Bourgeois and Proletariat

[kolte]

“The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles”

The opening of the Communist Manifesto is, without much opposition, the truth. Its undeniable, to say the least. A king and a peasant, lord and peasant, master and slave, oppressor and oppressed, guild master and journey man, bourgeois and proletariat. The agrarian societies oppressed the hunter and gatherers, the feudal lords, the agrarians, and the capitalists the feudal lords. With technology they latched hold, fueled by Calvinist religious values and an urgency to make money.

Today there are those who have and those who don't. Those that own land, and factories, and stock, and the money. The top 5% of the people of the united states have half the money. That leaves a small slice of the pie to be shared by 250 million plus people. These are the Bourgeois, the Capitalist, the CEO, the landlord. He that controls your life.

Jeesh, I need to save some for the debate....

What do you think about communism.

kolte

[Everglow]

In its purest form, communism yields a lack of political, economic, bureaucratic, social, cultural and intellectual competition. In essence, it’s people sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya. Communism decrees that everyone be equal. However, the equality factor of communism prescribes that everyone be equally poor, equally impoverished and equally ignorant.

[Bobby]

I simply don't like it. People who work harder deserve more.

Man, I remember this big debate we had about this.

[kolte]

In its purest form, communism yields a lack of political, economic, bureaucratic, social, cultural and intellectual competition. In essence, it’s people sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya. Communism decrees that everyone be equal. However, the equality factor of communism prescribes that everyone be equally poor, equally impoverished and equally ignorant.

Finally I get a bite. Thank god. But though you seeming oppose communism, you don't give an alternative to it. Are you saying then that capitalism is more so “right”. From the perspective of the social conflict paradigm, I'm fried that capitalism, though very productive, places the money in the hands of the few while the majority of the population suffers in or near poverty.

If the income of the united states economy was equally distributed amongst the people each citizen would have an income of approx. 40k a year. Thats upper middle class for everyone. And no, communism does not work on the concept of competition, instead we see the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

[Trebor]

The biggest flaw with Communism is that it's not true to human nature. Becuase of this it can never work.

[kolte]

The biggest flaw with Communism is that it's not true to human nature. Becuase of this it can never work.

It is the essense of human nature. It is what denines us. The history of civilization is the result of class struggles. Its the center of sociological perpective. When you look at the past you see that you are where you are today becasue of what your father did. and what his father did and so on. You are the product of the last generations doing. And so, now you are faced with a society that is the showdow of humanity. Its up to us to unite against our opressor, those that enslave the people of all races, sexes, religions. Those that own the factories, the farms, the markets, the busines. The landlord the manager. You have nothing but your labor to sell, and at what cost, the horried, fear, revered fact tht you life will be nothing but a quest for money.

I want something better. I opt for communism.

[Maverick]

Ew no! If I work hard, I should get more than the lazy bum next to me. There's no incentive to work hard or even work at all. Communism benefits the poor, not the middle class and rich. Communism gives the poor a raise while everyone else big a pay cut. We are not equal. Some work hard and hence why they have money. If someone goes through years of college and becomes a doctor he should make hell of a lot more than some garbage man who's some drop out.

Some people are poor because they don't want to work hard. All those kids you see in high school goofing off, coming to class late, sleeping in class, and not doing their work will suffer and pay the price if they don't change. Someone who did their work and worked hard shouldn't give 60% of his pay check to lazy scums like them. The person doesn't deserve it. He should NOT make the same pay because he does not contribute the same.

I love capitalism and I love the oppurtunity it can give you. Anyone can be successful in it. You just have to work hard. It's not going to happen for you.

[Trebor]

I want something better. I opt for communism.


So, you want to live in a third world economy? The only way that's better is if you live in Arkansa.

[kolte]

So, you want to live in a third world economy? The only way that's better is if you live in Arkansa.

Objection, leading the witness! *mutters something about validity*

Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing. You say only a third world economy? But you skew the reality. Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists* Capitalism can only hold off for so long. Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries? I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills. I see no future for me in a capitalist country. Why not try and better myself. If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.

The bum down the street would still be a bum on the street. He represents a counter culture, and would change little from a capitalist to a communist country.

capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?

[Maverick]

kolte, you're 17. You have to start off somewhere. You can't just go into the real world and have everything all at once. You have to work for it. Yes it will take a lot of work and it may take longer than someone else but you still have the oppurtunity. You have many years ahead of you and you'll make progress if you work at it. You can't expect to get far now when you're not even a legal adult.

[kolte]

No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others. The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides. He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer. This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all. I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination. I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!

[Maverick]

Well then, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Sorry but you can't change a way of life and kill the ideas of what this country stands for.

[Whisper]

No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others. The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides. He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer. This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all. I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination. I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!

Terrorist

[kolte]

Terrorist

"you read me like a book brian"

Some would consider me the terrorist. But I don't really see it that way. I would truly ask them to look inside themselves, and truly consider, what is right? what is wrong? Are they really being moral? They live at the expense of sombodys labor. Not there own, but many. Do you really think they worked hard? Most born into wealth, lived up to wealth, they prosper at the expense of the masses, and opress the children and the less fortunate people of the third world. Capatilism is a monster, a government, a nation in fact, was systematically assembled to be ruled by capatilists, to establish a new world order, where money controlls life, not god. And now, the masses slave not for the lord of the land and the king, but they slave for the neighbor, the landlord, the CEO the Co. the Big timers, this government is the organization of one class to rule the lower classes.

[Sage]

Objection, leading the witness! *mutters something about validity*

Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing. You say only a third world economy? But you skew the reality. Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists* Capitalism can only hold off for so long. Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries? I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills. I see no future for me in a capitalist country. Why not try and better myself. If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.

The bum down the street would still be a bum on the street. He represents a counter culture, and would change little from a capitalist to a communist country.

capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?

Somebody doesn't like their job.

[Whisper]

Okay a bum with terrorist ideals
w/e

You just dont like your job
Very few people do
get over it

I LOVED my last job EXTREMLY long days were talkin many 26hr days out in the middle of nowhere
I felt GREAT I was proud of my job
I was proud of my pay cheque
I was proud that I was living away from home
and I was having a BLAST with my coworkers

Break-up happened and at the same time my company sold to Flint Safety....ewwww

So now i'm helping my parents renovate and then Outfitting from September to November

Then a job till Feb
then school

why
Because I live in the west where I can get a job
Where I can get food
Where I Have clean drinking water
A home
and WICKED toys

VIVA CANADA!!!


Communism is flawed
thats been proven over and over and over
I have no intrest in busting my ass and watching some complete bum acheive exactly the same as me
fuck that
If you work hard you should have something to show for it
something to be proud of

[Bobby]

If Communism was used in the US, that would eliminate colleges, because colleges help you get better jobs. But why would you want a better college-quality job if you could just go work at McDonalds and get equally paid? Then without College we would have a lot of uneducated people running around doing important jobs that they shouldn't be doing.

[Trebor]

Kolte, the thing about capitalism is that it's as anti-humanism a philophy as you can get. Communism doesn't work either.

[kolte]

Meh, communism does work, it just hasnt been tried out. And I've got to say, the whole soviet thing, not the best press for communism. However, I'm confident that enough people are gonna be affected by global warming and economic stagnation, and polerization and things of that nature that are sure to come in the future, and I think those people are going to be looking for a alternative to the failed system that is a democratic government.

I would rather work as a team then against somebody
I would rather share wealth then hoard it or be without

"Labor is a commodity, like any other, and its price is therefore determined by exactly the same laws that apply to other commodities. In a regime of big industry or of free competition – as we shall see, the two come to the same thing – the price of a commodity is, on the average, always equal to its cost of production. Hence, the price of labor is also equal to the cost of production of labor.
But, the costs of production of labor consist of precisely the quantity of means of subsistence necessary to enable the worker to continue working, and to prevent the working class from dying out. The worker will therefore get no more for his labor than is necessary for this purpose; the price of labor, or the wage, will, in other words, be the lowest, the minimum, required for the maintenance of life.
However, since business is sometimes better and sometimes worse, it follows that the worker sometimes gets more and sometimes gets less for his commodities. But, again, just as the industrialist, on the average of good times and bad, gets no more and no less for his commodities than what they cost, similarly on the average the worker gets no more and no less than his minimum.
This economic law of wages operates the more strictly the greater the degree to which big industry has taken possession of all branches of production."


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

[Sage]

Communism may work on paper, but past experiences have shown that things go wrong, every time.

[kolte]

However, communism as it is on paper has not been tried out in the real world. The soviet union and things like that are what we like to call state capatilists, as well as china, vietnam, north korea, and cuba. None of these classify as true communist states, they are just built around macro capatilism.

[Sage]

I concur, it has been tried, and those who have tried it have failed at it.

[Trebor]

China, Cuba, Vietnam, Africa, I think those show it doesn't as well?

[unknown(to_myself)]

Did you even read what kolte wrote, Trebor?
However, communism as it is on paper has not been tried out in the real world. The soviet union and things like that are what we like to call state capatilists, as well as china, vietnam, north korea, and cuba. None of these classify as true communist states, they are just built around macro capatilism.

I fully believe that an anarchist communist society is our only choice. Just to state my opinion.

[Sage]

Did you even read what kolte wrote, Trebor?

I fully believe that an anarchist communist society is our only choice. Just to state my opinion.

Contradiction! How would Anarchy mix in with any sort of government anyhow?

[kolte]

anarchist communism is what is also called true communism, the "state" ownership of everything referes to the PEOPLE ownership of everything. There for state is just a fancy word for all the people of a particular region. My signiture is a quote from a famous anarchist communist

[Trebor]

I think you mean "War Communism", like the idea that Mr. Lenin envisaged.

[kolte]

Good sources for information on Communist Anarchism.

A detailed discription (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism)
http://www.anarkismo.net/index.php
http://www.afed.org.uk/
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3909/

http://134.173.117.152/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/revpamphlets/anarchistcommunism.html

To believe in communism is to accept science. The next evolution in society is communism, you don't have to support it, it will happen. Just as the aristocrocy was dissolved by the capatilists, and the agrigarian societys dissolved by the aristocrocy, and the hunter gatherer's dissolved the the agrigarian and pastoral societies. It will come to pass. But at this we should rejoice. No more unequality, no more master and servent, you make your living off of yourself, your neighbor of himself, nobody becomes wealthy or powerfull of the labor of another man or woman. You see? There is nothing evil, or polluted, or flawed. It is not a utopia, there would be problems, but the problems would be much less then the problems facing a capatilist society. There will still be pain, and unequality, it is the nature of mankind, but it will be better, then what we have today. That I can say with confidence.

[Dante]

Communism works for some: Cuba, China, Vietnam, N.Korea ( only because it is still their form of govt today)

and it doesnt work for others: Soviet Union

I believe it sounds good on paper, but it is a flawed idea.

[kolte]

Communism works for some: Cuba, China, Vietnam, N.Korea ( only because it is still their form of govt today)

and it doesnt work for others: Soviet Union

I believe it sounds good on paper, but it is a flawed idea.

What makes it look good on paper? What are its flawes? Do you really know? Are you just saying that?

[Whisper]

it does NOT work well in North Korea at all

Cuba, China...ya

N korea..no

[Sage]

North Korea is like, a fucking cult.

[kolte]

I shall now explain how the countries in the world today with a communist name, are actually not communist at all.

North Korea is officially described as a Juche (self-reliance) State. Government is organized as dictatorship. Kim Il-sung, the founder of North Korea, was the country's first and only president. He was not replaced, instead receiving the designation of "Eternal President", and rests in the Kumsusan Memorial Palace in central Pyongyang. The active position has been abolished in deference to the memory of Kim Il-sung.How then can you claim North Korea is communist. In communism, no one mans voice is greater then another, there is nobody with more power then another.

While the PRC is regarded as a communist state by many political scientists, simple characterizations of China's political structure are controversial.[16] The PRC government has been variously described as authoritarian, communist, and socialist, with heavy restrictions remaining in many areas, most notably in the Internet and in the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of movement, freedom of reproductive rights, and freedom of religion. The country is ruled under the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. Its incumbent Paramount Leader is President Hu Jintao and premier is Wen Jiabao with people's congress and Communist Party of China.Once again, the government rules the people, not the other way around. This once again is a form of Macro Capatilism.

Same for cuba, same for vietnam. A government should be a horizontal network of voluntary associations, workers' councilscommons through which everyone will be free to satisfy their needs.e

[Sage]

Alright. Enough of this. I'm bringing down the debate hammer.

Communism fails as an idea because it is based on the concept of equality, which, in itself, is false. Let's say there are two average men. One goes to university and becomes a rocket scientist, the other works at McDonalds. Financially, the rocket scientist is superior. He has worked harder and is more experienced than the man who works at McDonalds, therefor he is more deserving of a higher salary.

But, you believe they should be equal, so let's say they are. The rocket scientist has now been going to university for several years, and cannot maintain a job during that time, so he doesn't get paid. The man who works at McDonalds however, has gone through no long training session, and works during and after the time that the would-be scientist is in university. Therefor over time, the man who works at McDonalds has made more money.

But you may argue that the scientist in university can get a part time job elsewhere, and still be paid the same amount. That'd be equal, no? Now, what if everyone had done this? University and higher education are starting to look pretty pointless, in my opinion.

This is the simple fact: We are not all equal. People who work harder are rewarded more in life, why you find that hard to swallow is beyond me.

Let's analyze something you said earlier, shall we?

No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others. The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides. He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer. This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all. I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination. I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!

That's a big post. I'll go a sentence or two at a time. Let's begin.

No, I refuse to become wealthy off of the labor of others.

Becoming wealthy off the labor of others is a manager's job, so would you rather be an employee your whole life?

The cloths on my back reek of blood. Starving children, bellies bloated, hands calloused, sew the shirt on my back, every rise of his hand seared with pain, the hunger in his stomach was aching, burning, tearing at his insides.

If you are so against child labor, then why do you wear the shirt? Why not make your own shirts? But no, that would be greedy. As you said yourself, capitalism is greed, so you can't do that.

He forgot how to taste, how to breath, he suffered and died. For what, a piece of shit, a tee shirt, a shoe, a fucking computer.

As I said previously, it's not hard to make your own things. You don't even know what things are made by child laborors, there is no tag on any shirt that says "MADE BY CHILDREN". Perhaps they were before, but machinery can make most of the things we buy every day.

This is macro capitalism, where this awful government supports its slave drivers, the capitalists, the regimes, the wal mart, the kmart, the target, the kroger, the mcdonalds, the burger king, the wendys, the jc pennys, the belk, the dollar store, the PG&E's and the Entergy's and all the smut that you hate, that owns us all.

How can you compare slave drivers to grocery stores and fast food chains? I don't see the connection. I underline 'all the smut that you hate' because this implies that we all hate all those things you listed. When in reality you hate them and we don't have any problem with it all. And what's with this "owns us all" crap? Walmart doesnt own me, it doesnt control what I do. Buying groceries does not make me some corporation's bitch.

I will NOT be an oppressor, I will NOT feed the machine, I refuse

If you don't want to be an oppressor, stop buying things. If you do not want to feed the machine, stop buying things.

I refuse. BREAK the machine i say, SLAUGHTER the machine, it has been cruel, and shallow, and hallow and a hallucination.

The so-called "machine" is called economy, get used to it.

I am a communist, I am a freedom fighter, I am anti America, anti western thought, the day of reckoning has come, and americas days of plenty are few, because the people will not forever be blind to the oppressor!

Now you're just rambling.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us take a look at another of your posts, shall we?

Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing. You say only a third world economy? But you skew the reality. Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists* Capitalism can only hold off for so long. Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries? I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills. I see no future for me in a capitalist country. Why not try and better myself. If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.

The bum down the street would still be a bum on the street. He represents a counter culture, and would change little from a capitalist to a communist country.

capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?

Your posts arent very valid arguments. They are more snide remarks with little to no factual bearing.

You're one to talk, freedom fighter. : P

Communism is the next leap forward by society. Its a fact, *asking me or many sociologists*

Based on my points mentioned at the start of this post, I disagree. Communism discourages innovation and higher education by paying everyone equality.

Capitalism can only hold off for so long.

Give me examples of capitalist countries that have not lasted very long.

Are you rich my friend? Middle class? Privileged? No worries?

For someone against class discrimination, you sound pretty bitter.

I work, 8 to 12 hours a day, labor, I serve no purpose have no creativity, I'm an alienated robot, doing as I'm told by some bourgeois pig! Its difficult. Theres hardly money to eat, to pay the bills.

Somebody should've done better in school. ; )

Why not try and better myself.

That's a very futile act in a world where everyone is paid equally regardless of education.

If all the world shared the world, then nobody would be poor or rich.

Valid enough point, I'll give you that, but the entire world doesn't want to share, and going by your communist beliefs, you can't force them to.

capitalism is greed
communism is equality

what are you?

I choose greed, because it isn't futile.

[Everglow]

If the income of the united states economy was equally distributed amongst the people each citizen would have an income of approx. 40k a year. Thats upper middle class for everyone. And no, communism does not work on the concept of competition, instead we see the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

What you just described here is not communism, but rather socialism, in which the wealth of the nation is shared equally among its inhabitants. Mondragon, Spain is a perfect example of it too...

Free development inhibits competition on all levels. It things are free, where's the profit? If intellect is free, what is intellect? If culture is free, where is diversity? If politics are free, where is change and reform? In a communistic state, there is no need for such characteristics.

All these governments that appropriate 'communism' as their form of government are wrong. The term is a misnomer that characterizes a state of incomplete transition. Some would call it the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. There is distinct transition, that Karl Marx, himself, prescribes for communism to come into existence. The USSR nearly got there, however, VI Lenin got greedy, he didn't return power back to the upper class. There has never been a true communist state in the history of the earth, with the exception of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden.

Communism throws us back to the days before the stone age...we'd be ignorant fools who'd know literally nothing. We'd be naked in a field, having sex at ease with whomever we please. Ignorace is bliss, so is communism.

[kolte]

Dear SubliminalTim

In the past I have received character defamations, but never has somebody so obsessively, so arrogantly, and unnecessarily gone out of there way to, perhaps better there self esteem on the behalf of my own. Though I don't expect an apology, and hope you don't feel obligated to do so, I do think that perhaps you should consider your words more carefully, so as not to come off rude. I know that I myself fail to do this, though I don't really see myself going to as great an extant as you, I do recognize that some of the things I say are blunt, unthoughtful, idealistic, distorted, unfocused, and rash, I was under the impression that this was a website where, blunt, unthoughtful, idealistic, distorted, unfocused, and rash teens could get together and share there views. I'm not just a human being, I'm a human being with severe personality disparities, and anti social, hostile behaviors. I acknowledge my flaws. Please, consider others when posting. I am not offended necessarily, but obviously I was made angry enough by your post to write this dialog. Please, discard it.

In the defense of communism:
Becoming wealthy off the labor of others is a manager's job, so would you rather be an employee your whole life?
You aren't really getting that I'm a communist are you? You see, in the advancement in society that I support, there would be a society radically different from ours. First of all, a manager is not a capitalist. Manager too is of working class. He too sells his only valuable, his labor, to make money. Our capitalist society reduces the working class to mere robots. Robots not the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind. Anyway, the working class does the same, repetitious job everyday, and the wages it ears for its toil is the minimum amount required to keep it alive. I have been born into a poor family, from a poor part of the united states, I went to a poor, underfunded school, I was mislead, and had little parental control. My mother worked nights, slept in the daytime, and I was isolated, in a new place, I had no friends, and so I turned to the world inside my head, and created a reality divided from the mainstream. My main form of entertainment came from reading. I read texts, not novels. I bought textbooks, and dictionaries, and encyclopedias, and have learned much about science, and mathematics, and language, and philosophy, religion, economics, and politics, not to mention work such as the communist manifesto, on religion, being and nothingness, the portable Nietzsche, the holy family, on the family. I found the Internet as a way to vent my frustrations and to see how my views matched up with my age appropriate population. My findings are, unique. I found that the youth of the nations are not revolutionary. They are spoiled, and dramatic, and enjoy there creature comforts. They are consumed in commercialization. They long for the next new thing. It is precisely what Nietzsche predicted. A generation, and many more it seems, of uneducated, ignorant, arrogant, and greedy people. These people will change the world, and for the better. They will erode society as it is today. They will cause it to fail, with there greed. We are already seeing some early signs of decay within, I need not point out how unstable the global society is becoming. Once the world falls into shambles, the capitalist society having failed, communism will be a haven for lost families. And those who shed the shadows of humanity, will recreate a new world, having noted the failings of the past.
If you are so against child labor, then why do you wear the shirt? Why not make your own shirts? But no, that would be greedy. As you said yourself, capitalism is greed, so you can't do that.
Not at all! I actually love the idea, and Think I'll take you up on that. Communism frowns upon a person who gets rich of the work of other people. A person working in a factory for example, really toils. And at the top of the pyramid, somebody sits back on a silk pillow sipping a margarita. Its not right. So making my own shirts, is actually a really great idea. I can buy material from a small business, so as not to support corporations. And one thing poverty thought me is to sew.
As I said previously, it's not hard to make your own things. You don't even know what things are made by child laborors, there is no tag on any shirt that says "MADE BY CHILDREN". Perhaps they were before, but machinery can make most of the things we buy every day.
One of the harsh realities of capitalism. The people of America might not slave for our goods, but people in say, Africa, SLAVE to make them. Its, as far as I'm aware, my own discovery. I'm sure that others have written on it, I can at least be sure that I came up with it, even if it has already be...come up with.(not well worded). Its called Macro Capitalism. Or, I have found State Capitalism. Micro Capitalism (My term), is where we find a capitalist, say, an oil tycoon, oppressing a worker. In Macro Capitalism, we find a government opressing its people, such as China, or Old Russia, or even modern countries like Sudan, Iran, and other poor African and Asian countries. to generate money the sell there goods to countries like the united states and also Europe, Australia, Japan etc. CAPATILIST competition amongst the nations drives down the cost of the goods, and thus, wages in the factories is driven down, to maximize the little profit there is. It gets messy with commodities like oil, and coal, and steel, timber, technology, cars. These shirts may not necessarily be built by children, you missed the metaphor. You see, It is made by labor in general. Somebody that is very poor and very fragile made these things so that I could enjoy them, being a macro capitalist by the society I'm in, (though a micro communist at the home front). Anyway, moving. on.
How can you compare slave drivers to grocery stores and fast food chains? I don't see the connection. I underline 'all the smut that you hate' because this implies that we all hate all those things you listed. When in reality you hate them and we don't have any problem with it all. And what's with this "owns us all" crap? Walmart doesnt own me, it doesnt control what I do. Buying groceries does not make me some corporation's bitch.
Though its not likely too many fast food workers and the like are subjugated to HEAVY labor, they are often subjugated to high amounts of mental stress and alienation. (Marx argues that alienation in capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist) societies is due to the fact that in work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_%28economics%29) we each contribute to the common wealth, but can only express this fundamentally social aspect of ourselves through a production system that is not social but privately owned, for which we function as instruments, not as social beings ) And its doesn't feel good to be treated like a servant for hungry people. Or just greedy people for that matter. *sobs* Your right WalMart doesn't own you, personally. And yet you buy a product from wal mart. drawn in by there LOW LOW prices. And there bargain deals, being forced to look for cheap alternatives because of a tight budget brought on because of competition...you shop for what you can afford. Walmart is affordable. And thus, it owns you. And when you buy a product. You support labor. You support people of all nations, hard, alienating, and gain less work. Even your own.
If you don't want to be an oppressor, stop buying things. If you do not want to feed the machine, stop buying things.
Its true, but like i said before, competition, makes things you don't support, the most affordable. And living in a capitalist society, I'm forced to deal with money.
The so-called "machine" is called economy, get used to it.
You don't have to be rude about it.
Now you're just rambling.
You don't have to make fun of me.
Let us take a look at another of your posts, shall we?
>>
You're one to talk, freedom fighter.
Sorry I guess? I suppose You want me to apologize?
Based on my points mentioned at the start of this post, I disagree. Communism discourages innovation and higher education by paying everyone equality.
Yes but see there, you said paying everyone equally. And communism would, well, make money obsolete.
Give me examples of capitalist countries that have not lasted very long.
Well, as far as time is concerned, humans havent lasted very long. So every country in our existence has not lasted long. And not to mention, capitalism is very young, formed in the 16-1700s.
For someone against class discrimination, you sound pretty bitter.
Very, you don't know the half of it.
Somebody should've done better in school. ; )
A regret I have to live with every day of my life. But I'm not actually doing bad. I'm a high school graduate. Graduated with 3.8 grade average, not bad at all. Public school and home schooled, best of both worlds I would say. I am very limited financially, but with some of the plans I'm drawing up, I could see myself going to a community college with enough financial freedom, and I suppose, sociology and civil engenerring both sound intriguing, and pretty much, sociology will be my major, with a minor in something like English, or History as a minor.
That's a very futile act in a world where everyone is paid equally regardless of education
Once again with the capitalist money concept, and all. Education would be something to strive for in a communist society. Then the more delegable for jobs you are. And with education free in a communist society, whatever you wanted to be, you could just be it. There would still need to be about a days worth of labor involved, but the rest of your week, would be yours to choose. And with everyone working together to produce the food and shelter and civil services, we could all live with a standard of living resembling a family in the united states that appropriates about 45k dollars yearly. seems good to me.
Valid enough point, I'll give you that, but the entire world doesn't want to share, and going by your communist beliefs, you can't force them to.
Well, I know of about 100 million people out there (communists socialists, and such) would be totally thrilled to be ride of the capitalist beast. And I know we could sway about 5 billion, if only our voice was loud enough.
I choose greed, because it isn't futile.
You we are on two different wave links. ~ peter griffen, family guy

[Sage]

Mmm, well, first I should start out by saying, I'm sorry if I actually offended you in any way. I'm quite an arrogant person, and things tend to slip from me when I think I'm right. Again, sorry if you took any offense to that. Some of the things I posted are, now that I think about it, unnecesary to the debate.

Either way, kudos to you on arguing back all of my points, it's been thought-provoking. In my opinion, the main stale-mate in all this is the concept of money.

Out of realizing that neither of us will be convinced, I give, you win. As nice as you make communism sound, it won't happen in the US, simply due to the common stereotypes and misconceptions. Thanks for an interesting debate, I'm off.

[kolte]

Well, I don't wish for you to concede! Stay! We have broken a debate, and now it is time to discuss, like civilized adults. No more character assignation, or things like that. Threw the bog we have been bound by a common disagreement! Together, people with differing views can objectively come to agreements, and finally, though very different, find the similarities in our arguments at their hearts, realizing that we actually have the same basic concept of right and wrong, and blurring our differences until we realize that we share the same thoughts, we just express it differently. We have different symbols for smiler meanings. We just have to break threw the bog...what do you say, stay and discuss a while, and together we can unite under a greater understanding of ourselves. Who knows, working together, we just might achieve something more powerful and fulfilling then working against each other in competition?

[Sage]

Is it just me or does your text get larger ever post? A bit off topic, yes, but anyhow..

Personally, I myself am not completely fond of the concept of currency, I prefer the very old days when people would trade things.

Let's say you have a hunter and a farmer. They both live in a world without currency. Every now and then, the hunter would kill a loose animal, skin its pelt, and make a shirt or something like that. Rather than selling it for money, he could trade it to the farmer for some food.

Money is but a useless object that has been given a numerical value. If we all used objects instead of currency however, we'd all get along more easily and the world would be more convenient. Money is, as I said, a useless object being traded for something of use. However, to me, it seems more logical to trade an object of use to someone else for an object of use to one's self.

[*Dissident*]

Communism is the pinnacle of the humanist state, the eventual peak of human progression in a sociological sense. It also requires the peak of human acceptance and generousity, which at this point, is lacking. someday, not in my life time, probably not in my grandchildren's lifetime, democratic communism will hopefully be the norm.

[kolte]

Communism is the pinnacle of the humanist state, the eventual peak of human progression in a sociological sense. It also requires the peak of human acceptance and generousity, which at this point, is lacking. someday, not in my life time, probably not in my grandchildren's lifetime, democratic communism will hopefully be the norm.

I think everyone would accept it if only they would learn about it. Its hard to grasp at points, but I think its one of the more important things to study in your life.

[Booman5]

The idea of communism is in itself not evil or bad, however it does have some flaws. If everyone has equal then where is the desire to achieve; if the person who works hard all day comes home to a house as large as a person who barely works, why work hard? I think that we should adapt some communist ideas however. Everyone should be given a home and a certain amount of food and they would have to work a certain amount to provide for the rest of the civilization (one day a week you have to work on a farm for example) however I think you should be able to get and work for more.

[Mannequin]

I'm not going to bother reading through 5 pages, but why would anyone WANT to be equivalent to others when no one is equivalent to others?

[kolte]

I'm not going to bother reading through 5 pages, but why would anyone WANT to be equivalent to others when no one is equivalent to others?

Don't mean to sound blunt, but....what?