Is it child abuse to teach young children about religion?

[Dragon_Droppings]

I personally believe that it is a form of child abuse to teach adolescents about religion, because what you learn when you are a child sticks with you throughout your lifetime, for the most part. I think that all religion theist and atheist should be introduced in all households, and then the children will have a choice based on what they feel is right, and they way that the Children want to live their lives, not the way the parents want the children to live their lives.

[Mortal Coil]

I think it is child abuse to FORCE children to follow a certain religion, but simply introducing it as a belief system is perfectly fine. It's similar to telling children fairy tales when you simply educate them about it.

Are fairy tales child abuse too?

[Dragon_Droppings]

I think it is child abuse to FORCE children to follow a certain religion, but simply introducing it as a belief system is perfectly fine. It's similar to telling children fairy tales when you simply educate them about it.

Are fairy tales child abuse too?

As I said, all religions should be introduced, but forcing your child to go to a religious private school where they are surrounded by one particular religion is basically forcing them to follow a certain religion, because it is all they know of.

[kenoloor]

all religions should be introduced

do I even need to point out the flaw in this idea?

[Thunduhbuhlt]

Well child abuse is not a good word for it. I don't know what to call it.

I think that you should introduce your children to your religion, but not push away from other religions. They should let the child learn and develop their own beliefs. No two people will have the same beliefs and nobody should be forced into one religion. In many cases, people who are pushed into it, will grow up hating it.

[Genghis Khan]

do I even need to point out the flaw in this idea?

I was just going to say this. OP, do you have any idea how difficult it is for parents to even teach kids their own religion these days? Let alone a hundred other dogmas that they aren't remotely familiar with?

--

I guess if I ever married a religious woman I'd let her introduce them to religion but not at a young age, maybe at a later stage in life when the child is old enough to make personal choices.

[Efflorescence]

As I said, all religions should be introduced.

The chances that you will be exposed to every religion in this world are very very small. Besides, I think that they will be too much to handle. If you introduce all religions at a very young age, it will get the child all mixed up. It doesn't make much sense to start complicating life for the child at such a young age. When he grows up, he can explore other religions himself if he wants to.

As for me, I will expose my child to Catholicism at a young age. I believe it's what's best for him. Then when he has the maturity to make his own decisions, he can explore different religions and change if he's not satisfied.

[Jess]

I don't really see how it's child abuse. But I do agree it's better to not teach young children about religion until they are old enough to make choices about what they should believe.

forcing a religion is, but not teaching a religion.

[StoppingTime]

I don't think it is abuse unless it's physically forced upon them, whether that means that means them going to a religious school they don't like, observing holidays, etc...

[Jean Poutine]

As I said, all religions should be introduced, but forcing your child to go to a religious private school where they are surrounded by one particular religion is basically forcing them to follow a certain religion, because it is all they know of.

I'm intimately connected to this issue (I'm not saying any more) and I've gained a lot of insight from it.

I used to be all for rights and freedoms including freedom of religion but some time ago, something happened that made me change my mind entirely. I'd go as far as saying freedom of religion is complete bullshit and needs to be curtailed a lot more than it is if not outright erased.

Parents have near-absolute control over their children from birth to majority. It is not healthy for the children to have their brains manipulated in such a way that they will unquestioningly adopt a certain set of beliefs (this goes for atheism too, BTW). It is not so bad, even acceptable to a point when the parents are moderate about religion.

However, when worship turns into extremism, when individual thought is stifled, when ideas that clash with other rights and freedoms such as equality rights (ie. women's rights, or religious/ethnic discrimination) are enforced and presented as the "right path" aided by the manipulation of a child into thinking that all other conceptions of life are wrong, unholy and should be rejected without further thought is when religion does become a form of abuse.

Getting forced from a young age into a set of beliefs that is obviously out of touch with the common values Western society holds for its own (sans freedom of religion) is indeed a form of abuse. We've all heard about how hard it is to get out of sects. The hardship coming with denying a lifetime's worth of strong molding is cruel, unnecessary and downright outrageous. I think freedom of religion ought to be restricted a lot more than it is at the moment.

[Cicero]

It's not child abuse, it's raising your kids with morals and values that a certain religion teaches. Saying its child abuse is very strong, I would say its unfair forcing them. But it's like saying its child abuse not to get kids what they want. I think when the child turns 13 the parent should ease off and let them choose their way of life, before the age of 13 they need guidance. But here's the thing, your saying CHILDREN, and CHILDREN must have guidance and discipline. While your at it, how about we call grounding children to their room is child abuse. Without discipline their gonna grow up to have no regard to society.

But believe it or not, most of the world is raised with religion being forced on them, in fact for most people they either chose their families religion, or their not apart of their family. So it's pretty stupid saying religion is a form of child abuse...

When I was young, I was told that God loved me daily. The abuse got so bad, that I was told that God loved me twice daily. Once word got out of this brutal abuse, CPS was informed by a confidential informant. Needless to say, I was immediately removed from the home.

I don't know where I'd be today without CPS.

Haha that was hilarious :D

Please don't double post; instead edit your first post. I've merged both of your posts together. -Jon/Donkey

[Sugaree]

If they ask about it and have an earnest will in wanting to learn about any religion, I see no problem with it. However, teaching it to them throughout their life is being incredibly forceful. It's not, in my opinion, child abuse. Unless it is anguishing them mentally or physically, which I'm sure religion has done to children in some cases, then there's no abuse taking place. I'm simply going to keep my children open to any religion they wish, but I won't be teaching them about every religion in the world.

[Short Circuit]

Not abuse, but brain washing

[FojeJC]

Stupid question.
I was raised in Christian schools and that didn't affect me at all, I don't believe in god.

[Professional Russian]

I personally Don't think its child abuse, but i truly don't believe there are magical powers from above that are to save me or change my way of life. So coming from that perspective its not Abuse or brain washing but you should let the kids learn what religion they want to follow if they even want to follow. I remember when i was a little kid and my dragged me to church every Sunday and i didn't want to go 1(Because it was boring and 2(because i didn't believe a word they. I'm not going to get into why i didn't believe a word they said because this isn't the thread but I hope this help a little bit.

[Genghis Khan]

Oh wow. Is it child abuse to read your child a fairy tale? Seriously now I can't even pat my son without being accused of molesting his tiny asshole.

[Kacey]

I personally believe that it is a form of child abuse to teach adolescents about religion, because what you learn when you are a child sticks with you throughout your lifetime, for the most part. I think that all religion theist and atheist should be introduced in all households, and then the children will have a choice based on what they feel is right, and they way that the Children want to live their lives, not the way the parents want the children to live their lives.


Is it child abuse to send kids to school even if they r forced to?
Parents see religon like school a method of educating their for their better

[Iris]

For most children it's not abuse. And most of you can't comprehend how teaching a religion to your child can ever be abuse, which is understandable, as you have never experienced life inside extremist religious sects. There is no way to comprehend the extent of brainwashing religious extremists force their children to undergo unless you've seen it firsthand, and I have. I live in an Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, one of the most sexist, racist, bigoted place you will never get to know, where Non-Jews are secretly considered "lower" beings than Jews, where women are forced into archaic roles whether they like it or not and are constantly taught degrading things about men ruling and women remaining submissive, where the vast majority of houses don't have TVs or internet in an attempt to shun the outside world and its influences. Kids here never go to public school; from kindergarten they're isolated from the rest of the world, and taught that this is being done because they're better. They go through life following the most rigid Jewish laws, and countless (and pointless) rituals to make God happy so they don't suffer his vengeance. They are taught year after year that all the bad in the world is their faults, because they aren't praying hard enough or not following one of the thousands of rules properly. They're taught that they're worth nothing compared to God (though that worth is still greater than the worth of Non-Jews), and are told to look up to biblical figures for degrading reasons (for example, Sarah: when the Angels asked Abraham where is wife was, he answered הנה באהל, which means she's in the tent. In schools kids are taught that what we learn from this is that a women's place is at home, hidden and modest). They're taught to fear god, and also told to love him, which creates the perfect mental and emotional prison.

Truthfully? Most of these kids are fine. They are taught utter bullshit, and are molded to have an attitude towards the world that is negative and destructive, but while this brainwashing is wrong, I don't call it abuse. The abuse happens when an individual dares to break away from this little circle. Then everything goes downhill. I'm one of the unlucky ones who has to experience life in this kind of community, while actively breaking away from them, and child abuse is too soft a term for the crap I've been through.

When religion encompasses literally every single aspect of your life, and all the people around you believe this path is the only right path, it's impossible to escape without scars. For one, no one accepts you, they never will. Until the day I die every Jewish person I know will consider me a Jew. It doesn't seem so bad, but it's incredibly frustrating to be treated in this condescending way, knowing that they will never see you as anything other than a Jew who's "off the derech (path)." They fight every choice I make with a vengeance when it conflicts with their beliefs. I have never dared to wear jeans, or a tank top outside of my room. I have never eaten dairy within 6 hours of eating meat while my parents are around. I've had to pray twice a day (and by pray I mean 30 minutes of hebrew shit proclaiming God is my lord a few hundred times and begging him to forgive me for my sins) to convince my friends that I believe in Judaism, because if they knew the truth I'd immediately be shunned, and, when the word got out, kicked out of school. As it is I'm ostracized by all my neighbors for not following the laws of tznius (modesty), by not wearing a long enough skirt, not wearing shirts that cover my collarbone etc. The list goes on. The impact all this has on one's mental state is unbelievably destructive. Think about being in the closet x100. Everything I do is a lie. I lie and lie and lie until I don't have an identity. My whole world is in conflict, because I've been taught certain things that i believed with absolute certainty, that were the very foundations of the world, and I've just ripped them down. I have nothing, as religion was once everything. I cannot express myself at all, I cannot show my dissent without getting dirty looks, being avoided, judged always, constantly. I've developed a fear of walking around my neighborhood as a result of people passing by me and turning around to look at me 3-4 times, the last time always being scathing as they realize what I am. I have a ridiculous amount of issues, and I've attempted suicide three times, mainly because the fear that I'd never escape this place overwhelmed me. My parents realize I'm upset, so they send me to shrinks and let me get pills, but they still force me to participate in ridiculous rituals and religious ceremonies, still make me listen to little lectures (called divrei torah) about the torah, about god's righteousness and on and on. They can only help me insofar as they don't compromise on any of their religious values, which is incredibly ironic as it's those values and teachings that got me into this terrible mental state in the first place.

My point is, there is much more to teaching religion than you realize. You don't hear about people like me, since most of us are drug addicts or dead. There are many communities that enforce their teachings and refuse to allow escapees like me by building this system of judging and shunning. They implant religion into your mind in a way that causes serious damage to your psyche if you dare to deny it. In this case, it is very very much abuse.

[Professional Russian]

I personally believe that it is a form of child abuse to teach adolescents about religion, because what you learn when you are a child sticks with you throughout your lifetime, for the most part. I think that all religion theist and atheist should be introduced in all households, and then the children will have a choice based on what they feel is right, and they way that the Children want to live their lives, not the way the parents want the children to live their lives.

Has anyone else seen the flaw in this?

[Truth]

Abuse? I would not say that...

Is it fair to put these ridiculous ideals, ideologies, and values into a small child's brain? Doubt it.

[Weber_Swagg]

Not really wrong to teach children but I do agree people tell there children things and it sticks. The thing is that parents should tell there children things unless it's harmful. But look at it this way if you believed there was a way for your child to be in a place like heaven and if you don't teach them them they burn forever, wouldn't you want to teach them?

[Truth]

Not really wrong to teach children but I do agree people tell there children things and it sticks. The thing is that parents should tell there children things unless it's harmful. But look at it this way if you believed there was a way for your child to be in a place like heaven and if you don't teach them them they burn forever, wouldn't you want to teach them? To believe in such a thing makes you stupid, and forcing your stupidity onto your children so that they have no choice but to believe it's true, is just unfair. (I mean, what 3 year old wants to disappoint their parents?)

[Destructive Impulse]

Happy Easter to y'all too...

Look Im a strong Christian and I'm really offended u think being taught religions abuse. Maybe I should explain why I'm offended. I've recently discovered that my parents have abused me. Things I thought were normal turned out to be text book child abuse. Im talking punching and shit thrown at my head. Like I occassionally would wake up with bruises. I thought that was normal until a few months ago when I discovered over the Internet it's not. I'm still weary of phycological and emotional abuse though but appeantly I've suffered that. I kind of doubt it but whatever. Anyway my parents aren't religious at all and I've become faithful due to the fact I like knowing there's someone watching over me cause right now my life is shit. So I'm not offended that u have differing views on religion because the bible says to respect others beliefs. However it bugs me that u compare religion to abuse when it's not the same at all.

[Smeagol]

Well... there are a couple things to this. Please, nobody take offense at my comment. Right off, I'd like to say that even though I identify as pagan and I 'worship' nature, I do not believe that there is a god or goddess with supreme power.

Religion, over the years, not only being 'spiritually beneficial' to the people who practiced it, also kept people in line and made them question their moral values. Even if they didn't get caught, the god or gods would be angry. So, people were more likely to think twice about wrongs that they were going to commit before they committed them. Also, for people who believe in karma, they would get bad karma if they committed a crime or were wrongful. Also, if they did something bad, they would try to get good karma back again by doing good deeds. Therefore, children who honestly believed in whatever religion that they were raised to could possibly be more likely to be moral people. If they took their religion rather seriously.(this whole paragraph brings up the what is good and what is bad question which I guess really isn't relevant)

But, on the other hand, there are a lot of things that are bad about bringing up children from a very early age into their religion. What about some Islamic girls? No, Islam is not bad. But, some young females in the Islamic culture don't go to school because of their religion. They also have less freedoms from a young age. (I personally think that this is very bad, but I have never talked to somebody under these conditions so I don't have any firsthand information) Also, I have a young girl in my class whose parents told my teacher that she was not allowed to take our middle school biology or anything about evolution and reproduction because it was immoral. How about that? I think that evolution is very, very important. Science changes it's views based on what is observed. Faith, sometimes but not always, does not alter it's views in order to preserve itself. Therefore, not allowing your child to expand and grow could be classified as a form of abuse.

[Truth]

Happy Easter to y'all too...

Look Im a strong Christian and I'm really offended u think being taught religions abuse. Maybe I should explain why I'm offended. I've recently discovered that my parents have abused me. Things I thought were normal turned out to be text book child abuse. Im talking punching and shit thrown at my head. Like I occassionally would wake up with bruises. I thought that was normal until a few months ago when I discovered over the Internet it's not. I'm still weary of phycological and emotional abuse though but appeantly I've suffered that. I kind of doubt it but whatever. Anyway my parents aren't religious at all and I've become faithful due to the fact I like knowing there's someone watching over me cause right now my life is shit. So I'm not offended that u have differing views on religion because the bible says to respect others beliefs. However it bugs me that u compare religion to abuse when it's not the same at all. For a child that is taught by his parents about Christianity at a young age, there is absolutely no option to "not follow it if you don't want to", you are simply to young to understand or even make that choice, you only follow the teachings because you don't want your parents to be upset with you... That means, as a direct result of introducing your child to religion, they are more likely to devote their entire life to the religion, which causes the child to become closed-minded and waste many hours of their life participating in religious activities.

To me, this is very unfair. I was taught to be Christian as a child, and I was quite pissed off as I grew up and actually read the bible, rather than listen to what Mr. Preacher says. To be introduced to a book at a young age, a book that promotes slavery, human sacrifice, unfair judgement, and rape, is not okay.

Although in today's society, the average christian has no idea what the bible actually values. They simply follow blindly because "god loves everyone".

[Destructive Impulse]

But that's not abuse. That's what I'm getting at.

[Dragon_Droppings]

For a child that is taught by his parents about Christianity at a young age, there is absolutely no option to "not follow it if you don't want to", you are simply to young to understand or even make that choice, you only follow the teachings because you don't want your parents to be upset with you... That means, as a direct result of introducing your child to religion, they are more likely to devote their entire life to the religion, which causes the child to become closed-minded and waste many hours of their life participating in religious activities.

To me, this is very unfair. I was taught to be Christian as a child, and I was quite pissed off as I grew up and actually read the bible, rather than listen to what Mr. Preacher says. To be introduced to a book at a young age, a book that promotes slavery, human sacrifice, unfair judgement, and rape, is not okay.

Although in today's society, the average christian has no idea what the bible actually values. They simply follow blindly because "god loves everyone".

This is exactly the point I was trying to make all along.

[Destructive Impulse]

Ok but that doesn't equal child abuse at all

[beplubber24]

Forget this post

[Jess]

Happy Easter to y'all too...

Look Im a strong Christian and I'm really offended u think being taught religions abuse. Maybe I should explain why I'm offended. I've recently discovered that my parents have abused me. Things I thought were normal turned out to be text book child abuse. Im talking punching and shit thrown at my head. Like I occassionally would wake up with bruises. I thought that was normal until a few months ago when I discovered over the Internet it's not. I'm still weary of phycological and emotional abuse though but appeantly I've suffered that. I kind of doubt it but whatever. Anyway my parents aren't religious at all and I've become faithful due to the fact I like knowing there's someone watching over me cause right now my life is shit. So I'm not offended that u have differing views on religion because the bible says to respect others beliefs. However it bugs me that u compare religion to abuse when it's not the same at all.

um...where in the Bible does it say to respect other people's beilefs? I was under the impression that the Bible tells people to kill people of other religions/beliefs.

just want to know (:

[Sugaree]

um...where in the Bible does it say to respect other people's beilefs? I was under the impression that the Bible tells people to kill people of other religions/beliefs.

just want to know (:

hurr look at me say that the Bible tells a few people to kill believers of other religions, so that must mean the entire book is about killing for God durr

[ATP787]

I personally believe that it is a form of child abuse to teach adolescents about religion, because what you learn when you are a child sticks with you throughout your lifetime, for the most part. I think that all religion theist and atheist should be introduced in all households, and then the children will have a choice based on what they feel is right, and they way that the Children want to live their lives, not the way the parents want the children to live their lives.From an anthropological standpoint, everything we believe/think/do has been influenced by our culture. Whether it be religion, politics, morality, ethics, behavior, etc.

If it's child abuse to teach children about religion, where do we draw the line? Should we teach children any of our own ideologies, knowing we're essentially influencing them to swallow our set of beliefs?

[beplubber24]

I was in Catholic school for 3 years, and I know this stuff pretty well, and the bible says to respect other religions. It also says to love all people. Doesn't say you have to like them, but just to give them the basic human respect. So that in itself says that other religions are to be respected, as long as it includes God , and only one God. I.e. Judaism and "Muslims." They might have different beliefs, but it doesn't mean you spit on them. I will never let my kids worship more than Jesus/God. If they do, it's going to be God any other. No, not happening. I feel really bad for your children, because they will probably live in an unstable family. I pity you, because you don't know what's good for you.

[Sugaree]

I was in Catholic school for 3 years, and I know this stuff pretty well, and the bible says to respect other religions. It also says to love all people. Doesn't say you have to like them, but just to give them the basic human respect. So that in itself says that other religions are to be respected, as long as it includes God , and only one God. I.e. Judaism and "Muslims." They might have different beliefs, but it doesn't mean you spit on them. I will never let my kids worship more than Jesus/God. If they do, it's going to be God any other. No, not happening. I feel really bad for your children, because they will probably live in an unstable family. I pity you, because you don't know what's good for you.

So are you saying families of religions like Wicca are unstable? What about atheists? Are they unstable too?

[Jess]

I was in Catholic school for 3 years, and I know this stuff pretty well, and the bible says to respect other religions. It also says to love all people. Doesn't say you have to like them, but just to give them the basic human respect. So that in itself says that other religions are to be respected, as long as it includes God , and only one God. I.e. Judaism and "Muslims." They might have different beliefs, but it doesn't mean you spit on them. I will never let my kids worship more than Jesus/God. If they do, it's going to be God any other. No, not happening. I feel really bad for your children, because they will probably live in an unstable family. I pity you, because you don't know what's good for you.

who says people that worship other religions will have unstable families?

[joeboxerpeni1s]

while we are at it why don't we stop teaching them to eat and speak

[beplubber24]

You guys seriously don't get my view, I'm out. And blowing it way out of proportion.

[Sugaree]

You guys seriously don't get my view, I'm out. And blowing it way out of proportion.

I'm not blowing anything out of proportion here. I was simply asking a question for you to explain something I didn't understand in your post, so don't get all flustered when someone asks you to explain your opinion.

[beplubber24]

I'm saying that these people who do this normally are unaccepting of change, and don't normally have good values. Sometimes these people know no God because they were abused as kids. I just think that not teaching kids at a young age or this world will collapse. And if the dumbasses who think this make this law of USA, I'm moving to France. Just saying, if these people are in charge, I'm out of this country.

[kenoloor]

I'm saying that these people who do this normally are unaccepting of change,

Actually, if there's anything that history (and current events) have shown us, it's that the religious masses are those that are most opposed to change. Over 80% of White Evangelicals believe interracial marriage is a bad thing for society -- opposition to change.

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/upload/2011/06/0624revisedchart-thumb.JPG

The religious (specifically Roman Catholics) recently opposed healthcare changes in the US -- another lack of acceptance regarding change. (just one example (http://www.nbc26.com/news/local/138295599.html))

Also, Puritans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan)

I think you get my point.

and don't normally have good values.

This argument is almost as stale as my shit that's been in the refrigerator for three weeks. Read. (http://mwillett.org/atheism/relmor.htm)

[Truth]

But that's not abuse. That's what I'm getting at. That is abuse, and it's quite unfair. It's like teaching your children that enslaving the neighbour girl is alright as long as you let her go in 6 years. (Quote from the bible. You can also sell her back to her parents if she doesn't please you well enough!)

um...where in the Bible does it say to respect other people's beilefs? I was under the impression that the Bible tells people to kill people of other religions/beliefs.

just want to know (: It has contradictory statements, it both condemns and gives acceptance to other religions. Seems like whoever wrote it was no good with continuity.

I'm saying that these people who do this normally are unaccepting of change, and don't normally have good values. Sometimes these people know no God because they were abused as kids. I just think that not teaching kids at a young age or this world will collapse. And if the dumbasses who think this make this law of USA, I'm moving to France. Just saying, if these people are in charge, I'm out of this country. Wrong, Christians kept the un-civilized lifestyle of the Dark Ages for hundreds of years, thinking that science was horrible, anything mechanical was magic and you should burn the person using it, and that the entire world should listen to the church and give them over 60% of the money you make for your farm labour.

Not only is Christianity one of the most barbaric religions that have a god, it values plundering your neighbouring city, killing all of their men, children, and women, EXCEPT for the virgins which god allows the conquerors to keep to marry and violate.

[beplubber24]

You mother fuckers just crossed the line. Saying that God is nothing but as realistic as the bogeyman. You atheists need to grow up and smell the roses, God creates miracles every day, small favors. He can strike you down any second, but He is not evil, He is goodness. You choose not to believe in Him, you go to Hell. You do believe and worship, even if you've done bad things and repent, you still go to Heaven.

[Dragon_Droppings]

You mother fuckers just crossed the line. Saying that God is nothing but as realistic as the bogeyman. You atheists need to grow up and smell the roses, God creates miracles every day, small favors. He can strike you down any second, but He is not evil, He is goodness. You choose not to believe in Him, you go to Hell. You do believe and worship, even if you've done bad things and repent, you still go to Heaven.

So basically what you're trying to say is that all the rapist preists out there will go to heaven, but the atheists will rot in hell? That alone is absurd, and irrational, I understand your irrationality to a certain extent, but then you cross a line. And the point of this thread isn't whether we believe in god or not, it's whether we believe that forcing a religion upon a child is considered a form of child abuse,

[beplubber24]

Ok, maybe some priests are rapists, and they go to hell, but doesn't mean every priest is a rapist. Another thing, Sapphire_Flames posed that article about healthcare. In that bill, it says to provide women with a contraceptive plan. Which means abortion, and who's to say that isn't child abuse. I don't care, once a women conceives, the fetus is a child, and is living. They take breaths in there, so isn't that child abuse. I'm confused now, you say it's a abortions good if you support that bill, which means you like to kill children, how different is that.

[beplubber24]

[QUOTE=Truth;1682359]That is abuse, and it's quite unfair. It's like teaching your children that enslaving the neighbour girl is alright as long as you let her go in 6 years. (Quote from the bible. You can also sell her back to her parents if she doesn't please you well enough!)

That doesn't even make sense.

[DarkHorses]

What? Honestly? I don't see how this is a debate. I fully agree with teaching children about religion, as long as they know that in the end the choice to believe or not is their own. If I ever have kids, I would plan on raising them as Christians, but to know that it should be their choice, and that they are never pressured into believing something that they don't want to.

That said, I'm completely confused as to how it could be considered child abuse to raise your kids to believe in something. What's wrong with teaching your kids that there is something else out there, that there is a reason for their existence and that they aren't just going to rot in the ground when they die? If it's child abuse to teach them Christianity or any other religion, then it must be child abuse to raise your kids as atheists as well. After all, they're likely to believe whatever you teach them to believe, so isn't THAT brainwashing? Seems hypocritical to me.

I'm not trying to be stereotypical or ignorant in saying this, but to me it seems like a lot of atheists spend their times hating on religion. Yeah, it's your right to hate religion. But if you hate religion so much, why are you so focused on it? It just goes to show that there is religion in everyone's life, because Christians focus on sharing it with others and spreading the word, and a lot of atheists focus on spreading all the bad things about it. It seems to me like if you really hated religion, you wouldn't be so preoccupied with it.

[beplubber24]

Thank you, someone reasonable is talking some sense.

[kenoloor]

Thank you, someone reasonable is talking some sense.

So people are only reasonable when they agree with you? That's unreasonable in and of itself.

[beplubber24]

Yea, well at least he/she makes sense, you don't.

[kenoloor]

Yea, well at least he/she makes sense, you don't.

lol.

[DarkHorses]

Can I just say that I didn't post what I posted to give the impression that I was right. There's no right answer here, there's only opinion. Not everyone's opinion is going to be the same, but that doesn't mean that not everyone's opinion should be respected. It may make sense to you, but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to agree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and you cannot challenge that.

[Destructive Impulse]

That is abuse, and it's quite unfair. It's like teaching your children that enslaving the neighbour girl is alright as long as you let her go in 6 years. (Quote from the bible. You can also sell her back to her parents if she doesn't please you well enough!)

Obviously not everything in the bible is moral nowadays but back then some 2000 years ago that stuff was normal and culturally accepted. I understand what your saying but the fact of the matter is that teaching religion (not just Christianity but other religions as well) isn't illegal or frowned upon at all. Simply being taught something you don't believe isn't abuse other why's our school systems would be abusing it. The extreamity is when religion is forced down someones throat. As a kid religion is good as it teaches morals and virtues but over time when you become a teenager I think if someone wants to become an atheist they should.

On a side note I think this threads become too personal. Maybe just tone it down and try not to belittle others beliefs. It's not a topic on whether god exists but if teaching religion is ok.

[Sugaree]

Boy oh boy, lots of rustled jimmies in this thread.

I'm saying that these people who do this normally are unaccepting of change, and don't normally have good values. Sometimes these people know no God because they were abused as kids. I just think that not teaching kids at a young age or this world will collapse. And if the dumbasses who think this make this law of USA, I'm moving to France. Just saying, if these people are in charge, I'm out of this country.

Christianity hasn't changed significantly since its concept over two thousand years ago. The changes most recently asked of the Church, which are minor, are not that much to ask. However, the more militant members are crying discrimination at them. Not all people who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god for that matter, were abused as kids. This is an absurd comment, where did you ever hear such a thing? I'm speaking as a former Christian who turned agnostic and my parents have only physically harmed me by isolated incident.

The way change is perceived by religion differs from each belief. The Dalai Lama once said, "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change." Could the Church not do the same? The Church is infamous for its condemnation of science since the Middle Ages, is it not time to open the door? Change is not always a bad thing.

You mother fuckers just crossed the line. Saying that God is nothing but as realistic as the bogeyman. You atheists need to grow up and smell the roses, God creates miracles every day, small favors. He can strike you down any second, but He is not evil, He is goodness. You choose not to believe in Him, you go to Hell. You do believe and worship, even if you've done bad things and repent, you still go to Heaven.

This seems like a pretty non-Christian like post. Didn't Christ once say that we are to respect others as human beings despite their beliefs? Telling us to "grow up and smell the roses" and calling us "mother fuckers" isn't exactly helping the cause of your religion. God may be good, but you God has also done many evil things. Sodom and Gomorrah, the complete destruction of the earth from a flood, and the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem just to name three that come to my mind. Sure, there's good things that God has allegedly done, but you can't just take those and ignore the bad.

Thank you, someone reasonable is talking some sense.

They're only "reasonable" because you agree with the opinion.

Yea, well at least he/she makes sense, you don't.

Bradi actually pointed out, through multiple sources, that your points were wrong. I don't see how this doesn't make sense, seeing as you are making claims without even citing anything to back them.

[SugarPlumFairy]

I wouldn't consider teaching about religion to be a form of child abuse, but forcing a religion upon someone would be considered wrong, in my book of life.

[Truth]

[QUOTE=Truth;1682359]That is abuse, and it's quite unfair. It's like teaching your children that enslaving the neighbour girl is alright as long as you let her go in 6 years. (Quote from the bible. You can also sell her back to her parents if she doesn't please you well enough!)

That doesn't even make sense. Ah I forgot, you're one of those people who don't even read the bible.

"f you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)"

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. (So Racism + Slavery) And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)"

[Cutie]

It's not child abuse at all! It's teaching children right from wrong and keeping children from hell isn't child abuse. Not teaching children about Christ is child abuse!

[Jess]

It's not child abuse at all! It's teaching children right from wrong and keeping children from hell isn't child abuse. Not teaching children about Christ is child abuse!

Not teaching children about Christ is NOT child abuse.

[kenoloor]

It's teaching children right from wrong

One can do that just as well without any religion.

[Aves]

ITT: I'm athiest, everyone else should be.

[Thunduhbuhlt]

ITT: I'm athiest, everyone else should be.

Ha, right. As if everyone (including me) would give up their religion for atheism.

[Truth]

Not really ... They just teach their kid their own Religion , Abuse would be if the Child was not child anymore and was a teen 18+ and the parents were forcing them this religion.. So at the age of 2, you have the mental capabilities to decide whether or not you should follow the beliefs of your parents? You can really choose if it's logical, makes sense, and is just? No! A young child does not have the ability to do those things! They are forced to learn this religion to please their parents, and they won't question it because they want acceptance.

You ever wonder why cults are usually made up of families? They teach their babies that sacrificing goats is okay from age 1. :mad:

ITT: I'm athiest, everyone else should be. Religion is like a penis, everybody has one, and it's cool to be proud of it, but for fuck sakes don't go waving it around in public. (This goes for Atheism too, even though it's the only belief to yet cause death on another cultural group).

[beplubber24]

You guys are pessimists, picking apart every little thing we say. Just accept us and don't bother with us. And that "religion is like a penis" comment just goes way beyond wrong and disturbing, and quite frankly a very rude comment.

[Sugaree]

You guys are pessimists, picking apart every little thing we say. Just accept us and don't bother with us. And that "religion is like a penis" comment just goes way beyond wrong and disturbing, and quite frankly a very rude comment.

It does draw some fair comparisons though. Rude and funny though it may be, for some, it's almost a description of how they handle their religion. Also, this is what a debate is supposed to be. You have to pick apart things and get to the gritty details. If you don't like it, you don't have to debate. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm giving you as much respect as anybody else in this thread, but if you don't want people to pull apart all the things you say, you can just not debate.

[Truth]

You guys are pessimists, picking apart every little thing we say. Just accept us and don't bother with us. And that "religion is like a penis" comment just goes way beyond wrong and disturbing, and quite frankly a very rude comment. When debating, that is the point. You are supposed to discuss an issue together from 2 different sides, including all of the reasons, data, and arguments as to why you have a certain opinion.


Rude? No my friend, it's simply true. :yawn:

[kenoloor]

You guys are pessimists, picking apart every little thing we say. Just accept us and don't bother with us. And that "religion is like a penis" comment just goes way beyond wrong and disturbing, and quite frankly a very rude comment.

This- ladies, gentlemen, or otherwise- is the kind of attitude that is responsible for the lack of quality debates in this debate board.

My dear chap, if you're going to post in a debate board, don't get butthurt when people debate with you. Honestly, it's like you people have never had an intelligent discussion before; what, afraid to think?

[beplubber24]

You guys are honestly hopeless. What do you want me to say, our kids don't have the right to religion and people who teach children religions and morals go to jail for twenty some odd years just because of what we believe in. You are the people who are going to start another holocaust. Another scar on humanity. That's where we're heading. You want another full-scale global holocaust, I don't. That would include atheism. Foreign countries forced to take sides. Boom, WWIII, we're all dead. Do you want to be the cause off humanity's death. I sure don't. Think about the future. There you want a debate, you got it. Try me.

[Jess]

um what? how are we going to start another holocaust?

[StoppingTime]

You guys are honestly hopeless. What do you want me to say, our kids don't have the right to religion and people who teach children religions and morals go to jail for twenty some odd years just because of what we believe in. You are the people who are going to start another holocaust. Another scar on humanity. That's where we're heading. You want another full-scale global holocaust, I don't. That would include atheism. Foreign countries forced to take sides. Boom, WWIII, we're all dead. Do you want to be the cause off humanity's death. I sure don't. Think about the future. There you want a debate, you got it. Try me.

The Holocaust was a killing of innocent people for absolutely no reason. Hitler didn't care what Jews believed in, he just wanted them gone. Same with gays, Gypsies, etc...

They have a right to learn about it, but not be forced into it.
Nobody said it's a crime to teach religion, some just say there's no point to it.

[Sugaree]

You guys are honestly hopeless. What do you want me to say, our kids don't have the right to religion and people who teach children religions and morals go to jail for twenty some odd years just because of what we believe in. You are the people who are going to start another holocaust. Another scar on humanity. That's where we're heading. You want another full-scale global holocaust, I don't. That would include atheism. Foreign countries forced to take sides. Boom, WWIII, we're all dead. Do you want to be the cause off humanity's death. I sure don't. Think about the future. There you want a debate, you got it. Try me.

Wow, and you say we blow things out of proportion. None of us are calling for a holocaust of religious people. Unjustified killing is far from the points we're trying to make. You're making it sound like we're the most evil people in the world and you're part of some higher group. Everybody has a right to the religion they wish to believe or not believe in. When that religion is forcefully put into a child's mind, which is the most basic form of mind control, does that classify as abuse?

[beplubber24]

Well, I'm pretty sure that's the way you're putting it, that it's a crime to teach this to children. It sounds like you want it as the law. That will be the trigger for WWIII. Let me tell you, land of the free. Stop trying to make a difference with this, you'll never win this argument. I can get some very religious people to tell you you're wrong. There is a point in teaching this to children. They learn morals and what's right from wrong. If we don't teach this to our kids, more than now will become criminals… This idea of atheism in kids, no one will accept religion, there you go. Everyone goes to hell. What do you think happens when we die, we just go into an oblivion, our soul never to be seen again. Reincarnation without memory of past-life. No, it's called eternal happiness in heaven or eternal torture in hell. You only get one shot, use it wisely. Pray, believe, and do good deeds. You're in heaven if you do this.

Wow, and you say we blow things out of proportion. None of us are calling for a holocaust of religious people. Unjustified killing is far from the points we're trying to make. You're making it sound like we're the most evil people in the world and you're part of some higher group. Everybody has a right to the religion they wish to believe or not believe in. When that religion is forcefully put into a child's mind, which is the most basic form of mind control, does that classify as abuse?

No, it doesn't. And if atheists continue, this will eventually happen.

Please don't double post ~ ImCoolBeans

[Truth]

You guys are honestly hopeless. What do you want me to say, our kids don't have the right to religion and people who teach children religions and morals go to jail for twenty some odd years just because of what we believe in. You are the people who are going to start another holocaust. Another scar on humanity. That's where we're heading. You want another full-scale global holocaust, I don't. That would include atheism. Foreign countries forced to take sides. Boom, WWIII, we're all dead. Do you want to be the cause off humanity's death. I sure don't. Think about the future. There you want a debate, you got it. Try me. You have the lowest rep from your attempt at "debating" that I've ever seen.

Explain to me how the lack of religion, which separates every individual, will cause a holocaust? You do understand the christian religion has slaughtered over 10 million people in the name of god, simply because they feel superior to the other cultures around them? The christian wars have had more victims than the holocaust, if you don't honestly know.

[StoppingTime]

Well, I'm pretty sure that's the way you're putting it, that it's a crime to teach this to children.

I don't believe anyone in this thread ever called it a crime. Some people say it is wrong to force it upon children at a young age, and I think it should. Being religious, mind you. I'd teach them things, without forcing it on them. If they don't like it, they don't have to observe.


It sounds like you want it as the law. That will be the trigger for WWIII. Let me tell you, land of the free. Stop trying to make a difference with this, you'll never win this argument. I can get some very religious people to tell you you're wrong.

Nobody wants to ban religion. If you remember, this country was created partially because people wanted religious freedom. That isn't going anywhere. Are there extremist groups who think like this? Sure. But that's what they are, extremists. And I don't understand why it would cause World War Three.
With that aside....
You can't prove whether religion is right or not. It's faith, it isn't meant to be proven. Again, I'm telling you this coming from a religious aspect. The whole point is faith, not religious activists screaming why they are right.



There is a point in teaching this to children. They learn morals and what's right from wrong. If we don't teach this to our kids, more than now will become criminals…

It shouldn't be forced, that's the argument. Not whether it should be taught at all.
And I doubt that atheist people have a higher crime rate, I just don't see where that is coming from.



This idea of atheism in kids, no one will accept religion, there you go. Everyone goes to hell. What do you think happens when we die, we just go into an oblivion, our soul never to be seen again. Reincarnation without memory of past-life. No, it's called eternal happiness in heaven or eternal torture in hell. You only get one shot, use it wisely. Pray, believe, and do good deeds. You're in heaven if you do this.

People have a right to believe whatever they'd like. I don't think it is right for anyone saying what they can and cannot do, and forcing it upon their children.

[Phazit]

Well, I am Agnostic (please don't all boo at once) and I think that children have the right to consider all points of view no matter what their parents believe. Of course, many people tend to be shall we say "arrogant" towards theism and atheism, refusing to contemplate the other's beliefs. These attitudes most likely come from earlier life, and may be a result of parental education, believing that their own acumen is superior. I say this in the most respectful way possible, and I think that "every man is to his own" but surely this means that parents should not interfere with how children perceive religious subjects? After all, what we do from an early age develops and grows into a more solid habit, and reflects how we live our every day lives. Bottom line: Children should judge and analyse for themselves, and not be influenced by their parents. Respect the beliefs of yourself, so to speak - no matter what they are.
Hope this contributes well enough!

[khila]

yes it is i was bapitised when i was 2...i really hate it and everytime i ask to get debapitised my parents force me to go to church

[HDDH]

At the risk of sounding like a pretentious dick, Christopher Hitchens wrote a whole chapter in God is Not Great about this. I believe (with prompting from Hitchens) that to force the dogma's of religion and teach children that they must fear a great being, themselves and every "impure" thought that goes through their head is child abuse. Religion only succeeds through fear and fear is just psychological abuse, so yes, actually making kids go to church, mosque or synagogue and learn that they're miserable guilty sinners and are probably going to hell is child abuse.

That being said, teaching kids objectively about religion and its spirituality and art I see nothing wrong with. That's just learning and when they learn enough, they can think it through and decide if they believe or don't believe.

[beplubber24]

I'm going to use the example of 9/11. So many little things happened that made it as good for us as possible. There was an NY vs. NY Monday night game. There was a major accident on one of the bridges during rush hour. The plane that hit the pentagon hit the ring under construction. The towers imploded on themselves, instead of falling over on their side and causing a lot more people perishing. Tell me why all that happened. Coincidence, I think not. Why should we tell our kids this was a coincidence when it wasn't, it was from God. I'm just using this as an example. Battle your atheist thoughts with this.

[Sugaree]

I'm going to use the example of 9/11. So many little things happened that made it as good for us as possible. There was an NY vs. NY Monday night game. There was a major accident on one of the bridges during rush hour. The plane that hit the pentagon hit the ring under construction. The towers imploded on themselves, instead of falling over on their side and causing a lot more people perishing. Tell me why all that happened. Coincidence, I think not. Why should we tell our kids this was a coincidence when it wasn't, it was from God. I'm just using this as an example. Battle your atheist thoughts with this.

Contributing events in your life to God isn't even in the realm of questioning, here. If you get sick and the doctor prescribes you medicine, do you thank God? No, you thank the doctor for giving you the medicine to make you healthy. If your wife gives birth to a healthy child, do you thank God? No, you admire your wife for going through nine months of intense physical trials.

The events you listed pertaining to 9/11 can be debated to their full extent. However, you can't attribute the WTC towers imploding on themselves to God. It was a natural physical reaction in the towers which caused this.

[beplubber24]

The way those towers fell was because of where they were hit. Towards the upper region, if it had been hit in the lower region, it would've fell over to its side. God is almighty and powerful, he gave you free will to think what you think, but you're using it in the wrong way.

[Sugaree]

The way those towers fell was because of where they were hit. Towards the upper region, if it had been hit in the lower region, it would've fell over to its side. God is almighty and powerful, he gave you free will to think what you think, but you're using it in the wrong way.

How can that be? If I was given the free will to think how I please, is there really a wrong way to think? That's like putting a dog in a fenced yard and then chaining them.

[JackShephard]

To inform children about religion and spirituality, no. But forcing them to conform and limit their thinking is wrong.

[beplubber24]

How can that be? If I was given the free will to think how I please, is there really a wrong way to think? That's like putting a dog in a fenced yard and then chaining them.

No, it's not like putting them in a fenced yard with a chain, but free will ought not to be used incorrectly.

[StoppingTime]

No, it's not like putting them in a fenced yard with a chain, but free will ought not to be used incorrectly.

How do you justify incorrect? If it's free will, you can do whatever you think is right.

[Sugaree]

No, it's not like putting them in a fenced yard with a chain, but free will ought not to be used incorrectly.

But that's where your argument fails. You can't call it free will if there's a correct way to use it. There's no right or wrong way to use free will, that's why it's called free will.

[wyatt]

If we raised children without religion, but taught the gruesome effects of it, then gave then the chance to be religious when they come of age, how many do you HONESTLY think would convert to a religion?

[Sugaree]

If we raised children without religion, but taught the gruesome effects of it, then gave then the chance to be religious when they come of age, how many do you HONESTLY think would convert to a religion?

Except that's biased. You're only giving your children the worst religion has resulted in, not the good.

[mranderson]

of course its not child abuse and if you think it is then you seriously have to set your priorities

[Sugaree]

of course its not child abuse and if you think it is then you seriously have to set your priorities

But what if it's pushed onto them by family? It's not abuse in the most common form, but it IS a form of mental abuse.

[Truth]

Except that's biased. You're only giving your children the worst religion has resulted in, not the good. What do you mean? What makes one religion worse than another?

[kenoloor]

What do you mean? What makes one religion worse than another?

Murdoc was saying that only educating people on the negative results of religion and not the positives is biased.

[double r]

In some culture it is and it is based upon discipline, but it is very rare.

[CrashingWaves]

I think if you teach it in such a way that the child becomes to the point where he or she is willing to lay down their lives for the religion it is abuse, because in my opinion the kids, the next generation is more important than the words in the Bible, and no kid should be willing to lay down their lives for religion not until they have been through school, but even still I think it is a bit of a waste of a person if they are going to die because someone doesn't agree with them.

[organickush]

religion is like a penis; it's ok to have one and be proud of it, but don't go shoving it down your kids' throats

[Truth]

Murdoc was saying that only educating people on the negative results of religion and not the positives is biased. Oh I see, I just believe that there has been very little good done in the name of a God.

There really isn't any positives. You may talk about love and acceptance, but religion divides people apart, no matter what.

To teach children the positives that rarely happen, while ignoring the negatives, is even worse in my opinion. Then you're simply lying to them. :yawn:

[kenoloor]

To teach children the positives that rarely happen, while ignoring the negatives, is even worse in my opinion.

I don't necessarily think it's worse, but I do think that religions should be taught as objectively as possible. Obviously everyone is biased, specifically on a topic as "controversial" as religion, but it's still possible to educate in a mostly impartial manner.

[Aves]

I do not see it as abuse until parents will disown their child for not believing what they want them to believe. I see leading kids in a path of a certain religion as perfectly acceptable, so long as parents leave the choice ultimately up to the child.

[ryan2000]

Child abuse? No. Brainwashing and removing free choice? Yes. A child generally, if not always, adopts the views of the parent. In this case, religion. The child is not given the choice for themselves; what they are raised with is what they will believe. I was raised with no religion, or any talk on the matter, so i can learn for myself what felt right to me. I believe this to be the best path to take in parenting, and is what i will do with my children.

[beplubber24]

No, if I want to teach my children religion, I'll teach all of it. I will force it down upon them, because I want them to go to heaven. Is it a sin to want your child to be there with you in heaven, or be separated from you in hell. Is that child abuse. I'm only 15, but I will lay down my life for my religion if I have to. I don't care what you people say, that's my life, and my choice.

[JackShephard]

Child abuse? Absurd. Forcing them to conform however cannot be done even if you become oppressive. That is a decision everyone has to make on their own. Being forceful and mean about it would be crossing the line in my mind.

[kenoloor]

I don't care what you people say, that's my life, and my choice.

Why do you bother to post in a debate thread if you're not even going to continuing the debate? Please, enlighten me.

[Weeping_Angel]

No, if I want to teach my children religion, I'll teach all of it. I will force it down upon them, because I want them to go to heaven. Is it a sin to want your child to be there with you in heaven, or be separated from you in hell. Is that child abuse. I'm only 15, but I will lay down my life for my religion if I have to. I don't care what you people say, that's my life, and my choice.

What's the point of being in a debate, if you're going to be a stubboeprn mule?

[beplubber24]

I can say the same about you stupid atheists.

[Truth]

No, if I want to teach my children religion, I'll teach all of it. I will force it down upon them, because I want them to go to heaven. Is it a sin to want your child to be there with you in heaven, or be separated from you in hell. Is that child abuse. I'm only 15, but I will lay down my life for my religion if I have to. I don't care what you people say, that's my life, and my choice. According to God, rape is okay aslong as you force the girl to marry you after you're done. So how is it relevant whether or not it's a sin? It's not a sin for someone to rape your girlfriend, marry her, and take your child as long as they are "the lords" people. So forcing your child into religion is about as "just and kind" as doing that, yet you still are going to?

You want to lay down your life for religion, huh? You have a lot of growing up to do. One day, you will realize how silly your argument is. "God tells me I have to force my own thoughts on my child before they're old enough to question god, so that Christianity stays in existence forever. This is fair to my child, because they don't deserve a choice or an opinion." is what you just said.

I truly, truly hope you never pro-create. Your child should get their own choice, but at the age of 15 you are so closed-minded you're not even willing to let your own child have a choice.

What if you chose the wrong god? What if Islam is right, and you and your son are sent to hell for eternity because of your choice to force him to follow your steps?

[beplubber24]

According to God, rape is okay aslong as you force the girl to marry you after you're done. So how is it relevant whether or not it's a sin? It's not a sin for someone to rape your girlfriend, marry her, and take your child as long as they are "the lords" people. So forcing your child into religion is about as "just and kind" as doing that, yet you still are going to?

You want to lay down your life for religion, huh? You have a lot of growing up to do. One day, you will realize how silly your argument is. "God tells me I have to force my own thoughts on my child before they're old enough to question god, so that Christianity stays in existence forever. This is fair to my child, because they don't deserve a choice or an opinion." is what you just said.

I truly, truly hope you never pro-create. Your child should get their own choice, but at the age of 15 you are so closed-minded you're not even willing to let your own child have a choice.

What if you chose the wrong god? What if Islam is right, and you and your son are sent to hell for eternity because of your choice to force him to follow your steps?

Obviously, you know nothing about Christianity. First of all, I know the verse you're talking about, and you blow it way out of proportion. Second of all, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all based on the same God, so that argument is worthless. Actually read the Bible and don't take stuff out, that is related to others. Besides, that whole "rape" argument was put-down to rest earlier in this thread, look back at that bible verse. Your argument is pitiful.

[JackShephard]

OMG both of you shut up! Lol

[kenoloor]

I'm going to regret getting involved in this "debate," but oh fucking well.

I can say the same about you stupid atheists.

First of all, calling people "stupid atheists" on the grounds that you dislike the fact that someone disagrees with you doesn't accomplish anything. Actually, no, that's wrong. It does accomplish something. It effectively makes you look desperate for an argument and clueless in the natural progression of debating and discussing, and causes you to come across as an immature fool who doesn't know what he's doing in a debate board. You're welcome for the tip.

Obviously, you know nothing about Christianity.

You're clearly the authority on Christianity.

First of all, I know the verse you're talking about, and you blow it way out of proportion.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 says, "[28] If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, [29] he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

I wouldn't call that blown "way out of proportion." This isn't really open to any "interpretation." The Bible, your holy text, clearly states that if a man rapes a woman who has not been engaged, he must not only pay her father, but marry the woman. That's fucking retarded. In this instance (surprisingly) I agree with user Truth's argument. But just in this instance. This is certainly not the kind of "morality" (if you can call it that) that is generally accepted by the population, and perpetuating this kind of a misogynistic attitude will only contribute to a society that is ultimately reactionary which promotes abuse and mistreatment of certain peoples based on arbitrary qualities (culture, color, religion, sexuality, sex, gender, etc.) instead of constantly progressing and accepting those in society who are left ostracized as a result of religion's asinine attempts at exclusion and elitism.

Actually read the Bible and don't take stuff out, that is related to others.

So who decides what is "taken out of context"? Technically, using any Bible verse within an argument is "taking it out of context" because you're not supplying it within the context of the entire Bible (which would be stupid to do in and of itself)

Your argument is pitiful.

If only we were such debating protégés as yourself.

[Truth]

Obviously, you know nothing about Christianity. First of all, I know the verse you're talking about, and you blow it way out of proportion. Second of all, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all based on the same God, so that argument is worthless. Actually read the Bible and don't take stuff out, that is related to others. Besides, that whole "rape" argument was put-down to rest earlier in this thread, look back at that bible verse. Your argument is pitiful. You did not make a single legitimate point in your post. You simply attempted to criticize me for using the bible against you. Your argument is non existent, and therefore moot. Good day sir. :yeah:

[JackShephard]

You did not make a single legitimate point in your post. You simply attempted to criticize me for using the bible against you. Your argument is non existent, and therefore moot. Good day sir. :yeah:

Well in any case, you BOTH should realize that whatever you read from the bible can be taken different ways. Clearly you are both on different sides of the fence and will most likely take different interpretations from it slanted to what you believe. What I am getting at is that really, you can't prove anything one way or the other with a book that is so open to interpretation.

[georgiamay]

Ignoring the "debate" about something that seems to be religion bashing rather than actually debating the question, I'm going to put my opinion in.

No, I don't think it's child abuse. Whether or not it's the right thing to do is a different matter. Some people honestly believe that if you don't believe in God, you'll go to hell. I don't agree with that, but some people believe it. Those people will want to teach their children their religion, because they don't want their child to go to hell. I can see where they're coming from with that.

BUT. I don't like forcing the child to be religious. Take them to church, show them what you believe, but they also need to see the other sides to the story as well. If they only see one side to it, then it's not really faith, is it? If it's all they know, then it's not truly believing in it; it's just the way they've been brought up.

Also, being religious just so you can get into heaven? Surely God would see through that plan.

[Truth]

Well in any case, you BOTH should realize that whatever you read from the bible can be taken different ways. Clearly you are both on different sides of the fence and will most likely take different interpretations from it slanted to what you believe. What I am getting at is that really, you can't prove anything one way or the other with a book that is so open to interpretation. How can that be taken in any other manner? It is very specific, GOD promotes the rape of slaves they bring in from war.

It is not open to interpretation when it is written so clearly.

I believe it is abuse to teach children war, rape, slavery, etc... is okay.

[plebble]

NO

It's not child abuse to teach children about religion, but I think it's wrong to force them into believing a religion.

If teaching them about religion is child abuse, then teaching them about the Big Bang is also child abuse because it's telling them of beliefs which you think is wrong.

Forcing them into religion, which most parents do, I think is wrong because it's like saying belonging to a religion is just like belonging to a political party which they also know nothing about. For example, how can a child be born a Hindu if he knows nothing about it? That's just like saying a child is born a Republican.

I think children should choose their own belief when they are old enough to understand. And it is not child abuse to teach religion.

[JackShephard]

How can that be taken in any other manner? It is very specific, GOD promotes the rape of slaves they bring in from war.

It is not open to interpretation when it is written so clearly.

I believe it is abuse to teach children war, rape, slavery, etc... is okay.

You refuse to look at it in the eyes of someone else. I understand your point, but take a look at it from another angle. One could interpret the laws describing rape as a way to make it right. You have to remember that these where barbaric times and that is old testament law anyway. I'm pretty sure that the christian god does not promote rape. If your going to make claims, at least back them up. And even then, most cases cannot be proven ether way on such an old text that has been translated over and over, and INTERPRETED many different ways.

[Gaybaby94]

Yes.I do think so. If I ever adopt I will tell them my opinion (In a nice and mature way of course) and I will take them to church when they are old enough and I will let them decide. I will also explain my troubles during childhood due to religion, but I will allow them to make their own choice.

[Truth]

You refuse to look at it in the eyes of someone else. I understand your point, but take a look at it from another angle. One could interpret the laws describing rape as a way to make it right. You have to remember that these where barbaric times and that is old testament law anyway. I'm pretty sure that the christian god does not promote rape. If your going to make claims, at least back them up. And even then, most cases cannot be proven ether way on such an old text that has been translated over and over, and INTERPRETED many different ways. Yeah, the best way to make it up to a girl you raped is to force her to marry you.

That is definitely logical and kind. The act of a true god. :what:

I have already proven to you with biblical text that god promotes rape. Over time, the bible has become even less barbaric, no one would have even followed a god if it stayed as it originally were, it used to be a lot worse...

"4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

"5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." Did you get raped? Well too bad, we're going to bring you out behind the shed and shoot you in the face.

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." Murder a woman's entire family and town? Well, god is going to let you marry her and forcibly rape her for the rest of her life. Until you get bored of her, that is.


How can you legitimately interpret this in any other manner other than what is implied?

[Sudds3]

That's why Catholics have to recieve the sacrament of confirmation....to confirm your faith! before that you can leave the church if you want, so I've had plenty of time to learn about other religions and my own, I do not believe in a lot of stuff the catholic church has to offer but I agree with a lot of it too. So for me nothing was forced upon me, I could have made my choice and my parents made it very evident that I could convert if I wanted to.

[beplubber24]

Why do you look at the bad things. If you look in the New Testament, Jesus saves a lot of people by performing miracles. He was punished and arrested a lot, but it was for our salvation.

[Erasmus]

No, how would it be child abuse?

[pyroar]

I think it's perfectly fine for parents to introduce their children to a religion.
If they're forcing their kids to be that religion, then that's another story. :P

[Professional Russian]

I can say the same about you stupid atheists.

Why Are Atheists So Stupid? You Should Have a Great Reason For This.

[Bath]

It's not child abuse.

I think it's fine to teach your kids about your religion, as long as they know that they have the choice to decide for themselves.

Even if it's forced upon them, that's just bad parenting, but it's not child abuse.

[Bolt]

No. If you're open and allowing them to explore other possible religious avenues as well then that's perfectly acceptable. Teaching them about religion and broadening their wealth of knowledge over something they may or may not believe is not a crime and nor should it be. However, forcing your child to believe in what you believe despite their own disbelief in it is child abuse. Let them decide what is good for them. Only the individual can decide what is best for themselves.

[abdheuuuchjc]

I think saying "god made all creatures" is alittle blunt it should be "Christians believe god made the first people while atheists think it was evolution" is Much better

[abdheuuuchjc]

Oh I see, I just believe that there has been very little good done in the name of a God.

There really isn't any positives. You may talk about love and acceptance, but religion divides people apart, no matter what.

To teach children the positives that rarely happen, while ignoring the negatives, is even worse in my opinion. Then you're simply lying to them. :yawn:
What about all the religious based disaster relief organizations?

[Bharris13]

Is it abuse to teach children about religion? No. Teaching religion is not harmful to anyone provided it is not forceful. People are taught about homosexuality, racism, the holocaust and prostitution from a very young age. Personally, I think it is more abusive not to teach a child about both religion and atheism. By only teaching the one point of view, it can be viewed as indoctrinating your child into believing certain things.

[StoppingTime]

I think saying "god made all creatures" is alittle blunt it should be "Christians believe god made the first people while atheists think it was evolution" is Much better

This statement is false. You can't group religious all religious people together, nor can you group all non-religious together.
People have varying opinions, and to label them like that is wrong.

[shatter..]

I believe that forcing a particular religion onto a child is not healthy. Some of these children could grow up being misinformed about other religions and appear ignorant. If the parents are planning on introducing them to religion they should be introduced to all religions equally, and without bias.