Why do People Hate Israel so Much?

[PerpetualImperfexion]

My understanding is that there are people out there who think Israel should cease to exist. If you are one of those people please explain yourself.

[Amnesiac]

I don't necessarily think Israel should "cease to exist," but I do think the amount of support the United States gives it is absolutely ridiculous – $15 billion a year for what? To bolster a country that has abused its existence and worsened relations in the region by continuing to expand its territory into areas that it's not supposed to be in? Yes, I'm well aware that the Arab governments aren't doing much to help the peace process either, but in reality Israel also holds a large chunk of the blame.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

I don't necessarily think Israel should "cease to exist," but I do think the amount of support the United States gives it is absolutely ridiculous – $15 billion a year for what? To bolster a country that has abused its existence and worsened relations in the region by continuing to expand its territory into areas that it's not supposed to be in? Yes, I'm well aware that the Arab governments aren't doing much to help the peace process either, but in reality Israel also holds a large chunk of the blame.

Alright I suppose it does seem kind of ridiculous to be giving so much money away. I could maybe understand if they were helping us out or if we weren't fifteen trillion dollars in debt. Are you saying that Israel shouldn't be where they are? How has it abused it's existence? Who's to say that there would even be a problem if Iraq hadn't waged war on them in the first place?

[Truth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I don't hate jews, just some of their values.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I don't hate jews, just some of their values.

Hmmm I think that's true of most religions. For instance a lot of people have misguided views on what Christians think about gays. The reality is that not ALL christians hold this belief. I assume that is true of whatever belief you disagree with that some (possibly most) jews hold in common.

[Amnesiac]

Alright I suppose it does seem kind of ridiculous to be giving so much money away. I could maybe understand if they were helping us out or if we weren't fifteen trillion dollars in debt. Are you saying that Israel shouldn't be where they are? How has it abused it's existence? Who's to say that there would even be a problem if Iraq hadn't waged war on them in the first place?

Israel is a tough country to explain. It's really wedged into a terrible spot, and its existence isn't necessary at all – the Zionist movement has created one of the ugliest clusterfucks in human history. There isn't a better example of political instability than the Middle East, precisely because of colonialism and the belief that the Jews need a homeland. Uprooting thousands of years of established Palestinian settlement in the region to create a nation was never going to work.

So yes, in effect I am saying that Israel doesn't really belong where it is now. The Jewish population would benefit more if it assimilated into countries that welcome it – there's a reason why the United States has the highest population of Jews.

Israel was given set boundaries when it was established in the aftermath of World War II and the British withdrawal from Palestine. While it's absolutely true that the Arab nations around it have tried, on multiple occasions, to invade Israel, that's not to say that the Israelis haven't done the same thing in return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War). Israel continues to unfairly occupy some of the territory it captured in that war to this day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories).

It's not fair to look at one side of this conflict as "evil" (the Arabs) and the other as "good" (the Israelis). Both sides are at fault, and both sides have equally weak justification for their actions. However, ultimately, the situation boils down to the uprooting of the Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a nation whose entire existence is based on some sort of religious commandment. As a result, there probably never will be peace in the region. Is that worth it?

[Genghis Khan]

Justin beat me to it, that a great summary of the facts.

I don't think Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but its existence was pretty unnecessary if you look at history and the facts. The world could have benefited a lot more if the Jews had separate country somewhere in Europe or just dispersed into several European countries.

Now that they're controlling Palestine the Zionist Jews are expanding settlements, forcing the indigenous Palestinian population to migrate to Jordan, Syria and other Arab countries.

Not only would the Arabs have benefited but so would've the Jews themselves, now they have neighbours who intensely despise them and don't want anything to do with them.

Imagine if the Arab world had formed something similar to the European Union and decided to cut off their oil supply to America under the condition that Israel hands the land back to the Palestinians. That would be a powerful strategy and put both the U.S and Israel in such a predicament.

--

The ideal situation is Palestinians and Israelis can trust each other enough to form a democratic government but that's a Utopian idea that will never happen. Arabs will always support groups that call for the death of Israel and the Israelis will never trust Arabs.

It's a tough question OP, but if I were to sum up my opinion it would be pro-palestine, although what I'm ideally for is Israelis forming a democratic state giving equal opportunity to both ethnicities especially since they're consanguineous, but after being pro -what ever that was- I'm pro-palestine in the sense that I think both parties would be at an advantage from leaving Palestine to the Arabs and leaving the rest of the world for the Jews.

[Rage of the Menace]

Justin beat me to it, that a great summary of the facts.

I don't think Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but its existence was pretty unnecessary if you look at history and the facts. The world could have benefited a lot more if the Jews had separate country somewhere in Europe or just dispersed into several European countries.

Now that they're controlling Palestine the Zionist Jews are expanding settlements, forcing the indigenous Palestinian population to migrate to Jordan, Syria and other Arab countries.

Not only would the Arabs have benefited but so would've the Jews themselves, now they have neighbours who intensely despise them and don't want anything to do with them.

Imagine if the Arab world had formed something similar to the European Union and decided to cut off their oil supply to America under the condition that Israel hands the land back to the Palestinians. That would be a powerful strategy and put both the U.S and Israel in such a predicament.

--

The ideal situation is Palestinians and Israelis can trust each other enough to form a democratic government but that's a Utopian idea that will never happen. Arabs will always support groups that call for the death of Israel and the Israelis will never trust Arabs.

It's a tough question OP, but if I were to sum up my opinion it would be pro-palestine, although what I'm ideally for is Israelis forming a democratic state giving equal opportunity to both ethnicities especially since they're consanguineous, but after being pro -what ever that was- I'm pro-palestine in the sense that I think both parties would be at an advantage from leaving Palestine to the Arabs and leaving the rest of the world for the Jews.

Spoke my mind. Also, i come from Lebanon, once a prosperous country, the equivalent of the UAE before Israel arrived. What happened? Well, Palestinians are nearly all Muslim, by uprooting these Muslim Palestinians from Palestine and placing them in border countries, predominantly Lebanon, caused a civil war which caused drastic damage to Lebanon's social, economical, ethnic and political stability.

I am a victim of this, my mother having to leave Lebanon 35 years ago, my father having family killed, my grandfather being blinded, my entire grandfathers family having to migrate to America and Australia. Now, the stability in Lebanon is no more, the major ethnic group in Lebanon at the time, the Maronites (Catholics who follow the teachings of Saint Maron and traditionally spoke Syriac) has populations in other countries amounting to up to 4-5 times the population in Lebanon.

Who was the root of this entire chain of events? Israel. Destroyed my country, destroyed Palestine, and will continue to terrorize the Middle-East. For what? Tell me, please. Do they have the right to do what they did? Did international law allow it? Pathetic America whom supposedly promotes peace and freedom has done this to an entire cultural and political region.

[StoppingTime]

Where's Sean when I need him....
Anyway...

I don't necessarily think Israel should "cease to exist," but I do think the amount of support the United States gives it is absolutely ridiculous – $15 billion a year for what?

I too agree that we shouldn't be giving them nearly that much. People underestimate Israel anyway, and can provide for itself quite well.


To bolster a country that has abused its existence and worsened relations in the region by continuing to expand its territory into areas that it's not supposed to be in? Yes, I'm well aware that the Arab governments aren't doing much to help the peace process either, but in reality Israel also holds a large chunk of the blame.

This is what I never understood about this entire debate? Why is it that Israel never has a right to do anything? Syria's killing thousands of its own people every day. Arab countries will do anything to wipe Israel from the map. But Israel doesn't want to do the same to them. They've played defensive seen 2006. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world/africa/13iht-web.0713mideast.2188501.html?_r=1)


Alright I suppose it does seem kind of ridiculous to be giving so much money away. I could maybe understand if they were helping us out or if we weren't fifteen trillion dollars in debt.

That is a separate issue, but either way, I don't think they need that much at all.


Are you saying that Israel shouldn't be where they are? How has it abused it's existence? Who's to say that there would even be a problem if Iraq hadn't waged war on them in the first place?

Iraq never waged war on Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I don't hate jews, just some of their values.

So you basically hate the idea of the state. They don't deserve one. But autocratic, Arab countries can abuse their women, and population, but it's all right?


Hmmm I think that's true of most religions. For instance a lot of people have misguided views on what Christians think about gays. The reality is that not ALL christians hold this belief. I assume that is true of whatever belief you disagree with that some (possibly most) jews hold in common.

Not all Jews think the state should be controlled in a "Jewish" way. I am kind of split as to whether it should be a "Jewish government" or not. But once again, why is it that Israel, a state the size of New Jersey, gets harassed by Arab countries who really are only doing because they are Jews?

Israel is a tough country to explain. It's really wedged into a terrible spot, and its existence isn't necessary at all – the Zionist movement has created one of the ugliest clusterfucks in human history.


Why isn't its existence necessary? Or, a better question, why don't you think it should be there?


There isn't a better example of political instability than the Middle East, precisely because of colonialism and the belief that the Jews need a homeland. Uprooting thousands of years of established Palestinian settlement in the region to create a nation was never going to work.

Then why do the Muslims need one? The UAE? Why is that allowed to exist, but not Israel?
After the Jewish exile in 70 CE when the Second Temple was destroyed, just about every Jew was in exile, mostly to Babylonia. Over the next 1500+ years, they would be traveling around Europe. They were somewhat successful, until everyone thought they would take over the country, and then they would be exiled. They were fighting persecution from the Christians, Muslims, etc...
I am not saying the other religions weren't as well, but just describing the Jewish part. Then, after the inquisition (skipping ahead a few hundred years), they were settled for the most part, but they knew that their orignal homeland was still far out of reach.
Skip ahead about 200 years, Hitler, Holocaust. Over six million Jews killed, and having nowhere to go back to. Three years later, Israel is established.
After almost two thousand years, they were able to return.
And yes, I know it doesn't always make sense to play the "well, we were there first game," but there is my reason as to why I think the Jews deserve a homeland.


So yes, in effect I am saying that Israel doesn't really belong where it is now. The Jewish population would benefit more if it assimilated into countries that welcome it – there's a reason why the United States has the highest population of Jews.

This is because Israel was established 60+ years ago, America, over 200. They've had a little more time to come at get settled here. But more and more Jews are emigrating to Israel, so we'll see if that number changes anytime soon.


Israel was given set boundaries when it was established in the aftermath of World War II and the British withdrawal from Palestine. While it's absolutely true that the Arab nations around it have tried, on multiple occasions, to invade Israel, that's not to say that the Israelis haven't done the same thing in return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War).

At that time, there was the two state solution, which worked for a little while.
And yes, later, Israel would conquer more land from the Arabs.
But why is it wrong for a country to conquer land that people live in? It only seems to be a problem when Israel does this, yet it had been done countless times in history.
And I'm not saying that Israel wasn't to greedy, because I can see that they did in fact take more land then they should have.
On the other hand, you are talking about a country so small taking land so that the new country could actually be able to prosper. Of course it was wrong for them to take Gaza in the first place, Golan, (which they still have), and Sinai, since they really never had occupation there anyway.


Israel continues to unfairly occupy some of the territory it captured in that war to this day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories).

It's not fair to look at one side of this conflict as "evil" (the Arabs) and the other as "good" (the Israelis). Both sides are at fault, and both sides have equally weak justification for their actions. However, ultimately, the situation boils down to the uprooting of the Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a nation whose entire existence is based on some sort of religious commandment. As a result, there probably never will be peace in the region. Is that worth it?

I don't know about "religious commandment". Yes, they wanted the Promised Land back. The again, you could look at it as wanting land that was taken from them 2000 years ago.
I don't see why the Israeli's should cave just because they conquered land. No, it wasn't helpful to the Arabs. But how come when Arabs fire into Israel, it's for their protection, but when Israel fires into Arab territory (which they haven't done, unprovoked, in a while), they are trying to capture more land?

Justin beat me to it, that a great summary of the facts.

I don't think Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but its existence was pretty unnecessary if you look at history and the facts. The world could have benefited a lot more if the Jews had separate country somewhere in Europe or just dispersed into several European countries.

Sure, lets just through them out in Uganda. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Programme)



Now that they're controlling Palestine the Zionist Jews are expanding settlements, forcing the indigenous Palestinian population to migrate to Jordan, Syria and other Arab countries.

Indigenous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_history_in_the_region_of_Palestine)?



Not only would the Arabs have benefited but so would've the Jews themselves, now they have neighbours who intensely despise them and don't want anything to do with them.

They hated them anyway...



Imagine if the Arab world had formed something similar to the European Union and decided to cut off their oil supply to America under the condition that Israel hands the land back to the Palestinians. That would be a powerful strategy and put both the U.S and Israel in such a predicament.

--


The ideal situation is Palestinians and Israelis can trust each other enough to form a democratic government but that's a Utopian idea that will never happen. Arabs will always support groups that call for the death of Israel and the Israelis will never trust Arabs.

Even as pro-Israel, I'd much rather see this.



It's a tough question OP, but if I were to sum up my opinion it would be pro-palestine, although what I'm ideally for is Israelis forming a democratic state giving equal opportunity to both ethnicities especially since they're consanguineous, but after being pro -what ever that was- I'm pro-palestine in the sense that I think both parties would be at an advantage from leaving Palestine to the Arabs and leaving the rest of the world for the Jews.

Right, the Arabs get to add a New-Jersey sized area that has been historical to the Jews, and other religions for thousands of years so that the "original inhabitants" can go back. I don't know, it just doesn't seem fair that the Arabs would then get everything they wanted, and the Jews, nothing.

Spoke my mind. Also, i come from Lebanon, once a prosperous country, the equivalent of the UAE before Israel arrived. What happened? Well, Palestinians are nearly all Muslim, by uprooting these Muslim Palestinians from Palestine and placing them in border countries, predominantly Lebanon, caused a civil war which caused drastic damage to Lebanon's social, economical, ethnic and political stability.

I am a victim of this, my mother having to leave Lebanon 35 years ago, my father having family killed, my grandfather being blinded, my entire grandfathers family having to migrate to America and Australia. Now, the stability in Lebanon is no more, the major ethnic group in Lebanon at the time, the Maronites (Catholics who follow the teachings of Saint Maron and traditionally spoke Syriac) has populations in other countries amounting to up to 4-5 times the population in Lebanon.

Who was the root of this entire chain of events? Israel. Destroyed my country, destroyed Palestine, and will continue to terrorize the Middle-East. For what? Tell me, please. Do they have the right to do what they did? Did international law allow it? Pathetic America whom supposedly promotes peace and freedom has done this to an entire cultural and political region.


But the Jews should just suffer for eternity in the rest of the world. That's fair too.

[Magus]

"But autocratic, Arab countries
can abuse their women, and population, but it's
all right?"

This is a joke, right?

Wait till I get my computer. And maybe I will debunk some of the misconceptions.

[StoppingTime]

"But autocratic, Arab countries
can abuse their women, and population, but it's
all right?"

This is a joke, right?

Wait till I get my computer. And maybe I will debunk some of the misconceptions.

Look, I wasn't really thinking about what I have been saying. But yes, women are treated as second class in some of those countries, and no, that really doesn't have anything to do with this.


I really am not interested in arguing this here because of the ridiculous bias here.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

My understanding was that the land that is Israel was under the control of the British when it was turned over to the Jews. If it wasn't the Arab's land when it was given to the Jews what's the problem? I realize there were still Arabs living there, but like I said Britain had every right to give the land to Israel. My understanding was that one reason the holocaust was inacted was do to the fact that the jews had no where to go. Hitler's solution was to kill them all. When Britain gave the land to the Jews they obviously thought it was a solution also.

[Magus]

I really am not interested in arguing this here because of the ridiculous bias here.

Imagine this.

You are living nicely in your home country. Then some people out of no where come and throw you out of your home(by armed soldier, mind you), claiming that this land belongs to them and them only. And you are left stranded in some other foreign country with no hope in returning to your home.

Now, supporting those people who were deported out from their own country, their own home is now called bias?

Check this guy.
normanfinkelstein.com

'When Britain gave
the land to the Jews they obviously thought it
was a solution also.'
The British owned a lot of countries, for eg. India.

[StoppingTime]

My understanding was that the land that is Israel was under the control of the British when it was turned over to the Jews. If it wasn't the Arab's land when it was given to the Jews what's the problem? I realize there were still Arabs living there, but like I said Britain had every right to give the land to Israel. My understanding was that one reason the holocaust was inacted was do to the fact that the jews had no where to go. Hitler's solution was to kill them all. When Britain gave the land to the Jews they obviously thought it was a solution also.

Yes, it was under the British Mandate after being captured from the Ottomans in the early 1900's.

Yes, they did have the right. But it also did make some of their (Arabs) lives, quite hard, which is why it's so controversial. Also, everyone surrounding Israel hates Israel, whether it be because of Jews, how it's run, etc...

Hitler had other reasons (or lack thereof) of murdering the Jews, but that really isn't important here.

And Herzl (yes, all you anti-Zionists, I said Herzl), wanted there to be a home for the Jews, and it was negotiated into a two state solution at that time, with Jerusalem belonging to nobody.



Imagine this.

You are living nicely in your home country. Then some people out of no where come and throw you out of your home(by armed soldier, mind you), claiming that this land belongs to them and them only. And you are left stranded in some other foreign country with no hope in returning to your home.

Now, supporting those people who were deported out from their own country, their own home is now called bias?

Check this guy.
normanfinkelstein.com


I didn't mean bias because of personal stories, I meant it by the overwhelmingly liberal, anti-Israel, atheist bias which is basically a bashfest on anyone who thinks otherwise.

[PerpetualImperfexion]

Yes, they did have the right. But it also did make some of their (Arabs) lives, quite hard, which is why it's so controversial. Also, everyone surrounding Israel hates Israel, whether it be because of Jews, how it's run, etc...

Alright I'm willing to admit that they probably didn't think the entire thing out before doing this. Now that they're there now though there isn't much we can do. The United States will probably continue to support Israel because, well, dropping allies outta know where doesn't look very good. I assume that's one reason we continue the relationship we have with them?

Hitler had other reasons (or lack thereof) of murdering the Jews, but that really isn't important here.

Yep I said that ONE of the reasons for what he did was that the Jews didn't have a home. I also understand that he thought his race was superior, etc, etc.

[Magus]

The root of " overwhelmingly liberal, anti-
Israel, atheist bias" is because of "personal stories" -whatever that means.

The Roma people didn't have home. But does that mean they have the right the kick out the inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir and destroy homes and start making their own colonies there, because that's where they are originally from?

[StoppingTime]

The root of " overwhelmingly liberal, anti-
Israel, atheist bias" is because of "personal stories" -whatever that means.

The Roma people didn't have home. But does that mean they have the right the kick out the inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir and destroy homes and start making their own colonies there, because that's where they are originally from?

I never said they should have. I think they could have worked around that, but they didn't.
But yes, they acquired the land, so they did have the right.

[khila]

because it is not even suppose to be there the U.S. thought it was the right thing to do...guess what everyone has varying point of veiws and this may be a very highly reconigzed one i say that jews should have been given a home but not a new nation which forced away others from land why didn't the U.S. just bring them all into its own borders...

[Truth]

Look, I wasn't really thinking about what I have been saying. But yes, women are treated as second class in some of those countries, and no, that really doesn't have anything to do with this.


I really am not interested in arguing this here because of the ridiculous bias here. Zionism has fuck all to do with the way women are treated, trust me on that. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're even arguing about?

Zionism is the concept that jewish people should control the entire world with riches behind the strings, and slaughter the palestinian people to get back their "sacred home land". It hides these goals with the excuse that "jewish people should have a state", which they have for the past 60 years. The land they are entitled to, they have had for 60 years, yet are still waging war on Palestinians.

If you're unaware, Zionist Jews make up about half of the USA's politicians, that is just how influential the Zionist ideology is. It can remain hidden to the public yet it can infiltrate the government and take over america in just a few years.
Look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option , an idea the Zionists came up with.



"Let's take a look at where some (few) of these people are: Paul Dundes Wolfowitz * not long ago was the Deputy Secretary, Department of Defense and now President of the World Bank, Richard Perle - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy, Ari Fleischer - was White House Press Secretary and a director of World Jewish Congress, Josh Bolten - Deputy Chief of Staff, Ken Melman - White House Political Director, Jay Lefkowitz - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council, Daniel Fried - Special Assistant to President and Senior Director for European and Eurasian Affairs, David Frum * Speechwriter-wrote the axis of evil speech-, Brad Blakeman - White House Director of Scheduling( he decides who sees Bush and who doesn't), Dov Zakheim - Undersecretary of Defense (Controller), decides where the money goes, I. Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff to the Vice President, should be tried for treason for exposing Valerie Plame, a CIA agent, Elliott Abrams , an Israeli- now Director of the National Security Council's Office for Near East affairs, that's the office overseeing the U.S. Middle East policy. Abrams' appointment is viewed as "a gift from heaven" for 'Israel.' , Douglas Feith * an Israeli,was Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and was responsible for making up the big lies about Iraq buying Uranium from Africa, very close to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Michael Chertoff * Homeland Security Secretary, Allen Greenspan, Federal Reserve Chairman, a private firm that controls ALL financial aspects of the country, and many, many more. You can see some of them in this partial list. Add to that, most Ambassadors to Europe and to countries that count, plus most advisors on the National Security Council and other sensitive government positions. This gang and others were the ones who conned America into going to war against Iraq for Israel...

Senator William Fullbright of Arkansas who served until 1975 said, " Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; what Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater." This was back in the Seventies, now they wield partial to total control over 95 Senators and all 435 members of the House except maybe 23. Listen to Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: " I've never seen a President- I don't care who he is- stand up to them. They always get what they want, If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms." Paul Findley, a US Congressman for 22 years noted on the subject that:

"Israel is able to stifle free speech, control our Congress, and even dictate our foreign policy."

I would conclude by saying that the Zionists in America now are in the same position they were in back in 1948 in Palestine where they were in total control of the land but not the people. They were not interested in the people; they just wanted the land. In the case of America they are in total control of its people and resources, they are not interested in the land. They just want people to fight wars and the people's money to finance their ambitions."

[StoppingTime]

Zionism has fuck all to do with the way women are treated, trust me on that. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're even arguing about?

Zionism is the concept that jewish people should control the entire world with riches behind the strings, and slaughter the palestinian people to get back their "sacred home land". It hides these goals with the excuse that "jewish people should have a state", which they have for the past 60 years.

Jews aren't mass murderers who want to kill every Arab/Muslim in the world.
They don't want to control the world, where exactly are you getting this?

[PerpetualImperfexion]

because it is not even suppose to be there the U.S. thought it was the right thing to do...guess what everyone has varying point of veiws and this may be a very highly reconigzed one i say that jews should have been given a home but not a new nation which forced away others from land why didn't the U.S. just bring them all into its own borders...

ehhh just wanna say the US didn't hand the land over to the Jews, it was Britain. Inviting them into the US wouldn't have made them happy. They needed a place they could call their own. It got me thinking though, if Israel suddenly popped up in your country how would you feel?

[Truth]

Jews aren't mass murderers who want to kill every Arab/Muslim in the world.
They don't want to control the world, where exactly are you getting this? Zionists are, though. Try reading the things I post, please? You can't debate if you don't read.

Zionists currently are controlling the USA!

[Rage of the Menace]

Zionism has fuck all to do with the way women are treated, trust me on that. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're even arguing about?

Zionism is the concept that jewish people should control the entire world with riches behind the strings, and slaughter the palestinian people to get back their "sacred home land". It hides these goals with the excuse that "jewish people should have a state", which they have for the past 60 years. The land they are entitled to, they have had for 60 years, yet are still waging war on Palestinians.

If you're unaware, Zionist Jews make up about half of the USA's politicians, that is just how influential the Zionist ideology is. It can remain hidden to the public yet it can infiltrate the government and take over america in just a few years.
Look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option , an idea the Zionists came up with.



"Let's take a look at where some (few) of these people are: Paul Dundes Wolfowitz * not long ago was the Deputy Secretary, Department of Defense and now President of the World Bank, Richard Perle - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy, Ari Fleischer - was White House Press Secretary and a director of World Jewish Congress, Josh Bolten - Deputy Chief of Staff, Ken Melman - White House Political Director, Jay Lefkowitz - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council, Daniel Fried - Special Assistant to President and Senior Director for European and Eurasian Affairs, David Frum * Speechwriter-wrote the axis of evil speech-, Brad Blakeman - White House Director of Scheduling( he decides who sees Bush and who doesn't), Dov Zakheim - Undersecretary of Defense (Controller), decides where the money goes, I. Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff to the Vice President, should be tried for treason for exposing Valerie Plame, a CIA agent, Elliott Abrams , an Israeli- now Director of the National Security Council's Office for Near East affairs, that's the office overseeing the U.S. Middle East policy. Abrams' appointment is viewed as "a gift from heaven" for 'Israel.' , Douglas Feith * an Israeli,was Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and was responsible for making up the big lies about Iraq buying Uranium from Africa, very close to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Michael Chertoff * Homeland Security Secretary, Allen Greenspan, Federal Reserve Chairman, a private firm that controls ALL financial aspects of the country, and many, many more. You can see some of them in this partial list. Add to that, most Ambassadors to Europe and to countries that count, plus most advisors on the National Security Council and other sensitive government positions. This gang and others were the ones who conned America into going to war against Iraq for Israel...

Senator William Fullbright of Arkansas who served until 1975 said, " Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; what Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater." This was back in the Seventies, now they wield partial to total control over 95 Senators and all 435 members of the House except maybe 23. Listen to Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: " I've never seen a President- I don't care who he is- stand up to them. They always get what they want, If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms." Paul Findley, a US Congressman for 22 years noted on the subject that:

"Israel is able to stifle free speech, control our Congress, and even dictate our foreign policy."

I would conclude by saying that the Zionists in America now are in the same position they were in back in 1948 in Palestine where they were in total control of the land but not the people. They were not interested in the people; they just wanted the land. In the case of America they are in total control of its people and resources, they are not interested in the land. They just want people to fight wars and the people's money to finance their ambitions."

Indeed.

Hitler had a point after all. >.>

[Magus]

Jews aren't mass murderers who want to kill every Arab/Muslim in the world.
They don't want to control the world, where exactly are you getting this?

No. They didn't shell children with white phosphorus. The death of Muhammad al-Durrah was staged.

This is all fake, don't worry.

rwPna9Oxh8o

Truth. I love you man.

[Truth]

No. They didn't shell children with white phosphorus. The death of Muhammad al-Durrah was staged.

This is all fake, don't worry.

rwPna9Oxh8o

Truth. I love you man. :wub:

It's a sad truth, but Zionism can easily be compared to Nazism, but it's a lot stealthier and more successful.

[Gothicdeer]

Sounds more like a conspiracy by William Cooper Truth my man

[Truth]

Sounds more like a conspiracy by William Cooper Truth my man You don't need to believe me, I simply present facts. I can't force you to believe the facts, or do any studying on your own. It's completely up to you whether or not to use your brain and develop an opinion on something that effects the world greatly, like Zionism.

This world doesn't work as simply as you think it does. There is hundreds of groups that are out to make your life worse, ones that are totally covered up and have a lot of political power.

[Gothicdeer]

I do a lot of conspiracy research and I learned 1 thing...it can't be 'changed...sadly to say unlesseveryone believed and voiced their opinions to their state senator then the police state WILL happen...the sheep are ready to sheer

[Truth]

I do a lot of conspiracy research and I learned 1 thing...it can't be 'changed...sadly to say unlesseveryone believed and voiced their opinions to their state senator then the police state WILL happen...the sheep are ready to sheer Ever heard of anonymous? They have exposed many corporations and governments, making their plans public.

Anyone can do it.

[Gothicdeer]

Ever heard of anonymous? They have exposed many corporations and governments, making their plans public.

Anyone can do it.

Has anything changed? I'm going to college for Political Science (I hope) and I have an extreme interest in law and politics and when one thing is surfaced they remove then re word it then stick it under something else

[Truth]

Has anything changed? I'm going to college for Political Science (I hope) and I have an extreme interest in law and politics and when one thing is surfaced they remove then re word it then stick it under something else In many countries, yes. Certain companies have fallen, government plans destroyed, and legislation voted against.

WikiLeaks, for example. It presented 100's of thousands of transactions between the government and companies.

[Gothicdeer]

Just like how American companies backed up the Nazis

[Truth]

Just like how American companies backed up the Nazis That is my point exactly. The american government currently supports the existance of Zionism, and it needs to change.

I have nothing against Jews, just Zionists.

[Gothicdeer]

For once we can agree on something XD

[Magus]

I have nothing against Jews, just Zionists.

And Zionist are not necessarily Jews.

They could be Arabs or Africans anything, regardless of ethnicity or religious affiliation.

Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic.

[Truth]

And Zionist are not necessarily Jews.

They could be Arabs or Africans anything, regardless of ethnicity or religious affiliation.

Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitic. I know, but generally when you dis-like Zionism you're automatically called anti-semetic by other people.

[Genghis Khan]

This is what I never understood about this entire debate? Why is it that Israel never has a right to do anything? Syria's killing thousands of its own people every day. Arab countries will do anything to wipe Israel from the map. But Israel doesn't want to do the same to them. They've played defensive seen 2006. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world/africa/13iht-web.0713mideast.2188501.html?_r=1)

Considering Israel has stockpiles of illegal weaponry and is backed up by the most powerful tyrannical country (the U.S if you still hadn't guessed) when it's expanding settlements and throwing Palestinians out of their homes, I'd say Israel has way too many rights. What a stupid thing to say, 'Israel doesn't have a right to do anything'. It's been pampered and pleased since its birth, because of countless backup and weapon supply from the U.S it's managed to win every single war and do pretty much whatever it wants.

So you basically hate the idea of the state. They don't deserve one. But autocratic, Arab countries can abuse their women, and population, but it's all right?

Whatever a population decides to do in its own land is its own problem. You're not one to invade and impose more difficulties and restrictions on them.


Not all Jews think the state should be controlled in a "Jewish" way. I am kind of split as to whether it should be a "Jewish government" or not. But once again, why is it that Israel, a state the size of New Jersey, gets harassed by Arab countries who really are only doing because they are Jews?

You're only killing Palestinians because you're Jews? Well why didn't you say so! For a second we thought you didn't have a good reason to destroy homes and expand your settlements.

Why isn't its existence necessary? Or, a better question, why don't you think it should be there?

I don't see why it should be there. There could've been infinitely less conflict and animosity if Jews had settled in Europe or America and not invaded Palestine through the West just because of some archaic scripture. If the Qur'an said that England is promised land for Muslims, do you think Muslims should have a right then, to fight the English population and massacre them, exile them, all because of their stupid religion? Fuck no.

Then why do the Muslims need one? The UAE? Why is that allowed to exist, but not Israel?

Because the UAE doesn't consist of a diminishing population of 'natives' or whatever because some people thought it was a good idea to just tell them to fuck off.

After the Jewish exile in 70 CE when the Second Temple was destroyed, just about every Jew was in exile, mostly to Babylonia. Over the next 1500+ years, they would be traveling around Europe. They were somewhat successful, until everyone thought they would take over the country, and then they would be exiled. They were fighting persecution from the Christians, Muslims, etc...
I am not saying the other religions weren't as well, but just describing the Jewish part. Then, after the inquisition (skipping ahead a few hundred years), they were settled for the most part, but they knew that their orignal homeland was still far out of reach.
Skip ahead about 200 years, Hitler, Holocaust. Over six million Jews killed, and having nowhere to go back to. Three years later, Israel is established.
After almost two thousand years, they were able to return.
And yes, I know it doesn't always make sense to play the "well, we were there first game," but there is my reason as to why I think the Jews deserve a homeland.

Regardless of what happened in the past, no one should forcefully take over a land and persecute the settled people there to make up for whatever happened in Biblical times. Terrible historical events don't give you the justification to carry out some mass genocide like Hitler tried and he did with the Jews.


At that time, there was the two state solution, which worked for a little while.
And yes, later, Israel would conquer more land from the Arabs.
But why is it wrong for a country to conquer land that people live in? It only seems to be a problem when Israel does this, yet it had been done countless times in history.

So it was okay when the Europeans killed off the native Americans then? According to your logic it's okay for a country to conquer land that people live in.

Here's a little breakdown of why it's wrong. When outsiders invade a country by force, they can impose whatever authoritarian rules they want to benefit themselves. This has been done with the subcontinent when the Pashtun and Mughal emperors ruled over India, when Arabs came to invade Sindh, these emperors were ferocious with the natives, they treated them like dirt, stole stockpiles of wealth, killed them, massacred them and fucked off.

I can't believe I even have to point this out, and the only comeback pro-israelis can make to that is 'well they fuck up their own shit anyway, so why can't we just fuck them too?'


Sure, lets just through them out in Uganda. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Programme)

Or, take them into America and Europe. Where Jews are still extremely successful.

Right, the Arabs get to add a New-Jersey sized area that has been historical to the Jews, and other religions for thousands of years so that the "original inhabitants" can go back. I don't know, it just doesn't seem fair that the Arabs would then get everything they wanted, and the Jews, nothing.

Everything they wanted? Like... land? Do you really think Arabs have had that much of an impact on the world that they can get 'everything they wanted'? And in the end Jews just come out with nothing? I mean, I understand why Jews would want their own land and in an ideal world, they should have got their land. But even if you don't have your land, you have infinite success in the most powerful country in the world. Jews own the biggest financial institutions in the U.S, there's a huge population of Jews living happily in America. Arabs have nothing dude. They mostly have tribal systems and (finally) a struggle for some kind of democracy. Jews have outdone the world, how big of a deal would it be if you had just stuck to living in Europe or the U.S or even Canada at the expense of some Arabs being able to live in what you think is your land.


But the Jews should just suffer for eternity in the rest of the world. That's fair too.

Yeah those poor Jews and their terrible lives under piles and piles of wealth in the West, boy I feel so much pity for the successful Zionists who manipulate and control Obama through the medium of their economic power. How dare I even... I must be so heinously cruel to point at those poor suffering Jews who make Obama VETO U.N resolutions to control settlement expansions in Israel so that other POOR Jews can't throw Palestinians out of their land.

It's times like these that I just love Noam Chomsky;

BM7IFBIfQ1M

[Amnesiac]

I too agree that we shouldn't be giving them nearly that much. People underestimate Israel anyway, and can provide for itself quite well.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure most people on here agree that meddling in Middle Eastern affairs is of absolutely no benefit to the United States.

This is what I never understood about this entire debate? Why is it that Israel never has a right to do anything? Syria's killing thousands of its own people every day. Arab countries will do anything to wipe Israel from the map. But Israel doesn't want to do the same to them. They've played defensive seen 2006. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/world/africa/13iht-web.0713mideast.2188501.html?_r=1)

Israel was given limitations on its size when it was established in 1947. The United Nations specified that the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs were to share the land and that Jerusalem was supposed to be an "international zone". Really, Israel was granted its existence by the British out of sympathy, and not much else. Since then it has gone and expanded into the West Bank, and now claims Jerusalem as its own city. It did not have the right to do these things and violate international law and the sovereignty of the ethnic groups it is uprooting. This isn't the same as Syria, which is conducting its own actions within its own country. And I'd hardly say the Arab nations are overtly hostile to Israel, they just refuse to recognize its existence. It's independent Arab groups who carry out a majority of the opposition to Israel's existence, mainly because they view it as their homeland in the same way that the Zionists do.

Then why do the Muslims need one? The UAE? Why is that allowed to exist, but not Israel?

Because all of this:

After the Jewish exile in 70 CE when the Second Temple was destroyed, just about every Jew was in exile, mostly to Babylonia. Over the next 1500+ years, they would be traveling around Europe. They were somewhat successful, until everyone thought they would take over the country, and then they would be exiled. They were fighting persecution from the Christians, Muslims, etc...
I am not saying the other religions weren't as well, but just describing the Jewish part. Then, after the inquisition (skipping ahead a few hundred years), they were settled for the most part, but they knew that their orignal homeland was still far out of reach.[/QUOTE]

is history. Modern territorial organization shouldn't be based on where an ethnic group was centuries ago. The most appropriate term for use here would be "shit happens". Plenty of ethnic and religious groups have been exiled and dispersed throughout history, yet that doesn't justify moving them back to their "homelands" after such a long period of time has passed.

Skip ahead about 200 years, Hitler, Holocaust. Over six million Jews killed, and having nowhere to go back to. Three years later, Israel is established.
After almost two thousand years, they were able to return.
And yes, I know it doesn't always make sense to play the "well, we were there first game," but there is my reason as to why I think the Jews deserve a homeland.

Nobody's going to deny that the Holocaust was an atrocity. However, I really doubt the Jews "had nowhere to go" in its aftermath. Jewish people are widely accepted in many parts of the world, especially the West, and would be much, much safer if they had resettled in Europe and the U.S. One can't simply walk into the Middle East. Why resettle in a region full of so much religious animosity?

This is because Israel was established 60+ years ago, America, over 200. They've had a little more time to come at get settled here. But more and more Jews are emigrating to Israel, so we'll see if that number changes anytime soon.

I guess, but the Jewish minority in the United States enjoys a lot of political power and respect. It's simply better for them here.

At that time, there was the two state solution, which worked for a little while.
And yes, later, Israel would conquer more land from the Arabs.
But why is it wrong for a country to conquer land that people live in? It only seems to be a problem when Israel does this, yet it had been done countless times in history.

Because, as I said above, Israel was supposed to share that land with the Palestinians. That was never its land. It should not be its land. We're talking about modern history here, where it's simply not acceptable for a country to waltz in and take another's land. The point is that the Palestinians were settled there for over 1,000 years. What happened back in ancient times, when conquering was acceptable, isn't relevant anymore. There was an established population in that area that was simply pushed to the side, as if they didn't matter. That's not acceptable in today's world.

And I'm not saying that Israel wasn't to greedy, because I can see that they did in fact take more land then they should have.
On the other hand, you are talking about a country so small taking land so that the new country could actually be able to prosper. Of course it was wrong for them to take Gaza in the first place, Golan, (which they still have), and Sinai, since they really never had occupation there anyway.

What benefit does Israel receive from having Jerusalem and the West Bank, besides angering the Palestinians who were pushed into those corners in the first place?

I don't know about "religious commandment". Yes, they wanted the Promised Land back. The again, you could look at it as wanting land that was taken from them 2000 years ago.

Neither of those are excuses for the actions of the Zionists in the modern world. If something happened two thousand years ago, then it happened. It doesn't matter anymore. It's not relevant. It's time to move on.

I don't see why the Israeli's should cave just because they conquered land. No, it wasn't helpful to the Arabs. But how come when Arabs fire into Israel, it's for their protection, but when Israel fires into Arab territory (which they haven't done, unprovoked, in a while), they are trying to capture more land?

Because the Arabs are, as they see it, trying to defend land that was theirs for over 1500 years. They've tried to put up with the two-state solution, but Israel continues to occupy and build settlements in what was supposed to be Palestinian land. Arab groups are definitely influenced by religious differences, but they're also fighting against what they perceive as oppression and discrimination by the Israeli government. This will continue as long as Israel continues to defy U.N. resolutions and expand in to the West Bank and other regions.

[Magus]

Where's Sean when I need him....
Anyway...Shalom Bar Mitzvah Mossad.


I too agree that we shouldn't be giving them nearly that much. People underestimate Israel anyway, and can provide for itself quite well. Hmm, I wonder where they got all that F-35s, hmm...


This is what I never understood about this entire debate? Why is it that Israel never has a right to do anything?Perhaps, because most of the thing they do is against International laws and basic human moral conducts.

Syria's killing thousands of its own people every day.That's not a new news, is it? And you think people are liking it? Strange way you draw comparisons.

Arab countries will do anything to wipe Israel from the map.Arab don't want to commit a holocaust, because that's very evil, you know.

But Israel doesn't want to do the same to them.
Err, Palestine?


So you basically hate the idea of the state. They don't deserve one. But autocratic, Arab countries can abuse their women, and population, but it's all right?
Arab countries abusing their women. How true. My mom, aunts and cousins are all abused and treated as second class citizen ;( -- not really. The women are really faring well, in the Arab countries. I can make an exception to Saudi Arabia, because, you know, they are conservatives.


Not all Jews think the state should be controlled in a "Jewish" way.
Doesn't make a difference.


But once again, why is it that Israel, a state the size of New Jersey, gets harassed by Arab countries who really are only doing because they are Jews?Because of Palestine? Must I remind you this every second? By the way, there are Arab Jews.

Why isn't its existence necessary? Or, a better question, why don't you think it should be there?A Jewish state for the Jews only, where native Arabs(Muslim/Christians) are treated as dirt? That's a country? Shit, it's even far more worse than Nazi Germany.

Then why do the Muslims need one?
Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity. They don't have one. Saudi Arabia is just a center for Muslims, it's not their country. Did any of the Muslim got a Saudi nationality because they are Muslims? Nope.

The UAE? Why is that allowed to exist, but not Israel?
U.A.E is a shared Kingdom. Israel is not.

having nowhere to go back to.
That's the most blatant lie ever committed. Where were they before that? Homes wrecked? London was a pile of rubble, but they got it back up, no?


but there is my reason as to why I think the Jews deserve a homeland.Yeah, and forget about other ethnicities.


This is because Israel was established 60+ years ago, America, over 200. They've had a little more time to come at get settled here. But more and more Jews are emigrating to Israel, so we'll see if that number changes anytime soon.Just as I have said. A Jewish(stolen, mind you)land for the Jewish.



At that time, there was the two state solution, which worked for a little while.
And yes, later, Israel would conquer more land from the Arabs.
But why is it wrong for a country to conquer land that people live in? It only seems to be a problem when Israel does this, yet it had been done countless times in history.

There is a difference between HISTORY and MODERN TIMES. In ancient time, people were greedy savages, and would do anything to conquer and expand. But that happened in the Modern Times(yeah, Nazis did a mistake, but must they follow them)?

And I'm not saying that Israel wasn't to greedy, because I can see that they did in fact take more land then they should have. And still.


On the other hand, you are talking about a country so small taking land so that the new country could actually be able to prosper. Of course it was wrong for them to take Gaza in the first place, Golan, (which they still have), and Sinai, since they really never had occupation there anyway.Baharain is so damn small, but it is prospering despite of that fact.


But how come when Arabs fire into Israel, it's for their protection, but when Israel fires into Arab territory (which they haven't done, unprovoked, in a while), they are trying to capture more land?Isn't it obvious?

Even as pro-IsraelSo, you support the shelling of children with white phosphorus? Shame.

Right, the Arabs get to add a New-Jersey sized area that has been historical to the Jews, and other religions for thousands of years so that the "original inhabitants" can go back. I don't know, it just doesn't seem fair that the Arabs would then get everything they wanted, and the Jews, nothing.Arab wants the freedom of Palestine, no more or less. And if not that, the Palestinian or Arab Jews should have equal rights, as well.

And I like the way you refer the Arabs as a collective. As if they all are of the same ethnicity and have same the same ideals.

But the Jews should just suffer for eternity in the rest of the world. That's fair too.Nobody wants the Jews suffer. It's just, we hate the people who are the active cause of suffering of the Palestinians--hint: Zionists.

[Genghis Khan]

Syria's killing thousands of its own people every day.

That's not a new news, is it? And you think people are liking it? Strange way you draw comparisons.

This point really confused me too. People on a global scale recognise this issue, Russia and China are pressurised every day for supporting Bashaar's regime and he's being questioned for crimes against humanity.

What a strange thing to compare Israel to, when even that woman in Noam's interview said 'What about the war in Afghanistan? Why isn't that being criticised?' Well, if she ever decides to read it's being criticised every day, 70% of Americans want their troops out of Afghanistan and want this war on terror to end.

Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan; the evils in this country are being recognised despite the fact that what's happening there isn't as a result of intervention but rather a backward culture. Where the hell does any Zionist get off from saying Muslim countries can do whatever they want whereas Israel can't? Incredible.

[level_up]

I'm one of those people tbh because Israel took land from the Palestinians after WWII when Britain and France were getting rid of their mandates; Truman and the British PM sympathized with the Jews and the UN gave them their own land even though almost all the Jews there were immigrants from somewhere else. So it's pretty much like us giving Texas, AZ, Nevada etc. to Mexico simply because lots of them have immigrated there.

So all that said, Israel does exist now so it's not like I'm for wiping it right off the map. But they need to stop being so stubborn and seriously come up with an idea so that the Palestinians can either have their own state or live in Israel without bein discriminated against.

[level_up]

Israel is a tough country to explain. It's really wedged into a terrible spot, and its existence isn't necessary at all – the Zionist movement has created one of the ugliest clusterfucks in human history. There isn't a better example of political instability than the Middle East, precisely because of colonialism and the belief that the Jews need a homeland. Uprooting thousands of years of established Palestinian settlement in the region to create a nation was never going to work.

So yes, in effect I am saying that Israel doesn't really belong where it is now. The Jewish population would benefit more if it assimilated into countries that welcome it – there's a reason why the United States has the highest population of Jews.

Israel was given set boundaries when it was established in the aftermath of World War II and the British withdrawal from Palestine. While it's absolutely true that the Arab nations around it have tried, on multiple occasions, to invade Israel, that's not to say that the Israelis haven't done the same thing in return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War). Israel continues to unfairly occupy some of the territory it captured in that war to this day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories).

It's not fair to look at one side of this conflict as "evil" (the Arabs) and the other as "good" (the Israelis). Both sides are at fault, and both sides have equally weak justification for their actions. However, ultimately, the situation boils down to the uprooting of the Palestinian Arabs in order to establish a nation whose entire existence is based on some sort of religious commandment. As a result, there probably never will be peace in the region. Is that worth it?

yeah I agree with this 100%. It's a big zionist clusterfuck, and the US gets dragged into it too because the Jews have a lot of support here. So now when Egyptians or Iranians get p/o'd at something Israel does, we get part of the blame too and everyone sees us as like an evil puppet master because we aid Israel so much. I don't like the fact that our govt. supports them so much, we need to stop giving them aid until they freeze that settlement building and get back to negotiations:mad: