardcore fucking evidence in their.

What evidence you givin? NONE

If you're going to defend pastor's and "Godvoters" who only believes the Bible is right, then so be it. I'm done arguing with you.

[Cicero]

If you're going to defend pastor's and "Godvoters" who only believes the Bible is right, then so be it. I'm done arguing with you.

No, you didn't even look at it. Your so immature.


how abortion is... (I hope you have the intelligence to read this)
Here is how these babies are killed as they grow in their mother's womb.
D & C or Dilatation and Curettage Abortion
This method is common during the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. A tiny hoe-like instrument, the curette, is inserted into the womb through the dilated cervix. The abortionist then scrapes the wall of the uterus, cutting the baby's body to pieces.
Suction Abortion
This technique, pioneered in Communist China, is common for early pregnancies. A powerful suction tube is inserted into the womb; then the body of the developing baby is torn to pieces and sucked into a jar. Even early in pregnancy body parts are recognizable as arms, legs, etc. There is ultra-sound evidence that the baby feels the pain (as in the movie "The Silent Scream").
Salt Poisoning
This has been used in advanced pregnancies. A needle is inserted through the mother's abdomen, and a strong salt solution is injected into the amniotic fluid that surrounds the child. The baby is slowly poisoned and burned by the salt it swallows and "breathes." The mother then goes into labor and expels a grotesque, shriveled baby. Some babies are born alive but deformed.
Hysterotomy or Cesarean Section Abortion
This method is used in the last trimester of pregnancy. The womb is entered by surgery. Then the tiny baby is killed and removed.
Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
Hormone-like compounds are injected into the muscle of the uterus, causing it to contract intensely and push out the developing baby. Many babies are born alive.
Dilatation & Extraction ("Partial Birth Abortion")
In this late-term method, the doctor uses forceps to remove the baby from the womb. The head, however, is too big to be extracted. So the abortionist cuts a hole in the base of the skull, suctions out the brain, crushes the skull, and then removes the baby. (See Lake County Right-to-Life Newsletter, 4&5/93.)
Newer methods include the "morning after" pill, which may allow conception and then causes the fertilized egg to be expelled from the womb. Note that many so-called "contraceptives" (such as the I.U.D. and even some forms of the "pill") may have a similar effect. Ask your doctor how a "contraceptive" works before using it.

"even the baby feels pain..."

[Gaybaby94]

Who gives a fuck what the site says. It has scientific fucking evidence. So your the one who's fucking biased. Those fucking sites arent biased they had fucking evidence. Did you see those pictures? Those are sick, and that's what your defending. So your wrong. You probably didn't even look at any of them. You just looked at the link and said oh fuck this it's Christian. You didn't even look at anything. It has some hardcore fucking evidence in their. What you believe in, is twisted and sick, if you even looked at those pictures. You would probably like it, cause your defending dead babies. You have no conscience apparently.

What evidence you givin? NONE

See when some redneck conservative brings religious bullshit into the argument, I'm done. Religion has no place in my marriage or a woman's uterus. Keep your ignorant beliefs to yourself. But please don't force your hatred and bigotry on others. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Cicero]

See when some redneck conservative brings religious bullshit into the argument, I'm done. Religion has no place in my marriage or a woman's uterus. Keep your ignorant beliefs to yourself. But please don't force your hatred and bigotry on others. Thank you and have a nice day.

It's actually not redneck. It's actually not hatred, defending a human life.

[Gaybaby94]

It's actually not redneck. It's actually not hatred, defending a human life.

Well I call it being an ignorant jerk. Why do you care what a woman does with her body? Are you the one who will make the decisions for them? I have sen the pictures before, but I still believe women deserve to have the right to an abortion if they want to. It's not that I dont care about babies, I just think women deserve to have rights to their own body. And a clump of cells may be life, but so is an egg. We take away the offspring of chickens and they don't have any consent at all. If the fetus is out of the womb and breathing, then it is a baby, but before that is still part of the woman and therefore her choice.

[FreeFall]

No body with a bible is going to tell me what to do with MY womb. It's not your womb, it's not his. It's none of your dang business what a woman does with herself, is what she's doing even affecting you? You're not the one that'll be going through the hormones, the body changes, the vomits, the exams, contractions and finally having a small hole become the size of a melon just to squeeze out "life" that may tear the woman. When you become pregnant it's not just bake the baby, give birth and that's it. If abortion's made illegal we will see a surge in deaths of pregnant women. They will not have access to the needed professionals, they will do it themselves. We will then lose both the pregnant woman and the fetus, but I guess it's the lesser of two evils if they both die then. I do not believe in your god, do not force that upon me.

[Cicero]

No body with a bible is going to tell me what to do with MY womb. It's not your womb, it's not his. It's none of your dang business what a woman does with herself, is what she's doing even affecting you? If abortion's made illegal we will see a surge in deaths of pregnant women. They will not have access to the needed professionals, they will do it themselves. We will then lose both the pregnant woman and the fetus, but I guess it's the lesser of two evils if they both die then. I do not believe in your god, do not force that upon me.

The lesser of the two evils is losing the baby. And it's also the fathers decision. Just as much as the woman's, the baby has 50% of his own genes. Any mother would do anything for her child.

Which is better, having someone live another 40 years or having a child live 80+ years?

[FreeFall]

The lesser of the two evils is losing the baby. And it's also the fathers decision. Just as much as the woman's, the baby has 50% of his own genes. Any mother would do anything for her child.

Which is better, having someone live another 40 years or having a child live 80+ years?
Frankly, the person that'll live for 40 more years.

Well, that's tough but you know the fetus will be 100% supplied by the woman until she gives birth and basically be a parasite if unwanted. But what do you want? You want a woman that had a one nightstand with a man, to seek him out, tell him she's pregnant and everything's hunky dory? You want the wife/girlfriend/fiancee to just live for the next 9 months unhappy with what's going on, because her husband/boyfriend/fiance decided that HE wants the child she'd rather not birth? A woman's choice is going to trump the man's, his child or not. Even if it's the father that wants to abort and the mom wants to keep it. It's still her body. Just because 50% of him will be growing inside of her does not mean she must submit her body to him and let the fetus grow, her unwilling, because the man wants to be a father. If the father says no, the women typically leaves him and becomes a single mom. Her body, her choice. They must decide to have a child together, not one say abort while the other cries no.

[Cicero]

Frankly, the person that'll live for 40 more years.

Well, that's tough but you know the fetus will be 100% supplied by the woman until she gives birth and basically be a parasite if unwanted. But what do you want? You want a woman that had a one nightstand with a man, to seek him out, tell him she's pregnant and everything's hunky dory? You want the wife/girlfriend/fiancee to just live for the next 9 months unhappy with what's going on, because her husband/boyfriend/fiance decided that HE wants the child she'd rather not birth? A woman's choice is going to trump the man's, his child or not. Even if it's the father that wants to abort and the mom wants to keep it. It's still her body. Just because 50% of him will be growing inside of her does not mean she must submit her body to him and let the fetus grow, her unwilling, because the man wants to be a father. If the father says no, the women typically leaves him and becomes a single mom. Her body, her choice. They must decide to have a child together, not one say abort while the other cries no.

Apparently I'm the only one who values human life.

[FreeFall]

Apparently I'm the only one who values human life.
Simply because we're for women having a choice of removing a lump of cells from her body, we may as well be running about in a mass killing spree slaughtering every person we pass?
It's because of my own values and morals, that I feel a woman's womb and body should not be ruled by the government.

[Cicero]

Surprisingly I see where you all are coming from, somewhat. I guess it's like spanking. It's not child abuse. But the government shouldn't get involved in the business of parents how they punish their kids, although I don't agree with spanking the government shouldn't get involved. I do not agree with abortion, but I see where everyone is coming from (once again somewhat).

[OregonStateDude]

I haven't thought about this too much, mainly because I'm not a girl, I guess.

Anyways, I'm leaning towards it's the woman's right to abort the fetus, especially if she is only a teenager. An unwanted kid at that age will only screw up her life and her parents lives.

Now yes, we can talk about having her keep the kid and giving it up for adoption. But wouldn't that be more emotionally unsettling for a teenage girl, knowing she probably won't ever see her son or daughter ever again?

It's situations like this that make me kinda happy that I am what I am (homosexual). Because I can say with 99% certainty that I'm never going to get a girl in trouble.

[Jess]

Apparently I'm the only one who values human life.

and we all respect the woman's right to make the decision, and not have OTHER PEOPLE (especially men) or the government make it for her

[Abigballofdust]

Apparently I'm the only one who values human life.

You value nothing but you own sick and wicked sense of righteousness and morality.
An unwanted pregnancy WILL become an unwanted child. Do you want a 15 year old that had protected sex with her boyfriend but the condom broke to keep a baby only because you value human life? Who are you anyway? A higher being, God's projection on Earth?
Everybody is entitled to a free choice, a fetus has no choice because it is not human. It is a human fetus, nothing more.
Bringing an unwanted child to life is a bad choice anyways, you'll either give him off for adoption (who knows if he gets adopted anyways) or you can keep it and live day by day with a child you did not want, with a mistake of your younger age, with somebody that will impose his stigma on you, with somebody that will kill your future career, etc...

On the other side, there's the problem of many couples taking abortion as an easy way out of unwanted pregnancies and continue to have unprotected sex. I personally know of a girl that went under the knife two times because she got pregnant, and guess what's going on now? She is pregnant the third time, but she decided to keep it. She is 19, all 3 pregnancies were unwanted and were all fruit of the same father.
Now, I understand you may have fucked up, but going into sex with the idea of 'I'm going to get an abortion, so who cares' is just stupid. You got millions of ways to protect yourself, if you're dumb enough not to tell your equally dumb boyfriend to slide a condom on that fucking dick, then you're both better off castrated, so you don't bring anything that stupid to this world. You don't want plastic in your vagina? Take pills or if you don't want chemistry into you, check a damn female calendar online... it's the most natural solution...
However, all this is better than bringing an unwanted child to life, better for the mother, the father, the environment around the two and better for the future child as well.

Tacitus, you or somebody like you, said a few pages back that if a woman is mature enough to open her legs she should be mature enough to suffer consequences. Now, if you really believe a child is something one should suffer, then my suggestion is you revise parenthood, because you may be slightly off route here.

[havingfun]

.............

[StoppingTime]

Someday many years from now you and all of your lib friends will see it in hindsight.

This is what I don't understand. Why is abortion, gay marriage, and any of these other issues a political problem? Why is one's political views based on things the government should have nothing to do with?

[havingfun]

Apparently I'm the only one who values human life.

I do too, and so do 51% of Americans, according to Gallup.

See when some redneck conservative brings religious bullshit into the argument, I'm done. Religion has no place in my marriage or a woman's uterus. Keep your ignorant beliefs to yourself. But please don't force your hatred and bigotry on others. Thank you and have a nice day.



From my point of view you hate children, so I guess we're even then

Posts merged ~ Mike/ImCoolBeans

[FreeFall]

This is what I don't understand. Why is abortion, gay marriage, and any of these other issues a political problem? Why is one's political views based on things the government should have nothing to do with?
This my frustration.
If I ever get pregnant and wish to terminate it, will big brother know that I've thrown my self down a flight of stairs countless times because they have taken away my right to my own womb? Will they be making investigations on miscarriages next?

For you to care more about a mass of cells residing within me, than you do my own happiness, my own life, and feel you have control over myself and well being is a slap in the face as a member of society and the human race.

Edited to add: for those against taking away a fetus's chance to become a baby, should we get rid of all bc as well? Afterall, it's job is to keep a fetus from ever forming when it's being used.

[Gigablue]

I do too, and so do 51% of Americans, according to Gallup.

This is an irrelevant argument from popularity. Just because many people believe something doesn't make it right or true.

From my point of view you hate children, so I guess we're even then

The fetus isn't a child. It's a group of cells inside the mother, that couldn't survive without the her. It can't think or feel. How is it a child?

[Human]

If they want to have an abortion then they should have an abortion. As long as the two parents agree on the decision and it is before a certain amount of time.

What would be the point keeping an unloved child... or just giving it away to foster care or an orphanage, it would be worse for the child.

[Harlequin]

abortion is the womans choice.

though a wife should consult a husband about the choice.

and a girl should consult the family.

nuff said, after this we get into games no one wants to play.

[angelslove1998]

ooooohhh dear. dont even get me started on abortion (hot topic)

Call me old fashioned but i believe abortion is wrong and i would in-fact consider it murder.

but that's just my personal beliefs

SAME!!!! I FREAK OUT ABOUT THE IDEA OF ABORTION!! Its just so... i dont know, maybe WRONG!!!!:mad:

[ets99]

Abortion should be legal, under any circumstance. It's your body, and it's your life. Also, unwanted children get put into orphanages. There money is used to take care of most who won't be adopted. Do the math. The cost of raising a single child is approximately $250,000. If there is 500,000 orphans, in America alone, by the time each child is old enough to be alone the total estimates to around 125 billion dollars. That's why I believe abortion should be legal.

[Jess]

abortion is the womans choice.

though a wife should consult a husband about the choice.

and a girl should consult the family.

nuff said, after this we get into games no one wants to play.

a girl might not want to consult the family if they're abusive or will prevent her from having one


SAME!!!! I FREAK OUT ABOUT THE IDEA OF ABORTION!! Its just so... i dont know, maybe WRONG!!!!:mad:

you think it's wrong - then you personally won't ever get an abortion. but it should still be one's OWN choice to make, not others'

[havingfun]

.............

[xXoblivionXx]

I'm mostly anti-abortion except for certain circumstances. Ex: rape, the health of the mother is at stake, the baby is in danger, etc.

[Jean Poutine]

You liberals are so determind to get the last word on this, no matter how wrong you are.

Who made you the absolute authority on what is right and wrong?

[Darknova8]

I recently saw a video that completely changed my thoughts on the topic.
I believe abortion should be illegal at all times and in any circumstances.


180:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

Sorry not sure how to put the idea directly here.

[StoppingTime]

I recently saw a video that completely changed my thoughts on the topic.
I believe abortion should be illegal at all times and in any circumstances.


180:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7y2KsU_dhwI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You can't use HTML. use URL after /watch?v= here
--
Anyway, if you don't approve of the procedure, don't get one. Wait, you'll never need an abortion. What right do you have to tell people who may want one?

[Darknova8]

You can't use HTML.
--
Anyway, if you don't approve of the procedure, don't get one. Wait, you'll never need an abortion. What right do you have to tell people who may want one?

I just believe it's wrong.
I won't force someone to not do it.
I just felt like posting my opinion, I believe abortion is murder no matter when you think life officially starts. Your terminating a potential life before it even has the choice to stop you.

[FreeFall]

You liberals are so determind to get the last word on this, no matter how wrong you are.
Nothing in this debate it right or wrong. It's all feelings and a personal stance.

Just like I personally feel a law against abortion is the government forcing its power over my body. They then "own" me by dictating what I can and cannot do with my pregnancy and my own uterus. I frankly don't find much appeal living in a dictatorship, I'd probably have to leave the states.

[Darknova8]

Nothing in this debate it right or wrong. It's all feelings and a personal stance.

Just like I personally feel a law against abortion is the government forcing its power over my body. They then "own" me by dictating what I can and cannot do with my pregnancy and my own uterus. I frankly don't find much appeal living in a dictatorship, I'd probably have to leave the states.

I honestly don't believe its the women's choice.
The embryo I believe is alive so yes your murdering it.
I believe that's wrong.

[Gigablue]

I recently saw a video that completely changed my thoughts on the topic.
I believe abortion should be illegal at all times and in any circumstances.


180:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2KsU_dhwI

Sorry not sure how to put the idea directly here.

This video basically says that abortion is analogous to the holocaust. There is a major difference. Everyone killed in the holocaust was killed for no reason. With abortion, you have to weigh the rights of the fetus against those of the mother. The victims of the holocaust weren't dependent on another person to live, therefore is different from abortion, where the fetus depends on the mother. The rights of the mother are more important than those of the fetus. The fetus can't think or feel. The mother shouldn't be forced to loan her body to it for nine months.

I honestly don't believe its the women's choice.
The embryo I believe is alive so yes your murdering it.
I believe that's wrong.

The embryo is alive, but not a human being. At its most developed, the embryo has a very primitive nervous system. The neural tube has just recently closed and is incapable of thought or consciousness.

The embryo becomes a fetus eight weeks after the pregnancy starts. The brain development continues, but it is still incapable of thought for many more months. It can't feel pain until at least 20 weeks, and can't think until later.

Just because something is alive, doesn't mean it is conscious.

[Jess]

You liberals are so determind to get the last word on this, no matter how wrong you are.

who said we are wrong? do you decide what's wrong and right?


I honestly don't believe its the women's choice.
The embryo I believe is alive so yes your murdering it.
I believe that's wrong.

what the hell, how is it NOT the woman's choice? it's HER BODY.

and by all means, if a woman is raped, she has EVERY RIGHT to an abortion.

what about little girls who become pregnant from rape? are you going to force them to have a baby?

not only that, what if a woman has to have an abortion to save her life? is having the baby more important than saving the woman's life? the baby might not come out alive anyways. if you deny a woman an abortion in this situation, she will die

as Gigablue said, the embryo is not a human being. if killing something that's alive should be illegal, then that means we should arrest people for stepping on ants.

[Darknova8]

This video basically says that abortion is analogous to the holocaust. There is a major difference. Everyone killed in the holocaust was killed for no reason. With abortion, you have to weigh the rights of the fetus against those of the mother. The victims of the holocaust weren't dependent on another person to live, therefore is different from abortion, where the fetus depends on the mother. The rights of the mother are more important than those of the fetus. The fetus can't think or feel. The mother shouldn't be forced to loan her body to it for nine months.



The embryo is alive, but not a human being. At its most developed, the embryo has a very primitive nervous system. The neural tube has just recently closed and is incapable of thought or consciousness.

The embryo becomes a fetus eight weeks after the pregnancy starts. The brain development continues, but it is still incapable of thought for many more months. It can't feel pain until at least 20 weeks, and can't think until later.

Just because something is alive, doesn't mean it is conscious.

It may not be conscious but it's still alive as you said.
So wouldn't this still be murder?

who said we are wrong? do you decide what's wrong and right?




what the hell, how is it NOT the woman's choice? it's HER BODY.

and by all means, if a woman is raped, she has EVERY RIGHT to an abortion.

what about little girls who become pregnant from rape? are you going to force them to have a baby?

not only that, what if a woman has to have an abortion to save her life? is having the baby more important? the baby might not come out alive anyways.

as Gigablue said, the embryo is not a human being. if killing something that's alive should be illegal, then that means we should arrest people for stepping on ants.

What about the child’s body and her choice? Again, make the distinction that
there are two different bodies that we are talking about.

I merged your posts for you, please use the "edit" button instead of double posting. ~Bath/Bethany

[Jess]

no because it's not a person.

murder is killing a person


What about the child’s body and her choice? Again, make the distinction that
there are two different bodies that we are talking about.

a "child" that may not even be fully developed.

you have no right to tell a woman she can't have an abortion just because YOU think it's wrong.

[Darknova8]

no because it's not a person.

murder is killing a person

No, he or she is a person with great potential. A “person” is just a valuable
human being who has rights. An unborn child is alive, human, and a member of
our species who is developing into a fully grown human being. Shouldn’t we
treat them and all human beings equally under the law?

[Jess]

I believe abortion should be illegal at all times and in any circumstances.

even when the girl/woman is raped or her health is at stake? what if the girl is 13 years old?

if anything abortion should be legal in those circumstances. but making abortion illegal won't help. women'll just go back to the more dangerous ways. it's better to have a SAFE abortion

[Gigablue]

It may not be conscious but it's still alive as you said.
So wouldn't this still be murder?

Why is it murder? Many things are alive. If killing any living thing is murder, killing plants to eat them is murder and farming is genocide.

What about the child’s body and her choice? Again, make the distinction that
there are two different bodies that we are talking about.

What child? A child is a human being, a fetus is not.

No, he or she is a person with great potential. A “person” is just a valuable
human being who has rights. An unborn child is alive, human, and a member of
our species who is developing into a fully grown human being. Shouldn’t we
treat them and all human beings equally under the law?

It may have the potential to become a human being, but at the time of the abortion, it is not one.

[Darknova8]

even when the girl/woman is raped or her health is at stake? what if the girl is 13 years old?

if anything abortion should be legal in those circumstances. but making abortion illegal won't help. women'll just go back to the more dangerous ways. it's better to have a SAFE abortion

Ok I guess you convinced me in those circumstances it is justifiable to have an abortion.
But if the person has the means to provide for the child then abortion should not be an option.

[Gigablue]

Ok I guess you convinced me in those circumstances it is justifiable to have an abortion.
But if the person has the means to provide for the child then abortion should not be an option.

A woman may have the means to care for a child, but she may not be able to give it a good life. Also, she shouldn't have to make that sacrifice and raise a child before she's ready. She also shouldn't have to loan her body to a fetus for nine months, then give birth.

[Darknova8]

A woman may have the means to care for a child, but she may not be able to give it a good life. Also, she shouldn't have to make that sacrifice and raise a child before she's ready. She also shouldn't have to loan her body to a fetus for nine months, then give birth.

We could just euthanize those children in their sleep, is that a good solution to
bad life? We wouldn’t tolerate killing born children with unhappy lives, so why do
we tolerate killing unborn children who will have unhappy lives?

Your not loaning your body, aren’t parents supposed to take care of and support their children?
How does a child living inside their parent change that?

but making abortion illegal won't help. women'll just go back to the more dangerous ways. it's better to have a SAFE abortion


Rape is illegal but there are still many rapes, should we do away with that law?

Posts merged. Please use the "edit" button to add more to a post.~Bath/Bethany

[havingfun]

.................

[Darknova8]

The number of illegal abortions prior to 1973 were so few that the number was insignificant, I believe it was 3000 a year on average-A drop in the bucket compared to the 1 million plus abortions every year. If anything, outlawing abortion would make people more responsible sexually- less casual sleeping around (fewer STDs would also be a benefit), more contraception, and accepting resposibility for one's actions.

Wow, if I didn't sound like my parents just now.....

Indeed.
Well put.

[Gigablue]

The number of illegal abortions prior to 1973 were so few that the number was insignificant, I believe it was 3000 a year on average-A drop in the bucket compared to the 1 million plus abortions every year.

I don't know where you got 3 000 abortions per year. The number of illegal abortions in the united states before 1973 per year is estimated to be between 200 000 and 1 200 000. Each year, illegal abortions caused between 5 000 and 15 000 deaths.

[Darknova8]

It's acully 700,000 its not nearly as close as 1,200,000.

[havingfun]

.................

[Gigablue]

Here is a source with a better number:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp

Then again when you think about it, how could you get an accurate number when it is being done illegally? Not like the people doing it are going to admit to something illegal.

I agree that it's difficult to accurately measure illegal abortions. The sources I found are different, however.

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?compID=100&id=20
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html

This site also has a link to prove that it is not "Just a clump of cells", and it is not full of religious preaching.

I assume you are referring to this part of the site.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_9438MS.asp

This site details the growth of the fetus, but doesn't prove that it isn't a clump of cells. It shows how the fetus' organs develop, but the only organ that matters is the brain. The others may make it look human, but don't make it human being.

Brain development starts at about 4 weeks, when the ectoderm forms the neural plate. By 8 weeks, the neural plate has formed the neural tube, the beginning of the brain. Over the next few months, the nervous system continues to develop. New nerve cells are formed and migrate outward. They start to form synapses within a few months. During these months, the brain is much less developed than it is for a child. As a result, the fetus is not conscious.

This site claims that the fetus can feel pain after four and a half months. This is highly controversial. Many doctors think that fetuses can only feel pain after 29-30 weeks. This would make sense, the brain starts to fold at about 28 weeks. This increases the neural activity of the fetus. It is still unlikely that the fetus would be conscious at this time.

Myelination of the brain only starts at 8 months. This is very important for thought, without it, the brain is inefficient. It is likely that the fetus wouldn't be able to think until this starts. The initial myelination affects the motor and sensory areas of the brain, not the frontal cortex, responsible for much of conscious thought.

It is unlikely that the fetus is able to feel pain or think for most of the pregnancy. Therefore, it cannot be considered a human being until birth or shortly before.

[Darknova8]

I agree that it's difficult to accurately measure illegal abortions. The sources I found are different, however.

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?compID=100&id=20
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html



I assume you are referring to this part of the site.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_9438MS.asp

This site details the growth of the fetus, but doesn't prove that it isn't a clump of cells. It shows how the fetus' organs develop, but the only organ that matters is the brain. The others may make it look human, but don't make it human being.

Brain development starts at about 4 weeks, when the ectoderm forms the neural plate. By 8 weeks, the neural plate has formed the neural tube, the beginning of the brain. Over the next few months, the nervous system continues to develop. New nerve cells are formed and migrate outward. They start to form synapses within a few months. During these months, the brain is much less developed than it is for a child. As a result, the fetus is not conscious.

This site claims that the fetus can feel pain after four and a half months. This is highly controversial. Many doctors think that fetuses can only feel pain after 29-30 weeks. This would make sense, the brain starts to fold at about 28 weeks. This increases the neural activity of the fetus. It is still unlikely that the fetus would be conscious at this time.

Myelination of the brain only starts at 8 months. This is very important for thought, without it, the brain is inefficient. It is likely that the fetus wouldn't be able to think until this starts. The initial myelination affects the motor and sensory areas of the brain, not the frontal cortex, responsible for much of conscious thought.

It is unlikely that the fetus is able to feel pain or think for most of the pregnancy. Therefore, it cannot be considered a human being until birth or shortly before.

How can something that’s growing not be alive?
Biology says that the fetus is alive, and abortion makes it dead, isn’t
that killing?
also
Newborns can’t think like us, and people in comas can’t feel. Can we kill them?

[Gigablue]

How can something that’s growing not be alive?
Biology says that the fetus is alive, and abortion makes it dead, isn’t
that killing?

I never said the fetus wasn't alive. I said it wasn't a human being. A plant is alive, but it isn't a human being.

Newborns can’t think like us, and people in comas can’t feel. Can we kill them?

No. Neither of them are dependent on another person's body to live. A fetus can't survive without the mother, therefore her rights need to be taken into consideration. Newborns and people in comas don't depend on another persons body, therefore the only people to consider are them.

[Darknova8]

I never said the fetus wasn't alive. I said it wasn't a human being. A plant is alive, but it isn't a human being.



No. Neither of them are dependent on another person's body to live. A fetus can't survive without the mother, therefore her rights need to be taken into consideration. Newborns and people in comas don't depend on another persons body, therefore the only people to consider are them.

If it isn't a human what is it? A dog? A fish? A carrot?
If a being has human parents, isn’t it human?

Both may not depend on people's body but they depend on people in general.

[FreeFall]

Then using your logic of dictating what one can do with thier own body you should be opposed to laws requiring people to wear seat belts in a motor vehicle, correct? And I certainly don't see much opposition to that.Posts merged. Please use the "edit" button to add more to a post.~Bath/Bethany

You tried to be clever, nice try.
The laws dictate what to do with/in your motor vehicle, it's just like using the headlights in the dark. What you do with your seatbelt is put it on. That's the seatbelt's law. It has nothing to do with the body and your personal freedom in an automobile. There is no 'you shall restrain your body whenever you are in a car because we so control it' mindset about it, it's just what you do with the car.


Going by your logic, when a pregnant woman accidentally falls down and loses her baby, we should see her as a an evil baby murderer. She didn't mean to "kill" her fetus, but it was involuntary manslaughter since she did. In my state that could be seen as aggravated assault as well, we rarely seem to have involuntary manslaughter without aggravated assault, since the fetus wasn't doing anything other than growing in her until she endangered it by being in a position to fall regardless of what it was she was doing even if it was just standing up.

[Gigablue]

If it isn't a human what is it? A dog? A fish? A carrot?
If a being has human parents, isn’t it human?

It has human cells, but isn't a human being.

Both may not depend on people's body but they depend on people in general.

That's irrelevant. The reason a woman has a right to end the pregnancy is that she has a right to her own body.

[havingfun]

.................

[Gigablue]

Gigablue, the sites you cited are clearly biased, so I am not even going to bother looking at your links. I'll admit that my source is not totally free of bias, but is closer to reality than yours. Try again.

How can you know that they are biased when you stated that you didn't look at them? Also, your site is no less biased. It is filled with various pro-life arguments. You simply assert that it is less biased.

[FreeFall]

It complete has to do with your body. The law is controlling what you do with your body while you are in the car. It is restricting you from moving your body around in your car freely. Seems like you have a double standard.
Again. No. You're so set on it being a law over your body that you're viewing it as a double standard and picking as hard as you possibly can. It's not a law of what to do with your body, it's a law of what to do with a seatbelt in a car. It's a law over the automobile, not yourself.


There was a situation like that around here a few months ago. A guy killed his GF and unborn child, and was charged with double homicide. It the unborn child was merely a clump of cells, then why 2 charges instead of one?
Irrelevant.
We are talking about women destroying the fetus aka abortion and intentional miscarriage. I am asking you about accidents an expecting woman has. Not who did what to a pregnant woman. That does not make it abortion or miscarriage in this case.

So I'll ask you again, if a woman falls and miscarries, how do we go about punishing the evil baby killer for this involuntary manslaughter? Also, the fetus forms at 8 or 9 weeks after conception. The weeks prior is the fertilized egg attaching while the womb gets itself ready, and become an embryo. So if she does something and the embryo/fertilized egg unintentionally detaches from her wall, should we bring also her to court for that too since she accidentally stopped what could've been human life?

[Darknova8]

I read about the bg who killed his gf and unborn child and yes he was charged with double homicide.

[Gigablue]

I read about the bg who killed his gf and unborn child and yes he was charged with double homicide.

This is because it should be the woman's choice. The mother has the right to her own body, and thus doesn't have to carry the fetus. It doesn't depend on anyone else, therefore the decision is the mothers. No one else can make that decision for her.

[Darknova8]

This is because it should be the woman's choice. The mother has the right to her own body, and thus doesn't have to carry the fetus. It doesn't depend on anyone else, therefore the decision is the mothers. No one else can make that decision for her.

What about the child’s body and her choice? The fetus doesn't even have the chance to stop you. Your killing a person.

[havingfun]

.................

[Gigablue]

What about the child’s body and her choice? She may doesn't even have the chance to stop you your killing a person.

I don't understand what you're saying. The second sentence makes no sense. As for the first, the fetus isn't a child.

[Abigballofdust]

Ok if you don't want to argue seatbelts, then I will just use another example- drugs. Why not allow women (or anybody) take cocaine, pot, etc? Making them illegal interferes with what a woman does with her body, and therefore she should be allowed to do those drugs if she feels like it.

You don't have to argue drugs. Pot is illegal due to some unexplained reasons and sometime in the future, it's gonna get legalized because the leaders will understand there's no sense fighting in a lost battle.
Cocaine, heroine, speed, acid, etc... create strong addictions that on a longer (not that long, tbh) time span will destroy the human with a strong impact on society as well. A heroine addict has a higher expectancy of turning to a criminal life, robbing or even killing to get the next round. Cocaine is just the road to heroine. This is why they are illegal, the harmful effects of those are forcing local legislations to ban them.

[Darknova8]

I don't understand what you're saying. The second sentence makes no sense. As for the first, the fetus isn't a child.

How is it not a human?
What is it if not a human?

[Gigablue]

How is it not a human?
What is it if not a human?

A fetus is not a human being. It is a group of human cells, but isn't conscious, nor can it think or feel.

[Darknova8]

A fetus is not a human being. It is a group of human cells, but isn't conscious, nor can it think or feel.

A “person” is just a valuable
human being who has rights. An unborn child is alive, human, and a member of
our species who is developing into a fully grown human being, who just like you and me deserve to be treated equally.
So abortion shouldn't be conducted to terminate the pregnancy.
Pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it is "impossible to know" when painful experiences may become possible, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.

[havingfun]

.................

[Gigablue]

A “person” is just a valuable
human being who has rights. An unborn child is alive, human, and a member of
our species who is developing into a fully grown human being, who just like you and me deserve to be treated equally.
So abortion shouldn't be conducted to terminate the pregnancy.
Pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it is "impossible to know" when painful experiences may become possible, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.

How do you define a person? The fetus is genetically human, but shouldn't be treated as a person.

An unborn "child" is alive and has human genetic material, but lacks the ability to think. It has no personality. How is it more important than the mother?

While we don't know exactly when the fetus is able to feel pain, it is possible to make reasonable estimates. It is very unlikely that it would feel pain before 20 weeks, and more likely that it can only feel pain at about 28 weeks. Most abortions are preformed well before this point.

[Darknova8]

How do you define a person? The fetus is genetically human, but shouldn't be treated as a person.

An unborn "child" is alive and has human genetic material, but lacks the ability to think. It has no personality. How is it more important than the mother?

While we don't know exactly when the fetus is able to feel pain, it is possible to make reasonable estimates. It is very unlikely that it would feel pain before 20 weeks, and more likely that it can only feel pain at about 28 weeks. Most abortions are preformed well before this point.

I'm not saying it's more important then the mother I'm saying it should be treated equally as the mother. It is unlikey but possible for it to feel pain that early, so shouldn't we play it safe and not kill the fetus at all.

[FreeFall]

Ok if you don't want to argue seatbelts, then I will just use another example- drugs. Why not allow women (or anybody) take cocaine, pot, etc? Making them illegal interferes with what a woman does with her body, and therefore she should be allowed to do those drugs if she feels like it.
Because it's not focused on the person in this case. If you're going to argue drugs you've got to see the consequences of a person on drugs and the bigger picture. If someone wants to destroy themselves with it, what business of mine is it? But when an addict is robbing people, hurting people, stealing and so on to feed their addiction or killing when high or buzzed, it's harmful to society. An addict is harmful to society, it is no longer about the person but their problem and how it's a danger to us all.

But how is a woman that wants abortion the same as an addict? Is she breaking down doors to have her abortion? Is she driving through the roads hallucinating to have an abortion? Did she take money out of your wallet when you weren't aware to have her abortion?

If it truly was an accident, the it should be no different that a vehicular death.
That's still unintentional murder. I don't know what your laws are like, but that's still manslaughter here. With some negligent driving for the vehicular bit.

[havingfun]

.................

[Gigablue]

I'm not saying it's more important then the mother I'm saying it should be treated equally as the mother. It is unlikey but possible for it to feel pain that early, so shouldn't we play it safe and not kill the fetus at all.

Most abortions are preformed in the first trimester or early in the second. At this point, the brain is not developed enough to feel pain. It's not unlikely, it's practically impossible.

How is it equal to the mother. She is a fully formed, sentient human being. The fetus is a group of cells, unable to think or feel.

[FreeFall]

Funny you mention that, because millions of our tax dollars do go to abortion funding, so technically yes. And since I see it as an unborn child, I do see it as affecting others.


I see somebody gave me a red rep on one of my earlier posts, like I care about that. (But at least what they called what I said was facts)
Why is it you pick out certain parts of my response and focus on that while ignoring my questions and other statements?
I sincerely doubt you and society care about every single child a mother doesn't want. The orphanages are full, the street children are scavenging for food, the kids in foster care are wondering why, the sweet angels with cancer hope they'll live to see being 12 years old and you're more concerned with the children that have yet to even come into the world let alone may not make it to full term. An unwanted child will most likely be abandoned, abused, neglected, or tossed into the foster care system. I'm not saying this is at all a justifiable cause for abortion, I myself think that it's not, but with so many broken and damaged children already why toss another into the pile.

[havingfun]

.................

[FreeFall]

I address all of the issues brought up, the problem is after so long I start repeating myself, and if you don't understand my points after 20 posts, then there is no point beating my head against the wall.
You did not.

Another "Funny you should say that" situation. Currently there are about 1.3 million couples looking to adopt children, but are unable to do so due to the excessinve red tape involved. That 1.3 million will more than cancel out all of the abortions for a given year.
Do I agree that there is a ton of red tape? Yes. Do I think some of that tape's unfair? Of course. But would I rather there be a ton of tape than it be a walk in-walk out adoption? With my whole heart. Yes it sucks some eligible parents are basically screwed out of adding an angel to their home but I'd rather there be a hard process than people just picking a kid and either using said child for government benefits or be the most unfit parent in the most dangerous community in a home that should be foreclosed. And yes, I very aware bad people still manage to adopt, but it's not easy if the facility actually cares about their orphans.

And what do kids with cancer have to do with this. You are implying that I could care less about them.
And you implied I couldn't give a crap about humanity because I support abortion. I don't think my volunteering to cheer up the sick kids I've talked about makes me this heartless heathen you see. I've actually got the softest spot for children and would very happily harm anyone that harms them.


As for your sig, if you don't want me arguing with idiots, I can stop replying to your posts. I sure don't want to be seen arguing with an idiot.
Well, what you do is your choice. My sig has no relation to the debate, I see no need for you to have brought it up to be honest.
Name calling me was not appreciated very much though as I thought we were, somewhat, remotely mature most of our discussion.

[Narutoben]

Well even if the female is gonna die (she wasnt raped or molested) wouldnt it be a real mothers instinct to die for her own child like most of our mothers would jump in front of a loaded gun for us? If u cant devote time with your baby then dont have sex simple as that or make sure ur protected or just putthem for adoption and hope they will turn out great YOLO

[Roses_Are_Yellow]

I believe that a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. If a woman decides she doesn't want to go through with a pregnancy, she should have the right to abort it. All though, I think that she should only have a right to do so up until the point where the fetus develops a heartbeat; anytime after I believe should be illegal. I personally wouldn't abort a pregnancy, just because I'm the type of person who thinks (dwells) of the 'what ifs'; and also because of things that have happened in my life.

[Roses_Are_Yellow]

Well even if the female is gonna die (she wasnt raped or molested) wouldnt it be a real mothers instinct to die for her own child like most of our mothers would jump in front of a loaded gun for us? If u cant devote time with your baby then dont have sex simple as that or make sure ur protected or just putthem for adoption and hope they will turn out great YOLO


You Obviously Love Oreos

[Gigablue]

Well even if the female is gonna die (she wasnt raped or molested) wouldnt it be a real mothers instinct to die for her own child like most of our mothers would jump in front of a loaded gun for us?

Usually, if a pregnancy puts the mother's life in danger, the fetus's chance of survival is low.

I believe that a woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. If a woman decides she doesn't want to go through with a pregnancy, she should have the right to abort it. All though, I think that she should only have a right to do so up until the point where the fetus develops a heartbeat; anytime after I believe should be illegal.

What's special about a heartbeat? Many living things have a heartbeat. That doesn't make it sentient. Also, the heart forms fairly early in the pregnancy, after only about 6 weeks. This leaves a very small window open for women to get an abortion. The brain is the only organ that is necessary for it to be sentient. Without brain development, the fetus is insentient.

[Darknova8]

Most abortions are preformed in the first trimester or early in the second. At this point, the brain is not developed enough to feel pain. It's not unlikely, it's practically impossible.

How is it equal to the mother. She is a fully formed, sentient human being. The fetus is a group of cells, unable to think or feel.

I believe it's equal.
If the mother can't be responsible enough to not kill a ''group of cells'' as you put it. That would be a child a one point. Then she shouldn't have sex.

[Gigablue]

I believe it's equal.
If the mother can't be responsible enough to not kill a ''group of cells'' as you put it. That would be a child a one point. Then she shouldn't have sex.

You make is sound like because she has sex, she forfeits some of her rights. Even though she may have made a bad decision and gotten pregnant, she is still a human being with the same rights as anyone else. And what about cases when birth control fails? The woman was responsible, but just unlucky. Should she be punished for that?

[Darknova8]

You make is sound like because she has sex, she forfeits some of her rights. Even though she may have made a bad decision and gotten pregnant, she is still a human being with the same rights as anyone else. And what about cases when birth control fails? The woman was responsible, but just unlucky. Should she be punished for that?

So taking responsibly of her fetus/child is punishment?
I must it's unfortunate she was impregnated even on birth control but I still don't think she should have the right to kill the fetus.
Not her body, not her choice.

[Jess]

it's still her choice. why should anyone, let alone MEN, make the decision on whether or not she should have the baby? abortion's a personal choice and the government should have no say in it..

in any case, there should be more education to prevent abortions in the first place. but women should always have the right and choice to an abortion when the situation arises

[Gigablue]

So taking responsibly of her fetus/child is punishment?

Taking care of a child can ruin someone life if they aren't prepared. A woman might not be financially able to care for it. She might also have to drop out of school. There is also a huge stigma for her to deal with.


Not her body, not her choice.

It is her body. She shouldn't have to carry a fetus for nine months if she doesn't want to.

[Narutoben]

Heartbeats

[FreeFall]

So taking responsibly of her fetus/child is punishment?
I must it's unfortunate she was impregnated even on birth control but I still don't think she should have the right to kill the fetus.
Not her body, not her choice.
So your view is: "Oh your tubes are tied, you're on birth control and the condom broke? At least you were being responsible. But you still chose to spread your legs so you must have the baby LOL!"
But you see it is inside of her body. Am I not allowed to remove parasite from my body because it's not mine?

A Zygote/Blastocyst/Blastula/Gastrula is also not a body or even human.
They truly are just cells mixing DNA.

[Roses_Are_Yellow]

What's special about a heartbeat? Many living things have a heartbeat. That doesn't make it sentient. Also, the heart forms fairly early in the pregnancy, after only about 6 weeks. This leaves a very small window open for women to get an abortion. The brain is the only organ that is necessary for it to be sentient. Without brain development, the fetus is insentient.

The reason is personal, and I don't really feel like getting into it right now. Fine, women can terminate the fetus whenever they want, but I honestly would probably get too attached by that point.

[Gigablue]

Heartbeats

What's special about a heartbeat?

[SamW]

Anyone should be able to have an abortion if they wish. As long as the woman is for it it should be legal

[CyanideGoodnight]

I personally think there's too much pressure on the WOMAN to be COMPLETELY responsible for birth control. If something happens and she gets pregnant, it seems like it's always HER fault for GETTING pregnant. Yes I know this isn't ALWAYS the case, however it's the case that I have seen the most.

I think there should be more education on sex, birth control, abortion, and child development available for both genders, that way unplanned pregnancy can happen less often. Yes mistakes do happen, but at least both parties were fully informed of all their options, and when mistakes (unplanned pregnancies) happen, THATS where abortion comes in.

Anyone who choses to get an abortion should be fully knowledged on the process they're going to undergo. And the woman should have the right to UNDERGO THE PROCEDURE no matter WHAT the circumstances.

I think it's the girls choice, and no one should take that choice away from her.

Another thing is legalized abortion allows women to undergo SAFE abortions, whereas in other places where it isn't legalized you have black market abortions, in which the woman can get hurt and possibly die due to complications from the unsafe abortion.

[Cognizant]

If you want abortion, get one. Even if the impregnation was intentional, I say it's still okay to get one. It's her choice, not anyone elses. Simple as that.

[Jess]

I personally think there's too much pressure on the WOMAN to be COMPLETELY responsible for birth control. If something happens and she gets pregnant, it seems like it's always HER fault for GETTING pregnant. Yes I know this isn't ALWAYS the case, however it's the case that I have seen the most.

I think there should be more education on sex, birth control, abortion, and child development available for both genders, that way unplanned pregnancy can happen less often. Yes mistakes do happen, but at least both parties were fully informed of all their options, and when mistakes (unplanned pregnancies) happen, THATS where abortion comes in.

Anyone who choses to get an abortion should be fully knowledged on the process they're going to undergo. And the woman should have the right to UNDERGO THE PROCEDURE no matter WHAT the circumstances.

I think it's the girls choice, and no one should take that choice away from her.

Another thing is legalized abortion allows women to undergo SAFE abortions, whereas in other places where it isn't legalized you have black market abortions, in which the woman can get hurt and possibly die due to complications from the unsafe abortion.

exactly.

I don't get why other people think they can tell women, "you can't have an abortion because I think it's wrong"....seriously

[randomnessqueen]

i would never have one done, but i think everyone has the choice.

[Jaycub]

I see nothing rong with it it shud be a option if your not ready for a baby next time use a condom ;)

[Jess]

I see nothing rong with it it shud be a option if your not ready for a baby next time use a condom ;)

those aren't 100% effective.

[Christine.]

Anyone who wants anabortion should be able to have one

[Darkhorse]

I think it should be legal I wouldn't want the mother of my baby to get one but depending on the circumstances it might be the best choice

[triggerperson]

I believe that if someone wants to have an abortion, they should be able to. And besides, just because you make it illegal doesn't mean that nobody will do it. They'll just turn to other (dangerous/illegal) methods.

[some_person]

I believe if you're old enough to stick it in, you're old enough to raise the baby if the semen makes it to the egg.

I completely disagree with you on this. What if the condom ripped? Or what if the girl tricked you into believing that she's on the pill? Would you want to be a father with only 13 years of age? Do you think that just because you're physically and mentally ready to have sex, you are also ready to have a child? I don't think so. If a girl gives birth at 14, she has just ruined her chances of having a good education and becoming successful in life, because she has a baby to take care of.

I'm sorry if I broke any rules by posting this, and I don't mean to attack you personally.

[LouBerry]

I believe abortion is wrong, for anyone, regardless of situation. But my view comes from being religious, there is a verse in the bible that says "Even before you were formed in your mothers womb, I set you apart". And I just feel like even if it's only a group of cells, it's a baby. I have this weird view on taking life, I don't even believe in war, and I know I could never kill the child I was carrying, even if I was raped or something. I don't want to step on toes or tell people that they're wrong, it's just how I feel about it.

[FreeFall]

Frankly, if you believe abortion's wrong then don't get one. I'm sort of confused as to why this is even an issue for people today.

[gothicsanctum]

What i think is, if you want an abortion, Get it and if you dont want one. Dont get it!