Fuck the Troops

[Korashk]

Hooray attention catching titles. On to the actual content of my topic which has basically nothing to do with soldiers and everything to do with those that idolize them.

Why do a lot of Americans put the men and women of the military in a sort of superior class of people? This is a concept that I really don't understand. Some might say that they're protecting your freedom, but that hasn't been true for a while. Not since World War 2 have American troops fought for the freedom of American citizens, and even then it was iffy. Currently the military takes up its time fighting unjust wars and killing people who are, a lot of the time, innocent of any wrongdoing.

This is where certain factions within the troop idolizer movement pick up and say that even if the wars are unjust, we should still support the troops for some reason. However, this doesn't really make all that sense. These unjust wars have been going on since the fifties and there's no indication that they're going to stop.

This tells me some things about the current crop of soldiers, the vast majority of which joined after the whole "defending freedom" thing ended. Not all of these apply to every soldier:

- Current members of the military just like being soldiers along with all that the job entails.
- Current members of the military are "indoctrinated" into thinking that the wars that the United States have been engaging in are somehow justified from a moral perspective.
- Current members of the military joined because of the benefits that come with joining such as cheap college, a paycheck, etc.

There might be other reasons, but I think I covered the major bases. None of these things should make a soldier intrinsically garner your respect and admiration. Is their job hard and dangerous? Yes. However, it's no different that other people who work in dangerous professions. Add to this that soldiers are essentially the muscle of the mostly unjust American government.

I may not respect soldiers "just because", and one might even say that I harbor an inherent distaste for the profession itself; but I don't get how a person can have the opposite opinion and intrinsically hold soldiers above other citizens.

[Azunite]

Fuck the leaders, not the troops.

[whatevva]

Thanx! it to courage to post that. I kinda agree. When we call everyone a hero, the word loses it's effect for the real ones. My dad says it's because of how the soldiers were treated when they got back from Veit nam.

[Professional Russian]

Ok how hard am i gonna have to fight for this.

Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country. And we dont kill innocent people. If the troops get shot they're cleared to engage and kill every last one of them.

I dont know why all you people think we kill innocent people. if your at me im gona shoot back with overwhelming fire power and thats what the military does. You do know they die to keep you safe right?

[Telkanis]

Wow really brave post by the op though I have to agree. On principal I support the individual troops. They just follow orders. It's the commanders who decide where they go and who they kill. Any war or action by the military is going to result in "collateral " deaths just depends on what you consider to be an exceptable amount. Military is unfortunately a necessary tool, maybe hopefully in the future we can get rid of it and save a ton of money. I do think our military is way bigger than it needs to be. We have more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined.

[Professional Russian]

. I do think our military is way bigger than it needs to be. We have more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined.

And thats a good thing

[Jacketh]

I agree completely. However, I wouldn't say ''fuck the troops'' as all the troops would defend the country if required at any given moment. Its more the leaders who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent lives. George Bush.

I don't think having strong forces is a bad thing, I would prefer it if countries adopted Switzerland's approach though!

[SLABBS]

Coming from a familey in which all the men served in the military (and with me considering enlisting). id have to say that i do believe soldiers should be respected and held to a sense of importance. someone who is in the military for 4 years has literally donated 4 years of there life to the cause. joining the service means leaving behind your entire life. they leave their home, their friends, their family and sometimes even a husband or wife or kid. its not just a profession the hold for a while.

[Azunite]

Ok how hard am i gonna have to fight for this.

Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country. And we dont kill innocent people. If the troops get shot they're cleared to engage and kill every last one of them.

I dont know why all you people think we kill innocent people. if your at me im gona shoot back with overwhelming fire power and thats what the military does. You do know they die to keep you safe right?


Oh yes. If America hadn't launched an invasion to the Middle East, combined forces of mountainmen militia would have invaded the US and steal American children right?

[StoppingTime]

Coming from a familey in which all the men served in the military (and with me considering enlisting). id have to say that i do believe soldiers should be respected and held to a sense of importance. someone who is in the military for 4 years has literally donated 4 years of there life to the cause. joining the service means leaving behind your entire life. they leave their home, their friends, their family and sometimes even a husband or wife or kid. its not just a profession the hold for a while.

Do me a favor. Go ask a soldier if they want to be treated as if they are better and more important than everyone else. I'll bet they don't.
And yes, they "donate their life to the cause." That's their own choice; we don't have a draft anymore. And think about it, are they really keeping you safe now? Or are they just playing policeman with the world?


Oh yes. If America hadn't launched an invasion to the Middle East, combined forces of mountainmen militia would have invaded the US and steal American children right?

Clearly. And I'm sure these dangerous sheet heads, as you would say PR, would go out and murder entire villages and towns, wait...

[Professional Russian]

Oh yes. If America hadn't launched an invasion to the Middle East, combined forces of mountainmen militia would have invaded the US and steal American children right?

You do know terrorists are from where we're fighting right? They would come attack us.

[StoppingTime]

You do know terrorists are from where we're fighting right? They would come attack us.

So, since we don't know exactly where they are in "those countries" we should just stay there indefinitely? Since, you know, that's where the terrorists are from, and they would come and attack us.

[Abigballofdust]

You do know terrorists are from where we're fighting right? They would come attack us.

And you do know terrorist wouldn't be from where you're fighting if you didn't go there in the first place?

[Stryker125]

Ok how hard am i gonna have to fight for this.

Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country. And we dont kill innocent people. If the troops get shot they're cleared to engage and kill every last one of them.

I dont know why all you people think we kill innocent people. if your at me im gona shoot back with overwhelming fire power and thats what the military does. You do know they die to keep you safe right?

Pretty sure this is exactly what op's post is about.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

OP: I agree, since WWII we have fought in wars that were either non of our business (i.e. Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq) or fought to "protect the world from terrorism" in Afghanistan. These wars should have never happened and I praise President Obama for taking us out of those costly and deadly wars. I respect the soldiers because of their bravery and their willingness to go out and risk their lives, but I don't respect them for fighting in wars that I don't agree with, which has been every war since WWII. And i certainly don't respect them protecting our government. All they are are a bunch of greedy and awful people that don't care about us.

[Azunite]

You do know terrorists are from where we're fighting right? They would come attack us.

Yes. Mountain men armed with automatic rifles will launch an amphibious assault on the eastern coast and they'll be in Texas within a few days man I get what you mean.

Geez...

[InfinantSilence]

[QUOTE=Abigballofdust;1780568]And you do know terrorist wouldn't be from where you're fighting if you didn't go there in the first place?[/QU ok. I have to have Profesional Russians back on this one. In case you forgot, od september 11th 2001 america got attacked by a bunch of half- assed pansie bitches. Those pansie bitches MURDERED OVER 2 THOUSAND innocent american civilians. So while were blaming Bush for killing their civialians we need to think. Why? Hmm? Why did bush send our troops over there to kill all those "Innocent people"? OH YEAH! Because they killed our innocent people FIRST. So case in point we did not start the war. Iraq did. They came over here,TO AMERICA! And did what they did. We simply returned the favor.

[StoppingTime]

ok. I have to have Profesional Russians back on this one.

Good luck with that one, buddy.


In case you forgot, od september 11th 2001 america got attacked by a bunch of half- assed pansie bitches. Those pansie bitches MURDERED OVER 2 THOUSAND innocent american civilians.

And to date, there have been approximately100,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) civilians killed in Iraq since 2003. Uh.......... Those numbers, are, kind of, well, you know, a bit, DIFFERENT!
Yes, those "half-ass pansies" are the ones who completely populate the Middle East.


So while were blaming Bush for killing their civialians we need to think. Why? Hmm? Why did bush send our troops over there to kill all those "Innocent people"? OH YEAH! Because they killed our innocent people FIRST.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/278/2/a/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH.jpg

Summary of what you just said: They killed our innocent people, so let's go kill theirs, even though they are INNOCENT! 3rd grade logic doesn't work in the real world.

[Abigballofdust]

I have to have Profesional Russians back on this one. In case you forgot, od september 11th 2001 america got attacked by a bunch of half- assed pansie bitches. Those pansie bitches MURDERED OVER 2 THOUSAND innocent american civilians. So while were blaming Bush for killing their civialians we need to think. Why? Hmm? Why did bush send our troops over there to kill all those "Innocent people"? OH YEAH! Because they killed our innocent people FIRST. So case in point we did not start the war. Iraq did. They came over here,TO AMERICA! And did what they did. We simply returned the favor.

Speaking of who did what first:
In various pronouncements before and after the attacks, al-Qaeda explicitly cited three motives for its activities against Western countries: the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, U.S. support of Israel, and sanctions against Iraq.

I'm not condoning terorristic acts, but get your facts straight, you weren't attacked out of the blue.
Besides, you went there, killed thousands of people, created an even bigger shitfuck in an already fucked up place and still want to be right?

[Wayne92]

I usually hate getting into conversations like these but I got to but in my 2 cents.

Servicemen have absolutely no control over where or when they are stationed or deployed. Most of my family served so I know from experience. Whether a war is justified or has some level of bs to it, doesn't change the fact that they have to do as they are told.
Now, all wars have had some level of civilian casualties. It's just the media has a tendency to focus on the death toll over they analysis of the whole situation. Scary and horrible things gets people's attention, that's the news for you. It's just that civilian casualties are a lot lower now a days and when dealing with situations where the enemy blends with the local population, mistakes happen.
And finally, Servicemen are heroes like your local cops, EMTs and firemen. They go out everyday to keep people safe at the expense of their own safety but also their families.

Now that has been said, on a slightly off topic note; The government and the higher ups in the military do have a tendency to waste money on unnecessary projects. The F-22 which isn't really being used and probably couldn't win a fight against the new Russian fighters, but who knows. Just a nerd moment.

[Korashk]

And you do know terrorist wouldn't be from where you're fighting if you didn't go there in the first place?
This. Before I get to responding to other people I'm going to copy/paste something I wrote for another debate group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/2539771528/permalink/10150599437771529/):

~~~~~

They did not attack the US because "they hate our freedom" or "because the Koran calls for the destruction of the West". [Or any other "patriotic" AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!!! reason.]

Here are some quotes:
The Arabian Peninsula has never...been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations.

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
The source of these quotes is also where the media gets this out of context quote that is commonly held against the Taliban:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it...
And obviously the 9/11 attack is negative and condemnable, but more understandable if you understand the events that led up to it and read the section in its entirety, which continues:

...in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

These were all before 9/11 and here is the source (http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm).

Here's a quotes from a video sent after 9/11:
we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

It's more effective to read the entire transcript of this video (http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2004/11/200849163336457223.html).

Yes 9/11 was a tragedy, but to say that America is blameless is falsehood.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/417690_310315969017344_769098507_n.jpg

~~~~~

Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.
The threat of which is our own fault for fucking with them for 30+ years.

The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country.
Like...? Let's see some proof. However, even if they exist it doesn't really help your side. America created the terrorists in the first place.

And we dont kill innocent people. If the troops get shot they're cleared to engage and kill every last one of them.
Just because the higher-ups says you can kill them doesn't mean they're not innocent. Lowball estimates put the number of deaths in the Iraq conflict at well over 100,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War), whereas the estimated number of al-Qaeda members (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/07/sb-al-qaeda-new-members-badly-needed-1151963690) is 1,000.
Hell, even the government's estimate for Iraqi civilians killed exposed by Bradley Manning is over 65,000.

I dont know why all you people think we kill innocent people. if your at me im gona shoot back with overwhelming fire power and thats what the military does.
5rXPrfnU3G0
Yes, those unarmed men, women, and children who weren't shooting at that plane sure deverved what was coming to them. Those soldiers sure aren't laughing at the demise of the people they just murdered.

I've been told by a person who served in Iraq that their commanding officer had them under orders to kill everyone they saw who was carrying a shovel because it's possible that person was in insurgent who was burying IEDs.

You are deluded if you think the military only acts in self-defense.

You do know they die to keep you safe right?
No, they don't. In fact, they're the reason we're in danger in the first place. We fucked with the Middle East, they didn't like it and fought back.

~~~~~

Wow really brave post by the op though I have to agree. On principal I support the individual troops. They just follow orders. It's the commanders who decide where they go and who they kill.
The point I made in the OP is that the soldiers knew this when they signed up, they knew, or had the ability to find out all about the wars before they joined. They're not blameless just because they don't choose where they go, the only people that applies to are those who got drafted.

~~~~~

And thats a good thing
No its not. America's military spending is almost five times greater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures) than the next largest budget, even though there is absolutely no real military threat to our country from anyone anywhere in the entire world. Especially since this is the nuclear age where military might isn't accurately measured in troops and vehicles.

The money spent on the military could be much better spent on other things because even if we reduced the size of our military by 75%, we'd still have the biggest military in the world.

~~~~~

ok. I have to have Profesional Russians back on this one. In case you forgot, od september 11th 2001 america got attacked by a bunch of half- assed pansie bitches. Those pansie bitches MURDERED OVER 2 THOUSAND innocent american civilians. So while were blaming Bush for killing their civialians we need to think. Why? Hmm? Why did bush send our troops over there to kill all those "Innocent people"? OH YEAH! Because they killed our innocent people FIRST. So case in point we did not start the war. Iraq did. They came over here,TO AMERICA! And did what they did. We simply returned the favor.

Servicemen have absolutely no control over where or when they are stationed or deployed. Most of my family served so I know from experience. Whether a war is justified or has some level of bs to it, doesn't change the fact that they have to do as they are told.
Now, all wars have had some level of civilian casualties. It's just the media has a tendency to focus on the death toll over they analysis of the whole situation. Scary and horrible things gets people's attention, that's the news for you. It's just that civilian casualties are a lot lower now a days and when dealing with situations where the enemy blends with the local population, mistakes happen.
And finally, Servicemen are heroes like your local cops, EMTs and firemen. They go out everyday to keep people safe at the expense of their own safety but also their families.
I think I addressed both of your posts with my earlier responses, if you'd respond to them. This also applies to other people who posted in the thread.

[TheMatrix]

The more propaganda you spread, the more people will believe that the troops have any use. It will be like that until we can educate enough people to turn the tables.
"A lie told often becomes true."

Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country.
And the US says to you:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/005/4/0/trust_us__by_ediskrad_studios-d30s160.jpg

[Professional Russian]

And you do know terrorist wouldn't be from where you're fighting if you didn't go there in the first place?[/QU ok. I have to have Profesional Russians back on this one. In case you forgot, od september 11th 2001 america got attacked by a bunch of half- assed pansie bitches. Those pansie bitches MURDERED OVER 2 THOUSAND innocent american civilians. So while were blaming Bush for killing their civialians we need to think. Why? Hmm? Why did bush send our troops over there to kill all those "Innocent people"? OH YEAH! Because they killed our innocent people FIRST. So case in point we did not start the war. Iraq did. They came over here,TO AMERICA! And did what they did. We simply returned the favor.

Well i guess someone knows what im talking about

I usually hate getting into conversations like these but I got to but in my 2 cents.

Servicemen have absolutely no control over where or when they are stationed or deployed. Most of my family served so I know from experience. Whether a war is justified or has some level of bs to it, doesn't change the fact that they have to do as they are told.
Now, all wars have had some level of civilian casualties. It's just the media has a tendency to focus on the death toll over they analysis of the whole situation. Scary and horrible things gets people's attention, that's the news for you. It's just that civilian casualties are a lot lower now a days and when dealing with situations where the enemy blends with the local population, mistakes happen.
And finally, Servicemen are heroes like your local cops, EMTs and firemen. They go out everyday to keep people safe at the expense of their own safety but also their families.

Now that has been said, on a slightly off topic note; The government and the higher ups in the military do have a tendency to waste money on unnecessary projects. The F-22 which isn't really being used and probably couldn't win a fight against the new Russian fighters, but who knows. Just a nerd moment.

Oh look 2 people know what im talking aobut

The more propaganda you spread, the more people will believe that the troops have any use. It will be like that until we can educate enough people to turn the tables.
"A lie told often becomes true."


And the US says to you:
image (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/005/4/0/trust_us__by_ediskrad_studios-d30s160.jpg)

That picture is so from the wall



I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country

[StoppingTime]

Surprising. You didn't actually debate our responses.
Rather, you made a post agreeing with people who agree with you.

I don't hate the military. I don't think they should be doing what they are doing at all. They don't deserve any special rights or privileges that you think they do.

[Professional Russian]

Surprising. You didn't actually debate our responses.
Rather, you made a post agreeing with people who agree with you.

I don't hate the military. I don't think they should be doing what they are doing at all. They don't deserve any special rights or privileges that you think they do.

Well i dont believe they should be fighting a force we'll never kill unless they come attack us first. The reason i believe the military should have more rights is because they signed their life away and i have good quote "Dont regret Growing older its privilege Denied to many".

[Sugaree]

Fuck the leaders, not the troops.

Which is what I was going to say, and a few others have said it too. Don't blame the messenger, blame the person who sent him.


Today they're not fighting for freedom they're against terrorist attacks.The U.S. Has found plots for attacks all over the country. And we dont kill innocent people. If the troops get shot they're cleared to engage and kill every last one of them.

They're fighting the god damned Boogey Man! Terrorist regimes in the Middle East can be blamed on the United States for constantly sticking our nose in their business. The only two plots for attacks by a terrorist cell from THIS country were in New York City (Time Square Bombing and another bomb in New York City). Both were foiled. Where are YOUR sources, anyway? You pull this stuff out of your backside and expect us to believe it.

We don't kill innocent people? That's a crock of bullshit. What about Saeed Chmagh and Namir Noor-Eldeen? They were two Reuters agents stationed in Iraq when they were fired upon by a C-140 piloted by the U.S. Military. Saeed was holding a camera, with Namir walking besides him. What did the troops do? They fired the support guns at them under the excuse "They had weapons". You seriously want to defend these men who thought that a CAMERA was an AK-47?

I do think our military is way bigger than it needs to be. We have more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined.

And thats a good thing

Leave it to PR to think spending five times as needed on national defense when that money could be spent helping the people inside our country is a good thing. The size of our military is completely unnecessary, and we need to scale back or else face ourselves as a tyrannical presence.

I agree completely. However, I wouldn't say ''fuck the troops'' as all the troops would defend the country if required at any given moment. Its more the leaders who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent lives. George Bush.

It's not just George Bush who did this. Lyndon Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, hell, Abraham Lincoln. They were all guilty of sending innocent men to their deaths.

You do know terrorists are from where we're fighting right? They would come attack us.

Oh, don't forget

1. The Branch Davidian/Waco siege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege)
2. The Unabomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski)
3. The Oklahoma City Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing)
4. The Holocaust Memorial Shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Holocaust_Memorial_Museum_shooting)

And please, don't forget also all the domestic terrorist groups here in YOUR beloved country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States#Terrorist_organizations) and all the domestic terrorist acts committed by all your favorite blue-blooded patriotic fellow American citizens! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_terrorism_in_the_United_States#Notable_attacks_associated_with_domestic _terrorism)



And the US says to you:
image (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/005/4/0/trust_us__by_ediskrad_studios-d30s160.jpg)

Damn, that sums up this thread well.

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country

I don't hate the military. I don't disrespect anyone who goes into it. My grandfather on my mother's side served in Vietnam where he had to drag his dead platoon members out of ditches filled with poised darts and snakes. My grandfather on my father's side served in WWII as a tail gunner on a B-29 (otherwise known as the Superfortress) called the Strawberry Bitch (which is on display at the Air Force Museum about 15 minutes from me). I have no hatred or disrespect towards members of the military. Some of them are good friends of mine and some of the most well mannered men and women I've met. I have a problem with the fuckwads who go in to kill and believe they're doing it for "freedom" and "liberty". These are the people you are defending, how can you do that? You defend people who go into the Army, Marines, and Navy just to kill and shoot shit?

[StoppingTime]

Well i dont believe they should be fighting a force we'll never kill unless they come attack us first. The reason i believe the military should have more rights is because they signed their life away and i have good quote "Dont regret Growing older its privilege Denied to many".

Can you explain the first part of your post in proper English please? I have no idea what it means.
Sure, they are "signing their life away." You could say that about any job.
And what does the quote have to do with anything?

[Professional Russian]

Can you explain the first part of your post in proper English please? I have no idea what it means.
Sure, they are "signing their life away." You could say that about any job.
And what does the quote have to do with anything?

We dont really actually see the terrorists until they actually do somthing the guy that we're killing are members of alquida which is a terrorist organization they wont actually bomb the US only a few do that and they are the ones we need to kill

[StoppingTime]

We dont really actually see the terrorists until they actually do somthing the guy that we're killing are members of alquida which is a terrorist organization they wont actually bomb the US only a few do that and they are the ones we need to kill

But, as you can see, they aren't attacking us now. That isn't because we are killing them, because they will just be replaced.

[Korashk]

the guy that we're killing are members of alquida
You didn't even read my post even though a majority of it was addressed to you. al-Qaeda is only like 1,000 people, yet over 100,000 have been killed in military conflicts. Logically, we can't only be killing al-Qaeda.

[Professional Russian]

But, as you can see, they aren't attacking us now. That isn't because we are killing them, because they will just be replaced.

I know they will keep being replaced thats why we have to kill them untill they stop being replaced

You didn't even read my post even though a majority of it was addressed to you. al-Qaeda is only like 1,000 people, yet over 100,000 have been killed in military conflicts. Logically, we can't only be killing al-Qaeda.

Well we were up against saddams army when we first entered so that adds some then theres the people defending their country so adds some then theres the taliban so adds some more and theres the civilians that we killed thinking they were were any of the above

[StoppingTime]

I know they will keep being replaced thats why we have to kill them untill they stop being replaced

In my expert opinion, after reading over this post a total of one, (yes, a whopping one time) I see a contradiction!!
This won't happen. They will keep being replaced. To put it in terms that are easier to understand:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/22321931.jpg



Well we were up against saddams army when we first entered so that adds some then theres the people defending their country so adds some then theres the taliban so adds some more and theres the civilians that we killed thinking they were were any of the above

Right. Except the link I gave you before was purely civilian numbers. Which was still 100,000.

[Jupiter]

I don't hate the military. I don't think they should be doing what they are doing at all. They don't deserve any special rights or privileges that you think they do.

That pretty much says everything that I would have said.

I think that Robert... (Prof Russian) you should probably actually read and take things into consideration.

[TheMatrix]

That picture is so from the wall
I respect your ability to identify a common image in just one try. Hats off to you!

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country
Maybe when they don't look like this anymore:
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/198/502747255_697a2505ae_z.jpg?zz=1
...following a corporation(the US government) like this:
http://samwise66.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/pinkfloydthewall.jpg
...will I have any respect for them. Until then, they won't have my support.

[Abigballofdust]

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country

There is a big difference between hating and disrespect. Hate is a reaction to fear, and in this case, it's fear of the consequences of your open provocation towards the middle east. You are openly instigating war and creating a scenario of fear for the people of the land you should be protecting. You brought this upon yourselves by interfering with peoples and lands you shouldn't have. The divide et impera philosophy is good to some extent, but you can't be an ass for decades without karma taking its toll.

[Azunite]

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country


Wrong again little chap. We don't hate the military. Military is too general.

[Professional Russian]

Wrong again little chap. We don't hate the military. Military is too general.

Why do you hate the U.S. Military

[Sugaree]

Why do you hate the U.S. Military

Again, far too general.

[Professional Russian]

Again, far too general.

What you want me to say army navy marines or airforce? Together they are the military. Or are we gona say obama its all obamas fault(Which sadly it isnt. he wouldnt get elected again if it was) or are we gona blame bush

[Korashk]

If its any consolation, I do hate the US Military specifically and those that allow it to continue less specifically. This includes the troops, because as I've outlined none of them are forced to join and our military hasn't been in a justifiable conflict in over sixty years.

Cut the crap about "they just take orders" and "blame the message, not the messenger". There's no orders they could possibly get that would send them to do something positive.

[Peace God]

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country
youve been here for over year man... do you read? how many more reasons (like the ones you delete in your diary) must be explained directly to you for you to actually read one of them?
If its any consolation, I do hate the US Military specifically and those that allow it to continue less specifically. This includes the troops, because as I've outlined none of them are forced to join and our military hasn't been in a justifiable conflict in over sixty years.

Cut the crap about "they just take orders" and "blame the message, not the messenger". There's no orders they could possibly get that would send them to do something positive.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzcpucIpmR1r6aoq4o1_250.gif

[Professional Russian]

If its any consolation, I do hate the US Military specifically and those that allow it to continue less specifically. This includes the troops, because as I've outlined none of them are forced to join and our military hasn't been in a justifiable conflict in over sixty years.

Cut the crap about "they just take orders" and "blame the message, not the messenger". There's no orders they could possibly get that would send them to do something positive.

Why do you hate them. They defended your freedom and fought for you to be in a free nation and you can sit there and say "yeah i hate the military they just make things worse." The lack of respect for the military these days are killing me.

[kenoloor]

Why do you hate them. They defended your freedom and fought for you to be in a free nation and you can sit there and say "yeah i hate the military they just make things worse." The lack of respect for the military these days are killing me.

They haven't "defended our freedom" since World War II, as has been stated earlier in this thread. What they are doing now is neither defending America's "freedom," nor is it helping anybody in any way, as has also been stated earlier in this thread. Can you read?

The lack of intelligence these days is killing me.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

I have one big questin. Why does VT Hate the Military So Much? I have never seen so much disrespect the people defending this country

I don't hate the military. I hate the reasons the military is fighting. Yeah lets kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the middle east because they may or may not have killed 3,000 +/- people on 9/11. If they were actually fighting to protect us from a threat, then I would support them more, but alas they are not. Going and killing people that aren't even part of al qaeda is not protecting us, only hurting them and making them more hateful and hostile towards us.

[Korashk]

Why do you hate them.
They're the strong arm of the United States Government that lately have done nothing but interfere in foreign affairs and oppress foreign people.

They defended your freedom and fought for you to be in a free nation
Which of these military conflicts after the 1950s category made me more free? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#1950.E2.80.931959) There are hundreds of them and I bet you can't find one single example where the military defended the country against a threat that the United States government didn't create.

and you can sit there and say "yeah i hate the military they just make things worse." The lack of respect for the military these days are killing me.
And you sit there ignorantly spewing praise while ignoring the litany of criticism given to the military in this thread. I've given you at least five reasons as to why I hate the military and you sit there and wonder why? I've explained how the military just makes things worse. How do people like you function? I legitimately don't understand how you can just ignore all of the information being thrown at you in favor of your own ignorant opinion.

[UTurn]

Ok, it is completely ignorant, not to mention fucked up, to say stuff like "Fuck the troops." War is BAD. There is no other way to describe it. We went to the Middle East in order to retaliate against the terroists who caused the attacks on 9/11/2001, NOT to kill their innocent citizens because they killed ours. Remember, the majority of people in the Middle East aren't suicide bombers, just regular people like us.

The military was sent to the Middle East to destroy a threat to the US. Otherwise, there would still be terrorist attacks constantly occuring all over the US. There are civilian casualties in war, there always have been and there always will be, it's how war works. We are lucky how far military technology has come, so that there are less casualties than there were in other wars in the past.

The government/military didn't go to the Middle East to "get back at them" for destroying the World Trade Center. They went to the Middle East to eliminate a very dangerous threat, who cause damage and kill for no reason other than their beliefs.

Soldiers put their lives at stake everyday to keep innocent people like us safe from dangerous threats. So don't say stuff like "Fuck the Troops." I don't see you in a hot desert, being shot at, and risking your life. Not saying that I am, or ever will, but I still support the troops.

People make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a comfy, air conditioned building. Yes, soldiers get good benefits, but they have a very low pay for a job that can cost them their life. You can say "they should have chosen another job" but if we didn't have such an incredible amount of people choosing to join, we would have a draft, and then everyone would serve.

So just think about stuff before you post. People have family members who have DIED in the military. Think how you make them feel.

[cody999]

i bet you wouldn't be saying that if your mom or dad had died during the 9-11 attack

[Thunduhbuhlt]

i bet you wouldn't be saying that if your mom or dad had died during the 9-11 attack

Yeah 3,000+ innocent people died on 9/11, but over 100,000 innocent people have died in Iraq alone because of what the military is doing. If anything we are the terrorists to them.

[predatorsfan21]

Yeah 3,000+ innocent people died on 9/11, but over 100,000 innocent people have died in Iraq alone because of what the military is doing. If anything we are the terrorists to them.

Well, to be fair, they started it.

[Korashk]

Well, to be fair, they started it.
No, actually...

WE FUCKING STARTED IT! (http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html)

We started it years and years ago by occupying their countries and overthrowing their governments. We fucked, and fucked, and fucked, and fucked. 9/11 was them fucking back.

Ok, it is completely ignorant, not to mention fucked up, to say stuff like "Fuck the troops." War is BAD. There is no other way to describe it. We went to the Middle East in order to retaliate against the terroists who caused the attacks on 9/11/2001, NOT to kill their innocent citizens because they killed ours. Remember, the majority of people in the Middle East aren't suicide bombers, just regular people like us.

The military was sent to the Middle East to destroy a threat to the US. Otherwise, there would still be terrorist attacks constantly occuring all over the US. There are civilian casualties in war, there always have been and there always will be, it's how war works. We are lucky how far military technology has come, so that there are less casualties than there were in other wars in the past.

The government/military didn't go to the Middle East to "get back at them" for destroying the World Trade Center. They went to the Middle East to eliminate a very dangerous threat, who cause damage and kill for no reason other than their beliefs.

Soldiers put their lives at stake everyday to keep innocent people like us safe from dangerous threats. So don't say stuff like "Fuck the Troops." I don't see you in a hot desert, being shot at, and risking your life. Not saying that I am, or ever will, but I still support the troops.

People make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a comfy, air conditioned building. Yes, soldiers get good benefits, but they have a very low pay for a job that can cost them their life. You can say "they should have chosen another job" but if we didn't have such an incredible amount of people choosing to join, we would have a draft, and then everyone would serve.

So just think about stuff before you post. People have family members who have DIED in the military. Think how you make them feel.
Goddamn people, read the thread. You know NOTHING about the conflict in the Middle East if you think we went there in response to the terrorist attack. Yeah, the majority of the people in the Middle East ARE just civilians, which is kind of why I don't think we should be there.

The US was in the Middle East well before the attack, in fact, that's pretty much why the attack happened. This is something I keep repeating, and its something people like you tend to ignore. I know the truth is tough, but you've got to face it eventually. Our military being in their countries is what's creating the terrorists, not what's stopping them.

Oh look, another thing I'm repeating. No dead soldiers involved in the current conflicts kept me safe by being there and dying. That's the real tragedy. It's pretty much the point of this entire thread. I'm not in a hot desert risking my life because I'd rather not further the oppression of foreign people and contribute to the machine that is the United States Government. That's what the troops are doing, not keeping you and I safe.

And lastly, I don't concern myself with the feelings of others when in pursuit of the truth.

i bet you wouldn't be saying that if your mom or dad had died during the 9-11 attack
I'd like to think that I would, because I try not to let my personal feelings and biases determine what I believe. I like to let the evidence do that for me.

[predatorsfan21]

No, actually...

WE FUCKING STARTED IT! (http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html)

We started it years and years ago by occupying their countries and overthrowing their governments. We fucked, and fucked, and fucked, and fucked. 9/11 was them fucking back.


Goddamn people, read the thread. You know NOTHING about the conflict in the Middle East if you think we went there in response to the terrorist attack. Yeah, the majority of the people in the Middle East ARE just civilians, which is kind of why I don't think we should be there.

The US was in the Middle East well before the attack, in fact, that's pretty much why the attack happened. This is something I keep repeating, and its something people like you tend to ignore. I know the truth is tough, but you've got to face it eventually. Our military being in their countries is what's creating the terrorists, not what's stopping them.

Oh look, another thing I'm repeating. No dead soldiers involved in the current conflicts kept me safe by being there and dying. That's the real tragedy. It's pretty much the point of this entire thread. I'm not in a hot desert risking my life because I'd rather not further the oppression of foreign people and contribute to the machine that is the United States Government. That's what the troops are doing, not keeping you and I safe.

And lastly, I don't concern myself with the feelings of others when in pursuit of the truth.


I'd like to think that I would, because I try not to let my personal feelings and biases determine what I believe. I like to let the evidence do that for me.

Well, that was a long post.

Nevertheless, we had to go in there. America is the best country and most powerful in the world. What image would 'Murica have had if we would have just let them come in here and bomb us? No matter what happened before hand, we had to go in there and make them pay for what they did.

If we wouldnt have done anything, we would have been looked at as a pussy of a country. We had to do what we had to do. And frankly, no matter what the above post says, I think what we did was right.

Just my opinion...

[Sugaree]

No matter what happened before hand, we had to go in there and make them pay for what they did.

Or just stay the fuck out of the Middle East in the first god damned place and keep our dicks to ourselves. We had no right to go in there and "make them pay" for jack shit. You act like every individual in the Middle East is some suicide bomber named Achmed.

If we wouldnt have done anything, we would have been looked at as a pussy of a country.

Paraphrased: war is a fashion accessory and we need it for our macho man image.

Just my opinion...

And it's really of no consequence at all.

[Korashk]

What image would 'Murica have had if we would have just let them come in here and bomb us?
You're missing the point entirely. If we would have just left them alone from 1950-2000 they wouldn't have flown those planes into those buildings. It's that simple. If we hadn't been bombing their countries and overthrowing their governments those ~3000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East would probably, for the most part, be alive today.

[Abigballofdust]

Well, that was a long post.

Nevertheless, we had to go in there. America is the best country and most powerful in the world. What image would 'Murica have had if we would have just let them come in here and bomb us? No matter what happened before hand, we had to go in there and make them pay for what they did.

If we wouldnt have done anything, we would have been looked at as a pussy of a country. We had to do what we had to do. And frankly, no matter what the above post says, I think what we did was right.

Just my opinion...
Please, PLEASE tell me you're trolling and did not just say all the world must accept USA's bullying and not fight back because you're the best. Don't get me started on USA 'bestness'. Get off your stars and stripes horse and take a look around before throwing an other post like that.

[Syntax]

I think it all comes down that the politicians should be blamed, not the soldiers. The soldiers take orders from the generals, generals take orders from the politicians.

Politicians always have their own hidden agendas. They pass these agendas down to the military in the form "orders" and petty excuses to the public of "defending the country from the various kinds of threats posed by global terrorism".

The part which "Our troops are giving their lives for your freedom!" is just pure folly. I respect and honor the soldiers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan but never, EVER the men who sent them to their deaths. Specifically, politicians.

[predatorsfan21]

1) Well, obviously my opinion wasnt the popular one, but once again, it's my opinion.

2) I also would like to say I respect y'alls opinion as much as I respect mine.

3) I'm not on any horse. That was just my view on the topic at hand.

4) I'd like to pose a question---> So, do you think after 9/11, we shouldn't have engaged in the war? I'm not asking about before hand, I wanna know what you think we as in America, should have done after 9/11.

[shyguy21]

I'd like to pose a question---> So, do you think after 9/11, we shouldn't have engaged in the war? I'm not asking about before hand, I wanna know what you think we as in America, should have done after 9/11.
I think you're missing the point. I get what you're saying that we couldn't just sit there, but we DID start it. Don't think that the terrorists just came out of the blue and attacked us, because we did provoke them. Whether or not the war is justifiable we did start it, and in some way bring the attacks upon ourselves.

[Jose]

It am never amazed at the a6unt of idiots that discuss things that are truely beyond reason first have taken any history at all to talk about ww 2 ar to whether it and if us should have been it jvst check out pearl harbor also in vietnam 85 percent of our troops were under the age of 21 and mere drafted into service from what i i hear u say u would of been one of those u would of gone to canada to escape the draft or a chicken shit as far as our present troops it is very close to my 20 year old brother mas killed in Iraq and to say he was not a hero is not just not offesive to me bu so many families who lost their fathe4 mothes sons and daughters they aqe heros and deserve to be respected their country asked them to serve and they gave their ultimate life as far benefits uur familywmost likly would not last a week on them people like u think its ok that so many of our vets come home homeless

[predatorsfan21]

I think you're missing the point. I get what you're saying that we couldn't just sit there, but we DID start it. Don't think that the terrorists just came out of the blue and attacked us, because we did provoke them. Whether or not the war is justifiable we did start it, and in some way bring the attacks upon ourselves.

Good post! :)

I completely understand what you are saying. Kudos.

[Syntax]

It am never amazed at the a6unt of idiots that discuss things that are truely beyond reason first have taken any history at all to talk about ww 2 ar to whether it and if us should have been it jvst check out pearl harbor also in vietnam 85 percent of our troops were under the age of 21 and mere drafted into service from what i i hear u say u would of been one of those u would of gone to canada to escape the draft or a chicken shit as far as our present troops it is very close to my 20 year old brother mas killed in Iraq and to say he was not a hero is not just not offesive to me bu so many families who lost their fathe4 mothes sons and daughters they aqe heros and deserve to be respected their country asked them to serve and they gave their ultimate life as far benefits uur familywmost likly would not last a week on them people like u think its ok that so many of our vets come home homeless

Yes, its true that we should honor and respect those who died in Iraq and Afghanistan but blame the politicians. They were the ones who started it all.

As a foreigner sees it, the last justifiable war the US entered was WW2. Sure the US nor the Allies won't be allowing Herr Hitler's boots stepping on their countries. Vietnam and Korea was entirely different. Its just a proxy war made by the US and Russia. Plus, the US wasn't even attacked but it still sent supplies and troops to support South Vietnam's and South Korea's armies.

Also, Pearl Harbor was attacked first by the Japanese because they wanted to cripple the US's capability to send its fleets towards the Pacific so that their invasions of Southeast Asia would be secure for the mean time. BTW, where do you even get the information of 85 percent of most US troops that were drafted to Vietnam were below 21? I'm really doubting that.

[Neverender]

As a foreigner sees it, the last justifiable war the US entered was WW2.

Nope. I'm a Canadian, and so far as I'm concerned, the last justifiable war they entered was the 1991 Gulf War. Did you forget about the United Nations? All wars under UN mandates are Justifiable. Vietnam is not as they have the Right to Self-Determination, and the South wanted to join the North. In Korea, S. Korea pleaded for help, so the UN agreed to help as the Soviet Union boycotted the UN and therefore forgave their vote. And don't dare you tell me that they would be better off if the entire korean peninsula were to be set up as a state based solely upon Worshipping "The Dear Leader", who is still the president of the country 18 years after his death.

[Syntax]

I see. Thanks for correcting me. And no, I won't be too much happy when Dear Leader has the entire Korean Peninsula worshiping him.

[Thunderstorm]

I think you're misunderstanding a soldier's morale. When they say that they are "fighting for their families" they don't mean to get money for their families. They mean for their families safety. Safety has no relationship with freedom. No, we aren't fighting for freedom, we are fighting for the welfare and safety of our nation. If we had let Iran get away with everything, we may be dead by now. All of us.

[Abigballofdust]

I think you're misunderstanding a soldier's morale. When they say that they are "fighting for their families" they don't mean to get money for their families. They mean for their families safety. Safety has no relationship with freedom. No, we aren't fighting for freedom, we are fighting for the welfare and safety of our nation. If we had let Iran get away with everything, we may be dead by now. All of us.

And if you let Iran be in the first place there would be 3500 more Americans walking this Earth, 2 buildings would be staying high above New York and 100'000 Arabs would be still alive as well. Not to say the damage you brought to those countries. You're fighting for what now? Saving your ass after you fucked up?

[Korashk]

I think you're misunderstanding a soldier's morale. When they say that they are "fighting for their families" they don't mean to get money for their families. They mean for their families safety. Safety has no relationship with freedom. No, we aren't fighting for freedom, we are fighting for the welfare and safety of our nation.
http://forum.nationstates.net/images/smilies/sm_facepalm.gif
No, I'm tired of responding to this.

If we had let Iran get away with everything, we may be dead by now. All of us.
Really; you think Iran is a threat to America? That notion is ridiculous. Iran hasn't attacked another nation in over 200 years. They don't even have nukes, and probably won't any time soon since their leaders are morally opposed to having them. Don't even start going on about stuff Ahmajinedad has said. Ahmajinedad doesn't rule Iran like so many people think.

Even if Iran had a nuke, so what? Pretty much every country around them has nukes and you're an idiot if you think their government would use one. Every government in the world knows that launching a nuclear offensive is tantamount to signing your own death certificate.

[StoppingTime]

I think you're misunderstanding a soldier's morale. When they say that they are "fighting for their families" they don't mean to get money for their families. They mean for their families safety. Safety has no relationship with freedom. No, we aren't fighting for freedom, we are fighting for the welfare and safety of our nation. If we had let Iran get away with everything, we may be dead by now. All of us.

Since Austin is tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over etc... I'll say it.


Since WWII, US Soldiers have not been actively protecting us from anything.